In League of Legends, aggressive play is not inherently bad macro; teams that fight frequently can actually be playing good macro by managing cooldown economy effectively. The misconception that aggressive teams are bad at macro stems from confusing skirmishing with poor strategic decision-making. Teams like KT demonstrated that fighting more often can be the objectively correct decision when you have cooldown advantage, as enemies cannot have all their ultimates up simultaneously. This challenges the common perception that passive, scaling teams are better macro players than aggressive ones.
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What The Community Gets WRONG About League Of Legends | Shut Up and ScaleAdded:
Right. Shut up and scale returns for the third episode. See, it wasn't really a pilot. We were always going to do them, but it just sounds sexier to say. I I was doing a pilot for a new show. It sounds cool, doesn't it? It was episode one. So, we're on episode three now.
We've sort of got the beat down how we're going to do this roughly.
Obviously, as I will always point out, you the fan get to submit a take that will at least one take that will be examined each week. That'll be later in this episode. Go to the last nation discord, subscribe, and there's a channel in there, Short Up and Scale, where you can submit your potential point. The one we're going to start with because it's such a wide open but potentially spicy one is actually Nimra has a pretty interesting one. So this again to show how this isn't just locked in the here and now. It could be about any period of League of Legends or any aspect. So what is your topic?
>> Okay, so this one can actually be from any period of League of Legends you'd like. My question to you and to myself is if you could change one community perception in League of Legends, what would you change and why? Immediately in terms of context I think about things which you think are revisionist history.
I think for instance over time there were things like was fake as Leblanc can like countered in MSI game five finals.
I would argue no I think that is revisionist history but I think there are many players who've had very misjudged careers over time and I think there are sometimes some wider topics which I think are also misjudged over time. So, if I'd lead off with my take here, one thing which really pees me off is when people think that aggressive teams are bad at macro. If you fight all the time, you are bad at macro and you're just fighting for the hell of it.
You're a good skirmishing team. No.
Sometimes fighting a lot is the intelligent thing to do and it is actually good macro. And a slower team that's not picking fights and is actually just taking towers instead is actually a bad macro team.
>> Not an LPL bias. Take this at all. Is it nightmar? Perhaps, perhaps that where I came from. Perhaps that's where I came from. But funny enough, actually the game which got me onto this was actually a Korean team. Um and it was against an LPL team. If you look at um World's Swiss stage last year, game one of KT versus Top Esports in the Swiss stage, I think is a wonderful example of picking fights is better macro than waiting and scaling because in that game from memory, they were against like a Kaiser Nico composition all about like firing all their alts at once and trying to play these big plays. And there was one moment where a fight had happened and Topy, sorry, KT go from bot lane to top lane and even though they're half HP after the fight, they realize they have cooldown advantage and they can just fight again because the enemy team doesn't have their ultimates up again and it is objectively the correct decision in the game to fight more often because they're not going to have all their ultimates up at the same time.
They use that to great success and they completely blow out the one of those games in Swiss. I can't remember if it was game one or game two actually, but this is just something which I hear time and time again. It's like, wow, they're not a good macro team, but they fight really well. Now, there are teams that fight all the time and they are bad at macro and they fight just just because.
But like there are so many examples of this over time all the way back to like Unicorns of Love back in season five.
It's like wow is this the chaos style like no they're just playing around cooldown economy. They don't want you to have flash and that's a good thing for them. It is objectively a good thing. So that's one of the first things which I thought of and it really annoys me when people say pe teams that are aggressive are bad at macro. That was my starting point. So Nira, I'm gonna say this question is like, you know, how long is a piece of string? Like I feel that everything we do on this show is challenging community sentiment to piece, you know, revisionist history all the time. Uh so, you know, I'm just I'm thinking how deep can you go? I feel like this is a topic we could do over like 10 shows or something. You know what I mean? Um but for your I mean for your actual point, completely agree with you. You know, like I think that when when we talk about aggressive teams, I I think it does a lot of disservice because I think in League of Legends, everything is about risk management, right? It's like risk management, it's about cooldowns, it's about power spikes, and it's about like inevitability, right? Like I think >> about summoning insights and power spikes.
>> Yeah, exactly. You know, about scaling. Um um but the but what I would say is that so first of all, I think agree with your point. Uh, I think that often, you know, when you only when you're only making when you're a team that only makes a play on one side of the map and you make very few mistakes, it's very easy for a fan to see the this team is not mess making up messing up.
They're not making mistakes. They don't see the these kind of things, right? But sorry, they don't see the missed opportunities. And I think that this this is the >> I think that this is something that >> the entire ecosystem in the west it has been very very poor at at representing you know uh and I'm not just talking about the broadcast you know I'm talking about co- streamers I'm talking about analysis and that kind of thing. It's very very easy to make fun of somebody for clicking their buttons incorrectly, but you know, you don't even if the even the content that I've seen that criticizes teams for missing out on a certain thing, uh you'll see fans immediately replying and say, "Oh, how can you blame this one person? Maybe it's a team call, maybe it's like a, you know, uh maybe somebody on the team, he wanted to do that, but somebody on the team uh called him off or that kind of thing, right?" And it's a it's a people get very very defensive over these kind of missed opportunities, right? And I think that this is that this an I don't know why it's come around in this type of analysis, but you definitely saw it, especially in in NA back in like, you know, going back to the TSM Cloud9 days, you know, and I've never really understood why this happens, right? It's always that the the passivity is always rewarded, right? And because you can always see the insane come from behind team fight and you can always reward people in in your analysis for that. So So I agree. Um, I think also teams um that play slow. I I think the important thing actually when you're looking at the quality of teams is how on the same page they are, right? Like I can think of the the best example of this I can think of is Team Liquid the the Burgen Brier roster, right? Uh 20 2022 something around that like >> Yeah. 22 without far with with top and the one you have like I mean you know Santorin has the receipts it's true >> I mean I feel really bad for I don't feel bad for Santorin at all but I I sympathize with Centtor for for the bar gain no but but this is example a very good example of this right where you have like >> hyperaggressive you know flips everything top laner with Bxen who is like the scaling guy who's who's not going to take any risk at all.
Right. And I think those are those are the situations where you can have like a slow playing team that has aggressive elements that never take advantage of those elements. And I think that that's kind of where you you can have you often have these really passive teams that that have these players that see the game in another way and they don't really take advantage. So I agree with you on both. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Because the thing which I'd say with that is effectively playing aggressively or passive isn't good or bad macro. You can be a fast team and have good macro. You can be a slow team and have bad macro. You can also be a fast scene with bad macro and the opposite. But I just feel just that that combination of like slow is is good, fast is bad really annoys me when it just misses the nuance.
>> But but just before before uh just before before we move on on that, like how how would you go about educating about people about this because it's very easy to show aha look at these guys. They're so [ __ ] stupid. They're fighting a dragon and well that that has to be work over time, right? That has to be from, you know, content creators mean like us in the community, like when you're doing on broadcast and replay on cast as well. Like for instance, it's the thing which I've been trying to do on my LPL streams is talk about these things like there's I'm trying to like get it down into catchphrases. So the big one is like cool down economy. If you're playing Javan, you don't want people to flash out of your cataclysm.
So you try and force flashes so the important cataclysm in a dragon fight, they can't escape. That's a pretty important one. Same. In fact, we saw a game today with a Malight jungle and it's a similar kind of thing. There's another concept I call like um full contact team fighting which is a little bit different in terms of like sometimes in team fighting in the west you just think you have to peel back and kill the first target whereas in the east they actually just say no we die of your backline so they can't follow up on the engage and there's a very different kind of category around that too. Um it's a hard thing because the community is so split really between different streams but it comes through various streams and kind of like >> um trying to really hammer home messages. That's what the broadcast used to be really good at, right? Because everyone watch at the same place and get educated that way.
>> Yeah. No, I I mean I think part of the shame, part of the tragedy of the main broadcast is they have Odo on this, right? And when Odo was on Splice, we had this idea. Well, we had we have we talked a lot about something called two-stage engaging, right? Which is where you do an engage to bait like a large cool down. Let's say Mel Shenzo right now.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Or like Civer Civer spell shield was the big one cuz that that's like 30 seconds or like close to 30 seconds, right? So you you do a fake engage to bait the spell shield and then you immediately re-engage afterwards.
Um, and I know he knows a lot about this kind of thing because Odo is probably one of the best uh maybe well definitely a top three team fighting top laner in in Europe, European history and they never let him talk about these kind of things which I think is is kind of a shame uh is what I would say. Yeah, but but yeah, I take your point. I think it's it's it's something that always so I don't know Korean cuz I I can't really speak Korean but I know enough Chinese to watch like Chinese content creators and this is something they do talk about like Chinese content creators do talk about whereas where whereas I've noticed that the western commentators especially specifically LCS and a little bit le uh don't talk about as much. So I think that that that's a shame for sure. by the way he just was given that as an example though Peter obviously the whole point of this topic is we get to pick our role no do you essentially it's just a free chance to queue up what's your little rant what's the player or the thing in league that people get wrong but you're whole time you're like it's wasn't like that like he says the one he mentions there I even did my own video on exactly the same thing I actually show you that in game five of the MSI first of all like it's not just pawn it's like the whole comps built to try and stop fit LeBlanc and then even then they don't do it if you don't know if you watch the game fakers get killed off all over the place, but he looks awesome. The real problem is his bot lane feeds like a [ __ ] and they just can't win the game. So, and that's actually a famous oneless >> I think. So, some bro. Yeah, exactly.
But sadly, it's remembered as like fake.
I shouldn't have picked Leblanc. It's like that was like the least of their problems. So, do you have one like that, Peter? Do you have one that you always think of like people just get this wrong about a player or something in >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I I've I've got a I've got two, but the the big one that really like is a pet peeve of mine is inspired is a bad teammate.
>> Um, and this this Okay, >> this is like so I don't know. I blame Fly Quest for this as well, right? Cuz I know exactly what inspired is very >> is this politically correct thing to say. He's very Polish.
>> It is. Yeah.
>> I mean, for people that don't know what that means. Like there are I've had a talk with like Polish players that I've worked with in the past, you know, people like Mystik and um and Yankos for example. There are fewer words for like nuance like um for feelings, you know, in the you know, in English we have a lot of words that that you can use to by the way even culturally we do that intentionally like especially in fact this is something Americans have a problem with. British people don't say things directly. You talk around it and you infer what you mean. That way you don't hurt someone's feelings, right?
Polish person will just be they they actually value like economy. They want to just say what's wrong. Like this is the thing that's wrong. If you [ __ ] up, you [ __ ] up. But to us that would be like the implication would be crazy to say that. Is that what you're talking about?
>> Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And like the >> I've I've spoken with enough Polish people because this is something which has fascinated me. It's similar in Chinese, right? Like you don't have these moderating words in Chinese at all, right? Like it's it's it's very very direct. It's as few words as you can possibly have. And as a result, you know, when inspired is saying on the, you know, they have voice conferences saying like, "Shut up." You know, he's not saying, "Shut up because, you know, I don't value your opinion." It's just like, "Yeah, okay, move on. Let's move on to the next one."
>> It's a really efficient way to say stop, move on. And in fact, it was inspired and APA were on the pros podcast. I think it was like LCS content, and they actually talked directly about that and saying, "We don't think we're flaming each other. We just think it's like efficient communication." Now, funnily enough, that whole conversation about language, I've actually thought about do well, this might be a topic I talk about in the future on this show cuz I I in fact I actually pitched that as a like a university like paper for someone cuz they were in their esports degree cuz I think that the languages we communicate in in League affect the way that we think about the game and our idioms. In fact, we might have even talked about this in someone insight before Thoren.
Um, so there's a phrase in Chinese which I think is effectively it doesn't look good but we'll try and outplay and that really informs the mindset. So if you're bringing this to inspired too in terms of actually like well it's just efficient communication and while it might come across as harsh from somewhere else I can really see where you're coming from. I haven't seen that angle but that's really interesting.
>> But the problem with inspired is he spent so much of his career in NA where trust me like in NA even even the British people I've worked with in in Europe you know people like Cassin you know um it you really have to be careful about the nuance how you say things in North America right like I don't want to say snowflake but like it's it's it's it matters a lot. But it is way Peter, since you're saying British people, I can tell you Alfari is a pretty chill guy, mate. He's not a guy who goes out his way to talk, but he was considered like difficult and stubborn just for sort of not going along with stuff.
Yeah, exactly. It was blowing my mind, mate.
>> And and I mean, so I say so that's what I say in terms of inspired, right? But the problem that So that's the it's not the negative is not as bad, but there's so much content that they do around it which like Fly Quest did that video at where it made him look horrifically bad.
And if you like know what what was actually happening, they cut out so much of those things which were happening behind the scenes. And >> by the way, there was this is even something that was addressed on Subling Insight where I actually made this point to people that in those videos, exactly the ones you're talking about, it always looked like it's inspired going off cuz people were saying like cuz Nuke Duck just joined her like was he even really coaching the team though? Was just inspired like no the problem is I imagine when Mythy and Nuke Duck said their part that wasn't sexy so they just cut that out in the documentary. Like they wanted the players arguing that was the whole point of the drama of course.
Yeah, of of course. And and look, I I'll just say this is not a criticism. I I really want to be clear like different people have different coaching styles, but Nuke Duck and Mythy are like really combative, really like harsh, you know, Melz Melz Mel style, you know, like they're really really harsh in their feedback and obviously they don't show any of that feedback. Okay. So, so that's the thing I'll say for inspired.
But I'll say for inspired, the big difference, and the reason why I'm going to say inspired, not toxic, is because he more than almost any other star player believes that you can have potential from anywhere. You're going to work with rookies. He understands how like the thing I've always said is with Jojo and Danny, he knew he he was emotionally intelligent enough to understand that the way that you speak to Danny is different to the way that you speak to Jojo, right? And like >> I would argue that's one of the most important coaching things, right?
Because we talked about, you know, what makes a good coach on one of our previous weeks, right? But I think one of the I mean one of the biggest things about coach is communication because at the end of the day it doesn't actually matter the information you have if you can't communicate it. That is what makes the difference between a player and a coach really.
>> Yeah. And and same but if you have a star player on your team who understands that as well like if you have a star player who doesn't understand it then you as a coach have to moderate it. But if you have a star player that does understand it frees up so much flexibility. Like it's so much flexibility. And like you know I give a perfect example of this which is Impact was on their team. Impact very very direct has the highest standards for everybody you know pushes everyone to the same standard like treats everyone exactly the same to a fault because he treats himself like pretty harshly so he treats everyone else like this. Inspired never like that. Inspired always understands you could say one thing to Judger. You say one thing to to uh to Danny. You say one thing to Vulcan. You say and and that that that to me is like the opposite of toxicity. And the problem is all the content around him and all the voicecoms they even the broadcast even the LCS broadcast like shows him they never show him say anything positive like they never show him say and the only time when they've ever shown him say anything positive I think was the the weekend when when like um when Danny got the like when EG won the title and Danny got that like pent with the Baron thing and he is the one who's like cheering on he's like oh my god you're the best player in the world like I've never seen something so and like you know and this is this is the side we don't see and This is what triggers me the most, right? Like, >> didn't you say he literally sort of was the guy who would like put his arm around someone like Danny and be like, "Hey, it's all right, mate. We'll get him." He was kind of like also off camera was actually like very positive and as a person, right?
>> Yeah. Exactly. And not not like I mean, again, sorry, sorry. Trying very hard not to be racist, but you know, in terms of again, it's language, right? Like he's not the most >> the emotionally nuanced or whatever.
>> Yeah. No, no, it's not emotionally. The words he uses aren't always the kindest, but his actions are the kindest, right?
Like it's the type of guy.
>> Yeah. Somebody's going through a hard patch, right? Like, and then like, so we have a a bot who's going through a hard patch in scrims, right? So he says, "Okay, I'm going to pick Trundle and or Ivan and I'm just going to camp you the entire day." Or he says, "Tell the coaches, yeah, we're going to do that."
End of the day, stomping every game in bot because we're playing 3v2 in bot lane. everyone's really happy, you know, but he understands that, okay, maybe it's not the best practice we need, but it's what the team needs. And like this is the thing we never see about him. And like, yeah, so that's that's my big thing. Like I I wish in a different world inspired would be considered like one of the great leaders of like, you know, like he's he's on a full Polish team, you know, like uh because the league is like CS or something like this and he he he brought out the best of all the rookies he's worked with and things like this. And we see inspired as a great leader, but instead, nope, toxic [ __ ] Don't want him to wear >> in this analogy because obviously right now this is relevant. He essentially he's like the polish yoya in that sense.
>> Yeah. Perfect. Exactly.
>> Yeah.
>> But but the difference I think between him and a lawyer is that he will give anyone a chance.
>> Like he will like you have to prove his default is you have a you you are not bad until you know he only gives you two weeks, right? But his default is you have a chance.
>> From what I've heard about it's you kind of have to prove yourself to him. But once you prove yourself to him, he will back you to the end of the month, right?
But but you just have to get past that initial bump.
>> You know what, boys? Here's the thing.
If we're going to do a show like this, it's by definition allowed to be self-indulgent. You know what? [ __ ] it.
Cue up the greatest hits cuz I'm going to do my alltime rant of all time. So, it's not going to be a long one, but it's essentially >> Do I have a time for a drink or a minute?
>> Get the bingo card ready cuz there's going to be so many classics. So, here's the obvious one that I want to address.
If I could change one community perception, it's a bit like what you were saying, but the inversion of that achie, which is even though bizarrely probably the bias that we've all watched Korean teams that just played boring macro win a million worlds, especially the old SKTs of the 2010s, which was their whole style because what's funny is for teams because everyone's biased against the LPL, the teams that skirmish all the time are just idiots, aren't they? T yes, what they doing that's not League of Legends or morons? Why? What are they playing like this for? What you should do is play macro and play correctly and just bl. But what's bizarre is for players, we do the opposite for players, you're a [ __ ] if you don't just go in all the time. Why aren't you just trying to solo kill him, bro? Don't you think you're the best?
Wow, this guy is a stud. So, what's bizarre is obviously one of my favorite players of all time is the Danish mid laner, Frogggin, isn't it? And what people used to get wrong all the time about this player is they took pacivity as a player to mean you're a coward and you're scared to go in and actually fight. So what's funny is his is the probably the harshest contrast ever because his narrative was actually set before anyone played just the laning style. Actually back then everyone used to basically try to snowball the game in lane by getting solo kills especially the mid laner. Remember the mid laner could be playing [ __ ] like zed or [ __ ] phase or something insane. So obviously they were playing like solo Q and trying to get a really early kill off and then snowball the kills and get the jungler to come and just like roll the game and get like 10 kills basically. Whereas Froggen style basically was just I'll just perfectly CS. And there's two aspects to this that are really key to understand. One is he didn't do it because he didn't have the hands to go in and be aggressive. It's true. Obviously, he did play things like Ania, which you wouldn't go all in at like level two or something, right?
True, he did play the champions that are more like you farm the wave out. But first of all, in the early days, he didn't he played loads of stuff. He played [ __ ] Le whatever he wanted mid lane, right? But there's two angles to this. One is he actually did the opposite. He is the person, if people don't know, that had the epiphany one day. This is real. I actually What's I tell you a cool story that's a side tangent to this. I got to see in real time how this wasn't just like something I came up with. I was once at an event in 2016. It was a CS major that was in America. And at this event, Froggen cuz he lived in America at the time with like Echo Fox or whatever. Just came along to this major with his girlfriend.
I think it was like a fan of CS at the time. And they were just at an afterparty. And at the after party, because G2 had a CS team, Ocelot was there. And they actually hadn't met for a couple of years. So they were like I was talking to Frog and then Oscot came on. They were all having a chat and Ocelot literally said to Frogggin was he turns to me and he goes when this [ __ ] came along none of us even knew what he was doing because we'd all be trying to like find an angle to go in and he would just sit in the lane getting all the CS. But what would happen is he would just hit perfectly last hit every CS and then you'd you'd look at the scoreboard and you think he hasn't done anything all game but then he'd have like an item up on you and that was basically Frogggin's epiphany was I forget what the number was in his era but it was something like 15 million kills is the amount of gold from a kill in the game. So actually wait a minute if I could perfectly get 15 million kills every time and also if I do it well deny you some of the minions by [ __ ] with how you lane etc. Essentially, that's like just getting a kill with no risk. And that was his epiphany was, "Wait a minute. If you're the mid laner, especially cuz he can farm like a [ __ ] Why don't I just get to my items and win the game?
Why do I have to play this like crazy roulette early where we both go for crazy kills and if you get the kills, you win the game and snowball off me, and if I get the kills, I'll snow off."
But, but there's not it's not reliable.
So, the one there's that aspect, which wasn't like he was being a [ __ ] If anything, he actually figured out secret tech. It's just it was a long time ago.
And then admittedly, he did make this sort of like it became a cliche that he did that all the time. And then the other thing is this. This is where people get this wrong. It's definitely true that he never had the vision of the game of like once you get an advantage mid, you spread that to the map and you roam and you go and help someone else.
You don't help the jungler in his game.
You don't go help to the side lanes. He wasn't that player. But what people never understood was he was never actually a passive laner. He was the laner by the way that everyone who was an NA player, for example, who played him in his latter days said even at the end if you played on he was the hardest person to play cuz he would contest every single creep. like he would just be the person where he's going to get the CS but he's also going to [ __ ] with you as you're trying to get yours and that actually they said actually as a later he was a very aggressive he just wasn't the guy who roamed the spread it so essentially I do think people actually think this guy like sucked as a player knew he sucked and was just sort of scared under his tower the whole time I wasn't who he was at all I think that's such Listen you can certainly dislike other things like like I say there was a period in time where maybe you should roam and spread the map maybe there were times where he took it to an extreme of playing like when he could have just played some like dominant f I don't know [ __ ] Echo or something in that era. But yeah, the point is even though I can see the grain of truth, I think people took that one way too far cuz they made it sound at the end like you just sucked, bro. I think particularly when it comes to laning as well, he was really far ahead of the curve in regards to it is actually in many cases better to force someone to back on low HP than expend your flash to kill. Absolutely. Cuz if you're if you're over >> Yeah, that's another thing by the way.
He's getting like the gold of a kill with no summoners spent as well. Think how big that is.
>> Exactly. Exactly. And and and the stuff like I mean Obviously, everyone learned from Faker, right, in terms of the season 3 in regards to that because the the special thing about Faker is that he did both of those things. He was one of the first players to do both and you know that that era of Faker is so special because of that. But, you know, before that, like a year or two, you know, back in in 2012, really, Frogggin was the kind of guy that would kind of just um, you know, get wave control in the right place where actually you have to overextend to go get his minions in the first place because he's not like um like everyone else who's playing Lux Smith or whatever, just throw their skills at a wave and they just auto push it. Whereas, he just last hit and suddenly the wave's on his side. Now, if you want to get the minions, you are not safe. No, that's something which we still do now. That's still basics fundamentals of it. And yeah, I think there are definitely arguments about how Frogggin would transfer that lead and snowball the lead. And I think that's something which um has increased year on year. I think every mid laner has increased that year on year. But you know, funny enough, you mentioned Burgen earlier cuz obviously early in his career, he was very solo too and then um he became much more about that overwhelming pressure in the way that Frogen was. So actually Burgen and Froggen were great analoges of each other upon the ultimate irony if you ever look is almost every single great mid laner starts as the aggressive. I've got hands just like junglers. And at the end I made this point cuz at the time as you say they used to contrast for me, bro. He stop being a [ __ ] should be like Burgkenson or you ready or Jensen or Caps and they all END UP AS THE ORIANA main mate just playing that safe farm game cuz eventually we all realize you don't want to gamble the whole bloody early game do we like everyone learns that >> I think perception of every role has changed over time but I think particularly in that era people just took like not solo killing as a huge name that I mean that's a fair point I think looking historically there are a bunch of midlaners which just didn't get the value out of lane and also didn't get you know the ability to just like get the CS leads which he did Yes.
>> Yeah. I mean just on the frogging thing, right? Like so so obviously when like as somebody who I was a coach who didn't play the game, right? So a lot of what I did was to learn the game was basically just watching VODs and we get these files called raffle files which are basically the in-game replays of so which you can watch, right? And one thing I will say about Froggen is he always did so I'll just give an example on Anivia, right? Adivia is a champion which scales really well, but your level two three you have like a massive um power spike. Like you you can burst you can burst with your I forgot what the name of the abilities are, right? But but you know, you have like a lot of burst and he would always toss that out very very aggressively because Frogggin's the way that Frogggin kind of played lane is he would contest every CS but his goal was to get you to like 30 or 40% HP and then just have you just sit there in lane 30 to 40% see um and if you didn't base and you just stayed there at 30% that was what he wanted.
>> Yeah. I'm a mid laner and it's one of the worst feelings in the world where like you know you're not safe in lane cuz you've lost enough HP but you can't back. It's just the worst feeling ever >> but then it just gets worse like 2 minutes 3 minutes you know you're sitting there you're getting like 70% of the HP of the minions you can get you're like farming and that was his goal. So that was kind of his aggression. His aggression is like play a champion.
Well, when he was on those champions, play a champion that has really high bursts, level two, level three, hit my burst and then like just sit there and not flash in because if you die, you're going to come back to lane on full HP.
You're going to have an item that if I can just trap you in this terrible situation of your own. It's your fault, right? But like I'm the one who's like manipulating you, you know, give you a chance, maybe let you think, oh, if I just use these pots, I can sit back in the lane at 50% HP, maybe it's fine. And I think that that is kind of the genius of Froggen, right? The genius of Froggen was the reason he got those CS's. I don't think he was he was efficient on his farm, but not efficient in the same way as Chroy was. But the way that he was efficient was he was efficient at like managing his opposing opposing mid laner. And that's because he was getting a lot more minions because because of that because of how he was choosing to play that. And I think that's his phoenix.
>> Okay. By the way, I actually also think this is one of these topics we should put like in a folder cuz we could run this one back again, boys. This one has legs. It could be its own showy, couldn't it? Like there's a million players like I was already think I was trying to pick one that would be like iconic and you know would be a really strong contrast. You know, >> I'll give you some ones which I didn't choose. How the perception of broadcast has changed over time. People think that never cared about it. That's not true. I think about um how people took such a long time to switch up on Knight and Chovian on whether they were chokers or not. about, you know, which regions were the best in the world. How close was EU to actually winning an international title back in some of their other points, too? There are a billion different things. I'm like, was TSM actually a good team in 2016 despite, you know, not winning worlds? That's like, you know, five I can rattle off there. There's a million others.
>> Also, by the way, what you just said at the end there is also a very fertile ground, which is anytime a team was really good but just blew worlds, they're treated as they were never good.
And it was there were always frauds.
Whereas like we've had some of the best teams ever actually not win worlds.
That's what's crazy about League.
>> Samsung Blue 2014, one of my very favorite teams of all time. They were the best team of the year. They just happened to win world. Same with JDG23.
>> Much less fun than Samsung White to watch though. Like Samsung White were much more fun.
>> No, >> we talked about this the other episode.
I'm not going into this again.
>> I don't know. I think >> well my problem with that Peter is I will always have a bias which is even though I could see both sides of the equation when you say Samsung more fun to play I just remember what's probably my favorite World's playoff series ever the one against TSM where they just completely [ __ ] down their throats 24/7 to the extent that the one game TSM wins is Samson White almost says let's just give oursel an impossible draft and see if we can win with that too and it's like I actually thought that was I don't think there's ever been a bigger gap ever between like a Korean team and a Western team where like the West. That was like some, you know, holding your little brother at arms length while you slap his face [ __ ] Like they couldn't do anything against him, mate. It was ridiculous.
>> Oh god.
>> So I'm a little bit biased on that one.
>> That was the only game they dropped in Worlds except RNG. No.
>> Oh no, they dropped some in the finals.
RNG. Yes. Yes. Yes. But aside from that, they dropped that one game, which by the way, Peter, it was cuz they drafted the scaling late game cop and still tried to all in early, which is like, God bless them, by the way. They say level of disrespect is legit. I love it. best win rate of worlds was next year from 2015 SKT cuz they only lost one game in finals and they [ __ ] on everyone else.
Although funny enough, there's some revisionist history there. One last little thing where people think that Marin was the best player on that team for a while. He gets his [ __ ] kicked in by Ziv on AHQ in the quarterfinals, by the way. Go back and watch it.
>> Okay. So, so I always pick one of those.
That's the one you want to put in the comments, right? Like if you're watching this, go put in the comments if you want to see Niran and I like argue about Samsung versus Samsung. That's a good one. That's a good one. I'll dust off the boxing gloves. Never had any, but I'll get some and dust them off.
>> I'll say I I had two more for this, but I'll say I'll save those.
>> We'll bank them. We'll bank them. We'll definitely run this one back, though.
>> Right. Let's actually do the viewer question now, cuz I also thought the viewer question, by the way, was an excellent one. It's another one that could be meal long, but we'll find a way to make interesting angles on it. So, the viewer question was, what are the five ro dynasties of EU specifically European leg? And how have they been passed down over the years? So the analogy I'm going to guess he's making here because a lot of these people obviously people watch my content is I always famously did this thing that I do for European junglers where I don't just treat like here's the best ones. I tried to make it so the greatest ones are in like this lineage which I just created.
It's not a real thing. It's basically like it goes like diamond procs into Yanos into like it depends who you want to pick could be inspired maybe now it's skum whatever it would be. The point is it's like this is like the god jungle of the European lineage. And obviously in doing so, by the way, I'm being incredibly subjective. Like I've left out a bunch of great cyanide doesn't exist in my world, I guess. You know, [ __ ] Snoopy didn't. I' I've just picked my own people that I thought were like the [ __ ] I've also, if you notice, picked the ones where I tried to pick it so it was like for jungle specifically.
I also picked the person I always thought like the Koreans respected as well as was just a really good European and maybe had some international success. So, if we do something like that, but for all five roles, obviously we can there's a lot of interesting angles we can go. Which role should we do first, gentlemen?
>> I think the most interesting one's mid lane.
>> It is the position of Europe most famously. Yes, of course.
>> And and it had that one's very interesting because actually one of the things which I was noticing when I was talking about this lineage was these lineages is actually how many of them were because because particularly the conversations are about like oh but NA is losing its players to EU [ __ ] We lost so many of our key players to NA worst moments. Like if you're talking about >> Oh, the joke is when they do that thing the LCS court they go was it Bergken Jensen or double SAY ONLY ONE OF THOSE IS EVEN A BLOODY NORTH AMERICAN WE TALKING ABOUT? WHAT ARE WE ALISON? I GET we in the region but what do we even do now Americans? What do we do?
>> We lost like three or four like top tier mids over time which kind of broke our lineage a bit. But in terms of the initially very good mid laners, I mean you had um Pekk, Frogggin, and Alex each are the first three which come to mind from them. Um but then after that it it's quite interesting who you kind of pick up and who you put down cuz some players kind of came away cuz Alex each was the earliest of them to like bow out because he you know Gambit kind of fell apart. Xeek was there for a little longer so he ended up on Orhan. Um but then after that you get some really interesting additions cuz some of them didn't quite make the lineage. Like I was wondering at the time whether like Jez's might do it cuz he was actually quite a cerebral player. He never quite made it in season 4. So I think realistically for me you have to look at season five which is where you get Febbean join the crew and that's very very interesting for me because Feban was you know the guy on Fanatic that um solo killed Faker he was the guy that went to MSI and and did bunch of different things and he ended up being very very important I think to the overall um kind of like role in a way that I think a lot of other players didn't quite do that and the other player who took a little while to come online but was really really good was Power of Evil and these are two players I think Febbean and Power of Evil were like next class of people that were really starting to make a difference in the mid lane. And I think the real tragedy for both of them is over different points in their career, they went off to NA. And I think that was a really big problem cuz I think that actually broke I mean we were so lucky to get the next class of perks and caps right off >> because if we had kept Perks, Caps, Feban, Power of Evil, and they all managed to compete against each other in a good level. I think we would have had like an a timeless dynasty and we still almost had that. Of course, Caps is now timeless from present day to there too.
But then like I you kind of go through like 20 what 2018 to 2019 when you have like Febbean and um and Power of Evil either leave or fall off and things don't get so well. And in my mind at least when I was looking through things.
I didn't see like as many people I thought would do um as many big things.
I suppose I've missed off Nuke Duck but for me I'm not I don't know. New didn't quite make the list for me. I suppose you had like um had Niski join the lineage at that point because Niski I think does have to be on that list despite the fact that he left again to to NA and he came back because he was just a very different class of mid laner and so many of these people in this list I mean one of the things about this question is which you would take a very long time to talk about was very valuable is like how did they influence the lineage beyond that point because Niski wasn't the lane dominant player but he came in um he was the jungle whisperer and someone that could >> like do some pretty crazy kind of macro plays like that Jizuk almost makes it but again just didn't peak high enough for long enough beyond that point. Then after that I suppose you got to go to like well at that point is it um Len and Humanoid. Lass and humanoid at that point. Am I >> Oh sorry Nemesis that's the big name I'm missing in there. I there's so many names in this. Nemesis was the huge one in mid lane. Um and of course Nemesis is in that weird spot cuz he peaked really really high.
>> Yeah. And then him he was alongside Caps at the same time. they were actually quite good foils to each other as well.
So you had like Perks, Nemesis Caps kind of all hanging about at the same time.
>> Um and then it kind of took Nemesis kind of like taking a step back cuz obviously things kind of fell apart with um the Fnatic rosters at points there and then you had like the humanoid Len almost had VTO enter it almost. But that's where things kind of like get interesting to me cuz I think since that point I don't think in the last few years we've really managed to add anyone to the mid lane pool. I mean Jojo P is NA really like it doesn't really >> Yeah. The difference is we're not going to count him and if anything we're also going to say while he is very good that sort of shows us something TU midling who ironically he might be the best midler in our region now he's not even from our region which again statement no one ever thought we'd say about an NA player but fair play.
>> Yeah I suppose the one other person is is Nuke Nuke is the one person I think that ju could just about peak into it.
He's had the horrid problem of just not being consistently on the great rosters.
It's why one point you're making here by the way, first of all, obviously this is going to be the longest one because EU was the mid region as you said. If you ever did that in the same way as you can do that whole what if there was no Korean exodus for Koreans. There's another great one which is Europe also could have kept all its talent and as you're saying mid lane would have been the craziest position in the history of League of Legends. We'd have had like 20 names or something. So one of the points you're making I think is a very valid point here is there are a lot of people where because the first generation also had the international success because there was more parity in the regions.
It's only really later when you get Caps and Perks who also had the international success. It feels like they get to be in the same pantheon. I know what you mean.
The real problem a lot of the other ones have the power of evils, the Larsson's, the Nemesis, the [ __ ] um who was it you just we were just talking in.
>> These are also the people where it's like they almost made that cut into the top tier, but then they also in a way kind of didn't and they also didn't have the same like length of time that they were elite etc. I know what you mean.
It's hard to make it's actually it's the cut off points the harder part, isn't it?
>> Yeah. And like lots of these players influence each other in a lot of ways too. Um like there are so many names I got a piece of paper and I'm just like okay this is just crazy amongst all of them. And and there are some players which I think could have made it if they were competing against these great players for all those years.
>> I wonder what would have happened if VTO had had a bit stricter competition at points.
>> I wonder what would happen with some like Jackie actually recently where he's not bad. I think he's pretty good, but I think he could have been great if he'd had like the higher level of play cuz like right now we're in a really weird spot where we have Caps and we have Jojo Pun. Then beyond that point, there's a lot of inconsistency which makes it quite hard to really see who's like in that top echelon. Whereas in other points, like even if they weren't on a top team, you could still have a top tier mid somewhere. Now, a losing perks is a big one, right? That we we've talked about in different aspects before. Losing perks is a big one.
Nemesis not return because Nemesis wanted to play on a top team and he didn't get those offers, right? And of course, he came back for part of this year in a split. It's not really quite the same thing, but those are the names that stuck out to me in mid lane.
>> So, do you want to answer this one first, Thor, or should I? I >> I'll give a brief one. I I actually think you did a pretty good job summarizing a lot of it. Why I would even say is the reason the mid one's so interesting, too, is you can even do like stylistic lineages like obviously you can see a lineage between frog and power of evil and Len for example. like these are people it's all about laning and matchups and what do I do in certain counter matchups and how do I lane in in my own syncratic way meanwhile you have all those other people who like the aggressive ones also notice the sad thing about the EU one is even though we're going to be give credit to George etc they should we should have been in a world where Jensen and [ __ ] Burgen were in Europe that would have also been super sexy wouldn't it there's sort of a gap where they're off carrying a different region so they're not really associated with us so I think Midland's a banger I think the best one go on Peter >> so the the way that I kind of looked at this question is I'm going to use my um Lord of the Rings analogy here, right?
Like where you have like Realm Reunited and Realm Broken, right? And when I say realm united, it's like when there's one like superstar that dominates and then like when we talk about Realm Broken, like it's like when when there's like a competition and lots of people um are kind of clashing, right? So I say you have the first era where you have Expect For Alex it. I also add Judson to that because his first his first season in Europe was was very very impressive. Um but I think that you have the first the first big so the first big set is expect Alex itch and then say it then goes into perks then goes into caps then I think you have the humanoid nemesis lass and abdag for that because they all came up together right >> he's on the cusp for me he was big but >> but I I mean I think that Abdag is not a person I would mention as being like a top mid laner I would just say that it's in terms of an era right you have the peek in Alex era you the perks era, you have the caps era which kind of es and flows and then you have like the humanoid nemesis lassen. You you could choose whether or not to have a dog into that but humanoid nemesis lassen era and then we're back in caps era again. And I think the problem that I had so is I don't include I don't include Feban. I don't include power of evil. I don't really include Abad as well um because those guys all went to NA and they never really got the chance to establish themselves. But when I think about an era, I'm always thinking about though like I I I think that Abidag belongs in the humanoid nemesis Lson era because they came up together but he because he never really like >> So did you say you didn't consider Power of Evil then? So, so, so for me, Power of Evil and um uh Fedan, like if there was going to be an era between Frog and Pekk, so so expect Frog and Alex era, gap, Perks era, Caps era, Cumlo, Nemesis, Last Abadaga era, and then we're back into Cap's era, right? And the reason why like um I struggle putting cuz we're talking about the lineage, right? The lineage of a particular role. Like for me, I don't really count Burgen it time in Europe, even though he was really really good in the one year he was there. I don't include Power of Evil and Febbean because although Febbean had like a really good international showing and Power of Evil had had a really good showing, they didn't really have longevity and to me that that's >> Power of Evil had about two years. He did.
>> Did he have two years?
>> Well, 2015 on was really good. He was considered the best part of 2015.
Really?
>> And then obviously back again with Misfits, right? Cuz they had that five game series versus SKT.
So I I actually think he had arguably two to three years of being >> I think his first year on Fly Quest was pretty good too. He had a pretty good first year like in NF.
>> Yeah. But but that's in an that's in >> Okay. Oh, that's true for this moment.
Sure.
>> Um Okay, fine. Okay. You you >> because like if you argue it to say someone like you know Alex each had like I mean season four was a weird one for him but he had like season two and three where he was really good. So that's like two years cuz obviously at the early era of League this is where the lineage gets a little bit weird, right? Um smaller periods of time with so much more of the percentage of the whole existence, right? So like you have one year now.
It's not the same as just we remember players who are just good for one year in season 3 or season.
>> Put it this way when someone says now cuz people still do it where they go.
Can Carrier be the go? Has he had enough years? I want to go bro. My boy Madlife had like what? Two years.
>> That's about it. Like have they been at the game two years was a long time though. Yeah, you're right. The problem in the modern days everyone does five and 10 year careers now. So it means all the early players seem like they get kicked out the conversation. I know what you mean.
>> Okay then I change I change my answer.
So I I think there's errors. So expect forget Alexis PoE Feban era then perks caps.
>> I'm going to still count abadag. I'm going to say humor nemesis last era and then >> within your right.
>> Yeah but but that's my answer to that question.
>> Okay. I'll take a role then. I'll do top plane.
>> So the interesting thing is I what I'm going to do is I'm going to be a bit more harsh than if people want you can just add them in as we go or after I do man. So my I will pick the people. I think the first generation realistically is the one that is wicked and so because those were the people who just the [ __ ] Now yes, listen if you're doing ad people's name in I'll have to say the name Dariion, but to me he was a meme.
He was like like I the joke is like Koreans actually built him up to be like and he had this amazing tech that he would like buy the giant spot but not a but why would he do that? He was just a [ __ ] weirdo mate. Like it wasn't I had to explain to Monty like it wasn't as cool as you think it is. Like actually he was just doing some like l do this and it's like just cuz no one else thought to do that it works.
Anyway, the point is people like Wicked and Soaz were the [ __ ] in the early days. They were the only ones who could stand against Asian players and they could do the different styles of play.
Obviously, Wicked was the hard carry player. So, as was the I pick everything and just play. The joke is so's actual me um reputation later almost got co-opted by Wonder. It's the whole thing of he doesn't have to practice the game.
He can first time anything and every every Asian player has to worry because he might just do something random and just [ __ ] around in the lane and do so.
So, funny enough, a lot of what people maybe when you were fans think of as wonder was actually what Saz's rep. Then you went to the era where fully enough similarly because the Europe scaled down in terms of how dominant it was in the world and then we had people moving to other regions. You then also got kind of like we did with Midland like a little bit of a down period. That's when you got the weak siders came along. That's when my boy Odo came along and his partner Vizichachi these were the two guys where their whole skill set was. We stopped thinking of top play as a carry position and so you have to be the king of the weak side if you want to be in that spot mate. You got to be in that spot.
>> And we never returned to carry top player. We basically didn't because the joke is bro even when then later on you got think of these three names. You got Wonder. Well, Wonder was a stud at one point in time when they put him on the super team they just said you're weak side all the time and he said okay fair enough. You had broken blade who I always thought was excellent in that regard as like a carry but again on some of his teams I can tell you on TSM they were like half the time they were like you weak side now you have to play the carry. And then the name that'll obviously always get forgotten now even though he's actually still influenced is Alfari. Alfari was trying to be like frogging of top lane, wasn't he? It was all about laning and always being able to play from behind and all the rest of that [ __ ] So I actually and then we don't know yet on the next one like I assume Nako will be in it. He looks like he can be part of the next class. Who knows the funny thing about top player by the way unlike some of the other roles is if anything the last few years is when top lane's become a really significant Europe. Hence why people like anako can be a pure carry. You're getting the mters and the tracins and all these guys come up. So actually kind of become a sexier role.
>> Anyone you want to add in there boys?
Um, from that point I mean after that you got to go Whippo after that, right?
>> I should probably put Whippo in with the Wonder era actually. Yes.
>> Yeah. Well, Whippo is like a year or two beyond that cuz he was kind of mixing both of them.
>> Um, there are people again who like almost make it and don't quite cuz like Honey just blew out the entire LECs for like a split or like a year, right?
But he's only there for one year so that doesn't really count. Broken Blade does deserve to be in there at some point.
Obviously, there are people there there are some people who are almost in there again. I think of players like like Zoro Zero. If he'd stuck around for another year in the early maybe maybe he could have made it in there.
>> Um, >> besides that though, most of that's pretty spot on. I think there's less names in the overall lineage that people like that's the person who I'm >> like that's the person who I'm copying.
I mean, again, someone like Adam almost made it there, right? again because he had like he had like one really bad year, right? And then couple of well one really good year and one kind of in between. That's the those are the ones which spring to mind.
>> Yeah. I mean to me I I I think it's good to highlight the wicked so thing you know >> very funny but the one thing I I remember when I think of Wicked Soaz is like their they did the one v one for who who had the right to Allstars that year which is famous part of history. If you don't know what it is go look it up.
it. They literally they were so close in votes for the Allst Star that year that they agreed, okay, let's do a let's do a one v one tournament top.
>> They had like tens of thousands of people watching him on Twitch. It was crazy. It was like the most it was the most it was hyper European thing for so >> I mean I I think that for top lane since that era you know wonder may be at his peak but you can't wonder always has to be in the context of that G2 roster like Odo like like we had people that could do individual things really really excellently like I think Afari Odo and Wonder I think goes at least Chachi too.
Um, but I think I think that the problem with Chachi had is that he was he never got to go to worlds until like right at the end which was like kind of a bit of >> he was always the guy that died in the regional. Yeah. Exactly.
>> Whereas like I I I think Kabashard really does feature in the >> Okay. That's a name that's on the outskirts certainly. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I I I actually think Kabashard works for it because of that one vitality year like in 201.
>> Sadly I think he also probably because he did that come back to the LC and it was so bad in KZ. We've all deleted it from history, haven't we? And then also because like he he actually had some really good years in erls where I think he probably could have gone to LEC.
>> As far as I know, he just turned the offers down. Yeah, he just >> because cuz that was like the biggest years of Kine Co's ERL run and that probably it probably did mean more overall. Then he came to again just it disappoint. But he was around ever since like what 2016 came up first or something like that. He was around for a long time.
>> Yeah. I I mean I think that top lane like we've never since since those kind of like we've had individual people who are like really great specialists. I I think I think that's kind of how I see top. I think this generation of top like is like the European golden generation right of top playing like I think that there are people in this generation they can really kind of change the change the narrative about them which is because there's so many really talented tops because top was blocked because people were like oh success didn't really matter and then you kind of get this talent building and building and building in top lane until everyone breaks through at the same time and I think this is like >> okay knack obviously is kind of already there but having people like Hannah there so I'm Not saying kind of belongs to the list, but I'm saying having people like Cana there to push this generation of top Cana and Broken Blade like how how Knack develops, how Tracy develops, how Mton develops, Carlson if he ever gets back in, right? Like I think there's a lot of like really really talented top laners now and it'll be really interesting the next two years. Like I I feel that in the next few years we'll have we'll have a champion of who who won this generation.
And obviously >> you know the way people the kids say that thing. So it's like people have to understand Wonder had to crawl so that Knack could [ __ ] run. That's what you have to realize cuz the joke is someone like Nak Dako doesn't even know the like privileged air he breathes when he walks in. When he walks in the room as a rookie and goes pick me Yasaw in this game like what WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN?
Like the joke is Oda was actually a stud on [ __ ] like Jay. He couldn't even get it in the game bro. They were like pick them out guy. Shut the [ __ ] up at the ADC carry. Because that's another thing we have to add into this discussion, right? Which is I noticed that period specifically for Toplin where they all had to weak side was also where we had all these stars at ADC. So those teams unsurprisingly you load everything in the ADC. It's reckless, it's forgiven, it's [ __ ] upset. These people saber everything's going into the bot lane in it. I have a really funny story about this because last year while I was in the I was on the LC broadcast last year and I was um and one day um someone who was a coach for BDS Academy was in the studio and that was Edward from from Moscow. Ed in the studio and I talked to I I had to get I chat to him cuz you know um Sam my brother Sam's favorite team is Moscow 5 so I got his autograph and whatever you know I did get those privileges of getting little things like that and I did say to like hey you know like there are these players like Mirwin and and Narako aren't they just like the spiritual reincarnation of Darion and he had a good chuckle with that he's like yeah I actually see quite a lot in that so even though Darien like for me he is part of the lineage and I know he wasn't for you in the same way and that he was a meme for me at least he showed that you could do something different in top lane And I'm glad that even though probably no relation at all, but like 14 years down the line, we've got some top lane players that can pull out just the weird [ __ ] again. So for me, the spiritual reincarnation of Darion, he makes it onto the list for me just for an emotional reason. I need him on that.
>> Fair enough.
>> Okay, let's do another role then. Peter pick a roll.
>> So I'm I'm going to go jungle. And I think jungle is the easiest role of all of these because I think that there's always been like one kind of dominant player. And my lineage is I'm going to go diamond procs. I'm going to go Trick.
I'm going to go Yanos. I'm going to go Elurea. And then I'm going to go Skuman.
And that's my list. Okay. And I think in each generation, there's always been one person who the others all learn from and who will like uh shape kind of the jungle meta uh in the region. And those are those are the >> Did you Wait a minute. Did you have Inspired there?
>> Oh, no. I don't think he was here long enough. I I think inspired has been like dominant in NA. Like I mean to me inspired is the NA is the NA is the dominant NA. You could put inspired. You could put inspired in Fair enough.
Listen. Okay.
>> But to me, it's fine. We'll [ __ ] be saying it. But to me, it's fine. He's been in NA since 22 now.
>> I'm glad you said it for you, not me.
Okay. Right. Fair enough. Okay.
>> Christ. You're right.
>> Right. Give us some reasons. Give us Give us some reasons for those. Give us 23 when he moved over. What was was he?
Oh, no. It was Malang in 22. You're right. Sorry.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like I mean, to me, inspired is is I got to be really I'm going to trigger people. To me, Inspired is the best European jungler in terms of mechanics and in terms of game knowledge, but I don't consider it like in the same way that I don't consider Bj European. Okay. Like Inspire Inspired can come back. He's insane player, but but yeah, I don't think he had enough time in the region on like top top teeth to really make his mark. And yeah, so so why do I say these? I mean, Diamond Pro no I don't need to say. Well, he's like in the global lineage of D. He's actually one of he's he's one of the few players that actually makes like global lineage >> and and that unironically Koreans would say, "Yeah, we copied him." Which is like you can almost never say that for any other role. Yeah, absolutely.
>> Yeah. I think like Mickey, Captain, and Diamond are the only three that like I've had Chinese people come up to me and tell me that they've copied. So, Diamond, I think Trick, why do you why' I put Trick before Yanos? Uh because I think Trick came in, he did a lot of things playing with perks, you know, uh how they how they played that uh that mid jungle 2v2 uh that kind of shaped how European junglers thought about things. And the person who learned the most and who adapted the most, I think, >> funny enough, he was the first player to ever get two MVPs in EU. No one had gotten second MVP before him. So, he actually hit a milestone there. People really overlook a really good call.
>> And what Peter is saying, I can tell you is accurate. If you ever talk to people like Perks and Mythy, they're like, "Oh yeah, the trick guy is what sort of taught us that way of playing." So in a weird way though he had nothing to do with in the game. He's like the spiritual successor of the G2 super team. You wouldn't have Perks and Yankos playing that way if Trick didn't exist.
>> Yep. Yeah. And then obviously Yankos speaks for himself. And then I think I think that basically I think Skumont has so I put allure there purely for longevity. I think the Uya inspired argument would have been much more interesting if Inspired hadn't gone to NA. I think like you can have that argument over internationals and you can argue about how they did. Also, you have that detail I'll always bring up with Ela, which is no matter what you think of El Yoya, he has one of the most gangster stats of all time. I think he's won like four LC titles. He's never played with per caps ever. He didn't have caps and perks. He he just did it on his own, bro. Like everyone else, remember goes, "Well, how am I supposed to win caps, wins them all?" He did.
Apparently, it wasn't a problem for this guy. He won all the other ones, didn't he? He's pretty good.
>> Fair play. He did it. He did it. Like there the quality of player that has won with aa I would argue is even quality of player.
>> Especially here's the thing. Obviously the first one was pretty good with human but you look at the ones where it was Mad Lions where they hated each other and they lost every scream game into the more recent Mad Lions ones. These are like he's probably had the greatest Minmax success career of any European mates. Crazy. Yeah.
>> Did you throw Yike in there though?
>> He did. No, I just threw in >> He didn't. He got power of evild. He power of evild. Yeah, I power I I really don't if goes and makes two titles with JC like >> we're three episodes in. We're making new wonderful shows.
>> I'm going to get flamed so much by JC.
>> Oh god, I tell you a player who I actually would add in though a little earlier cuz this is a guy that was overlooked, but I think he peaked really hard was actually Maxaw. If you remember Maxaw back in like cuz it was he was the guy that broke TSM in the tiebreaker on Misfits 2017, right? He fell off super hard. Don't get me wrong, he fell off super hard. But Max Laur in like 2017 2018 actually was a very different kind of jungler. So while you still had Yangos around in like crazy form and that was just before like Broxer came in and obviously well Brox was a bit strange cuz I don't think he was like individually as dominant, but he worked well within that team. I I'm not sure I put Maxwell completely in there. But it's actually worth a nod cuz he did some really inventive early jungle pathing cuz remember how he like ganked top in that tiebreaker versus TSM? who was a very ambitious player >> and they ended up playing very different style in 2017 Worlds because they couldn't play Enchanted supports. He went full Ivan and allowed them to play the Leona bot lane which ended up being anyways just innovative. I'm not quite he's again on the cusp but he's worth a mention I think >> but I mean I think if you put Maxwell there you have to put Xerxes there. Like Zer was you know the best best Ivan in the world, best Trundle in the world and best Kiana in the world, right? And I think like uh it wasn't I mean I the thing I'd say about Zerx is he the was the best jungler in the world until something went wrong >> and then like >> the way that I phrase it is like he's a plan A player. If it goes to plan B there is no plan B.
>> But but his but there were things that he could do that that we consider standard today because he was the one who innovated. Rumble jungle as well, right? Like I think I think he was insane on like those innovation innovative picks. That actually raises the question about Kickas jungle as well and that boils my noodles because Kickas in 2015 around like he he was the initial like Unicorns love jungler. So like he he's actually in there at some point too. I mean again the problem is for EU jungle. You're absolutely right.
There's like one mega jungler pretty much all the time and most of the time that was Yanos like for for a long time.
Also notice if we were making like a stylistic judgment, we've mainly picked out the junglers that were like they also were like masters of macro or they like had a massive like influence sometimes a captain's influence on their team. Whereas if you think actually in the tradition of Europe because Europe was so much about star mid laners or we've had a lot of dog junglers that their job was just follow the mid lane, do whatever he does. So unfortunately a lot of those people don't get to have their name in the list. You have to sort of be a little bit of a a battlefield general I feel like to be the guys we pick. It's why if you notice at the end he picks one. It's an obvious pick, isn't it? He's the guy I always tell people now even though Cap's actually ironic because he's very good this year.
He's having an excellent year. That's Skubon's team now and they they sort of get it within G2 I think.
>> Yeah, I think Sk's fantastic. The you tell you what there was actually an interesting person I just thought of too who's again doesn't count for EU but Svencaran if he stayed in Europe. He would have been on there.
>> He had the inspired thing. If he'd have stayed around a few more years maybe he could have been Yeah, absolutely.
>> Yeah, that's another player who you think well probably could have made a name.
>> By the way, he actually Here's what's funny. I'll give you another example where the same narrative gets repeated and attached to a different player. What everyone says about people like [ __ ] blabber, etc. No, no, that was literally Spence Garen. He was the guy where you didn't have to ward because he was in their jungle the whole time. So, it's like he was the moving ward bro. And also, you didn't need to know where their jungler was. He was fighting him.
He was just fighting over a camp somewhere. LIKE THAT WAS ACTUALLY unironically a really good start cuz if you remember, he used to play with Enr Rated. And I can tell you when Enrated was the guy who like that's the game planned that. It was like right we're going to see on the map where they are by where you're invading them and then we're going to know all the timings and the pathing in and [ __ ] Yeah.
>> And then amazing slots somewhere in there too. Rex was in NA for a bit but like amazing and sense I mean at least he had the origin year right. So he actually he's he's again like there is people who are like definitely in the fabric of it and they probably did inspire a lot of people. So people like you know amazing Brock you know players like Maxaw or Kickis just in different ways cuz Kiss the creativity. I think that Amazing was actually a really good Gragas for instance, he was one of the best Gragas in the world. God, even players like Trashy were actually pretty damn good for their time at peaks. He was really streaky. Like his off was button was really bad. But that jungle is definitely one of the ones with more nuance I think because there's quite a lot there there's quite a lot on the first jungler and then the second through third like they have specific strengths but they don't stand out quite as clearly.
>> So So I kind of got a follow-up question to that. Namir. So obviously the the the top jungler you know the Yanosya Skumo well I mean you can argue with but let's say Diamond Yankosya right does Yike belong in that lineage with them or is he like a is he like an honorable mention or is he like a does he belong in the like you know successor to to Yankos?
>> I think Yike does I think he does personally. I mean, the way that he just completely ran the league. The person who I think is actually more interesting is more borderline is Razorg cuz he was actually very good regionally at points and then just like has had these awful collapses in playoffs and internationally to the point like well yeah everyone knows him regionally and you do mention Razok in conversations and he probably has inspired a lot of people but realistically he is a rung below Eloa inspired for his time and now Yikum.
Razwok has sadly found himself on the second rung of that. Unless he has like a breakout like one final last harrahar or whatever, he probably won't be considered in the same level.
>> That's fair. That's fair. I think that that's fair. I think I think for sure belongs a tier above Razok, but the tragedy for like we talked about Razok two weeks ago. The tragedy for Raz is he should have been in that lineage. He just >> 100%.
>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
>> Yeah. Someone that I don't think shows it well. Right, we've got two left.
We've got AD carry and support. Which one are we taking?
>> I'll do support. You do AD carry. Go on then.
>> Cool. Um right 80 carry. Um cuz actually if you this is one which I don't know enough about season one to tell you accurately but there's a lot in season one that you're probably does have to put down there because there were players like well yellow star was an AD carry at that point and he actually he hit the cross mapap Ash arrow that is like the one highlight clip >> from um from from that final. So that one's like a really important one in there amongst things. And then after that point again season two, god season two I just I wasn't there to tell you like who inspired all the people. So like you do mention people like Yellow P and Genja, right? But I don't think EU would really come online in terms of his AD carries well and truly at that point.
So while there are a lot of people cuz um this is really important piece of context here. the the laning style that we have, one top, one mid, two bot, was called European lanes back in season one because they used to play um that style and that was like a really big um part of that. So I mean I suppose for the early years you kind of have to take kind of like I don't know Genja and Yellow Pete and then obviously Yellow Star ended up switching away. So he's in a bit of a weird one for season one he's in there but but not really for the other ones. Um, so outside of that it gets a little bit weird. Then you get into more way more interesting stuff and around about 2014 to 2015 we have a lot of people who either made it who are just on the cusp. Like there are people who are just on the cusp like Tabs if he'd had one more good year would have actually been very good. He was great on Alliance particularly in summer 2014.
Um, players like Mr. Rollers was on a bench in TSM for forever. He probably could have made it at some point. Candy Panda was again too much of a bit player, but you are left with some really [ __ ] good AD carries at this point because you have forgiven and reckless. Season four is just all about Forgiven and Reckless. And that's when actually I think you know you're talking about like the weak side top laners coming through. I think it really started with these two carries cuz actually it was look if you give resources to Forgiven, he will explode a game. You're done. And Reckless was such a good kind of ticking time bomb that >> you pretty much could always guarantee that he would be a fact at some point into the game. although he'd take a little bit longer than some of their other ones going into season five. God, you you almost had you almost had players like Woollight cuz he was there in 2014 as well, but I don't think Woollight makes the cup because he's one of those guys that was so so um like mechanically gifted and then just would like in in the worst possible moments like once a game. Freeze is one of the greatest tragedies of EA player. Yes, >> I I think he's a borderline player.
Freeze should have been in this list. He was actually up there with um Forgiven.
In fact, there was there was a team that was subbing him in and out, right? And then >> HDK and then they ended up he ended up getting carpal tunnel, right? Freeze didn't get carpal tunnel, funny enough.
Um >> his um his his twin ended up coaching Fnatic, right?
>> Weirdly last couple years. Yep.
>> Yeah. So he was in there. Now this is one which I need your input on. Does Hannan over the few years he was in there actually count? Because he was such a bit player.
>> Problem is that Darian factor in it.
He's kind of the name is the thing.
Remember his MOST FAMOUS CHAMPIONS, HIBIGA. FOR [ __ ] SAKE, BRO. FORGIVE THE NIGHT. LIKE STUDS ON CAITLYN.
Reckless says he's [ __ ] whatever. A million champions. But yeah, give me a break. He's on [ __ ] >> play. He did he did beat RNG. I'll give him that.
>> Yeah, he did beat G. and he actually played really well that series. But I I think that the so I I think I'm a bit harsher with people that belong in the lineage, but I would say that Hanan is kind of an honorable mention because there were two years where he like Perks could so zen mythy went to NA and the first choice Perks had to replace them was Hanan, right? like Hanan was were because when when I went to um when I joined splice like obviously the all the guys were leaving and there's a world where where co leaves and Hannan was the guy that that we were like looking at to to enable kind of a roaming sport but there was no question like it he had been earmarked you know for G2 like you know that you have this brand the brand uh you know it's like don't touch this guy you know like uh in the way that G2 G2 had a very smart, you know, it's it's not quite mafia style, but it's like, you know, you don't want to waste your time there.
You know, like when they're talking to other orgs, not to the players, like, you know, they put the arm around, you know, they have the pool party with the players they want to recruit and then when they're talking to other orgs, it's like, you don't want to waste your time on this. Like, it's, you know, bad things may, you know, with the implication bad things may happen if you do. And Hanan was one of those guys that got the like pool party brand. uh not brand the champion the the so so I do think he deserves kind of an honorable mention in that regard >> right and then obviously you mentioned a guy in there Zven is like well and truly in the lineage even though he went off to NI later Zven was like he he was such a big part of EU um play to the point like he overshadows another name which like >> is not quite there for me is Cab which like I don't know yeah like CB like he deserves like to be on the fringe there right actually he he was one of those guys that was actually very very good like every so often. Now, the weird thing is actually like Hans Samur is in there and he starts quite early, but I don't actually think he qualifies until much later. Hans was actually >> quite inconsistent.
>> For me, it's when he got to Rogue was when he started to matter, you know.
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> Had the failure in NA as well, which kind of a black mark at one point.
>> What Hans started in LC in 2017, something like that, right? 2017, something like that. And he probably took him about >> three years.
>> I can say as well, he was a way more raw player. Like by the way, when he first began, he wasn't even a particularly good laner, believe it or not, which should probably shock people now. Like he had to level his game up a lot. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And then after that, I think we have a bit of a delay until we get like what? Patrick and upset. And Patrick is in again like he's in a fringe scene where like Patrick is not again one of those.
>> Notice how there's all those players.
Here's what's cool in history. If we ever had more time, we'd expand this out. There's all these players where actually they were the rival of someone else because the other player took off and they didn't. They're forgotten cuz as you say like Power of Evil was supposed to be like a rival of Feban.
Someone like Patrick's supposed to be the rival of Oset. These are supposed to be the next Forgiven and Recklesses etc. Freeze should have been with Neil's Zven etc. But yeah, the problem is when one goes on and has a success and one doesn't, one tends to get forgotten and so I know what you mean. I bundled these names together. I know what you mean.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And then like the the timing.
Sorry, Peter. Do you want to add in there? No, I mean I just say that that when he was sheriff and he was on H2K, that was a tragic H2K and he was like one literally every >> Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, he does. No, I think I actually think I just I just remember the sheriff. He does actually deserve to be in that. And actually Patrick >> and he was also that busy [ __ ] He was the guy who just had to play every year.
They never go to [ __ ] Worlds, wasn't he? Every at the end of every year he'd be like fourth or something. They'd be like, "See you. We're off to worlds.
Enjoy Patrick. See you, mate." Like, okay, so we mentioned Hans Sam and Sven and then we have like Upset and Kazzy come within about like year or two of each other, right? That was around about your like 2019 to 2020 kind of era. When did when did Kazzy come into >> Yeah. And he he got up there pretty damn quickly. I think Upset got there a year before. He was um 2019.
I'd just like to imagine the world where Peter went from the insane copium he had for copy to he just got Kazzy bro the most balls tow wall [ __ ] of all time is just going in like I'd like to note the contrast with like the whiplash must have been crazy Peter >> I mean I say that actually really similar like I think I so this is the biggest the biggest Kobe copium but but I think the K and Kazy team fought very similarly like they're super super aggressive players in team fights the difference is Kazzy was super aggressive in lane and like Kobe was yeah he just wanted to knock.
>> Yeah.
>> Someone who's on the fringe is Crowny after that point cuz he was there from 2019 and like he really became way more noticeable on like the BDS um 23 roster, right? When actually he was like I he would have like the Ky the the the Crowny oopsie once a game where like you just be out of position and lose lose the game, but he would be winning the game up until that point.
>> And like he probably does just about make it in probably cuz that 23 was really important. It was a very different, you know, he he was pretty big at that point. And then after that point, I mean, you almost get unforgiven, but he was only here for a year.
>> Yeah.
>> Um Oh, sorry. The one person I've miss is Comp. Complex does deserve to be in there. I actually missed his name out.
Comp actually does deserve to be in there cuz he like he fell off hard, but actually he had a couple of years where Comp was actually legit [ __ ] good.
Like he was really good at points. Um like obviously peaking in 22 when they obviously beat um G2 and Malma. Um and then has anyone else come up since? Oh, then we've got Yeah, I need Kalista.
>> Yeah, and then we've got Kalist really.
And then Kalist is like the one person like, okay, wow, he really is actually >> he's in the Knackle thing where it's like he is going to be, but we just can't 100%. They have to have more time, you know? We've got to give him a bit more.
>> Anyone else?
>> Did you want to count Super?
>> I wouldn't put him in yet. No. Um I don't think he's I' he could get there, but I think Kalista is closer there than Super. But >> why are we putting Spanish copy in there, Pete? Why Why we putting him in there? Just leave it. Spanish is is um is is Flacker though.
>> Oh, okay. True. True. In a way, >> Flacker is a player that's on just like he Flacker was very interesting cuz he actually was so interesting on like the G2 what was that the 20 um roster. He was really interesting there with his with his versatility with target mess.
But like >> the heretic stuff was not good for his perception. It really made me feel like he had like that one season and then like everything else kind of went a bit tits up. So yeah, now we have like Kalista is like the guy in Europe and we've still got the continuation of Kazzy. I think those are the names I put in there. Like I added in a lot of caveats, but realistically, you know, like we had those hyper carries right in the early well, we had like the defining parts of the roles. had some hyper carries and then it started to diversify out a little bit beyond that and around about what 2016 to well 2020 is when it really kind like that kind of speed point in time where we started having like reckless and kind of um a couple of the other players kind of like starting to spar off with them.
>> Yeah. I mean I think the problem with AD carry is that AD carry in Europe has been disrespected internationally like I mean you had references for given who were respected right and then nobody even even people that I think were unfairly were unfairly uh put aside like freeze you know I I think if you talk internationally you're looking at reckless forgiven and then like maybe Kazzy >> noven was pretty well respected okay so so reck so reckless forgiven and then like It's really until the modern day that you have like people who are properly respected again and I I mean you know I think Kazzy was underrespected. I think Kobe was underrespected. I think upset is underrespected right internationally but but you know people don't rate these guys >> pretty when you consider how many championships Han Saba has won domestically. I don't think he ever really got that treat the joke remember forgiven every mal but it doesn't matter if you go ask a Chinese player they're going to give him a stud. Yeah.
>> But but the crazy the reason why uh is that my barometer for for are you respected internationally is do people uh internationally think you were better than pucks at AD carry?
>> That's okay.
a great topics in this list, right? But but I think that if you ask like the average, you know, like informed Chinese analyst, right? I just mentioned because that's the >> um they will tell you that there's maybe only four AD carries that they respect more than personally and which are Kiss, Zven, Reckless, Forgiven, and like you know, maybe some of them will will like Kazzy, but only if if they're like big um big uh LEC followers, right? EURCS followers, right? They're not going to rate comp. They're not going to rate Sheriff. They're not going to rate, sorry, um, Patrick. They're not going to rate uh, uh, Crowley.
>> Yeah, that's fair.
>> Even though maybe they do deserve it, right? Because it's the international.
The problem is that you don't see these guys. You don't see the domestic play.
You don't see Sheriff trying to drag this H2K corpse across the line, right?
Uh, you only see the international. And that's why that's kind of the additional context. But I do think we've mentioned most we mentioned most of the the top >> EU countries. Okay, on to support, I guess.
>> Right, for this one, again, this is one of the ones where you have to remember like like we were just saying about ADC there. Also depends on the role and what era we're talking about because at the beginning of the game, unsurprisingly, there was only a couple of relevant teams. So, it was people like Edward, I go, Peppa, Krepo was in there at the time. If people don't know, Krepo actually gets a little bit hard by because later in his career, he was kind of whatever. And he obviously more famous, he became an adalist. Actually, people have to remember when he played with Yellow Pete, that was one of those scenarios. That's like some courier play with Gumiushi stuff. Like that's a player that's yellow pete was considered more of a limited like ADC who just scales and then wins on the champion.
Basically, Crepo wasn't in the position to make crazy ballsy players and do all I can tell you he definitely had like decent mechanics. He was a guy who could have played differently with someone else. Then you go to the era that was people like Nrated was actually like a captain figure as well. lot of people don't know it. I always think that SK Wick was basically just him and Sence and a bunch of like Phil players like that's even a forgotten team. That team was technically number one in the ULCS at one point in time. Obviously Yellow Star swapped famously roll swap and actually had so much success at support.
A lot of people don't even know he was an ADC before. At one point in time Yellow Star was seen as like the captain of European League of Legends. I can make anything happen. Like funny thing is now people look back they'll see those rosters. They'll see Feburn and Reckless. Yellow Star was the dude back then. Even it was even the perception was like look this is what here's what's forgotten in that the split where they went 18 and zero fans now will go with whom he ran the EULCS back then the perception was how the [ __ ] did yellow star remember in the first split he had steel back how did he get these randoms like a feean who'd never been a bunch of Korean rejects and then a [ __ ] nobody ADC from France people viewed that as like a miracle that I can tell you that one year is why TSM literally just gave this guy like a black check like please join although the irony was they thought he was joining to a shot caller. He thought he was joining to go, I'm done with that shot caller and stuff. That's why you had a terrible time there. Then you go to the obvious two classics. Also notice in all these discussions, one thing that definitely helps you in all these lineage discussions is if you had your era and it should have been then we go to the next one, but you're just there forever still. So in the same way is actually an underrated thing about upset is he came along halfway through and he's still here now. Similarly, if you are Mickey X and Hillisang, they actually came along a million years ago guys. But the point is they were just so great that it's only recently anyone thinks they even dropped off. They were they were actually both in the in LEC last year for [ __ ] sake. Those two guys what's funny about support and this shows you how different roles were valued differently is beyond like maybe a bit of Edward because Gambit was just a feedom at the time. I actually think Hillisang and Mickey X do stand out.
They overshadow everyone before and after in their role because that was the one era where as Peter is saying those are two players where I could tell you I'd have to think who it would be. But I can tell you I've talked to notable Koreans and Chinese people where famously they actually did for Hillisang his nickname was the professor cuz they had no clue what he was doing bro when he was making players they weren't just going like what an idiot they were going that again they were doing the Monty with Gambit thing there must be a level of genius beyond this door and I want to go you need to meet Hillisang Brawl and speak to him because you're going to realize he is genius but it's unspoken mate he's not conscious he couldn't describe to you what he's doing and then Mickey X I always thought actually for a while was stuck in the shadow Hillisang I always used to think bro it's the same game and skill set he just doesn't have as sort of was outgoing a personality in a weird sense. So I think actually it's only once they got past the perks period because by the way I agree on the perks one the reason on the ADC one we didn't put perks in is I've always told Perks I said mate the miracle is this you were insane when you played ADC you just didn't play ADC you just played in the bot lane and then did what you know like that was just like where you started the game and then you went and did whatever you want did I said the genius of what you did is you never had to learn the bloody role mate and also hey don't worry he does know that he also caught the craziest timer of all time when he came in on the Zaka era or whatever and then he [ __ ] right off when Aphelios and all that came which would have been like that and said that would have been the nightmare if he had to stick me.
Luckily anyway he dodged that one. It's all good. Not that his career went much better after that. Whatever. He did dodge that page. So he gets to live forever as an ADC god and never have to be tested on the real bet. So then similarly after Hillisang and Mickey X listen he gets oh I forgot one name before then. Vander I have to obviously put Vander in there because he came to call it out. Yeah he had the longevity.
>> He s he had longevity and he was like a connective tissue for me to this area you know. And then here's what's funny though boys. Even though we have some pretty good supports now, it's a little bit harsher because after that period in time, you have to go to like what Labrov, Trimby, Alvaro, like these are good names, but they're not quite Mickey X level. You know what I mean? At least they have to do a bit of work because I do think for support, this one's the most overshadowed entirely by Mickey.
there that will go to those position >> like it EU support peaked in about 2015 where we had like mythy and um Hillisang and Yellow Star.
>> Yes.
>> Um and like in the early days, you know, I agree with almost everything you've said. I mean there's the only there's like a question mark on a couple of people like Ignar was pretty good for a while in like 20 what 16 17 around then.
Kaiser almost made it and then whenever he was disconnected from Kazzy and Elgoy, he just fell apart. Turns out Yeah. Um I I think a fist on that one a little bit.
>> Yeah.
>> Whatever. It's whatever.
>> I mean just just knowing how like how like the shot calling works with Ela and Kazzy and humanoid. Kaiso was literally just a puppet like like the guy was actually really good at re but like he he this is actually one of the big problems actually within support and actually we've talked about this a lot in different context which is about cuz we talked about this in regards to Razul and blabber just the other week in terms of well you know where's the structure in the game coming from now you go back to 2015 we did have you know like my Vander wasn't bad and you had yellow star you had um all these players still hanging around and then Mickey eventually came out too well Mickey's a little bit weird in terms of the structure we don't have those players that often this is the one which I thought of the least names for. Yes.
>> Um and realistically we have maybe Alvaro making it now.
>> Yes.
>> I don't I mean Trimby had like one really golden year.
>> Isn't he the one that I always felt like he's what he's he's like the the failed genius though. You know what I mean? He he could have been in that like Mickey Hillisan category. But for some bizarre reason at this point in time by the way there's no coherent story if you ever ask the teams. But there's just something that puts teams get the ick when Trey joins for whatever reason.
numerals as well. The worst example ever being that Fnatic did what I still think is the worst trade in the history of the NLC, which is about I tell you what, CAN I THAT'S like some like ripping a kid off in the playground of Pokemon cards.
Can I have your hollow Charizard for this basic blasto? He's like, WHY WERE WE WHEN THEY TRADED ADVEN for Trimby? By the way, Advian wasn't even in the league like a split. I think we never heard. Is Advan even alive? No one even knows. Like that's one of the worst >> Adv Trim that they did that deal, bro. What even is that? Look, I I've actually talked to Adrian a lot personally cuz I hung out with him a bit outside the game and like he's a lovely guy. I doubt even he knows why they did that though cuz like I mean that was just such a weird decision. I'd forgotten about that.
>> I think the problem though that if Trim had the career that he's had as like a top laner or as a as an AD carry, he would he would have a bit more respect cuz I mean he he won the title on Rogue.
He was decent on Fnatic.
>> He saved Fnatic when he rejoined when they got good again.
Then he was even on the [ __ ] um what do you call it? What team after that?
>> A [ __ ] >> What was he onetics? What team he was on? I can't remember.
>> He was not bad on that team. He was even decent by the way. He even got a Brazilian team when in theory and he was supposed to see all that. He's got a world got on VKS. He was on that team.
>> No, but I mean I mean like what I'll say is on heretics on so on the one split I work with him on heretics. I mean he was he was good on that split. Um and then yeah on on Ke he he literally has changed support in Brazil in a way that Drake has changed support in Europe changed jungle in Europe but we don't see it because nobody >> see he was on Koi by the way when Rogue kind of like changed over to them and that was like the weird thing he was on.
So technically still rogue but Rogue under different colors.
>> So it's it's ironic but I think that Trim is more respected in Brazil than he's respected in Europe. Um, and the problem he has is that he has Hillisang and Mickey above him and preceding him in the in in the order. I feel Alvaro is belongs there at this.
>> He's going to get there eventually.
Surely he's going to surely he's going to polish the rough edges off and get there.
>> The list is so short right now. He kind of is there just by virtue of like who else is there?
>> I'll give you a little spicy teaser as well cuz people haven't thought this through. What what no one's really thought through because we're still doing the soap opera of like Merwin and Super get a second chance, you know, and they can stay. What people are forgetting is the actual success of Jojo implies they don't have to be Spanish anymore on that team. So, I'll tell you where Alvaro gets like boosted up in this list in like one or two years. What if his next ADC just like is upset or Hans or something, boys? Like, if he gets someone like that, then that is the time where his name can blast off completely.
>> Yeah, for for sure. But I I mean to me just just looking at the list the thing that that I I think is that impresses me the most are the players that were able to reinvent themselves over the years and to find like I mean the we talked a lot about the lineage and a lot of these star players and people that have really high peaks but the people that impressed me like really impressed me when I was doing this are people like Yankos you know Yankos playing le in every single game into into finding >> hey he was the elite god in 2014.
>> Yeah, exactly. Into like becoming a Sajuani player into like on the Heretics team that wasn't that good. Sorry.
Playing, you know, Wukong every single game to to like to like carry.
>> But the idea you go from the first blood king to like the carry the cover jungler is like what? Like that's some bizarre [ __ ] Yeah, absolutely. And so so I mean the people I really want to call out are people like Yankos, people like Han Summer who who reinvented themselves and people and the thing that that will allow me to like make a proper assessment on Alvaro is whether he is able to reinvent himself cuz right now it looks like he doesn't know how to play range sports in any sense of the word. Right. He was absolutely tre tragically >> the enchantment meta is his main enemy right now. Yes. Absolutely.
>> Exactly. So if if he if he works it out then he goes in the hilly Mickey and it doesn't mean that he has to be able to play those. It means like he he has to have a pocket crank like Labro has to be able to to come there and that that's what will we will put him in that lineage at that scale to be.
>> Yes. Okay. There is one we've done like that's another topic we'd also explore because obviously we could do other regions couldn't we said pick your favorite region we could do it for another one right what about and also by the way the real based one don't do it immediately but down the line just someone do this like just pick the LPL we can go so hard on that one sadly half of you going to be but it'll be mega don't worry it'll be it'll be so self-indulgent right the last topic of the show is Peter's so Peter what is the last topic >> so so so this is a wider discussion topic uh which is so we've had a a week of a month of like interesting road shows, right? Like LCK did their experiment when they went to Vietnam to do their road show to kind of like expand expand the league here. And we've also had Europe for the first split like for the first time probably basically handing off these road shows to teams.
Uh I mean they did the last bit as well but like uh this year there's an experiment where they are handing off the these road shows to teams and it looks from the outside at least in EU as like a massive massive success. Let's be clear the these games that happened in in was it in Madrid at at the Koi home stand.
>> We had both Paris and Madrid sorry there was one in Baralona as well which is just outside Barcelona. But but but these games this last weekend, it was one of the it was one of the most insane weekends of LEC that I've seen. But let's be real, like all the teams were already locked for playoffs. They just played like these games don't really >> you could even see how they drafted, bro. Like Casey wouldn't draft that way in some of the other games. I know they were [ __ ] around. They were [ __ ] around.
>> Yeah. I mean, they were [ __ ] around in the J. But but like >> but it was hyped. You're right.
>> It was massive and massively hyped for games that really just >> Yes.
>> in competitive sense didn't matter that much, right? So, so I guess my kind of topic which I want to open up to wider discussion is what does what we've seen the success of what we've seen in LEC and kind of the mixed success like the LC for people that don't know about the LCK road show it there was interest but the problem is either through ticket touting or through like the the >> they set it about five times as high a price as as people as for local economy and basically a lot of fans boycotted it and therefore I mean there were like a lot of fan boycots online. Uh but there was a lot of interest especially for Genji like so so the so I guess my my kind of question is you know will we see this as part of the wider ecosystem like is there is there is there a possibility for something like this to happen in in NA is there a possibility for this to happen in uh uh more of this happening in LCK and obviously well I mean we'll talk about this a little bit more but obviously this is something that they've been doing in LPL for like a decent amount of time right >> enough actually yesterday IG just opened open up their own new arena actually. So now we have five team arenas in LPL where they play their own home games.
>> Yeah. And that's in Shanghai, right?
>> Uh yeah. And then there's a rumor basically that the neutral venue of Shanghai, which is basically where everyone plays, if no one has a home team, it'll just move to the IG stadium instead because they actually own the building instead of renting it.
>> Um >> so yeah, obviously we've got well a bunch of different regions. LCP it's in a very different scenario right now, so we can't really talk about that in the same way in depth, I don't think. So apologies to like the Apex fans out there. I've got a few con I I'm going to ask about them and see what's happening with like the live event there because they've tried to hold things across different regions really. But yeah, obviously in LEC I think the road shows have been seen as a huge success because we had last year we had like King of Madrid which was like just a weekend of regular season games and it meant something because it was in front of a crowd. Um, and I think that this is just a lot of people have started watching since about what 20 22 23. I mean, we we've now had since co 6 years. People forget that every finals used to be a huge thing and it used to be the fact that the reason you couldn't beat like a caps or whoever your bigname players was because they just were better in stadiums and caps is the big stadium player. And then when it kind of came came back to like, you know, 200 person arena studio, it felt like he was actually beatable again. And there were caveats really because I mean I think it's affected everything. I think that the styles of casting changed because like you're playing less of the live arena. I think the style of play changed. I think that a lot of what people valued in players and the whole broadcast and the experience changed too. Now we're finally getting back to those road shows and as Peter said in a different way with it being more kind of backed by teams which kind of shows maybe financially the teams would take it on themselves but actually if the ticket sells good they take kind of more the profits. There's more you know more investment potentially more reward for them too. Um hopefully it signals a bit more of that kind of precoid era of esports which for those you weren't where I'm for it was a wonderful time in terms of like the live arenas it was fantastic you know um back when worlds was in Europe in 2015 had an awesome time like going between different cities and stuff and you know um live events for internationals were always a big thing but even just having like a road show um for LEC on the road or ELCS back then was a really big deal at kind of engaging local fan bases for Europe I think that works very well because we've kind tapped into the national fan bases.
There are negatives to that, but it does mean you get a lot of engagement coming through there. Even teams like Giant X, um, when they went to Madrid last year, they basically said, "Oh, we didn't know we had fans until we turned up and they just had like a whole section full of them, which is [ __ ] crazy." And that's great in its own right. So, >> I think on an economic level, I'm not sure how it works internally, whether it's subsidized by Riot or whatever broadcast partner they have, and then the like the teams put it on themselves.
Obviously, KC and MCOY have held some of their own arena events before. Casey doing like their own, you know, KCX and their own kind of roster signings and stuff like the roster announcements which are really really cool.
>> A lot of stuff.
>> Yeah. So, that's been really cool, too.
It It does strike me as a bit worrying that it's only those two teams doing it.
I would imagine not many other teams could get the draw for it or they don't see the reward as equal to the risk or they don't have the skills in house.
Like, you know, the biggest team in in in the league is G2. I'm not sure where G2 would hold it. And if so, how would they produce it? You know, like what what um expertise do they have in house rather than reaching out to um you know, figure things out. Doing it doing a live event for the first time is the hard bit because Casey and MCO had already done it. It gave a much easier way for >> to be more explicit. When you say that, Nightmare, you also obviously mean because Kmetto by themselves are huge streamers, therefore they already have the tech people who could just expand out and do the event, right? Whereas you imagine someone like G2 would be bringing someone in to do that. They don't necessarily have that same capabilities, right?
>> Yeah. Because obviously the the local broadcast is basically just the co-reamer there too. You're basically tuning in for like this is chat now. The arena is like all of these tens of thousands of people which watch them too. Doing an event the first time is the hard bit. And even then I mean the first time you did they did the event for the road show. It's not like there weren't tech issues. It's just that there was such an atmosphere they just didn't it didn't matter. And that's the big thing about the road show. The thing which is interesting to me is like will this ever expand beyond just KC and MCO now? I mean they are the ones which are capable of doing it now and that is a good thing. like they should do it because they hope well I think it's good they can do it but my worry is like how do you even go beyond that to introduce other teams so it kind of brings um >> sure >> some different locations onto the board like will we ever get a London road show will we ever go to like Amsterdam will we ever go to like you know other big kind of like um big kind of cultural hub cities or anything like that will that change because that that is going to be the next big step for LC if they want to walk into sports but for now I think it has been a big success people seem to be excited about it um it's a huge change from I mean like LC playoffs is all happening in studio. I understand why cuz you can't guarantee which teams are there and you don't want to have the hosting team not be there for half their own damn event. You know, I can understand that. But for LEC, I think the initial steps are good in terms of the plan for the future, which I think is part of the spirit of this question, too, or what it means for the ecosystem.
I think it's a good thing. Um, I also wonder whether this will incentivize Riot to just go online and then have road shows anyway. Maybe that's a plan for the future. Maybe not now, but like in a year or two if they want to wind things down in Berlin, cuz let's be honest, Berlin's kind of been I don't think they've built the esports community in Berlin very well to make it a hub for esports. It's just the place where the games happen. It's not like there's a thriving local community here.
I mean, you know, there are people, but it's not as explosive as Paris or Madrid or Barcelona or whatever.
>> Yeah. But I I mean, I think there's a couple things on this. So, so the first is the profitability. So, Adam Adamu is who's the uh CE I don't know what his exact CEO or something of of Overactive Media who are the people that are in a partnership with I don't exactly but when we when I was on Spllyce they were the people that owned Splice uh and Mad Lions. Uh but basically uh he said that they needed 7,500 people to attend to make it profitable and they got they were they got more than that and they were very happy and it was a profitable weekend. Um can uh the other thing is that Overactive Media have a lot of experience running these events because of the Overwatch League. Um because they had to build that experience because of that. Um >> which team did they have? Was it was it Toronto?
>> Toronto.
>> Defiant I think they were called the Defiant >> I I can't remember Overwatch Toronto. Um but basically they have a lot of those people in house. Casey obviously have tons of people in house because they've been running these events. I will say that somebody who's attended a Casey event, there were there were growing pains at po at different points, but they've learned a lot obviously from they've been doing this for four or five years, right? And uh and uh they're now probably the best at it uh in the west.
Um so so I mean I think that those two definitely have the experience. The problem is that the advantage of those road shows going to places like Rotterdam, going to places like uh uh I can't remember where all of these places were, but but you know, >> there was one in UK, there was one in Spain, there was one in Sweden, there's a bunch of places. Yeah, >> you got to like build your fan bases rather than like kind of leeching absorbing additional fan bases. And the problem is if you have these events at just France and Spain, maybe they'll be profitable, but that you're not going to grow a a following >> and you're not engaging your fan base.
Actually, just tapping on this real quickly cuz I just remembered an event because back in 2020, there was a it only happened the one time, but there was a thing called Neo Surf Cup and this was when XL were partnered with Twickenham. They were partnered with England rugby and they actually could rent out some of the rooms from not like the whole [ __ ] Twickenham Stadium, but those you that don't know, not big into rugby or anything, Twickenham is like the hall of English rugby and you know Wembley for rugby.
>> Exactly. Like like I'm a Welshy. I spent a lot of time in the Millennium Stadium whenever I went there. God damn. It was like enemy territory. It absolutely was.
But there's something very special about kind of like having those connections.
And that was when that was I believe XL were there. And then Neo Surf Cup was effectively just a show match best of five between Misfits and XL in early 2020. And I had only just started. In fact, this was maybe end of 2019 maybe.
And that was where I met a lot of people cuz I I went there and I ended up meeting so many passionate people who it was think was very telling that the people turned up to those events eventually went to work on a new sport.
I was there. Um, a bunch of people who got involved in teams were there. My brother was there. There's a couple of people that we ended up doing LGL with.
We went on to work with both Rya and um, URL's too.
>> People who I would say have had like a decent amount of success within the scene. Um, and like I I feel like we've missed out. It would have been so much easier to do this again about like besides the national teams, right? I think that MCO and Casey have made it easier there. But I think a lot of other teams because esports kind of been winding down in terms of SC spending and we don't have as many of those partnerships. um we don't have as many of easy things to tap into there in terms of those kind of um events, but it'd be very interesting to me now that road shows are on the table whether teams will start looking for those partnerships again purely for live events actually. Can you partner with a venue or someone who owns a venue to give you like just some outs that way?
Because maybe some big sports teams or whatever just want to have like an option to hire out their venue for another day.
>> But it's also it's also a question of finance, right? like how much you know when you can do these shows so easily like and this is the thing which really scares me. You can do these shows really easily in France and Spain. So why not just keep doing them in France and Spain instead of like subsidizing let's say in Germany they can only fill a 3,000 person arena, right? Are you ever going to do an event in Germany? Well, okay, if you're not going to do any events in Germany to grow your fan base, will there ever be a point in the future where Germany will ever be able to get right to be able to get an event? And like for me the the tragedy about Berlin is that the a lot of decisions that were made basically kind of killed the the German fan base because you know who who did the majority of German fans support besides like Fanatic and G2 it was Unicorns of Love and Unicorns of Love didn't make franchising and those were like like Unicorns of Love before franchising those guys >> and then kind of went >> Fear Our Horns and like they would always be like they would always be the most represented you know and >> well that's why Roman started off too, right? He was like the kind of like the their cult leader almost.
>> Yeah. And I mean that that's to me is the tragedy. But I'm really so I'm really scared that the success of this weekend will mean that we're going to centralize more into France and Spain.
And that's great for French fans and great for Spanish fans, but you can't just have a an LEC where with with two fan bases.
>> Well, it's still better than it just being Berlin. I'd like >> Well, it's better than it's better than it being.
>> It is, but here's the problem. We're actually going to end up though in a scenario where it's not one of the other. Like the implication is it'll just be online except when you do these home stands. So it might be no but online which is worse but then also even though it's better for cost cutting but then only you go to these venues that are like that cuz by the way I'll tell you that I'll tie this to the last topic. I'll tell you the other reason why Arbid doesn't make the list because the knock on Arbid always was a chalker.
Then he got the two years where he played in a studio every single time.
Got to win championships and make a fight. He never PLAYED IN A BLOODY ARENA. HE WAS JUST in a studio still essentially. He just s up and you know the hypnotism joke would be right. You hypnotize something you are in the GROUP STAGE. HE BASICALLY WAS. THEY JUST CALLED IT THE FINALS AND HE GOT TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP.
>> He played he played a final in his career and it didn't go well and he played he played against EG and Jojo and his number >> that was baby Jojo. That was fetus. That wasn't even the guy now who's really good.
>> But I will say that like the Yeah. So so massive success. So, so like let's be clear, massive success, but I hope that they make it like they don't go 100% France Spain. I hope they go like 60 or 80% France Spain and then they like use some of that budget to like uh expand it.
>> I just want to see an LC event in London again because it's just really convenient for me basically. Hey, MSI was great there, worlds is great there.
They've actually I think they even like God, there was even like some political consider like some maybe like City Khan or whatever was like saying he wants to like enable some more esports stuff in in London. I mean, being selfishly, I want them to go to like the NEC or someone outside of London for once because god damn, London's really expensive to live in and get to. But, um, yeah, the the question is, look, I think there's a good thing these road shows are happening and like obviously we wanted to talk about every single region here and I think that um, let's kind of compare this to NA in this case because there was I think it was >> um, some tweets going between MarkX and I think it was Ash Goyle talking about it, >> okay, >> about like, well, why is why is the LCS studio shut? Why why are we playing games with no crowd and stuff like that?
>> Um and I don't think people realize how much it costs to run a studio for a day, >> especially in LA. Yeah, absolutely. It's like so so like if you're running without front of house and security and you'll have some security on form anyway, but if you're not hiring the extra security for um the crowd and you don't have catering and you don't have other things which are specifically there for the fans and a bunch of other things um like that too, it's still probably going to spend about what >> 40 to 50 grand for a day. About that.
You've got some um highly trained um specialists on their job in terms of directors, cameramen, um makeup artists, you have lighting, you have um EVs, you have observers, you have different kinds of directors, you have writers. Uh >> sweet, you know, when you just said there, cameramen, I'll give you an example because at one point I actually got to work on American TV in Counter-Strike. There's a type of camera that people have seen where it looks like you're almost like in some sci-fi movie, you know, it's like a huge one in front of you. That is a specialized type of role that you have to like train to host that camera where you and basically I heard those guys get some crazy like, you know, like 10k a day day rate or something nuts. It's like some specialist. It's not like a random guy you just handed a C. So small thing. And by the way, the other thing like you're saying things like security also cost a lot. If you have to run security all day long and have proper like metal dete.
That's not cheap. That's not like a few hundred dollars guys. That's thousands of dollars a day. Yeah. But it's not it's not it's not like minimum wage.
These are like trained professionals.
You want them to be right. But I mean in terms of like LEC production room, there's got to be like a dozen people or more in there and all of them have got to have, you know, you got to pay them, right? You got to pay them. And like that's just for running it without the security. Now obviously running that. So that is kind of agnostic of um that's agnostic of security or just in-person considerations. But I, you know, some of the comments were effectively to the tune of, um, can you not make back your money by selling seats? And the answer is when you're selling them at under like 30 quid, [ __ ] no. You are nowhere close. Even if you sell out every day, which you won't do for mid-split particularly, you'll sell it for like first week and last week and then everything else in between is like if you have a really hype matchup, you will do. You mean even if you sell out to like 200 people or whatever spending whatever you're not even getting it's it's >> I always tell people the real problem everyone has almost economically as a consumer is you have to know the specialist considerations of each field to know what actually a fair price is.
So the example I always give in esports is people want to for status be in the same sort of stadium that would have like Taylor Swift in but the Taylor Swift ticket would cost £500. It wouldn't be like 40 and then we [ __ ] about it being 40. Like it would be 500 and it would be like 3 hours by the way.
It wouldn't be like a 7h hour event like we're doing. So the problem is our margins are so off traditional sports and media that we have a really hard time making them balance out. Yeah, absolutely. When you mention that too, there's actually a thing called blue dot fever happening right now which has been a phenomenon which has been cropping up in this like last half year or so which is effectively I think since co venues lost so much [ __ ] money to cancel tours because hundreds of tours and hundreds of days of venues had to go silently.
>> Um venues have gotten really strict on who they're letting into venues and how much they have to sell. And blue dot fever is a very if you go on like um you know like your ticket master or whatever ticket site you go on to it's the blue dots for available seats and they're just not selling out. So there are actually quite famous artists who just cannot fill out big venues anymore. they would have done, you know, six years ago. They would have done even, you know, like there are like bands which like Mly Crew is a te is a band which is still doing tours and I know they're from the 80s and the '90s and whatever, but like I mean, God's sake, I mean, like the first gig I ever went to was Deep Purple and like while they were around in like the 70s or whatever, they still sell out or were selling out crowds now. I'm not sure many bands even from nowadays, right, who are slight, you know, um, even if they are timeless or whatever, a lot of big bands who used to make that cut before wouldn't. So, this is actually not just a league thing. This is also just a lot of different venues across the world right now are really hard to fill out. Now, you're in like Tij affordable tickets, which is great. I think these tickets should be available. I think tickets should be affordable for most kind of live entertainment to stop it from being gatekeep from, you know, the the rich and powerful. Make sure that people can see the arts and stuff that entertain them. It does affect our society. um you know you know cultural stuff aside I mean if you're talking about LC and LCS and stuff like that it's really hard to put on live events in the current culture right now when everyone has less money to spend people are spending less stuff anyway and venues are harder to rent than ever so I think that's actually an important >> one thing you bring up here as well you alluded to it before as well is another thing you can do is I can tell you it was something like just over three years ago because I remember it was before we had a major in Paris in Counterstrike where actually Mcron himself look obviously he didn't do it his secretary he'll have written the message or whatever But he did like a tweet basically where he said and did a speech where he said I actually want France to host all the major esports. And then this is how I know he didn't do it. He even name checked like the CS major, the international endor and the League of Legends wheelch.
But whatever the point was the reason the gesture was significant was when you say that as the government, you're also sort of implying and we'll grease some of the wheels to make it happen. like if you need a stadium, maybe we help you out with like I don't know, we you don't have to pay a license or we give you a cheaper thing or we we there's another one. Yeah, we we ensure you'll go all get the visas to get in the country, whatever it might be. So that's actually an angle that's actually an underrated one for people. If people hate how the government spend money anyway, like in the UK famously, we have the national lottery, don't we, that they spend on all these initiatives, then put some of that so that we have an an L EULCS LEC home stand in Wembley or something. That would be cool for the UK, wouldn't it?
beyond just like self-indulgent reasons, there's there's a way we can spend what funds would be wasted on something anyway. It's something we all want.
>> Sure.
>> No, I I agree. And I just on the Macron thing, the when he did the tweet, you know, the um congratulating uh KC for winning EMA Masters, right? You know, clearly they had somebody in the office who was very interested in esports.
>> At least he had the finger on the pulse.
Fair play.
>> Yeah, maybe he's or maybe Macron is just a die hard, right?
But I think France is a special case on this because France have a special cultural budget that is used to promote the French language, >> right?
>> So, so you know if you sing in French uh like there's a certain number of radio slots that have to be filled with songs being sung in French in France and some of this budget >> also if people don't know the reason you actually can't complain when they have the home stand in France and the in-house is French. I believe it's even the law that actually in-house coms have to be French for this reason you're saying Peter >> unless there are specific um kind of like um exceptions to it I think maybe there was a CS major or two that were in English I can't remember but there like by law yeah b it's the same in Spain and places too basically because of like the nature of globalization and like emerging of all cultures languages have been kind of bullied out by English which has happened in a great many places over time I mean um I can understand Why? But it does affect esports and live events of all kinds, too. Funny enough, I think it's Norway which has like I think they use their North Seal oil oil fund to do stuff like that, too. They're just not involved in So, they actually funded a um a roller coaster or a theme park ride at Disney World. Like, that's what they ended up doing there. Some countries just say, you know what, we're going to put something here. We think it's a good investment. People will know more about our country. And like so yeah there's like mastrom in Epcot is is done by done by the Norway like like public public like whatever public investment funded is they've got a similar thing.
>> So what you're saying is you know so they put lots of money into chess because of Magnus Coulson you know we need the next caps to come from Norway you know so like don't invest.
>> Yeah. By the way if there's anyone we need to call out where the [ __ ] ARE THE DANS AT YOU HAD THEM ALL. YOU HAD BS AND FROG AND C WHEREVER YOU GUYS ARE. YOU YOU SHOULD HAVE been balls deep on this.
Exactly. what are you doing?
>> Um, but I mean I think it's interesting the thing that you mentioned in the NA cuz I think the NA ecosystem kind of complicated right now. I think the problem in Brazil is that Riot Brazil like all the teams are like excessively happy with how Riot run their >> live events, right? Like when they do things in a stadium, it's it's really really well done. So So I think that that's that that makes Brazil complicated. I think that China has their system, you know, where lots of teams have their own home things. I didn't realize >> it was what Overwatch League me was meant to have really issue.
>> And not every team has it, but I would say that if you've ever been to one of um ironically, if you've ever been to the RNG room studio, that studio was >> it was really really nice.
>> Pretty expensive upkeep, probably cost them cost them in the long run. But that that venue was super super nice. I haven't been to the IG venue, but it's worth saying that the the owner of IG is like son of the ex- richest man in China. I don't know how where he goes on the team now, but one of the biggest property like developers in in the whole of China >> and and so so basically there are five teams with arenas now and IG the fifth of it. So we have and and the big thing is China is a huge place and every city is very different. So traveling to Shanghai is obviously not possible for a whole bunch of people. You have we and Shien that's where 23 world um finals were held to. So that's like the old capital and there's a lot of cultural stuff there. You have LNG in Sujo NIP in Shenzhen. So NIP obviously like Swedish organization, right? But they they have a huge um like um presence now in LPL.
You have uh gosh, what's the other one I'm forgetting? So you have W and JDGU in Beijing. So that's the capital. The problem with their arena is that it's very far outside the city, so it's hard to travel to it, but it's a huge venue and that that's a really cool one to do.
And then the new one is IG, which is in Shanghai. And the special thing about that is that that building was meant to be I believe a place for Blizzard esports to be broadcast from and then it went unused. So it was like a like so then what they ended up doing is just basically buying the building and completing completing whatever needs to be done there at huge personal expense like basically IG owner was like saying this is the worst investment I've ever made like in monetary wise but I just wanted to do it for the hell of it basically which has been a thing which they've done before and they and now effectively um there was a rumor I think it was >> oh either someone on Waybo or someone talking about on stream might have been Crisp talking about on stream I don't want to misattribute things but there is a rumor effectively where Um, basically they're saying that the the neutral studio in Shanghai will just end up going cuz they don't want to pay rent on it and they'll just give it to IG instead. So the neutral match will happen in IG's arena instead and it can always be improved. Right now they're using folding chairs. They'll get nice chairs at some point. Stuff like that, right? So now you have like five different locations which means that every playoffs is held in one of these locations. So they'll have it there for the entire time. Special place like the grand finals at the end of the year that'll be held in a much larger venue for like summer which is a bit special, a bit larger. But it means they have five different venues they can go towards. So it caters to five different parts of China which are far apart from each other, very different places. So for instance, um when LG kind of got knocked down to the lower group last year, they still sent some of the top teams to play. So there was a BG um top esports game played in their arena despite LG not playing either of those teams in the split just so they could cater that. Um we um in group ascend they hosted because the teams have to travel to location they hosted like a full three days in Shien despite you know we not being part of those games too just two weeks ago I think it was too and it gives them a really good ability to be like keep costs at level not exploding have consistent games in these arenas you still have those skills around and then still cater to different parts of the um audience as well nowhere's going to be able to do that like like LPL and there's no point really doing it in LCK cuz everyone plays a soul and soul such a huge part of their kind of cultural fan base anyway. But in LPL it specifically works very well and nowhere can really replicate that.
>> By the way, I can tell you the reason why in Korea they sometimes go to Busousan is that's just cuz everyone goes for like a beach weekend like that.
The joke is everyone's traveling from Soul to that event. They're not waiting in Busousan. Like yeah, I know what you mean. I've always said, by the way, that's one of the greatest most exaggerated things about Korean esports.
Like it's bloody soul esports, you know?
Like again, I come from the UK. The UK has mainly beyond like the odd thing in Manchester and Birmingham. It's basically London esports like spoiler the area I came from. There's about one other person ever was even in esports in the northeast like it was just a caster and say yes vaguely. So there's no one mate. So oh another thing as well by the way another reason why we need it a bit like the abidagi ankle is cuz I also want that as well. I don't want to one of the things I think so tragic cuz I come from other esports games but watching League of Legends is I have to watch these players. Think about as we said earlier people like your upsets and your visit who took years to get to worlds. That means, by the way, you don't even really know if this guy will choke under the big lights until he's like five years into his career. That's crazy. If you come from another game, like you need to have these people. So, like every LEC final hopefully is in like a big stadium with a massive crowd and the big, you know, the lights and the big and here come to the stage cuz that alone is what gets people that like there's even a thing they did in Counter-Strike where they even though they've now abandoned that venue in Kavitz, they're now in KOF actually in Spand. One of the cool things that SL did in couch I thought it was epic was they put it because Kavitzi was like one of their flagship events for many years.
They put the winner of each year on the steps as you walked up to go to the stage. So if you were in your first final as you're walking up you're seeing wait a minute like Fanatic you're seeing all the legends of the game. That's dope. I want you like that. I want more pressure on you when you're on the stage game. And I'll tell you why. Cuz think of this last home stand. Doesn't it make the player so much sicker when not just Kalista does like a penta when he stands up and does the pop off which is what we obviously have in CS and fight everyone wants that that's the iconic moment you want to have that memory for the event don't you have I think show like that's just dope it's one of the cool aesthetics of esports isn't it >> sure like even even the drama like I mean the thing that made the weekend awesome though was it sucks for the fans who like wanted to watch a show match but the fact that they cancel the show like oh man by the way that's actually Peter that's actually a rare misstep Because I here's where I'm disappointed in those guys is that they actually weren't making enough fake drama. IT WAS REAL DRAMA. I THOUGHT THE WHOLE THING WAS going to be some Kay Fab [ __ ] where they were going to come out and be like, "Of course I wouldn't really let you guys down." And then they just, "What the hell IS THAT? IS THAT CAMLO'S MUSIC?
I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE THAT. I CAN'T BELIEVE in the end it actually was a real drama. They just didn't want to have the match." LIKE WHAT? YOU IDIOTS.
THE WHOLE THE WHOLE BUSINESS IS HAVING DRAMA with each other then playing the matches and it come on.
>> I mean like >> that was the biggest slurp of all time.
I mean, for me, this makes EU more fun because this drama is drama you get in Brazil, like right Oh, by the way, Peter, you even know this better than most because if people don't know, one of the original mad [ __ ] hype games in League of Legends wasn't a big game.
It was when they used to hold the International Wildard qualifier and Turkey would play Brazil. Those stadiums, I used to say that may as well be like the Roman coliseum bang for blood, bro. Those were crazy environments. I mean especially like you go as a Brazilian team away to Turkey you genuinely don't feel you're leaving that like I mean I cannot and you know by when the when Turkey came to Brazil it wasn't quite that hostile but it was pretty bad it was like it was it was AC you know fans and like I mean the drama you get like you have like to give an example not this split but last split the last split finals like the support on the winning team had some beef on with Twitter with the other support and He literally brought his medals and like I love it. I love it.
>> Like four titles had a >> Yes. I love that [ __ ] >> Stuffed in his face and I was like, "Oh, >> exactly. That's Brazil is the region of like the guy with his bicep with just like B gap on it like was that Bron I think it was?
>> It was Bronze Bronze. Um but but we I this is why I've loved Brazil and the fact Europe is getting it is good. uh but but you know like but the yeah but but obviously it's it's centralized in a certain way right so we talked about LPL the only the last region that I kind of want to bring on is LCK right because obviously when we talk about a more mature market we talk about LPL and we talk about LCK and I just wondered if you had any opinion about what LCK were doing uh trying these international home stands because there's a lot of controversy in conventional sports you know you have the NFL I remember the NFL did like a game in in uh England and these kind of Um, so >> I know there's been like some conversations about like the six nations holding games in the US as well from from rugby union. A lot of people want to hold sports matches. I if they're in the US, they want to bring them to like London or somewhere in Europe or to the Middle East or if it's in Europe, they want to go do something in the US as well because they just want to tap into a different consumer base. But there are a lot of controversies you've mentioned because at the end of the day, particularly if it's like Premier League, you don't want to see a Premier League match played on the [ __ ] stage cuz it's meant to be for your local fans like that. that that that's what you're meant to be doing for those kind of things. With esports, it's a little bit different, right?
>> They have the charity shield. So So So for people that don't know, it's like the the champions of the league play the champions of the domestic cup. I think it's the Syria. I think Syria are >> they have a Super Cup. It's called >> Yeah.
>> Well, they have both. I believe in both.
Spain and Italy, they have the same thing where it's like the the cup winner plays the league winner.
>> Yeah. And and it's same in the Premier League, but I but the Premier League is done in in the UK, but I think the Italian or the Spanish one is done somewhere in the Middle East. I don't know if it's in Saudi Arabia. I don't know if it's in Dubai. But but my question so my question for the LCK thing is obviously >> visas are going to be difficult for LPL, right? But for LCK like do you think we're going to see more like do you think that there'll be a in your opinion do you think there'll be an LCK game played in Europe? Do you think there'll be an LCK like road stand done in the US?
>> I mean by the way you can even imply bearing in mind one of the craziest things about English language viewership is for LCK it only seems to get bigger.
Like actually the joke is everyone's become some old bitter jaded [ __ ] boomer in C. Yes. So the only one over the watch Chelsea K now. So and no actually if anything they've got like sort of a foreign home crowd as it were.
I think I think if you had team one play Geng in a [ __ ] home stand in Europe bang. I think have the full stadium.
>> Well didn't Arnold from Geng or was it Papa Smithy said that for because we talked about this on so many insight about back with because this was when I was on there at the end of last year about Casper Cup. Um because cases pick up I'm pretty sure the numbers which the LCS um owners or the LCK owners got given is something like 30% of LCK viewership is global um like a significant chunk of it and I know that there was an owners meeting at some point this year and again this is talked about publicly not leaking anything or anything but um they said that one of the big the biggest avenue which LCK wants to um like it go towards in regards to the LCK is Vietnam because Vietnam is a huge huge market which is why they held the um you know um things in in Vietnam and they what they held a finals in Hong Kong right too right so they've they've tried to do so they've done Hong Kong they've done Vietnam is there a chance of it going elsewhere I think because of the again most of this comes down to economics right yes I think there has to be a chance of that now there's going to be questions about you know the logistics of it you've talked about visas there's travel plans >> there's a lot of red tape I think there would be particularly because LCK is such a international league it would surprise me if they didn't look for at least weekly regular seasons, regular season games like that for just one week going over or weekend going over to um those parts. I think I don't know and I don't have an ear close enough to the ground to think about how the local community would react if you had a lot of finals being played outside of Korea cuz I think at that point that's when you start getting like a little bit of it in terms of like hang on this is still >> that was basically what people didn't like about the Hong Kong one. It was that it was if it just be a game it would be fine but it was the idea of a whip. This is our final story. What about me, the fan who's the career fan?
By the way, along those lines, assuming you, like you say, you don't make it the finals. You make it just like a big game. Basically, I also think an obvious complimentary angle that ties these topics together would be if you were T1 and you were having a home stand in France, just have like KC come and play a show match afterwards or something, you know? Yeah. Do something. So, it adds so there's like a double value for the fan to get the ticket and you get to see Faker and Chroy and then you get to play a match against MCO or something ridiculous. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But I mean for me the reason why I this is in the back of my mind is I I think it's a positive, right? Like I think it's a positive if there is an LCK game in Europe, but I don't think I don't know if I'm in the majority for that, you know, but it's just I've been following the these developments. The thing that frustrates me is >> that it didn't go as well as it could have gone in Vietnam because because of the boycotts. Now, I'm not saying the boycotts were not justified, right? From what I understand, the ticket prices got spiked really really highly.
>> But but you know, I I wouldn't be against like seeing an LCK game in Europe.
>> I think it would be good for for building hype, you know, for league in Europe. I don't think it would take away from from European viewership in the long term. Um but uh but yeah, that that's just what was in the back of my mind seeing seeing these things, right?
Firstly, how how can we diversify our audience away from France or Spain?
Again, not saying that don't want to have the majority in France and Spain, just you know, I don't want 100% to be there. And secondly, what what does this LCK experimentation mean in the long term for Western audiences seeing live events, right?
>> Also, to me, if the viewership is this crazy in English for the LCK finals, then if you are the teams like the G1s and the Gen G, you start to think, well, let me sell some merch to fans that are in France or Spain or let you know the guy who doesn't come to soul on the pilgrimage as it were. Like, what about that guy? If there's actually an audience out there, maybe I want to connect with them. Also, there's the world where then you can get international sponsorships for things that you want to do. It's all it's all got its own value. Can all build in because again, notice with those things, this is if people don't know, even though they're now going to both tell you mcoin case, no, we're making profit on I don't listen, there's a lot of creative accounting in esports. There's a lot of things where you want to be perceived as being that's irrelevant.
They could actually be losing money because if they do it the right way, those particular orgs, they're viewing that as like a fan building exercise and it will have complimentary value for sponsor activations in the f essentially you're investing now because it'll have extra value later. It doesn't have to itself today pay for itself and totally justify itself. There's a way it can build in other things, which is also why I agree with Peter. The other real actually like canary in the coal mine is will G2 just never ever do anything? If they're just going to sit and do nothing and just be with the number one team in the league, that will imply to me that they're lacking something that we're saying. They're lacking some logistic component, maybe they don't have a dedicated fan base that they believe they can capture more. So, I also want to see in the future if this model works, surely eventually people like G2 also find a way to get involved and have their own.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Then obviously like I know we kind like touched on NA already. That's the one which I find a little bit more difficult because um all look I I think like the LA audience people don't already kind of struggle to turn up towards the LA studio stuff which again why they they did do that. I understand why they started you know deincentivizing kind of or like depp prioritizing um NALCS stuff over over um Valerant for a couple of things that they've done. I mean the big thing for that is like the Jinxy tournament right where there is still interest in League if you get the right people involved. And this is something, you know, I've mentioned this a fair amount in the co-streaming kind of debate about actually I think there's real power in getting huge figures from elsewhere into League, even if it is just a.1% conversion rate. If you get people interested in turning up and watching League from one event like that, which has like a crazy like 800,000 p um peak, that's lightning in the bottom. That probably won't happen.
>> And here's the thing, mate. NA also that this is where NA can sometimes be silly.
What you got to do in any region is look at what you already have. What resource do you have? NA has all the giant streamers, the the variety streamers that you say, oh, it's XQC or some they already have all those people. So, you may as well the joke is why try and build up a a non-existent league thing when you could just people would actually rather watch XQC play the game probably than Double Lift now. That's just reality.
>> I I mean, we know this because they had the Jinx Jinxy, is that how you pronounce this? Like they did a streamer tournament where like they had people like every team had a pro or like a top tier streamer. You had a challenger player in in every role, but they were forced to play support on a limited amount of champions. They couldn't take over the game. So basically, they became like team shot callers and they would like micromanage. You had players like So you had players like double lift or Tyler one or um those dancers effectively playing support half of them molding because Tyler one's just sat there like my top ler doesn't know how to press R. Legitimately doesn't know how to press R on Malight. And you know, I would sit there and watch that twice over than a regular season game. Like I would watch that and I sat up not just because they got drops through. Riot did get it really right there in terms of giving drops for that event which they you know um doesn't happen with a lot of esports in a lot of places but that is exactly how you tap into existing fan base and that is like that is my golden standard of how league should be building back its fan base because league has always struggled to reach um people outside of the people who already play League. So having local events for people to connect with other people that might play League and introduce people who might be out there and have some kind of ground swell from these huge events if you can get those big figures on board I think is that's your gold mine cuz I I think as it stands and before that happened I think NA was in a really weird spot with a lot of it road road trips where I'm like I'm not sure if they'll sell out. I'm not sure how successful they'll be. I don't again I'm not as tied in with the NA system. Yeah.
Um but I'm I'm sure they were good quality events but the question is how how big can you take that and how often can you do that? Well, with having the huge ground swell, now you have interest. Do something with it.
>> I've got one last angle for you. Go on, Peter.
>> No, I just just because people may know what know what this event is. You had a challenger player playing support on like Lulu or Nami or whatever every game. And then the other four players were just variety streamers and like some of them decently, some of them like diamond level, some of them like >> not even pods. I mean, there's a very >> There's someone who' actually never touched the game before literally loading in and say, "Hey, can I use a controller to play this game?" and you see like Tyler one's face literally just drop.
>> So So that's that's what the event was.
>> I'll give you an example also of why I think NA has to approach it differently and their real problem in the League of Legends era is because the Riot is based in LA and in California, they just wanted to have it in their backyard and also as Monty's pointed out many times, they also wanted all the associated status of you have the event in LA and it's in a big venue and then you get to feel like you're part of sports and media and part of Hollywood and all all weird like l [ __ ] that shouldn't really be part of making like a sustainable business. I can tell you the model I think they need to look at in NA is to move away from LA. And here's why.
Because one thing I didn't know myself is when I grew up as a boy and I watched WWF, now WWE and WCW and all these American wrestling shows. To me already it was crazy because of the spectacle.
It's like nothing like you've ever seen.
So American, so big, etc. What I didn't know was this the circuits they made their name and their money off in the early. It wasn't like going to New York.
You do that for like the giant pay-per-view. the rest of it. It was all these backwater places that were the middle of nowhere where there wasn't a load of options for entertainment and you could get a cheap venue and you could find a way to make the costs work and also everything was that also where you put the lesser fighters on and you build up their name and stuff and these small circuits. Well, here's what's funny. They already did that in esports.
That's what MLG did. When MLG did all these console games, they also would go to places that were like Raleigh, North Carolina, Carolina and Ohio and Columbus, like places that aren't, you know, LA and Chicago and the biggest.
They didn't because they knew you can't get straight into the menus. You got to build it up and you got to go small and you've got to get an audience that a year on year knows you're going to come back, etc. So, I also think if with NA since they've somewhat been scaled down, they should just go back to grassroots and build it up that way. Again, I figure I don't know which it would be.
I'm sure you could get some data person who could find this out for you in the modern day. I'm sure there's some smaller place you could go to where if you advertised in advance and set up a massive like home stand type thing, you'd probably fill the venue in a way that sadly in LA you might not because on a Saturday night in LA people go do whatever they want, can't they? Sure.
Fair enough. Yeah. Good point. For sure.
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