We Worked in the Same Hospital, Now My Sister is Dead

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]I was working in the emergency room. My sister at that time was a healthy, happy nurse triaging patient. She had her own home health care business. She worked the night shift. And after I would see patients in the emergency room, I would go up and hang out with her. And we always had a great time. And she was so proud of me of saying, "This is my brother, Dr. Marlin." And we would talk about stuff we did when we were growing up and how cool it was that we were working together in the same healthcare space at that time. I got a call from my mom and she said Amber did something to herself.

[00:00:34]Because I'm a crisis director and I'm working in a department where we typically see people struggling with mental health issues working in a hospital. My initial reaction is, okay, what can I do to get into action to help my sister? On my way there, um the phone rings and it's the coroner who says, "What do you want to do with her body?

[00:00:56]because you're the next emergency contact listed. My sister also had a daughter who was 13 years old at the time of her mother's death and she was the first person to find her mother and that really stung.

[00:01:11]>> Life is a roller coaster of heartbreak, hope, tragedy, and triumph.

[00:01:17]Here we dive into the stories behind the hardest moments and the humans who survive them. Welcome to the Roller Coaster Podcast. My name is Tyler Hall.

[00:01:27]This community has just exploded and I want to create a way to bring us all together regardless of where you're at in the world or where you may live.

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[00:01:38]Every piece of Dayby-day Apparel is a reminder that we get through life one day at a time. And if you decide to pick something up, it genuinely helps support the podcast. Click the link in the pin comment below. Now, let's jump into the episode. Thank you, Dr. Marlin. Welcome to the Roller Coaster Podcast.

[00:01:56]>> Thanks for having me.

[00:01:57]>> Appreciate you being here. You have a PhD in psychology and you understand suicide from a clinical standpoint probably as well or better than anybody that I've had the opportunity to talk to.

[00:02:09]>> But on December 31st, 2013, you would have a totally different very personal experience about suicide. So take us back to that day and in detail describe the events of that day.

[00:02:26]Anything useful leading up to that day and um you know from the moment that you woke up to the time that you went to bed, what occurred for you on that day?

[00:02:36]>> Wow. Thank you for that. Um I remember very clearly um obviously when you have something like that traumatically happen to you. I lost my sister that day, December 31st. And uh I actually was working as a crisis director. Um I'm originally from Indiana. And I was at work that afternoon about 11:30 exactly.

[00:02:57]And I was at lunch with my my boss, my supervisor, kind of talking about the end of the day. Had plans to celebrate the new year. It was um actually my pastor's birthday, so we had plans to celebrate him. And um I got a call from my mom and she said Amber did something to herself.

[00:03:20]And now mind you um because I'm a crisis director and I'm working in a department where we typically see people struggling with mental health issues working in a hospital um my initial reaction is okay what can I do to get into action to help my sister? Now mind you, my sister was a nurse and so she worked in the health care space as well and I knew she had been struggling that year um with a lot of life issues, divorce, job, you name it. Uh but at that moment when I got that call, my first reaction was what can I do to help my sister? So I told my boss, I said something's up with my sister. I need to go back to my office and find out what's going on. and um walked down the hallway, got to my office, got on the phone, and immediately called the emergency room because I was typically used to working with hospitals and emergency rooms because that's where people were showing up for their emergencies for a mental health crisis. So, I called the hospital in my hometown and I said, "This is Dr. Rollins. I need to speak with the charge nurse. I understand you have a patient there possibly who's in distress." And at that moment, I heard my mother screaming in the background. I knew her voice in the emergency room. And I was like, "That sounds like my mom." Now, mind you, I'm trying to be professional taking this call, trying to get through, jumping through the ropes of the triage, if you will. And at that moment, I learned the charge said, "I'm sorry, Dr. Rollins. It sounds like there was a firearm that was involved."

[00:05:01]And my heart just dropped at that moment. And I realized that this is more devastating than just simply her doing something to hurt herself. And I went back to my boss's office and um another co-artner of mine who was an executive on our outpatient program uh was there and I said, "My sister used a firearm."

[00:05:28]And I just started to weep. I'd never forget just embracing my boss and my coworker tearfully. And she was like, "You can go. You can go." And um so I left work immediately, got to my car and was just reaching out for anybody to help quite frankly of like, "Okay, I need to get there as soon as possible."

[00:05:53]Um, and on my way there, um, the phone rings and, um, and I answer and it's the coroner who says, "What do you want to do with her body?" Cuz you're the next emergency contact listed.

[00:06:12]And I somehow got from the hospital to there. I just froze and everything else went blank. I just went to the hospital.

[00:06:21]And um that day right there, the end of the year, 2013, December 31st, changed the way that I saw myself, the work that I was doing, um and kind of put me on a trajectory for change.

[00:06:39]Um but at that moment, I felt just broken because it was my job to be a crisis director. We saw people like this every day. And I felt like I had failed my sister in some way because I wasn't able to help her in that moment. And I kept asking, why didn't you just call me?

[00:07:02]And now leading up to that, earlier that year, 6 months prior, um I had actually admitted my hos, my sister to the hospital where I was working as a crisis director because she had called me one day and I could tell that she was delusional. She was had all this rapid speech and I was like, "My sister's in trouble. I'm going to go help her out."

[00:07:29]Um, and I went and got her. Uh, she had gotten into, uh, an altercation with her ex-husband at the time. They were going through a divorce that was pretty toxic.

[00:07:41]And, uh, she was going through like a psychotic manic episode. And I took her to by protocol, took her to her psychologist. We sat down and psychologist looking at me like, "She's not okay." And I like, "I know she's not okay. I need you to make the order to send her to the hospital." and I took her to where I was working about an hour away uh and got her admitted, triaged her and she spent 10 days in a psychiatric hospital getting stabilized.

[00:08:06]And backing up a little further, um the year prior to that, my sister and I had were working in the same hospital back in um our hometown. It was Ball Hospital actually. And um I was working in the emergency room. My sister at that time was a healthy, happy nurse triaging patient. She had her own home health care business. She worked the night shift. And after I would see patients in the emergency room, I would go up and hang out with her. And we always had a great time. And she was so proud of me of saying, "This is my brother, Dr. Marlin." And uh we would talk about stuff we did when we were growing up and how cool it was that we were working together in the same healthcare space at that time. And we talked about she said, "Hey, I got my own home healthcare business. Maybe you and I one day we can work together. You can be the therapist and I can be the nurse and we're going to rock this together and help people."

[00:09:05]Which was awesome. I was like, "This is so cool." Um just that year later, I took a promotion to move to another city uh away from that organization.

[00:09:15]And what really struck me as I look back at that moment is the time that my sister uh ended her life, she was uh actually in treatment after she had been discharged from our program, our hospital. She went back to our hometown and she was enrolled in the same community mental health center that I was working for in the emergency room, front lines, working alongside other nurses and physicians. And I remember thinking back, what was the responsibility of that organization to do differently after my sister died?

[00:09:55]Did it matter? Um, and during orientation, I thought like I start going through my mind this this clinical autopsy, if you will, trying to figure out how did we get from here to here?

[00:10:08]How did this happen? What was missed?

[00:10:11]what should I have done differently?

[00:10:14]And I remember my orientation when I started that job working in the hospital where my sister was also working. We were the community mental health system system that was partnered with the local hospital.

[00:10:26]And I remember sitting in the boardroom and the CEO would come in and he would introduce himself to all of the uh new employees and you got to ask questions and I said, "Oh, this is cool. Let me talk to the CEO." because I was so passionate about behavioral health. Now mind you, I had been working in clinical practice, got my doctorate degree um and I was excited about working in this space. I had spent some years working in the school system helping kids who were struggling with suicidality uh prior to that. But after I got my doctorate, I wanted to do something more. And so I found this job. I sat down with the CEO with a group of other employees and I asked him this important question. And I said, "Hey, what can we do about prevention of behavioral health and mental health issues?" And I never forget, he said, "There's no money in prevention."

[00:11:15]And I was like, "What do you mean?" And I sat and I thought about it and I thought about it and I was like, "If there's no money in prevention, then then something must be broken here. Something must be off." And I kept going back to that. It's like is that the belief of the leadership within certain health care systems that there's it's a waste of time to prevent deterioration of someone's life? I remember calling the director uh after my sister died. She was my supervisor and I was like, you know, you could have called me and checked on, you know, my sister was enrolled in your program. It would have been okay for you to just offer. And I asked her, are you going to do anything different?

[00:12:01]Well, you know, these things happen. And you know, people die by suicide. And I just began at that point to get very I was hurt. I was frustrated. Um I felt like the life of my sister should make a difference somewhere.

[00:12:17]And I was fortunate because the company that I was working for at that time because I had a good reputation with my cohort. They knew that the role that I had as a director of operations at the front door of the psychiatric hospital and the front door of this this large mental health provider in the city of Indianapolis. It was important and the next year like following that 2014 um we received a grant for $2.4 million. It was a Garrett Lee Smith suicide prevention, zero suicide prevention grant that I was working with that company. So, they were investing in suicide prevention.

[00:13:02]And now, mind you, I wasn't ready to just go back to work because I found myself frozen in my own office looking at patients charts that said suicide or I was in a meeting that somebody said suicide and I just felt like somebody just punched me in the heart. every time I heard the word. And I worked with nurses everywhere. So, anybody who wore scrubs, somebody looked a little bit like my sister, I found myself frozen like, "Wow."

[00:13:33]And I remember when they were making the official announcement, we were in executive meeting and they were talking to all the directors that next first quarter and our vice president was standing up about how excited we are about getting this suicide prevention grant and how we're going to roll it out. And she kept saying, "Suicide is preventable. Suicide is preventable."

[00:13:55]And I'm sitting in the front row listening to this and and it felt like every time she said the word suicide, it felt like somebody threw a dagger across the room. Like it just hit me and I had to get up and leave and I was in the hallway just balling and and I realized that I still was hurt by all of this trying to show up every day but I wasn't taking care of myself.

[00:14:19]and a co-orker who saw me, actually the same co-orker who was there um came to my aid and she gave me the biggest hug and I just cried and just let it out and I realized it wasn't something that I could get away from. I couldn't hide suicide. I I was in a place where I had to talk about it. Um, so I went to therapy and I did all the therapy stuff, but I also found that even the therapist that I was working with, um, he was so taken aback by the story. It was like I was just telling him like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe this has happened. This has happened." Like he was overwhelmed by it. Um, so I didn't feel like he really heard me. He was there listening. He created space for me, but there was also kind of a lack of really understanding of like what to do now. And I didn't know what to do with it. All I know is that it hurt.

[00:15:14]And uh it was actually my supervisor who came to me and she said, "I see that you're struggling. How are you?" Cuz people typically will come to you and they'll ask you, "Are you okay?" And mind you, this same group of individuals had known my sister because she spent 10 days in that hospital. So there was everybody felt a sense of responsibility. Everybody knew that she was a nurse. Everybody knew it. and they knew the closeness that we had. Um, so people kind of tiptoe around, but it was something we all knew was important. And um, what I was struggling with at that point or what the organization was struggling with is because we were the behavioral health psychiatric hospital uh, and we had other med surge that were different disciplines working on the physical health, oncology, uh, cancer, you name it. And they were trying to roll out now this program called zero suicide throughout the entire health care system. And nobody was really listening at that time. You know, mental health was not that popular. We I called it kind of like the redheaded stepchild. It's like the part of the healthc care that you don't really talk about. It's just like h you know, that's behavior health. That's one of those people over there. It's not us.

[00:16:30]And so significant amount of stigma that people were dismissing the importance of mental health and well-being and suicide prevention.

[00:16:40]So my boss came to me and she just kind of challenged me. She said, "When you're ready, you know, you should probably tell this story because we're having a hard time getting pay attention to get people to buy into like the importance of suicide prevention."

[00:16:55]And so I thought about it and thought about it and we had a meeting about zero suicide prevention. Everybody had to show up because the CEO of that hospital system made it important. And he said, "Everybody has to talk about this. We're going to we've got this grant. We're going to do something about it. What does it look like throughout all of our health care system?" Mind you, it was like seven hospitals.

[00:17:17]And um I remember standing up and telling her I put my sister's picture on and I said, "This is my sister. Her name is Amber. She was an amazing nurse. This is what happened to her. She ended her life. And I told the story of our relationship. This is my older sister.

[00:17:36]It's just me and her growing up together. She's two years older than me.

[00:17:40]This is my first babysitter and she's gone, right? And here's the stigma.

[00:17:46]Here's what we can do. And I started looking around. I saw the other nurses.

[00:17:49]I saw doctors with tears in their eyes.

[00:17:52]And I realized, oh, wait a minute.

[00:17:55]My sister's life has meaning here.

[00:17:59]The story is important.

[00:18:02]And that opened up people's hearts and minds to the possibility that wait a minute, we can do something about that because suicide prevention belonged in the place of oncology and maternity and cancer and all of these other parts of the health care system. People were struggling, right? It wasn't just like those people, physicians who were struggling with it. Nurses that I talked to would come through the crisis department and I would talk and I would triage to them and and they didn't want to live. And I would say, "This is what happened. This is how important your life is." Now, mind you, my sister also had a um a daughter who was 13 years old at the time of her mother's death and she was the first person to find her mother.

[00:18:48]And that really stung. And I remember my sister um saying, you know, make sure my daughter's okay. She's a teenage girl now. And I know how I was. And now she didn't talk to me before she before she passed away. But we had conversations leading up to that. And I knew that this one girl, my sister's daughter, was the most important thing to her.

[00:19:13]But my sister sent this message to her unintentionally that um she wasn't enough in her own view, right? And some people call all people die by suit like how selfish could she be. Like my sister was in a point where she believed that she was a burden as a mother because she felt like she was not good enough. Things were not working for her. She couldn't get her life back on track. She felt weak. She was struggling with an addiction that was uncovered.

[00:19:42]And as a nurse, if you struggle with addiction, they'll pull you off. So, her license got suspended. She felt like she wasn't herself anymore.

[00:19:53]The divorce was finalized. She had no nursing job. She was homeless at one point, right? She was a fighter. I'm going to do this. I'm gonna She had hustle, right? But she got the end of that year and didn't ask for help in the right way.

[00:20:11]and it left my niece scarred, I would say traumatized, crying out for her mother, not knowing what to do. And so I spent a lot of time with her daughter, making sure that she was okay, trying to rebuild her. If I asked her today, she wouldn't remember anything that happened for the next two or three years. It's just kind of like a blank blur for her.

[00:20:33]Um, so she's done some healing. I've brought her out to speak with me to tell her story. I had her actually write a chapter in a book that I published um dedicated to my sister to help her find a voice and platform to make meaning out of it.

[00:20:50]Um, so those are some of the things that came to light and um, so I've made a commitment to do all the work that I'm doing is to honor her um, that allows me to have this sense of keeping my sister with me to do something meaningful with her life that she's just not gone but there's something more that needs to be done.

[00:21:14]And I remember then getting involved in the U National Suicide Lifeline Steering Committee. And at the time it was still a 1-800 number, 1-800273 talk. And I remember going to the meetings and I would say if the number was shorter, my sister might have been able to remember a shorter number. And we were still talking at the time in the committee of like what's the number going to be? And it was called N11. Okay. Now it's 988.

[00:21:41]had launched in July of 2022.

[00:21:45]But at the time, I remember even being frustrated with that system in that who would remember in the point of a crisis 1 800 273 talk, right? And we debated about it. So it took from 2014 and even before that 156 2022 before that actually launched and and now it's an easy number to remember and that's one system. um that I'm grateful that I had a voice at least at the table to talk about why this was important um because it's not something you think of in a crisis and now it's easy to remember and I encourage people to use it, call it. Even if you're not in a crisis, if you're trying to help someone, call it.

[00:22:28]Um but after that loss, I spent about another 3 years at that organization and um it really compelled me for me to understand that true change started with better leadership and being in a position to make a difference because the difference that I saw between one CEO to another CEO changed the trajectory and the culture of an organization that was helping >> hundreds and thousands of people every day. And that's when I sought out opportunities in and California was one of those. So in 2016 in the summer um I took a job because I wanted as an executive of a psychiatric hospital, chief operating officer. Uh and and now that's positioned me moving all through the state of California as a COO, as a CEO of some of the largest behavioral health organizations.

[00:23:22]Um but I wanted to empower myself. Um, I'll never forget at there was a point in time that the director of the crisis line at the time, he was a good friend of mine, uh, his name was Dr. John Draper, uh, I shared with him the first time that my sister, my my niece, excuse me, sent wrote a letter about what happened with her mother. And, um, when I told him what happened with my sister, he was like, "It's a gift."

[00:23:51]And at first I was appalled that he said that.

[00:23:56]And over the years I've began to understand a little bit more and a little bit more of the gift of responsibility that comes with that.

[00:24:06]That now it becomes powerful if I tell the truth about what happened. It becomes a place of change.

[00:24:16]Um because I refused to just let her life just go on without um like she didn't finish her purpose of helping and healing people. But in her death, I can take her story and what her her personal mission was and add it on to mine and it adds to my own purpose to drive change in the health care system and help other people, help other therapists, help other leaders understand the importance of this. The sad thing is that we're still not talking enough about suicide prevention. And I remember in there was a goal that was set out in 2014 15 the CDC was seeing this as an issue that they and they set a goal that they wanted to reduce the number of suicides by I think 15 to 20% over the next 5 years from 2015 to 2020. Well, that didn't happen. In fact, we've seen suicide rates go up 20 to 30% in that same time period. So, not enough is being done in that space. And so, um, I take it as a call to action. Like, it's still not finished. I'm still here.

[00:25:30]I'm still breathing. I still have a niece who, uh, needs to have a voice.

[00:25:34]She's an incredible writer. Um, and I want to see a better pathway for her cuz she's obviously had struggles after the death, you know, thinking that she can she should leave here too at times. And I want to give her a different voice, a different path. And trust me, I've looked at my own livelihood, if you will, because me and my sister, we grow up in the same space, right? And so, as a suicide loss survivor, um I recognize that um our risk, if you will, goes up when you have that in your family. Not because I asked for it, because it happened. And you know, so I refuse to just allow that to overtake myself or my niece. Uh, and I also have recognized that it's not something I can do by myself. That you need other people. You need other organizations.

[00:26:29]You need connection to make your purpose work.

[00:26:33]Right? So this has not worked against but more needs to be done. more loss survivors, more attempt survivors, you know, who have thought that this was the answer to their pain.

[00:26:45]Uh, but that was the greatest lie.

[00:26:48]Um, so that's my story long and short, the before and after, leaving out some details, but enough to kind of give you a sense. Um, for me, this is still a call of action.

[00:27:02]And um I want to urge it's it's sadly now one of the second leading causes of death suicide for people ages 10 okay to 30s 30s4s second leading cause of death. Now we hear about oh it's the 10th leading cause of death. Well that's lifetime.

[00:27:22]Okay we know as we age typically other physical conditions take over. For instance cancer, heart disease those are leading causes of death. uh and has always felt like suicide and mental health has been kind of pushed to the back. But when you think about a 10-year-old, 11year-old, 12y old, what's happening between the ages of 10, 30, and 40 that we see these such high numbers?

[00:27:45]Well, these are transition spots that we all go through in our life, right? And many are being pushed to the margin, dealing with anxiety, stress, having troubles getting access to the help that they need. So now I do a lot of training with organizations using social media, using my voice to tell the story and really come up with real strategies of what we can do. Uh and there's a lot being done out there, but we're not talking enough about it >> uh in the right way in healthy ways.

[00:28:17]Um, you know, I will say too because my my niece is now a mother and she will be 26 this year.

[00:28:31]Um, she has a daughter and last year her father also ended his life, the father of her child ended his life by suicide the week before Father's Day. also with a lethal firearm.

[00:28:51]And so I think of my niece who's now been hit by this twice and this beautiful daughter who carries my sister's namesake who has now lost both her father, biological father and her brother grandmother to suicide and she will never know them.

[00:29:13]And so this is a generational issue for me. So it's very personal on that piece of it because I I think about what this girl, she's beautiful, she's smart, she's the cutest little thing. She has no idea about the turmoil about some of the most meaningful figures I would say, a little girl's father and their grandmother have both ended their life by way of a firearm from emotional pain and shame.

[00:29:41]And so I took that death at which stung me hard, harder than I had thought and realized that, oh, I have a responsibility here, too. And so I've been putting more and more momentum into calling into more purpose of people who are survivors around me. Uh my wife is a suicide loss survivor of her mother and the reason that she is my wife more so another than the fact that she loves me and I love her but I wanted my niece to see someone who was also a suicide loss survivor of their mother and was doing great and and she's loved because I wanted her to know that. And so all of those things create more momentum and meaning for me even though as painful as it is, it creates purpose and um I found that greater through connection um by healing myself and um and that's been my journey. I would say that I focused a lot on the external systems for a while especially while I was in California. It was like my way to fix myself, right? Was fixing other organizations and all the systems. And you know, as a man, I found like, okay, we have a tendency to fix like we're the fixers. And guess what? We tend to neglect ourselves a lot. Fixing everybody else. Broken inside. It feels that way. If I can just fix everything around me. Um, and so there was a moment, um, even reflecting on, um, the death of my niece's child's father of like, wait a minute, I have to attend to Marlin.

[00:31:30]And so, putting together a framework of how to do that, what it looks like, uh, learning to really love myself, learning how to forgive myself, getting into group. Um I'm a co-f facilitator also with Morning Glory and which is a suicide loss survivor group and being a part of that community of other loss survivors has helped me gain more ground. Uh doing individual therapy doing all those things um has helped me gain more clarity and find my center again after uh after that trauma. And and that's what we really have to do is kind of reenter instead of becoming falling into the victimhood, which happens a lot.

[00:32:12]Um it's part of my story, but it's not going to be the end. It's just a chapter, right? And I'm writing the rest of it to create a story of a hero who's overcome, but also is also has his own vulnerabilities.

[00:32:28]>> Yeah.

[00:32:29]>> Right.

[00:32:30]>> It's really good.

[00:32:32]I just want to I want to first say that I'm sorry.

[00:32:35]>> Thanks.

[00:32:37]>> I think it's um I know it's been 10 years.

[00:32:42]>> I know you've done a lot of work.

[00:32:44]>> I know you've healed a lot, >> but I just want you to know that I'm sorry.

[00:32:49]>> Thank you. That means a lot.

[00:32:52]>> Look, we can't reverse time. We can't go back obviously and change anything. And I know a lot of the guilt that suicide loss survivors face is >> questions of what if.

[00:33:05]>> Mhm.

[00:33:08]>> I want to ask you the question because I think that you're going to have a perspective on this.

[00:33:12]>> If you could go back and do something different to save your dear sister, what would that have been?

[00:33:24]Oh, got her in better treatment.

[00:33:32]Honestly, if there was one thing that I could have done, it was got her found out what kind of treatment that she was getting. Um, yeah, I would have made sure that there wasn't a firearm in the home.

[00:33:48]That's probably number one.

[00:33:51]getting easier access to help and less access to something lethal like that.

[00:34:01]>> You know, um I had actually saw her on Christmas day and I knew that she was down. I could see the depression and she gave me a big hug and she said, "I'm so sorry." cuz you know she had gotten really angry and irritable just like you expect when somebody when they're really depressed and stressed out and she gave me this big hug and we sat and we laughed and talked and I was trying to lift her spirit but I knew she wasn't okay and I didn't ask hey are you having any thoughts of wanting to end your life or anything like that and so I would have asked the question right not out of fear like oh my gosh she said yes but letting her trust trust me with what's going on.

[00:34:47]So sometimes we get afraid to really ask that question when we see somebody struggling and I think that's number one is like and like what if they say yes what do we do then right and what if they say no and they're not telling us the truth right you can always say I'm still here for you I love you if you are struggling reach out you know call me you know I'm going to check back up into you in a couple days just to be for right. Those are the things I think I would say differently. You know, um you know, if I was just an everyday Joe, not in the mental health field, I would be like saying, "Hey, let's call 988. Let's text it together. Hey, did you call yet?

[00:35:31]I'm just concerned about you." You know, those kind of things. And expect the other person to be irritated about it a little bit, but at the same time, you're loving them, right? If somebody is in that space of contemplating suicide, you're not going to give them the thought that's already there.

[00:35:46]>> There you go. I think that's so many people's fear, right? I I did this um >> Well said, by the way. I know it's a hard question, but I think your perspective on it on what you would have done differently is going to be useful for people when they encounter friends or loved ones that have suicidal ideation.

[00:36:04]>> Yeah. Um, I did this training through the Stay Here organization, which if you don't know them, I want to introduce you. I've become close to >> the CEO. His name is Jacob Coin, >> and he's amazing, and he's lost three very close relatives to suicide.

[00:36:25]Mhm.

[00:36:27]>> And I did a suicide prevention course that they offer online.

[00:36:34]Um, and one of the things that they talk about is this misconception that if you ask somebody if they're having suicidal thoughts that it's going to plant >> the thought into their mind and next thing you know they're going to they're going to >> take their life. And it's just not true.

[00:36:53]>> Mhm.

[00:36:55]Um, you mentioned this letter that your niece wrote.

[00:37:00]>> Do you still have that?

[00:37:01]>> I still have it. Yes.

[00:37:02]>> Is that something you'd be willing to read?

[00:37:04]>> Yeah, absolutely.

[00:37:05]>> Do you have access to it now?

[00:37:06]>> I I do have access to it now.

[00:37:08]>> Okay.

[00:37:08]>> Wow. I'm happy to read it if you >> I'd love to do that.

[00:37:12]>> Okay.

[00:37:14]>> It's uh he's opening up one of his books.

[00:37:18]This one is uh healing the impoverished mind building resilience through adversity and in this book chapter 10 it's called a daughter's words is the exact letter that my niece wrote at the age of 14.

[00:37:42]>> This is one year after she lost her mom to suicide.

[00:37:47]Um, so I'll read you a little bit of the intro because it's short and then just the letter itself. Um, and I I wrote the person most impacted by my sister's death was my niece. Her mother was the greatest caring force in her life. This chapter is an intimate description of my niece's account of what led up to and happened on that day my sister died. Sadly, my niece had to witness the traumatic death up close at the age of 13, a critical time in a young woman's life. She wrote this manuscript a year later uh for a class in school. I included it here to acknowledge her healing and to honor the memory of her mother. My hope is that it gives perspective on devastating impact of suicide. Knowing that her daughter will be absent, this beautiful person that was her mother, we find ways to honor those we lost. Here is her tribute.

[00:38:45]She writes, "Amber Rose, the true definition of beauty, but not the type of beauty you see in a perfect skin, a flawless smile, and eyes so bright like the stars in the sky." She was the type of beauty that was brave, intelligent, and stubborn.

[00:39:03]the kind of beauty you search for all over but can never find.

[00:39:08]She was the true definition of the phrase perfectly imperfect.

[00:39:12]With her wild childhood curls that she had hid with relaxers and straighteners, her chipped for left front tooth from falling off the monkey bars in the park, but her smile still managed to light up the whole room. The way hundreds of freckles were scattered upon her cheeks.

[00:39:28]And the way she had come from so much pain and still managed to give out so much love. The way that she belted her heart out to the songs trying to hit notes she knew never could she could accomplish, but she still did it because she wanted to. The way she gave all her life and love to her only child and struggled to give her her the world. The beautiful woman was my mother, the woman I have and will love more than anything.

[00:39:54]She was my reflection. The way she smiled, laughed, loved, and cried. The day she left me was like her last moments came rushing from her chest and was given back into the wind. The day I lost her wasn't the day she had left me to face the world alone. It was a year before when her depression.

[00:40:15]The world had swallowed her up, making her tired and weak. the day I was forced to stay with my grandmother because my mom wasn't quote stable enough to care for me. It was the day my heart shattered knowing that I wouldn't be able to wake up to every day seeing her smile. Sometimes she would come and visit me and we would embrace each other in tight hugs, hoping never again to be pulled apart from each other's loving arms. These moments are the memories I wish I could watch on replay. to see the way she loved me so much and the way she would never let me go. Her visits became less frequent and more likely harder than ever. I remember I used to wait at the door to see if I'd catch her on her way to or from the bus so I could run up and tell her how much I loved her.

[00:41:07]I started to think she didn't want me to be she didn't want to be with me anymore, that she was off doing other things rather than just spending time with me, her own daughter. Was I not good enough for her anymore? Did she even care?

[00:41:21]The day we reunited was the best day of my life as we ran into each other's arms, knowing that I could have her all to myself. But it wasn't her. She looked different. She had cut her hair. It wasn't to her shoulders anymore. It had been moved up toward her ears now. She seemed weaker than usual. Her smile was fading. It wasn't her. She had become so angry. sometimes to the point where I was afraid to approach her at times, but she would soon soften up. She wouldn't want me to lay with her anymore like we used to. She wanted to be alone. She was shutting me out, and it was almost like I was living with a stranger.

[00:42:03]My mother was leaving me before my very eyes, and I couldn't do anything to stop it, but hold on to old memories.

[00:42:10]Then came the day I tried to force into a small corner in my mind that always seems to creep upon me late hours of the night. The day she departed this earth, leaving me behind. The day painted like a vivid picture in my mind that plays like a neverending movie that I can't seem to escape from. The nightmare that haunts my heart at night, making it shatter and slowly picking up pieces, placing them back one by one, only to be knocked down out of place once more. the day she left me, only to fight all the demons she had left behind. My body was being pushed as I laid sprawled on the couch from the night before while my dog was curled up next to me. Slowly opening my eyes, I was faced with a worried woman, my mother. Get up. We have to leave. She spoke so quick as if she were in a hurry. Looking at her with confused eyes, I slowly rose, making my dog jump with me as she turned her back and walked into the other room. My eyes begin to get heavy along with my body as I as gravity pulled me back into the couch, resting once more, making me fall back into my previous position, slowly drifting off to sleep. I heard the piercing sound of gunfire going through the house, making me raise up.

[00:43:25]My stepsister's door flew open to see if I was okay.

[00:43:29]I checked. She said, "Sorry, that was an accident." My mom screamed from the back of the house, making me even more worried about why she would have a gun in the first place. Re relaxing a little bit, I sat petting my dog as my sister went back to her room, shutting her door and turning her music back up. After looking at the clock, about 5 minutes passed in silence since my mom's incident. Then it happened again. Yet this time, the sound was louder. The gunshot cracked into the air, loud as thunder.

[00:44:04]making me jump to my feet, waiting for my mom's response.

[00:44:08]Silence filled the air as my sister door thumped from the loud music she was playing. Running to the back of the house, I opened my mother's door to find her on the floor, her body cold. I screamed for help, but no one came and no one heard my please.

[00:44:24]She wasn't breathing.

[00:44:27]I felt like I wasn't breathing either.

[00:44:31]Who did this to her?

[00:44:36]Why, my mother?

[00:44:39]Why isn't anybody here to help her, to save her for the life that was being swept away from her?

[00:44:46]Running to my sister's room, I banged on the door, waiting for her to answer. As she did, she noticed my tear, stained cheeks, and pushed me out of the way to see what had happened. Soon I heard her screams, making me cry harder.

[00:45:01]After what felt like hours, the ambulance finally came. They took my mom away and they told me to go with my grandmother.

[00:45:08]With outstretched arms wrapped around me, kissing my head, my as tears streamed down my face. Why is she crying? She knows she's okay, right?

[00:45:17]Later that evening, she told me you were gone.

[00:45:23]I screamed as tears shot like rockets out of my eyes. No, they were lying. She was okay. She was in the next room waiting for me to rush into your arms out so I can embrace you in my hug. I swear I would have hugged you so tight.

[00:45:39]I would have never let go. But the worst thing they told me is that no one did this to her that she did it to herself.

[00:45:48]Yes, losing my mother was ever so tragic in a way that no teenager should ever have to face alone. But knowing that she is now in a different place where she won't have to face all the pain that she was going through. Though the grieving process was hard, I've also learned that is part of the human process, the human experience to feel pain and hurt. But don't be afraid to open up yourself to it. I know it's hard losing someone from a traumatic experience, but you can't blame yourself for someone else's actions. Yes, sometimes it may be feel like tomorrow will never come. Believe me, the pain will slowly begin to pass.

[00:46:26]You just have to give time for yourself to heal. Losing my mom taught me that life is too precious to waste time on little things. Life can be taken away at a moment. So, live it to the fullest.

[00:46:39]Also, she taught me to make sure that people you are close to or close to are okay. Because giving someone a chance that they can talk to and rely on must be given to save someone's life.

[00:46:57]That's my niece 15.

[00:47:09]That's like shocking to listen to.

[00:47:12]>> Yeah.

[00:47:13]>> It's It's almost equally shocking how well written that that letter is.

[00:47:19]>> Mhm.

[00:47:21]>> For a 15-year-old.

[00:47:23]>> Yeah. And um to have that to step back away from it, you know, and this is the importance of I think writing too. And now she was I'm grateful she was well she's well read at that age to be able to translate and express her emotions that way. Now mind you you know her story is I've had her talk about this openly and when we presented together and she's said she went to her teacher and she wrote a a classroom paper. This is a classroom essay that she wrote for tell something tell a story about something that happened in your life that changes.

[00:48:01]So, she's told a story about a dog and the teacher's like, "Ah, that's not good enough."

[00:48:07]And and she said, "Well, okay. I'm going to write this.

[00:48:09]>> What about this?"

[00:48:10]>> And so, she hands the paper into the teacher and the teacher's like, "I can't grade this."

[00:48:17]She said, "This is amazing. Like, I can't you know what? I can't grade that. I can't give you a critique on that." And she was like, "What do you mean?"

[00:48:29]So, for her to capture that, now mind you, I've actually had her record an audio version with this. My sister, my niece is a tiny person. She's like 4 foot 11. So, she's this tiny kid. It sounds like a little voice. And uh I've had her read this out loud. And I she couldn't read through half of it either.

[00:48:46]Um and but she did it. And I still struggle with it. You see me tearing up just hearing because I know that's my sister right there. And I know what happened. I've been back to that house.

[00:48:56]I was I was I know where she was at. I went to go pick her up from her grandma's house. So, and I'm okay with feeling it. It allows me to be human and alive and connected to her, her memory, her story. And so, I don't think there would ever be a point that I can read it without feeling something.

[00:49:18]Even this moment, just thinking about it, I was like, I miss my sister.

[00:49:27]Did she have a plan? And I'm curious because I don't think that most suicides are these long drawn out things.

[00:49:41]>> Mhm.

[00:49:42]>> I think the data would say that people have a moment where they just believe that that is the best option.

[00:49:54]and they snap and it happens and it's done and >> but what was what was her experience with that?

[00:50:02]>> Well, looking back at it, um I think it was and you can kind of hear a little bit about even the story cuz my niece was there.

[00:50:11]Now, mind you, she's just a kid so she doesn't know what's going on. Mom's coming in saying, "Hey, get up. We need to leave." So, there's something troubling that's going on. Um, but I going through because nobody ever went back to the house after it happened, but I did. Um, you know, I preparing for her eulogy as her brother and as a clinician, I wanted to know what happened. I had to go get her stuff, too. So, I sat in the bed where she was at. I could see the bullet holes that she's referring to in the walls, and I'm going through her papers, and I'm seeing my sister was very worried.

[00:50:49]She was trying to do everything to get her nursing license back. She had everything perfectly organized. She had been denied for a mental health uh disability um like that day, like got it in the mail just a day prior and so there was a letter there. So I I've got the sense that she was trying to do everything she could to get back, right? And had run out of I'm not sure what else to do, right? And here's a gun.

[00:51:20]And this is this is the choice that I'm going to make right now. The pain is overtaking me. I don't know how I'm going to come back from this. You know, I don't have a home anymore. She was staying with somebody else, somebody else's home.

[00:51:36]And so, I don't think this was not her ideal pound. If you talk to my niece, my sister prior to that, even when she was in a hospital, it was like, "Oh, no. I'm getting my stuff back. I'm coming back.

[00:51:45]I'm coming back." You know, it wasn't a very wellorganized comeback because she was doing it without not a lot of help and she was still using substances and she was beating herself up about using substances. So there was a deep amount of shame and feeling weak and powerless and those kind of things.

[00:52:04]Um, so to your point, a lot of times this is impulsive because if you was met my sister before, every picture that you ever see my sister, she's smiling, most beautiful smile, beautiful person, right? But behind it kind of breaking inside, but having to hold on to that facade, right? So in her instance, I say this is not this was not something planned, but I can say probably this was something that was pushing against her and not sure what to do.

[00:52:34]and and not knowing who to call. I used to get angry about it because I like, "Why didn't you call me? You called our mom instead." Right? She called my mom before she died and said some things like, "I'm in trouble."

[00:52:50]And I don't think everything was done that needed to be done in that moment, but the access to that lethal weapon nearby, which is something that I tried to advocate heavily for. I'm not somebody that's against, you know, carrying an arm or anything like that, but having safe gun safe laws in place and limited access cuz my sister didn't have a history of mental health in the sense that she couldn't have access gun, >> right? Um, but it was there and available. And I've seen many times parents of who's have guns out who are that that are not locked that the kids go through a crisis and they're angry and in that moment of frustration and anxiety and fear that they do something impulsive and they have access to a weapon because it's not safe. So the idea is putting more barriers in place, right? And we all know how hard it is to even sometimes even get a mental health appointment, right? It's like you call up to get a therapist. Oh, I'll see you in two weeks or to try to see a doctor.

[00:53:50]it could be a month, right? So, there's all these barriers for us getting help, but sometimes it seems like it can be easier to access something that could harm ourselves.

[00:54:02]Now, mind you, you know, firearm particular is something that's not common with with with women um as far as deadly means. And we, you know, it's typically something you see within men. But the other thing that you have got to un understand my sister's a nurse. So nurses as we know and healthcare workers have a higher risk of suicide just because they're in that industry, right? The burnout level and they understand lethality. People who are veterans, you know, our first responders have higher risk for for suicide. So it trumps the idea of gender.

[00:54:34]>> So and they also are on this place of helping other people and they're the last people to get help, right? So, kind of being in this kind of hero space of like, I'm hurting, who's going to help me?

[00:54:46]Um, take that same mentality, put it on top of a a veteran or somebody's in active military, right? They have access to weapons, too. And so, are we talking about safe and secure lethal means? Over 55% in the people who die by suicide die by a firearm.

[00:55:07]Um, you know, so we look at international studies, places that don't have easier access or more gun law safeties, that kind of stuff in place.

[00:55:16]Typically, you don't see that uh as leading cause of death when it comes to suicide breakdown. Um, so that's part of the picture is making sure access is pushed back and help is pushed forward, right? And so those are some of the system things. You know, we can look at state byst state. States that have higher rates of suicide are usually have typically carry more firearms have less restrictions on their firearm laws and usually don't have as many access to mental health resources. So you put that combination by state and by community, those places and communities typically have s higher suicide rates.

[00:55:58]So, there's things that we can do at an administrative level when it comes to laws. Um, and there's things that we can do within our homes that we can keep our family safe. And there's things that we can do individually, helping our loved ones, right? And one of those things we can do is start destigmatizing talking about when people are struggling, right?

[00:56:19]And having those conversations and connecting people to good resources and doing it again and doing it again, right? uh making sure they get the help that they need.

[00:56:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. One of the staggering statist statistics that I learned in going through this course was that the greatest age demographic of suicide growth in 2025 was the ages 10 to 14.

[00:56:46]>> Yeah.

[00:56:46]>> And that is just shocking to hear that.

[00:56:49]I have a 10-year-old >> son. It's my oldest of four. And I just couldn't imagine a world where he would be having those kind of thoughts.

[00:56:57]>> Right.

[00:56:58]>> But we're seeing that children that young are not just susceptible, but very susceptible.

[00:57:05]>> Very susceptible.

[00:57:06]>> What do we do? What do we do as parents in the home? There's a lot of parents that are listening to this going, "Wait a minute. I didn't realize 10 to 14. I didn't realize that young >> we need to start educating our children on this and looking out for certain things and >> communicating in a certain way and setting a certain type of example. And so what what do we do as parents?

[00:57:27]>> That's and there's several things that you can do as a parent um at that age and why we're seeing those increases in particular. Um, the the best protective thing that you can give for your 10 to 14year-old kid is to help them strengthen their self-esteem, loving themselves, making sure that you also are a safe parent that they can come and talk to you. And that means being able to listen without judging, right? and going to them, keeping the door open, sitting down, listen to your kids, what's going on, having those conversations with them. Because kids who isolate themselves, typically it's because they don't feel safe coming to their parents and having tougher conversations. Kids in that age group are dealing with much more complex life situations, exposure to information that you and I probably never had access to before, >> right? So, we have to watch the overexposure, making sure the homes are safe. It's usually that's when in that age where kids are typically getting bullied whether it's online like we have more sources of online like when I was in school it was just being bullied in school now it's 247 if you have any social media access you can be bullied in private messaging >> you know chat groups video games >> right and so >> you have a lot more anxiety going up with kids >> because stress is going up and at that age typically We're not able to really regulate our mood. And being a part of a community, being accepted at, you know, of a peer group is really important at the age of 10 to 14. You want people to like you. You want to fit in. So when you don't fit in and we're pushing you out in the corner, you're being bullied, >> right? The kids start feeling they're not good enough. And they're also trying to start to differentiate away from their parents, right? So, it's important that parents lean in, have those difficult conversations, try to uh moderate their online time as much as you possibly can.

[00:59:34]>> You know, I'll see a lot of kids who have a lot of impulse issues. When the the the vice goes away, they get angry, >> right? They have a hard time controlling their mood, the impulsivity, >> right? That temperament, right? Well, so we're talking about like dopamine drop, like that those games feed the brain constantly. So getting time away, connecting, getting in nature, getting self-esteem, giving them a development outside of just what's on the screen or their school, getting involved in good activities, reaffirming them, listen, checking in with them, watching out for the signs of isolation, make sure they're not using drugs and alcohol, that kind of stuff.

[01:00:12]Um, so there's a things that you want to bring closer to your kids and things you want to reduce for your kids because kids are not just self-regulated. that's what they're trying to figure out, but they still need parents to help them.

[01:00:24]So, you want to be that parent that's having those conversations to help them set boundaries and learn how to express their feelings and their mood. Uh, and making sure they have a good support group that's around them, you know.

[01:00:37]>> I hope you parents are listening. That was that was that was really good. That was gold. I mean, you mentioned >> eight to 10 things there that >> I'm going to go watch that back a few times because >> so much of what you said really resonates with me, screen time and online and >> you know we we have been pretty disciplined with our church >> community because of the community aspect for our children >> and what that does. having other good children around them that are faith-based, that have good families and good values and and the whole thing. And >> man, I mean, that's good stuff.

[01:01:24]>> Yeah, you need togetherness. And I talked about that in any in survivorship or as a protective factor having community and togetherness, right? Being a part of something >> Yeah.

[01:01:36]>> is >> even at that age, right?

[01:01:38]>> Yeah. Exactly. at that age is so important. You know, attachment, being connected, feeling like you have a sense of responsibility like you matter.

[01:01:45]>> Yeah.

[01:01:45]>> Right. It makes gives you that sense that my life matters, right? And so you want to create those connections for your your children and make sure they're good connections, right? And so giving them strong self-esteem because that's what self-esteem at that age starts to be built. Have feedback. Do people like me?

[01:02:04]Right? And if nobody likes me, they start to internalize that. Well, I don't like myself. Maybe something's wrong with me. You remember back when you were 10 and 14 how how much you tried to do all the things to fit in and that kind of stuff. And sometimes it just doesn't work, right? They need parents too that are available to help guide them and ideally some peers too.

[01:02:24]And so know who their peers parents and what they're involved with are and create a community around that.

[01:02:29]>> Yeah.

[01:02:30]>> Right. So yeah, find safe people that they can connect with. Um, kids are not that great typically setting boundaries for themselves. So start early so kids know that. That's the best protective factor is for kids nowadays is self-esteem, >> right? Because they're going to see a lot of stuff on social media that makes them feel like they are not good enough, right? Uh, and that's kind of what it's designed for to go buy the next product.

[01:02:57]Um, >> what do what do you think is like the appropriate age for children to start having a smartphone, social media accounts, online gaming? I mean, what's your perspective on that?

[01:03:07]>> I it I would probably say until somebody's like 15, 16 years old, honestly, before you start getting devices in front of them. Sad thing is I'll see like like the infant has the kid has the tablet in front of it and guess what happens when you pet take it away? The kids start screaming.

[01:03:23]>> Yeah. It's insane, >> right? And so the best outcomes I've seen with kids is kids who don't have access to that kind of stuff, getting reading, studying languages, social activities, stuff like that. Those kids typically will have more resilience because what we're introducing for them is what we call delayed gratification.

[01:03:42]Okay? And so kids who can put off the quick dopamine hit of the next activity typically become more resilient as they age and ideally are more successful because they're not trying to worry about getting the immediate response of I need something to feel good. I need something to feel good constantly. And so if you're training a child's brain, you know, through their teenage years to always have to be hooked on dopamine and feeling good and getting the next click and hitting the thing, winning the thing within seconds, like think about what you're doing to train your nervous system with that, right? You're going to be hooked on a quick dopamine hit over and over and over and over again.

[01:04:19]>> And so, which is kind of the underpinninging of addictive behavior, >> you know? So keeping your kids delayed gratification, helping them monitor that that yes, we can use it, but with this limit helps them, right? So you know, if you could wait until you're 21 or 24, that would probably be ideal.

[01:04:38]I mean, that's not likely going to happen. And only reason I say that is because we know the brain, the prefrontal to catch in particular, doesn't develop and fully develop for males until they're 28. And for for for women, it's around 24. But that's actually why the legal age of drinking is around 21 because we're trying to aim for that because it can actually impair.

[01:04:59]So another thing you can do obviously is keep your kids away from drugs and alcohol. Early underage drinking usage which can become very popular. There's a lot of promotion of alcohol all over the place. So early using of drugs and alcohol, nicotine can heavily impact brain development and your ability to self-regulate your mood. So keep that away from your kids. Um and delay at least limit their time on screen and push it as much as you. It's it's difficult because kids are like, "Hey, Johnny has one and they have one and they have ones." But um I've seen the best outcomes in hearing with kids and parents and I have some in my family who have put their kids screen time way off.

[01:05:40]They don't get a cell phone and they're like 16 years old. I'm like I'm impressed.

[01:05:45]>> And to see those kids thriving, I'm like, I see why you did. It's amazing.

[01:05:48]So yeah, >> I interviewed a guy couple of months ago. His podcast went live maybe three or four weeks ago. His name is Nick Rosboro >> and he attempted suicide and and lived.

[01:06:04]>> Wow. Mhm.

[01:06:05]>> And it's actually um ironically a similar story as your sister as I listened to that letter, but drove up into the mountains.

[01:06:17]>> Um was in a really tough marriage.

[01:06:20]>> Mhm.

[01:06:20]>> Uh going through a divorce, wanted his wife to feel the pain that he felt. And so he pulled out his smartphone, set it up in his truck.

[01:06:29]>> Mhm. and turned on the camera and fired off two rounds into the ground to see if there were bullets >> and then put the gun up to his head, fired it and it jammed.

[01:06:40]>> Wow.

[01:06:42]>> And you know, he tells this experience and um something occurred to me during that.

[01:06:50]I I've lost several men. I've actually lost three men that I'm really pretty close to in the last three or four months >> to suicide.

[01:07:00]And so the reason you and I are talking, the reason Alexi and I met, the reason I'm having more conversations about this because personally it's it's >> um a mission of mine to use my platform to talk more openly about this >> doing that too.

[01:07:13]>> One of the things I said on there, I'm not sure if it's right, but I want to rearticulate it to you and I'd love to hear your perspective on this.

[01:07:23]It occurred to me that one of the things that maybe the main thing that propels me to another day, the main thing that allows me to fight those thoughts >> is that I have a really big why.

[01:07:39]>> Yeah.

[01:07:40]>> And the language that I used in that podcast was that you want to know how to not kill yourself. It's like find a bigger why.

[01:07:46]>> Yeah.

[01:07:46]>> I don't know if anybody in the history of mankind that has died by suicide has had a big enough why.

[01:07:54]Does that feel right to you?

[01:07:56]>> No. Purpose is a large part when we talk about why, that's what we're kind of leaning into is like when you have a strong purpose.

[01:08:05]>> Um, you know, sometimes I'll say this phrase without a strong why, the price is too high.

[01:08:14]And we have to create reasons for for living and going through adverse times.

[01:08:21]So when you have a strong why, a big enough why, >> yeah, >> it can drive you through some of the most difficult times.

[01:08:29]>> And so what is that why comprised of? Now mind you, it can be both negative and positive things.

[01:08:38]>> Okay? Meaning if I don't do this, this is likely going to happen.

[01:08:43]>> This might happen. These are all the bad things that happen. and the other things. The other why is I'm doing this because of all of these other great things. Okay, so we have both sides of informing our why, right? If I'm going to quit smoking, for instance, right? Or uh some habit that you're trying to change. When you have a big enough why, if I don't stop, I'm going to lose my leg, right? If I don't stop, my my liver is going to fail.

[01:09:11]>> Yeah.

[01:09:12]>> Right. If I don't do X, Y, and Z, I'm going to lose my kids. I'm going to lose my job. So those on the other side of and say, "But what is the other what's the win? What's the upside?"

[01:09:22]And and you need both to create that why when you're in a crisis, when you're um overwhelmed with emotional pain and feeling anxiety, hurt, heartbreak, we're not thinking logically, right? The why is canceled out. So before we get to the moment of pain, >> we should find our purpose before that.

[01:09:46]And that means finding your center and your purpose. The other thing that I would add on to that, we have a greater why because I I've started to personally look into like what is my why as as a place of protection creating greater purpose for myself greater. And one of the things that I like well my I've understood that my purpose is to grow.

[01:10:10]All of our purposes are to grow. And one of the ways that we grow, one of the main ways that we grow is going through adversity. And in fact, it is necessary to go through adversity to grow.

[01:10:23]>> Amen.

[01:10:24]>> And the thing is, and I heard this quoted too, that if you're in a place of suicidal crisis, it's not that you need to die, but something else does.

[01:10:35]Something else that you've been holding on to needs to be let go.

[01:10:39]And it's a point of creation. And I look back at my years of work as a crisis director and I've saw hundreds of people come through the doors and they're at a crisis point. It's a pivotal moment for them of change, right? And it's in those moments that we really need help.

[01:11:00]We need connection. We need somebody to care about us when we at that moment we don't feel like anybody cares about us.

[01:11:09]So the thing that I've learned of of how to transition not just oh this is so painful and overwhelming and I don't know what to do. Having a strong why and good reason but also connection. So purpose without connection is is is incomplete.

[01:11:31]So sometimes we carry a strong why by ourselves, but we also need that connection, that attachment, that meaning. Like I've seen people who were like, I don't want to let my dog down, so I'm sticking around from my dog, >> right?

[01:11:47]>> And if that's that bond can save people's lives, >> you know, I don't want to let this person out. I can never those that internal connection when you recognize that even when I can't see my own value, I'm living it out through someone else.

[01:12:04]So if you think about your friend or maybe my sister, they're at a point where they don't feel that connection anymore, right? And they might even believe that they're a burden on someone else.

[01:12:13]>> It's more useful for them to not be around, >> right? And so it's not a thing of, "Oh, it's so selfish." No, it's not. They think >> Yeah. that they're doing other people a favor, but I guarantee you my sister never wanted to cause that def de devastation to my to her own daughter.

[01:12:27]Never. The way that she took care of her daughter.

[01:12:31]So having a strong why and staying connected are the greatest way to get protected through those times and do it before you hit those moments of your life is do an inventory, right? Know your worth. Know that your your life matters, right? knowing that you have substance. Check in, right? Say, "Hey, what's my value?" And that's one of the things when we feel worthless and nothing's working out for us, we lose ourselves. Come back to your purpose.

[01:12:56]Come back to your center. Reach out for connection. That's why groups are so important, too. And having a sense of community when we don't belong. Like people who are in LGBTQ communities, for instance, have a higher rate of of suicide. Why is that?

[01:13:09]Because they feel like they don't belong, right? Socially, they feel threatened in some regards. in some but guess what when you put them in a community they feel like they belong >> right any group that we bring a people into a collective community it is in our nature to feel apart but when we're ostracized so it's purpose when in a group that creates protection purpose within a group creates protection and so we need to do it for ourselves we need to do it for our kids and for those communities who are more vulnerable need to feel connected more because we see the differences within age groups. We see the differences in jobs. We see the differences in race because of how people experience the world and they devalue themselves based on the judgment of other people.

[01:14:00]>> Do you think that this is going to be a very unique question that I've never asked before and I could almost guarantee you've never been asked this question before.

[01:14:08]>> Okay.

[01:14:08]>> But it's on my heart. It's a two-part question.

[01:14:13]What do you believe happens to people who die by suicide?

[01:14:17]>> And the second part of the question is do you think that they regret it?

[01:14:23]>> Um the second part of that question is yes I believe that they do regret it and that's studies of people who are attempt survivors. Typically they will attempt once and regret it. You don't see a lot of repeat.

[01:14:37]>> Yeah. Um, so to those people who have are attempt survivors based on their testimonies, folks that I've talked to, I'd say yes, they regret it. The other question is interesting like what happens to those who die by suicide? Um, and I my background is is miz and ministry and I remember going to um in a very conservative church and um thinking about my sister like her passing and what does that mean? And this idea of suicide, you know, if you if you die by suicide, you're going to hell or something like that, you know, was like the going belief.

[01:15:17]And the truth is, and an evangelist came up to me, he like whispering like, "We don't know what God is doing in the middle of that, right?"

[01:15:29]And so I believe that, and this is just through more research and working with people in the brain, mental health, that we're all eternal.

[01:15:39]Like no matter how we leave, we're ultimately all eternal because I can still feel the energy of these people that we're connected to, especially when we speak their name, right? Sometimes we even feel their presence. Sometimes they show up with people who look like them and they remind us of them, that they're still here.

[01:15:57]Um, so for me that's all that's all meaningful. So I began to realize that just by the laws of physics that energy cannot be created or destroyed. And so we all have an energy essence about us.

[01:16:12]So that no matter how we depart, our energy continues on in some form.

[01:16:18]>> Right? It is through the connection to others still after loved ones have lost that they're still meaningful. Right?

[01:16:25]Even in the absence of my sister here in the physical body, I still feel connected to her. You know, even I talk about her, I have a connection through my niece in a different way. So, I still think they go on now. And so, I don't have a place or heaven or hell to put them into. Now, you know, there's teachings out there that says, you know, yes, religiosity and being spiritual is a protective factor. It is.

[01:16:50]The research will say that having a spiritual connection does is a protective factor. Having a sense of a higher power >> is a protective factor. Research for instance among African-American women of years ago uh have one of the lowest rates of suicide than any other group older black women. And one of the things they extracted from this not because they were older and they were black. It was because of how they experienced their religion and their spiritual faith. is not only were they spiritually faith but they also the the role that they played in the community was very meaningful right they were mothers they were grandmothers of other kids too versus other groups who felt like they didn't have connection and meaning so connection to spiritual higher power is important um as a protective factor we have to have those conversations of like well your life is not finished right just at this point it still has meaning and so I don't think anybody should die by suicide which is in alone and feeling like they are in emotional desperation and pain because in that part we are we're not seeing who we really are.

[01:17:59]Um, so but I mean I don't have a heaven and hell to put anybody into, but I can assure you that we are most certainly eternal and our lives have meaning and ideally you carry that out. And the growth, the adversity that you go through even through all the hardship that my sister was going through, there was still meaning. There was still work to be done. She still had value that could have been embodied that went unfinished.

[01:18:24]>> Right? I'm just picking it up. And sometimes it feels like a burden. It feels like a greater responsibility.

[01:18:30]Uh but I chose to make it part of my why because of the position that I was standing in. I felt a sense of responsibility not just as a brother but as a mental health provider, as a leader, as a CEO, as a you know, as a human being. I felt a sense of responsibility. And when I told that story and I realized that other people were connected to I was like that's the power that is the eternal energy that my sister will now exist in through this tragedy.

[01:18:58]And so I just won't let that go undone.

[01:19:03]Right. So maybe long-winded answer to your question. I don't know if I got to it or not but um that's what it means to me.

[01:19:11]So to rap, I remember I was probably eight, nine, 10 years old the first time that we ever went to Vegas as a family. And when I say went to Vegas, I mean we drove through Vegas going from Utah to Arizona or something, right?

[01:19:26]>> And I remember driving on the road and being enamored by the lights and the buildings and all the and the billboards and all the stuff. And I see this billboard and it's a suicide hotline billboard. And I asked my dad, I said, 'Dad, what what what is that all about? What does that mean? He says, 'Oh, that's a a hotline. It's a phone number that people can call if they're thinking about suicide.

[01:19:48]>> Mhm.

[01:19:48]>> And the idea of that to me at that age was so crazy.

[01:19:52]>> Mhm.

[01:19:52]>> It's like, wait, what do you mean? Like just people that want to kill themselves? I couldn't understand it. I couldn't comprehend it.

[01:20:02]>> And and I think part of the reason was it just wasn't as common. back then as it is today, right? And we've seen the rates of suicide and depression and mental health and and anxiety particularly in men, but just across the board >> uh have increased pretty much every single year since that day, me as a young kid. And it's not slowing down, right? We can talk about it slowing down, but it's not slowing down.

[01:20:29]>> And I feel a deep deep sense of responsibility to do something about it, and you do, too. So to close, what do we do?

[01:20:39]>> Those of us who I mean whe whether we have suicidal ideation or not, >> what do we do about this?

[01:20:47]>> No, it's it's it's really do what has always actually worked in these places where we've seen a lot of pain, which is bringing together the lost survivor and the attempt survivor to advoc advocate for change.

[01:21:03]Um, for instance, I grew up in an age where um, HIV, AIDS was a leading killer of people in the '9s. It was like top two, three.

[01:21:16]Now, it doesn't make the list. If you look at the CDC reports, >> it's gone. It's not on there. People live and they thrive with HIV AIDS. How did that happen? How do we go from the one of the most stigmatizing diseases, right, that was killing that people were afraid to get close to each other for a period of time, right, and isolating people because of this diagnosis, if you will, and labeling.

[01:21:47]But what happened was advocacy started to happen. People stood up. Young people were affective affected.

[01:21:56]Um, I remember Ryan White and his story.

[01:21:59]Uh, we saw Magic Johnson come forward.

[01:22:01]We saw some very powerful stories come forward to create change. And there was investment made into saying we're going to as a nation address this crisis because people who were losing loved ones decided to come together and create change.

[01:22:21]And I believe the same thing needs to happen around suicide and mental health with groups that are affected the most come together advocate collective power creates change. Right? We keep being told that suicide there's nothing that we can do about it. Right? With people they just want to die. You know that's their choice. Whatever. As long as we subscribe to that belief we won't do anything about it.

[01:22:51]So we have to first believe that we can change and do something about it. That we don't have to sit back and just let it happen.

[01:22:59]We have to come out and speak up about it and create communities of people say, "Hey, what do we need to do in my school? What do we need to do in our in our city, right? Those people who are effective, what change do I want to advocate for? What's happening in my backyard that makes a difference?"

[01:23:17]>> Right? We keep talking also about uh and I have to say about it when people hear about like mass shootings for instance with young people. Well, more than 60% of the people who are involved in a mass shooting, the person who is the shooter, if you will, is suicidal 60% of the time, right? And so I'm a big advocate. I'm like, well, we've we've got to talk about access to lethal means as well.

[01:23:45]That's one thing. be preventative and also giving better access to care. And that means getting rid of the act the the stigma around calling 988 to get help, right? Seeing a provider, training people within your community like in schools, it can be really effective. I worked in schools and we would have other peers trained other students trained to talk to their other peers about it and have a reporting mechanism to say, "Hey, I'm worried about Johnny in my school." Right? putting systems in place that really work without judging people, right? And so getting access to help in the schools, getting more counselors in the schools, we need things like that. And so if we look closely about what's happening in our backyard, our neighborhoods, if you will, we can figure out the answer strategically because we've done it with some of the most devastating disease courses that we've ever seen. Right? I still believe that we can make change, but I and we're just now in the last probably five years like mental health is a priority, right? People are talking about their brain health now. Before we never talked about it, it was just like sh don't say anything. Now you hear it everywhere. So I believe that we're now shifting the culture. It's just that tipping point of does that community come together and do we take our advocacy and our funds to start creating change to create better health care systems, right? better access in schools, in hospitals, making it an everyday thing that hey, it's okay for you to struggle with pain. We want to connect with you, right? It's okay. And so that 988 is an add-on to that as well.

[01:25:21]Um, making sure that we support and love each other is is so important in having community. Um, one of the interesting things that I people talk about all the up and up, the one year that suicide rates went down was in 2020.

[01:25:36]Interestingly enough, right, which fascinated so much, but one of the big biggest contributing factors was that the kids were not in school, right? And suicide rates during those times of coming going back to school and getting ready to leave school, suicide rates went up, okay? If we look at year-over-year in the data, right? And then in 2020, we saw this reemergence, right? But what happened? More alcohol started being used at home. people were still isolating themselves and more firearm purchases were made in 2021 and 2020 than ever before. And so it's been this cascading effect. So now we're seeing almost 50,000 people die by suicide every year now. And we haven't course corrected it enough, right? And so there's more conversation around that change in number that yeah things can change and actually reduce the number but what's happening right at these particular times that so we can see when rates go down and when rates go up what's different and capture the times when rates go down to figure out the answers within our communities within our country within our local whatever is within your capacity because it is possible these numbers do change they're malleable we just have to take real action And we've taken real diseases, heart disease, cancer, HIV, AIDS, etc. We've seen change when it comes to mortality rates because we focused in on them. People do cancer walks all the time, right? And so now it's us coming together around mental health and suicide prevention. Uh, and we'll find the same thing, access to care and reducing access to lethal means uh, in all forms.

[01:27:14]>> Amen. Dr. Marlin, thank you. It was an honor to have you.

[01:27:18]>> Thank you for using this platform to tell my sister's story and my niece.

[01:27:23]Really means a lot to us. You're >> welcome. You're welcome.