Inception demonstrates that the most powerful storytelling often lies in what is left unanswered, as Christopher Nolan's deliberate ambiguity about whether Cobb is dreaming or awake transforms the film's central question into an irrelevant philosophical exploration of perception and reality, proving that emotional resonance and thematic depth matter more than plot resolution.
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Added:Inception was really Christopher Nolan's breakout film uh original film I should say and that's different than the Batman Begins and The Dark Knight that he made obviously because there's a big draw to the Batman IP and he had made profitable original films previously but this is the one I think that in 2010 really made his name as a more blockbuster ur filmmaker and still holds up brilliantly today. I think most people remember the first time they saw Inception. I think it's probably his best original film that has been massively commercially successful, especially as we head into The Odyssey and a lot of people's doubts about that. So, what are you guys original takes on Inception as we start off our Christopher Nolan arc?
>> Um, I mean, for me, I can even recall at the time, you know, I went to see this in the cinema. I couldn't get to see it on IMAX, but I did get to see it in a decent uh uh cinema setup. And um you know, obviously coming off the back of The Dark Knight, I mean, like Christopher Nolan probably was the hottest director in the world at at this time. It it it was like hard to think of a director that had had a run of movies that essentially gave you cart blanch to the same degree that [clears throat] Nolan had achieved. I'd probably say maybe David Fincher would be a decent analog, you know, highly stylized, very unique. Even he had Alien 3 in there, right? So you just had pretty much uh you know it might not have all been hits because obviously he had that like remake of Insomnia for for example uh which is by the way a super slept on movie that's really good but it made money and everything Christopher Nolan had touched had really turned to gold and so he got to realize a script that he'd been working on since he saw Paprika of course um you know for about eight years or And ultimately what he did was he went away and he reinvented the concept of the summer blockbuster which was the summer blockbuster didn't just have to be uh turn your brain off and enjoy a popcorn movie. No, it could be something a bit more. It could actually be something that has elements of philosophy and the nature of reality and a deep resonant emotional core. Oh, and an ensemble cast. Oh, and by the way, it's [ __ ] over two hours long. Um, and and you know, you can't really understate what it did uh in in terms of not only was it high concept, not only was it like quite intelligent, not only was it instantly iconic, it felt, you know, by the time I walked out of the cinema, it felt like the memes were already starting, you know, people were already referencing this film culturally. It nearly made a billion dollars as well on like a 150 million budget. So, so I mean it it what Christopher Nolan did here, this is why he gets to do whatever he wants in Hollywood. It's it's literally because of this film.
>> Yeah. If people don't know, this was actually the film for me that made that now cliched thing about Christopher Nolan that he's the only person who gets to make like art house auto films, but because they're just wildly successful, insane box office smashes, he's able to do it. I think there's even a thing as well along similar lines where I believe he married the woman who's also like the producer for all his films, which is like a clever way to obviously avoid the studio interfering because in theory that person's loyalty is lie more with you. But it does seem like he has cart wants to do whoever he wants at this point in time. So one of the things that's interesting as well is another thing people often note who are fans of Chris and I agree is the reason this was the movie that made me think this guy can't put a foot wrong. Even though my favorite film is the prestige which came out a few years earlier that was a little bit more niche and you know isn't the same sensation this film or Interstellar was. But if people don't know, there was a famous line that goes maybe Nolan was the great director, but his brother was the script writer for all. If you ever look it up for this film, Momento, The Prestige, the Dark Knight, all his best films, his brother script after this Dark Knight Rises, Interstellar, these were all his brother doing the script. This was a film where his brother didn't do the script. The joke being cut into did the script, but that's only half a joke. Like this film is just a mega original movie. And also, I'll tell you this as well. I saw The Prestige at the cinema and it was mega.
It's why it immediately became my favorite film. This also was an unbelievable first time watch at the cinema. Like genuinely one of the most mega cinema experiences you can have.
And actually, unlike we we're going to review Tennet after this, unlike some of his other films, I also think it's a film where you get it all the first time pretty much. There are little details you can ruminate on and check if there was a clue or have a theory about. But I think actually also this is why I think he he is able to make art auto movies that hit for the box office. He also somehow has captured the sensibility of like I think he has quite a plain straightforward style. Like you just get a lot of it just hits just it's just really really good. It reminds me of what like a great movie from the 70s ' 80s 90s was that was just the box office one the Godfather etc. You just get it all the first time. It's mega. So I also think it's just an excellent film.
>> Yeah. An an instant classic money.
>> Yeah. And this is going to kick off our Christopher Nolan arc here on foreplay.
So we are starting here with Inception.
Then we'll be talking about the Odyssey.
Uh after which we will talk about Tenant and finish up with the Prestige if you are an Elephant Premium subscriber.
After that we will be doing Following which is Christopher Nolan's first film in black and white. So, we reserve that for more deep cuts if you guys are subscribers. So, that'll complete our Christopher Nolan arc, but again, you want to see that, you'll have to sign up for the elephs feeds or watch it on lastnation.com.
Um, so with Inception, uh, we've talked, we just finished our anime arc, right? And Paprika was the last film that we did as part of that arc. And I think a lot of people have noticed the similarities between Inception and Paprika. And because we've pretty much watched them back to back now, it's pretty obvious that Christopher Nolan was heavily inspired and also directly took shots uh from Paprika to use in Inception. I will say that the plot is very different. The tone is very different. You know, they use the same dream enter dream machines collectively mechanics the way that in keeping with how Chris Lawren does his fies mod. This is also why he essentially took the idea of paprika and it worked better. He is a very straightforward director. Like by the way, I can tell this guy doesn't believe in God or anything supernatural. All of his films are like even Batman doesn't really have many comic elements, does it? It's Batman in the real world tech and believable things inside and CIA information. So in many ways, didn't he just take paprika and take out all the David Lynch way dream [ __ ] and just make it more like this is what an actual machine that you have to actually be hooked up to actually put under. So he did it in the Christopher Nolan way.
>> Absolutely.
>> And and this goes back to Christopher Nolan who is a brilliant director both visually in terms of planning out the movies but he what he does is he makes narrative puzzle boxes and oftenly often with Jonathan Nolan as well. His brother also did the TV series Westworld for example. So even without Christopher Nolan, he's doing many of >> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. very similar, you know, um very similar kind of style of scripts and stories. But the thing about Nolan is that he really wants to make something complicated with an amazing reveal, right? That twists your mind in an interesting way. And for me, that's what's fascinating about Nolan's work right from the very beginning. But also, I think what I love about Christopher Dolan is that he delivers insane set pieces and cold opens in basically all of his movies.
And by the way, what you think? This movie came out in 2010. The graphics hold up like a [ __ ] on this one.
They're still >> because he's so good at using practical effects also. Um, so stuff holds up. But I mean, what is really remarkable I think about every Christopher Nolan movie is you are drawn in instantly.
like he starts you in a crazy action sequence. Obviously, a lot of people will know this from the bank heist scene at the start of the Dark Knight. Um, where >> it feels like that even inspired this movie, Monty, cuz that scene everyone thinks is the best. And this whole movie is basically a a dream. That's the whole thing in it.
>> But the fact of the matter is is like you are instantly drawn into this world and everything is explained so neatly like it doesn't waste any time. And the fact that the concept of a dream within a dream is introduced in the opening sequence. And then also we are introduced to all of the technology. We are introduced to Leonardo DiCaprio and his crew and how they are basically heisting information out of people's minds. So you understand all of this instantly and the concepts are crystal clear right from the start.
>> This is complex [ __ ] Like it's very complicated. Funny is if you wrote it down, I feel like it'd be harder to understand than it is intuitively in the film.
>> Yeah. And he even does those scenes early on, Monty, that are almost like what they do in modern video games where the tutorials built into the game and they're telling you like, "Hey, chop down a tree." That's what all the early scenes are like where they're just explaining the dream and how it works and the but it's really easy to get, isn't it? You can just get it immediately.
>> Yeah. And I think that's one of Christopher Nolan's great gifts is that he can do these really outrageous concepts. And also must be said that Nolan also engages in concepts that are so complicated you would rarely see them outside of like an anime. Like he's very high concept. Um, but unlike most animes, he actually delivers on the premise, [clears throat] [laughter] >> which is, you know, I do think he shares a significant amount of overlap with with high concept animes, which is also, I think, probably why he [ __ ] so heavily with Paprika, even though he claims and has no inspiration. It's just a ludicrous take. And I know Richard, you can talk about ex like some of the shots like that they stole. I mean I mean like there there's there's about eight shots that I can think of off the top of my head that are lifted directly from that anime. You have to understand I watch I've seen Inception probably about tw 20 times and uh including two times in the cinema. Um and like I I've seen Paprika recently once and it's like it's just so staggering that not more people have like picked up on that. You you know what I mean? So, uh, but but to talk about Nolan's URA, right, it's, uh, if I had to sum up up in a word, I I would say it's it's just scale. Like the the the type of stories he tells are huge that they are so big and vast. And every setpiece he has is almost like a game of oneupsmanship with himself. like he's always looking to beat what he did in his last movie. Um, and and the the set pieces in this movie are ridiculous. And and I'll I'll say this, you know, when you Best will in the world when you do an animated film, and I have a lot of appreciation for the animated art form, uh, it is not the same as going out and having to conceive logistically how we can do these things. And so while the hallway fight or hallway chase in Paprika as it is is one thing, the hallway fight in this which was done in like a [ __ ] genius >> centriuge [ __ ] hallway that he actually constructed.
>> And by the way, it took Joseph Gordet like months of being spun in that hallway to get all of those shots. I've read interviews by him where he said it was crazy and how long it took to do that.
>> Yeah. Um, and it's like to to be able to project that in it, you know, onto a screen, to conceive of that, to execute that, that is crazy. I mean, like, whatever you want to say about Nolan, uh, wherever his movies are going to go and I and I do have a lot of trepidation about the Odyssey, spoiler, at the time of recording this, we haven't seen it yet. Um, uh, like he hasn't made a bad movie yet.
He hasn't met like all of his films.
>> His flaw is crazy in it.
>> Yeah. Like you his floor might be the best of all time. I mean like >> Yeah.
>> You know that that's that's the reality.
I mean who else is there? I've already referenced Finchure. You know, you would have to dig into the greats. You would have to get into Hitchcock. You know, you would have to get into Kurissawa to really find directors that have this unbelievably high floor like Nolan does.
And what's interesting about Nolan is like say he's doing this, but he's doing it in popcorn world. So yes, he's made movies that are very explicitly for him, but when Summer comes around, you know, it's like every two years he spits out another blockbuster. He's the director, by the way, that turned Oenheimimer, which is like the most 70s movie I've ever seen, you know, outside of the 70s, that wasn't made in the 70s, he turned that into a blockbuster. And somehow that all got folded in with Barbie for some, you know, the what what it's not just that his movies are genius on a technical level and very often on a conceptual level, it's that he also understands the mechanisms of how to sell his film. And even when they don't do as well as people would have liked or critics don't respect the movies to the degree, I think like the audience is out there where it's like how many of the directors do you put their name on and say it's a Nolan movie and people go, "Okay, I don't need to know anything about it.
I'm going just go and watch it because it's Christopher Nolan. There's not many direct I would say >> Spielberg was like that for a long time." Yeah, I mean still look disclosure day despite it being awful and we have a review of that on this channel. It still has done very good money.
>> Spielberg hasn't been in a box office draw for 20 years. I mean if you if you want you only have to look at his output of movies >> his movies haven't been good but Disclosure Day is making a lot of money.
That's not like a debatable point which is baffling to me but here we are. I would say Deny.
>> I think it's more about the topic than it is about the director at this point because everyone's got [ __ ] alien fever right now.
>> But I I think Villov is probably one that's approaching that point, especially after Dune.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And especially because now he's going to be directing a James Bond movie as well.
Like he's definitely catapulting himself into that category.
>> But he's he's another director. I mean like villain of I like I'm going just say it. I don't think the Dune movies hold a candle to anything Christopher Nolan has done.
>> No. No.
>> And I and I think Villanov's best work is when he pairs it down and it's a sakario, you know.
>> You know, it's an incendes. It's it's it's that stuff, you know. It's like I think when he scales up, he loses what makes him an interesting director and what makes him good. Whereas Nolan works at scale. There's no other director that could have done Interstellar. There's like no like there's no other director >> another example of a film where doesn't it have the same feeling in Inception where twothirds of the way through you're like Jesus when does this roller coaster end? And then the third act still just like get ready where it's going even further cuz in this movie right it's already dope when you see the idea they've already been into a dream or two. You realize the danger is inherent. So they do the first part of the mission where they go in and they get the guy. Then they go deeper down.
Mate, when they hit the third level where it's that like James Bond snow scheme where you know it's almost like you're in Metal Gear Solid. You already LIKE JESUS HOW MUCH STRONGEST IN THIS MOVIE and he's still going. I think the only part that doesn't hold up is I don't think he's that good when they go in the limbo at the end. I think that's a bit like eh whatever. But you you'd forgive it mate because he's already essentially done like three layers of [ __ ] which is like holy [ __ ] And he's nailed it like we said. I also think I actually wrote it down here. One of the other things he does a really good job with is he clearly understands the language of cinema and how to use tropes. One thing I love about Christopher Nolan, he's not doing any I subverted your explan. He's just using tropes effectively. Like I wrote down all the different ways he increases the tension in this film. Listen when I list them all. So you have even though you already know that James already can be dangerous because you can get caught and you can be trapped somewhere and you incapacitate. No, no. He makes it so that for the final missing, which remember has to be done because the cop guy is on a plane to the US and if he doesn't arrive and complete it, the ZTO guy is not going to make the calls. He's not going to get in the country. So there's one thing. Then he's got the detail that the he's only got the time of the flight to do it all. Then because Silto starts dying now that pulls the clock even further forwards because now you do die in this thing because you'll go into limbo and you'll get caught. You don't wake up in the same way because they had to take the sedatives. Then on top of that, because the time frame is pushed forwards, now Tom Hardy only has an hour to get the shower Killian Murphy instead of the whole day to do it all.
Then in the background of it all, he already set up that his wife is inside of his mind knowing everything he knows and sort of chased him down. Bro, this just this is masterful attention building because it makes it so that the crescendo is [ __ ] epic. It's why actually at the end it doesn't matter if it was a dream or not. It's still a [ __ ] straight fire experience, isn't it? It's [ __ ] mega. Also, by the way, notice one detail I added there that everyone misses about this film. You run down the cast. THIS IS HOW good this FILM IS. YOU YOURSELF ACCEPT IN your brain like, "Oh, that's Tom Hardy in disguise." THAT'S TOM BERINGER. THAT'S JUST TOM HARDY WENT OFF SCREEN AND TOM BINGER, LEGENDARY 80S actor came on and did his own mini cameo. That's [ __ ] dope, too. There's also so many performances that are just [ __ ] smashed out the park in this one, too.
Well, also to your point, Thorne, I think it's incredible how in this movie he manages to ratchet up that tension by introducing all these plot elements, but there's also simultaneously a reveal going on about his wife's past and what actually happened. And it was so hard to do this without it being confusing. But not only is it crystal clear like it it there's there's no way you could misunderstand this, but there's so many elements that are being juggled and yet they're presented in a sequence and in an order that both maintains tension and keeps you invested and reveals everything slowly without breaking your immersion. And I think that is what is really remarkable about this film. Um, and I think what's so hard about that is that if you're Christopher Dolan, obviously you know the twist, you know the reveal. So when you have seen the film 1 billion times while you're editing it, >> it's very easy to lose track of the individual pieces of information that are critical for a new viewer in order to put it together.
>> And yet he doesn't. he somehow is able to like put all these very small puzzle puzzle pieces together into a big picture that is instantly recognizable upon a first viewing. Um, but also, and this is also true of the Prestige, >> reward second viewings. It's like you get an incredible first experience, but then you get a deeply subtle second experience where you get to see how much is foreshadowed and really appreciate the craft even more. So that's what's great about many of Nolan's movies.
>> It's why he isn't despite the fact he's brilliant at doing great like interesting things part with it. He's not a twist director. Like every movie you can enjoy them all every time for me. Like I'm I'm sorry. There are films Six Sense Fight Club. I can't The second time's just not the same as the first time. The first time was its own mega experience. That's why if you ever spoil these films, you have ruined the movie for somewhere. Unfortunately, this film m you could even tell someone what happens in this. It's still mega.
>> Yeah. I I I I think as well though, I mean, like, so talking about like ratcheting up the the tension, it what's really clever about it is the right, we're going into people's dreams and and and obviously it introduces this textually into the film, which which is what I like. We're going into people's dreams. Oh, well, you can't die in a dream. Oh, no, no, no. We've we've worked out a set of rules where you actually can. And actually, not only can you die in a dream, there's something worse than dying in a dream. And you get clawed down into this horrific time dilated limbo where you'll be tortured by whatever is in your particular little box, you know, or maybe nothing. There's just nothing there. You're just walking around for decades.
>> Um, and so I really like that because again, it's like how can I create stakes in this movie, right? like in in this situation, how can I create the stakes as I write them down? And it's like, oh, we're going in a dream, so nothing matters. It's all a dream. You know, win, lose, who cares? So to to even have that is is super smart. And then obviously in the waking world, Leonardo DiCaprio's character, Cobb, his stakes unbelievably high. Like he's already [ __ ] up. He's wanted for murder, suspected murder of his [ __ ] misses.
He's gonna [ __ ] if he ever goes back to America, he's insta gibbed, but he's got kids, right? And >> there's even that clever part people probably missed the first time where he actually explains that he intentionally didn't look at his kids on the way out thinking like, but that obviously ends up haunting him because then he can't see his children's face. It's actually genius that that little textual aspect's very clever, >> right? And there's also I think Christopher Nolan, >> you know, he's also capable of putting this really solid emotional core within a movie, too. Um, and like I think Tenant may lack an emotional core, [laughter] right? Um, but I think if you look at this film in particular, the the actual motivations are very understandable from >> that's a weird to me. Tenn has a mega emotional core. It's all about that woman and her son.
>> And then in the end, it's all about Robert B. In the end, the entire film was about maybe her son was also one of the heroes in the movie saving the whole day who sacrificed himself at the end to redeem his father, Monty. I'm not going to get Jordan Peterson. It's pretty [ __ ] epic. It's archetypal, bro.
Anyway, that'll be another episode. Love that. [laughter] >> But but uh yeah, I mean I think um as well like you know anchoring stuff, anchoring these big concepts to emotional cause is like yeah it is it is very Christopher Nolan. I mean, even if you want to talk about like right his uh Batman trilogy, right, which like superhero movies up until like before Nolan gets his hands on them are pretty much considered like I mean it's the ultimate in frivolity, you know, they are they were I mean when was when was Batman begins? Like when when did that >> 2005 2005? So think about what we'd had coming out of the '9s and the early 90s and in that pre >> well yeah I mean basically before this guys if you're looking in in the immediate years prior you're talking about Sam Ramy Spider-Man and then the original uh uh X-Men trilogy mostly right those are the big ones. X-Men 2 still bangs by by the way. It it you know >> I mean the first two Spider-Man movies from San Ramy are good.
>> Yeah. Yeah. uh you know, but I mean up until that point they were very like it's like I say they were very they were very frivolous and very silly and people couldn't quite balance the tonal in congruence of um we're running around in these very silly costumes. Uh but we want to have these like big emotional issues but we're also meant to be popcorn entertainment. You look at the Batman trilogy and it's like from from the moment that trilogy starts where Batman begins, you really understand like you know what Christian Bale is about like why his version of Bruce Wayne operates the way it that it does. All of the elements around him.
Gotham feels very fleshed out and real and not silly like Tim Burton's Gotham was. Think of the gravitas that [ __ ] um Michael Kane brought to Arthur who would have been um Alfred sorry who obviously in every other film that's where you put the stupid gags is with that character he brought gravitas to that people genuinely in that third film cry that that story line gets to people that one at the end where don't say goodbye all that yeah of course >> yeah yeah yeah so I mean and also I mean this was this was really the kickoff of like the gritty real versions of franchises right because casino role came out after this which did the same thing basically to Bond. Uh, but this is where, you know, this is it became kind of a disease where we couldn't have fun anymore cuz everything had to be gritty and realistic, which >> it's exactly the same thing that happened in comics with Alan Moore Monty. The joke is because of Watchmen and V. Fendetta, then everyone just for 10 years spent their premise. Yeah. My premise also is what if it was real?
It's like, yeah, but it's a fantasy medium like that's cool as a one-off and to contrast, but you don't want it audi to be that. Yeah. Absolutely.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So it but you know all of his movies there is an emotional uh core that that you can really attach yourself to and you know I I I think for for what is meant to be just a a summer blockbuster popcorn movie it it is quite emotionally affecting. There's a lot like happening here which is like you know like I I I think Leonardo DiCaprio does knock this out the park. Like I I think he's >> contended for his best film. I I mean I'm not a massive DiCaprio fan. Not not like a massive massive fan, but like when when he started to really evolve his craft and like start taking it like super super seriously. Um which, you know, it's probably it's probably the departed.
It's probably right about there cuz he did that [ __ ] stupid aviator movie as well with the Howard >> Hugh. I hate that movie. I like it.
Right. [laughter] So you you've got you've got you know so probably >> the first DiCaprio film. No the So I like him when he was a kid in What's Eating Gilbert Grape? Um but the first film I saw him as an adult where I actually enjoyed his performance I think was Catch Me If You Can >> right which you know look he he was coming off the back of Gangs in New York but I don't think he was the finished article back then. Well, he I actually dislike his performance in basically every Scorsese movie. [laughter] >> Um, yeah, I wouldn't go that far. I think that's a crazy take, honestly. But I but but but I think like coming off the back of The Departed where like we you know, we we've talked about this multiple times on on the show, we've got a bit of a soft spot for The Departed, even though we know it's sort of a bad film and doesn't really need to exist in any way, shape, or form. But but after that, this it it's like this is when he starts really like ratcheting up um you know for for me like his actual serious acting period. You know he did Shutter Island the same year as Inception and then he goes on to do Django Unchained, Wolf of Wall Street, The Revenant like for for me I mean you could make an >> kill island too. It's also very good in it. That's a good companion piece to this film. If you like this, you all of a sudden you like Short Island.
>> I I I I think I think basically 2010 is the year like DiCaprio arrives as an actor. And I think it's in no small part to the fact and by the way lots of actors have said this. They said once you've worked with Christopher Nolan, it's very hard to go and work with another like director because he apparently he's like very very good.
what he so what he does h how he approaches working with actors is he will give them lots of like prep and lots of like notes in rehearsal and table reads and stuff and generally when it comes to the the the day and they record the scene he might do two or three takes but he's his sensibility is to go with the first one it's always to go with the first take and he does the extra he does the extra takes to make the actors feel comfortable But but generally Christopher Nolan's of the opinion that you put the prep work in and then the first take will be fine.
Which is kind of interesting because Clint Eastwood is another director that has that approach. And Christopher Nolan, you know, hey, if we've got to do a the takes to get it right, he will.
He's very meticulous, but ultimately, you know, a lot of actors have said that like he he's just so good at prepping you to be in the right space before the scene, you know, and every and on set everything is perfect. Like every like everybody like apparently all like he's got a crew he uses because a lot of the stuff he does is shot in IMAX. So there's a specificity about the technical aspects, the lighting, the rigs, all of this stuff, type of camera that they use. And so obviously like he's got his own crew now that he's used on multiple movies. And everyone just knows when to shut the [ __ ] up on set, when to be in the right place, when to light the scene, when to do this, when, you know, and apparently just working on a Christopher Nolan set is like it's just god tier for actors. you can literally turn up. He's already talked to you about what he wants and very rarely he'll give a note. Um I'm trying to think there was a really good story from one actor and I can't remember who the [ __ ] it was but where it was just that he said he he he just said basically like okay that was good but I need you to understand that like this for you this is what it's going to be catastrophic. So in a word more and that's it. That's that's the director's not just more and you you dial it up and you nail the scene and that's that you're out in two. So I think like a lot of people have a very good memory of working with Christopher Nolan and I think probably he helped sculpt DiCaprio.
>> Oh, I think it's Gary Oldman you're talking about cuz when I search it he says something like he [clears throat] said to Gary Oldman there's more at stake. I'm assuming he's played like officer Commissioner Gordon.
>> Yeah. Commissioner Gordon. Yeah. Yeah.
>> He's obviously killed that role too, didn't he?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, which by the way I'm not a massive Gary Oldman fan. uh in in particular, but I but I think >> I don't know. I I think one of the things that I like about Christopher Nolan is he always gets the best out of his casts. Like he's had some he he has mega mega casts obviously, but like let's be real, Joseph Gordon Levit, we've sold with you. I always give the example this one of the moments that also made me realize Nolan was going to be like potentially the goat director is in my favorite film, The Prestige. At the time that film was made, if you would have told the Chuds now and putting Scarlet Johansson in it, they'd go, "Oh, oh, she's really good in that film." For whatever, however Nolan saw her and crafted her, you would never know that she'd do silly random mass movies and box popcorn movies and super.
She's just very good in that film. I also think, yeah, he gets the best out of almost everyone he's worked with, mate. Even people you might not consider a traditionally good actor. I also like as well, I mean, he didn't shy away from using actors in this because one of the things I really like about Inception is it it feels global like like there's this >> there's this implication that these people are doing this all over the world. They're a secret [ __ ] organization.
Um and and and it, you know, jet setting stuff as we'll get to on the tenant episode. Chris Christopher Nolan has to make a Bond movie. He has to be the guy who reboot Bond.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Right.
>> But wait, you know why that didn't happen, right, Richard?
>> Why? Why is that?
>> So, after uh Tenant, he was actually approached to direct a Bond film.
>> Makes sense.
>> But obviously uh but Barbara Broccley, the producer, always requires final cut of Bond films. So, he wouldn't give away final cut. And so he he would never now that might change in the future, but as of right now, Deny Villanuv is actually going to be doing the new Bond movie. So maybe he will someday down the road.
>> Mad respect, like he he's the game against the system and he wants to final his heart. He's done it. Fair play. Get away with it.
>> But truly like that is the story is that he actually was the one who walked away because he couldn't get Final Cut on a Bond movie. But now that the rights have been entirely sold to Amazon, who knows what will happen in the future. But that's why it hasn't happened already.
Yeah. So I mean like in he using using Kenwata Anabi for example is like an insane choice for like again this is my this is my summer Hollywood blockbuster and I'm going to get two actors cuz it's um Marian Cotiard as well uh who's obviously French. I'm I'm going to get two actors that have very strong accent and I'm going to put them in a Hollywood movie. Now, by the way, Ken Watanabi is a [ __ ] G >> in this film.
>> Well, he he was, to be fair, he was coming off The Last Samurai, so it's not like American audience didn't know him.
>> No, but it's true. He does have that very stereotypical Japanese accent, though, didn't he?
>> I mean, that was that was his that was his obviously his [ __ ] Hollywood debut, right? Um, but he I can't remember what he was famous for in in Japan. It was it might have been ah there was some there was some there was some TV show I think. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Um because I think it was bit it was like it might have been a noaga thing you know like one of those serals about like samurai thing. Anyway, I think that's how he ended up doing the last samurai but whatever. So that was his Hollywood debut and then like obviously Nolan picked him up. He's he got a a small part in Batman Begins.
He's in a bunch of like good stuff. He he worked with Clint Eastwood, funnily enough, in Letters uh from Ewima. And then obviously all of a sudden he's just in the Godzilla movies. He's in all of that stuff. All the iconic meme lines.
But it it it's crazy to take this guy and say we're going to give him an a huge part in a a a summer Hollywood blockbuster because look, we know what American audiences are like. Like someone will be speaking perfect fluent English with a slight accent and they'll be squint what >> you >> by the way the worst example from in sports people remember presumably English or American were going Yanco I can't even understand what you say it's like bro that isn't even a harsh accent like he's got a fairly neutral like for a bul person >> he just sounds like I drago [laughter] it >> I know what you mean if it's just a hair off they do just I can't [ __ ] like oh come on >> but but but what it what it what it did I I thought quite sensibly was it did create again this sense of scale that you know like how would how would Leonardo DiCaprio meet a French woman well of course he's traveling all over the world isn't he so why not and you know obviously you can see the Parisian sensibilities in lots of the cities that he builds obviously it was a you know there's all this little nice little subtextual stuff and obviously you know when you think about like high-powered businessmen I obviously we've got the American Japanese thing going on again subtextually that's that's a classic, right? Um so yeah, it's like that there's just all these like nice little choices that like really help flesh out the movie without having to explicitly say or do any.
By the way, I actually want to know cuz here's what's funny. This is one of those films that I think is brilliant and it is a mega film experience. I think it's a really it's one of the best films of all time in my opinion but it does have like what I think it's also quite interesting because it simultaneously has actually I think also quite striking flaws like I said I think the limbo part I I told you it's my take on a lot of Chris films a lot of his third acts often don't land in the same way as the first other parts do and build up etc quite famous for that obviously >> yeah I also think that's another problem that film has it is I mean the other problem is that's another problem with doing things at scale Richard in the same reason why a lot of TV shows that we all love are really hard to do the last episode is because they're not supposed to end. They're supposed to be eternally ongoing things where you get a oneh hour slice of it each. They're not supposed to end on a big conclusion. So, it's really hard to end these films.
He's making them so [ __ ] annoy. It's like how do you make the ending satisfied and wrap everything else up?
Cuz in this movie, I actually think it sort of gets to cheat because actually, isn't one of the most famous things about this movie that you can discuss the ending to death, can't you? And in fact, probably the best part about it is that it isn't conclusively answered. You can find theories and come up with different million angles as to why it's this that and the other. Also, I've got another thing I actually want to throw to Monty because I want to see what he thinks about this. I actually made a video on my side channel about this a few years ago. One downside of this film. This is where I came up with that famous thing I've done many times.
Thorin's directors cut if Thorin got to EDIT THE MOVIE. WHEN I WAS WATCHING this movie, Monty, I actually thought the first time I watched it in the cinema, oh [ __ ] since unlike a lot of people here, I'm actually versed in the classics. I think I've guessed where this is going. I know what the end of the movie is going to be and it wasn't.
And I was actually, even though the ending is pretty good, I was actually let down because here's why, Monty.
>> When in this film, the character played by Ellen Paige, that was her name at the time. That was who filmed the film. I'm not in any way making a comment on the one person. That's who filmed the film at the time. I'm not going to say Tesla is [ __ ] Bosnian or what Croatia, whatever people say. At the time, he lived in Serbia, I believe. So, I'm being historically accurate. in the film right Monty when it's revealed her name is Ariadne and her job is to build mazes and the whole film seemingly is about Leonard DiCaprio's character Cobb is trapped within dreams and he's trying to get out to the real world I thought oh my god I can see where this is going because if you don't know Ariadne is the character in thesis and the minotaur who is the princess who helps give him that like whatever piece I think it's a red piece of gold or something that leads him out of the the the MAZE SO I THOUGHT OH THAT'S WHAT'S GOING be at the end of the movie. Here's what it's going to be.
He was in a dream and actually some I even thought it could even be his daughter. His daughter grows up to be like him with his skills and she's gone into the dream world to play this character to lead him out of the that was actually it turned out for whatever reason. Maybe he left it just in there as an influence that had nothing to do with it. I was just coincidental or something. I don't even really get like why they'll forget. I genuinely thought that was going to happen. I thought this is going to be the sickest ending ever.
Well, also I feel like, you know, they didn't really utilize the Greek mythology effectively because obviously the next question is is who's the Minotaur and right? And I guess it's Maul, his his wife maybe, >> but it's not really clear that she is helping him escape from that. Like I don't I'm not saying the the metaphor needs to be one for one, but it would have been nice for it to have a little more depth, >> you know? I I mean, look, I I think the one of the things, okay, so again, I'll I'll go back and I'll reference True Detective. This is my little go-to because I think it's a I think it's a masterclass in screenwriting.
Um, all right. There there there is a period of time when you are watching that first season where all of your instincts are pulling you towards oh my god like right so first of all there's like all these little scenes like uh Woody Harlson's daughter assembles her dolls into a scene that looks suspiciously you know like something very unsavory that she couldn't possibly have known about. And then also the line of questioning from the police is like we got this photo. This is Russ Cole in the crowd at one of the victims and you're like there's no way they're going to do this. There's no way it's going to be Rus Cole's the bad guy. There's no way they couldn't possibly the audacity of it all. No, of course not. That would be that would be cheap as [ __ ] That would have actually been garbage. Even though at the time your heart's racing and you think you want it. You think you want the twist. You want to be fooled and deceived. No, it's just a very simple story and it's telling a story that is intricate but beautiful in its simplicity, you know. So, it's like the with this I felt the same thing on the first watch. I can remember it going, "Oh my god, it obviously the twist is going to be he's in the dream. He's going to be stuck there forever. He's going to be dead, but he's not going to care." very much like how Shut Island ends. That actually does fulfill the thing you're talking about that sort of does go to the obvious twist ENDING OF OH, IT WAS IT WAS MAD ALL ALONG. HE HE WAS ONE OF the patient. Yeah, of course.
But what I like that for don't give a [ __ ] >> What what I what I like about this is so the whole thing with the totem which we you know we'll talk about in a bit.
>> Want to get into that for sure.
>> Yeah. Yeah. The the the the by the end the story is quite simple in the sense that it no longer matters.
>> Yes.
>> Right. That's the key thing. He's gone on the journey. He's arrived at the final destination and it no longer matters. There's no internal struggle.
There's no angst. He has actually got to the point where he wants to be. And there's no need for a twist ending or a rugpull. It's >> you could argue even if he is still in the dream, Richard, then he's accepted that he's fine just being in the dream.
Well, also they already set up the fact that the reason why his why Mal died was because she was okay with basically being in limbo forever, right? And the concept is that if he's getting what he wants, does it is there a difference?
Because the perceived reality is already just [ __ ] up in this in this movie anyway, right? It's it's Matrixesque in that >> pure forum bit, Monty, when this came out. I mean, every forum you went on, everyone had a theory about he's he's in the gym. And at the end, the totem doesn't stop spinning, but he doesn't look at it. And it's like, guys, >> but the point the point is also by not looking at it, he's showing he doesn't care, >> right?
>> It's not it actually becomes not important to him. Remember, every other time he uses the totem, he's like, is it real? Is it not? On that one, he just sort of like he's almost wandered off anyway. Who gives a [ __ ] if it comes on or not? If in many ways, maybe I don't even want to know. Maybe I just let that [ __ ] go and I'm off. Yeah, but I mean I think that's the beauty of the end of this movie. Uh we've talked about people's like whackass takes on [ __ ] like with Bladeunner and them caring whether Decard is a replicant or not.
It's similar. Like who who gives a [ __ ] That's not the point.
>> The point is not the reality. The point is the theme that he has changed and it's about his own personal desires at that point in time and also questioning the nature of reality and fantasy in the first place. Why do we consider one to be more real than the other? When we're in dreams at night, we're not questioning most of the time whether it is real, right? Does that make the experience less real? I mean, that's the question Paprika asks as well. And I think that's what's fundamentally interesting here. Not is it literally true whether he's still in the dream or not. I think that's quite boring. And I'll give you another example. Right?
Here's why it's not only not as important what you come to look come to your own conclusion. I think that's fun and it makes for also rewards re-watching and trying other ideas out.
But the reason why it actually doesn't matter is because some of these things can also be explained by like the nature of complicated stories. So I'll give you two examples. One, people did love to do that one Richard talking about where they were like well look if you see actually a millisecond before he cuts the screen it's about to fall you are aware every single top that's ever filmed would fall eventually in real life. Like that's already like a matrixes film artificial effect to make it go on. Well, first of all, unless he actually shows it drop, that's just what would happen anyway.
>> Then do the audio, the audio one where it's like, no, but if you listen carefully, you can hear it fall in the title sequence.
>> Yeah. And then here's another one. As said, obviously one of the main ones that spawned all these theories, which is a very valid point, is the subplot about his wife, which is clearly intended to set up the idea this could be a dream. At least we have to think that's possible. The one of the key details is when he explains the rules of using the totems, he explains you have to have a totem. only you know that's specific to you and you only use it for and yes obviously his totem wasn't the spinning top that was his wife's totem so by taking her totem he's actually broken a fundamental rule right whereas his totem should be the wedding ring right here's the problem with that guys if you think about the movie I don't think I'm somehow belaboring the point when I say THIS HE IS A PERSON WHO BREAKS EVERY ONE OF HIS RULES CONSTANTLY he also tells you don't build places you want oh except I've built a whole secret like mind palace of all my regrets and things I need to go back and change also I'll never address certain other if anything that character is totally in keeping that he'd have already broken those rules too mate and that he'd be just using so at this point you could argue in that scenario he maybe he's even forgotten his own rule who the [ __ ] knows that's one of the good things about this movie is all all interpretations feel believable >> I mean look what if right his kids aren't even real you know like how how how how far out there do you want to get do you want to get right what if the kids were just an invention of him and his wife down there in the [ __ ] up sexy limbo they were having right they've got no faces, you know what I mean? So, it's like he it but but also it creates this pseudo narrative that he has to get back to.
So, there's always an excuse to pull himself. But, you can come up with a million theories on this.
>> It also justifies his actions because >> it makes his actions it makes his actions understandable to other people.
Even though what he's doing, by the way, is completely off the reservation, including dragging multiple people in this seditive to where if they die, >> you know, they just follow like as you say in that scene where he actually explains to them when Satos died like, "Oh no, by the way, you are going to die in this one cuz we're all mad under these things." And also, by the way, we've got like even less time to DO IT. THEY ALL basically tell you to sort of tell him like, "What the fuck?"
Because yeah, you're right, Monty.
essentially if his if his children aren't real and this isn't his only chance to get to them, isn't he actually a massive piece of [ __ ] for doing that to other people? Like piece of [ __ ] no matter what. Why Why is it justifiable for him to sacrifice like five people for his own kids? That's why you have to accept it textually because okay so when you write a story okay the that yes stakes of course that right but also motivations and and and and and rationalizations these are all important aspects of a character. So if he was just doing this over some [ __ ] he imagined like the the movie's the movie's whack. It's just crazily amount of >> it's whack anyway. Richard, he's he literally Okay, so let me explain why the concept is whack and why Dom is a piece of [ __ ] So I don't believe for a second that he had no concept that this really highprofile target would actually have undergone training in order to have >> he himself sells that service.
>> Yes, exactly. He himself sells that service. So like he's like how could we possibly have known? And also wouldn't he have checked himself? Wouldn't Joseph Gordon Levit's character like check that? It's complete. The premise is ridiculous, right? So, here's what I assume. He knew it was a possibility. He hid the fact that it was a possibility.
Went in there anyway, and then was like, "Lol, guys. Uh, sorry. You might actually just be in your own subconscious forever now." I mean, and and it's not like, again, it's not like the the result of him not doing this is his children die. That's not what's going to happen. His It's just he can't see his kids. That's and also never explain why they can't just leave America.
>> There's a lot of questions.
>> We just accept that conceit.
>> Here's the other thing about Christopher Nolan movies.
>> I really appreciate this because obviously in any kind of time travel high concept, there's going to be a million plot holes, right?
>> And the thing about Christopher Nolan movies is he explains enough and it goes quickly enough that you don't actually think about the plot holes.
>> Oh, no. Exactly.
>> But here's here's a fun one in this one.
So when they're two layers deep in the dream, why do they require the machines inside a dream?
Like you need the machines to enter the dream in real life, but why would you need to do that within a dream itself >> to enter the next lay layer of the dream? Like it doesn't make any sense.
Don't think about that.
>> Yeah. Don't get into the whole plot hole thing cuz look, one thing I admire about Christopher Nolan is whenever he does any of these movies that have these like insane premises like a lot of it is rooted as Duncan has pointed out in a very scientific and meticulous approach, but if he ever needs to just >> lizle dizzle his way out of it, he just says >> I appreciate that it is a movie and and look at the end >> when you need the machines. I will say that the idea of them doing this coordinated kick through the levels of the dream and the extraordinary cinematography that happens with like the van falling and the time dilation is so [ __ ] cool that I just don't care.
But also at the same time, you really have to ask yourself the question why if they are inside a dream and they put the guy to sleep in the dream, why do they need the machine to go to the next level? Couldn't they just be like imagine themselves in the next level or use a different device?
Surely that's also another thing we just accept in this movie. Like by that logic money, why do they need cars? Why don't just fly?
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> But but again, this is why in a weird way and Nolan simultaneously manages to be very visionary and imaginative but also quite limited to reality because actually I don't think he even thinks that. He thinks well in a dream you have to still walk to get there. Why would you Christopher? Like but again like it's just how he does [ __ ] in it.
I mean, obviously you can make an argument to to be like, >> you know, you you've got to have some sort of like parameters on what feels real. I mean, like they get a very good, you know, >> but but the guy the guy they're going into the secondary dream with is already knocked out in the dream. So, they could use lit like what is the device doing?
It's not a physical device giving you chemicals like in the real world or hooking you guys up together, right?
Anyway, it doesn't make sense. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah. I mean, look, there's loads of stuff like that in in in this movie in in a ton of his movies, but I'm I'm like Duncan. Like, I don't give a [ __ ] I'm not I'm not here to meticulously weave.
>> But then I'll set this up now. This is why when we get to the tenant review, I don't want to hear any of those complaints because that's an entire movie about just let it go. Just enjoy the don't keep thinking. But wait, is he supposed to be backwards? How if you do that, you'll never be able to enjoy a second. My my point about making these nitpicks is that you don't you never think about this [ __ ] while you're watching the movie. And that's like his superpower is that other directors the pacing would be off so you'd have time to think about it or there'd be some detail. But he what he does is he explains just enough of really cool [ __ ] like do you remember how you got here?
That's how you know it's a dream. The totem idea is awesome by the way that everybody would have to have their own thing to know whether it's a dream or not. And so because he explains enough and you're he's like he's got your you focused on the shiny thing over here.
You never actually think about all the other stupid [ __ ] that's going on.
You just accept it. You just roll with it. Which is >> by the way there's an obvious metaphor here also for what him and his wife have done which is why they're in the predicament they are which is just psychedelics. Like the problem I always think when people take psychedelics, it's the same actually with any like supernatural phenomenon is everyone who goes into it when they get their feet wet it's like I WANT THE EXPERIENCE JUST GIVE ME I WANT IT TO BE INSANE AND KNOW IT'S OVER TOP AND WHAT happen is if you don't get that you're going to go that didn't work and the joke of psychedelics is double the doors keep double the doors eventually you will go somewhere the problem becomes because you haven't had the experience yet you're getting like a faximile or like a movie version of it'll be like cartoons if you ever do get the experience and it is full [ __ ] on you might then go holy [ __ ] I wish going to put turn the volume down that and actually if no one knows one of the most disturbing things about psychedelics is even though the the newbies just trying to launch as it were and get into the world it's that if you go deep enough you actually will have experiences that where you come out I always joke that if you actually look at my career unfortunately I talk loads of psychedelics about a year or two before essentially in the movie of my career the entire plot goes mental and I become super famous and 10 times more wealthy and I get all my dreams come true and part of me will never know am I still zonked out in a [ __ ] hotel floor in like 2008 in Amsterdam where I took an insane amount of mushrooms that were of a very specific strain that came from South America that they even said don't take even half of this and I went [ __ ] y'all. I'm passing off to Interzone [ __ ] I'll never really know if I'm still there, mate. For all I know, the time dilation is really nuts on this one. So like that is actually WHAT THEY EXPERIENCE AND THAT'S WHY I CAN TOTALLY [ __ ] with the whole dream thing. They went so deep and they went so far off that by the end like actually it's so even though they make the V for this in a weird way, he's not that far off that himself, mate. He's just he's totally lost touch of reality. It's also why you're able to build in the idea it's a dream because in its own way there's a million people. Think about Michael Kane's character. Just come back to reality. His children told him on the phone again. By the way, you also can just call them anytime on the phone. You are making it like you saw him all those years ago. I don't even know what THEY LOOK LIKE. YOU TALKED TO HIM ON THE PHONE. BY THE WAY, ALSO we don't need to get into this because it's 2010. Is it not already a FaceTime app, mate? Can you not see the But again, you're right.
The beauty of this film is you never think this [ __ ] because you're too busy watching the straight fire movie. And for a movie that's like [laughter] two and a half hours long, you never have a moment to sit around wanking over this [ __ ] You're just enjoying what's happening next, mate. The pace is really nice.
>> I mean, on on the psychedelic point as well, it's kind of interesting cuz much like Paprika, uh there's no reference anywhere on the internet that Christopher Nolan's been, you know, dropping some [ __ ] heavy [ __ ] And I probably I'm I'm going to assume he hasn't even though he's made these insane movie. I mean like you know Interstellar going into the tesseract at the end is like you know >> super psychedelic idea.
>> Yeah like you know we've all been inside the tesseract.
>> I also love the people on that ONE BUT HOW WOULD THAT WORK? STOP.
>> STOP. Don't think about that. It's not necessary. Enjoy. Just enjoy it.
>> Exactly. But uh but um I mean like uh one of the things that is like very hard like when you've done the he like the heavy [ __ ] the real heavy [ __ ] I'm not talking about a party trip of acid. I'm not talking >> even his idea that there's a planet you go to where time lasts way shorter than what are you talking about bro? That's pure psychedelics.
you know, but when you've done the real [ __ ] mad stuff, like there is this not like things feel almost intangible for a while when you get back like you are I've you know I've talked about this before there is this weird bit where it's like that felt so [ __ ] real just now like this >> reality feels less real.
>> Yeah, reality feels less real. Exactly.
like the it it dials it down >> and um obviously you can imagine like what what is the ultimate [ __ ] trip like super strong [ __ ] lucid dreams.
They're [ __ ] they're unreal. And by the way, you get those appropo of nothing for free every time you close your eyes when you go to bed. And I'm sure we've all had a dream where we've woke up in the morning and been like, >> "Was that real? I was I was just there.
I was just talking to that person."
>> Well, that that's what I said in in the Paprika episode, too. I mean that's the human creative genius. It's incredible that every person can create worlds like this.
>> Yeah.
>> Which and if you ever doubt your own potential as a person like you dream you could do it in your dreams.
>> It's also why by the way you have to think that Satoshi Khan was influenced by people like Young and Freud et because the other part that they do in this movie explicitly is the idea that even though you might be the one generating the dream, it doesn't mean it's the you of your ego and what you're feeling wanting. Now, maybe like when the like when the dreamer awakens inside Inception, maybe essentially your subconscious then programs people against you and it's attacking you or uses your ex-lover as a person who's like the antagonist haunting you in the f. That's also a brilliant idea too. I mean, what a great conceit for the film that is.
>> Yeah, for sure. So, I mean I mean like um you know, all the individual elements of this movie are are like such like like you said, iconic is definitely the the word. Um, I want to talk about the Han Zimmer score if we can cuz I I want to say I don't know if this is true, but it kind of felt that like this brought Han Zimmer back a little bit. Again, I have no idea if that's accurate or like how how much he was doing before then, but I know I know he won No, he got nominated for an Oscar for it, right?
But prior to that, it was what, like Gladiator?
Like what else? What else was he doing?
>> Pirates of the Caribbean. I mean, he was huge in Pirates of the Caribbean. That's a very famous score that he did before this film.
>> Yeah.
>> Like right before it.
>> But but I I I feel like, you know, put it this way. He's definitely done some hacky stuff. You know how I feel about the Doom soundtrack. Um but I I I think the [ __ ] score for this >> is one of the best like in modern cinematic history. like >> the the the the way it builds and the [ __ ] like the the the uh song called what is it the the dream is collapsing that's like the that's like the mega one it's like it's [ __ ] crazy like the the the score for this is like so good and augments the movie like cuz you can feel the tension building in the song in the moment as it's building on the screen in the moment. It's like so synergistically perfect. Like I I'd probably struggle to think of like >> like out of all the movies from 2010 onwards, what has a better score than this?
>> Yeah. I mean it >> I mean by the way itself's got a pretty good score. Sure. Mandy's got a banger.
But you're right. It's up there. It's certainly up there as one of the absolute best of all time. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean this is like it's just [ __ ] insane how good it is. Also, as a correction, Han Zimmer did contribute heavily to Pirates of the Caribbean, but he wasn't credited, but it sounds he very heavily influenced. It was sounded exactly like him. Um, so >> I mean, this is like it's got so much going on like and >> like like for for someone that I I just assumed this is going to sound crazy like even back then cuz like Han Zimmer is like quite a famous person. He's been around for like what feels like forever.
And even though he's only like 70 years old now, I just assumed he was dead.
Like I didn't, you know, I didn't know.
Like when it was like soundtrack by Han Zimmer, I was like, "What the [ __ ] really?" And then obviously he's absolutely [ __ ] knocked out the park and then done a million hacky pieces of [ __ ] after this. But this like it's just so [ __ ] good. Uh it makes me sad that like you know he's ah he's just done some terrible movies.
>> He's done that thing where he's become like a parody of himself hasn't he? Cuz I know what you mean. Gladiator has won the all time soundtrack. I even thought he was pretty good on Black Hawk Down if anyone remembers. He did that one too.
Like he he used to be like the go-to guy. Absolutely.
>> Yeah. But that's what I mean.
>> You you criticized criticized him in our Dune episode as well, Richard.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but that's what I mean. It's like what what I I I think his collaborations with Chris again it's like Christopher Nolan getting the best out of people does feel to be a recurring theme because I think like obviously Hans did the Dark Knight stuff which you know not anything I'm going to listen to but I mean like I'll I'll say the Dark Knight Rises the [ __ ] Bane steam is [ __ ] unbelievable like like when when Bane is coming That bangs, that slaps, that's get that on your [ __ ] workout uh rotation if it's big. It's a big track. And then obviously like in Inception, Interstellar, he did the music for Dunk Kirk as well. They're all great. And then it's like it's the same guy who did Dune with the [ __ ] throat singing. So cheap. So pathetic with the the desert noise. Yeah. Yeah. So pathetic. He did Formula One, like you say, heavily involved in Pirates of the Caribbean.
It's like, oh my god, it's like there's two Zimmers, you know?
>> It It's so crazy. But his Christopher Nolan stuff is [ __ ] insanely good.
And I think this is the best. I think this is like since since Gladiator, this is this is easily handsome best score by a million miles.
>> I have a question then. Since I said it earlier, I do think this is just a mega film. It's one of the best experiences I've had. I've enjoyed all the rewatches. What do you think about that though? Because I do think it has to have some flaws. I don't think it's far from a perfect film. It's got plenty of things that are a little bit off or some weird >> throw some out there. Throw >> like I say, does it am I the only one where when I watch this film, I'm almost getting hyped every single level I go to. I learn about the dream. Oh, it's [ __ ] dope. He's put together, by the way, a fabulous ensemble cast of criminals with their own personalities and their own dynamics. He's got the whole thing where like all Chris Nolan films he doesn't start you at the beginning of the story. He starts a story that's already happened. Some things he's referred back to. You keep going down the levels. Like I say, when they get to that snow level, you're like this is the [ __ ] shitest movie. When they go to limbo, bro, they have built limbo. Like you say, Richard is like the ultimate bad trip. Like it's the nightmare. You get there. I'm thinking this is going to be like some either full crafting or it's like some pure nihilism of like, you know, the darkness of no GOD AND NOTHING. BRO, WHAT EVEN IS that limbo thing? That is just like I I find that part very uninspired. I think this is a bunch of old buildings and [ __ ] What >> I mean this this is >> that ran out of steam that bit, >> right? And and this is where I think you know you talk about Christopher Nolan's spirituality earlier and I think this is where his lack of spirituality really falters because the thing about Satoshi Conn is that Satoshi Conn may not have the techn like he doesn't create the cool puzzles right but what Satoshi Con does have is an insane grasp of human motivation and empathy and I think that's why the end of Paprika is so fundament fundamentally interesting because what what this could have been because he talks about the subconscious is it could have been the collective unconscious. It could have been a realm of mythology. And this is why I'm worried about the Odyssey by the way.
This is why I'm really worried about it because he's actually directly dealing with mythological concepts in the Odyssey and there's no escaping it because it is a fantastical story. You can make a realistic version of the Iliot, right? Troy kind of did that.
They got rid of all the gods. It it is impossible to do that with the Odyssey.
But the problem is is that his concept of the bottom of someone's mind is like the house they grew up in and an empty city. And it's it's kind of weird because these are all very upper level consciousness ideas. There is no psychedelia. There is no terror.
There is no fantastical creatures, right? And to me it it's really disappointing and it actually hollows out a lot of the message of the movie.
Whereas I feel that Paprika for instance ramps up into this point of >> people the deeper you go in Paprika it's people dealing with their own [ __ ] up psychology and think about how Paprika ends with all the dream sequences and stuff like imagine if in in limbo it'd been like that. Suddenly the ball character could become a thousand feet tall and grab you and you can't escape and it COULD HAVE DONE INSTEAD IT'S just a bunch of [ __ ] buildings like WHAT I I GENUINELY DON'T GET WHAT HE THOUGHT. I DON'T I WISH I COULD ASK him what were you going for on that because whatever that was that's the part that didn't land.
>> So my to my understanding is uh on on the matter of limbo his original idea was he wanted to build a city out of ice but it was very clearly a city still.
was buildings, but but they were all glacial and they were like breaking away into the sea, like icebergs, like chunks, like and obviously we know we we we get buildings breaking off and washing away into the sea, but for whatever reason, they couldn't do the effect or it or they couldn't get the effect.
>> I mean, I don't even love that idea.
>> No, I'm not saying it's great. It's better. I think you have you have to remember as well, I'm not trying to defend Christopher Nolan. I agree. I think the buildup to like oh when you we're going to go to limbo and it's this complete like vacuum of anything. It's like you don't want to be in limbo and then it's just a bunch of like derelict cities of like you know past ideas that ultimately failed and faltered being washed away and eroded into the sea. Um but I but I will I will say this. I think remember it is limbo. It's not hell. It's not meant to be, you know, there is a perhaps an interpretation of like it is just the absence of anything and that ultimately he's wa he's watching his work get kind of swept away and it there is nothing else there. It's just like the tundra, you know, and so imagine being in a place like that for [ __ ] 50 years.
It it would definitely suck. It would [ __ ] with your brain especially, you know, you're in you're just there alone.
There's nothing to interact with. I think it's sort of also implied you can't really do anything down there.
It's so far down into the dream, you can't like, you know, you can't build anything fantastical or whimsical or anything. There's no there's no fake people to interact with.
So, I think >> Yeah, but but I I just disagree with that conceptually. That's the problem is that I I think the build >> sounds like limbo to me.
>> I mean, remember it's again it's limbo.
It's limbo, guys. It's not >> Yeah. But this is this is where I think he lacks the understanding of human psychology that Conn has.
>> I mean, maybe >> that's it.
>> He's not a psychologist and he's very >> con [laughter] he's very much an establishment guy. I mean like Christopher Nolan's not like some rough and tumble, you know, been out there and had a bunch of [ __ ] crazy life experiences.
>> He also comes off as a bit posh if people don't get it. Like he's had a fairly short life. Yeah.
>> I know. I mean like quite lit quite literally he's born into money. He spent some time in Chicago when he was younger apparently. Uh but he knew straight away what he wanted to be in which was um he wanted to go to [ __ ] film school. He he knew that pretty early on. I mean his obsession with space as well comes from the fact that like one of his family worked for NASA or something. So, it's like, you know, he's not a [ __ ] you know, he's not like some rough and tumble guy. He doesn't understand, he doesn't understand like, I don't know, the kind of like grimy reality.
>> I also think to what you me talking about, I also just don't think I It's not just that I don't think he believes in God. I he seems actually very incurious about those sorts of That's what I'm saying. You know what I mean?
Like, I don't think he I think he thinks that's a bunch of bollocks, man. He prefers this is a this is like a tech version of Limbo. What would it be like with nothing happening, bro? Or some [ __ ] Because actually, one thing to tie to what Rich said, I'll tell you another classic cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason. It's kind of a good take is I do think actually he is the like [ __ ] successor to Stanley Cubrick because you think about again that like emphasis on tech and new tech and interesting ways of in also fabulous use of physical effects. And then also crucially for me, Cubri's also another person who was just possible. He he he found it possible to create impossible scale things in his movies. Like 2001 of Space Odyssey is probably the most groundbreaking film ever made. I always tell people you can't even understand it as a modern person because you take for granted that you've already seen the NASA footage.
That's before they went to the moon.
>> What like and the things he has shown you in that movie like to even dare to put that down in a script then actually try and make it is [ __ ] bonkers. And I think Nolan does that again. an ego.
You think even like Oppenheim, think of what he was trying to do with that movie. It's it's impossibly large scale.
Like it's so ambitious.
>> Yeah. I mean like Kubrick's definitely a good analog and probably who he's trying to be. I mean like Ridley Scott as well.
Another, you know, director.
>> Sure.
>> Likes to direct scale, create worlds, worlds that have their own intrinsic logic, you know, and then put big set pieces in those worlds. But I mean ultimately I I I agree. I I I think Christopher Nolan seems to be more like Yeah, he's very grounded in for all of his movies are fantastical. They're all grounded in in reality and and >> he's a technical he's a technical craftsman and there's nothing wrong with that. I just think he often lacks philosophical or emotional depth that other directors achieve better. Like there's not one movie he's made actually if you look at it that even is like, you know, where he hasn't taken the fantastical elements and explained them and grounded them in in some way in in a reality.
>> Deeply concerning for the Odyssey, by the way. Deeply concern.
>> Sure. I mean, look, I I I think um that might be the one where it like it it breaks with convention, but everything else he's done, I mean, like, you know, Batman, he everything's explained as being quite realistic and, you know, he Batman's superpower is money and he invests in technology and he he studied martial arts for a really long time. Um, you know, we're talking about in >> all of his villains are basically just mentally ill or evil, ideologically possessed. Like again, it's not that's what's funny. I always thought the bizarre thing about the success of the Batman movies was they're not really comic book movies in any way. They're almost incidentally about Batman.
They're really more like look at all this cool CIA tech and what if like there was some what if I scaled up villains and cops basically.
>> I mean, yeah, put it this way. It's interesting that even in the choices of um you know, the villains he he chose for that. So obviously Razal Ghoul in the first one is you know sort of recast as a a >> and they do the rug pull where you think it's kind of brati it was [ __ ] what is his name Lee N all along and that's much more realistic you know is less less fantastic. Yeah, exactly. He's a schemer, you know, like a devious politic working in the shadows. You've got that, right?
>> I mean, he also sidestepped the more fantastical and ridiculous Batman villains like didn't touch the penguin.
>> Well, here's the thing, Monty. What what Richard is getting out there is Razal Go in the comics, by the way, is immortal.
He has the technology to come back to.
They don't put any of that in the movie.
Like, that's immediately just stripped out cuz I again, I think he's just not interested in those elements to him.
They almost don't exist or they're superfluous. Well, I mean, even even the interpretation of the the Joker, there is no origin story. And in fact, quite famously, [snorts] he playfully [ __ ] around with the origin story where the Joker tells an origin story. All of it grounded in some form of abuse again reality. It's not like the Jack Nicholson falling into a vat of green goo >> and then having really bad plastic surgery, is it? Right. Like, it's [ __ ] you know, and also as well his version of Bane. It's not the pain that's jacked up on venom.
>> No, no. They just make it that that's like pain relief medicine or something.
I know it's not even like you have to understand as well like cuz um it it's they're doing the animated tril the Nightfall animated trilogy is about to come out actually. Um which is one of the great Batman arcs of all time. But I think a lot of people don't realize this that like the the Ba Bane is not just he's strong cuz he's hopped up on Venom, a drug he becomes addicted to and needs to live, but he's he's always been super intelligent. Like he's a smart [ __ ] You know what I mean? It's like, don't get me wrong, I understand several comic book writers have [ __ ] up as well and basically like, you know, when you're watching Bane wrestle with a [ __ ] shark and all this crazy stuff in some of the later runs, but like Bane is a smart guy, so he gets that part right, but there's no drug aspect to it.
He's not addicted to these drugs per on a permanent basis. It's not giving him super strength. It's just if I took that mask off, you know what? Would it hurt? It would be extremely painful. Yeah, it would.
That's [laughter] it. But like obviously if you take his Venom mask off, he's absolutely [ __ ] in the comics. So yeah, I mean like uh we we we've had this a few times when directors do comic book movies but they're not interested in the comics. I mean they've got this one right now with the Supergirl thing where the person that did screenplay misinterpreted the original comic to think the villain is killed at the end when it when they're not. and that's what they put into the movie. It's like people and you don't it's a very specific medium and you either get it or you don't. Um but anyway, Interstellar Interstellar is I mean like think about all the content that came off the back of Interstellar. It's all physicists and like you know wasn't it and going well this is so realistic. He's actually presented Einstein's theory of relativity in a cinematic language that's never been done before. I can't this is exactly what it would be like.
you'll be down there and for you three minutes would have elapsed. But up there 30 years and everyone's going crazy about it and it's like that's just Nolan. I guess he is just ultimately so grounded in reality that the fantastical only creeps into his movies when he uses it almost like a DSX machiner to explain what cannot be explained.
>> Tenant being a good example.
>> I love >> Yeah, I love his intellectual curiosity and the fact that he tackles all of these different subjects. But for me, you know, why why I prefer Paprika to this movie is that it's fun. This movie is fundamentally about dreams, but it doesn't attack human unc like subconscious psychology in a particularly interesting way in my opinion.
>> Sure, maybe not in an interesting way, but I mean like, you know, mal is a [ __ ] malignant force, you know, the >> Yeah, but that's that but that's that's like that's a very intellectual take on it. You know what I mean? It's it doesn't have the raw emotion of or like the undercurrent of >> the most fantastical thing. They just don't explore it much money is the idea that you can incept an idea and that know takes over someone's mind and becomes fundamental to their reality.
That's a great idea. Even though that's the conceit of the film, it's not really explorable, >> right? And and what I love about that part of this movie is they explain like okay at one level we have to have him believe this but at the next level we have to incept the other idea which is more emotional. Right? Even as a second angle on that, here's another thing in my director's cut that I'd add in. I thought they were going to start using that tech on themselves. Why not incept yourself to think certain things as well? That would be kind of cool, too, right? You could transform who you are in that regard, but some they just thought you they only use on other people.
>> The his uh self-help dream arc is his new career after after this film, right?
Um, but in any case, like what I love about Paprika is that Satoshi Conn has a much better grasp of human nature, I think, and how illogical it is and how emotionally driven people are. And I think that's what's brilliant about the end of Paprika is that he's actually showing what a process of yian individuation is and the encounter with the shadow and the fact that people people's rational minds are making excuses for what their subconscious minds are actually thinking, right? the the urge arises from the subconscious or the unconscious and then it comes up and then is postrationalized. I just find Satoshi Conn's grasp on these concepts to be insane. Like it it's crazy that he can put all this stuff in the film. So for me, I I love Inception. It's a very very different take, but it lacks the same I think emotional resonance and philosophical resonance that Paprika has.
>> I mean, here's the question then. Does that mean? Because here's one thing I'm actually shocked at. This feels like Monty's doing the Matrix thing to be a richer. This is a [ __ ] bagging movie though. One of the best movies ever.
>> You don't think so?
>> Well, that's that's the cool thing is like I love this movie, but I also love Paprika. And isn't it cool that we got two [ __ ] like mega banger films out of this concept and that they, you know, one of them clearly influenced the other? No, I don't think this movie is [ __ ] by any means. I think it's really good. I just when I It's a great ride.
It's great cinematography. It is an extraordinary technical achievement. I think the the the high concept is so good and it actually takes the concept of paprika to the next level because it explain it has things like totems like the technical aspect of paprika is worse than this film. But at the end of the day, paprika sticks with me more from a thematic and emotional perspective whereas this sticks with me more from like a intellectual thought perspective.
It's a different experience. And so I like the fact that both of these exist and I think they're both good. They just serve different purposes. I mean for me like I I think like obviously having only watched paprika once I don't think there's any contest about which is the better film and I think it's this uh I think it's Inception and and and the reason I say that is because first of all just the technical aspects of the actual physical making of the movie like put it this way even even if it didn't have great performances and even if the script didn't really connect the dots and all you had was the set pieces, it would still be one of the best action. The >> visuals alone are unbelievable.
>> It would be like one of the best action movies ever made. Even if it had no brain to it, even if it had no connective tissue. I mean, the central conceit of the film is crazy, right?
Like we are we are infiltrating people's dreams on a corporate espionage level and we are going to get into rolling gun battles, anti-gravity, kung fu fighting, you know, [ __ ] all of this incred. We can build cities in real time to escape from people that are there to stop us incepting people. Like it it is mental.
It is mental. And then also of course when you start adding by the way we can go multiple layers deep to manipulate time to our advantage or you know as it turns out at some points to our disadvantage. It it is crazy. And and look for all of the criticisms about it might not be as like psychologically resonant or deep as a Satoshi Co movie or anybody else that we like. You have to understand what the [ __ ] here's what the MO was for this. Here's what the order was, right? Christopher Nolan, you want to make a movie about lucid dreaming. We've got this big window in 2010, summer, we want a blockbuster that's going to blow everyone's [ __ ] dick off. If you if you can stick the landing on this, it's going to make you a [ __ ] legend. You'll you'll, you know, have cart blanch, do whatever you want for the rest of time, right? But it's got to be a summer blockbuster.
Like you can't make it this like slow meditative, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio and [ __ ] is is a Mrs. in limbo. Yeah.
My soul, you know, like bring out some [ __ ] Bergman style [ __ ] s, you know, symbolism. It's not going to work.
It has to be like, okay, look, I want to emotionally resonate with these characters. cuz I have to feel something for them. But I definitely want the next straight fire set piece coming along in five [ __ ] minutes because I'm a movie goer and Christopher Nolan understood the assignment almost better than any director ever has in history because I remember I remember talking to friends at the time when this came out and they were just like I went in there expecting Leonardo DiCaprio in an action movie with some like wire work, you know, like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or something like that. what what you get instead is this like mindbending unbelievable use of practical special effects CGI a script that yeah don't look at it too closely or you might see some of the cracks that have been papered over but ultimately a premise that hasn't really been done in this way before like getting in and out of dreams manipulating people in dream it it's just an unbelievable movie I mean like it's like one of those films that I I don't know like it it's it's a it's a 100y year movie but people still I mean I said earlier people still talk about it in a sense >> it hit the sweet spot where none of the graphics have aged bro we're 6 years out remember what remember I always think one of the best examples of like the fact that this was he also by the way waited enough time to be able to make this movie mate I always think the ultimate example of example of CGI that has aged impossibly bad is that one in Matrix Reloaded where all the agent smiths attack Neo and it just becomes like a bad video game cutscene like instantly and it switches like that and you instantly can tell they're all just f mate. This is only like I know eight years later and it's unbelievable how good these graphics look. Also actually one thing I've just remembered as well is as much as I don't like the limbo part that is where you get the full reveal that he was the one who incepted his wife and that's why she's been haunted. That's a really cool story, isn't it? What a dope idea that is.
>> Yeah. I mean >> and they I save that so white leap in the movie to tell you that.
>> I mean like put it this way as well. The other the other uh great thing about it is the way that it plays with all of the classic cinematic tropes and also tropes that you yourself would encounter in dreams potentially. I mean like you know you've got to love [ __ ] Tom Hardy in this like Tom Hardy is like that classic >> the effects they do with him where he's in the mirror and then becomes the other person or he's [ __ ] with people by becoming other people and then you know like the hot woman.
>> It's great.
>> Yeah. But but also like tonally he's like you know our man in Havana you know he's the he's the cool [ __ ] spycraft guy who's just >> you'll get a posy together Richard to do a get you get this guy >> 100% no obviously as well in tenant like Robert Patatterson is a very you know he's this character too essentially and it's like yeah you need that [ __ ] guy who looks good in a [ __ ] white suit when he's in Marrakesh or whatever just sat there chilling sipping on a [ __ ] cocktail playing it cool by the way like you know you know but ultimately when it's time for action he can rock and roll I mean like when they're in that [ __ ] Arctic warfare thing the thing I always just love about it is how un unruffled unflustered Tom Hardy is like he's just done it a million times on a [ __ ] jet ski with an MP5 just spraying people it's so [ __ ] good and obviously like he he's a guy he's a guy that like he's in a million movies, that type of character. You know, he's in a million movies. Like, you know, if you were to dream somebody like that up, you would put together all of the constituent parts of like, you know, he's a spy, he's a soldier, probably special forces, got bondesque elements in and of himself, right? Like, you know, never out of his depth, you know, always in control of the situation. But then you contrast that with like, you know, some of the other uh characters that they have in this where it's like, you know, again, I think about like Joseph Gordon Lever is not an actor I like, but as kind of like the brash young, you know, >> perfectly cast, you know, like Yeah.
He's the he's the guy who like essentially cases out the missions before they go and and do them. And ultimately like he obviously a lot of what they do is it it you know his the the escape getting in and out that's all on him essentially and so he's perfect for that because he is that brash arrogant >> kind of ambitious yeah it's right there percolating under the surface.
>> I mean put put it this way by the way James Franco nearly had that role. for thank thank god thank god for Joseph Gordon Levit is something I never thought I would ever say out loud play it >> just what's that gif he does say on the old times >> exactly [laughter] but so I mean it's so well observed and like to take all of these actors and give them the space to stand out you know obviously Ellen Paige as well as she was then um I'm not going to wcon it that would make >> does a good job in this movie I like it >> yeah you know she she's like really good in terms of, you know, what what she brings to the table in just f adding adding adding a somebody else to be disappointed in Leonardo DiCaprio, but then also to be invested enough in his well-being that ultimately she's the one that does slay the minotaur and helps him get through a a little bit. Yeah, I think that's very important. Like he DiCaprio needed uh someone to mentor because otherwise all of his flaws would not be as apparent.
>> So storywise, it's very clever to include him. And obviously there's that recurring cyclical theme as well. You know, you've got that with the Killian Murphy uh character, you know, disappointment, you know, disappointment in a mentor, father figure, you know, that kind of thing.
>> By the way, we haven't even talked about that. Think how cle, this is how complex this film is. Think how clever the actual psychological trick of the Tom Hardy character is is on Killian Murphy that what he does is take that exact thing that in real life all his father was able to say was like I was disappointed and he takes that and reframes it as I was disappointed that you you didn't want to not be like me.
IT'S LIKE THAT'S actually genius. The way that's built up is really clever.
You don't see that coming anywhere that you and that would be the one thing that could incept this guy to then want to break the company. What a [ __ ] cool idea that is. That's actually really well executed.
>> For sure.
>> Also, it is very funny that we're so invested in this movie where it's literally a breakup of a company we don't know or care about and it's literally just >> If you write that down on paper, that sounds ass, right? A guy wants a massive like, you know, tech corporation will break up so he can buy into it. So, what he does is he has to trick him in a dream that his dad was disappointed.
That sounds [ __ ] It's actually mega what he does with that. I just think it's so funny that the only reason we get that any we should we as the audience should care about this is Ken Watnab basically saying yeah >> well you know they're going to have a monopoly and wouldn't that be bad and you're like >> true >> I guess [laughter] who knows I mean Ken Watnab you don't seem like the most upstanding guy yourself so I kind of >> I will say when people do all the theories that's another one I'm surprised people don't go more to the other another theory I would have gone with is the idea of like mate the Kenwatan army seaitto character it almost seems like it could all be in dream though and that could be part of like what's going on cuz again first of all he's all there all over the first part. There's even a partner one of brings up which is when in the first dream when they're in like the Japanese like thing that later becomes recreated limbo at the end when they're in that thing where he's showing him how it works the tech essentially where he's trying to convince him to hire him right during that whole thing they have the mole character appear and then she's just working with the cyto guy in the dream to catch him and there's no like even like there's nothing seems weird about that to the other characters by the remember Gaprio gets it but like they don't even seem to have an issue with that then also later in the film when he gets caught out there in whatever like looks like he's in Morocco and place that right when he's out there that person like some mad dare sex mark just pulls up in a car get in the car quick here like bro like some of that even seems like he's ubiquitous in this movie again also by the way he comes along oh don't worry when we land this plane I'll just cut do a call and I'll actually get you in the country to get you the KIDS THAT AGAIN WHAT WHAT I LIKE about this and this is actually I think a master whether it's intentional or not is if this is intentional that is how you do intrigue in a movie you don't give me the answers you don't really put clues or if I found them all I get to oh is he decad is a replica No, you leave it out there, mate. You put in a couple of things that could be this, a couple of things that could be that, and then let my imagination go wild with it. Or for a moment, I think that, but then I shift to the other one. I think that's one of the other things that's cool about this film. Like, like we said, it really isn't about at the end, did you think it was a dream in the top fell or not? Like, have I so incidental? Again, like Hollywood would make a sequel where you got the ads on some stupid [ __ ] No, I don't want it. I want it actually how this is. This is >> I mean I I would I would say this like one of the things that I've noticed about Christopher Nolan movies is like you know you wouldn't hate if >> you you wouldn't hate if there was a sequel to Inception >> like and it was the same premise. Oh, sure. If this was fun, this would be one of the best TV series ever if this was like Yeah. Who were the other people who were doing [ __ ] with Dreams? And who will and who was a a guy who did some not to do with doesn't all have to be corporate espionage, bro. Like, it could be some other show. Maybe they're trying to change his future. I'm going to combine dead zone with this. You could have one where they go in and there's an evil politician that's about to get elected. They have to go in his mind and change him around so that he sees the world in different. You could think the actual concept is a great >> think about that. That would absolutely bang right now, wouldn't it? You know what I mean? If we if you just released Inception 2 and it's like, you know, you've got some politician who's got like foreign policy, >> you know, that people don't like and they're in his brain like it's a sewer like the Venturian candidate.
>> Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean?
>> I'm with you. Like if you think about it right, this is this basically if you could do it on a scale down level would be an amazing TV series, too. Sliders [ __ ] or something.
>> I felt that way about Tenant. I just thought I I thought unfortunately that the um the m that movie's ambition exceeded its grasp. I I I feel I feel Inception does not have that problem because it it's it's it is perfectly >> it it it works on two levels. If you want to be that forum wanker and talk about all of the things, you know, by the way, there are like 10-hour long video essays about this movie on like YouTube where people are pointing to all of the reasons why it's definitely a dream at the end. And actually, DiCaprio was put into a dream and that was his real reward that he gets to just live in the dream forever so he could be with his kids, but it is all fake and this is the proof and it's all foreshadowed and blah blah blah. you know, when a when a piece of art drives people to that level of almost like madness to explain it, um it it it shows you've got something uh really special. Like I mean I'm trying to think of that documentary movie Room 237 about The Shining.
>> Yes.
>> Where it's like everyone is saying this is what Kubric clearly meant and you can see why.
>> Even though they're half of them are like contradicting.
>> Yeah. And they're just they're just [ __ ] insane.
It's clearly about the the massacre of the indigenous people of America. Look, it's all there. You know, it's on it's on a burial ground for Christ's sake.
People, if a piece of art drives people this crazy to explain it because it's so rich, then it's definitely succeeded.
And what and why this is such a special film is because it remember this is just a summer blockbuster. This was just 160 million big budget blockbuster. Knock it out there. People still talk about this film today. People still are looking for like clues and explanations. And this is what I mean. It's like the thing I always feel sad about with Christopher Nolan movies is he builds these incredible worlds, >> but you only get to occupy them for the duration of the movie and then he's gone and he's on to his next thing.
>> He does need to make a prestige TV series. I mean, I [laughter] would love to see that.
>> Put it this way.
>> Not even about this. Just anything just the prestige. That's what I thought.
>> No, no, no. I mean I mean like do a prestige TV series as in prestige television. I think he would be the most suited director. But I mean also by the way that >> Jonathan Nolan has already done that multiple times.
>> Yeah. I mean >> Yeah. But here's the problem. That's how you also see that it wasn't only Jonathan Nolan. Jonathan Nolan's not as good a director though. That's the other problem is clearly his brother is the director and he was maybe the script writer or something. By the way, another thing that is dope about this movie to tie back to THE BEGINNING IS, OH YEAH, he did this fabulously incredibly high concept film. By the way, to make this film in other areas where you don't have the tech for the like graphics, it this would have to be like a French new wave film or something. It' have to be something really out there. It wouldn't be like a blockbuster. Oh, he only made like the better part of a Bailey off this. He made $864 million off this like >> that is wild. And even though it's got like an ensemble cast of big names, the other thing about the movie is beyond actually Leonardo DiCaprio's character.
It's not really about the other characters. They are just bit part characters that play a role like you don't have to flesh them out super duper. They just they just work as is.
So the idea he can make that box office of it's no wonder is he just had basically a blank check and a green light and just do anything as long as you don't [ __ ] up. You just keep going with me.
>> Yeah. And and like I said, this was um I mean, you know, th this was so ripe to like it could have failed. It could have been too big. It could I mean like >> you know the the the premise you're trying to sell to the to the cinema going audience. And keep in mind as well, you know, I want to say this is at a time where movies weren't really coming out if they weren't part of an existing IP. This was kind of like the start of the sloppification of films, you know, around the corner from the [ __ ] MCU, all of this [ __ ] And and you know, so I'm I'm going to sell you a one-off story in this fantastical world about these people that do these things with dreams and some of it's metaphysical. Uh, you know, like it could have easily [ __ ] gone down like a a lead balloon, but I mean like it just is that good. It's just like instantly accessible. like you you like Christopher Nolan perhaps better than any other director. He drops you into a world and says we're going to get on with it. And sometimes he does it with a set piece but not always. Sometimes he does do it with a monologue or just a very interesting opening, you know, like Momento is a good example um of like it doesn't always have to be a big setpiece to hook your attention. It can just be a >> Well, that was also before you had money.
>> Yeah. Yeah, but I mean like it it shows his cinematic sensibilities are as good as anyone in the game, as good as any director. Because look, we all know the hardest thing as a creative is the hook.
How do I hook you in? How do I hook you in and keep you there? You know, and it's like, look, this is a premise, by the way. I I I'd love to It'd be fascinating to talk to Christopher Nolan about this because think about it. In 2010, YouTube is just kind of really coming to the forefront and and all these other platforms are coming out and we and people never used to talk about this [ __ ] back in the day, but now people are like, "Let's frontload our videos with the the spiciest take and let's get this because we've got viewer retention and eyeball retention we have to do and and we've got all of these like metrics that we use." So people are looking at when did they stop in the video, how long did they watch Christopher Nolan when he makes a movie is so aware of the fact that like if if you're not hooked, you might turn it off. You know, it's almost like he's not even or you might walk out the cinema.
He's always like thinking like how do I just get you into the world and keep you there? And I think that's why his films are so like emotionally resonant cuz you do feel transported. I mean, I won't get into the wanky, oh, what he's doing in Inception is an allegory for the c cinematic craft. You know, there's some of that in tenant, too. Obviously, where we're talking about, you know, c time and create blah blah blah. Obviously, there's a little bit of that in there, but I absolutely >> But I think I think what he what he what he does is just transports you into a world that you want to be in and you want to stay in. And very often you kind of like I know I don't want to say despondent when it when his movies end but there are like you do feel like [ __ ] I'm never going to see anything like that again you know. Uh so he is he is a crazy talent and I don't want to say this is his best film. But I think if I had to tell somebody to go and watch a Christopher Nolan contender >> for if I had to tell somebody to watch a Christopher Nolan movie to really understand what he's all about, I'd probably pick this. I don't think I'd >> Well, it's also one that you don't have to know anything about any movies. You could just I think almost anyone could enjoy this film genuinely.
>> Yeah, I think so. I think I think so.
There's no there's no like lowbudget indie hipsterism going on. It's it's a big budget movie. um you don't need to understand anything peripheral to it.
You're just in there and um and it's not a comic book movie either. It's its own in you know it's its own IP. These characters exist within the walls of the film and nowhere else. And so yeah, I think I pro I mean it could arguably be his best movie. probably isn't like on a technical level or on a uh acting level, you know, a directional level like that might that might be Oppenheimer, that might be Dunk Kirk, that might be The Prestige, but I mean certainly in terms of accessibility, it's it this is easily his most accessible film.
>> Well, there you go.
Uh we will be coming back with the more Nolan with the Odyssey next week. So you can look forward to that. And uh after that we'll be back with tenant and then the prestige and following to round out the Nolan arc. We'll see you then.
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