Malaysia's Brain Drain. The Honest Version

Added: 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]Somewhere in this country right now, a Malaysian parent is helping their kid pack a suitcase, you know, with all the Maggie Nasama stuff like kids going to Singapore, maybe London, maybe Australia, maybe Dubai. The parent is smiling for the photo. Inside they are very nervous. They're gutted. Okay, we have done this for 20 years. Officially 1.86 million people of us have left.

[00:00:20]That is about 5.6 5.7% of the population. The world average is apparently 13.6. The polite word for it is brain drain. The honest word is maybe a loss. I could be hard here. Okay, so we'll let my guests talk about that.

[00:00:33]Every few years we panic about it. We hold a forum. We write a report.

[00:00:37]Somebody quotes some kind of numbers.

[00:00:39]Maybe nothing changes. So today I sat down with the one man who would actually know if any of this is crap or is it real. Thomas Matthews ran Talent for 5 years. The agency built specifically to fix this. He just stepped down which means apart from riding his bike and also playing hockey, he has got some questions to answer. I I'm being tough here, but we'll ask him. Okay, I have one job today. We're going to ask him the question. Is this brain drain even real or is it something that we are making up?

[00:01:07]>> It's the book of J. [music] [music] >> This is the book of Jake. My name is Jake Abdullah. Let's talk to Thomas Matthews. Thank you for coming. Thank you for agreeing. you know, this is not a seat somebody would want to step into immediately and and talk about it because it's a sensitive topic. So, before we get into that, tell me how you're doing after your official [laughter] resignation.

[00:01:40]>> Um, yeah, it was a tough couple of months. I thought I could sort of bite through the time, but then I realized that I have to go back to doing something. Uh, so I'm back to doing some advisory work. I do my writing. I have time for myself and I'm also playing hockey a little bit more. So, I'm enjoying myself. You're doing all this and how old are you?

[00:01:58]>> I'll be 65 this year.

[00:01:59]>> Oh, wow. You look great, man. You got hair. [laughter] >> Always kided Thomas about, you know, he's got hair and he looks really handsome. [laughter] Yeah. Why did you leave in the first place?

[00:02:09]>> Honest uh Jake, I wanted to leave in 2024. I had plans to leave. Uh at that point in time, I would have hit 63 and I told myself, uh enough. I maybe was not very comfortable with how things were heading but at the same time I also felt very strongly that the team that was in place was good >> and I felt very strongly that they could continue the momentum.

[00:02:30]>> Okay.

[00:02:30]>> Uh so but I then extended for another year spoke to the minister about it >> and last November I left.

[00:02:36]>> So was the minister at that time is Steven Sim reluctant to let you go?

[00:02:40]>> Honestly I mean he offered me to stay on but he also knew that I had made a decision. Coming back to to to what you have achieved in talent cop and kasuma and all that run us uh through that >> when I first came in in 2020 uh Jake uh I came into >> this is covid period right >> covid period exactly you know I had left I came back and this thing fell on my plate um I asked people about for the opinion a lot of them said why in the world would you want to go into talent cop you know it's got all of this baggage >> explain that explain that to me what baggage >> yeah because at that point in time there was an already by Jabatan audit a lot of governance issues independence of board um no audit internal audit functions no board committees um you know and uh financially also the company was not self- sustaining it was depend on the government quite a bit of money had gone in but the outcome was questionable so all of these challenges were there >> so when I came in I came in also together with a new board and we setting the governance up in place was pretty easy. There's a formality that was done.

[00:03:48]We changed the auditors. We changed the company secretary and then getting the financial structure right was key. We did that. We did that. Uh in fact, you know, we introduce a lot of things that corporates do. Tax planning of course cost cutting measures, reporting to the board and then making sure that we had we did enough to generate revenue that we're not dependent on the government anymore. And we did that. What was the biggest initiative was the >> the my experts expense but to do that it was simple because earlier in 2018 2019 I believe the agency had tried to increase a fee but there was a huge backlash but in 2021 what we did was we set up the satellite center in KIA. Now that was actually >> I just saw when I was coming back in KIA 2.

[00:04:31]>> You saw that right?

[00:04:32]>> Yes. Yes. Brilliant. Yeah. That's right.

[00:04:33]So that was set up in 2024. the the first one was in KIA1 in 2021. That changed the game because for companies that bring in expatriots, they do not have to board them in a hotel, pay for lodging, etc. and all of that, and then bring them to my experts office, work with immigration there to get their pass. And that could easily take between two to four weeks. By having one in satellite KIA1, the expert that comes inside immediately gets a sticker the very next day on the job. That saved huge amount of money. So at that point in time we increased the fee and our fees was only about 300 ringgit. We increased it to 800 that immediately moved up the revenue from something like 2030 million to 60 plus million.

[00:05:14]>> So 60 million is you are self-sufficient.

[00:05:17]>> Not yet. Okay. It's self-sufficient to cover your OE but not for the things that we want to do. In 2024, uh the government ministry of economy recognized that talent corp had a platform that was working very well called my experts and they gave us the duty to set up a one point one center uh platform. Companies apply through that platform called experts gateway. That again saved companies a lot of money because what took 3 to 6 months was shuten down to something like 20 days.

[00:05:45]We went back to the companies and said we're doing all of this. We're maintaining the platform. We brought you a lot of benefits. We want to increase the fees and we increase the fees again to 2,000. And then we also increase a fee for RPT resident. This is for expatriates that's that can apply for a 10 years stay after their first 3 years.

[00:06:01]>> Okay.

[00:06:01]>> And that's a incentive that the government gives for high-profile expats. We spoke to the chambers and we asked the chambers and we said I've got some good news and I've got some bad news. And I said I want to increase the peace. So they told me what is the bad news? [laughter] because they were very comfortable that we were providing them a service which is also hindering what they wanted to do in terms of bringing every day an expert is delayed will cost them money of course >> because they have identified a role for the person.

[00:06:26]>> So that way pushed up our revenue to something like above 100 million.

[00:06:31]>> So then we could do a lot of things.

[00:06:32]What we're doing is plowing back that money into local talent development.

[00:06:36]>> Mhm.

[00:06:37]>> So that's how we sort of get got our uh our financials right. Then we could start doing things which were impactful.

[00:06:45]Jake, I stand by this policy and I tell my people that you can't expect a different outcome by doing the same things over and over again.

[00:06:51]>> Totally.

[00:06:52]>> We need to do things differently. So in each one of the talent segment, we decided to do things differently. For example, for university students, okay, we work with them for internship and at the end of 2024, we set a policy where for every expatriate that comes inside into the country, the company must take up to three interns. So that way of pushing because close to >> local [clears throat] interns right of course >> local interns of course to meet the talent requirements of the country we had to go to school. So something new that we did over the 5 years was we went into schools at the age >> grassroot level >> grassroot because they do streaming and that's an archaic system that we have.

[00:07:27]You go into arts you can't go into science once you've done that.

[00:07:30]>> We know we come from that time.

[00:07:31]>> Exactly. So we had to tell them uh make them uh realize what are the job opportunities that are there because of digitalization new jobs that are coming up. Parents don't know, teachers do not know. So we inform them that way parent and a teacher can then like I said chart the career path. So we've been active into schools. Another thing that we did was army veterans. Again >> I remember this as part of this >> exactly a space that was actually ignored for a long time. They they retire at the age of 40. They get a pension probably half their salary and then what happens is that they do not know what to do. They end up as security guards but a lot of them have skills.

[00:08:06]They're electricians. They may be plumbers. They may be instrumentation experts. So the question is and they don't have certificates. So the question is we worked with uh Mindaf and looked at how we can certify them. At the same time we mapped their skills to the sector councils that we created and they found a guys have the skills that I need.

[00:08:24]>> Can I ask is there continuity with all these projects that you have done? Is talent cop still pursuing this?

[00:08:31]>> As far as I know, they are uh the team that is put into place is very strong. I know that Mindv is working closely. In fact, I think there was an MOA uh prior to my living already being sort of drafted to be signed off. So I think everything is in place and running.

[00:08:46]>> Okay. So now that is speaking about the external coming in experts coming in and also to a certain degree how we are actually increasing the the talents or or the capabilities or ability of locals. I'm doing this podcast is because I actually spoke about this in LinkedIn and it blew up. So the elephant in the room is how actually are we curbing our talent from leaving the country because one comment was actually irked me says well you know our T20 is as highly paid as a lorry drive in Singapore. Are people leaving the country to earn more?

[00:09:17]>> Now this is something that was thrown at Talent Cop and I think you started off by saying you are the agency responsible. I need to sort of correct that if I may and the reason I'm saying that is Talent Cop is merely a facilitator.

[00:09:28]>> Okay.

[00:09:28]>> Uh but we've changed the the scenario the always the scenario was when a Daspora wants to return he can apply through talent cop for the returning expert program. Talent cop does not get a job for that individual. A lot may apply, a lot may return and they do not return only because they do not get a job. And if they don't get a job, it the the is the incentives are only formalized when they get a job in the skill for which they've applied. Now it's a strict ruling because the question is a Malaysian here is very loyal and then here we are giving somebody who comes from abroad who's left the country coming and then we give an incentive. Why do we do that? We are careful in who we give it. What we do is an exercise called a critical occupation list. Every year we identify where there are gaps in the country with respect to this particular skill and it is those that we actually give the incentive a lot that we reject.

[00:10:17]>> What are the incentives like a cap?

[00:10:19]>> It's a 15% flat tax for 5 years uh duty of cars and this has to be local assembled cars now and then also their personal belongings also they can get duty off. So those are the three incentives. Going back to this numbers this 5.6 The six narrative came about during my time in talent because people say Malaysia's brain drain is very high.

[00:10:41]When you say high, you must have a reference point. Of course, certainly.

[00:10:44]>> So, we looked at the global numbers and the global numbers is where the 281 million over the world population they get a 3.6%. Now, let's break our numbers up because we need to because ultimately you're looking at numbers and big numbers scares everybody. But you need to break it down and see how these numbers really what these numbers really mean. Okay. So the 1.86 86 million is a 2020 number. Now if you break it down 1.135 is in Singapore okay the 720 plus and if you look at the numbers then Singapore probably works up to maybe 3.4% the balance is 2.2 okay now the question is the 2.2 to UK, Australia, US, wherever. Okay. Now, the reasons for them leaving may be quite different from Singapore. Singapore the one okay then you break down the 1.135 uh million >> and DOSM has done a study on that. Out of that 38% are those employed in Singapore. The rest are people who do business, students, >> okay, >> spouses and children.

[00:11:46]>> Okay. So now you're worried about 38% which is 430,000 which is a big number.

[00:11:51]Now when you look at who's semi-skilled and skilled in that it is 74%. That brings down the number to 335,000.

[00:11:58]>> 74% >> of that uh 430,000 are those which are semi-skilled and skilled which is what really the brain drain we are worried about. Okay. So those are the numbers we talk. Now are the numbers something that we need to be worried about? Yes we need to. It's not like as if we can say 335 is something we accept. Okay.

[00:12:16]>> But what do we do about that? Okay, we have this numbers but the question is why are they even leaving? And this is sometimes what we do at Talent Cop. We start with a problem statement first and I I I don't I think I shared with the T.

[00:12:30]We have 300,000 graduates graduating every year. The number is standing at about 6 million total graduates.

[00:12:37]Highskilled jobs only about 2.2 2.3 million. That excludes the public sector. Okay, you have another one plus million in the public sector. That's where underemployment comes in. onethird of our graduates are undermployed.

[00:12:49]>> Mhm.

[00:12:49]>> Okay. And that's >> So what do you think is there a surplus of >> Yes. Compared to the jobs created, high skill jobs created. So we are ending up not creating enough highskilled jobs >> to support all the graduates that we have. So that's one challenge. But again, what are they coming up in terms of skills? Are the skills meeting what the industry wants? So onethird of our >> So it hasn't been mapped yet. Yeah.

[00:13:10]>> It it has well through the critical occupation list, we are trying to map that. through the my mah study we're trying to map that but the point I'm trying to make is that we do not have enough high skil jobs for all our graduates and that's why a lot of them end up being undermployed which is worrying because they are degree holders spends four years in the university comes out and don't get a job when you look at our unemployment numbers I know the government says it's 2.9% but if you take our youth 15 to 24 it's 9.8%.

[00:13:38]>> Oh wow >> you know >> and if you take you extend it to 15 to 30 it is 6%. Now those are worrying factors. When we say that we are worried about them going to Singapore, the question is has our economy grown enough to create jobs enough for all our graduates and are the graduates that we're producing meeting what the industry wants because there's no point in us just pushing out graduates and it's very sad for the graduates because we're doing a huge disservice to them but not telling them about what are the career opportunities that are out there.

[00:14:08]>> So that is why you need to intervene at school level. Certainly requires a lot of work. Uh we've spoken to companies they say on their own they can't create enough jobs so that's where FDI comes in and the government is pushing for FDIs now the numbers are big yes but how many of them actually materialize is a separate question >> so where the two solutions that I see for the Singapore part okay >> the Singapore part is you know for a fact it's the currency differentials that's pushing Malaysian goes without saying okay I think if you look at the median gross salary Singapore is running at about 5,700 Malaysia is about 3,000.

[00:14:43]So you know ours is less than a thousand Singh compared to five to six times there. The issue is how do we actually entice them to come back? We need to create employment. So the Joho Singapore special economic zone was actually one avenue because there there what the government has done is the government has actually given a better incentive.

[00:15:01]>> You're talking about the government you're talking about the Singaporean government.

[00:15:04]>> No the Malaysian government. So Malaysian government is working with Singapore that the backhand the operating operations because Singapore is getting too expensive factories can relocate industries can relocate in the IRA region. I think the 11 sectors altogether >> so the the the income in that region is higher than >> yes the state government has is pushing investors to at least give 3,500 to a diploma holder and maybe more than 4,000 for a degree holder.

[00:15:34]>> Okay. So they're pushing for that. That would have been a good way sort of to entice the Malaysians back. Those are like I said earning those salaries or around those salaries. The other way that uh where talent cop has created and this something that we speak to Malaysian diaspora when we go around is we also have a talent council that we've created for 18 sectors. Industry leaders sit on that. If you were looking for an opportunity, we could pass on your application or CV to these people.

[00:16:03]Talent was always doing the RDP when we speak about 1.86 million Malaysians out there. We haven't got a clue who they are.

[00:16:10]>> Why we don't capture data data or >> so when I came to talent cor uh and all we know is whoever applied over the last 10 years that data we have but we don't have anybody else's. So even if you wanted to entice somebody to come and say Micron is looking for a senior energ engineer in this particular expertise who who do we even talk to? So that is why we created the my heart platform. We didn't want to stop our conversation with a diaspora to a question are you coming back? If you're not coming back, thank you very much. That's it. We wanted for them to actually come onto our platform register. RP becomes one of the components. You want to collaborate, you can collaborate with us. Malaysia abroad generally they have huge love for the country. They want to contribute.

[00:16:56]Okay. But they don't have the platform to do that. Another person was Dr. Amy Po out of University of Tokyo. Two years ago, she did a joint visionary conference between Malaysia and Japan.

[00:17:06]Uh Talent COP supported researchers flights cost from here to go to Japan and they presented their research papers. Now those may end up as actionable items. The second JVC conference is happening this year. We want this kind of like I said things to happen. To do that you need to have a platform. So, so when you look at the reasons why Malaysians leave and like I said, you know, chances are Indians and Chinese will always have to say something about this. What's important?

[00:17:33]>> What is that?

[00:17:34]>> What is that? It maybe the fact that uh we are we we may not have a career here, you know, if we stick around the country, it's better opportunities outside. Is it stigmatization or is it just everybody's repeating or paring what people say or >> it could be it could be a fear and I I want to tell you that because you see we can do all of these things talent wise Malaysia doesn't have any shortage trustwise I think there's a deficit >> I like that >> uh because you see if if we don't deal with that there will always be like you said a parent saying child just leave the country >> somehow I I I feel that we're just repeating what others are saying it's a stigma it's >> you know So is there a real inherent problem?

[00:18:14]>> I have never felt it. I have worked through but I with the corporate sector I worked through banks. I worked through data. I was an MBF holdings. I'm in talent. Even talent cop we get the best of talents. I have never felt it like that. I hear it. I don't think it is unreal. The situation is sometimes we play it up. You see when I went to Australia I remember sitting with the diaspora team and the conversation centers purely around Malaysia. Think about Australia. So I I sort of joke with them and I said, "I'm sure every morning you guys wake up, look for Malaysian news and then satisfy yourself that you had a reason why you left the country. We give them so much of bad news." I think the media also need to be smart. Why do we play up this racial sentiment?

[00:18:55]>> Exactly. Why do you even cover these people saying these things? You don't actually you all you're doing is putting fear into people.

[00:19:02]>> I'm glad you said that because that's the truth, you know. Yes. uh there there could be instances of this but I do feel that there is like you and I are not traditionally Malay we have succeeded to a certain point in our areas and there is so much fear-mongering that it's actually scary >> you know how do we curb this I would say just don't give any coverage to these people who create all this kind of stories >> why does a press cover >> why does a press need to cover because it's sensational news and you want to cover it but you don't realize the consequence influences it has on an individual, a family, a child. You don't realize that, you know, I I can tell you and it cuts across every race. You know, when I was in Japan, you know, we met up and we had a visionary conference, we called the diaspora in, you know, how many Malay families have settled on in Japan?

[00:19:51]>> I was just skating to [laughter] the >> plenty. Plenty.

[00:19:55]>> If that was a case, why would they have left? Right.

[00:19:57]>> Exactly. And and the question is, it's not like as if they're earning big bucks in single in Japan. They're not. But they like the culture there. They like the fact that a child can take a train, go to school and come back and feel safe. Totally. I mean, I love Malaysia.

[00:20:10]I mean, traveled around the world working during my MBF days and I was in Sri Lanka. Nothing like our country. Um, this rhetoric by politicians sometimes uh irresponsible. I just feel the media needs to be responsible uh stop it where it's required and don't amplify these things. Maybe there a lot of people who need to speak up as well, the good people. Why don't you cover that? Why why do I have that's why I'm having you here. So just to tap on something you said and this is is is in my mind before I forget. There are a few things that you mentioned that could help. Number one, the mapping of jobs to actually education.

[00:20:45]>> Okay. Do we have the right skill people for the available jobs or are the universities and and and places of higher learning actually acting as a factory and just churning out you know university degrees? And you spoke about the you know um unemployment rate in Malaysia.

[00:21:01]>> How do we actually fix this? U actually at 2.9% is actually deemed as uh full employment. Actually 2.9% is a good number. It's the youth that we need to worry about. You know what the median age of Malaysia is? Uh it's 31.

[00:21:15]>> Mhm.

[00:21:15]>> Okay. We're pretty young. I mean we are growing into an aging age. We are pretty young. Singapore is 44.

[00:21:19]>> Oh yes.

[00:21:20]>> Thailand is 41. Singapore doesn't have to worry about the median age. You know why? Because we are there. We are providing them. They don't have to worry about aging at all.

[00:21:29]>> This is interesting thought. So actually keeping them young.

[00:21:32]>> Exactly. They they don't have to worry because they tap on our people and we go down there and we serve them. So this 30 year old generation is actually the demographic is very important because if we don't do things right, it's good.

[00:21:44]It's positive because you get investors come in and say you got a young population. We speak well. Our infrastructure is good. Everything is right. You know we have the right talent pool etc. But at the same time if we don't provide them jobs what could be positive can become a real danger because children can revolt >> you know I mean the young generation can revol doing doing that right is important uh this is not peculiar to uh to Malaysia it is around the world but like I said there are solutions that we need to put into place we cannot expect to do the same thing and have a different outcome we can't do that so some of the things that we did at talent cop we tried to be very strategic about this because understanding what the problem is then you deal with the root the problem. So that's why I said we go to and uh now the team is trying to actually pan that thing to make it because there are 10,000 school. How do you go to every school and we are a 300 plus organization but what we're trying to do is do online whatever that is required to reach out to schools to tell them that the careers in this uh you know there are different careers out there. It's not only the the medicine or the engineering or whatever but you know you have animation, you have gaming, you have esports children can thrive in that. What did China do? And this is where China has invested to actually stem the brain drain. They invested massively into education. The Singua, the peing universities are world class.

[00:23:01]So they made sure that they gave enough reasons for their own Chinese youth to come into the education system to go out and create businesses of their So was it mapped to requirement or mapped to the country's requirement or was it just >> I I I do not know the details but I know that they made it a point to invest because they felt very strongly they didn't want the western influence to step inside. They wanted to create their own talent pool to go out and create own businesses and drive uh like I said employment etc. 40 years ago when I was studying the default unity to go to was the local unities. The question is is that is that the case today? are our local unities the default unities that every child wants to try and go into >> or is it not and if it's not what do we need to do that is different okay so these are things that you know I mean public unities also need to understand so when we did the my study and uh it was a very good study uh thanks to YB Steven Sim who you know understood the strategic uh opportunity that was there and to look at how AI digitalization and green economy could impact our workforce what needs to be And through that process we actually looked at the skilled roles uh or the taxonomy for all skilled roles across 18 sectors and we decide well we determined both the technical skills and the soft skills. We are hoping today that unisties could take this and say for example I'm producing an engineer a mechanical engineer whatever engineer or an EN engineer I need to make sure that all of these skills come into play before I send that person out into the world. If the unities don't use what is the industry inside then it's going to be a waste.

[00:24:38]>> That's the question I asked. Is it mapped to requirement?

[00:24:41]>> At this point in time I won't say it is.

[00:24:43]I won't say it is. I think there are unities like I have to name it only because I think some of these industries do pretty well. AP is a good example. Uh when you talk to Datu Paramjit he says 90 plus% of his staff are actually from the corporate because end of the day it is the industries that create jobs. So you need to know what's happening in the industry and there is certainly a gap and the gap is going going to widen. So unless you bring both together which is what we've been trying to do at talent bring industry and academia together as much as possible so that you know so that that gap is minimized as >> and you did that with the T50 but unfortunately they are not using it as effectively as they should or perhaps they have some other you know pressing agendas that they are talking about.

[00:25:23]Thomas, I I want to ask you one question. You keep using the word we like you're still in Telenop, you know, and [laughter] and and and tells me >> that you still have some unfinished business in this area and it's sort of nagging. I could be wrong, right? I could be wrong. Given a free hand and let's not use talent corp as the agency.

[00:25:42]Given a free hand, how would you fix this issue?

[00:25:45]>> There are a lot of people wanting to contribute to fixing this problem.

[00:25:49]>> I like to I would like to think so.

[00:25:51]There are there are many I mean even the councils that we created and and mind you this is a three-year initiative last week uh the World Bank issued the uh economic monitor for Malaysia and when they spoke about skills for Malaysia to build on the good practices that are there and they cited PSDC and they cited my Maher and they cited FSTC. So there must be something right that we have done. All our council members they are very supportive of wanting to drive changes to ensure like I said your mapping issues are resolved. It is sitting down with them sitting down with universities and then like I said making sure that happens. What I told talent cop is this you've done the study. Today it's time you also endorse unities and recognize who actually adopts maybe industry standards so that even a kid will know hey if I'm going to go to the university is the university adopting academic thing as well as the industry standards are applied to do that you need to sort of acknowledge and maybe endorse. So if you could do three things, you know, in one sentence, three sentences to stop the brain drain in Malaysia, what would you do? And don't think so hard. What would you do in the top of your mind?

[00:26:58]>> I we need to give our youth hope in this country.

[00:27:01]>> Mhm.

[00:27:02]>> I think that's the one thing because if you give hope to them, our youth can invest into a company here. But the question is or into the country, will the country invest into their future?

[00:27:12]invest in if our youth know that we on the right track people will come and continue to stay here and won't be going out. But of course, the currency differential will still be an issue that cannot be resolved. But assuming everything was status quo, >> I would say uh the hope is very important.

[00:27:30]>> Is the economy going to grow? Okay. Is it on the right track? Are we saying the right things? Are we coming together as a people? And these are things like I said, it's all about emotions. End of the day, it's not an easy decision to leave.

[00:27:40]>> Yeah. It's informing the youth >> that they have to they there's hope and stuff. I really like that. I actually feel that your departure is too early.

[00:27:50]You know, probably you wanted to ride your bike and and go play hockey and stuff, but I still think that there's so much you can contribute and I could be wrong. Maybe your wife doesn't allow you to work anymore. I don't know, [laughter] you know. But I think you left too early. Anyway, thanks for being on the podcast, guys. Quick one before I let you go. 80% of you are watching right now and you have not subscribed yet. 80%. If the conversation meant something to you, if Thomas earned a minute of your respect today, please drop him a line. If you know his number, do me one favor. Hit subscribe, you know, that's it. One click. It is free.

[00:28:25]It is the thing that helps me and this channel grow. And it is the reason I keep doing this because I want guests who can inform you, you know, like Thomas and also answer questions that nobody's asking. So go on, hit it. I will wait. Okay, please do it. Do not rush. Thomas, thank you for being here.

[00:28:42]It's been fantastic. And again, like I said, I'm so jealous that you have a full head of hair. [laughter] >> So, I hope to see you contribute more to our country because I enjoyed working with you near Talent Corp and we need people to actually have this pride of Malaysia and giving back to the country.

[00:29:00]Thanks for being here, Thomas.

[00:29:01]>> Most welcome.

[00:29:02]>> It's the book of J. [music] >> [music]