22nd Edition of RGDE|Speaker Dr Gurcharan Das,Distinguished Author, Commentor & Public Intellectual

Added: 2026-05-21

[00:00:00]A very good evening to everyone.

[00:00:04]This is your host Utam Prakash. Welcome to the 22nd edition of Reimagining Governance Discourse for Excellence.

[00:00:13]It's my privilege to welcome the most noted personality Shri Gorucharand Das.

[00:00:25]It's also my privilege to welcome senior officers from across the country. Shri Ashish Vij member central board of trustees and all lovely audience who have been waiting for so long. Thank you so much. This evening we explore a profound dilemma.

[00:00:46]What does it mean to be good? Our guest this evening has spent a lifetime thinking about this very question.

[00:00:57]My privilege once again to welcome Shri Guru Charan Das sir as we all know is one of India's most respected public intellectuals a rare mind who has managed to bring moral philosophy out of the classroom and into everybody's life educated at Howard he went on to lead Proctor and Gamble India as its CEO before deciding to leave corporate life and write full-time at the age of 50.

[00:01:34]We soon got the classic India Unbound.

[00:01:41]This was a landmark book on India's economic awaken awakening and that explained with unusual clarity how a nation rises when its people are set free to create.

[00:01:57]Years later he took what he calls an academic holiday not like us not to take rest but to study we all will be surprised Sanskrit to understand Mahabharat and her mother cautioned him for his restlessness saying this is the time for your vanoprasta that that journey of reflection became the difficulty of being good where he turned the lens inward from markets to morality. He reminds us that dharma is not a rule book. It is a conversation, an inner dialogue about right and wrong in the face of life's confusions. And so it is a real honor to welcome Guru Sharandas, a mind as sharp as it is human.

[00:02:58]He reminds us again that the hardest part of doing good is not knowing what is right. Rather, it is about finding the courage to live it.

[00:03:10]Thank you so much, sir, for joining us.

[00:03:13]It's our rare and real privilege.

[00:03:17]Before we proceed further, may I request Sri Manish Nayer who is present at your place to formally felicitate you sir and it is a token of our deep respect and appreciation for joining us this evening.

[00:03:43]>> Thank you.

[00:03:45]We can't hear the applause sir on the screen because everyone is muted.

[00:03:52]So please consider it as an applause and a standing ovation from all the officers across the country. Thank you so much for accepting our humble gesture with such a grace and without asking for a performance appraisal.

[00:04:07]May I now invite Shri Kumar Rohit, director of the Pandit Dinalupad National Academy of Social Security for his welcome address. Sir, most welcome.

[00:04:28]Thank you. Utam, respected CPFC sir, Sri Gurucharand Gi and my dear colleagues, we have joined from all corners of the country today.

[00:04:42]It is both a privilege and pleasure to welcome you all to the 22nd edition of re-imagining governance discourse for excellence.

[00:04:53]our flagship platform for reflection, dialogue, and inspiration. With its root in good governance day 2023, this series has over the past two years grown into a space where ideas meet action.

[00:05:12]The conversations here have visible footprints where it was a training module on compassion in governance after Kalar Satyati's session a renowned focus on health and well-being following Dr. Davi set's talk or process reform and agility inspired by Shri Sanjiv Sanal's insights.

[00:05:36]Each dialogue has moved beyond reflection to renewal and today's discussion carries that same spirit forward. We are deeply honored to host Sri Gucharandazi, a thinker who has made philosophy accessible to everyday life through works like the difficulty of being good. He has shown that questions of dharma are not relics of mythology but daily tests for judgment, honesty and courage. His writing compels us to look inward and to ask not only what we do but why we do. For those of us in public service that reflection is essential. Governance after all is not only about policy or progress but also a moral practice.

[00:06:33]Every file, every signature, every decision hides a quiet moral choice.

[00:06:39]to act fairly, to listen with humility, to balance rule with reason.

[00:06:47]At the academy, our role is to prepare officers not only for administration but for awareness and to pair skill with sensibility.

[00:06:59]The difficulty of being good reminds us that goodness in governance is an ornament, but it is the foundation. Sri Gucharand gi your presence today reminds us that ethics need not be abstract. It can be lived spoken and practiced the way we think, decide and serve. On behalf of Pedunas and the EPFO family nationwide, I extend a warm and heartfelt welcome to you sir. We look forward to an evening that will make us think deeply. question kindly and perhaps act a little more wisely. Thank you, Jin Jharat.

[00:07:44]>> Thank you so much, sir. The academy has always been a place where reflections lead to reform and where ideas don't just stay on paper as you rightly pointed out, they travel into policy.

[00:07:57]Thank you for those thoughtful reflections. A reminder that governance like Dharma needs wisdom and a good Wi-Fi connection.

[00:08:06]May I now invite our central provident fund commissioner Shri Romesh Krishna Morti to welcome our esteemed guest and address us please.

[00:08:21]>> Good afternoon and uh a very warm welcome to Shri Gcharandas.

[00:08:27]Uh I thank uh PDNAS uh for uh hosting this 22nd edition of uh reimagining uh governance discourse for excellence and today's topic I think is extremely critical as uh Kumar Rohit already explained u I think [snorts] this process of engaging with uh eminent personalities ities um is extremely important for EPFO. Uh their thoughts, their wisdom uh and their experience sharing I think continuously reinforces the good in us [snorts] and ensures that we think along those lines. So uh today's topic I think is extremely relevant. The difficulty of being good.

[00:09:18]I think everyone accepts that we have to be good particularly in EPFO when we um straddle public service with financial prudence. uh I think uh it's a fine balance between um what is that we can do when uh we are good doing good but at the same time we have to also make sure uh that we are um absolutely correct in terms of financial propriety in terms of [snorts] uh what the rules uh tell us uh what are the rights and responsibilities so this fine balance I think will be enriched by Mr. Gulcharandas I think who's again straddled both the corporate world um and also I would say that in his uh avtar as a as a public speaker on ethics good governance compassion uh excellence I think u we all would uh be very very benefited uh from his words of wisdom today So with these I again welcome Shri Gharand Das and uh um hope that our entire uh comrades and and friends at EPFO uh benefit from your uh from your advice and wisdom. Thank you again.

[00:10:47]>> Thank you so much sir. Under your leadership, EPFO continues to show that governance is not just about systems but about the trust that sustains them and perhaps the occasional reminder email that keeps them running. In my excitement to welcome Gurucharan sir, I have forgotten welcoming you sir. So please forgive me. Thank you so much for understanding.

[00:11:16]And now it's my privilege to invite Gurucharan Sa, author, philosopher and one of India's most enduring moral voices for the keynote address.

[00:11:29]All I ears to you sir the floor is yours because in India unbound you wrote about India's economic liberation in the difficulty of being good you ask deeper questions and we are privileged to have you with us today and we are keen to understand why the real battlefield is not kuruchet but the human heart. The floor is all yours sir. Most welcome.

[00:11:59]Thank you.

[00:12:02]I'm uh uh well welcome to my home uh to all the EF EPFO people who are online and uh I'm Garandas but my name was not all my name used to be Ashok Kumar until the age of four when my grandmother discovered she thought she discovered she suspected Ed that my mother had given me that name because she thought my mother was secretly in love with a Bollywood actor named Ashok Kumar. Now I don't know you're young people but you may not remember that Ashok Kumar in the 1940s was a combination of Amitab Bachan and Shah Ruk Khan. So big deal but she didn't think that name was appropriate.

[00:13:00]So she took me to her guru. She placed me at his feet and she told the guru guru gun give this boy a name and the she placed me at his feet and she said das.

[00:13:21]So overnight I was transformed from the prince of happiness Ashok Kumar to the humble servant of the feet of the guru and when I grew up I went to the guru and I asked him why did you give me that name and he said son it's a good idea to be reminded about humility in life and then he gave me the very best definition of humility that I have heard and frankly it is perhaps the most important characteristic of successful leaders whether in business or politics or wherever and his definition was take your work seriously but not yourself seriously and this also became I few years ago ago, couple of years ago, I wrote my memoir uh another sort of freedom. And the dedication to this memoir is to the to the happy few who don't take themselves seriously.

[00:14:39]And so I think that's a central moral idea as well which has been um which has been a part of my life. Excuse me. Yeah, please don't move around. It it disturbs me. Sorry. Uh there was too much action going on around here. So I was trying to tell you how I was named and so yes I've written a book the difficulty of being good and this is a book which interrogates the mahabharat and its premise or major one of its major lessons is that an act of goodness is one of the most valuable things that human beings possess.

[00:15:45]I also come from a family of government servants.

[00:15:51]My father was an engineer. My uncles all worked in different sections of the government.

[00:15:59]I'm the first in my family who worked in the private sector.

[00:16:05]And recently a friend uh came home. A friend of the family came home. He was a joint secretary in the central government in an important role and he said something to me. He said this. He said my father he says my son don't doesn't want to sit for the IAS exam. I'm telling him that that's the best thing for him. But he says to me, "Dad, look at you. You work 12 to 14 hours a day.

[00:16:49]You keep the department afloat. You keep the country moving.

[00:16:59]And look at your neighbor. He's in the same patch as you are and he spends two to three hours a day working and the rest of the day politicking.

[00:17:12]Both of you will get promoted on the same day because of the seniority system in the government.

[00:17:22]But he may well land a more important promotion, a prize job because of his networking.

[00:17:34]Well, you can imagine that I felt sick hearing this and um story but I offer this these thoughts to you as a preliminary not because I don't respect you. I respect you. I think lot of you do I'm sure work very hard and you produce very good results but there is obviously room for improvement.

[00:18:14]Now coming back to the difficulty of being good. It's it interrogates as I said the mahabharat and mabharat began as a war epic but it ended as an anti-war epic.

[00:18:37]As you may remember everybody died in the end.

[00:18:44]A few pandas were left and frankly what began Mahabharat went through three phases over 4 500 years. The first rendition of the Mahabharat was in 400 BC around just after the Buddha and it was called Ja. It was a shakya epic was a epic to give joers to fight.

[00:19:29]It was only 8,000 verses. The second rendition of Mahabharat took place around 200 BC just at the end of the Morian Empire and it was called Bharata and it's now it got expanded to about 20,000 verses and here Krishna who had been a friend of the Pandavas is already a minor deity uh a kul deva is vasu deva and then another two 300 years later comes the mahabharat and the mahabharat is now 100,000 verses now it includes the gita so there's a version of influence in it but also Buddhist influence especially in the character of the ma of yudishta who says at the end of the war.

[00:20:33]This victory feels like defeat.

[00:20:38]And now the Pandavas have to rule over an almost an empty kingdom, a kingdom of widows.

[00:20:48]And at the end when they rule for 30 35 years is going to heaven. He's walking to heaven and on the way a dog gets attached to him in the bazar as he's going up to heaven and they walk both of them together and when they reach the gates of heaven uh Indra the god of heaven comes out and he says says, "Welcome, great king."

[00:21:35]And he says, "We've been waiting for this moment to welcome you."

[00:21:42]And Yudishister looks at the dog and he says, "Can he come in?"

[00:21:50]And Indra says, "No, no dogs allowed in heaven." And Yudhisha thinks what kind of a place is this heaven and this god of heaven who doesn't understand that this poor dog has no one to we are not on the earth we're up there somewhere and who will look after him when I'm not there and so yisha says no I'm not coming in now I don't know how many people >> [laughter] >> How many people you know would do something like this?

[00:22:31]But this is what you was like and and that's why they say that he his ultimate message oftra ultimately is about act of goodness. The act of goodness to a dog and that's the word in Sanskrit is you all know himself which is of course key word also but anisha means compassion to an act of goodness to help somebody else to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and so sometimes for you distinguished officers and staff.

[00:23:23]You might think that the person who's come to ask you put yourself the shoes of that person, that person needs help.

[00:23:35]And think of Yudisha who was even worried about a dog uh who's supposed to be unclean.

[00:23:44]Anyway, I've read some of the questions that were asked to me uh and one of the questions [snorts] was probably about the most original thought in the Gita which I said is in the Mahabharat and that is in terms of action.

[00:24:09]We've all heard of it but it's not that easy to practice and that's the notion of nisham karma that Krishna teaches to Arjuna that you act for the sake of the action and not for the personal reward. You know this is sometimes translated that you act the action rather than for the consequence of the action. No, we all have to care about the consequence of the action. I mean if you're sitting down to take an exam, you want to pass the exam, right? So it's not the consequence. If you get too if you get too obsessed with the consequences of your personal reward. Oh, if I get past this exam, maybe I will get this promotion etc etc. That is what will distract you. And that's what Krishna means in this famous karachala. So it is one of the most original ideas I think in the Gita and the Mahabharat and it is also a theme u that we can discuss as we go along.

[00:25:30]Now let me check our time. Yes, I I've spoken to you for six minutes and now it's time what I will do. I think the instead of giving you general talks about general ideas about the Mahabharat, I'd like to tell you a story and it's a true story of a person when I was running Proctor and Gamble in Bombay.

[00:26:00]This young man came to work as a night guard.

[00:26:08]He came to work uh from 6:00 in the morning, 6:00 in the evening to 6:00 in the morning. That was his shift. He came from Akola.

[00:26:24]He was a villager. He didn't know any English. This was his first visit to Bombay and he was excited like a child.

[00:26:35]Everything he saw was something like a child. You know, he saw the coffee making machine the first day and then he wanted to see how it worked and he fiddled around with it and then he started serving trial coffee to others. So it's like a you know like a kid if it's when it's raining all the adults go around.

[00:27:06]There's a puddle on the street and adults go around avoiding the puddle. Put making sure their clothes don't get wet.

[00:27:18]What does a child do? He jumps into the puddle. And why? Because he wants to know what it feels like.

[00:27:27]Anyway, that's was his that was this guy named Kamlay. Kamlay uh was as I said a realhati even he could not pronounce the name of the company. Our company was Proctor and Gamble. He used to say Proctor and Gambé you know for our company. But there was something very special about him. the in a in a few days he discovered the TX machine. Now he wanted to send a TX message but he didn't know any English. So he goes in the next day and finds an English-speaking little shop where they teach English and while others in the night shift are sleeping and this guy is learning English and within four five months he actually uh learns enough English to send start to start sending trial tex messages on on the TX machine.

[00:28:37]So, but the quality about him that I think everybody noticed was that he had a a manner which was basically helpful. anybody asked him something.

[00:29:03]So he'll go and find out who you're looking for and and and and one day somebody in the office collapsed. He must have had some medical uh problem.

[00:29:21]And you know it was amazing uh Kam who was from the Colola district but he took charge and he by then he knew the numbers on the telephone switchboard etc. He called the doctor. He he uh put a pillow behind the person and he really just took charge. And then he went to the chemist shop to bring the medicine. And the fellow revived and then he tells everybody please don't tell anybody that I was the person who was helping out now. So he was a selfie facing. He didn't want he he didn't care who got the credits. That was the quality. And that's why I think he was a bit of a nishkam karmi that he did the action because it was his duty to do it. He felt >> in the same way. A few months later, one of the officers lost his dropped his wallet uh near the man's toilet and Kamlay found it on his rounds uh uh as a as a security guard and he came to me and he said, "Sir, there's a lot of money in this wallet and um this man must be missing this money.

[00:31:01]His ID card was there. So he says look this is the person he was a senior officer in the company. He lived in Bandra and his address was there and Kami said told me now you be the security guard for 1 hour. I'll take a taxi give me 20 rupees to go and come back and I will deliver this wallet to this person.

[00:31:28]And so that's what he did. And it so happened that that officer he arrived just in time because that officer had taken out the money from his bank that afternoon to pay the down payment. It was in lacks of rupees for a for a flat that he was buying in Bandra in Bombay. and his wife and the man they were when they realized I mean they were so grateful to Kamlay and but Kamlay told them not to tell anybody and he came back and he said now I'll take over the duties of night guard from you and and also told me not to talk about it so I'm just coming out of a cold. You'll have to excuse both.

[00:32:37]A few months later, our telephone operator in the daytime, she was she was going on maternity leave. She was having a baby. And so Kamlay went to the head of personnel and he said to him, "Look, I'm tired of working at night. Give me a chance to be your temporary telephone operator and uh I'll when she comes back to the job, I'll go back to my night shift."

[00:33:12]And uh the personnel had said kamlay look we are a multinational company operating in 135 countries we get phone calls from all around the world and you don't know English and how will you answer the switchboard and calmly understood and with a long face he went away but I heard about this from the grape wine And so I went to the personnel guy and I said, "Uh, give him a chance. Uh, if let's try him out for a couple of days.

[00:33:54]He's been studying English and let's see in meantime have a backup ready if in case doesn't make it." So Klay then was it's I found him sitting in the booth of the telephone operator in those days you know those telephone operators things and that very afternoon I got a phone call from our lawyer who is Mr. Sha of Prophet Bali and he says to me, "Garan, have you got a new EPBX system?" I said, "No." He said, "Well, you know, in the past when I called your office, my phone was always answered on the fourth, the fifth, or the sixth ring. But today, I called your office several times in the morning and it was immediately answered.

[00:34:53]in the second ring.

[00:34:56]So then I told myself this newbak system must be Kamlay. And so at lunchtime, I mean in the evening when I'm going home, I stopped at Kamlay's uh telephone booth and I asked Kam, why do you answer the phone so quickly?

[00:35:18]And he gave me the best answer in the world.

[00:35:22]Not even our marketing director or finance director would have given such an answer. He said sir there may be a customer calling for an order. You lose an order to your competition.

[00:35:39]I said that's right. He camlay had understood that his salary was paid not by the company but by the customers of the company and he knew how why the com company existed and here was a man who was metric past no MBA we only had English- speakaking MBAs and all these multinational managers And this fellow had understood the heart of the business.

[00:36:19]Anyway, the the story has a good ending because company immediately saw that this guy was very special and so we gave him the opportunity to go and work in different parts of the company.

[00:36:39]We gave him he took formal lessons in English also and any other courses he wanted. But he didn't need any courses. He didn't want any courses because he had something every department that he worked in suddenly he infected them with his spirit. the spirit of working for the love of the work working. In other words, I think Kambble would have paid us money to come to work if you ask me. He loved his work so much and he that helpful attitude everybody in the department learned something that if you are helpful to others they will be helpful to you.

[00:37:32]So the overall as soon as he entered a new department, the overall standard of performance in that department improved.

[00:37:43]Anyway, enough said about him. But he kept getting promoted and promoted until he ended up as a director of the company. Now here's a man from a village, metric pass, no knowledge of English.

[00:38:02]This is how he could rise in a company because of the sheer quality of his personality.

[00:38:12]And ultimately what the lesson why he is a kind of hero of mine is that the lesson is that what matters in at work is not credentials. MBA or whatever. It is not even your uh your sort of skills that you have.

[00:38:44]It's not even your intelligence.

[00:38:47]It's ultimately your attitude.

[00:38:49]The highest the best leaders have that attitude.

[00:38:56]They have that attitude that Klay had.

[00:39:00]curiosity.

[00:39:02]They have a sense of they love their work. You know, I've always believed the secret of happiness is to love the work you do and to love the person you live with. One line definition of happiness. Now that's um that's what Kamlay I think represented as a kind of model.

[00:39:29]And so [clears throat] this sort of attitude basic he had a basic bias the helpful attitude a bias for service to others a bias for action. It was not words. He was a man of few words and he ultimately what he taught me was that execution is more [clears throat] important than even strategy. Everybody can have a strategy. Every company can have a strategy. But companies that execute that strategy are the ones who are winners.

[00:40:11]And so I think this applies also to government. if you're working in the government and to EPFO that maybe your incentive system may not be exactly the same but nevertheless the things that Klay did in his career ultimately he was rewarded he was rewarded and you don't have to end up as a director he was rewarded every day every day when he walked home from the office.

[00:40:48]And so I want to leave this thought for those of you who are in HRD or in personnel department. One thing you can learn from Kamlay is that when you recruit people or in the UPSC when they recruit people you know they ask questions about what you know that doesn't matter what you know. Check the attitude of the person.

[00:41:20]Is he a kamlay?

[00:41:22]Is she a kambé?

[00:41:24]That's what matters.

[00:41:27]And and and so I would say recruit for attitude.

[00:41:32]If you want to bring somebody in your department, look for attitude when you bring somebody in your department.

[00:41:41]So that's really the the bottom line of my of my of my talk and and and uh frankly I would just say now why don't we open up to questions utam uh I promised about 15 20 minutes for questions and I think we have I have given given them the 15 20 minutes that you wanted.

[00:42:15]>> Thank you so much sir for that deeply stirring address and for giving this evening both insight and grace. You began by saying you what you had heard about EPFO words like unresponsive, corrupt, non-helpful.

[00:42:32]Frankly speaking, they may string as you rightly said but I feel they must be seen in perspective. Sometimes the mirror that hurts a little is the one that helps us grow. And your story of Klay will stay with us. The man who showed that it isn't about intelligence but attitude that makes the difference.

[00:42:54]His curiosity, his love for the work he did and the people he served. That was his secret of happiness which you have coined it so well. And I'm truly uh blessed by the thought that a bias for action, a bias for service is greatness in itself. And execution matters more than strategy. That also will stay with us. Thank you sir for reminding us that while rules guide our actions, it is conscience and the love of honest work that gives them the meaning. So uh as you said sir we would like to go for the questions and I will begin with the first few ones. Uh some of them have been updated right now but still I'll try sir and uh I promise to the audience that this part won't be as difficult as being good. So this is uh Mr. Romesh Na he comes from Kochi and he says a very profound question who really decides or who really gets to decide what it means to be good and in the same vein uh Mr. Dr. Sanjiv Singh from Bili says how can ethical reasoning help public servants stay anchored when decisions are complex ambiguous and under pressure sir >> okay who first is who decides what is good >> right sir >> well you know that's what I like about our Hinduism that we don't have a god who gives us ten commandments because reality is that every situation is different and it's not easy um uh to decide this but it is ultimately the individual who's faced with this. What a discussion like this can help is to improve our moral compass inside us. And um most of us have an idea there are certain things and all religions talk about the same thing that hurting others a himsa is a is hurting others is not good.

[00:45:26]uh telling the truth is a good thing satya and and and and so on but the situations are complex I'll give you an example uh and sometimes our moral uh duties conflict uh some years ago in fact when I was writing the difficulty of being There was a report in the Times of India about a child who was drowning on a beach in Goa and a young man jumped in and saved the child. So the reporter from Times of India goes to this man and he says, she says to him, "You're a hero.

[00:46:20]Why did you do it?"

[00:46:23]And the boy sheepishly it confesses to her that you know uh he says we are a college party from Hindu college in Delhi and frankly I was trying to impress a girl in our group and that's why I jumped in. So this uh the the the the reporter says, "But then you're not a hero." But I said, "She's wrong. The child was saved."

[00:46:58]The heroic deed was done. Why does it matter if he's trying to impress his girlfriend?

[00:47:05]So in the same way you know a lot of people say oh this chap Lalit Modi he the one who created IPL now he's he was a bit of a crook and he made some money and then he skipped the country and ran away and people say oh my god what a crook and what I say is balance what he achieved after all look at the fact that 1 billion people's hearts get such joy watching cricket for two months in a year and meet their heroes. It has created so many cricketing heroes from our country. Made our country from last to the first in the world. And so there are many the the even the franchises have made money. The advertisers do well, BCCI does well, everybody does well. And so in a public situation the when you judging a person in public life there you have to apply raj dharma. Raj dharma means what you do should be benefiting the people.

[00:48:25]Doesn't matter what your motives are.

[00:48:28]You should benefit the people. That is public action.

[00:48:33]That's how we judge a public deed.

[00:48:36]Now there's a sim another story in the Mahabharat. Rishi Koshak you know he's supposed to be a very great man who has never told a lie and everybody in the town knows it. He sits in the town square and he sees a young man run past and he [snorts] knows what's happening because seven six seven people are running after him and he knows that those six seven people have they're crooks.

[00:49:13]They have committed a crime and they he has seen the crime. is a witness who is running away.

[00:49:22]And so they ask him and that man is they catch him they kill him and then Rishi son Rishi Koshak ends up in hell and he asks the hellkeeper why am I in hell I was such an honest man and the hellkeeper tells him that day you were supposed your duty was to save the life of that man and not to tell the truth.

[00:49:54]So therefore that's why they say Bishma says in the Mahabharat that dharma is sukshma dharma is subtle so we have to discuss it. So this is a long answer to your question uh from coin I think you from Kerala Mr. Na I think is your name.

[00:50:18]Now the other question frankly is the question that I've been trying to answer that in all these problems of the day.

[00:50:31]Ultimately look we are born one day we die another day.

[00:50:38]We don't know when we'll be born when we'll die. In between we have a little time and whether you are a prime minister of the country or whether you are a person who walks on the road carrying somebody's luggage.

[00:50:57]You have to decide what you want to be remembered for.

[00:51:03]People will people forget prime ministers.

[00:51:07]People have short memories.

[00:51:10]Each person at the end gives his own account, leaves his own account. So you whether you are in the middle of a lot of complicated discussions and all that but if you have the right sense of doing the right thing if somebody comes to you to help then it's your responsibility to help that person my of course I I sympathize with you in EPF Therefore, your rules are so complicated and so wrong in many cases that ultimately I think the reform I'm glad EPFO has had some reforms and they are good reforms but you should be aiming your reforms at the next stage should aim to take out discretion completely from your lives and make life easy.

[00:52:20]Today technology allows income tax to be faceless assessment. You know, since faceless assessment came in income tax, I have not had my me or my CA, he has not seen the face of an income tax officer for the last seven years. And before that, there was always somebody with his hand out to to get you.

[00:52:47]So that is where frankly auto claim settlement should be the mantra. Online settlement minimum discretion rules should be clear and open. The money belongs to the salary of the person. The person has the first right to decide what to do with that money. That's what I like about the reforms also. Now ultimately the reform in Aadha in EPFO should be based on the port a lifetime Aadhaar linked portability of social security account when you change your job whether you're working in MSME or in a big company or even as a gig worker you should to be able to carry that portability, carry that account with you from one place to the next. The beauty is that technology now allows us to do it. Use technology, use AI. It has it has everything. When I get into a problem, I use AI. I use chat GPT. And she gives me a very good answer enough to make my life easy.

[00:54:14]And so I also feel that there should be a customs you know in our company we had the most important thing we did was we did a customer satisfaction data we collected and this is now again very easy if everything is online you can easily say like WhatsApp tell us good bad poor Simple press this the customer can do that. So important thing trust the customer and it is her money and she should choose whether she wants NPS or EPFO and don't say we are there to protect her from herself. That's wrong moral logic.

[00:55:12]So looking at India at 100 2047 we ultimately the job of the country we will we are one of the fastest growing economies in India but we have not created the jobs that the fastest growing economy should have created.

[00:55:34]That is because we have been let down by manufacturing. We have not created an industrial revolution. Our exports of manufactured goods are less than 2% of world export. We have to fix that.

[00:55:50]That will be the route to prosperity.

[00:55:53]Okay. Long answer. Uh sorry.

[00:55:57]>> No problem. Thank you. Thank you so much, sir. Uh the next question is from uh one of our central board of trustees members a respected figure sir Mr. Ashish Vij he says uh in fact he picks up from the book of one of our previous RGD speakers Mr. Anil Swarup in the ethical dilemmas of civil servant. He says he writes as the ethical challenges lies in the gray area between legal and illegal between yes and no where both choices seem in uh seems uh defensible.

[00:56:34]Right or wrong often depends on personal values. But the real test is whether one's conscience is at peace. So this is what Mr. Swarup writes. But his question is how does one build that moral inner compass that guides ethical choices amid amidst the moral gray Jones. And the second question something similar to this which you just spoke about technology and improvement of thought processes uh in EPFO. A quick question which has come just now is they say that sir uh in the last financial year there were around 18 uh 18 million yeah if I'm reading it correctly 18 million yeah 18 million 1.8 million sorry 1.8 8 million grievances of out of which 98% will resolve within time. The 2% we couldn't resolve and they are they are the ones who are giving impressions the other way around. How do we manage this?

[00:57:43]Okay, you got look the you got two very different questions. I the first question I applaud what the questioner has said. I think the questioner has answered his own question very well because the fact is that human beings are flawed and there is a gray area between the legal and the right thing to do and the important thing is to really go by one's gut instinct you know I mean obviously I'm not asking you to break the law. We must do things illegally. That's why I think I'm so glad that you had Sanjie Sal because he's doing the kind of reforms, the process reforms that EPF also could benefit from. And so I think you should make Sanjay Syal your friend and give him a case studies of things that processes that can be improved in EPFO.

[00:58:52]And I would just say ultimately sometimes the law is also bad is wrong and uh and and and and I won't we don't have the time the luxury of time for me to give you another story but the the if you ask me my moral compass was created by my grandmother you know she used to tell me stories from the mahabharat and and uh and and and that's where I got a sense of right and wrong and what is good about the mahabharat is that it's about us human beings meaning that the characters in the mahabharat they the good guys do bad things and the bad guys do good things >> you know that's what human beings are and you know I mean unlike the Ramayan where everybody is perfect hero is perfect wife of the hero is perfect even the villain Rahuna is perfect so Mahabharat is the right place to uh improve your moral compass if you will and and and and and uh it is really through these interactions stories that we improve our moral compass as we think about it. Life is gray. Life is gray and uh there's no quick answer. The more you think about these things, the better.

[01:00:40]But I would go by my gut instinct when I'm faced with the kind of dilemmas that you are talking about.

[01:00:50]Okay. Now the second question by now I had forgotten that was about what was that?

[01:00:56]>> Uh it was about saying sir that last financial year we had around 1.7 million grievances.

[01:01:03]>> Oh yeah only 2%.

[01:01:05]>> Yeah only 2%.

[01:01:07]>> Yeah but you know people remember the 2% unfortunately the newspapers report the 2%. they don't report the 98%.

[01:01:19]Unfortunately, so I myself I was very surprised that I got this negative feedback because uh it wasn't 2% it was much higher than my but mine was a very small sample of maybe a dozen people. All I can say is that you know just remember Kamlay and and and and and your work itself will be more pleasurable if you think that if you're if you're helpful if you're helpful you'll find people will be helpful to you. That's what I have found. You smile at the world, the world smiles back at you. It's in your own interest.

[01:02:20]Thank you so much. Uh there is I'll just take two to three minutes more sir because I'm tempted to take these questions from the officers who have taken so much of time. Uh one question the sense of it I'm putting sir. This is from Akshai walk from Hubli, Sjit from Telangana, Suguna from Maduray and innocent Prasad from Kochi. They say uh sometimes following the rule feels wrong and helping someone means bending head.

[01:02:51]What is the right balance between being fair to people and faithful to procedure?

[01:02:56]>> Yeah. Well, you know, this is a very very it's a variant on what we were discussing earlier that I'm I'm sorry to say, but rules, especially bureaucratic rules, unfortunately, are often wrong.

[01:03:18]>> They're based on distrust.

[01:03:21]And our civil service is a colonial civil service. We have never reformed the civil service.

[01:03:29]That civil service was of the British who distrusted us as Indians. And one of the first things you know it's ironical that UK has reformed its civil service after Margaret Thatcher when she did the economic reforms she also did the administrative the governance reforms.

[01:03:52]Dang Xiaoing in China, he reformed the civil service when he was doing his economic reform. He changed the incentive system.

[01:04:04]How many jobs you create, how many production you have in your district, those were the incentives that was given for promotion. So I think all of you should clamor for a change in processes change in these these things. Yes, you [snorts] are you are put in a impossible position whether you must break a rule to help somebody that is wrong.

[01:04:40]But if you treat your gut ser gut instinct right and you note down that look I'm bending the rule because I believe the person just say that I may be wrong I'm ready to be punished for that but I believe that person and this rule is stupid say that >> thank you thank you so much sir sorry were you saying something sir No, I'm I'm done. I'm afraid I've not given you more time for asking questions because my answers >> turned out to be longer >> than uh than we had expected.

[01:05:21]>> Much appreciated, sir. But again, forgive me. This is the last question.

[01:05:25]Uh this is from one Mr. Kamla Bell from Aual. He says, "How can officers develop the ability to see human side of every decision? Is there a character from Mahabharata that can guide us in this area in making ethical choices?

[01:05:46]>> Every character from the Mahabharat has [snorts] something to teach teach you.

[01:05:53]What uh Karan Karna teaches you is that Your mother is not the one who gives birth to you but the one who brings you up.

[01:06:09]Remember when count went to Karan and said now you switch sides because you you are a panda and you don't know it. And she tells him the story of how he was born and she put him in a basket and he floated down the river and he was picked up by a charioteer, a suta and you grew up as a sutra.

[01:06:36]You are the eldest. You'll be the king.

[01:06:39]You'll be the emperor. And he doesn't switch sides.

[01:06:43]Now that is one lesson from karna that a sense of of loyalty to who brings you up, not just gives you birth.

[01:07:01]Then uh Dropi, my God, she is the power behind the war. The whole war takes place because she's driving the war. Now a woman who has that the guts to take on the might of the estate uh and push the pondas in that direction. Yudisha who says I act because I must an imp of of of doing the right thing. I act because I'm past.

[01:07:43]So every character um similarly that there are many dilemmas right through and you don't have to read the whole big mharat in fact in the beginning of my book I have a summary of the central story [clears throat] which I then illustrate onwards in the difficulty of being good but there are many a bridged versions and they are full of these uh it's it's a good lesson for anyone to have to take.

[01:08:24]Thank you so much sir.

[01:08:26]Uh the last line which I can um take uh this evening is goodness is not easy but the struggle to be good is what makes life meaningful.

[01:08:38]And with this thought, let me thank the audience who has been here all the round and able to make the best possible in the limited time we had with you sir. It was a truly enriching session and most satisfying.

[01:08:56]I wish may all return to our Kuruchetra tomorrow hopefully a little wiser and maybe a even little better. Thank you so much sir. I thank director of the national academy. I thank our central provident and commissioner Mr. Krishna Morti. I thank everybody in my team who has made this possible including Mr. Manish Nayer who has been at your place and has been so kind to help me felicitate you sir. Thank you so much.

[01:09:25]Have a great evening and thank you audience. See you again next month.

[01:09:30]>> Thank you.

[01:09:31]>> Thank you sir.

[01:09:31]>> Thank you.

[01:09:34]>> Thank you. Thank you.

[01:09:38]Thank you.