Effective superhero season finales should realize character arcs by bringing all major players into the narrative, providing closure to character journeys, and establishing clear stakes for future seasons. The Daredevil: Born Again season 2 finale exemplifies this by having Matt Murdock reveal his Daredevil identity to the world, which serves as the final puzzle piece needed to dismantle Kingpin's rule and disband the anti-vigilante task force. This approach ensures that viewers understand how far characters have come throughout the season and creates anticipation for future storylines.
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‘Daredevil: Born Again’ S2 Finale and ‘The Odyssey’ Trailer Reactions | The Midnight BoysAdded:
Welcome into the ringverse. This is of course the ringer's nexus podcast fee for all things fandom. We are Steve the architect almond the builder and tinkerer of things. Joey the algorithm a dinneron. You've got questions. He's got ways to trick your mind.
>> All right.
>> Old man van he of the receding resurgent hairline Coke. Baby Chuck the 24 karat closer. Together we are known as THE MIDNIGHT BOYS.
I WONDER IF I DID IT to the wrong camera. Is it this camera or this camera?
>> I mean, I think it's for the wide. It's the wide.
>> This camera? Yeah. Okay. We'll be right back after this.
All right. Follow us on socials at the Midnight Boys Pod on Insta and Tik Tok.
at Ringerverse on Insta, Twitter, Facebook, and Tik Tok. Joy guys, we got to do another uh you know, say the same thing at the same time video, right? We need to do it. We can't do 10 because the video was too long. We got to keep it to like five.
>> I'm never doing that video again.
>> What? What do you mean? People want to see it again.
>> Never again.
>> Why are you like this?
>> You can't take it seriously, Jeremy.
>> I can. Guys, you sold the first content.
I made I made I didn't sell it for content. Don't do that. Don't do that.
I'm not on that Pete Rose stuff. Don't do me like that. Okay. Hey, it was one time, but we're a family, man. We got We We going to get it on the first try one time.
>> What What What else are you going to look to clip farm from us?
>> Uh I got some ideas for House of the Dragon. Okay.
>> Percolating.
>> We should do Star Wars, but you can't do Vader.
>> See, look. This is >> for Mando. But you can't do Vader.
>> He's cooking. Look at my guy. He's cooking. We can't No Vader.
>> No Vader because that' be easy. This the first person.
See, now we're Now we're there. I like this guy. He's locked in. Yeah, you know, there's an interesting dichotomy, not dichotomy, interesting environment that we have here on the show >> to where like, you know, Charles and I are here. You guys, everybody has different jobs throughout the company. So, you guys a lot, sometimes Steve bosses me around like sometimes we boss me around. Alia boss me around. Jomy boss me around. I get bossed around a lot by you guys. I'm not doing your video.
>> Okay.
>> I'm not doing your video unless you do something for me.
>> So, if you want in the future, right, >> I'm putting my foot down.
>> Quit pub crow >> in the future. You got to bring cuz you cook for people.
>> This is what you do when you want other people to do stuff. When you want to go over and hang out, you cook for people.
You bring them cookies.
>> You bring them I would like some cookies or some stuff like that. I want something to have to do extra work. You know what I've realized in the Joy has changed? Maybe you haven't changed.
Maybe you've always been this way.
Because usually with your cooking stories, >> there's a shoddy there.
>> Yeah.
>> But it's like when it's your homies, your day ones, the people that you built, you build, you break, right?
Well, >> those are his thirst traps. Those are his traps. Joy is Jomi is one of those types. I know how the c the the company would be if Jomie was leading the company >> because Ji is one of those people that like I ask you to do something and then act like it's for you.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, when I was at So, when I was at TMZ, this was the funniest thing that they used to do at TMZ.
>> So, they would make you feel good about denying your vacation.
>> Yeah. Jesus.
>> So, they would be like, somebody would go up to them and be like, "Hey man, you know, I want to go on vacation. I want to [ __ ] take my family to Costa Rica or something like that." And they'd be like, "Hey, you can't go." Okay.
Vacation did not. And then Charles would be like, "But it's actually a good thing." Cuz think about that. That means that we can't have you off of the show.
We need you to be here on the show.
Like, you're so integral to the show. We can't spare a week from you. And people would be coming to me, they would be sitting down, they would talk, they'd be like, "Yeah, actually it's [ __ ] they say I can't go, but actually, you know, kind of on the bright side, that just kind of means that they need me around here to be right."
>> I'd be like, "Are you [ __ ] nuts? Are you >> That's some real jiu-jitsu right there.
No, that's not how it is. First and foremost, I cook for myself. Don't do me like that. Number two, more importantly, vertical video is the future. I don't know if y'all been on Netflix recently, but they got their own little vertical video tab. Everybody is in >> We haven't been on Netflix.
>> All right, before we get to programming reminders, we have to bring it up. Van >> comedian extraordinaire.
>> Netflix is a joke.
>> Up there with luminaries such as Macy Gray, >> Eric Bet.
>> Eric Bet. How did it feel? I heard like we were hearing rumblings that you were a little nervous backstage. Were there nerves?
>> I wasn't nervous. I was terrified.
>> Like when I tell you guys like I went through first of all the entire week. So I used to be really afraid to fly.
>> Like super afraid afraid to fly to the point to where like three weeks before a flight uh like two weeks before a flight. I'm counting down the days until the flight. It's amazing how I've gotten over it. There was the same thing. I was walking every single morning, working out the routine. I was asking questions, doing all of this stuff. And the entire time that I'm going there, I am just like I I almost had a panic attack cuz a couple of comedian friends of mine told me right out the routine.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, I almost had a panic attack writing out the routine. I was >> And you're visualizing yourself on stage.
>> It became real. I was at Matteo till about 7:30 on Friday night just walking around. People like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing at Matteo?" Cuz I had to be by myself.
>> Then when I got there, everybody up there was fine. I saw that Eric Benet was really nervous. Shout out to Eric.
Shout out to Terry. Shout out to everybody that was on that night.
>> Uh then I had a couple of drinks and that killed the nerve, >> right?
>> Nerves. And Francesca came over and she goes, "Hey, don't have this third drink because you don't want to go up there drunk."
>> Yeah.
>> And then that put into my mind again that you could go up there and make a fool of yourself.
>> Yeah. Glad you at the L factory cuz I was like, "Oh, Macy Gray." I was like, "Wait, where's Van?" I was so afraid you were closing the show. I'm like, "Damn, they must really be like >> What happened was I couldn't get the set down. The set was supposed to be 3 minutes."
>> Oh.
>> So, I couldn't get I don't >> Two things. One, too many people were telling me not to go up there and try to tell jokes >> cuz I could have written jokes that were a lot like the first joke that I came off with.
>> Yeah. Well, I could have written those, but a lot of people were saying don't do that because your timing and all that stuff that's a muscle that you have to develop. So, get up there and like tell a story and like put jokes in the story.
So, I did that, but I couldn't get it down to 3 minutes.
>> And so, Idol was like, "Okay, we're just going to throw you up towards the end."
>> And so, then like that's that's so I could go a little bit longer because >> But it's funnier, you were the most of the dock meetings. You were the most relaxed. I was just like there were a lot of people got up there. I won't say who, but he's just like, "Yeah, I FORGOT THAT I HAD THIS TODAY." And then he immediately went like I saw the Michael Jackson movie. They had Joe [ __ ] up. I was like, okay. I was like, >> he was dying at that. Not like and like it was funny. He was like, "This is not a serious not serious."
>> No. Once you know getting the the gentleman will not be named, but once he started being the fake president having a phone call with Yahoo, I was like, "Y'all chill, bro."
>> Yeah, that's a lot. Y'all chill.
Do y'all want to hear? I'll do this.
I'll do this. We might have to deep shadow this. Do y'all want to hear? Can Alia hear me back there? I want to hear it from Alia.
>> Yeah, I'm here.
>> Okay. Do you guys want to hear the Charlie Kirk joke that I took out of my set?
>> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> Lock in.
>> So, hello Ringers fans. I regret to inform you that due to the initiation of Deep Shadow Protocol, this bit had to be edited out of the pod. I know. I'm just as disappointed as you are. Thanks as always for listening and the Midnight Boys. Pew pew. We'll get back to you shortly.
>> See, here's the thing. No, hold on. Hold up. YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID THAT JOKE.
>> YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED. THIS IS WHY. SO, WE'RE OUT OF DEEP SHADOW portal right now. You should have said that joke BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BOGGED and then the silence would have made.
>> No, it would have gone over in that crowd. No, >> I want I want to I want a What do you think?
>> Don't deep shadow. Don't deep shadow.
Don't deep shadow.
>> I would have laughed.
>> You see? Yeah, we would have left >> like So now we have to deep shadow cuz I haven't used it yet.
>> Oh, right. You can't give away the storm.
>> You can't give away the sub. I haven't used it yet. So like that's a great joke. No, actually now we deep shadowing too much. You got >> You're right. You're right. You're right. I just wanted to because like I like the some of these jokes that that that were skewing whatever I would run it by Kalika. I remember I ran that one by Kalika and she went >> no >> that would have killed and between that one and the abortion one. She was like keep the keep the keep that one because that that show what kind of time you're on. But she >> Well, the abortion one actually it warm people up real quick.
>> Yeah. She was like she keep that one because it lets people know what kind of time you're on. She was like, "Maybe get a little deeper into your [ __ ] before you >> God bless Kica for for that." But to me, but yeah. But yeah, so that that's that's where I was.
>> Uh, well, I'm going again.
>> Wait, for real?
>> July 17th.
>> Oh, wow.
>> Wait, is is this another like pass around like celebrity like 3 minutes and stuff like that?
>> Aydah said that she she's like there's something July 17th she's at the Ford Theater. Oh, what the [ __ ] >> Going again. Going again.
>> Comedian van.
>> Yeah, comedian. Comedian van. I like I'll probably do the same set there, >> but eventually the the the Kanye set with that joke in there.
>> I will. What What is the timeline on getting Charlie Kirk jokes off before we're just like, you know, I feel like we're already past it. I feel like some people are already >> No, because they got mad. They were doing this like prom transition with the with the audio of him being shot >> and they got really mad about >> that. They got they got him on like AI like LeBron mixtapz.
>> I mean like the like m like the memes and stuff I think like you know you can't like there the genie out the bottom on that look.
>> But I'm sorry. Apologies to everyone.
>> They got they George Floyd jokes off.
They went crazy up >> like the whole deal. It's happening.
You'll hear it. Not yet, but you will hear that joke. As long as it's as as long as if you guys get the joke and the joke is funny. I don't give a [ __ ] how. Yeah. Okay, cool. Don't [ __ ] THAT [ __ ] ALL RIGHT. REMINDERS ON THURSDAY, but Mash reacts to Mortal Kombat 2. Next week, House of the Midnight Boys react to Punisher: One Last Kill. Really interested in this.
>> I'm excited. This is the most I've been excited for like an MCU joint in a minute. I'll >> say more. I just from the trailer, Pars is not even my favorite character. I could take him or leave him, but I was just like, "Dog, just give me the gritty Netflix like at home 90minute [ __ ] >> banger." Honestly, we we just saw Mortal Kombat.
>> We might talk about it at some point. I would like more movies that I could watch at home that are like 90 minutes and don't take themselves too seriously.
>> It's the going to the theater that I'm a little bit like, DAMN, Y'ALL JUST WASTING MY TIME.
>> When Marvel understands the assignment, that's what really gets me excited. And when I can tell that they understand the assignment in a trailer like that, that's when >> Also, really quick, did y'all hear um my man, the creator of Beef? I'm I'm forgetting his name was on the watch talking about the X-Men.
>> Oh, uh uh Daniel David.
>> No, that's not Spider-Man. That's Spider-Man.
>> No, the writer of the showrunner.
>> Oh, who's now doing X-Men? Yeah. What?
>> Yeah. He was uh talking about just um the process of them because I think there's three writers of just being at Marvel at the compound every single X-Men on the wall kind of debating who's going to be it. And he was >> isn't like the main character the main focus of >> like the main focus of it and a he was a big fan of the animated '90s series which means I think they're going in that direction. But what I want to ask you, >> is it almost confirmed now that they're going back to the original five?
>> I don't know, but that's like seems like >> no Wolverine, no Storm. It's Cyclops, Jean, Iceman, Beast, >> Angel.
>> Yeah.
>> Seems like >> that to me is a huge risk. Even though story-wise, it's what I want.
>> I don't think it's that much of a risk.
>> You don't think so?
>> No. Because we've seen like all like for the most part.
>> Yeah. I don't think it's that much of a risk because I to me number one if you if anything these superhero movies have told us if you get the story right the characters that you put on screen don't really matter as much. I mean, true. And it was um >> they did it with Thunderbolts with characters that no one gave a [ __ ] about >> versus Cyclops Gene. We do have >> and I mean, hey, Satie Sync, >> you know.
>> Also, we've seen iterations of these characters of like this world with like Wolverine being the main character for the most part, right? So, it's nice that we like then this is what Marvel loves to do. Take it back to the old school.
Take it back to the OG. You going to get uh the first edition of these characters.
>> I think they scared a little bit though.
I think they scared of recasting Wolverine.
>> Well, they don't they don't they honestly and obviously don't have Wolverine yet. But even more to the point, if you don't have the crutch of Wolverine or the crutch of whatever other character that has captivated people for such a long time, maybe you'll put that into the creative. Maybe you'll tell the story of the foundation of the X-Men, the world that they live in, their relationship to that world, their relationship to one another, their relationship to Xavier, uh, all of the other things that are fracturing mutant kind from humankind. Maybe that'll be the thing that you'll lean into and not so much fan service with characters that we've seen in X-Men movies for the last 15 or 20 years >> because um, his name is Lee Sung Jin. uh the showrunner Beefy also said what what I thought was interesting is that Feige and Joanna Ao who works on the Bay and them they've been talking about what they want to focus on for this and he was talking about how like shout out our man Kimber rightfully so a lot of those movies leaned on the the the race allegorories the queer allegorories being prejudice fighting against the world and he was saying that a lot of the energy for this new film is them going back to that early Stanley, they're in high school, they're they're hormonal teens, this is a friendship, this is a family. And I was like, okay, that's that's like actually like an interesting way cuz that's the one thing I felt like the Fox films didn't do as well where it didn't feel like when you're reading an X-Men comic, you're just like, "Oh, this is college and they're never leaving."
>> Like, this is the house they lived. This is the dorm they live. You're living with your best friends. You're fighting.
It's a soap opera. That's the way I feel like you have to do it.
>> Unpopular statement from me, you know, the X-Men were always they always existed to me for everybody else as well as you know their mutants and their outcast from society and stuff like that. That was always there. But for a lot of the X-Men stuff that I read, that was never super paramount.
No, >> that was never it was never like >> their relationships to one another were always much more important than their relationship to the world. And you know they would fight people who were directly based in like mutant terrorism, >> Magneto, mutant terrorist, people like that.
>> But then there were other existential threats that the X-Men fought that were just people who wanted to do bad [ __ ] and the X-Men were the only one who could stop them, right?
>> Uh people who wanted to dominate the world. the X-Men were only one that could stop him. So, it wasn't always a social fight that the X-Men were fighting. I have no problem with that.
That's actually awesome. That's what makes them special, don't get me wrong, because they only have one another and they have all of these fantastic powers.
But, I think a version of the team that's actually more centered on them as heroes.
>> I think I'm into that right now.
>> I was everything from the chat, yo, go uh watch the interview on the watch. I like it made me even more excited for the X-Men film cuz it it also did seem I'm like, "Oh, I think you guys are not only going back to basics." I do think that they need to make a smaller film.
>> Yeah.
>> Where I do think it's more important instead of trying to make an Avengers film right away. I would rather have something that is like closer ironically to Thunderbolt's new but like something that's a little bit more.
>> So then who would be the villain or your small X-Men movie?
>> Oh, it has to be Mr. Sinister. I feel like >> Mr. as soon as you start great like you start cuz Magneto to me Magneto and Wolverine are the hard and honestly Professor X are the three hardest characters I think get each of them right in in multiple >> Magneto will be somewhere in this movie >> think so. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think he's too to me I think Magneto is uh he's too important. He's too foundational to the X-Men to particularly >> started. We've seen Magneto for ye. I think that >> see Professor X for years. I mean, there are certain people that have to be involved in the [ __ ] >> But to me, I'm just like I feel like they want this to feel so new and it's like immediately recasting Magneto is just like, >> well, you got you got Yeah. Xavier.
>> Yeah. So, you got to get Professor X and the X-Men right. Put a new villain in there. And, you know, second, it's like, yo, it's sometimes in the Batman movies, they not always giving you Joker right away. Well, I think the I think the Joker in every Batman movie, by the way, like in they in every Batman movie, they go even if they don't give you the Joker, they go, "Hold on.
>> He's somewhere.
>> The Joker's here."
>> Like, and they they can't even Batman begins with the card at the end >> and let you guys know, hey, you're not going to go from this to [ __ ] Clayface.
>> You you you you this villain that a lot of you guys don't know who the [ __ ] this is. Yeah.
And just just let you know when we go big, we're going to the Joker because that's the essence of it.
>> But I'll say this. Yeah, I'll look into it. Yeah. The [ __ ] guy comes over, he took your [ __ ] movie over. That's what happens. You look into that.
>> Look into the fact that he came over to and and took your movie over there. Made you Robin. Now, um I will say I still think and I'm interested in what y'all think that even the Batman Joker relationship isn't quite as fundamental to Batman's world as the Xavier Magneto relationship is. It's almost as if but yeah, it's almost as if Xavier cannot exist without Magne. And that's why I think that I like why Charles is excited because if you put even if Xavier's there, if he's put on the back burner, it becomes about the class. It becomes about that family of heroes rather than the gigantic existential two brothers on the opposite ends of the law philosophy of Magneto versus Xavier on a battle of principles and the ways to see the world. If they're just kids that are figuring out life and like solving the problems of the world, I think that that's a good place to start and then getting us into the entire like existential what does it mean to be a mutant in a human world, etc. >> I think the math just goes back to like I think they're four for four in casting Magneto and Professor X with James Makavoy and Patrick Stewart and I Mckllen and Michael Fazpender, right?
And so if we're going back to basics, you you wouldn't you wouldn't give them that right off the bat. you'd probably hold Magneto for a second, but to your point, the films have like legitimately been like based around those two characters and their friendship and the dissolving of the friendship and them like going butting heads. I think you can't like I would save that for the second joint, but I would put Magneto in the first >> because also the big the big question I have is like and I'm going to be interested in how the MCU figures this out.
You can't have Magneto as a character to me without his connection to World War II.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> Which but if this movie is going to be set in the present time, I'm like most of those people have been aged out.
>> So like you're going to have to figure out like how is Magneto in this world?
Cuz if they want to cast a youngish Professor X in his like what 40s 50s >> X gene just makes him So, so that Magneto that Magneto problem is going to have to be figured out because when in the '9s we had this uh resurgence of conversation around the what was called the greatest generation generation with World War II. You had save Private Ryan, you had Bander Brothers, you had the construction of the World War II museum in in uh in New Orleans, which might have come a little bit before that. I can't remember when that actually happened. When did that happen? But what I'm saying is that like that was almost in a way like sending that generation off. Like so they could see how much we appreciated them, how much we appreciate how they fought in World War II and all of that stuff. At that point, we were what >> 50 years removed from from from the war, from the end of the war.
>> You guys, at a certain point, when you put a historical [ __ ] landmark in comic book lore, you move further away from that landmark. You have to change.
Like >> so you think they're going to do that?
>> You they at some point if it's not now at some point they will.
>> Yeah.
>> Well at at some point keeps that character in the past.
>> Well it keeps that character either you have to put him in suspended animation or you have to start the [ __ ] in the 80s or at a certain point just from a timeline perspective you're going to get to a spot where it's you you can't do it anymore. You got to think about like Cap got frozen in World War II and like uh it was like what 30 40 years in the in the in the uh ' 80s and '90s. Now it's almost like got like 70 80 years, >> right? Like that's the I think and even in the comics it's always like a sliding scale like um the um what Iron Man at first it was Vietnam and then it becomes uh Afghanistan Afghanistan like those >> because you can't [ __ ] put them in Vietnam, right? You know what I Like so it's but it's I mean for his point though like >> but Magneto is a character it's like our understanding from him and then I agree with you on a fundamental level but our understanding of that character is so tied to World War II him being Jewish the concentration camps how that molded just his worldview >> it's not as easy to me as like putting >> Tony Stark in Afghanistan you know because it's it makes it this weird like okay what's the modern-day equivalent of all of this and how do you find a way to justify that level of >> Well, guys, guess what? In comics, you can do that because there's no >> Here's here's the reality. You just can't do it.
>> Mhm.
>> Un unless you're going to have him be [ __ ] 97 years old, >> right?
>> Right. And you you can't you can't do it. He could have been a very young boy, >> right?
>> At the at the point like if he was born in like 1937 or 19, you're getting [ __ ] old at this point, right?
>> And he has to be a contemporary >> and he has to be a contemporary of Xavier and all of this. these things have to say that there's either if they do something with the multiverse, they change uh up what Magneto's trauma was, they make it something else. Obviously, like anti-semitism and anti-Jewish uh rhetoric did not end or begin with World War II or the Holocaust. So his feeling of being um persecuted in a world that has historically persecuted this people.
There are other things that you but as far as that tie to his you you can't you can't do that. Yeah. Like in perpetuity forever with the time constraint unless Magnus the magnetism makes him young for a long time then you got an Xavier problem like you know what I mean? I will say last thing I'll say about this though before we move on cuz this was a nice little tangent.
>> The interesting thing is that this was done so well in first class >> the Magneto Xavier relationship to where we see over the course of time Magneto becoming sort of more uh militant and him being sort of you know an extreme version of himself becoming more extreme and all of that stuff um being being radicalized. You can't really do that again. And when you when we get to Xavier, a lot of this will have to do with him. Is Xavier in a wheelchair when we meet him? Is Xavier in his 40s and his 30s when we meet him? In his 50s when when we meet him? Like how fully formed is he is? If he's more fully formed, maybe you don't have Magneto in the movie, right? Maybe that happened.
He's looking back on Magneto. You don't need it, right? But if we're going to go through kind of a deal to where we're learning about Professor Xavier or he's that's this character is like essential to the the the building.
>> But I will also say my last thing on this is like I think even Professor X after Patrick Stewart that because he has such a graits in in culture. He's been in nerd culture especially he's just like this grandfather figure. To me, the Fox version of Professor X was always perfect. Not like always perfect, but was a level of just like this is the grandfather you love where the Professor X from the comics >> is way more of a [ __ ] >> Yeah. He's just he's damn near a villain half the time. And I'm just like, do is it more interesting if you wait on Magneto because it gives Professor X a chance to be more of like an anti-hero and more >> complicated than he ever was in the Fox films. I'll say last last thing.
>> Last last thing. This say just popped in my mind. Every single version of this stuff that has ever gotten it right to me is able to kind of the the original Superman classic, they start you with Lex Luthther formal uh like formal to like uh the formidable um foundational to his world. The original Batman, Tim Burton, the Joker is there. When they miss, it's a lot of times because they miss with the other characters. Now, Batman Begins did not do it. That is very fair. But when you look at the Man of Steel, Zod is a fantastic villain. A villain that makes sense for that world.
>> Mhm.
>> Like way more sense than Luther did for the world that they did.
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> They bring Luther in the second one >> and they [ __ ] miss.
>> And the world didn't make any sense cuz the Lex Luthther of that world kind of is all over the place. Interesting.
He's, >> don't get me wrong, he's interesting. He was, >> you didn't like the jar piss.
>> I thought some of that stuff was interesting, >> but with this Superman, they go, you know what? There's aspects of Superman that are uh like super duper um malleable. You can move him around, whatever. You can [ __ ] with him. But the one thing that's kind of not is that Superman's enemy is Lex Luthther. And Lex Luthther is the avatar for the humanity that has rejected Superman. And if you're going to be able to do that with Magneto and Professor Sinister will be interested.
>> Sinister I know he's not a famous villain in terms of like movies and [ __ ] but like it's the one villain that they haven't done where I'm like >> you could get some [ __ ] off with Sinister.
>> Maybe maybe like Sinister because there's a whole thing Sinister wanting to [ __ ] experiment on them and >> yeah experimenting on Cyclops. Cyclops sinister like this would be a sinister apocalypse thing but Angel into like Archangel. Maybe that could be a deal.
That's kind of a a thing that like that would cook.
>> Can't believe we're having an X-Men combo without Ker. Man, >> you just brought the whole [ __ ] down.
>> All right.
Shout out to my [ __ ] >> We're getting our reactions. Daredevil.
The season finale of Daredevil. Shout out to my [ __ ] bro. Shout out my guy.
We >> once again bring you the Midnight Manifest. Putting you Oh, no. First of all, I got to do a spoiler warning, Steve.
We're getting ready to talk about Daredevil and Born Again. You're listening to a reaction podcast.
The spoilers are coming. All right, Midnight Manifest put you in the know.
Chuck Wagon, take it away. All right, here's your midnight manifest for the season finale of Daredevil: Born Again, season 2, The Southern Cross, directed by Ian B. McDonald written by Dario Scardipain and Jesse Wikato. Matt decides to call Wilson Fist to the stand after being backed into a corner after the arrest and trial of Karen Paige. The blind lawyer takes a big swing to finally take the mayor down by revealing to the world that he is Daredevil. Batt reveal is the last puzzle piece needed to dismantle the Kingpin's rule and disband the anti- vigilante task force.
The city revolts with many Daredevil supporters rushing the courthouse to exact revenge on Fisk. In a fit of rage, the mayor goes on a killing spree, but is stopped by Matt, who tells him their war has to end to save New York City.
And at episodes end, Matt is imprisoned.
Fisk is on a beach alone, grieving the loss of Anessa in New York. Bullseye joins Mr. Charles while Heather dons Muse's mask and Luke Cage is reunited with his daughter and Jessica as the latter reopens alias investigations. And that has been your midnight manifest for Daredevil born again. Start with you, Van. Before we even give our instant reactions, big picture thoughts maybe on this finale in this season because when I was watching it, it did finally feel like the last piece of the puzzle where I'm like, "Oh, you guys almost had to have an entire season to get back to the thing that we loved." It felt the closest to me of like some of the complaints that we've been talking about of just like we want the depth of the of the uh Netflix show. We want all the characters back. And it seemed like finally with this finale, they put all of their like players in a row where I was like, it felt good. I was like, "Okay, like my f I I know all these people. The world is bigger. Jessica Luke is back." I was like, "Oh, okay."
Like I feel safe. This is probably the most comic accurate episode of the show that's ever been aired.
>> And that's both a real strength of this episode and it also could be looked at uh as a detriment of the episode as well.
All and you guys know that in the comic book panels of comic book page a lot of stuff is happening. You know this episode gives you Matt Murdoch and Daredevil. It gives you uh but like when I say Matt Murdoch and Daredevil I mean like >> Matt Murdoch as a hero and Daredevil as a hero. Yeah. You vulnerable Daredevil.
You get contributions from Jessica Jones. Then Luke Cage shows up. The supporting characters all of them get their time to shine in this. They do not leave you thinking, "Why was this character in the season?" Yeah. It seemed like the finale was the the point of the finale was them saying, "Hey, you know what? Everybody's placing this. It had to happen.
>> BB's arc is realized." Now, it doesn't matter. Look, you guys might not like the way it happened. But it was BB's arc was realized. Karen's arc was realized.
Daredevil's arc was realized. Kingpin's arc was realized in a really interesting and almost didn't work for me way. Yeah.
>> But Daredevil's arc was realized. the entire task force.
>> Heather Heather, >> everybody's arc was realized. And then something that a good finale actually does, and this was a good, I don't think great, but good finale to me. Something that a good finale does is when the arcs are realized for a lot of these characters inside of the show, you don't really, it's the first time you understand how far you've come with them.
>> Yeah. Like Heather has been going incrementally further. But by the time this happens to her, >> it kind of makes sense.
>> Yes. But I hated the choice.
>> I know.
I actually like the choice.
>> I I didn't mind it. It was It was kind of like a H. I knew that some people were hated would hate it, but by the time we got to it, they had done the work to show how she could get to that point.
>> Yeah, it was definitely an earned moment. I actually think that like the choices that they made with Heather's character, while risky, I think were actually fairly well-earned and very interesting to know that her psychosis after what her encounters with muses are and her dipping into the Kingpin's orbit has brought her out to this. I think that makes for a very interesting story for what comes in a season 3 of Daredevil. I just thought like so when you think about like what they originally wanted the show to be was like a courtroom drama where Matt not even in the in the Daredevil suit. He's out there doing uh case of the week type stuff, right? And we flash forward all the way to this where >> crux of the the show or the episode is Matt breaking down a case, breaking down Kingpin, breaking down Heather on the on the stand and then we get the Deridova action. Yeah. This is what got this is everything we wanted the show like the show to be in terms of seeing Matt do his thing and seeing Daredevil do his thing. I think to your point like at the end it all came together in a way that like we always like thinking back to Daredevil born again season one that we always wanted to see this this world come to. I thought like as finale probably not like great amazing good but I thought it I thought it was really good. It was it I feel better about the future of the show after this finale than I did after season one.
>> Oh, for sure.
>> You know, so >> so in the show throughout the season, I realized that everybody had their mirror and you and you got all of these moments. They took the framework of Daredevil and Fisk and they used it on a bunch of different characters. They use and and and that like Vanessa's scene with um Vanessa's scene with Karen.
>> Yeah.
>> They are mirrors of one another. Buck and Daniel >> are mirrors of one another. Obviously Daredevil and Fisk are mirrors of one another. But then there are other ones like Vanessa and the idea of the masks, the task force and the people. all of these things that are like like jamming right up against one another and then like who is going to win? And the ambiguous characters, they killed them.
>> Yeah.
>> Like they killed Vanessa, right? They killed uh Daniel, all the ones that were kind of in the ether in between because even though Vanessa had fully bought into the fifth stuff, there still was a vulnerability about that character and the fact that she was the thing that he loved that made her not right for a world that was as binary as this world needed to be towards the end. So, they got rid of her. They got rid of Daniel.
They got rid of all the other characters that were someplace in the middle of the war. And then at the end, not only did the show choose, but it made the audience kind of choose. And that was a reason why to me it ended up working in the end.
>> Did Did you guys want more of like like a Jessica Jones where to me in this episode I was like I'm so excited to see her did just like having Kristen Ritter in the show is the same thing as having Bullseye in the show. It just, you know, these characters, you love these characters, and it immediately just bumps it up to being more interesting.
But I still felt like she didn't get to do anything. Luke didn't get to do anything. It's almost like Kristen Ritter would show up, >> be like, "Hey, here to support you, Matt." And that was it. And they kind of kept talking it away, being like, "Well, you kind of don't have your powers anymore, but you kind of do." And I'm just like it felt like they didn't necessarily have a handle on what they wanted Jessica Jones to do this season.
>> And that that's kind of the mortal sin of like the Marvel table setting of like, okay, well clearly season one didn't work out as well as we did. What can we do to ensure that people really want to lock in for this even if we don't think that the story is going to execute as well as we do? putting in Jessica Jones pretty good to get your attention as well, but like again doesn't have that much utility in a season like >> what did she like what did she accomplish this season?
>> Yeah, like plotwise not much. Like >> they destroyed the all the weapons that they had in in the >> How was she tied to that really?
>> I don't really know. I got to be honest with you.
>> Luke even like I'm like she's like, "Yeah, Luke is working with Mr. Charles overseas." And I'm like, >> "Doing what though?" Why?
>> And I'm sure that that can be addressed in season 3, but obviously that was too big for this season in general.
>> I know they mentioned it, but yeah, I don't think she was deployed all that like all that well. I think like I mean there were spots I think like that episode where she showed up and they do destroy the factory like that makes a lot of sense, but then like to your point they keep making excuses for her to come back and it's kind of flimsy and it's kind of like what's like what's the the entire reason? I think if you put a character like that in the show cuz they even waited till late. It was like what episode like what six when she right >> you that's a character that comes in like halfway at the end of episode uh four and is like like you know like he's about to about to die some comes in like kind of Dave sex machina and then stays is just like there for the rest of the season. It would have been made more sense if she was just like a cameo for a episode to help him out and be like, "Hey, I'm around."
>> Or they're like legitimately like for the rest of the season, not just like, "All right, come episode 6, I'm like, "Peace." And uh episode 7 and then I'm back for episode 8 because the power of friendship. It's a It's a little weird, but like you said, it was great to see her.
>> Yeah. I don't I didn't mind it as much just because I always wanted there to be I think for me just personally I always wanted there to be this version of the MCU that they were able to figure out in the movies but never quite in the television shows in the movies you're around there and the guys pop in. It's in New York like you know there's [ __ ] Iron Man's there. Spider-Man's trying to figure it out.
>> Would love to know what Spider-Man was doing when that when city hall was getting stormed.
>> He's very sad. Yeah. So he's jumping off. Very sad. Uh, but in this one, she pops in. You get a little bit, you get a catch-up with her. This is a catch-up.
>> Then she pops out.
>> They always are going to nerf her.
>> She's already nerfed. She can't fly.
There's a whole bunch of things that This is a TV Jessica Jones.
>> So, what everything that you guys are saying is correct. It just didn't stick out like a sore thumb to me. Sure.
>> Because just having her there to me was enough.
>> Yeah. was. So, this is where we end in the finale is where a lot of my Daredevil fandom started in the Brian Michael Bendis, Ed Brew Baker era. It's obvious that in the third season, they're going I think it the arc that Brewbaker did was called like Devil in a Cell where like Matt gets arrested and there's this big New York trial. Um, and I won't spoil any of that, but what I thought was interesting is Brian Michael Bendis and Ed Brew Baker at that time in Marvel comics in the 2000s are getting inspired by The Sopranos, Oz, The Wire. So, you see comic books, they call it in like comic book history like a like decompressed storytelling. It becomes more like a TV show. And I think what was interesting about this episode was I was feeling like the limitations of that where I'm like, "Oh, this is becoming a more serious show that is looking at like the legal apparatus of New York and all of these things, but it still can't shake off the hookiness and the almost brighter nature of Born Again season 1 where it was like even some of the fighting in the courthouse and how Wilson Fist just starts killing protesters. It did that part did get a little comicbooky where I'm just like I don't know if you guys set the table enough for this to be as monumental and serious as it needs to be. Well, the shows have different edicts. The Netflix show and the Disney show, they have different edicts.
>> The Netflix show existed on Netflix um at a time where the shows that were coming on Netflix, Orange is New Black, House of Cars and all of that stuff.
That show was basically saying to the audience uh or had to say, "Hey, if this show can't be dark enough and serious enough in tone, then it can't exist in the Netflix situation. It can't exist there. It has to be dark enough and serious in tone for people to uh with all of the other stuff that's on Netflix to watch this and be like, uh, this is grounded enough for it to make sense to us." And so that show very was very grounded.
>> Yeah.
>> Um there was no Daredevil, just brilliant story choices all over. There was no Daredevil to the very end. And by the time you saw him, the first time you saw Daredevil, it was kind of like, oh, like that show actually changed when he became stopped being the devil as hell of Hell's Kitchen became Daredevil. Cuz it almost was like in that world, him flying around with his [ __ ] it almost didn't work. That fight with between him and Kingpin at the end of it, it almost was like, uh, does this work in the world that we've set up? It felt a little too comic booky. This show has the exact opposite thing to do.
>> It has to be slightly light enough, >> slightly cheery enough, slightly comic booky enough to exist in the Disney Plus MCU world that it is a part of. Now, they are like diametrically opposed in the thing that they have to do. One of them had to be in this world uh that was super whatever. It had to be grounded enough. It had to be dark enough. It had to be bleak enough. It had to be serious enough. This one is all of those things that the first show was, but it has to have that touch of comicbookiness to it, that touch of lightness to it, that touch of MCUess to it that doesn't feel like it's existing in another world.
They cannot endor this show because that doesn't work in the MCU. And so that to me tonally was always what they were trying to figure out, particularly in this second season. And I really truly believe that the last three, four episodes here are the best you can do with it.
>> You can you can get tighter and stuff and I think that they will, >> but they they've kind of gotten to the point to where this is what the show will be.
>> Yeah. And it feels on track, I think, is the most important thing. like everything feels where it should be as far as the tone of the show, the pacing of the show, uh especially like the interdynamics between each of these characters. I liked where at least the the players that are left on the board have ended up and the things that are left over for a season 3 to begin. I think that that's pretty much exactly where I would like to see these things.
And boy oh boy, isn't it convenient that Matt's in prison? And where do we think Brand New Day is gonna be?
>> Ah, man. They're not playing.
>> We're fighting the hand.
>> They're not putting him in the movie, man. Like, >> well, you say Spider-Man about to break out Matt.
>> You're not doing that, man. Come on.
Let's be real.
>> What do we think?
>> Let's be for real, man.
>> You don't think so? If I was Matt, I would >> Matt is in prison. You're fighting the hand. The Punishers in it. Let's be real, >> [ __ ] Where was you? [ __ ] Kingpin was mayor.
Where was you, Spidey? You know, this is this is all true, but we do kind of got to leave this alone. We know where he at. He's in the movies and this nigga's on TV.
>> Like, you know, we come on, man. Like, we got in the movies.
>> But this is the reason why none of this [ __ ] works. None of this [ __ ] works because partly because, you know, it's right issues.
>> Well, I have to ask this brings up an important moment cuz like is the superhero game like the rap game in the MCU? Like who's the actual king of New York? Is like Spider-Man a hove and he's just like I don't really got time for little little rapper problems Daredevil.
I might get on a feature or do you think in this world Daredevil is over him now?
Cuz nobody's in the street. Like you know what I think? I think it's too many villains, man. I don't think they got the time. I think when I think about the villains, everybody got like nine villains.
>> Yeah. But like the battle of New York, the battle of New York seems like an existential thing where like the mayor is calling for, you know, vigilantes to be killed in the street.
>> You got to think about if you Spider-Man, right? Yeah. Keeping out here like, "Well, we should kill our vigil vigilantes." But at the other hand, Zenaia was the love of my life and I got to make her remember me. You got to have priorities. You understand what I'm saying? Sure.
>> Spider-Man might be rounding up people to send them back to his world. Who knows? He always got some kind of [ __ ] plucky ass problem that he dealing with.
>> Why do you like this?
>> Like it. Matt's coming home.
>> What did you guys think about the >> uh sort of Tony Stark moment that happened in the courtroom where Matt reveals that he's Daredevil to everybody?
>> No, that was that was I like that. That had a lot of to me had all the sauce, man, because you can you can see it loading. You can see it coming up.
You're saying Daredevil was the only person on that boat. Yes, sir. KP's like, "All right, man. Like, if you if this how you want to do it, go go crazy." And he does. And everybody like I thought that moment was great. I loved It is a narratively it makes sense. I think Charlie Cox played it perfectly.
There was a moment where I was like this is some [ __ ] that works in the comic books and it's supposed to translate TV show. You're like court don't work like >> I MEAN like that like I'm Daredevil. I'm like damn that was the best strategy we had on tap.
That was the best strategy we could like streets need you like what Karen you got to you got to take the charge like you got Karen I'm sorry take the charge why would Gary take the charge >> the city the city needs Daredevil more than anything >> he not go he'll be all right he tough he tough he be >> you're telling me just strategically with everything going on >> the whole >> the streets don't need Daredevil >> the whole I mean if kingpins out then out of here you could probably be like all right you know I go to court maybe you know even if make bail. If I don't get bail, my homie Jessica Jones got me.
I'm straight. Spider-Man out there somewhere, right? They got me. I'm good.
You hack. His whole thing is taking King Ben down. He not going to kill him.
>> No.
>> Right. So, what what else can you do?
Hey guys, I was there. It's me. I'm Daredevil. Uh everything that uh that guy said who who died, I can verify. If you going to send me to prison, send him to uh >> a way to get rid of these secret identities because if there's anything that has not aged with the the secret identity is out >> annoying. It's only two [ __ ] holding on to that bad.
>> What's your Instagram handle at this point?
>> You know, the secret identity Spider-Man holding on to it.
>> Spider-Man could be a whole movie about it. I mean, there was, but at the same time, there was a whole movie where he didn't have it anymore. So, they flirted with it. They had to do a [ __ ] magic trick to everybody in the entire world for Spider-Man to get his secret identity. identity thing. It's tough to do now. It's a tough [ __ ] thing.
>> So, they wanted to kind of get that out of Daredevil. I am interested in how that goes. I thought the moment really worked.
>> I thought the moment worked because of the power of the character of Matt Murdoch. They were good by not giving us lawyer Matt Murdoch throughout the whole season. By the time we got him, I thought it was really impactful.
>> Do would you guys be convinced if you were in the MCU world cuz they like, "How's a blind man Daredevil?" He goes bop and he catches it. All right. Would that would that moment where you like definitely dared?
>> Would have done something a little cooler.
>> Yeah. I like do a back flip. You know what I'm saying?
>> I'd have done a flip and then caught it.
>> He's shot in the leg.
>> He's shot in the leg.
>> He's shot in the leg.
>> You could do a I feel like a blind nothing about what y'all GIVE A [ __ ] ABOUT. I WANT the [ __ ] to flip. HE SHOT IN THE LEG. HE THREW THE THING. What is good enough for you guys? He threw the thing. It bounced OFF THREE [ __ ] WALLS AND HE CAUGHT THE [ __ ] HE BLIND.
>> What the [ __ ] I FEEL LIKE A BLIND PERSON. DAREDEVIL, BRO. SHOW ME SOME DAREDEVIL.
>> I can honestly I would have loved it if the judge saw that and they were like, >> "Okay, but like anything else."
>> I feel like a blind person can do a backflip. Like it's >> a come on.
>> Like I don't like I don't understand the the rationale. But you can >> but >> blind people can do back flips.
>> So then then why do you like do a back flip?
>> Because to do a regular to do a Chris Brown backflip and then to do a superhero back flip.
>> No, wait. What? No. No. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
>> I love that we're the judges if this man.
>> Wait, wait. No. Go [ __ ] yourself. Either visually impaired people can do backfl.
>> This is where the [ __ ] said you guys just said, hold on.
>> Jamie is one. You guys had just said that it's more impressive to show that he's Daredevil to do a back flip >> like a super. I'm sorry I didn't three-point landing. Hey, if you're a ninja, I want you to do some ninja [ __ ] >> HE THREW THE THING OFF of the wall.
>> Just proved that he was Bullseye.
>> He legitimately did something that only Daredevil could do besides maybe Bullseye. And you just want him to do something that anybody from Cir to So, >> what fair?
>> It just wasn't that cool to me. I was like, "All right, >> Jesus Christ."
>> Um, but I thought it was a cool moment.
Uh, it was cool to see our old girl from the wire there, too.
>> Oh, as a judge. Yeah, >> it took a second, but I finally I finally cocked it.
>> She got the perfect like y'all got me [ __ ] up face. Like, come on.
>> Question for Vanessa's character. Not Vanessa's character. What's the uh I might have McDuffy. No, no, no. The uh She became Muse. What's her name?
>> Heather. Heather.
>> Heather's character. Question for Heather's character. I might have said Vanessa early when I met Heather. So, if that happened because Quest for When did she learn how to hit people in the throat?
I mean, it's a pretty easy spot to get people [ __ ] up. Maybe maybe because this is also one of Matt's moves. Any single time Matt's on a date, he's just like, "Let me show you some martial art." She might have like learned he might have taught her how to hit people in the throat >> like here. Boom. Cuz she hit that [ __ ] in the throat like Denzel when he got game. Remember that joke? You ever see when somebody hit I wonder why why don't people get hit in the throat more?
>> Cuz you can like cave in your I understand that. But what I'm saying is that I see fights all the time, but what I don't see is quick shots to the throat.
>> I think there's this unwritten rule of like [ __ ] you don't hit. Like don't punch him in the >> p you instead of like, you know, battery now it's it's a murder charge. I don't think that's what you want to do.
>> Yeah.
>> So >> I think she think that people are >> way too slow for that [ __ ] >> That's the reason why it doesn't happen.
The reason why it doesn't happen is because hitting somebody dead in the throat precisely with that type of strike so fast that they can do nothing but grab their throat is actually really hard to do. And the fact that she did that [ __ ] like she was a godamn Navy Seal was hilarious to me. You girls talk she boom right in THE THROAT LIKE >> I MEAN I WOULD IMAGINE THAT SOMEBODY that a lives in New York City and B had maybe the bit of the trauma that came from being taken a class flipping. I haven't heard that in a long time.
>> Quarter foot. That's a quarter foot. It is definitely a quarter. YOU JUST HIT SOMEBODY IN THE CAR. SHE WAS LIKE, SHE WAS LIKE, >> SHE HIT HIM DEAD IN the throat like she was [ __ ] >> and he's a pissy ass lawyer. He can >> Let's think about it. She went through a traumatic experience. A man came into her office and tried to kill her. You don't think maybe she took some self-defense classes or something?
>> This is the essence of the quarter flip.
>> It was in there.
>> Hold on. Wait. But you guys understand we haven't said that her character. If you guys do not know, if you guys do not know where quarter flipping is, we will give you what's called a midnight refresher.
>> In the show Hawkeye, Kate Bishop was training with uh with a libo salad in the world.
>> She was training uh with the actual Hawkeye, which is don't do that. Come on. Actual Hawkeye. Don't do that. The original Have some respect. Have some respect.
He's the actual Hawkeye.
And that's okay.
>> Wait, whoa. Are you Are we calling uh Chris Evans the actual Captain America?
>> What you mean? Yeah. Yeah, he's the actual Captain America. Captain America.
Captain America is a mantle. I've said this before. You guys always Oh, damn.
Man, man. I've said this before. Mantle making is very hard. There's only a couple of different places where a a mantle really exists and it can be transferred to other characters. Green Lantern, Flash, >> Green Lantern, Flashaker. Maybe though, >> maybe I would say Flash is maybe the best one. Green Lantern is also a good one. Glant is a good one. But when you think about Green Lantern, they always take you back to Hal Jordan. When you think about the Flash, they always take you back to Barry Allen.
>> No, most most people are like, "Who's your Flash?" There are more Wally West fans out there than there are Barry Allen.
>> Robin actually probably would have been the best mantle maker. I I still think Robin is [ __ ] Dick Grace.
>> That is true.
>> But but it's a mantle that has like it's a real What are the Before we move on, what are the best mantles? The most like the mantle means more than the character. Captain America. I'm sorry guys.
>> That's bigger than you.
>> That's that's Steve Rogers.
>> Yeah.
>> Like you know what I mean? Like that's Steve Rogers.
>> Man, you guys talking about a Mantal War?
>> We did man. Didn't we do Mantal War? We did Mantal Wars. I mean, at this point, Spider-Man is a mantle, even though >> the world isn't hard to tell.
>> No, you can say it. Say it. Say it.
>> No, Peter Parker is the real Spider-Man.
>> I Okay, I would say I would say this though.
>> We'll come back to quarter flipping.
This is a midnight tangent. I would say this though that Miles Morales at least proves that Spider-Man could one day, >> anyone can wear the mask.
>> It could one day be a mantle that wasn't just like that connected to people. They be treating him like Spider Boy a lot of time. They do.
>> They do. So while I say that, so we'll come back to that question. Quarter flipping is the fact that Kate Bishop was learning how to flip a quarter into >> turn off a TV to turn off a TV. And she learned basically in like one night, like hours something that Clinton Barton had been doing for his entire she learned very quickly. And they didn't really show her going through all of the >> He wanted trial and error. did one six hours a montage by the way. It was they did a montage.
>> I would say this is like a half quarter flip cuz I I was like when did she learn karate?
>> She hit that [ __ ] in the throat and that [ __ ] went I mean this dead she them dead in the throat even he got gang when Denzel hits the [ __ ] in the throat. Right. Right. Right.
>> Why is it expected that he could do that?
>> Because he had been locked up for like 10 years. So you probably learn how to hit people in the throat. Okay. Now before we move back everyone, what are the most This is basically See, Jeremy, this is how I look out for you cuz you know >> clip farming.
>> I'm clip farming. Christing >> prop clipping is what Tim P called it one time. That [ __ ] idiot. Um, so what are the best mantles? Meaning like the mantle is bigger than the character.
Batman out. They've tried the mantle.
Make Batman several times. Won't work.
This is an odd one because you can't actually like pass it on, but like I feel like James Bond is basically this thing that like >> somebody makes into their own when the character becomes something.
>> That's legitimately the worst possible example you could give >> because it doesn't get past of the guy.
>> 007 would be the mantle. Could somebody else be 007 and not be James Bond? The answer would probably be no. We not [ __ ] with that.
>> We not doing that.
>> Flash is number one. You can pass the Flash mantle on. You can you can pass Green Lantern on pass Green Lantern onion. I agree. Howal Jordan is usually the one. But if we're if we're thinking about some of the biggest representations of Green Lantern, whether it's the animated series, whether it's Lanterns coming out, a lot of times they'd be leading with John Stewart. That also happens because DC don't got no Black Heroes. So it's like, who do we got? And they like, hey, put John Stewart in there. Sorry, Hal. Who else? I think Spider-Man is at this point >> a good mantle.
>> A good mantle. Miles Morales is probably But now that I think about it, as much as we say they tried it with Batman, if we talking about Oh, you got Batman Beyond.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> You got [ __ ] Dick Grayson was Batman for a while. He was like, man, they had Azrael as Batman for a while. My thing is >> other people can be Batman, but Batman is Bruce Wayne. Like I'll ask you guys this. Black Panther Black Panther.
>> Yeah, man. Black Panther's Tala. They come on. Yeah.
>> Could you even name >> James Bond as the mantle is interesting?
>> What do you mean?
>> No, I still like a personable perspective of like actor.
>> I agree with you more than like I agree with you more than I understand what you were trying to say.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm just going to Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Damn. There's not that many successful characters.
>> There's not they because the characters are just so important.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Like you can take Steve Rogers and then make him into nomad or do something else like whatever but all that's going to do is make people more interested in Steve Rogers >> than anyone else. These car these mantels were really formed around these characters. The reason why it is difficult to make somebody else Batman besides Bruce Wayne is because Bruce Wayne created Batman.
>> Yeah.
>> So like Batman emanates from Bruce Wayne. Like Bruce Wayne it it's it's his experience made Batman. Like Peter Parker's experience made Spider-Man. So like we could tell the story of Miles Morales and that's [ __ ] awesome. And I think Miles Morales is Miles Morales is flirting with being as popular as Peter Parker.
>> I think he's already more interesting than Peter Parker.
>> Interesting.
>> Really?
>> I at this point do think that they don't know what's happened with Peter Parker. I think in the comics and in the movies and everything is like we've so thoroughly exhausted every single Peter Parker story it's now a generational war where someone was like I want my Peter married. No, I want him to be [ __ ] poor forever. No, I want my like there's we want Spider-Man to so be so many different things. Miles Morales actually just gets to be Miles Morales. We get to tell Miles Morales Spider-Man stories instead in instead of always litigating.
Think about No Way Home. It's like Tobey Magcguire my Spider-Man. No, Tom Holland is M. Like they all Peter Parker, Miles Morales.
>> If we being real, the last lever they need to pull in this [ __ ] is just bringing in Miles Mor like that's the actual like >> that's actually doing something >> once you bring him into live action.
>> And critical drinker can [ __ ] lose their [ __ ] >> Those two [ __ ] guys.
>> I [ __ ] hate those guys, man.
>> The discourse could discourse around that.
>> I don't want that. That's the last thing I want to >> I hate those guys. I hate I I hate the idea that every single thing that involves a different perspective on one of these characters or one of these worlds is somehow woke or against comic.
I'm just that in and of itself. There's no there's nothing worse than a racist comic book fan.
>> Yeah. Let those people show their ass though.
>> Like it's it's true. It's true. But so then they're none. I mean, uh, Black Widow, I mean, I think I mean, kind of works, but like you >> I mean, Florence Pew to me is a better Black Widow than Scarlet was, >> but she gets more to do.
>> Yeah, >> she gets more to do. It was a different time. Scarlet was she was busting down the door, so Florence Pew could just be like, "Damn, this is my show now."
>> Yeah. Also, I also think the the less famous the actual character is, the easier the man.
>> So, Falcon, >> I mean, anybody can be. They made >> They said it. They did it.
>> They made out.
>> All right, before we wrap up on Daredevil, >> let's do a quick like what works about where the heroes ended up. I think Luke Cage and Jessica Jones works.
>> Yes.
>> Alias Investigations. I'm already plugged in. I already want to see it.
>> Wilson and Heather was one that I was left a little wanting. I was >> Heather worked for me. I thought it was interesting. I actually don't know if it works. Depends on what they do. I thought it was interesting though to see where our characters are going to go.
Muse to me didn't work. Why are we doing lady muse now?
>> Well, I mean, I think this Muse could work better than the last Muse. Maybe they're doing >> We have a lot more context as to why this Muse work.
>> Yeah, we have more more music in here.
More music. We're musing over things. Uh the fifth stuff is they didn't know what to do with him, dog.
>> They took him. They He took the deal. He took the deal.
>> I know, but it's like the the next season is going to be I think the next season needs to give us a quick fix uh fix.
>> But what I didn't understand is I'm like they're like, "Yeah, take the deal.
Wilson. I'm like, this man just murdered like 20 people.
>> 20 people in front of >> kill the doctor hospital. Try to kill the try to kill the governor.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I'm like it does st cuz there's just like Matt's getting arrested for being daredevil and the mayor of New York is ripping humans in half >> and he just gets to be on a beach somewhere.
>> What? as opposed to putting I mean you gonna put him in jail again and then and then why he gonna sit there make Matt mad.
>> Like the crazy thing about that is that we know and this is why that's unrealistic. We know that in real life the powerful men that commit all the worst crimes always get sentenced to jail. And >> that's Yeah, you know what? You're right.
>> But we also know we know that they never end up on an island with other powerful men. Oh Jesus Christ.
>> That's what Fisk is. For sure.
>> Fisk is definitely Fisk is in He's on the play logs for sure.
>> I would hope Fisk is for sure. You guys crazy.
>> If we have another insurrection, I would hope if we have video proof >> that he was ripping just ripping kids RIPPING PEOPLE. WE'D BE LIKE, "ALL RIGHT, MAN." Like snapping necks, we'd be like, "Hey, you know what? throw people taking people throwing them at walls breaking their back like that.
>> Wait, what did they do? Did they do a >> No.
>> Did what?
>> Did they do a uh is this show a pro insurrection show? This finale.
>> What? You thought that was like a January 6th thing that they were doing?
>> I mean, it definitely like you storm in the courthouse.
>> Kind of does explain it. It >> It kind of like >> a little bit.
I think I think it occurred. Did you Why pros? No. No. Not pro intrur.
It would have to be [ __ ] pro because I didn't read it that way.
>> [ __ ] The people ran into the city hall against the leader. Got the leader out. If you're looking at it, it would almost have to be pro-ins insurrection because Matt says them to be better.
>> We need to be better. We can be better.
And that to me, that's why I didn't like that it was alluding to the insurrection because what it is saying is the only way forward is great.
>> And I'm just like, hey, that don't work with [ __ ] murderers and pedophiles.
>> Yeah, that don't work. At the same time though, they were successful as insurrectionists. Well, a lot of them.
>> I mean, >> THEY WERE THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL as insurrectionists to me.
>> I mean, the the the people that turned out to be pancakes at the hand of this would say otherwise >> on an island right now and no one got any justice or restitution.
>> Yeah. But they if my homie got like his head smashed by Kingpin and they're like, "Hey, what happened to him?" Uh, he out there and >> he took a deal.
>> Yeah, he took a deal.
But they still got him. They he they didn't get Fisk, >> but they still got him out of New York.
They arrested power away from him. They deposed their leader by running the >> underlying politics, which I always feel like >> maybe it's more of a French Revolution thing.
>> No ma'am, >> maybe it's more of a Are we right in calling this? Did they have anybody?
>> Well, I mean, >> I don't think it's a crazy cop. No, no, no. I don't think we're I don't think >> No. I When I When they were running up the steps, I'm just like Oh, >> but that means just like it's obvious, >> but it still was there was a moment where I'm like, why are the heroes always like we better than this [ __ ] No, WE'RE NOT. LIKE, NO BETTER THAN THIS. OBVIOUS.
>> They should have killed Kingpin if we're being real, >> man. I don't should kill Kingpin.
>> But you can't do that though. You can't kill the guys. You can I think in a superhero I think in a superhero storytelling I'll tell you guys. So, I think we've talked about this, but I'll tell you guys why you can't kill the people >> in a super like I feel like in a if you're an action movie and everybody's humans. Yeah. In a superhero movie when you like have powers and stuff, you can't you can't do that because then it looks like if Superman was out there killing people, right, willy-nilly, then he's just an overlord. Then he's just like a guy like live bullseye and like a >> I think we probably talked about this before. It was either on this podcast or another podcast. The reason why you can't kill the people is because of what it means to All right. So, like, can we give credit to Steve's forefathers real quick?
>> Oh. Uh, what?
>> Steve's forefathers.
>> Okay.
>> All right. So, they led a revolution.
>> Yeah.
>> And in this, this is going to be the most pro America [ __ ] thing that you've ever heard me say. They led a revolution. They read led a revolution and they deposed and overthrew the people that were lording over them.
>> But I will give them credit as they were raping uh pillaging, destroying black lives and put I give them credit for something, indigenous lives, of course.
>> Um I give them credit for something.
They realized that for what they did all it is for to be lasting that it couldn't be about them. They couldn't be the ones that decided who was good or bad because if they did that then the ideals and the structure and the country itself it died with them.
>> That once they were gone maybe you didn't have somebody as uh genius as Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin or someone that could you know uh make government as well as Madison or whatever. Maybe you didn't have guys like that. So what you needed was something that was bigger than them.
something that was their way of looking at it and that's the constitution.
>> The constitution is something that is ever changing and adapting and it's it should be and it's bigger than them.
It's over them. This thing is it's not about us. We are a rule not of men. We have the rule of law which is why somebody trying to subvert that is such a big deal.
>> Batman not killing is his constitution.
>> Yeah. That's the thing that he submits to that makes that makes hit that that he's under he's under an ideal Superman's vision and version of the world where he doesn't kill Lex Luthther doesn't kill these people that's their constitution that's the thing that they are bound to that keeps them eternally on the right side of things cuz if they don't two things will h happen number one the next Batman is maybe more bruised than them like they don't have anything to really teach people and number two, they're always sort of moving the lines about what they think is right. There's nothing that governs them >> that that is bigger than them. And so what I used to think the easiest thing to do is to take the Joker out. And look, maybe you should take the Joker out, but if you take the Joker out, you take Kingpin out, you start taking these people out, then you got to kind of ask yourself, you're making the rules, like Jomy said, of who lives and who dies.
And as corny as this is, and it is corny, you now are the Joker.
And and so and and and and and that and that, >> but you know better than anyone, especially if we go back to the the founding of American and everything, cuz I agree with you in terms of like it's important making an idea, an ideal that will outlive you. But baked into the laws, baked into the structure is we never want what we did to our rulers overthrowing them to happen to us. So you make rules and you make laws that protect a certain type of white male landowner and you're like, "Hey, no, we all got rights, free rights. He is here. We got more rights than you do." So when you try to attach it to like Daredevil and Trump and Insurrection a lot of where I think a lot of these shows even the boys fail is it saying like but we're better than them. We have to rise above and I'm like sometimes there's no rising above genocide. There's no rising above pedophilia. Like there's no no people are evil and you got to take them out.
LIKE LIKE I KNOW THAT'S RIGHT BUT LIKE >> well well so and let me tell you another reason why I disagree. Like you know it would have been crazy if you could have taken for all the problems that America has and those problems are will be infinite and those problems some of them to me are insurmountable. Boy, I tell you what, if you could I would have given anything to go from 1776 to 2008 and have all of those guys watch Barack Obama like early 2009 born in all them [ __ ] would have been like, "Are we sure that we did the right thing here?" You guys see, >> by the way, this is what Thomas Jefferson would have been like, "That guy looks just LIKE MY SON."
BUT I HAD I know a couple of those children like like really. So what I'm saying >> I guess what happened literally the next day after 2008 we had a bunch of people in this country be like we are going to make them pay.
>> I know I know but but under but understand what I'm saying though. But understand what I'm saying though. The only thing, not the only thing, but one of the things that gets us to that point is when we are arguing over uh like America and interesting superhero quote.
When we're arguing over America, we're actually arguing over the version of the way things should be right >> now. Some of these things are human rights. And I don't think it takes a genius. Thomas Jefferson, these guys were a genius. I don't think it takes a genius to uh >> to point out some of these things. Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. I mean, you're born with that, right? But but the the reason why it was so profound is because they said it. It's because they went, "Hey, by the way, you you shouldn't have to earn humanity.
You're born with that. So, you can't come and tax me and do all of this stuff to me without me having to say in it. I was born, not you don't give me my rights. God, the universe, nature, whatever, they give me the rights. Now, here's this document that is supposed to permanently undergard and protect these rights that gets you a hundred years from then with a bunch of people saying, "Hey, what about us? What about women?
What about black people? What about queer people? What about all of these people?" If you guys are saying that this thing is the thing that guarantees us this, it's imbued by God and strengthened and fortified by this document, then we have to be a part of that too. If we if we take this and transition really quickly to The Boys, because I think what's interesting is like The Boys and Daredevil are almost litigating the same thing. They're both trying to be shows that are showing us what it means to be alive in this time.
And I actually thought this episode of The Boys, even if I didn't like all of it, the conversation that he had that uh Homelander has with the older gentleman where he's just like, "This happens to all of us. You want to be God. You're getting to a point in your life where you're aging and you don't want to be put out to pasture. You want to think of yourself as the god. You wanna you want immortality. You can't let go. And to me, it mirrors Daredevil in the same way where like Matt's looking at Fisk and being like to save New York, this place that we both supposedly love, we need to let go. Like a lot of what we keep talking about in politics and younger generation is like what does it mean for like the baby boomer generation to be like we've had enough enough wealth enough power we need to pass it on. And I was just like, it's funny seeing both of these shows that have aging actors, aging showrunners, aging superheroes litigating what does it mean to really save New York, the world, and just like ourselves, America.
I thought in this episode of Boys in regards to your question, I think I the the thing that sticks out for me is the conversation at the end with with Homelander and Soulja Boy, right?
Because Soulja Boy the entire time has been like actually I hate this guy. He's supposed to be my son. He's supposed to my legacy. Like I've completely like messed this whole thing up.
But there's one thing that connects those two those two people together and that's Stormfoot uh Clara right despite all uh you know her her issues uh they for whatever reason have both connected with that character and in a moment that surprises literally every single person in the show including Sister Sage is supposed to be able to see everything he goes I hate your guts hate everything about you but she likes you here you We talk about like white people helping white people. That >> was that supposed to be like white supremacy coded where I took that as you could take it two ways. Sister Sage had a blind spot cuz she could not calculate that Soldier Boy's love for Stormfront would she wasn't calculating that in her in her decision. But the other thing I don't think that she was calculating was that for Soulja Boy, someone who was in love with Stormfront, of course he would see his son and be like, even if I don't necessarily believe you are a god, I believe that you are the future of humanity, the apex of where we need to go, which I thought was like very, even though I think all the backdoor pilot [ __ ] for Soulja Boy is starting to piss me off, still that central relationship between Homelander and Soulja Boy I find fascinating.
>> It really, really, really works. And it's a again it's a shame that it's going to be ending very soon, but I'm very fascinated as to how quickly they can truncate that knowing that what's what would likely be coming at the end of this season is going to be left out on the shelf for that. I think that the broader this is kind of like what like how I felt after Alien Earth where like the ex the exploration of these ideas in the boys simply the conversation of what the show gets us to talk about I feel like is better executed and a lot more important than how the show executes it itself.
>> I totally disagree.
>> You don't you don't think so?
I think >> I think the show is good, but I think the show is I think the show sometimes >> is so great. I just wish we could luxur like luxury in those moments and not constantly have like did I need like an older like did I need an old man soup with stretchy powers fighting Butcher with his balls? No. That that's a moment where I'm like >> that was what >> and that's away from like actually really interesting parts of the show.
I'm like, "Oh, but like you guys are getting at stuff in the final season, but you can't get out of your own."
>> He gets out of his own way.
>> They I will say they didn't stay with that as long as I I was very I was afraid that they were going to stay with that too long. They got out of it pretty quickly, but that was whack. I didn't really need that.
>> I mean, the guy already had the stretchy dick. Why you need It's like So, but but look, I think both of you guys are making fantastic points. I'll say this.
Sage is a computer.
>> Yeah.
>> And in a way, her character to me this year almost represents AI and some of the things that AI gets wrong.
>> Okay.
>> Like the way that Sage looks at stuff, she looks at stuff in a synthetic way, probability, what should make sense.
>> Like Claude, who's my friend, >> um God >> Claude is an LLM that is predictive. You you put enough into Claude and Claude then tells you based upon all of the information and in the world what your response is going to be. Claude just doesn't know what it's like to see your child.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't know what it's like to see your child. All I know is that I've known people that uh have learned of children, who have missed children, who have like come to children after years and their lives have been completely changed.
Right? I just know I know of people who thought they were fathers and it turned out that they really weren't. I know of people who didn't know and it turned out that they really was. And like there is something fundamental to humanity that we all kind of know is inexplicable. So you can't and that means you can put people in systems to make them predictable.
>> Yeah.
>> But that is the worst thing. How can I say this? I say this better. I was at a dinner one time with this guy and this guy was talking about uh the fact that people are really really predictable.
Like it was at this dinner. It was really interesting conversation. This guy was like a tech guy. He was talking about people are really in like really predictable. And I was like the reason why you think people are so predictable is because you made them eat the same food. You made them go to the same school. make them live in all the same neighborhoods, the same environment.
Same. So, you put them in a system that makes them predictable. Yeah. Human beings are endlessly curious and there's like we we we've proven that like they're unique, right?
>> That is kind of what is being thrown around in that scene. She is a computer.
She's used to systems dictating the way people act. So, she is the system. She thinks if I do enough stuff, they'll react the way I know that they will and the way that I want them to.
>> But you just can't predict what you going to do when you see your son.
>> Yeah.
>> You can't predict how you going to feel.
Is Homelander's immortality your immortality. Is Homelander you >> like, can you like, you know what? You just don't know how you going to feel.
Also, there's a white supremacy thing in there.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Like like like you like you said, like there's a thing to where look, they're not trying to [ __ ] with you. They would rather bust it up between themselves.
Even if they don't like each other that much, even if there's something that's fundamental that comes between them, they would rather be like reign in hell than serve in any heaven that you would be a part of. And she missed it. She missed it cuz she is Claude. She is uh chat. She is all of this. And you know, like she just can't quite yet like do the bo the Vagner the fifth symphony.
She can't do that yet. like she can't like she she don't know how to do that yet. So when that scene happened, I thought that was a [ __ ] awesome scene cuz we don't even really know. We have an inkling >> Yeah.
>> of why he did that. But he just gave away the whole store and we don't quite know yet. Right. I thought that was really dope. I thought to your point, >> this episode was exactly what the boys does right and then sometimes exactly what the boys does wrong.
>> Yeah. Like cuz I own it.
>> I don't need >> There were so many good parts of it where I was wondering in this final season, >> what would the more radical thing for the boys >> to actually like linger on these moments and actually spend cuz >> they got to give you bombsite for vaude rising and all of that stuff like they they had they they trying to do a lot.
>> That is the major frustration when it comes to the final season of this show.
>> It was a good episode. It was a good episode, but like I feel like this show forgets the fact that it's earned the right to take itself seriously >> after these many season.
>> Great point.
>> Like it feels like it's almost afraid of being too serious with these characters and with these moments >> to undercut it sometimes with a dick joke or something like that. Yeah, >> it really has earned the right to be a lot more dramatic and a lot more serious knowing that it's coming to the end of something and we don't need all of those things that kind of, you know, take the legs out for us.
>> The scene between Godfather and Starlight.
>> Oddly good.
>> Yeah.
>> Just with him being like a false fake prophet that used to be not one.
>> Yeah.
>> Just oddly good. Oddly good scene. Mo, I think that Mother Mother Milk's arc is interesting, but it doesn't to me they're not giving it enough time, which is like I do think it's interesting that like everyone he meets from his pre past or present are like this doesn't seem like you. You're acting like Butcher.
You're about to commit like a genocide, kill millions of people. Why? But because there's so many jokes and stuff happening, we're not like getting to spend time on like, oh, the two hearts of this show, Huey and Mother's Milk, aren't actually getting enough screen time and narrative like to really bring home what is the difference between them and Butcher.
>> Got to set up that Vault Rising spin-off, brother. You know, >> by the way, some of that Bombsite, who is he? Is he supposed to be like Cannonball?
>> Yeah. Is he Cannonball? Yeah.
>> So, bombsite, all of the stuff that took us to the soup's old folks home and him wanting to be there and all of that stuff was cool.
>> But for the last two episodes, I'll really be interested. The thing is this, Homelander is evil incarnate and now he is all powerful. Is humanity desperate enough to stop him?
>> Can he be stopped? it all the boy you the boy's world is the boy's world and we're here for it stretched dick fart going in somebody's [ __ ] all of that stuff cool all of that stuff is work but like this show was compelling to Steve's point for reasons that are more than that >> and in the last couple of episodes will they take the terror that is Homelander seriously enough to land this plane appropriately and will it work on us knowing that there's another show coming and knowing that they are being so [ __ ] heavy-handed with the fact that that show is coming.
>> I I love The Boys. I love everything about The Boys. I've always loved the show, >> but I don't know another show that in its last season was going, "Hey, >> there's more.
>> We're not over.
>> It's not over. It's >> the party over there.
>> Internal marketing at the final season of Game of Thrones. Like everybody's getting a show. Don't worry.
>> So like you know they they they are to in order to do that >> they are sacrificing a little bit and it's also odd to do it. Truly last thing I'll say it's also odd to do it with a prequel >> because a prequel is a story before the story. So this is the end of the story.
>> Right.
>> So this >> we'll see all those old folks again.
>> Yeah. So like it's it's interesting to do with a prequel. Imagine if they had a, you know, a spin-off set in the same time with maybe younger characters, >> kids in college >> that could handle the man. That's crazy.
>> Before we get to nerd news, we can't forget Midnight Meter Daredevil Born Again season 2.
>> Y'all know what it is. 1 to 12. One being the worst. 112 reserve for Game Changers. Start with you, Van.
>> Man, I'm tempted to go nine, but it's a eight.
>> Eight.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Uh, I'm going to go I'mma go I'm going to go seven.
>> Yeah.
>> Same strong seven.
>> Yeah, >> we're going with the six.
>> Okay.
>> All right.
>> All right.
>> Not a just I >> honestly I'm again, you surprised me.
>> I thought the show and I'm telling y'all something.
>> I'm looking forward to and fully expecting not a good third season of Daredevil Born Again. Classic [ __ ] >> Yeah, it's coming out next. It's coming out March 2027. So, it's a quick turnaround.
>> They shooting now. They might be finished.
>> Yeah.
>> Like, they're shooting now. I'm expecting classic [ __ ] We didn't even talk about Bullseye going there, switching places, and now he's working with Talk about these kids, >> which Bullseye technically miss.
>> When did he miss? He shotip. Well, he shot Buck.
>> Well, you remember he shot uh what's his name? Um Matt in the season one, right?
Somebody jumped in front of there.
Somebody move when he possibly move.
Like he was he had the shot lined up and when somebody something else happens, you know, hey >> you mean like you thought he was it was a kill shot for Buck, but then he just kind of left Buck.
>> Got shot in it.
>> But like he didn't he didn't like load load something else. Did he only took one shot? Okay.
>> Yeah. All right.
>> All right. And then real quick, we got the Odyssey trailer this uh this week.
We're going to do a little bit of nerd news on it. I believe this is the first time we get to see the Cyclops in full.
I did like the design.
>> That look great. Now, last time we checked in on the Odyssey, what what game were we watching at Vans House?
>> It was probably NFC AFC Championship.
>> Yeah. Playoffs.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, that was Travis Scottgate. You know, we were like, "All right, straight up."
>> Oh, okay.
>> I'mma start with you there cuz you mean Kica before Mortal Kombat 2 was talking about it. Excited.
Trepidacious. How are you feeling after this latest trailer? Don't be Hollywood about it. I don't know none of these [ __ ] I know some of them. Um I know whatever. So So this is what I'll say. Um I I I the trailer was fine for me. I do understand what people are talking about though audience. Would you can you can you explain what's the reaction to the trailer? So, the reaction to the trailer is >> are we [ __ ] >> And I'll tell you what this is a combination of.
>> It's a combination of >> Steve, I'm just telling you what was what's >> like it it's a combination of just massive almost indescribable anticipation and expectation. That's the first thing, >> right? Oppenheimer arguably was Nolan's apex just in terms of just like [ __ ] made a movie a movie about [ __ ] Oenheimer and it was a hu Barb was obviously but like what other director in America could pull that off and make almost a billion dollars.
>> Yeah.
>> When when Drake dropped his first album and people listened to it, nobody's going to remember this now and everybody's going to take this as a disc. I was there. It [ __ ] happened.
When Drake dropped his first album and people listened to it, they were like, "Oh, >> there was disappointment."
>> Yeah. They were like, >> "Wait, are you think Thank Me Later or was it People forget I was there?"
>> Yeah.
>> When Thank Me Later dropped because Best I Ever Had was so big >> and because So far Gone was so amazing.
>> So amazing. He had changed all this [ __ ] I remember the first single it was over. It dropped and people was like, "Oh, >> they be like, "Oh, >> that's not what >> Oh, the first song Fireworks was like >> when Alicia Keys get like this is the >> Oh. And Drake himself said, "Look, I just feel like people need to like open the packaging up and see that like angels and heaven wasn't going to pour out of the packaging of the CD." Even he addressed it. The reason why I bring that up now is because there's a little bit of that with the Odyssey. part of people are expecting for their boner to get harder the more they see of the Odyssey. They're not expecting to look at it and have any questions. They're expecting there to be a reinforcement of this is going to be the greatest movie of the year.
>> Okay, >> the best thing that's ever happened.
Like >> the hype is eating itself.
>> Nolan is and there and when they get things that they go, "Huh, that doesn't feel right." it starts to eat at the the confidence that they had in the movie.
Now, there are a lot of things that you look at and you go, is that gonna work?
Is this sort of Greek epic that is the foundation of storytelling going to work with a sort of modernday vernacular? And take it can can Nolan's style even be used to make a movie like this? It's like that movie when um when uh Arnowski made Noah, right? Oh yeah.
>> And that it was kind of a climate change biblical epic allegory and it was like does this thing work in in in this set of of toys? And there's a possibility that it doesn't work. Now I'm not saying that it won't, but there's a possibility that it doesn't. But you you brought up something interesting at the movie theater where I think Nolan's late not even late stage trick but as he got progressively like more experienced as a director part of buying into like to Nolan was like oh what is his what's Nolan's spy movie going to be what's his dream like er there's tons of movies about dreams what's his dream movie what's his war movie >> he can in a he can know in a magician movie he can nol in a Batman. He can nol in space. He can nol in biopic biopic.
He can nol in it all. Can he nol in the Odyssey?
>> But s to me sword and sandals to me was like on paper is the easiest thing for him to do because besides being very good at like structuring time, Nolan is an epic filmmaker. You know, he's one of the like the like in terms of our new generation of just like IMAX culture and movie bros wanting to go and see it on this format and that format. I think Nolan was at the forefront of being like, "When you see my movies, you need to see them big. You need to see them in theaters. [ __ ] streamers." All that [ __ ] To me, Sword and Sandals makes so much sense for Nolan in terms of like, that's the original epic. That is the original source code for everything. And watching this movie, there are moments where I'm like, >> watching the trailer, you mean cuz not the movie, the um trailer.
>> Yeah. where I was like, "Oh, I know too much about Tom Holland and I've seen him be a little bro."
>> I'm like, "This is the original Lil Bro."
>> No, y'all know when we got to that point.
>> No, I know. No, I said that in the first one. I was like, I don't know if that is my dad coming. [ __ ] Like, I don't know if that's going to work. But I said, >> am I being a Wait, I'm being a hater.
>> I know. Nope.
>> I don't think it's a hater. I think we're looking for something to complain about right now. I just like the the character in the book is like where where's my dad?
>> Yeah, where's >> I don't know what you like I don't know what you want from the character like the original where's my dad character.
I'm sorry.
>> But yeah, it's just >> I've seen a lot of that from Tom Holland before and it was there was a moment where I was like, okay, if if this is going to be a big part of the whole movie, >> hey, guess what? My running joke, I can't wait to not properly hear this movie >> anyway.
bad. Anyway, I can't hear it. No, Robert Patterson's going to cook. This is going to be great.
>> Yeah, >> I'm I'm excited. That Cyclops looked awesome. I think that there's >> Cyclops did look dope.
>> That looked awesome. I think there's going to be that great homage to that painting uh of uh I think Jupiter eating his son. I saw that still and I'm like that's exactly out of this painting.
It's great.
>> Uh this is cool. I don't understand why we're we're even trepidacious here.
>> My thing is I like I didn't know the Odyssey had shooters like this. Uh >> people are in the >> people are locked in. But at least that means people are still reading which is which is really good. We take those.
>> Yeah.
>> I man I'm watching the thing. I'm like yo this I you know we all know the story Odyssey. It's one of the oldest stories ever told. I can see the vision. I can see >> I can see the vision.
>> So like I don't understand why people are like trepidacious like legitimately like worried.
>> We're tenant truthers. You know I'm in the Nolan bag. I like I love Nolan. We do have to be real. I do think there's a lot of trailers that are coming out where I'm like, "Hey, yo, Nolan's human.
Spielberg is human." I'm not saying the movie is going to suck. I'm just saying all based off the trailers, I'm like, "Okay, interesting. I'm going to have to wait to see this one." But it's it's instead of I was walking into this year thinking The Odyssey was going to be the best movie of the year and going to be like, "Hey, at the Oscars, at everything, box office, y'all got to beat this."
I got more money on Doom 2. I mean, Doom 3 at this point.
>> Ah, man. We We going have to see it, man.
>> I mean, I think Doom 3 is probably I think Doom 3 is a a sure bet. It's the third part of a story that we've been really invested to. I don't think he's crazy for saying that. I think that people are expecting one thing from a movie like The Odyssey. And >> there's a sort of pomp and circumstance that comes along with like foreign accents. like we >> what >> you do some [ __ ] and you use American accents and vernacular >> and it feels like the Star Wars was able to do it right.
>> Sure. like Star Wars was Star Wars was able to do, but even in Star Wars, >> your evil characters have British accents >> that makes them kind of sound a little evil or a little bit more important.
Like your wizard, Obi-Wan has like a evil evil accent, which makes them sound a little bit more wizardy. Like Luke and them sound like more relatable because they sound like people that was going to the Dairy Queen and all. Luke sound like the [ __ ] that worked at the >> Backwater Planet Tattoo.
>> Backwater Planet Tattooey. holiday power converter.
It's a power converter.
>> But Luke is not plucky.
>> Uh he's not plucky to me. Um but he's not plucky to me.
>> Wait, Luke isn't plucky.
>> He's not really that plucky to me.
>> Okay.
>> And a new hope.
>> Nah, he's not that plucky.
>> Hey, it's out to uh with Rashad.
>> He's not really that plucky to me.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you know why he's not You know why he's not pluck you got it, big dog.
>> Do you know why he's not that plucky to me?
>> Arguing with his the first time we meet him, he arguing with the [ __ ] droids and his parents.
>> But do you know why he not that pluckucky to me?
>> Why up? He not that pluckucky to me.
He's He's young and annoying, but he not that plucky to me because Luke listens in A New Hope. Luke listens.
>> Like all throughout Luke, A New Hope, he's bucking back against his parents a little bit, but that's cuz he wants to do something else. He's complaining, but Luke listens.
>> When Ben, when Ben shows up, he's like, "All right."
>> It's not like Obi-Wan says, "Hey, Luke, don't do this." And Luke goes, "Hey, [ __ ] you."
>> Yeah. Cuz he wants to be a Jedi. He wants to be something bigger.
uh empire when like your training is not done. It's like I got to go save my friend.
>> But see that to me that by that point we out of the plucky stage, right? Like I'm talking about Luke Luke. And even in that though, >> I the way I look at pluckiness and I'm using pluckucky wrong. My pluckiness is badass kids [ __ ] up the story.
>> I don't like it.
>> You don't like them when they talk back?
>> No. I don't like it when somebody says, "Hey kid, don't touch the green diode of power or else it's going to drain all of the energy from the planet." And the kid touches the green diode of power and it dra I hate that [ __ ] [ __ ] bro. Get them out of my [ __ ] stories. I would rather there be an adult with some trauma that touches the green diode of power because they want to use it or harvest the power just because a [ __ ] kid [ __ ] up the whole [ __ ] thing. I [ __ ] hate it. I'm sorry. I can't watch it. Now, if you guys want to take Skywalker as being plucky, [ __ ] it. I'll give it to you. But what I like about Skywalker and the New Hope is Skywalker is obedient. All right. Skywalker is told to do these obedient kids to listen. Did you just ask me if I want obedient children?
>> Yes.
do what the [ __ ] you're told cuz you don't know nothing because like you don't know. You don't know.
>> That doesn't make a story. THAT DON'T MAKE FOR A GOOD STORY.
>> DON'T LIKE IT.
>> If Handle and Gretle are [ __ ] obedient, there's no story, >> right? Obedient children. Be OB. People are trying to tell you, "I can't [ __ ] stand." Remember my nephew back in the day, bro?
Back in the day, I bought him the PlayStation, dog. I bought him the PlayStation, right? takes the PlayStation out. He's so happy.
>> He takes the PlayStation out, puts the PlayStation on the counter. I say to him, "Take the [ __ ] PlayStation and hook it up or put it back in the box."
>> All right. He's There's no reason to walk around with it like it's a [ __ ] trophy. You play video games on it, right? It's like a PlayStation 3, I think. Take it, put it back in the box, >> or put it or go hook it up so you could play it.
>> I already know what's going to happen.
>> Oh, no. What do you think happened to the PlayStation?
>> Broke it.
>> HE BROKE THE [ __ ] PLAYSTATION.
>> He broke the PlayStation. How old was he?
>> I don't even want to talk about it.
>> He's like nine or 10. He broke like he broke the play. IT'S BRUTAL.
>> POP CRACK. I COME in there. I look at him. He looking at me, tears in his eyes. I'm like, "You're not getting another one.
>> You're not getting another one."
>> And then everybody looked at me like, "That's not money for you. You're not getting another place." Hey, they look at you like get them another one >> because plucky has been accepted.
>> Okay. So, >> Plucky's a DRAIN ON YOUR POCKETS is what is what it sounds like.
>> I don't give a [ __ ] about that [ __ ] I'm saying what I'm saying is me, man.
>> Did you get did you get him another PlayStation?
>> Of course, LIKE how long did you wait to get him the next one?
>> Well, number one, it like it it was nothing to get him a new one. We had just bought it. So, you can just bring it back in.
>> Did it like not work or did it just like >> I didn't want him to get him No, he broke that [ __ ] >> Okay. Okay. I want him to get him a new PlayStation. Period. And I'll tell you why.
>> Teach the lesson.
>> Teach the lesson.
>> It's a lesson. It's a lesson.
>> 1986.
We got to go. 1986. I don't know if I told this story before. 1986, I get the flyest gift I've ever got. I get my first car. My first car is a Bigfoot Big Wheels Hot Wheels. Okay. A Big No, Power Wheels. It's a Bigfoot Power Wheels.
>> Is it one of the motorized ones? It's one of the electric motorized joints, >> right?
>> Like I get it right >> for one day. I'm whipping.
>> I'm driving around the neighborhood. I'm on my [ __ ] I'm pulling up to people.
They like, "Oh, look at Van with the Power Wheels." I'm like, "Just get out of here, man." I'm talking all around B.
I'm talking Spain Street, like right off Govern Street, right next to Baton Rouge High where we live. I'm whipping in the Power Wheel. My cousin Koy comes over, asks if he could ride the Power Wheel.
My dad looks at me. My dad says, "Something wrong with that boy?
Something wrong with that boy. If you let him ride your power wheels, I'm telling you, either go take the power wheels and go somewhere or something else going to happen.
>> All right. I did not listen.
>> Of course not.
>> Cuz I wanted Coy to be able to like take my [ __ ] around you. You whip it for a second. You come up too. You my cousin.
>> Everybody comes up.
>> You come up.
>> Everybody eats.
>> I come up. You come up. You come up too, >> right?
>> You come up too.
>> What does your dad see in him though?
I come up, you come up. I will never forget this scene. We are in the back of the house. Like, we're in the backyard.
Spain Street, Baton Rouge.
>> We're in the back of the house. Mama and Daddy was in the front digging worms.
They were digging in the front to get bait to go to Ramy and Fish. They were digging for worms, right?
>> And so, we in the back of the house. Coy is driving the Hot Wheels around. Then he stops. He gets under the Hot Wheel and he does something. I do not know why he did this. He did something under the Hot Wheels and then he gets back in it.
He drives it for a little while. It stops. He tries to drive it a little a little bit more. It stops.
>> Yeah.
>> Then the Hot Wheels, it won't go. He gets up and goes in the house. I go over and look at the Hot Wheel. And then I go get Dad and Dad was like, he broke it.
Like, I don't know what he was did. He broke it. And and and my dad goes, "You're not getting another one." Like, "You're not getting another one." And guess what? I held on to the husk of the Hot Wheel just to sit in it till about 1989.
>> I 1989. You were 18. I I held on to the husk. But did I did I get another Hot Wheel?
>> No.
>> No.
>> But you see, the next time somebody gave me something and it was for me, you better not [ __ ] touch my [ __ ] [ __ ] >> That is the thing. Another person didn't come along.
>> Anybody would like to give Van Castle Grace [ __ ] up my [ __ ] Castle Grace. Coy was the same [ __ ] >> Wait a second. WAIT A SECOND. THAT'S THE SAME [ __ ] I told the castle Grace Co story, did I not? THAT'S THE SAME [ __ ] GUY ON YOUR WHEEL >> BECAUSE THIS LITTLE [ __ ] couldn't afford Castle Grace Skull. I was trying to be good with him. I was LIKE, I FELT BAD. IT'S so hard for me right now to watch people struggle. LIKE, IT'S HARD for me. It's hard for me. If you tell if you walk up to me right now on the street and you say, "Hey, Van, read my script." I'mma read that [ __ ] It's hard for me. BUT COY ALMOST [ __ ] THAT UP IN ME because he was [ __ ] up CASTLE GRACE. SAME [ __ ] GUY. SAME GUY. AND HE BROKE MY POWER WHEEL. I NEVER GOT ANOTHER ONE. I NEVER GOT another power wheel. And dad, >> by the way, Dad had no [ __ ] shame about it. Dad would bring it up to other people that I never got a another Hot Wheel. He would say Craig. He was like, "Oh, oh, Van Kite," like no prompt. We were talking about some completely different [ __ ] Or Craig would be like, "Hey man, you see that boy Mike Tyson knocking everybody out?"
My dad would be like, "Yeah, that's cool." "Hey, Van, let somebody come over here and bust up his Power Wheel. He not getting another one."
>> This is This is the heart of the plucky.
>> Yeah. This is the You let a pluckucky kid break your power wheel. And you like, "Fuck it. I don't want to see it in media. I don't want to see it in my life."
>> I just don't I don't like people doing random ass [ __ ] for no reason.
>> Right. And when they don't learn that lesson.
>> Hey man, listen. If if the if New Ho came out today and Luke hit that shot at the Death Star, you would say it was quarter flipper.
>> No, it wouldn't.
>> In 20 in 2026, >> he was training in the force. You guys fundamentally don't about to piss me off. Fundamentally don't understand. He trained in the force for a whole >> Luke.
>> He trained in the force for a whole movie.
>> A whole movie that takes place over the course of what, like a couple days, two, three days.
>> So he trained in the force for the entire movie. We don't We're not sure.
And then on top of that, by the way, a ghost told him to do it.
>> Yeah.
>> So, by the way, son of Darth Vader, son of Anakin Sky, >> how long was a new hope canonically? How it took?
>> We don't even know if Kenobi helped.
>> I don't think it's a quarter flip.
>> I was definitely a quarter flip. By the way, Skywalker also there's also in the movie Skywalker also when he had the blast helmet on >> was able to use the force >> and block the blast.
>> High mediclorans >> Skywalker.
>> It's probably like four days.
>> That's fine.
>> Four days of training in the forest.
>> That's enough.
>> Actually, you know what? Not a quarter flip because in the prequels Anakin was a little man hopping hopping in the [ __ ] >> Part of that is a Nate. Now if you show me a [ __ ] who is good at flipping quarters and doing [ __ ] like that in Nate then that's cool.
>> Is Luke technically Bronny >> in the house? Get it off.
>> We out the mud with Thursday. Blood mash. Bronnie gonna be a good pro. Watch. I'm all in on Bronnie now.
>> Yeah, >> I am.
>> Came all the way around.
>> I'm I came out. I'm Bronnie's gonna be a good pro.
>> Bronnie's going to be a good pro. And you know what else I learned?
>> I want Bronnie to be a good pro.
>> Course lying.
>> Let me tell you why.
>> You're rooting for him.
>> Let me tell you why.
>> Cut this for social.
>> Cut this for social. As we been at this 2 hours and 30 minutes, I'm not against black nepotism. I'm a supporter.
>> Yeah.
Black nepatism is the only way. I don't like I don't like the fact that it's some little [ __ ] named Jaylen >> uh somewhere that can't get into the league because Bronny in the league.
It's probably some guy named >> uh Jamani Hudson Jr. that's not going to get his [ __ ] cuz Bronnie in the league.
>> We I got to help Jamani Hudson is what we got to do. But see black nepotism. I don't care.
>> But what why it could be a Braden that's not getting into the league. who you know like just some white dude you know who's supposed to be like got a burner from three but since it's Bronnie you know he getting in over him >> yeah the good thing about him is that he could go work at city bank but the other [ __ ] I'm talking about ain't no city bank job waiting for him I see white boys all the time you play ball with them and and they like 6'5 and they got MIT on their shirt he's like like yeah yeah I went there for a little while hooped at [ __ ] dartmouth.com and now I work at scatt you know what I'm saying and like you hooping with them all the I I don't see very many [ __ ] that was like, "Yeah, I left Central Florida and now I work at Guggenheim." I don't see that. Like the They work at C. They went to Central Florida and now they playing in Mexico. You know what I'm saying?
They trying to They trying to get back >> with black ne like take Jaden Smith.
[ __ ] with it.
>> [ __ ] I'm fine. Black nepatism. Fine with it.
>> Black. Now look, >> John David Washington that I'm with it.
I think he's good, by the way. I also think he's good. But like I'm with it.
So like for some reason although I do worry about intracom community inequality amongst black people I do.
>> Mhm.
>> But black nepotism fine.
>> Okay.
>> On Thursday but mass reaction moral combat 2 next week house of art and midnight boys at the foot of one last kill.
>> Uh our producers there royalty got me thinking about koi joy me a dinneron on social # joomi city brank pressure. I love that. Additional production from ajuna ramco powell.
Chuck, take us out.
>> Daredevil needs to do a flip. Yeah.
Wilson Fisk is crazy.
And shout out to our all our little black neo babies.
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