Justin @Deconstruction_Zone and I talk to two Christians about God's morals

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]This is a clip of Justin and I on the show Dev Evangelicals. It's on the line.

[00:00:06]Um, we will be there probably every other Saturday night. Um, the link to the full video is uh in the comments.

[00:00:13]So, enjoy.

[00:00:14]>> It's all on us. That's the That's the case. That's the case.

[00:00:18]>> Justin, we should do a special event.

[00:00:20]I'll put my Christian hat on and then we'll have a debate.

[00:00:24]>> Absolutely. No way you would do worse than that goofy AI apologist. That guy was out of his CPU.

[00:00:35]All right. I believe Joshua from PA is next in line. Joshua is listed here as a theist. Uh, and says, "I believe we all need Christ." Well, Joshua, you're on Evangelicals with Sarah and Justin. How are you?

[00:00:49]>> I'm good. Thanks for having me on, Sarah and Justin. Uh, Justin, >> hi.

[00:00:53]>> Sure thing. What do you When you say that we all need Christ, what does that mean? Do you mean we all need to be Christians?

[00:01:03]>> So I guess what I mean is Christ claimed to be the son of God, right? He says, "I'm the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." And there has to be a level of faith >> in that. And I think we have to answer the big question. Like I noticed you guys have a the question is should we be Christians?

[00:01:26]And if you want to be if you want to find out Christianity, I think if you want to find out if Christianity is true, you have to put some level of faith in it.

[00:01:35]But I think the real question is >> who the creator is.

[00:01:41]>> Why are you assuming that >> the creator is but why are you assuming we've never done that?

[00:01:47]>> I'm not assuming. That's why I asked.

[00:01:50]>> Yeah, we were Christians for a long time before we be became atheists. So obviously we did >> you did what?

[00:01:58]>> We did everything you did as a Christian. So next point >> we looked into it. We researched.

[00:02:04]>> I ask you do you want to know who the creator is?

[00:02:07]>> Well yeah but that's a second question.

[00:02:08]I was responding to your first point. So obviously if there is a creator we would be interested in knowing that that creator existed and as such no evidence exists. So obviously we don't know of any creator. What evidence do you have that this creator exists?

[00:02:26]>> Well, I've met Jesus Christ personally, unlike all the other colleed to the Bible.

[00:02:32]>> So, wait, I'm sorry. You've seen him >> testimony.

[00:02:34]>> You've seen him physically with your >> He is He is spiritual. We don't we don't see him. There's a level of faith that happens, a transformation when someone becomes a born again uh Christian, which I know Justin knows his Bible because I've seen him um going through it and and knowing some lines. And the Bible can be very helpful, but I didn't read the Bible um before I had an encounter with Jesus Christ.

[00:02:56]>> Maybe you should.

[00:02:58]>> No, no, I've read the Bible now because I wanted to know more about God.

[00:03:03]>> Mhm.

[00:03:03]>> But I had an encounter with Jesus Christ because I believed that he was the son of God because someone believed >> and I was in a desperate situation in my life where I couldn't change you guys.

[00:03:13]Like I don't know if you guys have trouble in your lives where I just >> Okay. So you you believe every time I make a decision and then you had an encounter or you had an encounter which caused you >> did you believe first and then have an encounter or was it you had the encounter which caused you to believe?

[00:03:32]>> No, I had I had to believe first. I had to believe in order to have the encounter.

[00:03:36]>> Okay. So before you had your encounter, what convinced you that Jesus was real?

[00:03:43]>> There there is no convincing. You you just have to have a level of faith.

[00:03:46]>> Why did you have a level of faith?

[00:03:48]>> Convince you of God is real. Let me let me tell you this. Like >> no I you're going to answer my question first that this isn't a platform for you to share your testimony. So why did you have a level of faith in Jesus instead of any other religious figure?

[00:04:04]>> Desperation.

[00:04:06]that I mean if if it's desperation you could have had a level of faith in all the gods. Why did you pick this one?

[00:04:13]>> I could have >> because I heard about this one because someone told me.

[00:04:20]>> Okay. So, you had just heard of Jesus and you knew that he was real or decided that he was real.

[00:04:28]>> I didn't know he was real.

[00:04:29]>> Okay.

[00:04:30]>> No, I didn't know he was real. I had to believe first. I had to have faith that he was real and then call out to him, >> which is what I did. And then he encountered me.

[00:04:39]>> So in order for someone to prove that they're real, >> the proof is for them to reveal themselves to us. Correct.

[00:04:45]>> Oh, well, it seems like it's God's problem then.

[00:04:48]>> Yeah.

[00:04:50]>> But do you guys want to know God?

[00:04:53]>> Okay. Again, this is why this is why Justin said, "Why did you assume we hadn't?" So, you need to know.

[00:04:59]>> I'm not assuming it. I'm not stop.

[00:05:04]>> So, as Justin said, we were both Christians for almost 20 years a piece.

[00:05:10]And I can speak for myself when I started losing my faith. I did exactly what you were suggesting. I felt desperate. I cried out to God. I asked God to reveal himself. And I did not happen to have the same encounter you did. So what I am not going to tolerate is you saying that oh well you just need to ask or you just need to try um because we did.

[00:05:42]>> You believe that Jesus Christ was who he claimed to be?

[00:05:45]>> Yes.

[00:05:45]>> The son of God.

[00:05:47]>> Yes. And now we don't.

[00:05:54]>> I I don't know. I'm not really sure what else to to say. I mean, he says to believe in him and it worked for me.

[00:05:59]>> So what? It didn't work for us.

[00:06:02]>> So this is where I'm going to ask you to have a little bit of empathy. So >> for sure >> great that something worked for you.

[00:06:10]Humans are different. We have different circumstances and different experiences.

[00:06:14]And so your life is not a formula for everyone else to follow. If you are coming on this show because you want to evangelize, because you're hoping to convert people, the very first thing you need to do is to understand people. You are never going to get through to people by saying, "Here's my story. Here's what I did. This will work for you."

[00:06:38]>> So if you want people to listen to you, >> you need to listen to them first.

[00:06:46]>> Okay? That's why I asked you questions first.

[00:06:51]I asked you questions.

[00:06:53]>> Okay. So, just so you know.

[00:06:55]>> So, I'm trying to understand >> and then I shared some of my testimony so in hopes that you guys could understand.

[00:07:04]>> But we we know >> we have a real honest conversation. We can't get um upset with each other for >> for what for what each other have said.

[00:07:11]I mean, your testimony is a part of what's happened in your life and and I would like to know that.

[00:07:16]I'm not sure who you think is upset right now, but I do have a question which is when you met Jesus, in what form was it?

[00:07:24]>> Spiritual.

[00:07:25]>> What What does that mean?

[00:07:28]>> It means that it's not something that you can prove physically.

[00:07:34]So, I can't show you God exists. I can only share my testimony with you.

[00:07:37]>> You have to show me. I want you to describe it. What does it mean when you said you had a spiritual experience?

[00:07:44]Well, that's what I meant to say whenever whenever I said previously that if God is real, he has to reveal himself to you guys. I can't >> No, I'm asking you about your experience.

[00:07:54]>> I want you to describe your experience to us. What does it mean?

[00:07:58]>> So, you want to share my testimony with you?

[00:08:00]>> No, I want you to describe what it was like. What was it like to meet Jesus?

[00:08:06]Did you see Jesus?

[00:08:07]>> I can do that for you.

[00:08:08]>> Did he have physical characteristics?

[00:08:11]Could you hear his voice? What was it?

[00:08:16]>> So, there was a day, there was a night, um it was evening and I had heard about Jesus a few times and I was in a desperate place in my life and I was tired of making decisions because they kept failing me. My life just kept failing me no matter what I had done. I, you know, nothing was working out right.

[00:08:33]So, I decided, you know, I'm going to give this I'm going to give this God thing a chance. Even though he's never helped me before, I've never seen him.

[00:08:38]He doesn't appear in the sky. And so I think I think you've got the the wrong I apologize. This is on me. I think you got the wrong opinion of what I was asking you. I I'm not asking for your story. In fact, I'm going to put a notepad on the screen real quick to kind of keep track of what's happening here.

[00:08:54]Um I just need a couple of questions answered for me to understand what you're talking about. So the first question is, did you physically see Jesus like with your eyeballs?

[00:09:06]>> No.

[00:09:07]>> Okay, gotcha. So the answer is no. All right. Next question is going to be, did you hear uh Jesus um audibly?

[00:09:18]>> No.

[00:09:19]>> No, of course not. Uh the next question is going to be um h uh did you uh feel or uh touch oops touch anything um other than um what was already uh around you when Jesus came?

[00:09:42]>> Yes and no touching but feelings. Yes.

[00:09:47]>> Emotionally I think he means >> not emotional. Not emotional, my feeling with your senses, touch.

[00:09:52]>> Nothing physical, guys. Spirituality is not physical. If you're looking for God, you're not going to find him in the physical.

[00:09:58]>> So, just to be clear, how did you know that what you experienced was Jesus as opposed to a grief vision or opposed to a dream or opposed to a hallucination?

[00:10:12]>> Because he did everything that I could never do.

[00:10:15]>> Like what?

[00:10:16]>> Which was change.

[00:10:18]You actually can do that.

[00:10:19]>> Showed me how to love.

[00:10:20]>> Literally anyone can do that. That's not even hard.

[00:10:24]>> Sir, does he know Do you think he doesn't know about the placebo effect?

[00:10:27]>> I think it's very hard.

[00:10:29]>> I think it's very hard.

[00:10:31]>> You You are describing the after effects of your encounter and you're saying it had to be Jesus because it worked.

[00:10:40]Justin's asking you, how do you know the encounter was Jesus? What about this encounter made you sure it was Jesus?

[00:10:50]>> Because he continues to reward my faith.

[00:10:52]>> No, no, no. During the encounter, >> not I'm not talking about after the encounter. During the encounter. How did you know that was Jesus during the encounter?

[00:11:04]>> I can't describe it. How do you know water is good for you? You just know.

[00:11:08]>> Well, no. No. We have science that tells us. So this encounter that you had, this was like an emotional experience.

[00:11:16]>> No, people didn't have science before they drank water. They just knew that it was good. They knew.

[00:11:21]>> Sure.

[00:11:22]>> There's some things that you just know.

[00:11:25]>> So you had like an emotional experience.

[00:11:28]>> You could call you could call it emotional, but it was more spiritual because it's something that I've never felt or experienced ever in my life. And it transformed me in a way that I could never transform myself.

[00:11:40]How do you know you couldn't do it?

[00:11:42]Because I have a good friend who uh was going to a we'll call it a a partner seminary. It was a a seminary that was friendly with the seminary I went to.

[00:11:53]>> And he had real bad problem with alcoholism. And um I was curious when he dropped out of seminary why he would do such a thing. And he said he had uh some interest in Islam. He had some Islamic friends and he tried out Islam. And through the power of Islam, he was able to overcome alcoholism and he converted from Christianity to Islam.

[00:12:13]>> Why would we believe that >> that his experience >> uh was somehow not true but your experience is true?

[00:12:21]>> Because he overcame alcoholism. I'm talking about transformation, being born again, being made new.

[00:12:29]>> Well, being born again is a is an amorphous term that means nothing to me.

[00:12:33]So I'm I'm giving you a very specific example about something is terribly difficult to overcome. Uh getting over addiction is one of the most difficult things a human being will ever do. And this particular individual was at the end of his rope thinking he would never be able to do it and then through converting to Islam got the result that he thought was impossible. I'm just trying to figure out why your impossible result is somehow different than his impossible result.

[00:13:03]Does Islam teach that you can know God or does it teach you that you can get over alcoholism?

[00:13:08]>> Uh, both. And neither one of those are relevant.

[00:13:12]>> Well, it is relevant because you said he used Islam to help cuz we're not we're actually not he we're actually we're actually not debating the theology of Islam right now. What I'm helping you to understand is that this individual claims to have an experience that is adjacent to yours. meaning the God that he was praying to helped him to do essentially the impossible. He had an encounter just like yours. I'm trying to figure out where are the key differences.

[00:13:42]>> Well, I would It doesn't sound like he had an experience that was just like mine.

[00:13:47]>> Well, what's the difference?

[00:13:47]>> It sounds like he got over alcohol.

[00:13:49]>> What's the difference?

[00:13:51]>> And and maybe a spiritual being helped him do that. It's possible, but it doesn't.

[00:13:56]>> But what's the difference?

[00:13:59]Well, he he doesn't know God and I do.

[00:14:01]>> But but what's no how would you >> claim to know God? Did he claim >> he would say he would say you don't know God and he does know God. So we'll try this again. How can you demonstrate the difference rather than just giving me platitudes like I actually know God and he doesn't? Cuz I could do the same thing. I know God and and you don't.

[00:14:19]>> Demonstration would happen to have would have to happen through life, right? We would have to know each other in you or someone would have to witness the changes in that person, right?

[00:14:27]>> Well, the demonstration was that he Well, I did witness it. He was a friend of mine.

[00:14:33]>> So, he's transformed. He is unrecognizable from who he used to be.

[00:14:37]>> I didn't say he was unrecognizable. I said he did something that was previously impossible. Whether or not he was unrecognizable is not a like a word that you can actually properly define.

[00:14:46]What does it mean to be unrecognizable?

[00:14:48]Do any of your family or friends still know you exist? Because if they do, you didn't become unrecognizable.

[00:14:53]>> What do you mean physically, sir?

[00:14:54]Justin, I don't think being unrecognizable isn't a meaningful word in this discussion at all.

[00:15:03]I >> I think I think it is, Justin. I think I think it absolutely is.

[00:15:07]>> Change is very difficult. Like you first said it wasn't, but now you are.

[00:15:11]>> What does it mean to be unrecognizable?

[00:15:16]I don't I'm not sure if we can exactly define it but >> well you used it in which way did you become unrecognizable >> for the ways that everything in my life that I like I said that I couldn't previously do I was able specific the sin that I didn't know about before the evil that I do >> which one >> the evil the lying >> which sin oh lying human beings decide >> not to do those things. You need the power of the Holy Spirit to not lie.

[00:15:48]>> Yes, >> that's crazy stuff.

[00:15:50]>> You cannot lie on your own, Justin.

[00:15:52]>> Certainly, it's certainly not the case.

[00:15:53]And it's also true. In fact, I would bet on your own.

[00:15:57]>> I would bet money that since you've become a Christian, you've lied at least once, haven't you?

[00:16:02]>> Definitely. Absolutely.

[00:16:04]>> No. So, it seems like you're perfectly recognizable then. It looks like you didn't change at all.

[00:16:10]>> No. No, Justin. I'm no longer a slave to sin. It never It does no longer have control over me.

[00:16:17]>> You're a slave to a fictional entity in the sky. You don't control anything. If you controlled sin, you wouldn't lie.

[00:16:28]>> I'm not a slave to it, Justin.

[00:16:30]>> Then then why are you doing it?

[00:16:31]>> I no longer because it's hard not to.

[00:16:35]>> So you're a slave to it?

[00:16:39]>> No, I would not say that I'm a slave to it. I used to be a slave to it. Now I stumble and now you still are cuz you still something is living in it.

[00:16:48]>> Being a liar 100% of the time.

[00:16:51]>> No, >> you are a liar 100% of the time. You never ever told the truth.

[00:16:57]>> That's some crazy stuff right there. No wonder he's a Christian.

[00:17:02]>> Come on, guys. I don't think you're being honest now.

[00:17:04]>> I don't think you're being honest, don't you? You're trying to say that you completely transformed and then when we nail down the specifics of how you transformed, nothing sounds >> All right. Well, let's define what slavery is then. Let's define what slavery is. What is your definition?

[00:17:21]>> Slavery was already misused by you.

[00:17:23]Slavery is when something owns you as literal property and then they take of your actual value by causing you to do work that is unpaid and so on and so forth.

[00:17:35]>> Slavery, Justin. Well, there there is no definition of any other type of slavery.

[00:17:40]So, being enslaved in the mind is not a term that actually has a valid definition. Once you get into metaphor land, like being a metaphorical slave, these aren't things that are actually clearly defined. Being a real slave is clearly defined.

[00:17:58]Also, um it can't be true that >> that's a physical slave. It actually just just be clear it can't be true that become a Christian mind >> it cannot be true that being a Christian delivers you from this problem because even Paul wasn't delivered from it.

[00:18:13]Romans chapter 7 he says I do not do what I want but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do >> if I do what I do not want I agree that the law is good but in fact it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells within me. So what that means right is that the sin is causing people to do things that they don't want against their own will perhaps even which would make you still a slave to sin.

[00:18:43]>> But we have authority over sin now and we're able to use that authority because of what Jesus >> you wouldn't be sinning.

[00:18:48]>> Yeah. So you wouldn't be sinning.

[00:18:49]>> You have the ability to not whenever someone has authority over exercise authority >> yet you're still lying.

[00:18:56]>> Exercising authority is difficult.

[00:18:58]Imagine having the authority to not sin and then purposely choosing to not exercise it. When you when you chose to not exercise your authority over sin, don't you think that in itself would be a sin?

[00:19:15]>> Say that again.

[00:19:17]>> When you chose not to exercise your authority over sin, wouldn't that also just be a sin? You're essentially allowing yourself to sin, which would be a sin in the first place.

[00:19:30]>> Yes. Yes, it would be.

[00:19:32]>> So, >> sounds like your authority is useless.

[00:19:33]Go ahead.

[00:19:34]>> You're not describing transformation.

[00:19:36]All you're describing is that maybe you lie less than you used to.

[00:19:43]>> Yeah, that that you could look at it that way. Lying less.

[00:19:46]>> Okay, great.

[00:19:46]>> But now I have power over I had no power, you guys. I gave into it without even knowing that is again that's called emotional regulation.

[00:19:59]>> So when we are say in middle school we have a difficult time regulating our emotions we often yell at people that we don't mean to yell at. And as we get older we are able to restrain ourselves in a more healthy way. We don't have to have outbursts. We don't have to be as manipulative because >> mine happened overnight though.

[00:20:24]>> Okay.

[00:20:24]>> Mine didn't happen over maturity. Mine might happen overnight. That all >> adorable. I'm sure it did.

[00:20:32]>> So the the problem you have is your So your I'm sure you well Jesus said not to swear in the name of God. So there's your first problem.

[00:20:40]>> Um so it said don't swear by anything in heaven or anything on the earth. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. You don't need to swear to anything. So the problem that you have here is is your proof I'll forgive you. I'll forgive your sins. Your proof for God is necessarily only as far as we've heard >> that he had the power to change you somehow. And when we dig into how did you actually change it doesn't really seem all that miraculous. It might feel miraculous to you because like it was I don't know emotionally powerful but uh the reality is these types of changes happen to all kinds of people in religions and not even in religions like even literally just the placebo effect will get people to do things. Hypnosis will get people to do drastic life changes. Just the power of suggestion is really all you need. So, the question I've got for you is, how do you know that what you did was from God versus the actual scientifically proven power of suggestion?

[00:21:45]>> Because whenever I talk to God and I pray and I have things that I need in my life, he comes through not 99% of the time, 100% of the time. He never fails.

[00:21:55]Where >> Well, pray right now. Pray right now. I want you to pray something that make it will have it come true.

[00:22:02]What would you like me to pray, Justin?

[00:22:04]>> So, I think the thing that we're probably going to have you pray for, um, something that's that's easy that I don't think would be too difficult for God uh to accomplish is um I've got a uh I've got a crown right here with me.

[00:22:19]Now, listen, I know God says he will not be >> Tell me something you need, Justin. Tell me something you need in your life, and I'll actually have everything. I've got everything I need to be fair. So, um, God will not be mocked, which means if God does God, I actually do. Does God want everybody here? We've got right now 1.3,000 people watching.

[00:22:41]>> Does God want these people to come to him?

[00:22:46]>> I believe he does.

[00:22:48]>> So, one of the things that God could do is to answer your prayer. And I simply just want you to pray that the jewels fall off of my crown in embarrassment because I'm not a real king and I'm only mocking the real king. If you can pray and have these jewels fall off my crown, which by the way, one of them's already fallen off over here. They're not even on good. Uh if these jewels fall off the crown while you're praying, I'll end a live stream right now and I'll convert to Christianity and tomorrow I'll be running a live stream that says Jesus is God. How's that?

[00:23:20]>> We're not to test God. If you know the scriptures, you know that we don't test God just >> I do. And God specifically invites you to test him. He specifically invites you to test him on multiple occasions.

[00:23:31]You've >> asked me to, brother.

[00:23:32]>> The passage that says, "Do not tempt God is specifically referring to what the Israelites did in the desert when they didn't just ask God for something. They turned against God and they tempted him to evil. They tested his patience."

[00:23:49]Asking God for clarification is the most normal thing. Isaiah 7:14 he literally tells Ahaz. He says uh in the prior verse he says if you do not stand firm in your faith you won't stand at all. So then he says ask a sign for me. Let it be as deep as sh or as high as heaven and I'll do it for you. So God he did the same for Gideon. Gideon with the fleece uh asked God twice to prove his uh his realness and God was happy to do it. So um God is not above being tested and in fact he asks you to do so.

[00:24:24]He tells you to pray for it in Jesus's name and I will do it. So let's go ahead and take Jesus for his word and just do the prayer.

[00:24:33]>> That's not an honest prayer though, Justin. Matthew 47. No, you're praying to tempt Jesus to jump >> and he'll save you.

[00:24:42]>> I'm not you want to do >> uh No, no, it's not.

[00:24:45]>> You want me to do exactly what Satan told Jesus to?

[00:24:48]>> No, no, no. I'm not asking you to do that because Satan already knows the truth. Satan is not pretending like he doesn't doesn't know what's going to happen. Satan already knows and he just doesn't care. Which means he's just uh carelessly trying to tempt Jesus to to do something that he he shouldn't be doing and he already knows that he's not going to do. It's a useless endeavor.

[00:25:14]>> Tempting is not the same.

[00:25:16]>> You told me before that you don't need anything, but that's not true.

[00:25:19]>> I need I need you to stop being a coward. Actually engage in what I'm saying rather than pretending like you're a mind reader and you're clear.

[00:25:27]You can't be honest. ask my God.

[00:25:29]>> You already admitted that you're you're an uncontrollable liar. So I I don't need you to read my mind anymore. All I want you to do >> is pray these jewels are going to fall off my crown. And listen, listen, how many put a one in the comments right now. If the jewels fall out of this crown, how many of you will be Christians tomorrow with me? Let's see some ones in the comments. There probably I mean might not be a lot of people. I don't know, but there's going to be some people that would be uh persuaded by such an event.

[00:25:59]It is about a 20 second conversation or don't you?

[00:26:03]>> No, I don't think you're ready for that.

[00:26:05]I don't think you're ready at all for an intellectual conversation, which is why you came in with God changed my life and that's how I know he's real. Because if I start reading this book to you, having a real intellectual conversation, you're going to spin out. You're not gonna like what's in this book.

[00:26:23]>> The Bible. I love the Bible.

[00:26:24]>> Yeah. No, you don't.

[00:26:27]>> I do. I know it well.

[00:26:29]>> I'm going to read you a passage. I I want you to tell me if you love it.

[00:26:32]Okay. Ready?

[00:26:35]>> Is Hosea uh 13, right? In this particular chapter, God is saying, "I'm very mad and I'm going to punish uh Ephraim. I'm going to punish the northern Israelites for what they've done. And what he says is Samaria 13:16.

[00:26:55]Samaria shall bear her >> what I said.

[00:27:01]>> Samaria shall bear her guilt >> because she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword. Their little ones shall be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women ripped open.

[00:27:14]You like that verse?

[00:27:17]>> I don't like it.

[00:27:19]>> You said you love the Bible.

[00:27:21]>> I love the Bible. Yeah. But I don't like this verse.

[00:27:24]>> Okay. Well, >> doesn't mean that God isn't holy.

[00:27:27]>> Well, well, why don't you like it?

[00:27:28]>> God chooses who lives and dies. Just enough.

[00:27:30]>> Why don't you like this? No. Why don't you like this? If if God is always righteous and everything he does is righteous, why don't you like this passage?

[00:27:38]>> Because at my heart, I'm bad like you.

[00:27:42]Oh, okay. So, >> this is bad.

[00:27:46]>> So, you actually don't you actually don't know what you what you like.

[00:27:49]>> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on.

[00:27:51]Your argument is that your heart is bad and your bad heart is upset that women are being ripped open. And if you were really good, you would be happy about women being ripped open.

[00:28:09]>> That's some sick [ __ ] >> No, not at all. No. No, not at all.

[00:28:14]>> What did I get wrong there?

[00:28:15]>> We're all wicked in our nature. So, we think we know what's best.

[00:28:19]>> Some of us.

[00:28:20]>> So, I think whenever I read a verse like that that sounds very sad, I think that why did why did God do that? There's something better that I could probably do. But I would be wrong in that >> because I just said that's literally what I just said.

[00:28:36]>> So, what I just said was you are bad.

[00:28:40]And so when you read this passage about women being ripped open, excuse me, >> when you read this passage about women being ripped open, you don't like it.

[00:28:52]But you're saying you are so wicked that it's bad that you don't like this.

[00:28:58]that if you were good, when you see God commanding women to be ripped open, what should happen is you should feel delight because God is doing it. And you're disappointed with yourself because you're not okay with it.

[00:29:14]>> No. No. I have faith in God that what he does is right. And I know my decisions are not better than God's.

[00:29:22]>> That's what I just said.

[00:29:23]>> That my decision to hell.

[00:29:25]>> Joshua, I need you. That's what I just said.

[00:29:30]>> Okay. So, that's what I just said.

[00:29:32]What's your point?

[00:29:33]>> That's disgusting.

[00:29:34]>> What's the point you're trying to make?

[00:29:36]>> That you are hoping that you will get to a point in your life where you read that passage about women being ripped open and you praise God for it.

[00:29:50]>> No, I'm not hoping that I would praise God for killing people. I praise God because he's God.

[00:29:56]I don't agree with everything that God does because I'm not God.

[00:29:59]>> Well, why not? Okay, but you're saying if you were good, you would agree, >> right?

[00:30:06]>> If that's the standard of good, then yes, then I would agree.

[00:30:10]>> God lives God is who lives and dies. You also want to make sure the entire earth >> I'm sure he did. I just want to make sure we're clear on your position.

[00:30:19]You're saying that everyone >> in a in a reality where where we would be good, >> we would agree with God that it's good to have pregnant women ripped open by the sword and take their babies by the legs and bash their heads on rocks. That would be good.

[00:30:39]>> I don't think it would be good.

[00:30:41]>> Okay. But then you contradicted yourself. You're saying the reason why you don't think it's good is because you're sinful. Well, if you weren't sinful, this >> is why I don't put my faith in myself, >> would think that this is good.

[00:30:52]>> This is why I don't put my faith in myself.

[00:30:54]>> Well, let me ask you a question. If you were an ancient Israelite and God said, "Hey, you're going to war and you're going to cut a woman open by the sword and dash the baby on the rocks." Would it be wrong for you to disobey?

[00:31:11]>> It would be wrong for me to disobey God.

[00:31:13]Yes. And would you disobey me to do something and I disobey? It's wrong.

[00:31:17]It's always wrong.

[00:31:18]>> Would you disobey?

[00:31:21]>> Would I? I don't know. I still >> You don't know. I know what I would do.

[00:31:25]I would not be cutting a woman open with a sword. That's for sure. I guess the only maybe the only question I have left cuz we've got another guest. It's the only question I would have left, and Sarah might have more to add, which is like, um, okay, that if in fact God told you, Joshua, uh, what I'm going to need for you to do is just go burn down the local orphanage, would that be the right thing to do?

[00:31:49]>> I don't think God would do that. But no, I couldn't do that. I couldn't do it.

[00:31:53]>> Well, I didn't ask I didn't ask you if you would do it. I said, would it be the right thing to do if God did ask you to do it?

[00:32:01]I don't I don't think God would do that.

[00:32:04]>> So God would literally rip a baby from the womb and smash its head on a rock.

[00:32:11]He would literally drown all of the babies of the earth. But he wouldn't let you light a building on fire with babies in it. Where did that line get drawn?

[00:32:22]>> God has his reasons for all things.

[00:32:24]>> No. No. I'm asking you a very easy question. Why are you >> Why are you drawing the line at Crispy Critters? If God is willing to just wholesale drown babies and have them ripped out of the womb as zygot, why are we now drawing the line?

[00:32:38]>> Do you guys want to know drawing the line at baby fires?

[00:32:43]>> And Joshua, I don't have any indication that you know who God is. So when you try to stand on your high horse and say, "Do you want to know who God is or don't you?" You have not demonstrated that you are a good mouthpiece for this God anyway.

[00:32:58]That definitely seems to be the case.

[00:32:59]Chronic liar, habitual even.

[00:33:03]>> Respectfully, I I don't live to please humanity. I live to please God.

[00:33:08]>> Seems like you're in the wrong place then, cuz your your goal here seems that you're trying to convince us of your position. And if you're not here to actually do that, then I think you're just really kind of confused about what your position is.

[00:33:22]>> And it turns out we answered it >> 25 minutes ago. We we actually answered >> we actually answered the question 25 minutes ago. Maybe that's all you wanted to know God.

[00:33:33]>> We're actually doing that right now.

[00:33:34]>> You want to read the Bible and you want to judge what God has said.

[00:33:37]>> What we're doing is demonstrating why we don't believe in your sky carcass religion because your Messiah gave horrible laws in the Hebrew Bible that are atrocious that causes you to do horrible things. And then also it turns out that he lied himself.

[00:33:56]>> He says things in the New Testament that are demonstrabably untrue. I don't need you to tell me anything about knowing God when no one's going to do it cuz he's a liar and a fraud.

[00:34:08]>> So when are you going to turn to uh Shiva and uh Brahma? When are you going to do that?

[00:34:18]>> If you guys want to know God, you have to put your faith. You're never you're never going to know God if you keep judging the Hindu religion.

[00:34:25]>> We should let this guy go.

[00:34:27]>> I'm I'm not concerned about Hindu religion. I don't know about it. Yeah.

[00:34:30]And I'm not concerned with your religion because it's not true. See how that works? It's really easy.

[00:34:35]>> All right, Josh. Listen, you've already committed yourself to being a chronic liar >> with you guys. All you wanted to do No, you're not sharing your testimony on here.

[00:34:44]>> Yeah. No one cares about your testimony.

[00:34:46]So, what you did do is tell us that you're a chronic liar. That prior to meeting Jesus, you were terrible. It seems like you might still be. Uh, and three, that you're willing to do atrocities for your God, which is crazy um that somebody would even go down that route. Listen, if some god appeared to me and said, "I need you to do this atrocity." I'd be like, "You can [ __ ] send me to hell. Uh, I'll meet you out back if you want to fight, but I ain't going to do that [ __ ] That's crazy. How How would you not know if you're being tested? Maybe God's testing you to see what kind of a piece of [ __ ] you are.

[00:35:17]Crazy.

[00:35:18]Anyways, that was a that was a wild one.

[00:35:20]We got one more left s.

[00:35:25]All right, we're going to take friends.

[00:35:27]We're going to take our last guest and then we're going to read what's left of our super chats after that. All the super chats uh as usual on the line $10 and over we read um during the stream and then at the end of the stream. But let's get uh Christian here. I think Christian might be the name, not probably the religion as well. uh of the caller calling in from Texas that says uh faith is important. Well, Christian, you're on the evangelical with Sarah and Justin. How are you?

[00:35:54]>> Hi, I'm doing well. Hi. Hi, Justin. Hi, Sarah. Justin, I'm a fan of your content.

[00:35:59]>> Sure, thanks. Are you a Christian?

[00:36:02]>> I am. I I Yeah, I am. I was raised Christian for sure.

[00:36:06]>> Okay. So, can you explain why your claim would be true that like faith in I assume you mean the Christian religion is important?

[00:36:16]>> Um, I I I want to I'm so sorry. I came on here to kind of do actually what um what was the last guy's name? Josh.

[00:36:26]>> Yeah. Josh. Yes.

[00:36:29]>> Yeah. I kind of wanted to do what he was doing. You guys tended to be very scriptural in your conversations. I wanted to take it philosophical and he did that. I feel like we're kind of just uh two sides of the same cycle. So I I don't want to bore you guys with more of the last 40 minutes of whatever he was doing.

[00:36:45]>> Well, so he wasn't being philosophical more he just had a personal experience and that's that was that was kind of it.

[00:36:54]Um >> I actually agree with him though except for on the like the the um grandiosity.

[00:37:01]So, you agree that if God commands you to rip women?

[00:37:08]>> No, not not that that's grandiose as hell.

[00:37:11]>> Grandio. Well, it's evil certainly. Um, >> and grandiose maybe maybe the women have Ebola, right? So, you got to kill the women because they have Ebola, right?

[00:37:22]But >> I'm just It was It was It was It was a [ __ ] up way of saying it. What I'm trying to say is maybe there's a reason for [ __ ] up things. But the point that that like so like but I'm not going to believe that I know like me personally not like speaking for God or speaking for Christianity. I don't believe that I should be deciding that kind of does that make sense?

[00:37:47]>> Well no but see that that's the problem is that in in this religion God decides it. So if God tells you to do that, would you do it?

[00:37:58]>> No. No. I I So I'll be honest. I have had psychos psychotic episodes and I was very lucky that I was aware of the psychotic episode mid I went to a CVS and I got a mask or I was asking for a mask and I had a panic attack sort of mid them leaving to get the mask which had like time dilation and all kinds of things. And I was able to recognize the symptoms of the psychotic episode.

[00:38:24]Praise to God. Uh so like I would I've actually been confronted with jump over a counter and steal it because none of this is real. Like that actual thought in my mind was able. What I'm asking is if you believe in this God and if you believe in this Bible, the God in the Bible commands his followers to do these things.

[00:38:51]>> So getting a command from God that says dash the babies against the rocks and rip the women open, that is in character for your God. So why would you assume you are having psychosis if you got a command like this? Because that is in character for this guy.

[00:39:11]>> Because I I I so I know God. I don't I hate to say that but it is like because just because the Josh was saying the same thing over and over again and it it is pompous to say you know God. Um, but I knew that what I was thinking was wrong and it didn't match up with my my 35 years of faith prior.

[00:39:33]>> Okay. But this is something in the Bible, >> right? So like in the Bible, God says, "Dash the babies against the rocks." So I'm ask why would you think like if you think God is commanding you to do that, why would you think it's wrong? Like God has already done that. He's demonstrated that is in his character to do >> cross you would use cross referencing you would I I just you know >> the cross referencing would take you to the passage where God says yes do this.

[00:40:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. And then but that's like one verse right so I don't know how to explain how I was able to rationally and logically do what I do except for the fact that through it.

[00:40:17]>> So my point is to murder >> I Yeah. God tells people to murder all the time in the Old Testament. Yes.

[00:40:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. But like in different ways, right? Like at the very least he's not constantly like stashing babies on rocks like in like a bunch of verses, right?

[00:40:30]>> Actually, he does. Yeah. Mhm.

[00:40:33]>> How many different verses are are babies dashed on rocks specifically?

[00:40:37]>> Psalm Psalm 137, Isaiah 13:16-1 17. Um then also in Hosea 13. And there's actually more. How many do you think we would need before it becomes like, >> you know, a credible threat?

[00:40:53]>> He just gave you three.

[00:40:54]>> Three.

[00:40:54]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:40:55]>> He gave you three.

[00:40:56]>> Yeah. So, three. So, three. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't I I don't believe in that.

[00:41:00]I don't believe in smashing babies on rocks. I'm sorry.

[00:41:03]>> Christian.

[00:41:05]Okay.

[00:41:07]So, you said you would need three to know that it's a pattern.

[00:41:11]Justin gave you three. And so clearly you worship a god who would command his followers to dash babies on rocks.

[00:41:20]>> I guess I guess so. I guess so. So maybe that's what I'm saying. The maybe Josh was doing the philosophical thing way better than I can even do it. And on top of it, well, I'm not trying to talk about scripture because it's just not it's just not my relationship with God. I I was raised in the church, but I think that scripture does kind of I like to think more about biology. So, like I'm a I don't know what you guys do outside of this debate.

[00:41:48]Uh but I'm a musician.

[00:41:50]>> Sarah would love to address biology if you think that that points you towards Jesus.

[00:41:56]>> It does. It does actually.

[00:41:58]>> All right. So, how so what part of our body sees in 3D?

[00:42:04]Are you going to tell me that the eyeball is too complex and that's why?

[00:42:09]>> No, it's not. It's very simple. It's a it's a a two-dimensional ocular device is it doesn't there's no part of our of our face that sees in 3D. It's the combination the superp position of the uh two two dimensional images. But even just combining two dimensional >> you can see in 3D because of parallax like even if you have one eyeball >> giving you one image just the parallax effect will allow you to determine 3D.

[00:42:37]>> Yes. Yes. So like what par I think for the audience and also to clarify for myself when you say parallax you mean like the same shape uh different and like you can tell that the other shape is smaller than the one shape. So then therefore depth perception. So parallax is this interesting thing where if you've got two objects in front of you, one at a greater distance than the other, and you move in any way possible, you can see that the two items move different uh compared to each other because one is in front of the other, right? So the fact that I'm holding this in front of my screen with one eye, I can move and this ball against my actual monitor moves when I move because parallax Yes. So there so like for instance we can talk about a a tunnel and this is just for for the image. So we're talking about a tunnel and you have a tunnel.

[00:43:33]You can tell that the openings are a similar shape and you can see that there's light coming from the tunnel and there's a certain distance that the light goes and there's all of these uh cues like psychological cues. I guess another way to describe parallax would be a set of psychological cues which grant us hum uh uh uh grant us death.

[00:43:56]>> How does this get us to God?

[00:43:59]>> So check this out, right? So no matter what, right? We have to have faith in our cues, right? So the the roadrunner issue, right? How do I know that this is a a tunnel or a wall?

[00:44:17]Right? So, when we're walking, even with measurements, we have faith in the tools. We have faith in our eyes. We have faith as a as a the same way that Isaac Newton was a Christian scientist.

[00:44:32]The faith is a precedent to the knowledge. And that's part of why I have this belief in God. A big part of actually >> I don't know what you said, Sarah. Did you do grasp bat? Cuz I was struggling to figure out what the point was.

[00:44:46]>> Sorry. Yeah. H >> uh have you ever been around babies?

[00:44:51]>> A bunch of babies. Yeah, sure.

[00:44:52]>> Yeah. So, do you ever see babies like drop things almost like cats? You know, they push things off and and try and like see what's happening.

[00:45:02]>> Yes.

[00:45:03]>> They're running experiments.

[00:45:05]the the things that we know about how our senses interact with the physical world, we've come to those conclusions through experiments.

[00:45:16]>> Um, >> and that is the opposite of faith.

[00:45:21]So, if I have experimental data, >> I can make predictions about what I think is going to happen because of the data. That does not require any faith.

[00:45:35]So mem looking at the cues that I can see and predicting that I'm going to go through a tunnel, that is not an act of faith. That is a prediction based on conclusive evidence. So I fail to see how that is proof of a god or even indicates a god.

[00:45:59]>> Oh no. Do we lose him?

[00:46:02]Oh no.

[00:46:04]>> Shoot. He's in the terminated call section now. I wonder if he just lost reception.

[00:46:09]Um well, that's unfortunate. Well, I guess we can give him a second to see if he connects back up. Um he wasn't being uh like super like rude or anything. He just I'm not sure. I I doubt he ran. I think he just lost connection. H weird.

[00:46:26]>> Oh, that's a bummer.

[00:46:27]>> Well, that's unfortunate. We didn't get any resolution to the conversation, the talking point we were on. But um boy, I uh I got to be honest and and maybe I'm being too judgmental, but when people open with I happen to experience psychotic uh episodes, that makes me pretty reluctant to believe whatever they're about to tell me about their god.

[00:46:50]>> I mean, I appreciate that he was able to distinguish them. Like, I have not experienced that. And so maybe I would not know if I was experiencing one, you know. Um, and so I mean I can appreciate that that part of the of the discussion, but man, when someone wants to use biology to prove God, I >> Yeah, this could be I was actually hoping though. I was really hoping he'd have something to sink your teeth into and it it turned out it was like maybe not even woo wooy. It was just mostly word salad.

[00:47:28]It seemed like >> Yeah. He was just trying to say that like we use faith in everyday life and so therefore you should have faith in God and it actually had nothing to do with biology. Not really.

[00:47:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Well, listen friends, it is it's now uh 9:27.

[00:47:44]We are out of callers and the call queue is closed. Thank you everyone for being with us. We're going to read through our super chats of $10 and over. We really appreciate everybody uh coming in and supporting the show. If you got questions for Sarah and I, you're welcome to send them in via super chat.

[00:48:00]We'll grab them before the show ends. Uh this is going to be a new, as far as I know, weekly show or at least bi-weekly.

[00:48:07]I think they're still working out some details. And so, if you like seeing uh Sarah on Saturday Night Lives, you like seeing me occasionally on Saturday Night, um make sure you stop in every Saturday night. We're going to be doing this more and more. Um, and we'll be switching up some hosts here and there, but I think this would be a really cool show that really gets to talk about the specific topic of just Christianity from the viewpoint of people who were in it and are no longer in it. And so, essentially, we now have a dedicated channel or at least a dedicated show for deconstruction content. So, if you're in the deconstruction space on TikTok and you're looking for a good deconstruction space on YouTube, we've got a show for you now. And uh obviously Sarah is going to bring in all of her wisdom and experience in these conversations. Then we'll have Thinker in here and we'll have some other people coming in as hosts that are going to be fabulous. Um but nevertheless, let me uh get over to the super chats. We've got one from our friend Dusk Frame. Good to see you. says, "Uh, imagine if this show was hosted by formerly religious flying insects. Then it would be the be evangelical.

[00:49:21]All right. All right. Do uh did were you around for the look at the bees argument?"

[00:49:29]>> No. Is like look at the trees but look at the bees.

[00:49:33]>> We got one at least a couple weeks ago.

[00:49:36]There was a guy coming in and saying, "According to science, is not physically possible for bees to fly. It's a miracle." Which obviously isn't true.

[00:49:45]Uh, and then we spent the next 10 minutes showing him why that's not true and why it was just a dumb claim by some guy like back in the 20s.

[00:49:54]>> It's actually a a claim by um Bill Dinger. Dillinger. Oh my gosh, why can't I say his name correctly? who was this is not going to be interesting to anyone but he was the coach at the University of Oregon for the distance runners and when Steve Prefontaine back in the mid70s was like the world's best 5K runner that was his coach and he used to say well you know a bee can't fly a bumblebee is too heavy to fly but no one tells the bee that and then off he goes so go have a good race and and be the bee >> oh no >> okay sorry I know that was too much >> it's okay it's I would also say friends, if you enjoy uh Sarah and I reading the Bible, we do it every week as well on the Exevangelical Podcast, not to be confused with the Dangelical Show here.

[00:50:44]We actually do the Exangelical Podcast.

[00:50:46]So you you can get your fill of uh Justin and Sarah ripping on the Bible.

[00:50:51]And hey, Dr. Joe, we were just talking about you earlier tonight. Thank you for the super chat. Says, "It worked for me." translates every time to uh you didn't work hard enough for the faith that I worked for but is also freely given grace and not works based do better atheist% >> all the time.

[00:51:12]>> Yes.

[00:51:13]>> What did you do to earn God's revelation? Oh, nothing. I'm a dirty rotten sinner. Okay, then how come I don't get it? Well, you obviously aren't doing the right things, but you didn't do the right things either.

[00:51:25]>> Mhm. every time.

[00:51:27]>> It never fails. Hey, and uh how Stephie, good to see you, friend. Thank you for the super chat. Says, "This duo uh is like dagger. Two sharp edges. Christians stand no chance. Every flawed argument gets shredded. Dude, that met the spiritual Jesus was slapped by reason on both cheeks."

[00:51:46][ __ ] amazing joke.

[00:51:48]>> Fantastic.

[00:51:49]>> Yeah, that was the case. Very well done.

[00:51:55]Oh man, good to see a house. And Darth Willow with another super chat. Thank you so much. Says, "Not even Donald Jesus Trump lies 100% of the time. He tries, but it's like getting to the speed of light. You just can't get there from here."

[00:52:09]You know, to be fair, uh, man, it is intriguing. Like, I wanted to press, we didn't have time, I wanted to press a little bit deeper into what he was like before he got saved. And I' I'd be curious if his description of himself matches what other people would have said about him prior >> because like when >> Mhm.

[00:52:32]>> I want say and his description of his complete and total unrecognizable transformation would also match what people would say now. Yeah. There was a book I had to read in seminary and I apologize I don't remember the name of it now but it was going over um some of the cultlike behaviors and one of the things that it pointed out is a lot of times when you're in a cult one of the primary tactics they have to do in order to make your conversion experience more real is they have you to they need you to think that what you did before joining the cult you were just doing all evil stuff. You were helpless. You were evil. You couldn't help yourself. and now you're in this cult and look everything's, you know, better or at least it's on the up and up. Now, the irony of reading this book on cults is that it was written for a Christian audience and it happens to apply to Christians. But >> tomato tomatoes, whatever.

[00:53:24]>> It's the same thing.

[00:53:26]Oh boy. And uh Foxy, hey, good to see you, Foxy. Thank you for the $10 super says hail the king and queen of evangelicals, which Sarah, where's your crown? I don't have a crown. I mean, I need like a tiara, I guess.

[00:53:42]>> Oh, >> I don't even think I have anything that would be >> tiara. We'll have to work on that.

[00:53:48]>> Okay. I >> mean, based on the Christian reasoning, if you can get a tiara on top of your melon, you'd be queen for sure. And I could mock you and we can make it doubly official.

[00:54:01]>> Yes. If you mocked me, that would Trying to see if I had anything. Oh, you know what I do have?

[00:54:09]>> Yeah.

[00:54:11]Want to see this one.

[00:54:14]I'm almost afraid to know what she's going to grab.

[00:54:18]Oh, yeah. There it is. It even color coordinated. Were you planning this? Is this prophetic?

[00:54:24]This is typological. This is a fulfillment. Tada.

[00:54:30]And you know what? As you were doing that, a super chat of the identical same color showed up. This is clearly a prophecy, a types and shadows prophecy for Sarah obviously being the queen. So, you've heard it here based on proper Christian hermeneutics. Uh Jesus isn't the only king and now there is a queen.

[00:54:53]And in name glory, thank you for the $10 super chat. And beautiful kitty says, "Where does Jesus leading a perfect life come from? Is it in the Bible or made up later? He clearly lies, send his followers to steal for him, and attacks legal renters in their shops. Perfect.

[00:55:09]Actually, this is actually a really interesting point because like if you're looking at the behavior of Jesus, he does things that are clearly wrong. Like when he killed all the pigs, >> like that's property damage.

[00:55:22]>> You can't just go kill someone's livestock.

[00:55:26]>> Um it doesn't make any sense at all. And then, you know, obviously he he has his people steal the donkey in Matthew 21 and the others. And then, let's see, he he flips over the money changers in the temple, which were legally allowed to be there. In Deuteronomy, there is a provision for them to be there because if you live far away, you can just bring money and buy the animal while you're there. They'll change your money for animal. And so Jesus is he's not got a great track record of like being a great guy, but you know what are you gonna do?

[00:56:00]Uh, and last super chat from house 70.

[00:56:02]Thank you so much. Says Sarah and Justin. There must be something in your inonation that cues guests to jump in while you're still speaking. Happens all the time. I would say it does happen all the time, but I think it happens more even when Sarah's speaking because there are certain number of people out there, certain categories of people that are used to talking over people that they perceive can be easily dominated and just happens to be that they typically don't look like me. That's been my experience, right Sarah? On your live stream, >> I've seen people talk over you and then when I start talking, they pipe down.

[00:56:38]>> Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. When I first started doing it, um, you would always hang out. I'd have you hang out in my corner because people could be so terrible. I've gotten better now. Like now I can I can yell at people a little more or at least mute them.

[00:56:54]>> It really is true. Uh, friends, tomorrow is Sunday. We got a full day of shows tomorrow. In fact, make sure you're tuning in because I'll be on the Sunday show and the After Dark Show tomorrow.

[00:57:07]So, make sure you're showing up. And uh we've got a lot of people coming on the calendar this month. Some you may have seen and some you may not have fully seen. We got some new creators coming in. So make sure you're tuning in for the shows on Sunday. Also, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And um I guess that I suppose that's about it. Um I'm I'm hearing that there's no outro credits or outro song. So then what we're going to do is just literally it sounds like just kill the stream. We'll end it just like that caller who got hung up or he didn't get hung up on. He hung up on himself in mid-sentence.

[00:57:47]No, I'm just joking. Friends, thank you for being here. Sarah, I had a blast.

[00:57:51]>> Thank you so much. Thanks everyone for hanging out. It was so much fun.

[00:57:56]>> Absolutely. And Ardan, thank you for being here producing. There's so many things people could have been doing on Saturday night, but you're here with us.

[00:58:03]So, thank you.