História do Cristianismo Século XIX - Parte 2 | Jorge Elarrat e Rafael Siqueira

Added: 2026-05-29

[00:00:29]Hello, hello, everyone. Hello, Rafael. Happy birthday.

[00:00:48]Thank you very much. Happy birthday. Oh, here's the cake.

[00:00:54]What's the 19th century like? So it's the 19th.

[00:01:00]That's right. Happy birthday, Rafael. Thank you, Jorgito. Good evening, Cleid. Good evening, Jorge Alará. Good evening to everyone in our chat. How are you all doing? Everything's fine, Rafael. Thank God everything's fine. A little chilly, but it's nice.

[00:01:24]The weather's very nice. And you, Elahrá? I'm not in Porto Velho. So let's change things up. No, I'm somewhere else. Where are you? I'm in a city, I'm in a city that Rafa knows.

[00:01:47]The city I'm from is called Rio de Janeiro. Rio de Janeiro. It's very close to me here. I'm actually at the Spiritist Center of Ana Teresa Camasmi. Wow, that's great, that's wonderful. Very good. And this week I did all the live streams at her house, Monday, Tuesday, all of them there. And today I came to the center because I had an activity here, so I came here.

[00:02:16]How nice. I've been there before. It's a very welcoming center. Very nice. Yes, look, we're already here and with quite a few people joining us, Rafael.

[00:02:31]We have 100 people here with us at this moment. Let's say goodnight, our big hug to all of them. Yes, and I want to thank everyone who is congratulating me on my birthday, expressing my joy at being able to share these moments of spirituality, of life, with you, for completing another year, and to say that I feel very good, both yesterday and today, for being in your company. May Jesus bless you. Very good. Let's say our prayer, Cleite. Let's, let's say our prayer. So, let's start here by giving thanks, right?

[00:03:09]Always thanking God, our merciful father, our heavenly father. Thanking Jesus, our master, and all the spirits who accompany us here in this work with us and in our daily lives.

[00:03:25]We extend our gratitude to all of them and also pray to God, to Jesus, our master, that He may envelop all of us, all our brothers and sisters who are present here, accompanying us, all those who will have access to this live stream later, and ask that He may also envelop our dear Delará, our dear Rafael, who will speak to us with wisdom and authority.

[00:03:56]Envelop, Lord, all our brothers and sisters on this planet Earth, the incarnate and the disincarnate, that they may receive a shower of blessings, of love, of peace, of light, and of wisdom.

[00:04:16]And so be it, Lord. We begin another study of the 19th century. Part two today.

[00:04:28]That's right. Today we will do the second part. For those who haven't been following our activities, we do, uh, fortnightly, but actually not fortnightly, but on the second and fourth Wednesday of each month, a study on the history of Christianity. And we use as a rule each live stream one century. So, one for the 19th century, one for the second, for the third.

[00:04:57]But there are quite a few centuries, and there have been many. We ended up splitting this century into more than one episode because there was so much content. Today we're in exactly that situation. We 're already in the 19th century. We came from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th centuries, and we've arrived at the 19th century.

[00:05:19]You know, so many things happened in the 19th century that we decided to divide this century into more than one live stream so that we could appreciate with more attention some content that is very important for our understanding of this very significant moment in the history of Christianity. In the last live stream, we talked a lot about the religious aspect, the intrinsically religious aspect of the 19th century.

[00:05:58]And in this particular century, even though we're addressing the religious question, because our backdrop is the history of Christianity, we're going to bring some information of a more philosophical nature. Today we're going to delve deeper into a strand of philosophical thought from the 19th century and the capacity that this century gave us to see a very significant change in the history of humanity. So, today, right, Rafa? We're going to explore the works of important men of this century, but whose ideas are more connected not only to philosophy itself, but also with a twist in the direction of science, isn't that right?

[00:06:52]Exactly. Look, it's always a joy to be with you, Jorge, with you, my friends.

[00:06:58]To those in the chat, know that Elará is very close to me. He's here at Tarefeiros do Bem, in Rio de Janeiro, in the Botafogo neighborhood. In the last live stream, we talked a lot about the religious aspect, reminding people that we had Celminha from the United States, who spoke about Heidelville, bringing information that until then wasn't well presented in history. We also talked about a second revival of faith that occurred in the United States.

[00:07:28]We talked about the birth of the Adventist Church, the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and basically we talked about aspects of religion. Now Jorge, I don't know if he dropped out or if he dropped out, Cit, I think he dropped out. He should be back soon, he should be back soon. Well, let's see if he'll be back. Yes. He invited us to start with the philosophical aspect, but we would have other aspects to talk about equally in the religious aspect. I'm giving it a little time to see if he comes back, because we would have a few more. Oh, he's coming in here.

[00:08:09]I pressed the wrong button, okay? Jorge, I was talking about everything we discussed 15 days ago; there are still some aspects of the 19th century within religion. For example, within the 19th century, we have the First Vatican Council, which is important. We have the encyclical Umrum Novarum, which is important. We have Las Masirantes, the emergence of Spiritism. We have one of the Marian apparitions in Lourdes, which was also very important; we could talk about it. Then, in 1854, we have the dogma of the Immaculate Conception with Pope Pius I.

[00:08:51]We could give a general overview of what the religious aspect of the 19th century was like. Or we could talk about philosophy and society in the 19th century. Where would you prefer to begin?

[00:09:08]Ah, I think we could start with these discussions about points that aren't religious, that don't touch on Spiritism, but that aren't specifically from the Catholic Church.

[00:09:22]We could first talk about the points that were missing regarding the religious meaning, then we'll move on to the part about the Church, and then we'll discuss the issue of Spiritism itself later on. Okay, so let's go. In the 19th century, in 1854, Pope Pius I established a dogma that became very well-known in the Catholic Church. And today, when we talk about the Immaculate Conception, referring to Mary, we think that there is Our Lady of the Conception. But in truth, what was Pope Pius's proposal? He wanted to establish that, like Jesus, Mary was conceived without sin. Hence, immaculate, without blemish, without stain. Conception. Let's go. You 're saying that within the concept of Christianity, the idea arose that Jesus was conceived in a very unique way and that, therefore, there was no effective contact, a relationship from a sexual point of view, between Mary and Joseph, and that he would, therefore, have a nature, he would be the son of God for that reason. And you're saying now that this same reasoning was applied to the interpretation of the conception. The conception of Mary is not the conception of her conceiving Jesus, it's the conception of her birth, of Mary. Is that what you're saying? I'll organize all this in people's minds. In 325 we had the Council of Nicaea, which we studied in the 5th century. The great discovery, the great conclusion of the Council of Nicaea was to establish the Holy Trinity. What is the Holy Trinity? It is three persons who are consubstantial in one. We have God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three persons who form a unity. Where did we arrive? For the Christians at that time, Jesus and God are the same person. Nevertheless, there is talk of God the Father, God the Son, three persons forming a unity. We had a council in Ephesus in the following century, which is the century in 431, which reached another conclusion. Let's go. If we establish that Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God, Theotokos. And that's when a lot of confusion started to arise, because we know that Mary, Theocistus from the Greek, is the mother of Jesus, not the mother of God. But if you notice how people pray even today, that's the term used in the Catholic Church: Hail Mary, Holy Mary, Mother of God. Why? Because that's the combination of the Councils of Nicaea (325) and Ephesus (431). Mary is the mother of Jesus, not the mother of God for us.

[00:12:30]For spiritualists, she is still considered the Mother of God, but for Catholics even today. When he arrived in 1854, already in the 19th century, Pope Pius I decided to release another dogma, saying: "Look, Jesus was conceived without sin. He is the son of the Holy Spirit. But to say that Mary also had a special nature, and here is the crux of the matter, she, Mary, needed to be conceived without sin. Not that she wasn't conceived by Anne and Joachim. There was a union between Anne and Joachim, but Mary, unlike all of us, was born free from original sin. For the Church, there is an original sin.

[00:13:15]If we go back to the text of Genesis, we know that there were Adam and Eve. And now, for me to speak of Judaism to a Jew is almost a provocation. And at a certain point, the serpent induces Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge and life. God told you not to eat from that tree, but if you eat from that tree, you will become as powerful as He. So, it induces Adam to eat, and they lose paradise. Adam would have to earn his living by the sweat of his brow.

[00:13:51]" And Eve would have to give birth feeling the pains. So, the loss of paradise. And from that original couple, we are all born with original sin. My friends. I'm talking about the Catholic Church. And how do we get rid of original sin with the waters of baptism?

[00:14:13]When a child is born, it is taken to baptism, it is freed from original sin. But Mary didn't need to go through baptism because she was born free from original sin. It was the way, Elará, to establish that the mother of Jesus, who was actually the mother of God, did not have original sin. So, she became known as the Immaculate Conception. And Our Lady of the Conception emerges. Did you understand this Conception? It's Conception. Conception of conceived. Conceived without sin. Our Lady of, right, Our Lady of the Conception. That's it. Our Lady of the Conception. A different conception, right? Yes. And then we need to tell people that Mary has several representations. Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Paris, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of... Guadalupe, Our Lady of Medjugorje, Our Lady of Aparecida. And many people think they are several different saints, but in reality it's just one Mary, the mother of Jesus. The place where she manifested herself, or the title she received—because Our Lady of the Conception is a title given to her—she receives a different name, but it's just one Mary, the mother of Jesus. That's in the Catholic conception, right? In the Catholic conception, we can understand from a Spiritist perspective that various spirits may have manifested themselves, presenting themselves as Mary herself or being interpreted as her, although they are different entities, which doesn't mean they are backward spirits, no. Very evolved entities, perhaps even she herself on some occasions was understood as Mary herself. And then, the understanding that the mother of Jesus herself presented herself in all these places passed to Christendom. I say this with great respect for our Catholic companions, okay? I'm just putting this so that we also have an understanding of what the doctrine is. The Spiritist approach presents us with information on all these issues. And I want to bring up a detail, Lará. How do we, as Spiritists, view, for example, the apparition of Mary?

[00:16:47]It may have been Mary herself, or it may have been another spirit who gave the name Mary, a spirit from Mary's team, because all of that is possible. When we study the book of mediums, we come to the conclusion that there are spirits of the same caliber who can use the name, and this is not necessarily a bluff, but a way to get closer to people and ensure that the person has confidence in what is happening. For example, in 1917, we had the apparition of Mary in Fatima. It's a mediumistic phenomenon, my friends. So, we understand the apparitions of Mary as mediumistic phenomena. And there's another detail as well, one of the great, let's say, confusions between the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church was that when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the church in 1517... In Wittenburg, Germany, he coined only Jesus.

[00:17:49]We would have to put an end to all idolatry of saints and, especially, the idolatry of Jesus' mother.

[00:17:56]They began to disagree that Mary was the mother of Jesus, the mother of God, and also in the 19th century that she had been conceived without sin. So, even today we see certain manifestations of divergence, sometimes even intolerance, between one religion and another because of the figure of Mary and because of the figure of the saints, of the images. Very well. Very good. So, uh, and this was an occurrence that we had, right, the Immaculate Conception that happened in the 19th century.

[00:18:36]Exactly. There is another, there is another very significant one which was that of papal infallibility. It also happened in that same century, right? And it's the same pope. Pope Pius I. In the year 1869, 1870, we had the First Vatican Council and in that council it was established, perhaps, I will say with all due respect, because I was from the Catholic Church, just remembering that I was called to be a priest, it was concluded that there would be an infallibility of papal power. I want to explain this to people. How it was, how this was decided.

[00:19:21]When the Pope speaks ex cathedra, that is, his personal opinions, he is an ordinary man. For example, if he gives his opinion on a football game, a fact of daily life, it is the Pope's opinion. When he speaks in the name of the Church, it's as if he were God's anointed. And here, look, look, he is enveloped by the Holy Spirit. Yes, look at the presumption of the Church. He would be anointed, he would be infallible.

[00:19:50]But it is understandable because, look, if I am inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the representation of God's will, and the Holy Spirit inspires me, what I think in the cathedra, what I think in the chair where I am sitting, within my arguments on the matter, uh, what I decide, is... It is understandable that this logic is applied, because look, if there is a principle of obedience, which is one of the principles within the Church, if I say that the Pope is wrong, I am disobeying. I am not. So, if I obey, if I obey, then it has to be right.

[00:20:34]So, I have to say that if the cardinal speaks, someone can question the cardinal, but who will question the pope? So, evidently, by this logic, he becomes infallible.

[00:20:47]So, the logic of the reasoning makes sense, right? That's it. And I want to suggest reading this book by the benefactor Emanuel, which is "On the Way to the Light," where in chapter 15 he talks about the issue of the beast of the apocalypse, raising the thesis that this beast would be the issue of the papacy that goes from the year 610, when the emperor Phocas reigned, and the first pope was Boniface. From 610 to 1870, we would have a very difficult period for the church, a period that includes the Inquisition, the Crusades, and periods where the church becomes corrupt and mixes with temporal power. So, from 610, when a man begins to give an official version of the facts about Jesus, until 1870, when the church, look, the Pope is infallible, it would be a symbolic representation of what we know as the beast of the apocalypse. I'll even find the exact chapter here. It's the chapter, and he'll comment there that in the apocalypse it speaks of 1200, which is 42, 42 months.

[00:22:12]If I take 42 and multiply it by 30, it would be like days, right? Because months, 42 x 30 equals 1260.

[00:22:23]So, it would be 1260 years, from 610 to 1870. This 1260-year window is the period in which we would be in this condition. Now, it's very important to say, this doesn't refer to the Catholic Church itself, this refers to another phenomenon, which is the period in which the church was under this type of influence. This has nothing to do with the Catholic Church of today, right? The Catholic Church of today, the Catholic Church of today, is a church very distant from all of that. So, we can't say: "Oh, he's talking about the Catholic Church of today, about the priests," no, it has nothing to do with it. It was a previous period in which some mistakes happened, but the church reorganized itself and took a very different course today from the one it had in previous years, in previous centuries, right? Perfect. Exactly what Emmanuel brings in this book, including the 1260, is exactly the number of years that encompasses 610 to 1870. It's a symbolic image that Emmanuel brings in this book to demonstrate that during this period of time the church had very deep marks of These are human errors. It has nothing to do with God and nothing to do with the church of today, the church of Father Marcelo, the church that has so many social tasks, that involves people so much in a feeling of spirituality. It's always good to say this so that people don't see it with a judgmental eye. On the contrary, we try to give a very impartial account of the facts, because we were part of those facts. Fernanda, she's right. Hmm. She's saying: "Explain the infallibility of God better, please." Fernanda, it's nothing more than Pope Pius I saying in 1870: "From today onwards, the Pope is infallible." So, the decisions, the bulls, for example, Pope Leo X issued a bull this week talking about the dangers of artificial intelligence.

[00:24:49]Regarding the guarantee of this dogma, we would need to understand this infallibility, that what he put there would be man saying he is infallible. It's more or less that. It would be different, for example, if Pope Francis were there wearing his Argentina team's shirt, giving a personal opinion, because that would be ex cathedra. It's more or less like that. What the Church has said should be seen as infallible for Catholics worldwide. If the Pope says that the Church is against abortion, that's it. Perfect. Perfect. And the Pope has already said that. That's it. That's it. Rosineide, what about Our Lady of Aparecida? That's one of the most beautiful stories we know, but that'll have to wait. Yes, very well. That's Fernanda's story already. That's it, that's it. Well, within that same century, we had one of the most remarkable Marian apparitions, which was the Marian apparition in Lourdes, because it was 4 years after the Immaculate Conception, where in the vision of Elizabeth Subiru, in a grotto in Massabiel, in the south of France, someone appears to this young woman and says: "I am the Immaculate Conception." She asks people to pray, she asks people for a life of devotion, of surrender to good, and she becomes known as Our Lady of Luts. And so we have had several other Marian apparitions to highlight as well. Hello here. She's here. This question of infallibility while anointed, wouldn't that be the same reasoning as the high priests? This one's for you.

[00:26:56]H, in a way, yes. But we have to consider that within the context of Judaism, in the Jewish belief they are connected to the divine, to the one who is the one God, the living God.

[00:27:15]So the high priest was also inspired by Ruachadus. Ruachadus, the Holy Spirit. So, his manifestations are always considered to be inspired by the divine. The big issue is that this was within a people who lived within a theocracy. The Jews lived in a theocracy, they organized themselves as a theocracy. But Christianity isn't like that.

[00:27:47]Christianity arrived in society and it infiltrated it.

[00:27:52]He went on and on, and suddenly, in the middle of it all, that person arrived and said: "Look, from today on, everything I say is true and perfect. There are no errors in my words." See how different that is from someone who was born into that conception. So, for the Jewish people, that was much easier to manage in terms of understanding. But for the society of that time, 1870 was already a period in which science was in the process of liberating itself from religion. There were already many movements against the idea that religion should dictate the rules. This was already a clear phenomenon, wasn't it? Books published by philosophers had already been offered questioning this role of religion in dictating rules for society. So religion could even have an opinion, but it couldn't say: "This is not the right thing to do." What do you mean by right? I have the right to think differently. In Israel there was no other religion, there was only one, not two. In 1870 you have Catholicism, Protestantism of various kinds. You have a society that was much more pluralistic. So, it's much harder to come along and say, "Oh, when I speak I'm always right because I had the chance to see other perspectives that didn't exist in Israel."

[00:29:26]I don't know if what I'm saying is clear. It's clear. Let me quickly talk about Our Lady of Aparecida, because, well, when I don't answer someone, I feel bad afterwards.

[00:29:37]Guilty. So, also on October 12, 1717—it was even a mistake on our part not to mention this in the 16th century—what happened? Three fishermen, Felipe Pedroso, João Alves, and Domingo Garcias, went fishing in the waters of the Paraíba do Sul River for a celebration that would be held there by an important count called the Count of Açumar. The city is Guaratinguetá, where today is the locality that is now Aparecida do Norte. And they cast their nets, nothing came up. They cast them again, nothing came up. When they were about to give up, they said, "No, let's try one more time," they cast their nets, and the lower part of the saint came up, and it was actually Our Lady of the Conception. We just said the lower part, the lower part of the image, the lower part, the lower part of the image.

[00:30:39]They decided to cast their nets again, and the upper part came up, the head of the image. They joined together, and that event, the colorful miracle, occurred. We know that miracles don't actually exist, but we also know that it's unusual to cast your nets twice and catch the bottom part of the image and then catch the top part. There's a whole fluidic explanation for how all this could have happened. And the fact is that a miracle occurred in their minds, and they decided to cast their nets a third time. And when they cast them after catching the image, the net came up full of fish, and they said, "Oh, yes, it's a miracle of Our Lady." And since she had appeared from the waters of the river, she became Our Lady of Aparecida, because she appeared from the bottom of the river. And you might ask, "Why is the image black?" Because it comes from the river's slime, from the bottom of the river. So, initially it was a white image, but with the river slime it appeared black.

[00:31:49]I want to highlight a detail here. The white image of Our Lady of the Conception, which appears black, Our Lady of Aparecida, was an image that the Jesuits used in the 16th century to catechize the indigenous people. She had three little flowers on her head that represented the Holy Trinity.

[00:32:10]So, you see what the three elements that make up Brazil are: the white element, the black element, and the indigenous element. So, the miracle was for all three races. A white image that became black, which was used to catechize the Indians. Because religion needs to be plural, it's a religion for everyone that embraces all elements. Then a small chapel was formed.

[00:32:35]People began to migrate to that chapel, to pray. Marian devotion began in Brazil.

[00:32:42]Until, in the 20th century, Pope John Paul I ordered the construction of a basilica where the Basilica of Our Lady of Aparecida is today. And the day of fishing, October 12th, became known as the day of Our Lady of Aparecida and also Children's Day. So I want to tell you another part of her story. The image that came from the bottom of the river didn't have a mantle. That was just the little saint. And a devotional cult to Our Lady of Aparecida began. Among the people who were devoted to Our Lady of Aparecida, Princess Isabel, daughter of Dom Pedro I, was devoted to her and could not conceive.

[00:33:34]She prayed—I don't know if it was a novena, I don't know that part, but she prayed, let's say she prayed a novena, I don't know what she did, but she made a request to Our Lady to conceive, and when she did, she said, "I want to give her a gift." Then Princess Isabel ordered the mantle she wears to be made. The mantle was given to her by the empire. Okay?

[00:34:01]Well, speaking of the empire, I want to comment on something that also happened during that period.

[00:34:11]We had a somewhat difficult period in the 19th century between the church and the Brazilian empire.

[00:34:23]Here in our country, there was a very close relationship between religion and the state.

[00:34:30]This was a concept called patronage, in which church and state made an agreement whereby, just as the Pope blessed the monarchs, the monarchs could also choose the bishops and archbishops so that they would be aligned with the political power, creating a certain harmony between the church and the political power. Then, in the 19th century, there was friction regarding this, because Dom Pedro II refused to obey certain issues presented by the Pope. And so he tightened his grip on the two priests, including... From Belém do Pará, there was a man named Dom Macedo Costa. Dom Macedo Costa is the name of the asylum I went to in order to learn about Spiritist doctrine; it's called Dom Macedo Costa Asylum. I went to that asylum when I was 17 years old and came into contact with the people from the Abalá Spiritist youth group, and ended up going to the Spiritist center. So, Dom Macedo Costa, along with another priest whose name I don't remember, the two of them rebelled against the empire and wanted to question the emperor. The emperor ordered them both arrested. This created a great deal of tension and a rupture, a rift, between the church and the empire in the 19th century. When I add three things together: the Paraguayan War and the displeasure of the combatants who didn't feel valued by the empire after winning the war, because they weren't appreciated; when I add the liberation of the enslaved, the abolition of slavery by Princess Isabel, which in a way displeased the property owners; and when I add the issue of the patronage system, which displeased the church, I have three sources of displeasure here. They were upset with the emperor, both the slaveholders and the priests, as well as those who were linked to the Paraguayan War. As a result, this combination is what brought down the empire, right? Look, Zé Luiz is putting something here that Princess Isabel ordered a replica of her crown to be made for ours, that's beautiful, folks. In Brazil, for God's sake, people. It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

[00:37:33]The crown of Our Lady of Aparecida was made by Princess Isabel, a replica of the crown she was going to wear. Since she wouldn't sit on the throne of Brazil, she gave the throne to Our Lady.

[00:37:43]And Princess Isabel was also responsible, on May 13, 1888, for signing the abolition of slavery in Brazil. So, people, look how important this woman is to Brazil and look at the roots she had with Christianity. Thinking about all this is remembering Brazil's own history. Someone is asking me here: "Are you still attracted to Catholicism?" Today I love the Spiritist doctrine. I find myself very well in the Spiritist doctrine. I feel attracted to religions. So, I like to study Catholicism, I like to study Protestantism, I like to study Buddhism, I like to study Judaism. People, I've been following Elará's program since the Ten Commandments that he did with Álvaro and just him. Then Professor Severino joined in, because wherever religion is discussed, I'm there. This is a journey of my soul. So, I feel drawn to history, to the question of dogmas, to all those ceremonies, but you know, Ana Lúcia, but with great respect for those who remain there. There's another issue here. Yes, I think it's important, look. So, the mother of Jesus is not Our Lady of Aparecida, right?

[00:39:05]We talked about this. All the apparitions of Mary, Mary is the mother of Jesus. So, Our Lady of Aparecida is the mother of Jesus, just as Notre Dame de Paris is the mother of Jesus. Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico is the mother of Jesus. Médotre, Notre Dame is in French. Our Lady, Our Lady. But we should say Our Lady. The Cathedral of Our Lady of Paris.

[00:39:34]Médotre, which is Our Lady. Dame, Lady Notre Dame, Our Lady. It's all the same thing.

[00:39:45]You know, Elá, when we were in church, we studied Marian apparitions. For example, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mexico; Our Lady of Fatima, Portugal; Our Lady of Medjugorje, former Yugoslavia; Our Lady of Health, India; Our Lady of Aparecida, Brazil; Our Lady of Lourdes, France; and there are many others. What are these phenomena? They are apparitions of Mary to certain mediums in the places I mentioned. But it is Mary, the mother of Jesus. So, Rosinete, Our Lady of Aparecida is the mother of Jesus. But in a symbolic aspect, when the fishermen first caught the lower part of the saint and then the head, they attributed it to a miracle of the mother of Jesus. Our Lady watched over us; we came fishing, we caught nothing. After we caught the image, the net came back full. Thank you for your question, you know? Because we have many questions about this topic. Our Lady of Nazareth is also like that, okay? The fishermen took her out of the water.

[00:40:58]But there was a catch. They took the image out of the water, and there was a church, a cathedral, the Sé Cathedral, which was far away. They took the image and carried it to the Sé Cathedral, and the image disappeared and reappeared on the riverbank. They took it again. There's a story like that, where they would take the image, but it would reappear in the place where it had been fished out. So, what was the solution?

[00:41:30]To build a chapel in the place where it had been. That's when the little church was born, which would later become the great and beautiful Cathedral of Our Lady of Nazareth, which forms the Nazareth Pilgrimage.

[00:41:43]The Nazareth Pilgrimage, which is a route through the streets of Bethlehem, retraces the path the image took, because the pilgrimage begins at the Sé Cathedral and ends at the Cathedral of Our Lady of Nazareth, which is exactly the path the saint took. So, the faithful walk, repeating this phenomenon so that it is never forgotten that the saint left there and appeared on this side.

[00:42:15]Excellent. To conclude the most important religious aspects, my friends, when discussing 19th-century religion, we would need to talk about many things, but we cannot close this century without mentioning the encyclical Herum Novarum. Yes! We want to talk about Pope Leo XIII? Pope Leo XIV chose this name in homage to Pope Leo X and Pope Leo, whom you will remember from the 5th century, who defended Christian ideas during the barbarian invasions. And what did this Pope Leo X do that was so special? The 19th century was marked by philosophical and economic ideas. One of these ideas came from Karl Marx and Frederick Engels in 1848, with the publication of the Communist Manifesto and later, Capital. It was a period of very intense work. People worked long hours and had no labor rights.

[00:43:25]So Marx envisioned a proletarian revolution, even resorting to violence. I'm not taking sides; I'm narrating historical facts so that the workers could come to power and have better working conditions. He even presents a kind of evolution, where you would go from feudalism, through capitalism, socialism, until you reach communism. For that to happen, at a certain point, you would need a revolution. We had an idea that was the opposite of that, a more capitalist, actually liberal idea, that comes from Adam Smith, Jeremy Branham, and John Stuart Mill, which says: "No, it's not like that. The state has to govern itself, there has to be free enterprise, and things will work out. Because if you interfere in the private economy, you actually make the state bloated, and you prevent society from establishing itself as a society.

[00:44:36]And furthermore, you need a private society, property that belongs to the people. So, on one hand, there was an interventionist state to guarantee rights, and on the other hand, a minimal state so that society could regulate itself. Then came the church—I can't distance myself from that anymore.

[00:44:57]I need to speak up, to take a stand. So, the church established a kind of middle ground. It's true.

[00:45:06]Workers are oppressed, they work long hours, they have no labor rights, but Marques' proposal speaks of revolution, of communism, of violence. Violence. So, I need to guarantee private property, I need to guarantee the..." Individual freedoms while simultaneously granting rights to workers. So they envision a new way of life for new times, new things, where freedoms are guaranteed and rights as well.

[00:45:42]It's a kind of what he called Christian socialism. I don't like to use that name so that people don't think, "Oh, Rafael is defending the social aspect." No, I'm defending what I'm saying, what the Pope said.

[00:45:56]It would be a social aspect with the freedoms of individuals and private property, and without revolution.

[00:46:05]And without revolution. The Ro Novaram proposal was that people, through love, through the pursuit of a better society, that society would evolve, that people would become sensitive to the need for sharing, for dividing. And this mechanism, which would be a natural mechanism and not based on a rupture, but rather on the experience of Christ or the experience of Jesus' proposal of sharing, would slowly and gradually enter a new model of society in which inequalities......that would disappear as we lived as if we were brothers. In fact, that was exactly the Pope's proposal. There's no need to talk about any kind of revolution, because revolution calls for violence, and Jesus was never violent. The Pope even said, if there has to be a revolution, it needs to be through the Gospel. The Gospel needs to be the catalyst for the moral transformation of man, elevating our society to a better world. And if the Gospel is present, there is love. The boss respects his employee, and the employee respects his boss for new times, new things. But the fact is that we lived in times of great intolerance, and the Gospel ended up being largely forgotten. Yes. And so, when we take the message, the man of God, like this here, the boss doesn't oppress the one below him, and the one below respects those below him. So, within the message of the good man, there's the construction of a society that leans heavily towards what Hero Novaro proposed, that is, a more fraternal, more egalitarian society, based on the experience of Christian principles that would promote a better society. The point is that for this to happen, we would have to make the change without either revolution or law.

[00:48:26]It's neither revolution nor law. It's the transformed heart of man that does this, isn't it? So this proposal of Hero Novaro is an idea, right? We have several models of socialism. We have the model of Thomas More, which is utopian socialism, in which people would understand that they should divide and share. So, there are many proposals on how to reach this society, this better society. Utopia. The name of the book is already Utopia. And there's even a book by Leon Deni that's a fantastic book. I'm seeing if I can find it here. It's this one. It's a book on socialism and spiritualism. Yes, I'll grab it here to show people. Because it's by Leon Deni, I feel very comfortable recommending it, because what Leon Deni says here are the same principles as Herum Novarum, by Pope Leo X. He's not defending communism or socialism as we know them in the world today. He's defending fraternity among men, that we look at each other with eyes of love. So, using this book for ideological proselytizing is to not know Leonir. Because, in fact, in this book, he heavily criticizes the regimes and governments that were in power at the time and that were proposing the implementation of the socialist model itself, criticizing the big names in that political segment, saying that they hadn't followed the principle of fraternity.

[00:50:13]Therefore, that's not how things should be, that we should be evolutionist and not revolutionary. Exactly. I wanted to take advantage of this, since you've brought up these discussions, touching on philosophical aspects, to talk about the philosophical changes of the 19th century, you know? I think we could discuss this to justify why Ron Novaron left, what had happened. Well, what happened is that in the 16th century, there was the French Revolution, a very strong break with religion, and the world began to look for a new paradigm, a new reference point of truth. Since religion is no longer dictating what to do, who will dictate, who will point us in the right direction? And it was within the search for a solution in this sense that several thinkers emerged, offering a proposal for understanding how men should govern themselves. Without religion, forget religion, forget God, forget all that. And then they began to work within a new truth. And a first great name that appears in this is a German called Ludwig Feuerba.

[00:51:37]He was born in the same year as Kardec. He was born in 184. He is much younger than the great thinkers of the century, the politicians of the 19th century. He was born a little earlier and he had a very clear vision. He is the author of phrases like: "Man was not created by God, man created God, that we created God and that we placed all perfection in God and therefore felt distant from him, because we were full of imperfection and we transferred to him the reference of..." "The virtue of being pure." So the man was able to deal with his difficulty by reading life in this way. Then he would present books, his great specialty was criticizing religions, right?

[00:52:39]So he criticizes religion and also creates another work criticizing the so-called essence of Christianity. And these works would be decisive for the political changes that would happen in the 19th century. So we have Ferb there, who from the 19th century is the one who will open this perspective, because the previous thinkers didn't exactly have this vision. For example, we had a thinker named Schopenhauer, he's a little before Ferb. He was born in the 16th century, but he lived a good part of his life in the 19th century. But he wasn't, he didn't have the proposal of breaking with religion. Schopenhauer was an atheist. No, I don't believe in God, I don't believe in anything, but I think Christianity is fantastic. I think Christianity is beautiful, I think it's lovely. And he studied Hinduism, he liked to study the philosophy of religions, but he didn't like religious practice and the exploitation that often happened in The environment of faith.

[00:54:00]But he found the logic of Christianity beautiful, the logic of love, the logic of brotherhood. He thought that was very cool. Foerb had a very different thought from Schopenhauer's. He said that Christianity made slaves, that Christianity blinded people, that Christianity was a terrible thing because it made people submit, subjugate themselves, become sheep before their dictators, their enemies, and that this drained people's fiber. And he said that religion was not a pernicious thing and that it had to end and that everything related to aspects of spirituality were really instruments that should be execrated from our society. Very fiery, he is the one who will strongly influence the figure of Marx and Engels. They are, they drink from the source of Foerb's thought and then build their works on top of that idea. Another critic we also had of religions is Nietzsche. Nietzsche, who is a little later, right? He comes around 1900, He passed away in 1900. He had a very tormented life. He had many problems.

[00:55:23]He was very, very difficult, poor thing. But he was an incredible thinker, he left very interesting contributions, but he was also very critical, he was critical of religions too, he also criticized Christianity. But this is a later phase than Ferba's phase, it's as if he were a continuation of his thought. And he, he was the one who said: "God is dead."

[00:55:49]But his idea, God is dead, it's not that God is dead, it's that the idea of ​​a God who commands people and who must obey, has to end. This God has to die, and he was very combative, very harsh in his opinions. He went through a lot, he passed away early and still very young, he ended up getting very sick. His sister took care of him at the end of his short life. I don't even know if he reached 50 years old. I don't know. You have to take a look at that. But he passed away relatively young.

[00:56:32]Right? He gets sick very early and his sister takes care of him in the end. It's like Bocage. Bocage was also cared for by his sister, and then his sister took care of him when he got very sick at the end. Well, and Bocage was also a misfit, right? He was also a critic of the church, and he criticized the church, and the church, to destroy the criticism he made, discredited Bocage. So we have an image of Bocage as a pornographic, obscene, promiscuous man. He was a genius. A genius.

[00:57:10]But because he criticized the church, the church threw mud on his name and it never went away.

[00:57:14]To this day, people see Bocage as a pernicious person. And he was a great thinker too. He's also from the 19th century, right? He's from 18, he's from 1000, no, he's from 1765.

[00:57:33]Yes, he's from the century, but he died in 1805, I think, then you can confirm it. But he also He was a misfit of his time, questioning the flawed model that religion possessed. So, we are going to have a very significant shift in human thought during this period of the 19th century. In the 16th century, it was unthinkable that someone would raise their voice to say: "This is God, he doesn't exist, he has to end, religion is wrong, because people would be persecuted."

[00:58:03]Even the Enlightenment thinkers who said certain things did so with a certain apprehension, because they couldn't be so openly expressed. After the French Revolution, which brought about that break, people gained more courage to speak out. And then, in the 19th century, that courage really took hold. And people began to live this desire for a break very intensely.

[00:58:30]And it was very interesting for the society of that time to destroy this so that there would be no possibility of religion returning—excuse me, yes, religion returning to dictate the rules of society. It had to be persecuted, it had to be annulled so that man, freed from the shackles that religion imposed on him, could reach the heights of knowledge and create the beautiful society that was imagined the 20th century would have, but which ultimately didn't materialize. But it's a learning process, in that model that, speaking of philosophy, Hegel had, that ideas have three phases, right?" There's the thesis, which speaks in one way, and then there's the antithesis, which is the negation of the first to arrive at the synthesis. So, I had an extremely religious society. Oh, he died in 1805. Yes, that was the date I gave, right? 180. He was born in 1765, died in 1805. He was 40 years old.

[00:59:44]Is that right? That's correct. So here, the thesis and antithesis are opposites, but the synthesis is the fruit of the reflection that arises from these two moments. So, it was important that humanity acted so violently, but we went to the opposite side and moved away from those models, how can I say, fanatical, to a model of total rupture with religious views.

[01:00:22]I'm finding this study excellent. I'm following the discussions in the chat. I want to pick a few just so we can talk about them quickly. Look, Renato Rocha brought it up like this: "But in Brazil we have a range of Spiritists who are socialists." Renato, Elará and I are here narrating the facts of history. At no point will I defend either side A or side B. What I will defend, and I think Elará will too, is the ideas of Christ, the Spiritist ideas.

[01:00:53]Now, Spiritists as people, they can be socialists, they can be capitalists, they can have whatever ideas they want. At least that's how I think and what I learned from Elará.

[01:01:05]We just can't take that into our religious movement, take it to the pulpit, into Spiritist practices and think that it's supported by Spiritist doctrine, because it 's neither socialist nor capitalist, it's from above. It's something for our transformation, for the renewal of humanity. And further down Rubens puts it like this: "Without prositism there is the work 'Spiritist Concept of Socialism in the Marine Cosmos'."

[01:01:37]Commenting that socialism in its essence is fundamentally Christian and fraternal. In fact, Rubens, there are principles within socialism, for example, of fraternity, of love for one's neighbor, which are about division, about sharing, which are close to what Jesus put forth.

[01:01:58]But socialism as idealized—I want to change my wording—is not about division, about sharing, to put it better. Sharing, sharing is close to Christian concepts, but socialism, as idealized by Marx, by Engels, just like capitalism, by Jeremy Bentham, by Stuart Mill, by Adam Smith, are concepts very much created by men that we couldn't say are entirely concepts close to religions, because otherwise we end up doing what Emanuel calls fascism. I go one way and think religion has to go with me. I go the other way and think religion has to go with me. In truth, religion is something to ennoble us, to make us better people. So, at certain times, in fact, Spiritism deals with the issue of sharing, the issue of humanity, the issue of bringing people closer, but it also deals with the issue of worshiping God, the worship of the spirituality that exists within me, which is closer to, let's say, those on the right, those who are conservative.

[01:03:10]So, I wanted to address these two points so you can see that we are narrating facts without inserting our personal opinions, and to say that this live stream has space for both.

[01:03:22]For all those who want to study, those who want to converse, because we are in an environment of fraternal dialogue. Yes, that's very important, you know? Now, if we want to know what position to take, the answer is in the last paragraph of The Spirits' Book. It's without violence. That's what it says there. Good spirits have never instigated evil. They have never legitimized murder at any age or violence. And they have never, ah, never legitimized—not legitimized, another word. They have never stimulated hatred between parties. So if there is hatred between parties, it's not the good spirits. Good spirits would never divide people. So, Spiritists have the right to be whatever they want. Right, left. Now, being right, I don't hate the left. Being left, I don't hate the right. Because it doesn't matter which side you're on, if you hated, if you're wrong, the proposal is not to hate. So, I might think one way, Rafael might think another, but that doesn't interfere with the fact that we agree that Jesus is the reference point for our lives. When I choose a figure to be my leader above Jesus, then I'm no longer identified with Spiritism. I've already found another ideology. Spiritism becomes secondary in my life. Perfect. I wanted to mention that here. I was just going to make a very brief comment about everything you said, because the movement of history is a pendulum movement. If we look at how we got to the 17th century, we had a strong presence of religion, it was theocentrism, and it brought with it many dramas that marked people's minds, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition, persecutions, a religion that left many marks on the collective imagination. Then we entered the Age of Enlightenment, the century of reason. And when we arrive in the 19th century, instead of converging towards a middle ground, it was a 19th century where, in the minds of some thinkers, we wanted to abandon the construction of religiosity in favor of constructing materialism, placing man at the center of everything.

[01:05:52]So this Ludwig Ferb presents religion as something that enslaves man. That is, why does a man resort to religion? Because, unable to be a winner in the world, unable to cope with his own anxieties and frustrations, he needs to create an imaginary father, to create a kingdom of heaven. I am reproducing Ferb's texts verbatim: creating metaphysical structures to deal with one's own frustrations. And from Ferb, we have the birthplace of Sigmund Freud's doctrine, who was born on May 6, 1856, and was eminently materialistic. And he, despite being Jewish, despite being Jewish. And his ideas stem from Ferb.

[01:06:44]Anyone who has read Freud will see that Förbá is cited numerous times. And Freud starts from the premise that the figure of God is nothing more than a way to deal with human needs and anxieties. Freud has great insights. When we talk about a person's mistakes, we can't fail to mention their successes. Because Freud, in 1900, which is not the 20th century, but the last year of the 19th century, published a formidable book called *The Interpretation of Dreams*, which in fact introduced a new mental structure: the structure of the unconscious. Unconscious, subconscious, and conscious. And what is the unconscious if not this instinctive part, this part that exists within us, that goes back to past existences? But because he was a materialist, because he was nourished by Förbá's ideas, he said: "No, that's only from uterine life to the present." Did you mention Nietzsche?

[01:07:49]Nietzsche, I've read Nietzsche's work. Nietzsche was the son of Protestant pastors, a bitter creature, a creature at odds with life, because he believed that religion was oppressive, that religion lived off a kind of culture—in Nietzsche's words, an Apollonian culture, because he traced it back to Greek ideology. But the world wasn't only Apollo's; the world was also Dionysus's, because we had our shadow, the god of wine, Apollo is the god of beauty, the god of art, the god of creation. So he said, the church wants to lead everyone to beauty, but forgets that we have our shadow, Dionysian structure, still linked to materiality. So there is no... There's a space for us to deal with our frustrations, because if I make a mistake, I'll go to hell. So, seeing this frustration and dealing with a very controlling father, he decides to break away, writes several books, for example, Ethomo, The Birth of Tragedy, Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

[01:08:58]And in that particular one, he writes a phrase, poor thing, I think he didn't mean that.

[01:09:03]He wanted to refer to a restrictive religion. God is dead. Long live the superman. His phrase and the churches, Überm in German. And the churches are the mausoleum where God was buried. What was Nietzsche's end? Nevertheless, his texts are praiseworthy. Praiseworthy from a literary point of view, because he wrote. He died completely insane. He had no one left at the end of his life.

[01:09:36]His sister stole all his philosophy and the Übermch thesis. The superman was later exploited by Nazism to claim that there was a superior race, Aryanism, which was so disturbing that it was capable of killing 6 million homosexual Jews and Poles. Nietzsche was that kind of figure. I had the opportunity to study him. And we had others. We had, for example, Arthur Schopenhauer. Arthur Schopenhauer was extremely pessimistic. His thesis was that the world revolved around our will. The will was a representation. He completely abdicated the metaphysical element, the spiritual element, to say that man is what he wants, what he desires.

[01:10:31]He builds the world from his representation of will. But this doesn't provide answers to the anguish of human beings when they are sick, when they have problems, when their lives are shattered by pain. I remember Bezerra de Menezes. What has materialism given to people? Because Spiritism has saved many lives. It has saved people from suicide who are going to die, it has given hope back to mothers whose children have died.

[01:11:04]So, Nietzsche, Feuerbach, Freud, uh, Schopenhauer didn't have those answers, but they characterized a century where people were moving away from religion. I just wanted to make a comment about Freud in the following sense. Look, he lived in a period of a very large rise in materialism, positivism, all that stuff that pushed us towards disbelief. So, if he wanted to be a scientist of that time, he couldn't flirt with spirituality, because he risked losing all the good research he had done. So, in order for him to deliver content to society and for it to be consumed by society, he couldn't make contact with anything spiritual. The great rupture between him and his disciple Jung was the aspect of spirituality, because Jung went further, followed more, uh brought some reflections in that sense, but it was already the 20th century.

[01:12:20]And Freud didn't allow himself that so as not to jeopardize all the uh possibilities he could have had to deliver his message. And what was Freud's great insight?

[01:12:40]We always say that Freud talked too much about libido, about sexuality, that he was focused on it, that everything was sex, it was sex. Actually, that's not it. The point is this: Freud's proposal, looking at Feuerba's thought, was that religion mutilated us, to say that our society took sex and transformed it into something unclean, something ugly, sinful, that has to be repressed, that we can't even think about it. So, we took sexuality, put it in a bag, tied its mouth shut, and hid and locked away our expectations and desires in the realm of affectivity, in the realm of sexuality. And this locked-up thing ended up promoting what we can call a disorder. So, why did he say, " Oh, this is a matter of sex"? Because society was so sexually repressed that sex came to be seen as something poisonous. That's why the disorders had an origin in sexuality. And it's not saying the following: yes, it is sex intrinsically that is responsible, it's not the conceptualization that our society has given to sex that promoted this distortion, giving rise to this diversity of neuroses that we experience in society today. But he put everything on top of sex, right? Uh, then Jung will give This expands on that thought, but what's interesting is that he had the courage in the 19th century to bring the discussion about sexuality to the table, to discuss sex in a period when you couldn't even say that word because it was considered ugly. That's his courage. So, he was very important for that reason.

[01:14:48]And the sin, the sin is that in order to sell the product, he had to say, "I'm not going to talk about spirituality," there are some things that people talk about experiences he supposedly had with Jung on some occasions, and he simply denied them peremptorily.

[01:15:11]Even seeing phenomena, he didn't want to accept them because he was also afraid of losing everything he had published, right? And it's interesting. We tend to judge historical figures with our 20th-century mindset. And within history, that's called anachronism, because I need to look at Freud in the time he lived, people. It was the 19th century, the Victorian era, a period where sex was considered unclean by the church. In other words, the greatest, let's say, the greatest virtue a person could have was to renounce sex in order to commune with God.

[01:15:56]But people couldn't do that because sex is a physiological need. So, what was his insight? The frustration of sexual needs generates hysteria. And what is hysteria? When a frustration of a sexual nature appears in the body, for example, women who couldn't see, who had pain, men who couldn't walk and they sought the source of their desires, it had to do with some frustration, it had to do with some sexual problem from childhood, some unmet need. And Joanna de Angeles speaks clearly about this in the 16 books of the psychological series. So he was important for identifying this and especially for identifying this instance in the unconscious. Now, after Jung and others after Freud, they broadened the concept, because man is not reduced to sex. Adler worked with power, Viktor Frankl worked with meaning, and Jung worked with the personal unconscious, the collective unconscious, speaking of atavisms.

[01:17:04]And we know that atavism is nothing more than a reminiscence of past incarnations.

[01:17:10]A very dear friend of mine is asking about Get. Get had a period in the 19th century that marked many young people of the time. He wrote two books. The first was called Faust. Faust was a conversation with Mephistopheles, and Mephistopheles was a representation of the devil. So people read that; it was the man who conversed with the devil. And there was another book, the tragedy of young Werder, who, because of a romantic disappointment, committed suicide. So, in a world where religiosity and spirituality are stagnant, think about romanticism, European romanticism, romanticism in Brazil. That is, if he committed suicide, it's beautiful to commit suicide. It's beautiful. Here in Brazil, people thought it was beautiful to have pneumonia, to drink, to write love poems, and then to commit suicide. So, Get, his book, *The Tragedy of Young Werder*, ended up leading many people to suicide, but he's a character who also has positive aspects. And Silvio, I'll tell you, there's a book by Gate called *Elective Affinities*. And in that book there's a phrase that's very close to that one: *netre morrir renetren cor progresser sess telá* to be born, to die, to be reborn again and to progress without ceasing.

[01:18:41]Such is the law.* He doesn't write it in those words, but some historians say that the phrase in Allan Kardec's Dolmen was inherited from this book by Gate. Others say it was an inheritance from, let's say, the druids of that Celtic period who lived with reincarnation, who lived with immortality. So, you see, everyone has shadow aspects, but they also have light aspects.

[01:19:13]Uh, Rafa, I'm seeing here that it's already 225.

[01:19:23]I think we'll have to do a third one. I think so too. Because we haven't talked about spiritism at all. We talked about the Fox sisters, but we didn't address the spiritist phenomenon itself and all the stories that happened during that period of its emergence and its relationship with Christianity. Oh, and look, I think we could also talk briefly about what historical, dialectical materialism was, because it's important; people think materialism is only about the aspect of... Materialism and historical dialectical materialism was a break with the dialectic of the Greeks to place materialism as a class struggle, that is, a fight; you bring the struggles of everyday life as being historical dialectical materialism. Dialectics ceases to be on the plane of ideas and begins to be in the daily struggles. It was a thesis of Marx in the 19th century. People hear about it. We failed to talk about positivism and Charles Pasteur. We talked about, albeit briefly, communism, anarchism, capitalism, the Napoleonic Wars, we didn't talk about them, but the Napoleonic Wars, there, ending the French Revolution, Napoleon came to the stage, who won several wars, such as the War of Austerlitz, the War of Rivoli, but then lost to Russia, lost at Humaine Terlu. It's Humaine Terlu. And then he ended up being a refugee twice. First on Elba, then on Hagia Sophia. He died on Saint Helena.

[01:21:27]Saint Helena. Saint Helena. And the revolution, the Napoleonic period, and then we have Napoleon again, that is, we have the Emperor of France again. So, a very turbulent period, and it's during the time of Napoleon I, who succeeded Louis Philippe. It's codification. It turns out that Allan Kardec was close to Napoleon, which is interesting. So, we also forgot to talk about the processes of abolishing slavery, especially in the United States, which has very interesting things, because Abraham Lincoln held mediumistic meetings at the White House. And then we have, right, the Independence of Brazil in 1882, the Franco-Prussian War, and the unification of Italy and Germany.

[01:22:25]What do we do? We can leave the next one to talk about positive things. We can talk about Spiritism. Because, in fact, there are some things there that we will have difficulty even connecting with Christianity itself, but some are very important. Pasteur and Darwin are extremely important for the scientific vision of the 19th century, right? The emergence of Spiritism.

[01:22:52]This issue is very important. Positivism, that needs to be discussed. So we can do the next one, positivism, Darwin's origin of species and spontaneous generation, the child of spontaneous generation according to Pastor. Yes. And then you get to the terrible church. It's terrible. The church is stunned.

[01:23:17]Pastor's experience leaves the church... But that's it, there are some questions to answer, right? There are more. Okay, let's go. I have all the time in the world. Yes, with all these apparitions, how can Catholicism not believe in spirits? It doesn't make sense to me. Ah, you have a very good answer when you talk about the conclusion of The Spirits' Book, in part six. Isn't that what you're saying? Ah, yes. Yes, it's in part six, third paragraph, right? When it says that it would be a very false idea to think that spiritualism 's strength comes from its manifestations, it actually comes from its philosophy, which has existed since the beginning of time and whose traces can be found in all religions, especially the Catholic Church, which has the most diverse mediumistic manifestations within it. Chapter A, Conclusion of The Spirits' Book, Part Six, Third Paragraph. Jaqueline may have several apparitions of Mary. A person may see the apparition of Mary, but they will not believe in the apparition of spirits. Well, I would say the following, look, Jaque, it 's not our purpose to criticize people's faith, but note, in the Church's view, it doesn't deny that spirits manifest themselves. It only says that those who manifest themselves are the saints, because every saint who manifests themselves is dead. But not dead, as they are saints. So they know that Saint Anthony, Our Lady, and so on, are all dead, but since they are saints, they appear to people, okay? So, it's important that we understand this.

[01:25:19]And so, it's the condition of each one of us, right? I could say, how can it be that, with all these messages that Spiritists read, they can still be as selfish as they are? It doesn't make sense to me. I could ask that question too, couldn't I? Because, with the amount of messages we receive, we should already be doing a little better, right? Exactly. There's one last question. Until then, but in a way, we'll talk about this next week. Until then.

[01:25:55]In that century, Spiritism hadn't yet been codified by Kardec. How was the Spiritist religion viewed until then, still as occultism? Let's save that question for the next live stream. But that's right, it was occultism, okay? New things require new names. The name Spiritism emerges, the name mediumship emerges; until then it was occultism. I remember when I attended the Seventh-day Adventist Church for a few months. One of the things they said was: "My son, stay away from occultism, because it takes you away from the path to God." Occultism.

[01:26:35]We're done with it. Thank God. Look, can I ask a question a little out of context? Because there was a discussion about surrendering to God. What is the meaning? Ah, that's it. It's resignation. The meaning they want to convey is resignation. But I want to emphasize that the resignation proposed by the Spiritist doctrine is not passive resignation, it's called active resignation, which is acting incessantly, trying to solve your problem in all just ways, without deceiving, without stealing, without cheating, and so on. If I do everything I can and don't succeed, then comes the resignation of " otherwise"—if I did everything I tried and it didn't work, then okay. Because that's how it's meant to be. But I can't say: "Oh, I got sick, I think God doesn't want me to get better, I'm not even going to take medicine. I'll go to the doctor, I'll take medicine, I'll seek a cure, I'll try hard, I'll do everything, I did everything, it didn't work." Yes, then if it didn't work, it didn't work. Okay. You know, Sandra, I learned, I learned this issue of resignation, of holding onto God's hand. And there's also surrendering to God and holding onto God's hand. There was even a hymn in the Catholic church there. I promise I won't sing it. "Hold onto God's hand." Hold on to God's hand.

[01:28:03]But I learned this in Alcoholics Anonymous because there's a prayer there called the Serenity Prayer, which goes like this: "Lord, grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." So, what is resignation? It's not sitting down and accepting everything life throws at me. Challenges, problems, resignation. It's patience, because there are certain things I can't change. So I learn courage, because there are many things I can change, and wisdom to know when to be patient and when to be courageous.

[01:29:00]I'm not listening to you. Is it me or you?

[01:29:05]I wanted to send a very special hug to two people: Lídia Maria Fernandes Rodrigues, who is with us live for the first time, and Gisele Martins, who is also with us live for the first time. A hug to you both, thank you very much for your presence and contributions. Our study is greatly enriched by the contributions you make, which, as we've already mentioned, you research, you bring the dates, right?

[01:29:34]I don't always remember, I can't always remember, but then someone goes there, pulls it up, and we have the possibility of seeing these things in a more effective way. It's very good to have you close to us in our studies. Thank you very much, not only for your presence, but also Flávia Mia, so that we can enrich our work.

[01:30:05]I sent a hello. You sent a hello to you, Flávia Mia. May Jesus bless you, bless your family, may you hold God's hand and move forward. And Larra, I'm very happy, not only to be by your side learning, to be with these people, but also to talk about the 19th century, where we had so many processes of intolerance, processes of discussions in a fraternal way, at least I think it was like that, as it is today, without falling into partisanship. That's really cool. It was great. It's really cool because we need to talk more, my friends. We need to listen to each other. So, this is a life principle I've learned because I've been through several religions. When I want to learn, I listen. There was a philosopher from ancient Greece, one of the creators of Stoicism, who said: "God gave us two ears and one mouth.

[01:31:09]So, when I listen more, I learn." So, I've been learning by listening to her quickly. Bruno Diacomini, good morning to you in Australia, it's already May 28th. My God, Bruno, man, It's dawn, my son, it's already daytime there, I don't know, it's 12 o'clock, it's 10 o'clock in the morning. My God.

[01:31:39]A hug for you, Bruno. That's crazy, man. That's cool. The man who came from the future. Exactly.

[01:31:52]Well, Cleid has already fallen asleep by this point, so we're going to, uh, you're going to forget about me. I'm here. Let's finish our live stream, right? Rafael, it's so good here, isn't it? It's so good to hear you guys, it's a shame to finish, but we have to finish. Next live stream, 19th century. Yes, it's the 10th, June 10th.

[01:32:28]Yes, but it's the 19th century again. Yes, the 19th century again. June 10th. Third part. Third part.

[01:32:38]We had two centuries with three parts. The century of Francis and now the 19th century of Kardec. Yes. It's the century of Kardec. Actually, the 20th century. Then it could be the century of Chico.

[01:32:52]I don't know if there will be so much. Oh my God. Wow! We still need to talk about the noble, we still need to talk about modern spiritualism in conjunction with Spiritism.

[01:33:03]Modern spiritualism. Exactly. I'm writing it down here. Exactly. And today I want to say a prayer. Okay, we can. Of course. Let's go. Let's go. Okay. Let's go. Close, Cle in prayer. Lord, everything in the universe testifies to your greatness, giving proof of the power of creation. Everything around us is a poem of beauty, from the microparticle to the great stars of immensity. My father, let me thank you for life, this opportunity for work and redemption. Allow me to make it noble and flourishing, honoring my steps with the virtues of the heart. I thank you for my family and material work. Celestial blessings that allow me to advance. Give me strength to continue on the path of good, to be able to continue.

[01:34:09]I thank you for all the blessings that visit my reincarnation. They are the ones that test my fidelity and promote the effort of overcoming. I am grateful for the spiritism of peace and light, the doctrine that restores love. Through it we reconnect with Jesus, understanding the purpose of all pain. Finishing my prayer, I ask that I not stray from the paths of charity, for this is the virtue that makes me progress in the search for Jesus in spirit and truth. So be it.

[01:34:51]Very beautiful. That would make a good song, wouldn't it?

[01:34:57]No, Cleite.

[01:35:00]Open it. You have to open it. It would make a good song. Send me the lyrics, Rafael, and I'll write a song for you. It's almost a Lila for the 46th birthday. Beautiful. Look, I put 19 so as not to mention the 46th. It's very good, everyone. I want to thank everyone for being here, and invite you to be there. What day will it be, Cleid? The 10th. June 10th.

[01:35:42]That's right. I'll already be in Porto Velho on June 10th. And the other one is on the 24th.

[01:35:52]Oh, in the history of Christianity there are also our lesser brothers. Oh, how lovely, how cute. What's his name, Rafa? Chico. Chico. Yes, we have a Chico here at home and another Chico here. Oh, that's great. Very good.

[01:36:18]Good night everyone. See you on the 10th. Good night. God bless you all. Bye.