This Anti-Trinity Argument Was an Embarrassment | Sam Shamoun

本站添加: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]What is the monarchy of the father?

[00:00:01]Explain to them simple terms. Guys, listen.

[00:00:05]And do all ancient churches that go to the time of the apostles, which means the Catholic Church accepted. Explain monarchy.

[00:00:12]That he that is begotten derives from he that is unbegotten.

[00:00:17]He that is unbegotten is the monarchy.

[00:00:20]The fount head, Revelation 22:1.

[00:00:23]Synonymous with monarchy, fount head.

[00:00:26]Simple.

[00:00:28]You got it, right?

[00:00:29]Monarchy, it's actually two Greek words if you guys want to monos, arche.

[00:00:34]The father's the source. You got it?

[00:00:36]Mhm. Source.

[00:00:38]Where does the divine nature originate from?

[00:00:40]The father.

[00:00:42]The son's nature, the spirit's nature is the father's nature.

[00:00:46]And he's the source of it, originates from him.

[00:00:49]So, the nature of the son, nature of the spirit is the nature of the father and it originates from him.

[00:00:55]The father's the source. The divine nature originates from his hypostasis or person.

[00:01:02]But the son and spirit are eternally inseparable from the father. So, there's never been a time where the son and spirit did not have that nature. Okay, everyone understand that?

[00:01:10]Yeah. We we would we would also say, Sam, just to make it even easier that he is the origin of procession.

[00:01:17]Just as you said, he is the origin of generation and procession. That's right.

[00:01:22]That's why I was saying that it comes to the son and spirit. I'm just simplifying it a little more for people just in case they don't know what procession is.

[00:01:29]You may think it's simple, but I just want to understand. What do you mean?

[00:01:32]Because we believe the father begets the son and the spirit proceeds from the father.

[00:01:37]Right.

[00:01:38]So, to make it simple for you guys, listen.

[00:01:42]What we're basically saying, because this is taught by all the Christians, it's in the creeds and the Catholics affirm, Council of Nicaea, Council of Constantinople, Catholics believe this, man.

[00:01:52]So, in the creeds that Catholics Orthodox accept.

[00:01:56]Okay, now listen.

[00:01:57]Listen to this.

[00:01:59]When you say that the son is begotten of the father and the spirit proceeds from the father, you're affirming the monarchy. The father [clears throat] is the father of the son, but he's also the father, meaning the source of divine nature. The nature originates from him.

[00:02:15]He's the source of it.

[00:02:17]It's not from another source, he's the source. Cuz there's one source, the Godhead is one. Okay, we got it, right?

[00:02:24]Just want to make sure you got it.

[00:02:26]To explain this, Jesus is in heaven.

[00:02:29]I want you to hear this. Jesus is in heaven.

[00:02:33]To explain this, that Jesus says, while he's in heaven, glorified, he's glorified, that he still has a father over him. He says, that's because the monarchy.

[00:02:48]Meaning because the father, being the source, is the is the son's God.

[00:02:55]That was his answer.

[00:02:57]Now, let me tell you why that's not the answer. It's not biblical and it's not historical because Jade is not that educated. He's not that educated intelligent when it comes to the Trinity.

[00:03:09]Now, guys, let me explain to you why that's a bad argument, don't use it.

[00:03:14]If the father is Jesus's God because of the monarchy, does that mean the father is the Holy Spirit's God?

[00:03:26]And if so, where do you find anywhere in scripture where the father said to be the God of the Holy Spirit?

[00:03:35]Well said.

[00:03:37]See how stupid of an argument that is?

[00:03:39]An embarrassment.

[00:03:43]Do you guys got it now? Why that argument is pathetically bad?

[00:03:48]If it's true that the father is Jesus's God cuz of the monarchy, the father's the source, then is he the spirit's God?

[00:03:57]And where do you find that articulated that the father is the God of the Holy Spirit?

[00:04:07]Simple, right?

[00:04:09]Athanasius, did Athanasius appeal did Athanasius appeal to Origen as being a Trinitarian?

[00:04:20]Let's see.

[00:04:22]Here it is, Athanasian Origen's Christology.

[00:04:25]Chapter 6.

[00:04:28]So, is he going to throw Origen under the bus, too, when it comes to the Trinity? Mind you, I'm talking about the Trinity.

[00:04:33]Yes, he was condemned for some views he held that were heretical.

[00:04:38]But Athanasius appeals to Origen as being on his side of the debate, a Trinitarian.

[00:04:45]Here you go.

[00:04:46]27, by the way, so you can see it. I'll get you the link in a minute.

[00:04:52]De decretis, de decretus.

[00:04:56]Writer, Athanasius.

[00:04:57]Who does Athanasius appeal to as being on his side that God is triune and Christ is not a creature?

[00:05:05]Origen.

[00:05:10]All right, here read 27 for me, can you?

[00:05:13]And uh concerning the everlasting coexistence of the word with the father, Beautiful.

[00:05:19]and that he is not of another essence or subsistence, but proper to the fathers as the bishops in the council say, you may hear again from the >> All right, shut up, brother. concerning the everlasting coexistence of the word with the father, and that he is not of another essence or subsistence, but proper to the fathers as the bishops in the council said, you may hear again from the labor-loving Origen also.

[00:05:44]For what he has written as if inquiring and by way of exercise that that let no one take as expressive of his own sentiments, but of parties who are contending in investigation.

[00:05:58]But what he definitely uh declares that is the sentiment of the labor labor-loving man after his prolusions then, so to speak, against the heretics, straightway he introduces his personal belief uh thus. Now, he's quoting Origen.

[00:06:15]Does Athanasius think Origen is a Trinitarian who loves and affirms the Trinity that Athanasius believes in?

[00:06:21]Here it is.

[00:06:23]If there be an image of the invisible God, it is an invisible image. That's true. Nay, if we be bold to add that as being in the likeness of the father, never was it not. Beautiful. For when was that God who, according to John, is called light, for God is light, without a radiance of his proper glory that a man should presume to assert the son's origin of existence as if before he was not?

[00:06:50]But when when was not the image of the father's ineffable and nameless and unutterable subsistence, that expression and word that he knows and he that knows the father?

[00:07:03]For let him understand well who dares to say once the son was not that he is saying once wisdom was not and word was not and life was not. You see what Origen is saying? If you dare say there was a time in which the son did exist, then you're saying God didn't have wisdom or word or life.

[00:07:28]So, Origen is a Trinitarian and Athanasius quotes him as such. And then again he quotes him. And again elsewhere he says, what does he say?

[00:07:36]But it is not innocent nor without peril if, because our weakness of understanding, we deprive God, as far as in us lies, of the only begotten word ever coexisting with him.

[00:07:49]And the wisdom in which he rejoiced, else he must be conceived as not always possessed of joy. So, the only begotten word ever coexisting with him?

[00:08:02]Ever coexisting with him? Is that what Origen said?

[00:08:05]Yeah, forever, yeah. Forever with the father. Now, look what Athanasius says because he doesn't just quote Origen, he quotes others saying, "Look, Arius, you Arians, I have these church men who come before me on my side." And he quotes them.

[00:08:18]And he mentions Origen.

[00:08:20]>> [clears throat] >> So, look what Athanasius concludes right here. Read it for us.

[00:08:23]See, see, we are proving that this view has been transmitted from father to father, but you all modern Jews and disciples of Caiaphas, how many fathers can you assign to your phrases? Not one of the understanding and wise >> pause right there.

[00:08:39]Here goes apostolic succession again, folks.

[00:08:43]Do you see how these fathers are destroying the heresies and heretics?

[00:08:48]Apostolic succession, unbroken chain from apostles to bishops to their disciples to bishops to their time.

[00:08:57]Because you cannot cite, you Arians, one prior to your coming on the scene, one who taught what you taught about Jesus and the spirit. Not one. And here I'll give you a list and Origen's one of them. Keep reading. [snorts] For all abhor you but the devil alone. None but he is your father in this apostasy who both in the beginning sowed you with the seed of this irreligion, beautiful statement, and now persuades you to slander the ecumenical council for committing for committing to writing not your doctrines, but that which from the beginning those who were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have handed down to us. Wow. For the faith which the council has confessed in writing, that is the faith of the Catholic Church, typo. To assert this, the blessed fathers are blessed fathers so expressed themselves while condemning the Aryan heresy typo again.

[00:10:00]This is a chief reason why these apply themselves to calumniate the council.

[00:10:05]Calumniate. Yeah, whatever. Calumniate.

[00:10:08]Calumniate. Poison and, you know, whip and attack, yeah. Calumniate, yeah. Yep.

[00:10:13]For it is not the terms which which trouble them, but those terms prove them to be heretics and presumptuous beyond other heresies. Now, you understand what Athanasius said? I'm going to correct it now. He said, "Look, the council is simply hammering out, affirming, what the Catholic Church has taught from the beginning.

[00:10:37]From the eyewitnesses of the word that passed it on from the beginning. So, Council of Nicaea is confirming the ancient teaching of the eyewitnesses to the Lord, what they taught, what they wrote, and preserved.

[00:10:53]That's how Athanasius is refuting the Arians.

[00:10:57]Right? Right. Now, let me go make the correction. So, what I'm getting at is if you were to say the Father is Jesus' God because of the monarchy. Are you saying the Father is Holy Spirit's God? And you're going to say yes?

[00:11:15]You're going to say He's the God of the Son and the Spirit?

[00:11:19]First of all, what scriptural warrant do you have for the Father being the Spirit's God?

[00:11:25]You have none.

[00:11:27]It's not there. You're not going to find it.

[00:11:30]So, to argue the way Jay does is dangerous because, as you said, his view is more akin to what? Explain, as you were saying.

[00:11:38]Uh if I'm being charitable, it's more akin to uh homoiousios. So, let me explain, guys. Let's use the Greek kind of language. Homo is akin to identical. So, if I say the Father and Son are one in essence, they're homoousios, essential, or homoiousios.

[00:12:00]Ousios is essential, guys.

[00:12:02]The semi-Arians believed that the Son was of a similar essence, not identical, sim- similar.

[00:12:12]That word is homoial.

[00:12:15]Okay?

[00:12:16]So, the distinction between the two words, guys, is homo and homoial.

[00:12:20]As a matter of fact, brother, let me just do this. I have something I could show them make everything a lot easier.

[00:12:26]Let me just By the way, this is what Arius said.

[00:12:29]Okay?

[00:12:31]He says, "He, the Son, has none of the distinct characteristics of God's own being, for he is not equal to, nor is he of the same being as him."

[00:12:41]All right? So, notice, guys, Arius is not saying that the Father and the Son are one as John 10:30 says.

[00:12:48]Right?

[00:12:50]Now, here's the definition.

[00:12:53]Homoousios, it's right there in front of everybody. Homoousios, same indivisible essence shared equality in full measure by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, i.e., Nicaea's consubstantiality.

[00:13:06]Homoiousios, which is the one in the middle, the Son is similar in nature to the Father. Eusebius' concerns with a possible Sabellian Marcellian interpretation of homoousios leads to the usage of similar substance, right?

[00:13:23]And then hetero means different substance. Arius was one who believed Jesus Christ was a different substance than the Father. He was heteroousios.

[00:13:33]Those that were semi-Arian believed that Jesus had a similar substance, but not identical, which is homoiousios.

[00:13:42]And of course, Nicaea taught homoousios.

[00:13:46]The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, essentially. Yep.

[00:13:53]So, there you got it, right? Yes. Take a screenshot of that.

[00:13:56]Makes it a lot easier for people.

[00:13:58]>> I don't know. Yeah, but I don't think I can Let me see.

[00:14:02]Let me see if I can make spaces here cuz I'm trying to make spaces.

[00:14:06]And it was What was the other term that was giving me a hard time? Hold on, let me see.

[00:14:11]Okay. And then, all right, we're going to go into the meat. I just want to see where the typos were. Hold on.

[00:14:16]Cuz this guy brought up the typos. Now it's in my mind. Aryan heresy.

[00:14:20]>> Page 27. Yeah, 27.

[00:14:22]No, Aryan heresy cuz I got to see over here cuz the formatting way the way he formats it, it's very very confusing.

[00:14:29]Anyway, let me see.

[00:14:32]Okay, yeah, it worked now.

[00:14:34]Are you satisfied now? All right. So, guys, if the Father is Jesus' God because of the monarchy, is he also the Spirit's God?

[00:14:44]Is he also the Spirit's God? See, that that's a terrible argument. Put that baby to rest. That's not the argument.

[00:14:51]So, then, what's the answer?

[00:14:53]Let's give you the answer. You ready?

[00:14:56]Let's give you the answer. So, if you hold to Jay's view that the Father is Jesus' God, essentially, in respect to the divine nature, in respect to the fact that their hypostasis, personhood, are distinct, and one of the properties of the hypostasis of the Father, the technical term, person of the Father, is that being the begetter of the Son, He's the God of the Son, then does that mean being the breather of the Spirit, the one who breathes out the Spirit, He's the God of the Spirit?

[00:15:28]Where does it say the Father is the God of the Holy Spirit? Doesn't work.

[00:15:33]That's not going to work, but that was his argument. John 17:3, yeah, you know why the Father is the only true God?

[00:15:38]Monarchy.

[00:15:39]Do you know why Jesus says my God?

[00:15:41]Monarchy. No, that's not the answer.

[00:15:44]Let's go through this argument. Let's put this baby to rest. Why is Jesus referring to the Father as his God?

[00:15:52]One, He's on earth as a man and after the resurrection. Let me get the verses lined up, you're going to see.

[00:15:58]Now, let me first show you that while Christ is on earth and in heaven, He has a God. Notice, on earth and in heaven, He has a God. Okay, ready?

[00:16:09]And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

[00:16:15]Which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

[00:16:21]So, He's got a God. Oh, that's a monarchy. No, it isn't. John 20:17.

[00:16:26]Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, to the Father, but go to my brothers and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father and my God and your God."

[00:16:41]Okay, this is now after the resurrection, guys. He's been raised from the dead. He's appearing to the disciples. So, He still has a God after the resurrection, brother?

[00:16:51]Yeah, according to this. All right. What about now in heaven? He's in heaven now when Paul writes this letter, right?

[00:16:57]Mhm.

[00:16:58]Second Corinthians 1:3.

[00:16:59]Right.

[00:17:00]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort.

[00:17:06]Pretty clear.

[00:17:08]The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, not just His Father?

[00:17:12]Mhm.

[00:17:13]So, He's got a God over Him?

[00:17:15]Right. Okay, let me add one more cuz I had forgot to add this one here.

[00:17:19]See?

[00:17:21]Ephesians 1:17.

[00:17:23]And and the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation and the full knowledge of Him.

[00:17:33]Wait, wait, wait.

[00:17:34]Now in heaven, what is the Father to Jesus?

[00:17:41]The the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[00:17:44]So, Jesus has a God.

[00:17:47]Now, some of His right hand, everyone pay attention to when this is hap- taking place.

[00:17:52]Now, Hebrews 1:8-9. We're going to come back to this because Desirec tried to use it.

[00:17:58]Right? To show that Jesus' throne is on earth.

[00:18:02]Cuz it's the Davidic throne. Go ahead.

[00:18:04]But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.

[00:18:08]And the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

[00:18:13]You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. Therefore, God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above uh your companions."

[00:18:22]So, He still has a God as He reigns forever?

[00:18:28]Therefore, God, your God? Your God, right. Now, notice, guys, in heaven now, in heaven, God has a God over Him.

[00:18:40]But you think Jay's monarchy is going to solve this dilemma?

[00:18:43]All right.

[00:18:44]Now, notice Revelation 1:5-6. Read that for us.

[00:18:48]And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, which is, by the way, You're fine. From Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth, to Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood, and He made us and He has made us to be a kingdom priests, to be a kingdom priest to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen. So, now notice again, the Father is Jesus' God. Are you seeing the pattern? Focus, guys.

[00:19:23]Jesus in heaven still has a God.

[00:19:26]Okay?

[00:19:28]He's in heaven now. Revelation 3:12.

[00:19:29]Read this again.

[00:19:31]He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of my God, and he will never go out from it anymore.

[00:19:38]And I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God and my new name.

[00:19:49]Four times Jesus in glory, the glorified Christ says the Father is his God.

[00:19:55]Now, if this is monarchia, then can Jay quote a verse showing you the Father is the Holy Spirit's God?

[00:20:05]If it's true that the Father is Jesus' God because of the monarchia, then that means we should expect to find that the Father is the Holy Spirit's God. Chapter and verse, Jay.

[00:20:18]Show me where the Father is the Spirit's God.

[00:20:22]Chapter and verse.

[00:20:24]Don't bother, you won't find it.

[00:20:27]Let me tell you why the Father is Jesus' God and has nothing to do with the monarchy, nothing.

[00:20:33]Nothing to do with the monarchy. It has to do with the incarnation. How do I know?

[00:20:38]Okay.

[00:20:40]Every single time the Father said to be Jesus' God, it's in reference to the incarnation.

[00:20:47]That he's God in flesh.

[00:20:48]Okay. 14:34, what does our Lord say?

[00:20:51]>> [snorts] >> And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

[00:21:00]All right. Now, he's quoting Psalm 22:1.

[00:21:05]For uh "Why have you forsaken me?" For the choir director, according to Ijeleth hash a psalm of David. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Far from my salvation's salvation are the words of my groaning." Now, why does he call him my God? Here you go, black and white in Jay's face. Psalm 22:9 and 10. Read it for me.

[00:21:30]"Yet you are he who brought me out of the womb.

[00:21:34]You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.

[00:21:39]Upon you I was cast from birth.

[00:21:42]You have been my God from my mother's womb." When did the Father become his God?

[00:21:50]At the incarnation.

[00:21:52]Wow.

[00:21:53]Black and white, huh?

[00:21:57]Black and white. "You've been my God from my mother's womb." This is a psalm about Jesus.

[00:22:03]Since the womb, when the Holy Virgin Theotokos conceived him, in the womb, when he became human at conception, cuz human life begins at conception. That's when you've been my God.

[00:22:16]Right there.