Catholic struggles with this one question from protestants

[00:00:00]Paul says, "Neither principalities [music] nor powers nor anything can separate us from the love of God, right?" But nowhere in that list does he mention >> [music] >> anything that comes from yourself. The Catholic Church doesn't teach for certain that we can know, unless [music] God gives us by some miracles. God doesn't tell us for certain whether someone has [music] gone to heaven or hell unless he reveals it to us by some miracles that they've done.

[00:00:28]>> Eliana, good to meet you, Eliana. Thanks for coming to the microphone.

[00:00:31]>> Yes, of course. I was listening, overhearing your conversation with another fellow Catholic.

[00:00:38]Um but I was really interested in your like faith by or salvation by faith alone conversation. And I didn't get to hear all of it, so I was wondering if you could like explain that a little more and I'd love to hear a little more about it.

[00:00:52]>> Yeah, thank you.

[00:00:54]Um so I grew up Catholic.

[00:00:56]I I was never encouraged to read the Bible.

[00:00:59]Um in part, I guess I would maybe uh blame the Catholic Church for that, maybe blame my parents. Regardless, I never read it. So I was never able to truly see if uh the things that I was learning were true and accurate. It was always, "Hey, just take our word for it."

[00:01:14]>> Mhm.

[00:01:14]>> Hey, you know what?

[00:01:16]We have looked into these things ourselves >> Right.

[00:01:19]>> and we've come to the conclusion on these.

[00:01:20]>> Yeah.

[00:01:21]>> And then the moment you begin to bring forth questions you were looked down upon.

[00:01:27]>> Oh.

[00:01:27]>> I think that any worldview no matter what religion you are, you should be able to ask questions. You should be able to get literature from somebody who disagrees with you. And then we just kind of study it out.

[00:01:39]>> Yeah.

[00:01:40]>> We try to figure things out.

[00:01:41]>> Yeah.

[00:01:42]>> And anytime somebody says, "Well, just take my word for it."

[00:01:45]>> Mhm.

[00:01:46]>> Check, please. How how do I get out of this, right?

[00:01:48]>> Yeah.

[00:01:49]>> So the way my brother, Mike, who was Catholic as well, growing up and he became a Christian when he turned about 55 years old.

[00:02:00]He explained it like this.

[00:02:02]That Christianity gives people the ability to skip the line and go to the front. In other words, you don't need to do anything to earn the smile of God.

[00:02:17]And when you stand before God, it's not because I've done something extraordinary. It's not because I I fed the homeless. It's not because I donated my time, talent, or treasure to local charitable organizations.

[00:02:32]I stand before God because of what Jesus did. Purgatory? Not necessary because I don't need to work anything off.

[00:02:41]I'm able to have access into the presence of the Father because Jesus died for my sins. I appreciated it and I appropriated it to me. And so now he ripped the veil. I don't know if you're familiar with the veil that would take place.

[00:02:56]>> I've heard of it before, but I'll be honest, I'm not like a huge theologian yet.

[00:03:00]>> Yeah, well, that's okay. We're not all theologians either and we're a work in progress ourselves.

[00:03:05]>> Yes.

[00:03:06]>> But listen to this. Back in the Old Testament, on the day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, the high priest within the Jewish system would enter into the Holy of Holies and would offer up a sacrifice on behalf of the people.

[00:03:21]>> Right.

[00:03:21]>> In fact, they would tie a rope around his ankle with a bell attached to it and they knew that as the high priest was entering in that the bell would ring. If the bell stops ringing and there's more slack in the rope >> it means he died before he entered in.

[00:03:37]>> Yeah.

[00:03:37]>> So they would pull him out. They'd grab the next guy and say, "You're welcome.

[00:03:41]You're up next. Go on in and offer up the sacrifice." Can you imagine being number two?

[00:03:45]>> [laughter] >> You know, waiting to try to go inside there, right?

[00:03:48]>> But the But God demonstrated that he dwelt in some fashion, behind that veil.

[00:03:55]This veil, this really thick woven material. It's thick as 9 in if you would.

[00:04:01]>> To get inside there, once a once a year, that's it. Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. But when Jesus died on the cross, that veil was torn. Not from the bottom up, signifying we made our way to God, but it was torn from the top to the bottom, signifying we don't need no veil anymore.

[00:04:20]>> Right.

[00:04:20]>> access to come in.

[00:04:22]That's what the difference would be in my eyes concerning Catholicism, and I got a lot of Catholic friends and family, and Christianity as found in scripture. Because you'll never know if you've done enough works within Catholicism, and it becomes a revolving door of meritorious works.

[00:04:41]Whereas Christianity, man, Jesus paid the fine, and you're saved by grace, and you're accepted into the beloved, and you have access to heaven because of what Jesus did. Not because you've received the Eucharist, not because you were baptized, not because you confess your sins to another human flawed individual, but because of what Jesus did, that he was our high priest and made access for us. Does that make sense?

[00:05:10]>> That makes a lot of sense. Actually, as you were saying it, it does sound a little like what I've been taught as a Catholic.

[00:05:18]>> Yeah.

[00:05:18]>> Um we don't believe that you merit merit anything like I think Father Mike Schmitz once said, "Deserve doesn't belong in the Catholic dictionary." Because there's no way we can merit that enormous sacrifice that God made for all of us.

[00:05:34]>> Yeah.

[00:05:34]>> Um >> But the Council of Trent comes along and says, "Anyone who says that it is grace alone, let him be anathema. Let him be accursed."

[00:05:44]>> Well, but the problem there I think, is not that we have to do our own thing to get there, um like action-wise. I mean, we do have to, I think, do things to try and not separate ourselves from God, but God gives that to us freely.

[00:06:05]Um >> Eliana, let me ask you something. What do you think you could do to separate yourself from God?

[00:06:09]>> Oh, yeah. Um so, I'm just thinking back to when Paul says, I'm sure you all are familiar with this. Um neither principalities nor powers nor anything can separate us from the love of God, right?

[00:06:21]Um but nowhere in that list does he mention anything that comes from yourself, right?

[00:06:28]>> thing.

[00:06:28]>> No cre- >> Nor any nor any other created thing. Are you a created thing?

[00:06:33]>> I am a created thing.

[00:06:34]>> So, that covers you as well. That's Romans chapter 8.

[00:06:38]>> Right. Okay. Yeah.

[00:06:40]Um >> Eliana, this is Eliana.

[00:06:43]>> Yes. Hi.

[00:06:45]>> Hi there. How are you doing?

[00:06:46]>> I'm good.

[00:06:46]>> My name is John. Nice to meet you.

[00:06:48]>> Okay. Nice to meet you, John.

[00:06:48]>> Eliana, is it? Eliana, that's a lovely name. Eliana, I found that there is a lot of discrepancies between what Catholics say in person and what the catechism teaches.

[00:06:59]>> Really?

[00:07:00]>> Yeah. Great to >> makes sense. We're all fallen human beings.

[00:07:02]>> Yes, of course. But I think it's a little bit more than that. I think there are a lot of genuine Catholics out there who want to do the right thing.

[00:07:09]>> Right.

[00:07:09]>> And I think what's happening is they don't know what the catechism is teaching. Therefore, they're doing the wrong thing as far as the Pope and the catechism is concerned, but they're doing the right thing because they know what it is when they read the Bible. And I think this is what happens a lot. For example, you said that we believe in Jesus for our eternal life, right? But the catechism says something different.

[00:07:30]It says, "If anyone says that good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified, then let them be anathema." The quote is much longer than that and actually picks on every conflict between having faith and doing works. So, you stood there and contradicted the catechism and I'm saying, "Well, in that case you're probably not a Catholic because the idea of being a Catholic is that you follow what the Pope teaches."

[00:07:58]>> I wasn't trying to say something like that. I'm just >> No, no, you're saying No, no, I'm praising you.

[00:08:05]>> You want to con- conflict it. We think that's a good thing.

[00:08:07]>> We think it's a right thing to do.

[00:08:08]>> Listen, there's nothing I can do to merit my salvation. And the Catholic Church says, "If you say that, you're anathema." So, we think you're right in saying that, but that's the supreme anathema.

[00:08:18]>> Yeah, I can I'll give you the quote entirely. You can have a look at it. I'm actually just reading the first two lines.

[00:08:23]>> All the first two lines again, that's fine. I'll look >> Yeah, well, actually it's a little bit hard to follow. If anyone says that good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and that the merit of Jesus Christ whose living member he is does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life and in the case he dies, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory. In other words, all these things that you're supposed to do to achieve more grace like the Eucharist and all the sacraments, if you say those things don't work, then let him be anathema.

[00:09:07]>> Okay.

[00:09:07]>> But you're saying the opposite and we commend you for that. We're praising you for that.

[00:09:12]>> think I'm saying the opposite. Um >> Okay, let me ask you this question. Is eternal life achieved by Jesus alone or is Jesus plus something else like my good works?

[00:09:26]>> Achieved >> Is eternal life received by Jesus Christ alone or is it also some works that I could do?

[00:09:39]>> I think that Jesus there's no way we could get to heaven without Jesus Christ.

[00:09:45]>> you have to do something to receive this or is it all the work of Jesus Christ?

[00:09:52]>> I think as my fellow Catholic was pointing out earlier, if it was just the work of ourselves, we it wouldn't be a completely loving relationship as the father as a father and a child would say. And when I said we can't merit that, I meant we are sinners and there's nothing we can do to deserve that grace, but we do receive it anyway.

[00:10:21]>> Is it all what he did or do I have to do something to receive it?

[00:10:25]>> Yeah, there's a great saint among the Catholic Church called Saint Therese of Lisieux. She's a beautiful soul.

[00:10:32]Um, but she she asked her sister how come she asked I think she asked her sister something similar. And her sister said God gives the same grace to every person. However, and then she laid out two cups on the table. One was a bigger cup and one was a smaller cup. She tried pouring the same amount of water in each cup, but one was able to hold less water and the other was able to hold more more water.

[00:10:59]Um, so I think among the Catholic Church what the catechism is saying is that it's not that God is giving less grace or that we do something to get that grace.

[00:11:08]We just like by doing these things and becoming closer and closer to God by filling our hearts through our actions, we grow that vessel for receiving the grace that God is freely giving to us.

[00:11:24]We do nothing to deserve it.

[00:11:25]>> Okay, let me let me ask the question again to be clear.

[00:11:27]>> Yes.

[00:11:28]>> If you were to die today, will you go to heaven because Jesus did everything or do you go to heaven because Jesus did some things and you did some things?

[00:11:38]>> The other thing in the Catholic Church is I don't think we believe that >> not asking what Catholics believe. I'm asking you.

[00:11:43]>> Yes, and as a Catholic I'm trying to believe as much as I can the best of what Catholics have said. Um so what the best of Catholics believe I think Um sorry, I lost my train of thought. You can ask the question again.

[00:11:59]>> Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:00]>> Will you go to heaven because of what Jesus did or will you go to heaven because of what Jesus did plus some things you have done?

[00:12:08]>> Right. The other Yeah, what I was going to say is that the Catholic Church is really it's great to think about though.

[00:12:14]I really appreciate you guys doing >> Can we just Can I help you out? Can I >> What I was going to say is the Catholic Church doesn't teach for certain that we can know unless God gives us by some miracles.

[00:12:28]>> Okay.

[00:12:28]>> God doesn't tell us for certain whether someone has gone to heaven or hell unless he reveals it to us by some miracles that they've done for them.

[00:12:37]>> the question for you?

[00:12:39]>> If you would like.

[00:12:39]>> If it's Jesus plus something I do, then the weakest link in that statement is me. So therefore I can never be sure and in fact I see no reason why I will make it into heaven. But if it is Jesus alone and the work he's done on the cross, then I can be confident of having this eternal life because I'm not in that equation. However, I then do good works because out of my gratitude, not so that I can earn eternal life. And let me give you a verse in the Bible that just nails this once and for all.

[00:13:10]>> Yeah.

[00:13:10]>> 1 John 5:12 and 13. 1 John 5:12 and 13.

[00:13:15]12 says if you have the son, you have eternal life. If you don't have the son, you have no eternal life. It doesn't say anything about me doing something. Just if I receive the son. You know what 13 says? Verse 13 says, "I tell you those things so that you may know."

[00:13:30]"I tell you those things so that you may know." So, the fact that you're implying that you don't know is going already against what scripture is saying. I'm encouraging you to follow what the Bible says, not what a person says or what a catechism says. You're not going to stand before God one day and say, "Well, the Pope told me this." That will not be justification. But, if you say the Bible says or God said that I can enter, then you can walk into heaven because the Bible tells us to walk into that courtroom with confidence and boldness.

[00:14:00]You will not be able to do it the way you are right now.

[00:14:03]>> Okay.

[00:14:03]>> Repent and put your trust in Jesus alone, not a person, and not in yourself.

[00:14:10]And then by repenting and putting your faith in Jesus, you will have eternal life.

[00:14:13]>> Eliana, I'm going to have John sign your $5 bill cuz I definitely did not change your mind, but I'm going to have him sign [laughter] that just so you can keep it as a memory or swap it out.

[00:14:22]>> can't use it in Chick-fil-A?

[00:14:24]>> You use it wherever you want.

[00:14:25]>> [laughter] >> It's just signed now. Eliana, thanks for taking time with us. We appreciate it.

[00:14:28]>> Thank you so much.

[00:14:29]>> Hey guys, we're going to have some more conversation. This young man was next in the red shirt. Yeah.

[00:14:35]>> [music] [music]