What St. Ignatius HID in His Letter to the Romans

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]When St. Ignatius of Antioch writes to the church in Rome around the year 107, something strange happens. He doesn't name the bishop. He doesn't name a single preser. He doesn't name a single deacon. And for Protestants like Gavin Nortland and Jerry Walls, that silence is basically the smoking gun. Their argument goes like this. If Rome had a monarchical bishop in the early 2nd century if there were a pope in essence then surely Ignatius of all people would have mentioned him. He mentions bishops in every other letter. He tells the Ephesians, the magnesians, the trillions to obey their bishop by name. But to the Romans nothing. And so the argument goes the papacy is a later invention. It wasn't there at the beginning. Here's what I want to show you in this video.

[00:00:46]That silence is not what Gavin and Jerry think it is. Okay? In fact, when you actually read the letter to the Romans very carefully, when you look at what Ignatius actually says, how he says it in the situation he's writing it in, that silence becomes one of the strongest pieces of evidence for the papacy in the entire early Christian corpus. To work through this with me, I've brought on two of the sharpest minds that I know on this material. Dr. Steven Boyce, a petristic scholar and Cesar Bernstein, Catholic scholar with a graduate degree in philosophy, who's been publishing peer-reviewed papers on Ignatius. Now, before we get into the discussion, here is St. Ignatius's letter to the Romans read out in full.

[00:01:27]The letter of Ignatius to the Romans.

[00:01:30]Ignatius, the image bearer to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father most high and Jesus Christ, his only son, the church beloved and enlightened through the will of the one who willed all things that exist in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success. Yes. Worthy of sanctification and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, son of the father, to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color.

[00:02:24]Hardiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God.

[00:02:31]One, since by praying to God I have succeeded in seeing your godly faces so that I have received more than I asked.

[00:02:39]For I hope to greet you in chains for Christ Jesus if it is his will for me to be reckoned worthy to reach the goal.

[00:02:47]For the beginning is auspicious provided that I attain the grace to receive my fate without interference. For I am afraid of your love in that it may do me wrong. For it is easy for you to do what you want, but it is difficult for me to reach God unless you spare me too. For I do not want you to please people, but to please God, as you are in fact doing, for I will never again have an opportunity such as this to reach God.

[00:03:15]Nor can you, if you remain silent, be credited with a greater accomplishment.

[00:03:19]For if you remain silent and leave me alone, I will be a word of God. But if you love my flesh, then I will again be a mere voice. Grant me nothing more than to be poured out as an offering to God while there is still an altar ready, so that in love you may form a chorus and sing to the Father in Jesus Christ.

[00:03:40]Because God has judged the bishop from Syria, worthy to be found in the west, having summoned him from the east. It is good to be setting from the world to God in order that I may rise to him.

[00:03:56]Three, you have never envied anyone. You taught others. And my wish is that those instructions that you issue when teaching disciples will remain in force.

[00:04:06]Just pray that I will have strength both outwardly and inwardly so that I may not just talk about it, but want to do it so that I may not merely be called a Christian, but actually prove to be one.

[00:04:19]For if I prove to be one, I can also be called one, and then I will be faithful when I am no longer visible to the world. Nothing that is visible is good.

[00:04:29]For our God, Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.

[00:04:34]The work is not a matter of persuasive rhetoric. Rather, Christianity is greatest when it is hated by the world.

[00:04:42]Four. I am writing to all the churches and am insisting to everyone that I die for God of my own free will unless you hinder me. I implore you, do not be unseasonably kind to me. Let me be food for the wild beasts through whom I can reach God. I am God's wheat and I am being ground by the teeth of the wild beasts so that I may prove to be pure bread. Better yet, coax the wild beasts so that they may become my tomb and leave nothing of my body behind, lest I become a burden to anyone once I have fallen asleep. Then I will truly be a disciple of Jesus Christ when the world will no longer see my body. Pray to the Lord on my behalf so that through these instruments I may prove to be a sacrifice to God. I do not give you orders like Peter and Paul. They were apostles. I am a convict. They were free. But I am even now still a slave.

[00:05:38]But if I suffer, I will be a freed man of Jesus Christ and will rise up free in him. In the meantime, as a prisoner, I am learning to desire nothing. Five.

[00:05:50]From Syria all the way to Rome, I am fighting with the wild beasts on land and sea by night and day, chained amidst 10 leopards, that is a company of soldiers who only get worse when they are well treated. Yet because of their mistreatment, I'm becoming more of a disciple. Nevertheless, I'm not thereby justified. May I have the pleasure of the wild beasts that have been prepared for me, and I pray that they prove to be prompt with me. I will even coax them to devour me quickly, not as they have done with some whom they were too timid to touch. And if when I am willing and ready they are not, I will force them.

[00:06:29]Bear with me. I know what is best for me. Now at last I beginning to be a disciple. May nothing visible or invisible envy me so that I may reach Jesus Christ. Fire and cross and battles with wild beasts, mutilation, mangling, wretching of bones, the hacking of limbs, the crushing of my whole body, cruel tortures of the devil. Let these come upon me. Only let me reach Jesus Christ. Six. Neither the ends of the earth nor the kingdoms of this age are any use to me. It is better for me to die for Jesus Christ than to rule over the ends of the earth. Him I seek who died on our behalf. Him I long for who rose again for our sake. The pains of birth are upon me.

[00:07:19]Bear with me, brothers and sisters. Do not keep me from living. Do not desire my death. Do not give the world one who wants to belong to God or tempt him with material things. Let me receive the pure light. For when I arrive, there I will be a human being. Allow me to be an imitator of the suffering of my God. If anyone has him within, let that person understand what I long for and sympathize with me, knowing what constrains me. Seven. The ruler of this age wants to take me captive and corrupt my godly intentions. Therefore, none of you who are present must help me.

[00:07:56]Instead, take my side, that is God's. Do not talk about Jesus Christ while you desire the world. Do not let envy dwell among you. And if upon my arrival I myself should appeal to you, do not be persuaded by me. Believe instead these things that I am writing to you. For though I am still alive, I am passionately in love with death as I write to you. My passionate love has been crucified. And there is no fire of material longing within me, but only water living and speaking in me, saying within me, come to the father. I take no pleasure in corruptible food or the pleasures of this life. I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Christ, who is the seed of David, and for drink I want his blood, which is incorruptible love. Eight. I no longer want to live according to human standards. And such will be the case if you so desire. Do so desire so that you may also be desired.

[00:08:57]With these brief lines, I am making my requests of you. Do believe me. And Jesus Christ, the unairring mouth by whom the father has spoken truly will make it clear to you that I am speaking truly. Pray for me that I may reach the goal. I write to you not according to human perspective but in accordance with the mind of God. If I suffer, you will have wanted it. If I am rejected, you will have hated me. Nine. Remember in your prayers the church in Syria which has God for its shepherd in my place.

[00:09:32]Jesus Christ alone will be its bishop as will your love. But I myself am ashamed to be counted among them. For I am not worthy since I am the very last of them and in untimely birth. But I have been granted the mercy to be someone if I reach God. My spirit greets you as does the love of the churches that welcomed me in the name of Jesus Christ rather than as a mere transient. For even churches that did not lie in my way, that is my physical route, went before me from city to city. 10 I write these things to you from Smyrna through the Ephesians who are most worthy of blessing. With me along with many others is Crocus, a name very dear to me.

[00:10:17]Regarding those who preceded me from Syria to Rome to the glory of God, I believe you have information. Let them know that I am near for they are all worthy of God and of you and it is quite proper for you to refresh them in every respect. I am writing these things to you on the ninth day before the cleanse of September. Farewell until the end in the patient endurance of Jesus Christ.

[00:10:43]Okay, now you've heard the letter. Let's get into it. To work through this with me, I've brought on two scholars whose work on the early church is exactly what you'd want for a letter just like this one. Dr. Dr. Steven Boyce holds a PhD in canon and textual studies and his dissertation was a textual analysis of CEX H. The manuscript that preserves some of our earliest Petristic readings of the Septuagent and the New Testament.

[00:11:06]So when we get into what Ignatius is actually quoting and how he's quoting it, Steven is our guy. Cesar Bernstein is a Catholic scholar with degrees in philosophy from Florida State and Oxford and a law degree from George Washington.

[00:11:20]He's published peer-reviewed work in philosophy. But more recently, he's turned to church history and he has published an essay specifically on Ignatius and the Bishop of Rome and Evangelical Quarterly with another piece forthcoming there on whether Clement was the bishop of Rome. So this letter is quite literally his wheelhouse. And here's something you should absolutely know about both of them. Steven and Cesar are converts to Catholicism. And in both cases, the letter of Ignatius were a major part of why they're not approaching this material as outsiders trying to score points. They're approaching it as men who read these letters carefully were unsettled by what they found and eventually had to follow the evidence where it led. And I think you'll see that in this conversation.

[00:12:01]So, here's where we're going to take you in this video. First, we're going to talk about the salutation, the beginning of the letter, because Ignatius opens his letter to the to the church of the Romans unlike any of his other letters.

[00:12:12]And the language he uses for the Roman church is going to matter quite a bit.

[00:12:16]Secondly, we're going to dig deep into this silence, okay? Why doesn't Ignatius name the bishop? We'll lay out the protective anonymity argument. We'll show you what Eman Duffy actually says about this. and we'll show you why that silence cuts in the opposite direction from what Gavin and Jerry argue. Third, we're going to discuss Ignatius's desire for martyrdom. This letter is unlike anything else in his corpus. At points, it almost reads like a man begging not to be rescued. We'll talk about why and what that means for us personally. And then finally, we'll get into my favorite line in the entire letter. Christianity is greatest when it is hated by the world. And what Ignatius is really telling us there. All right, let's jump in. Oh, wow. I am so excited to sit down with both Stephen Boyce and Cesar Bernstein, who is actually a personal friend of mine, to discuss what might be the most important letter in the Accorpus from Ignatius that we have from him. And man, let's just kick things off because the the opening of this letter is absolutely remarkable. And you know, I haven't read all of his letters yet.

[00:13:26]We're still working through them. But he doesn't speak like this about the other churches. And I'll just remind you if you've like already forgotten from when we've read the letter, he says, "Ignatius, the image bearer to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the father most high and Jesus Christ his only son." That like just starting off the church that has found mercy in the majest. Like it's already just sounding so flowery. the church beloved and enlightened through the will of the one who willed all things that exist. And then he just goes on the worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, son of the father, to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color. And Cesar, you pointed out to me that what this this phrase here filtered clear of every alien color basically means that there's no heresy that they he's even got to correct here. So maybe we can kick things off with two topics. One of the the first topic and feel free any either of you guys can can jump in on this. The first topic is just the fact that he has such a high view o of the church in Rome. And then the second topic is how different this letter is from the other letters. Right? This is as I was reading through this, it was such a different like the the focus is on martyrdom. And that's that's basically like the whole focus of the letter save for maybe the salutation that just the beginning of this letter. Um but yeah, either either of you guys may let's maybe pick up on that first part of of just how high his view was of the church of Rome.

[00:15:22]Yeah, there's a stark contrast for viewers who have been following this series. Um, Ignatius repeatedly exhorts um the Christians in the other churches to obey the bishop. And part of the reason for that is that Ignatius is very anxious about the spread of heresy in the other churches. Um, we can plausibly infer that there were troubles in his own church at Antioch. Um, and throughout Asia Minor. Um there were heresies springing up but immediately in the opening to the uh letter to the Romans, Ignatius says it's clear of any alien color. So already we have I think a key distinction which is that in Ignatius's mind, the problems that um the problems with which the other churches were dealing and that Ignatius was trying to combat are not problems that obtained in the Roman church. And um and then to your other point obviously um the key phrase in the salutation I think is that Ignatius says that the Roman church not only presides in the district of the place of the Romans but also presides in love. Um and I know Stephen you have some thoughts about that as well in the Greek. Yeah, it's it's an interesting word because he only uses it three times. Two is in this letter. one we've already covered and and talked about with the Magnesians.

[00:16:50]The idea of presiding is first in rank or to hold first place. He uses this word only for bishops. And the idea of that is in Magnesian 6:1, the bishop presides in the place of God. It's the only other time he uses the word and he uses it twice here. One of which they reside over the region of the Romans.

[00:17:12]And then the second is how they do it more in a verb setting like they do it in love like the way they preside is in love. So regionally they preside and then the act in which they do it is in love which shows up later in the letter and Cer can come back and kind of complement this too because one of the concerns is that when he dies there is no successor set up in Antioch at this point. Now we know later in history there there becomes a successor in Antioch but his concern is that they will not have a bishop other than Jesus Christ himself. We see this in chapter 9 and their love that's the same love that was presiding over the regions of the Romans which shows that the jurisdiction of Roman presiding was not just locationally in the city of Rome. This church must have had a wider jurisdiction that went even to Antioch.

[00:18:04]Caesar why don't you speak to that?

[00:18:06]Yeah, it may be good to just um read it again. He says, "Remember in your prayers the church in Syria which has God for its shepherd in my place."

[00:18:17]Remember Ignatius has been expelled and is on his way to Rome to suffer martyrdom. So they no longer have a bishop. Jesus Christ alone will be its bishop as will your love. Your meaning the Roman church. the church of Rome on earth is going to as it were bishop the church at Antioch as well as Jesus Christ in heaven. So already we see that in the salutation he says the uh church of Rome presides in love and then in chapter 9 he says that the love of the Roman church is going to be or or is going to bishop the church at Antioch the church in Syria. So, um, you know, Cameron, you haven't yet, um, read to your audience, um, First Clement. Um, I think you should as part of this series, when you get to it, what you'll see is that the Roman church, um, probably about 10 years earlier, most scholars think 10 years earlier, may maybe earlier, um, than that, um, was commanding and exhorting the Corinthian church, another church that, um, is is foreign relative to Rome. And, uh, not only does it command it, it commands it by saying that um, God is speaking through the church of Rome.

[00:19:34]Um so it sort of fits hand and glove like a puzzle. You have Ignatius saying that the Roman church presides in love that its love will bishop a foreign church or other sources say that the church of Rome purported to command a foreign church all around the same time period.

[00:19:52]>> Yeah, this is important Cameron. I I want to tag into this because there is accusations that there is no bishop in Rome at this point. Uh we've heard circulated rumor statements going on that well the bishop prick began in the east and it eventually made it to the west and I just want to I just kind of want to debunk this idea that there is bishoping going on but it's kind of an anonymous way of doing this because people say well there must be no bishop it doesn't name one. Well there's two problems with that. Number one he already stated that if there is no bishop there's no church. He told the trilians that so there has to be one.

[00:20:28]Number two, we know that from this letter, it is going to the same place where he is going to be executed.

[00:20:35]And by giving the names of the leaders in the church in this letter which is being written under chain to send that letter to the very city where he's going to be executed in the coliseum would actually put those people in jeopardy.

[00:20:50]He doesn't even name a deacon or a presbbiter much less. So are we saying that there's no presbye and deacons in the city either? He doesn't list any of them. I believe it's intentional of him to leave all of these people anonymous because this is protective anonymity here. He's protecting these people in the city. And we also know and Cer and I were talking about this earlier. We also know that the bishop of Rome around that time was also killed around the same within a year of this. So the heat on the Christian communities in Rome is clearly at a very high climax. And for him to just put the name of the bishop and its presbyeeers and its deacons in here would have been very foolish of him to do that given the letters going to the very city of execution. It would have put a lot of people at risk. I I found something in the uh the chapter 10 that seems to go along with this and it's uh verse two regarding those who preceded me from Syria to Rome to the glory of God. He says I believe you have information. That to me is just like obvious like obviously what he's trying to do is protect these names.

[00:21:56]>> It's cryptic language, isn't it?

[00:21:58]>> Right. Ignatius knows these ambassadors.

[00:22:01]These people were sent from his home church at Antioch. Yep.

[00:22:05]>> Um to give advanced word to the church of Rome that the bishop of Antioch was on his way to be martyed. And so Ignatius probably knew who these people were. But here he doesn't name them. He just says, "I believe you have information and treat them well. Right.

[00:22:21]So, um why wouldn't he name them? Why didn't he name anyone? In all his other letters, he names people. He names bishops, presbytors, deacons, friends.

[00:22:30]Here he here we know that he knew people in the church of Rome and he doesn't name them. Now, maybe maybe the silence is just unremarkable and you know he there are there are reasons that we can't think of for why he didn't choose to name anyone. But um if we think that the silence was remarkable, then um it's very clear that the absence of a bishop can't explain all the silence because it wouldn't explain why he doesn't name preser, deacons, friends, or these ambassadors. Um so you have to have some other explanation um that accounts for this uh remarkable silence. And the obvious one consistent with this cryptic language that you identified is protective anonymity. He's going to Rome to be fed to the lions for being a Christian. Right? The Roman the Roman Christians are literally in the lion's den. It would be silly for him to just name the leader of this illegal sect um in a letter that is directed to Rome.

[00:23:36]and and protective anonymity explains why he doesn't name anybody at Rome. But um just going back it would be helpful um a lot of people like to quote um Aean Duffy. He wrote a history of the popes and here's what he says.

[00:23:50]>> He says >> his meaning Ignatius letter to the Roman church however says nothing whatever about bishops a strong indication that the office had not yet emerged at Rome.

[00:24:03]Let's see how that matches with what we find in the letters. So in chapter 2, he says, "God has judged the bishop from Syria worthy to be found in the west, having summoned him from the east." So it's false that he says nothing whatever about bishops because he identifies himself as the bishop of an entire region. And then we saw in chapter nine that he mentions the word bishop again when he says that Christ alone will be the bishop of Antioch and the Roman church's love. So twice Ignatius uses the word bishop in the sense that he uses it at least once in all the other letters. So he takes for granted that the church of Rome understands what he's talking about. That um he's that he he he he betrays no um uh uh awareness that they would regard his use of the word bishop as gibberish. Right? The Roman Christians clearly know what he means when he's using the word bishop. He identifies himself as the moniscopal bishop in Syria. Um so the inference is overwhelming that Rome is not exceptional in a way um of which Ignatius would have disapproved right they had a bishop he just didn't name the bishop because either as Steven pointed out maybe the bishop has been killed or else because he didn't want the Romans to kill the bishop by putting his name in the letter that was being sent to that city.

[00:25:44]>> Yeah.

[00:25:44]>> Yeah. When I was reading this and Stephen I'll I'll let you jump in just a second. And when I when I was reading through this letter, so like part of my story is that when I was discerning becoming Catholic, I reached out to friends of mine and I was like, "Hey, what do I do?" You know, do do I I've worked through my objections. Do I become Catholic? What's the next step? I reached out to two primary people. The first one was Mike Winger, who was a really good friend of mine at the time, and uh I still consider him a friend.

[00:26:15]and he and Gavin Orland, I was I was in talks with both of them. They both told me to look into the papacy and over the course of the next several months, I I had multiple phone calls with Gavin and I was asking him, you know, what cuz he was the one who pointed me in the direction of the papacy. That's a big part of this. He pointed me in the direction of the papacy and said, you know, here's the here's the fact, okay, historically, there is no mention in these early letters for like uh first clement, um Ignatius to the Romans and the shepherd of Hermas and um and the dedicay like he was like there's no mention of a of a bishop in these in these early times. And now that I'm like digging into this letter, it's like so obvious that there was like a a sense you can infer it on the basis of like multiple independent lines of evidence from his other letters. But then in this very letter, you can infer it as well as you guys have just pointed out. I I think that's absolutely right. And it's simply not true that we have no early letters that name a bishop of Rome because of course we have first Peter um who identifies himself as a presitter and who is writing from Babylon which was a code word for Rome. So he's a presitter writing from Rome. And what is a bishop? A bishop is a presitter who set apart set above the other prestors of a church. Who would doubt that Peter while in Rome as a presbitor was set above the other presitters as the chief presbbittor just like it James in Jerusalem was set above the presitters there as the chief presitter. So we have in first Peter it's it's it's it's right there and looking at us. It doesn't use the word bishop because um the word bishop uh came to uniquely pick out the chief presitter um in the next few decades. But um there clearly was a chief presitter of Rome. His name was Peter. And you can infer that from first Peter his own letter.

[00:28:17]>> Yeah. And and he challenges these others as he calls himself a fellow shepherd.

[00:28:22]He uses the language of bishop. A bishop is a shepherd that he's shephering his people. So he uses that language as Caesar's talking about. And I I do want to point out something that's said here in the text because it is this very text that put me down a different path because when I was studying this, I was in a Baptist seminary and this is actually the letter that put me over toward what later became Anglicanism and then I ended up moving into Catholicism.

[00:28:49]But it started the path for me away from Protestantism because I wrestled with the Ignatian letters for about 2 years before I finally started saying, you know what, this is quite obvious to what the early church had and what I'm existing in. So the opposite is actually true of some of these people that you went to, Cameron, because if if somebody like me was not looking to leave where I was, I was completely content where I was. It was more of a burden to leave the position I was in. The the church plants I was involved in, the pastoring I had done, the contacts I had made in my 20s. I was about to throw them all away over what I was studying. And I didn't have any friends. I didn't know a single person except for Jonathan Sheffield in the Anglican world. My wife and I attended an Anglican mass for the first time. And we didn't know a single person in that entire 300 person church.

[00:29:46]We didn't know anybody. We started in blind all because we were following the footsteps of these letters believing it was taking us towards Bishop Rick and that we needed Bishop Rick in our life.

[00:29:56]Of course, it didn't end in in the Anglican communion. Thank God it ended in a better Bishop Rick, but it was a start for us and we did it in faith trusting that what we were studying and reading was actually true of the churches from the beginning. Now, I do want to point something else out here because we kind of talked about this and you mentioned it earlier about the stain or this foreign uh alien to it that they were purged from every one of these stains. It's interesting that the word there being filled with God's grace is actually a perfect passive participle.

[00:30:31]And what that means is when you're looking at the tense, it's going to matter because it's a completed action that still has ramifications that outgo from that are outpouring from that. So this idea of being filled with God's grace, they were given something that purges them from the stain of foreign whatever it is dosatism whatever heresies were arising. Many heresies arose in the second century in Rome.

[00:30:55]Many of them especially later comes Marcianism. So when you're talking about this church, the idea of this being filled with God's grace is actually a completed action. It's something that happened. But what happened at that moment of being given this grace is going to have ongoing effects from that action. So God did something in Rome. He did an action in Rome that happened and from what happened in that Rome in that city of Rome, there's going to be a continuation of that grace from it. I believe and we believe that's going back to Matthew 16. We believe that goes back to this is the Sea of Peter. And there was a special grace that was given to that sea to protect it from ever having the gates of hell prevail. I think that's what's going on here. I think that's what he's getting at in the language. It it's all it's all right there. I mean, it pretty much is all in Matthew 16. you have um and and granted all everything I'm about to say is a controversial interpretation of each parts of it. But um I don't think anyone can say that these aren't at least plausible glosses on it because you could um identify scholars on who are not Catholic who um find that they're plausible. But Peter is the rock on which the church um will be founded. He uniquely has the keys to the kingdom of heaven because no one else is expressly given the keys. The keys are not given in Matthew 18. And the keys are plausibly an idiom um about having stewardship over the kingdom.

[00:32:38]Isaiah 22.

[00:32:40]Um so if that's right then the rock on which the church is built namely rock um will be as it were the prime minister of the church um in anticipation of the return of the king just as the steward of Gondor sits um at uh ministerth in anticipation of the return of the king and this same steward has the power to bind and loose but not just the power and authority to bind and loose but bind and loose heaven and you can't bind heaven to error. So whatever he binds he has to bind correctly which is a kind of infallibility.

[00:33:20]And so the Petrine office at least um has the seeds of the papacy and it implies succession because Jesus hasn't returned yet. So if Christ establishes this office in anticipation of his return, the office of steward and he hasn't returned um before Peter's death, then we can infer that there is succession. And then we go um immediately after the New Testament to see whether the data confirm this interpretation. And already in the first century, in the first letter of Clement, as I said before, you have the church of Rome who um uh is governed according to the second century sources by Clement, Clement of Rome, the third bishop of Rome, writing a letter to a foreign church commanding them and saying that this letter is being sent by is being written by us, but God himself is speaking through us um when we issue this command.

[00:34:24]Yeah, that's >> that's infallibility. That is an exercise of not only infallibility, not sorry, that's an assertion of infallibility because God can't be wrong. And there's an extr territorial application >> um of the jurisdiction of the church of Rome to the church of Corinth. And we know Dionius of Corinth held that letter in great honor because he speaks later to the bishop of Rome how he has received his letter along with Clement's letter letter and they are reading those two letters in Corenth in their mass every single week. So they obviously believe whatever Clement of Rome wrote to them in around 96 in my opinion. This is the end of the second century when Dionius of Corinth is saying this. This is almost a hundred years later. They're still reading that letter as authoritative in their church along with the present bishop of Rome who also wrote to the same church reading his letter with it. So whatever came from Rome they held in high esteem and is authoritative with lurggical readings. I will also say this. You brought up an excellent point, Caesar. This continuity of believing that the church in Rome would remain purged of every stain of foreign heresy outlived the lifetime of Peter and Paul because he references and insinuates their deaths in this letter. He talks about how he wouldn't command them like Peter and Paul. Now, we know earlier Clement had already established that they were both martyed in Rome. So if that's the case, that means the promise of Matthew 16 in the mind of Ignatius was not meant to expire only on Peter himself. That it would outlive his own lifetime and sit per permanently in the sea of Peter, not just the person Peter.

[00:36:15]Because I've heard some people say, I can go along with Peter. Maybe that promise was for him, but when he died, that was just something unique for his lifetime. That's not the way Ignatius thinks this went in any way, shape, or form. He would interpret this to have exceeded the lifetime of Peter. It >> it also again makes no sense of our data. What has happened at Corenth?

[00:36:35]>> The Christians there have deposed their presitters. There's a council of presitters. They have been deposed.

[00:36:41]>> So, we're to imagine that the church of Rome has a council of presitters. And a council without a bishop that's connected to the apo the apostles commands the church of Corinth to restore their presitters and they just fold. They listen to a foreign council of presitters when they wouldn't listen to their local council of presitters. It makes no sense. What does make sense is that in the second century all our sources who speak to the issue say that the letter is associated with Clement of Rome. the same person who is assoc who is identified in the New Testament. Um uh and the same person uh who some of our sources say Peter ordained at Rome.

[00:37:24]>> If you get a letter who's written by someone of that description, you might pay attention even if you were unwilling to pay attention to a council of presitters uh in your own church. But the idea that a foreign council of presitters um would uh succeed in restoring church order um in a church that had had just deposed theirs. um does not even approach the um plausibility of the obvious alternative explanation which is the ones which is the one that our second century sources give which is that a prominent apostolic preser has commanded them uh to restore um the the people who were appointed by the apostles or by people who succeeded them. Um and just um two two two things.

[00:38:12]Um I think Ignatius probably references First Clement because in the third chapter he says, "You have never envied anyone. You taught others and my wish is that those instructions that you issue when teaching disciples will remain in force." So Rome already has a reputation of which Ignatius is aware of instructing foreign churches.

[00:38:39]And of course our evidence supports that because we have at least one letter in which Rome does exactly that. Um and as you pointed out Stephen he also says I do not give you orders like Peter and Paul. Um what's interesting about that I mentioned first Peter uh in which Peter identifies himself as a presitter and says that he's writing from Rome. Well this clearly um suggests that Peter was commanding ordering the church of Rome.

[00:39:09]So the idea that there was no first bishop of Rome is very implausible because bishop because uh Peter was um at Rome as a presitter giving them instructions sounds like a chief presbittor to me.

[00:39:23]One one question I wanted to put to both of you is back to the salutation.

[00:39:31]You know, the the fact that there's no heresy that he has to address that he has to deal with at the church of Rome, shouldn't we be asking the deeper question like why is that the case? Why is it the case that at the church of Rome there just happens to be no heresy that needs to be addressed? Whereas along the way in every single other of these letters, he's having to address this. He's having to address that and say, "Listen to your bishop. Listen to your bishop. Please listen to your bishop." Yet here, we don't see that.

[00:40:04]Doesn't that say something about the the I mean, it just screams to me, you know, Catholicism like like there there's there's a reason why there was no heresy that was springing up. What is that reason?

[00:40:19]>> Maybe we can discuss that. I think that goes back to what I was saying a minute ago about the filled with God's grace and purged being a a perfect passive participle. It's it's something that's been done. There's something that happened. There was a special grace that was given to this church that would not allow for sin or heresy to prevail against it. Not that not that heresy wouldn't come into the city. We know that there was a lot of heresy that arose in the Roman providence or that even sin would come in. There were evil popes. Uh when you look at it from that particular framework, Christ's promises that the gates of hell would not prevail. Not that hell wouldn't fight. There was in fact one of the greatest places, one of the biggest brewing ports of heresy in the middle to late 2 century comes out of Rome. I felt so bad. If you look at Bishop Soder uh the bishop of Rome at that time or you look at some of these other bishops of Rome, some of the pious the first pas he had multiple heretics in the city of Rome in the same year. It's incredible how many heretics would leave different parts of Europe or different parts of North Africa, come into Rome and set up their, if you would, their jurisdictional heresies right there in Mother City. So these next few years after Ignatius, the the wild beast of heresy really attacks the city of Rome hardcore. So much so that you even see other bishops, other leaders like Irenaeus of Leones or Tertullian in North Africa writing works like against Marcian, against heresies.

[00:42:06]Why? What are most of these jurisdictional heresies coming from?

[00:42:09]They tell us they tell us how many of them were coming from the city of Rome.

[00:42:14]So the question is not going to be does Rome ever have to deal with failure of bad popes or bad leaders who maybe sin or heresies that attack the church and people within the church fall into these heretical thinking. It's a matter of prevailing. Most of those heresies that arose in the middle of the second century and the end of the uh second century most of those heresies don't exist today. That church in Rome still does. All three of us are a part of that church. Right. Right. Something to think about.

[00:42:45]>> Yeah. The filtered clear like maybe maybe that's a better way to to phrase the question is like how was it like what was in place to be able to filter out the heresy such that he could say this that there was no heresy actually there. You know it was filtered out.

[00:43:03]I think probably one one explanation is that um very early on again Peter and Paul were martyed in Rome um and before they died they probably ordained people Clement being one of them. Clement uh died at around the turn of the second century. So at least up to that point um anyone coming to Rome teaching um false doctrine would have um stood as it were in front of someone who was appointed by an apostle. Imagine being contradicted by someone of that description, right? Um and trying to get a following if that were to happen. But as these men start to die, it becomes um easier to uh you know uh contradict the um the leaders that are present um uh as you get farther away from the apostles. And that's what we see. Um, for Ignatius, one of the guards against the spread of heresy, of course, is the presence of a strong monopiscal government. You have a strong bishop and you're to obey the bishop. And, um, if you have that constitution, um, you're more likely to resist these alien colors, as it were. M well um if Ignatius took that view that a bishop is necessary to um prevent the spread of false doctrine, then that's evidence that the Roman church had a bishop.

[00:44:52]Because if it didn't have a bishop and it was clear of uh all heresy, there would have been a glaring counter example to Ignatius's theory that you need a strong bishop to guard against and prevent the spread of heresy. So why is the Roman church clear of every alien color? Well, not only did it have a bishop, but it had a bishop who was in direct succession from the apostles. Not only the apostles, but the most prominent apostles.

[00:45:21]>> The rock. The rock.

[00:45:23]>> Um, so let's uh let's transition now and discuss. So we we've talked about bishops uh in Rome for a while. Let's now discuss the fact that what what sort of separates this letter from the other letters. Um, Stephen, you were sort of like you and I had a conversation maybe a week ago at this point and you were like, "Yeah, um, you have to be almost almost careful as you're reading this letter because it it almost seems like he it's it's almost like a a suicidal letter, you know, to to to not sugarcoat it because he's just over and over and over emphasizing that his desire to be martyed, you know, for Christ and to like this is when he will be a true disciple and he this is like his goal obviously in this letter. Um let's let's talk about that. Why why is it so apparent in this letter that he he just wants to overemphasize this over and over and over?

[00:46:24]>> Yeah. He really feels like the church is about to defend him when he gets there.

[00:46:28]I don't know if they had some sort of legal setup that he believed they were going to have in place trying to petition for his release and whatever he thought was awaiting him in Rome in his favor to be released by the church pleading for his his life, he told them to call off the dogs.

[00:46:48]Uh literally call them off. Um he wanted to go into that coliseum and die. I mean, he even has language of if the animals are not hungry when I'm thrown into there, I'll make sure that they're ignited and angry and hungry and they'll eat me.

[00:47:03]>> Um, he goes so far as to say he doesn't want to leave any scraps of his body. He says that in chapter 4. He doesn't want any part of his body to remain. He wants that to be his tomb. He wants to fall asleep and not be a burden to anybody else or any of these churches because he believes that he is going to be given as a sacrifice and that he is going to die in the same manner of like say Peter and Paul. He is going to die in the same way that Christ gave himself.

[00:47:33]He believes in order for him to reach the full call of his saintthood, this blood must be shed. And so anything less than his martyrdom was not going to obtain his call. And so if they were trying to get him out of martyrdom, then they were actually preventing him from what he believed God called him to be.

[00:47:58]Um he he also believed that if he died, he was going to be emancipated.

[00:48:04]um he believed that his connection to Jesus being in his actual presence, you could argue the botific vision here would bring full unification with him.

[00:48:14]And then he also believed in what seems to be what some would call the resurrection. He said, "I would ar I will rise again to freedom." And so he wants to be convicted as a Christian. He doesn't want to just be known as a Christian. Or he gets there and they say, "Well, it seems like he claims to be a Christian." He was concerned that he would go stand before trial before a pagan king and that their verdict would be there's no evidence for him to have lived like a Christian. He was very concerned about that. He wanted the evidence of conviction that you are by your actions by your words and by your deeds you are a Christian and therefore you are guilty of death. If he did not hear those words, his life would have had seen itself in a state of emptiness in vain because he believed that it wasn't enough just to be called a Christian, but to be found out to be one. And so, he was more interested in being convicted. So, most of us would in a situation like that of high anxiety, we'd probably be trying to find every loophole to still be associated with Christianity, but also getting ourselves out of the situation. He's like, "Nope.

[00:49:24]If I'm not convicted as being found guilty by association and practice, a Christian, then I have failed.

[00:49:31]>> He was very concerned about that.

[00:49:33]>> That is so good. Um, let me let me touch on this really really quickly because it's it it made me think as I was reading this letter just just how much he desired martyrdom. Let me let me read this line really quickly in chapter five and it's it's so flowery. Fire and cross and battles with wild beasts, mutilation, mangling, wretching of bones, the hacking of limbs, the crushing of my whole body, cruel tortures of the devil. Let these come upon me. Key line only let me reach Jesus Christ. So the takeaway in this passage for me is like what is it going to take for you to reach Jesus Christ? Right? in in Ignatius's mind like martyrdom is that is is what's going to help him reach Jesus Christ. But then the question is for for you, what is it going to take to to to get you there? Right? We all have our own struggles. We all have the things that we deal with. Uh but but are you willing to make that sacrifice for Jesus?

[00:50:43]And that's that's what that's what was really sticking out to me in this in this passage. It's like what what is the takeaway for us? Most of us are not going to be in a situation of martyrdom, >> you know, living as we as we do now.

[00:50:56]>> But what how can we apply this to our lives? Well, um you know, if you really want to reach Jesus, you got to sacrifice. And it has to be like real.

[00:51:06]You know, it it can't be like this fake little thing that you >> I'm I'm going to give up sugar on Fridays. No, you need to do something radical to reach Jesus Christ. And and I think that's so I'm I'm sort of speaking to myself here, but yeah, feel free to share any thoughts on that.

[00:51:25]>> I think what Ignatius is doing in part here is teaching and encouraging because this was a time where Christians were harried and persecuted by the secular authorities and they were probably discriminated against in society at large. And so what Ignatius is doing, he knows that as the bishop of Antioch, other Christians are looking at him as an example. And it might, the easier path might be to yield, to say with your mouth that um you deny Christ. Um say one thing and think another.

[00:52:02]Um but what Ignatius is doing is he's setting an example. He's saying, "Not only am I going to run finish the race as a Christian, but I'm going to make it to Rome happy that I will soon be with my Lord." He's literally bearing his cross.

[00:52:18]>> Yeah, >> I think it's one other thing. Let me see if I can find it. There was there was another line in here. Um Stephen, maybe maybe come back there. Well, I I'll just say the line. So, there's there's a line in here. I can't remember which chapter.

[00:52:30]Maybe you guys will be able to recall it really quickly where he seems to express some doubt about like if he's actually going to have this predisposition when he gets there in front of the wild beasts and he's like hey if I you know this is what I really want but if I come there later and start to request different things don't listen to me this is what I truly want and I thought that was just you know we we all have I think this internal struggle of like what What are our real desires? What do we really want? And I think we all know that like we the we we do truly desire to be united with Christ, but then we have these other desires that get in the way.

[00:53:14]>> Yeah.

[00:53:14]>> You know, he says and and it even happened with Ignatius like St. Ignatius himself struggled with this, I think.

[00:53:22]And he knew he knew that so well about himself that he put this in this letter for these Romans to like get them to help him achieve what he truly ultimately desired. Well, he says expressly, "My passionate love has been crucified and there is no there is no fire of material longing within me but only water living and speaking in me saying within me come to the father." So what he's saying is that yes, he has those passionate um desires and uh uh ju just as any other man, but he has crucified them and he's on his way um to glory.

[00:54:01]>> Yeah. And that's a great point. I love that line there because the idea of the literal wording there is the living waters in me which comes from John's gospel and specifically that's referring back to his baptism. In fact, if you go to the dedicay, the dedicay talks about these living waters is the very location you go to be baptized. And his baptism is that indelible mark. That's what it is. It's an indelible mark. And it is constantly saying these words, come to the father.

[00:54:32]So that when we're our baptism is our guard. It it is our shield. Because when the world pulls us away, what is there to pull us back? It's the indelible mark of our baptism that shows us that we have been washed from this. I love what he says prior to that, gentlemen. He says, "Do not talk Jesus Christ and set your heart on the world." That's something we all can learn from. Maybe we're not going to be thrown into a den of lions and and leopards and all these other things, but he says, "Do not talk Jesus Christ with your mouth." And then set your heart on the world. So if our mouth is right, but our heart is wrong, we've actually allowed ourselves to to live a double life. We're living a lie.

[00:55:20]But it those of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus, the living waters are roaming within our soul, constantly pointing us back to come to the father. Come to the father. And then he and then he takes us into a second sacrament. The next lines he doesn't take delight in corruptible food, the dainty things of this life. He says, "What I want is God's bread." And then just in case we weren't sure what that was, he says, "Which is the flesh of Christ who came from David's line, for I drink his blood, an immortal love feast indeed." So he he's realizing that what pulls me away from my passions, what pulls away the envy in my heart and my desire that I need to crucify, it's the call of my baptism. You've been washed from this. Don't go back to it.

[00:56:18]What is the preventative that continues to move me away from those passions? It's Christ's passion.

[00:56:26]>> It's his body and blood that was given.

[00:56:29]it it may be good to just read um three different texts side by side. So this is um uh this is John John uh 6:27.

[00:56:41]Do not work for the food that perishes but for the food that endures to eternal life which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal. And then a little bit later in the same chapter, Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God, the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives you life to the world." And then what does Ignatius say in the seventh chapter? He says, "I take no pleasure in corruptible food or the pleasures of this life. I want the bread of God which is the flesh of Christ who is of the seed of David and for drink I want his blood which is incorruptible love. And then in the first letter which he read Cameron you'll remember in the 20th chapter he says that the Eucharist the bread the bread of God is the medicine of immortality.

[00:57:41]The antidote we take in order not to die but to live forever in Jesus Christ.

[00:57:48]So you have real presence and you have the exact theology that is being taught in the gospel of John and the tradition has it of course that Ignatius knew John and was friends with Polycarp who was probably appointed by John. So, these are all men who knew and spoke with each other and were taught by the apostles.

[00:58:11]And um you know, it's it's just very difficult to read these lines and not come away with at least a real presence view about um the Eucharist.

[00:58:23]>> Yeah. Especially with that in the baptism, too. He's he's clearly giving his exegetical understanding of what he's been taught from John 4, John 6, John 7, and what Caesar just let the living waters comes from John 4 and John 7:38. And so when you're talking about this, what we have, gentlemen, is one of our earliest interpreters of John's gospel. And it's not just a random guy.

[00:58:46]It's someone who was with the man. It was somebody who was trained by that man. So if there's ever a question, this is this is the whole thing like, well, we this is what I think John 6 means or this is what I think John 4 means. We have these big battles between like, oh, that's the Catholic interpretation.

[00:59:04]Well, that's a Protestant interpretation. This is the part that it didn't matter to me when I was trying to figure out the truth. I was a Baptist studying these texts and these words and I had to reckon in my own mind this thought. It's not about a Catholic or an Anglican or or a Lutheran or a Baptist coming to these passages. This is somebody who is with the Apostle John himself who use this language. He is telling us what he thought John meant by that because he probably learned not only its sayings but its interpretations from John himself. And he clearly believed John 6, whoever doesn't eat my flesh, drink my blood, was talking about a real presence, body and blood in the Eucharist. When he talked about living waters coming out, he clearly believed that was regenerational baptismal waters. That's clearly what he believed.

[01:00:01]So we have our earliest interpreter, Cameron and and Caesar. We have our earliest interpreter and our earliest exedute of John 4, John 6 and John 7 from a man who is actually with the apostle John himself. And I think it's easy to forget the circumstances um in which Ignatius found himself. He is being guarded by 10 leopards as he calls them which soldiers Roman soldiers on his way to being fed to literal leopards in the coliseum at Rome.

[01:00:36]And he's writing these letters. He does not have the gospels right next to him.

[01:00:41]He's not copying. He doesn't have the time to do that. This is all from memory written in a hurry.

[01:00:48]It was seared into his mind John 6 and these other parts of the gospel because he like lived and bre and breathed this theology and he's repeating it and interpreting it.

[01:01:02]>> That's on his way to death.

[01:01:04]>> That is a great point because we see this and this was part of my dissertational work was taking the citations of the New and Old Testament from the Codeex um in Jerusalem Codex H.

[01:01:15]And when getting to Ignatius, I noticed that most of his citations were indirect or partial as opposed to Clement of Rome who had a lot of direct citations. Word for word clearly had copies of Job, Psalms, Isaiah. He had those copies and probably Matthew's gospel. Here very sloppily does he actually quote the New Testament. In this letter alone, he's quoting John. He's quoting Romans 1. He quotes 1 Corinthians 4, 1 Corinthians 9, 1 Thessalonians 2, but he doesn't do it very clean. He mostly goes for the interpretation of the text more than the citation of the text, which demonstrates that these bishops were very aware of the apostolic deposit. Not just the apostolic deposit of the text, but its meaning. What did the apostles mean? How does that look in my life? How does that look in the life of the church? This is the issue with soloscriptor. This is the issue with the scripture of alone.

[01:02:14]Without a proper interpreter, if the scripture is removed, the church is left with nothing. If its deposit and its understanding, its meaning and its authorities have its truth within the heart and the mind and the deposit that was given to them by the laying on of hands that goes beyond the papyrie.

[01:02:32]Then the church can still sustain itself and exist. Here's a man making major declarations. theologically and practically for this church without a physical copy of scripture. However, he has the deposit not only of its text but of its interpretation. And he's able to put both those things to practice and sustain the church in Antioch and in Rome and all these other churches he's writing on his way to his martyrdom.

[01:02:59]That is the true and fullness of the Christian faith.

[01:03:03]The other thing um he says somewhere in here um uh somewhere in the letters to the Romans that although he didn't stop at all these churches on his way to Rome um they came to him so revered was he as a bishop a shepherd a teacher that they risk themselves to go see him one last time and to refresh so that he might refresh them >> before he dies.

[01:03:32]Yeah.

[01:03:32]>> Yeah.

[01:03:34]>> So, there's one more line as we start to wrap up. There's one more line that I wanted to make sure to get to, which might be my favorite line that I've read in his letters so far, and it's in chapter 3.

[01:03:46]>> Christianity is greatest when it is hated by the world.

[01:03:50]>> Let's talk about that one.

[01:03:53]>> I mean, it it sort of speaks for itself.

[01:03:55]I mean we all know that now um because the culture um is more against uh Christianity um really the last century for the first time in a while Christians are experiencing a modicum of the uh of of what they experienced um in the first and second and and first few centuries of Christianity right the tables are turning um we've been we've gotten complacent but in Ignatius's time uh the world hated Christianity and um and so it it's a great reminder to us.

[01:04:34]>> It's just remarkable that he, you know, think about the time period in which this was going on, the vast amounts of persecution. And he's like, okay, we're like being so persecuted right now.

[01:04:46]Nevertheless, Christianity is greatest when it's most hated, when it's hated by the world. like how it's so counterintuitive to how we think things should work in the world where it's like if it's the best if it's the best thing the most powerful thing then it's going to and liked by everyone you know if I could just be liked by everyone then I would be great and it's like no um actually Christianity is greatest when it's the most hated >> why and why is that well once again I think he has John's gospel in his mind he's talking about John 15:18 When Jesus said, "If the world hates you, you need to understand it hated me first." The church is never more like Jesus than when it's hated by the world. Because Jesus was hated by the world. And Jesus said that in John 15 once again, he's he's got John in his mind. I'm telling you. And when you think about it from that perspective, gentlemen, the church historically now, I mean, he's looking at it from a very small window. The church is very young in his lifetime.

[01:05:48]We're looking 2,000 years later and we can see this historically that a persecuted church is a healthier church.

[01:05:56]It always has been. When the church is at its weakest and gets its most, as Caesar said, complacent is when luxury and freedom are given to the church to thrive within its own culture. Somehow someway it ends up collapsing on itself.

[01:06:11]But when the heat is on the church, this is what first Peter was talking about to begin with. these these Christians who are about to face excruciating persecution. He told them that this was fiery. James did the same thing to the dispersion, fiery trials of your faith.

[01:06:28]They kept talking about in that manner.

[01:06:29]Why is it? Because they were going to actually be burned alive. Well, some of them did. Polycarp's one of those. His friend, Ignatius's friend gets burned to the stake later.

[01:06:39]But it's more than that literal fire that they're talking about. It's that the trying of their faith was going to produce a fiery trial that melts away impurity.

[01:06:50]And see, the Romans had that more than anybody. They were experiencing this firsthand because I mean, obviously the this Caesar was there. I mean, they had the persecution. This is where Peter and Paul were both executed in that same city. Christians experienced the most severe of persecution in this very city up to that point.

[01:07:12]The persecuted church that you trace in history ends up being the most doctrally pure and practically and spiritually pure in its practices. It's interesting how that always works out. And then the church that's complacent in its freedom ends up becoming the most anemic and the weakest of the churches. But this goes back to Jesus. This is if the world hates you, hated me first. And so for him to say that is actually not a surprise because he's reminded of what John probably taught him personally from the Gospel of John and what Jesus had taught them. Maybe this this is one reason why the church of Rome was um protected from a lot of these um alien doctrines. They were in the lion's den. And uh yeah, Christianity is greatest when it's hated by the world.

[01:08:05]if that's if that's true, if if the emperor is your neighbor. Um, yeah, it's just I think it's it's a it's a good reminder to like, you know, this this is obviously true about he's he's saying something that's true about Christianity, the religion, but I think it's also should be true about Christians in particular, right?

[01:08:30]Like when are you at your greatest? Is it when you're liked by everyone or is it when you're actually like united with Christ and like that's why people are not really liking you that much? And so, um, hopefully that speaks to you, like if you're if you're wondering like, am I doing a good job at this whole Christian thing? Um, are you loved by everyone or are you sort of at odds with with some people?

[01:09:00]And I think, you know, Jesus literally says in his gospel, um I I forget which gospel it is, but you know, we're he like came to bring a sword. He's coming to bring division. And it's like that's that's a reality of of being a Christian. And if you're not doing that, maybe maybe something's wrong. If you're not causing people to like it's a strong word, but if you're not causing people to to hate you for being a Christian, I mean, maybe maybe you got to think uh maybe you got to rethink your strategy.

[01:09:34]Like what's what's going on?

[01:09:36]>> Yeah. And it's not >> I know that there there there's a lot of Christian I know I know in particular a lot of Christian philosophers who are like all about just getting everyone to like them and and that's just not I don't think that's it. I I don't think this is something that's going to be learned in a day either. You know, earlier in chapter 4, it's actually the end of chapter 4, he says something along the lines of, "I'm learning to forego my desires or wishes."

[01:10:02]It's something that has to be learned.

[01:10:04]It's not something that we're just going to we're going to have to go back to this over and over and over and over again. This is putting that crucifying ourselves like this is crucifying our passions as he refers to because that's clearly thinking of Paul when he says that. But he's saying, I'm having to learn to forego what I want.

[01:10:22]That's the lesson for all of us. It's not going to happen in a day. It's a continual practice.

[01:10:29]That's a good reminder. I I didn't want to imply that like you should start like being ugly to people so that they'll hate you. No, that's not that's not the point. The point is that the the the closer you get to Christ, the closer you start to emulate Christ, that's a natural outcome.

[01:10:47]of that disposition because that's what Jesus did. Jesus like people hated him for for being the son of God, you know, for for saying true things and people didn't like it. And so that's that's the point. Like the closer that you get to Christ, it's just a natural outcome.

[01:11:05]People just don't like it. And you know what we're told here though is that that's when we're at our greatest is when we're hated by the world.

[01:11:17]And it's just it's it's hard. Um, but at the same time, like I I I want to I want to live up to that. I I've talked about this before, like I've done a lot of work on the problem of evil, thinking through that problem.

[01:11:34]It's a it's a problem for Christians.

[01:11:36]Um, and the the the response to that problem that I think works the best is this sort of soulbuilding theodysy where it's it's like we endure the suffering so that we can build our character. And when you we exemplify these really great goods like courage and love and sacrifice, those great goods are what God had in mind in the first place.

[01:11:58]And um so so that's sort of what this is all about is is enduring and doing what we can to live like Christ. And when we do that um the the again the natural outcome is that is it's you you might upset some people.

[01:12:24]>> Yeah. It's it's inevitable. um uh if you're speaking the truth and the truth is uncomfortable as Christianity is. Um one one last thing that is worth mentioning um in these letters Ignatius is very clear that Jesus is God. Um and he's writing in the year 107. Right? So this is um very early evidence that the early Christians accepted that uh Jesus is God. Um so just another interesting nugget that you get out of Ignatius.

[01:13:00]>> Can you give me an example? Is there is there one in this letter?

[01:13:02]>> Um yeah. So in the salutation uh he says heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God. And then in uh chapter three >> Christ our God. Yeah.

[01:13:16]>> Yep. He says in chapter 3 uh verse three he says nothing that is visible is good for our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the father and I he might heatches yeah he may have other uh uh examples >> dude I'm just like such a I'm such a trinitarian that I don't even like I I don't even read that and like think that that's important >> well I think Ignatius is is plausibly the earliest example of at a minimum a prototrinitarian because he um he identifies the father, son, and holy spirit as uh divine, but he also says there's only one god. So, you know, >> those are the ingredients of the later creeds.

[01:14:05]>> So, before we completely wrap up, was there any other points or uh areas for discussion that you guys wanted to address before we close?

[01:14:19]Stephen, unless you had >> Yeah, sorry. I I didn't want to interrupt you. I was just going to say that what we have here also is an interesting because Ignatius kind of gives us a historic idea of how maybe some of the New Testament letters were distributed. Um, you have kind of like a postmaster here. You've got a guy that's running around and he's known to the church and he's known to Ignatius. And I've kind of thought about this before that in the New Testament when you talk about these uh letters being distributed to multiple locations, there was always a common person between the church and the writer because there were a lot of people impersonating letters. There was a lot of people that were impersonating Paul. He talks about that there was also people that were corrupting different letters associated with the apostles. So one of the ways to protect an authentic letter versus a say in an inauthentic letter later would be common factor between the actual person and the church. There's entrusted people. It's interesting that one of the only names that is mentioned is Crocus in this letter. He's somebody that's with him.

[01:15:25]But there are people within Smyrna and in Ephesus who are going before him and connecting these letters back and forth.

[01:15:33]But ultimately we're going to find that according to Polycarp, he was entrusted with these letters to make sure they were properly distributed. And so that there is a chain of custody. Like it's not just a free-for-all. You write a letter and just send it to a church and say, "Hey, you know, Bill, come over here. I want you to run this over to Ephesus for me or something." No, there was actually people within the church who were trusted by the church and the writer who served kind of as a postmaster as as a mailman who is going back and forth and that it was actually intentional and there was actually a chain of custody to get letters to the to the church and the church back to the actual person. And so they were very careful. The churches were very articulate with this. They're very careful and they entrusted very specific people that had reputations to both the writer and the recipient. So, this wasn't just like a free-for-all. That kind of gives us an idea of how the letters of the New Testament were distributed. By the way, Paul mentions people a lot in his letters at the very end. I'm sending soand so to you. That person he was sending was known to the church. And the church would send people to Paul and Paul would recognize you've sent this person to me. He's been a refreshment to me or you know he'll give a real positive statement. Putting the name of the postmaster or the the if you would the mailman that was going back and forth was actually a way of affirming the carrier of these letters.

[01:16:59]So we kind of get an idea of in the first century and the late sec into the early second century what it looked like for the churches to take authentic letters and protect them from getting people that were coming and saying, "Oh, I'm Paul or or I'm Clement." There was actually a very very welloiled articulated machine that was going on that protected the writer and the church.