Sam Shamouns Interesting Debate with an Orthodox Jew on the Trinity!

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]What do you do apologetics in regards to what faith?

[00:00:02]>> Uh so I defend Judaism and I try to disprove Christianity and Islam. So Yeah, well that means you're lost cuz without Jesus your religion is a joke.

[00:00:11]So So we're talking about the Trinity.

[00:00:12]No, it's true. I mean you can laugh, man. I don't want you to be upset. So we're talking about the Trinity. So what's from the scriptures?

[00:00:18]>> Right. So I heard a lot of your videos.

[00:00:20]I watched them and I heard you say that Yeah, so I heard that you said that in scripture in the Old Testament you would never find plural verbs that referring to one person. Right. [clears throat] So you want first Samuel 28:13? No. So I did find some. So I would like to bring it up and see if you have any objection to them. Sure. All right. Okay, so the first one would be Job chapter 18, the beginning of the chapter. So basically we see So he replies to Job and he refers to him in plural nouns. You said Job 18, right? I'm in Job 18. Where?

[00:00:51]>> Yeah, correct. So over here we can see that Bildad answers Job and he If you want you can open it in BibleHub see the plurality. Like verse?

[00:01:01]Okay, verse two. Okay. Why are we regarded as beasts and then send your eyes? Okay. Let's go here. And so that's going to refute the entire case for the Trinity. All right, let's see. How long?

[00:01:12]All right. Where? You put is you put is plural. Where where where Hold on. Take it.

[00:01:17]>> The third You put Yeah, that's plural and it's referring to to Job. Plus the the sixth one that says gain understanding. It's also plural verb and it's referring to Job.

[00:01:28]Okay, so now this is now supposed to prove what again? Okay, so that shows that they are like Job is one person is still being referred in plurality. So it means in the Bible if God is being referred to in plurality does not mean that he's plural in person. It just uh using uh how do you call it? It's called like respect. follow. Nope. Because in Job 33:4 So now I'm going to meet you at your where you at. Job 33:4 Who made man?

[00:01:54]Let me go Let me open it up. 33:4 doesn't follow. So, you're wrong there.

[00:01:59]Well, why doesn't follow exactly?

[00:02:01]Because the same Job tells you that the God who created is not just one person.

[00:02:05]It's God and his spirit. Open up Job 33:4. Read it for me. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:09]Okay. But, this Do you agree first of all, the first verse I gave you, you agree there's plurality?

[00:02:13]No, I know it's plurality, but it doesn't mean it's because Job is one person. There's going to be other reasons that's related to >> Job is one person. What do you mean?

[00:02:20]Bu- buddy, if you're not going to listen, I'm going to cuss you out.

[00:02:22]Listen to what I said. Okay. Listen. Job is not one person. I know you're excited to prove your demonic doctrines. Take it easy.

[00:02:30]I said, "No, it doesn't follow that if the plurals are used for Job, it's because that it only has Job in mind."

[00:02:37]And I will go back and research it, and I'm going to show you that there's a reason for the plural. Just like in 1 Samuel 28:13, the spirit of Samuel comes up, but he goes, "I see Elohim rising."

[00:02:47]And it's plural. Take it easy, buddy.

[00:02:49]But, nonetheless, deal with Job 33:4, "The spirit of God made me." Okay. Yeah, so I don't see the distinction. I have a spirit, God has a spirit. It's part of me.

[00:02:59]>> you think. I'm asking you, did God create man with a spirit?

[00:03:05]Exactly.

[00:03:07]So, is the spirit >> With his word, with his spirit. You going to keep talking over me? Then I'm going to cuss you out. Okay. I'm sorry.

[00:03:14]Take it easy. I'm going to shish kebab you. Just be patient. Is the spirit identical to God?

[00:03:20]It's part of him.

[00:03:21]I didn't ask you that. Is it identical to God?

[00:03:24]Yes.

[00:03:26]So, God and the spirit are one in the same?

[00:03:29]Exactly.

[00:03:30]Then you're lying.

[00:03:31]Why?

[00:03:32]>> Because God will pour out his spirit.

[00:03:34]What is he pouring out?

[00:03:37]What Again, what does he what? I didn't hear you. When God says, "I'll put my spirit" or "pour out my spirit," what is he pouring out?

[00:03:47]His spirit.

[00:03:49]But, you just said the spirit is God.

[00:03:50]So, God is saying, "I will pour out myself.

[00:03:52]A part of himself, yeah.

[00:03:54]No, let's go again, see? You're playing games with me.

[00:03:57]What do you mean? If it's part of God, is that identical to God or there's a distinction?

[00:04:03]So Okay, so it's exactly like my spirit is identical to me or has distinction?

[00:04:07]You're not God. You're not God.

[00:04:09]>> I'm not. So then don't use a false analogy cuz unless you think your God Hashem is a man like you and has testicles.

[00:04:16]You're a creature.

[00:04:18]And even then your spirit is not identical to your flesh. So is your spirit your flesh? I'm not my flesh. My flesh is just a cover. Is your spirit your flesh? Answer the questions before I cuss you out, man.

[00:04:28]>> No, it's not my flesh because the flesh is not me. So then there's a distinction.

[00:04:32]>> That's why I died.

[00:04:33]Okay, so there's a distinction. So is this spirit distinct from God or identical to God?

[00:04:39]Identical.

[00:04:42]Is the spirit God or is the spirit distinct from God because he belongs to God?

[00:04:50]Okay, it's kind of confusing to me because I'm not like a philosophical person. I want to see in the scripture you can show me What?

[00:04:57]>> Yes, I just showed you.

[00:04:59]Joel 2:28-29 that I will pour out my spirit.

[00:05:04]Mhm.

[00:05:05]Okay, so let's go with you. God is saying I will pour out me, myself upon you. Is that how you want to interpret this?

[00:05:13]Yeah.

[00:05:15]So God is saying I'm going to pour out me, my self on you?

[00:05:19]Yeah, you can see all over the Yeah, you can see a lot of places in the scriptures too. God says I'll put myself in you, I'll cover myself with you. Like you can see all You can see all the places.

[00:05:27]>> what he says to Moses, I'm going to take the spirits on you and put it on the 70 elders. He's saying I'm going to take myself that's on you and put on the 70 elders? Part, yeah, part of myself. See, there we go again.

[00:05:38]What does it mean part? Does it mean they're the same or there's a distinction?

[00:05:45]They are the same, but you can split You can part, you can, how do you say?

[00:05:48]Split, not split, or whatever. They are the same, but you can take part of.

[00:05:52]So, it's distinct.

[00:05:55]You can call it distinct, distinction, yeah. Okay, so now you just refuted yourself. You proved there's a distinction in God.

[00:06:02]Okay, no problem. Now, I Okay.

[00:06:05]>> wait, wait. Be patient. So, now you just justified that the plurals for God is not akin to Job because you just acknowledged there's a distinction within God, God and his spirit working together.

[00:06:16]So, how did you refute me?

[00:06:18]Okay. I did I didn't try to refute. I just wanted to say cuz I remember that you said that it's non-existing, so I I did find a place. I want to show you.

[00:06:25]>> no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:06:47]Right. So, the plurality would refer to who?

[00:06:50]His descendants. You got it. So, I see you just buried yourself. So, second >> Right, but what does that have to do with Job? Oh, well, it's because Job also doesn't just stand for himself. I'm going to get there if you're patient.

[00:07:00]Take it easy. I'm going to shish kebab you. Be patient.

[00:07:05]No, no, no, I'm just blowing my nose.

[00:07:06]It's nothing.

[00:07:07]>> Okay. Now, when we go back to Genesis 4:10, when it says the blood of your brother cries out to me, is the word blood plural?

[00:07:16]I need to open it up. Where again? In Genesis 4:10 cuz I want to show you what the rabbi said. Let me check. 4:10, one second.

[00:07:23]>> Genesis 4:10. You think you have me, you don't because that Job example doesn't prove your case, it's going to prove mine.

[00:07:29]In Genesis 4:10, and I'm going to show you how the rabbis interpret in your Talmud and >> Yeah, yeah, the the blood is plural, yeah. Plural, okay. So, now what did the rabbi say? Why did God say to Cain, "The bloods of your brother cry out to me."?

[00:07:42]You know what the Talmud says?

[00:07:44]What?

[00:07:45]It says because when you kill one person, you kill a whole nation.

[00:07:50]As if, yeah.

[00:07:52]No, it says when you kill one person, you kill a whole nation because of the descendants. So, now since your rabbi said the reason why it's bloods plural because in Abel, the whole nation that would have arose from him were killed.

[00:08:05]Now you understand why even if I take what you said, plurals with Job, that doesn't help your case. It represents Job and those that would spring from his loins, so it didn't help your case.

[00:08:14]Yeah, but that's a speech. It's not confirmed by his blood. If I talk to you for example, and I refer to plurality, Did you forget Genesis 28?

[00:08:23]Did you want me to remind you of Genesis 28 when he says to >> Right. No, I agree with you Genesis 28, but Okay, so I can give you more examples. So, let's not change the game.

[00:08:31]No, I'm asking you.

[00:08:33]>> If the plural is used to indicate that a person doesn't stand alone, but he represents even those that will descend from him, and the singular can function in the same way, you have no case.

[00:08:47]No, I would agree with you. It depends on the context. The context in Job does not refer to his descendants. No, that's your assumption because you're not listening to what I said. When you talk to a person, even though he's one, the plural can account for that that one will stand for those who descend from him whether you like it or not, and you agreed to that.

[00:09:04]That's why in Genesis 4:10, the plural is used for the bloods of Abel.

[00:09:12]So, you didn't make your case. So, let's come back to >> [clears throat] >> the plurality of God. Okay. No, I listen, I concede I'll concede it because I have another point that I want to point out. Okay, wait, wait. Say it again. You did what? I'll concede it.

[00:09:24]Good. So, so much for that, but now deal with the fact that in Genesis 1 cuz that's why I went to Job 33:4.

[00:09:31]Okay. Job 33:4 to show you You acknowledged the spirit is a part of God. So, if he's a part of God, he's not the whole of God. So, there's that distinction.

[00:09:41]So, in Genesis 1:2, who is present at creation?

[00:09:46]Genesis 1:2 God's spirit.

[00:09:51]The spirit of God, right?

[00:09:52]Correct. And the verb hovering, you know where else it's used?

[00:09:58]Where?

[00:09:59]Deuteronomy 32:10-11. Open up, read it for me.

[00:10:03]Deuteronomy 32:10-11.

[00:10:11]But, what verse?

[00:10:13]Deuteronomy 32:10-11, yes.

[00:10:15]10 to 11.

[00:10:19]Okay.

[00:10:21]Okay. What does it say that Hashem I don't know because I don't think you like to pronounce the divine name, right?

[00:10:26]Right. Okay. Hashem, out of respect for you. Thank you.

[00:10:30]>> say? Like an eagle hovering.

[00:10:35]That's the same >> Yeah.

[00:10:41]Deuteronomy 32:10-11, it likens Hashem to an eagle hovering over her nest.

[00:10:50]Right.

[00:10:50]>> it?

[00:10:51]Yeah. Hovering shows awareness. An eagle must be aware this nest is hers and these are her offspring and it hovers over the nest for the specific purpose of providing, caring, protecting. And that's why Hashem is likened to an eagle hovering over you cuz you are her nest, right?

[00:11:13]Yeah.

[00:11:14]So, the verb shows consciousness, correct?

[00:11:18]Yeah, you're speaking about God. God is conscious, so yes. Yes, but then Genesis 1:2, the same verb is used of the spirit. So, what does that tell us about the spirit hovering over the watery surface of the earth?

[00:11:29]Yeah, I see what you're saying.

[00:11:31]So, what does that imply?

[00:11:32]Okay, according to what you're trying to say, there's this there's distinction, so it's a different persons. No, it's not different persons. What does it What does it imply that the spirit hovers when that shows conscious activity?

[00:11:46]That the entity who's hovering must have awareness.

[00:11:50]Yeah.

[00:11:51]So, what does that imply about the spirit?

[00:11:54]The spirit is aware.

[00:11:55]Oh, okay. Now you just ended up helping me make the case with Trinity stronger cuz now I'm going to ask you in Genesis 1:26, and don't bring up the angel interpretation, that will get buried.

[00:12:06]When God said, "In our image," right? When God said, "Let us make man in our image," in verse two, we see the spirit is there. You just admit that the verb hovering shows the spirit has awareness.

[00:12:20]In light of Job 33:4, where it says, "The spirit of God has made me," you're now going to help me prove that God is speaking to the spirit. So, why is he speaking to the spirit?

[00:12:31]Okay, um Let me see, one second. Well, wait, is he speaking to the spirit again? You're You're talking about it's 20 26? Yeah, let me read it again Let me repeat it again so you don't attack straw men and then run from it.

[00:12:43]In Job 33:4, it says, "The spirit of God has made me," and it uses the same verb.

[00:12:48]"The spirit of God has made me."

[00:12:51]Job 33:4, you read it, same verb.

[00:12:53]Genesis 1:26, there's the verb again, "Let us make man in our image after our likeness."

[00:13:00]And in verse two, the spirit is there.

[00:13:02]So, when I combine Genesis 1:2, hear me out, then you try to refute me, and I combine Genesis 1:26 and Job 33:4, now I have from your Tanakh the proof God is speaking to the spirit because it's the spirit that made man with God.

[00:13:21]Same verb. Genesis 1:26, "Let us make" same verb as Job 33:4, "The spirit of God has made me. And in verse two, we see the spirit is there hovering, [snorts] meaning the spirit is conscious and aware. So, God is speaking to the spirit. So, why is God speaking to the spirit if the spirit is not a distinct person?

[00:13:40]Okay, so I would say that over here the case you're trying to make is the exact case I can make and in Proverbs chapter 8 when it speaks about the Hokhmah, which is the wisdom.

[00:13:54]>> You don't you know that we say that's Jesus? So, don't go there, it's not going to help your case.

[00:13:59]>> Why? Wisdom is aware and the wisdom says he was there at the beginning.

[00:14:02]>> who told you that we don't use wisdom of Proverbs 8 to show that's an actual conscious divine person who becomes the Messiah?

[00:14:11]You don't want to go to Proverbs 8.

[00:14:12]>> no, so so I'm just I'm curious. So, you're saying that wisdom is the Messiah? Yes, according to >> Three Three part it? Yes, that was the view of early Christians. But before you jump there, even if you have wisdom there, good, that's three. You just argued for the Trinity.

[00:14:28]>> Right, so then where's the angel of the of the Lord? That's four? Because the angel of the Lord is wisdom and word because if I show you in Jewish sources that the wisdom is said to be in the pillar of cloud, Sirach 24:1-4, which your rabbis quoted. And it's the angels in the pillar of cloud. And then in Wisdom of Solomon chapter 18, we're told it's the word of God that came down and destroyed Israelites. I just made the case that the angel is the wisdom and the word using Jewish sources. See?

[00:14:56]Again, so so Oh, no, wait, wait, wait.

[00:14:59]You ran from my argument. I'll get to your wisdom. I'm not like you. I don't I didn't understand your argument. Come back to Genesis 1. Do you now admit that God is speaking to the spirit? You ran.

[00:15:11]You didn't answer. You ran.

[00:15:12]>> okay, so so so speaking to the spirit is an option, yes. I can't say not, but it could be other options. For example, it could be speaking Okay, for example, he could be he could be speaking to the where is it in Psalms I think 80 something I'm sure you know that.

[00:15:29]No.

[00:15:29]>> Speaking to his console to brother because Isaiah 44:24 says that God made everything by himself. There are no angels involved.

[00:15:38]That's not going to work if unless you know.

[00:15:40]>> No, that's consulting. It's what?

[00:15:42]Consulting you can see here in Genesis 1 you can see that God himself made it.

[00:15:46]It's not consulting. It's let us do this together. There is no consultation. He's telling them let us create. That's an action that he's involving others in.

[00:15:55]And Isaiah 44:24 says no one other than God performed that act. Your arguments are not going to work. You're reading into your text and I'm not. I'm going with what the text says. It's not consultation. It's let us make man.

[00:16:09]That's not consultation. That's saying hey, join me let's make man.

[00:16:13]And then I gave you proof. Job 33:4 the spirit did make man. So at least God was talking to the spirit.

[00:16:20]Yeah, so okay.

[00:16:22]Can we speak about the Okay, before we go there we I'll go with you. Before we go there do you now admit that in light of your Tanakh which I didn't use the New Testament Genesis 1:2 Genesis 1:26 Job 33:4 we now have a clear cut case from your Tanakh God is speaking to the spirit cuz the spirit did create. But since God created alone that means the spirit though distinct from God and God can talk to the spirit he's still one God.

[00:16:53]Yeah, I hear I see what you're saying.

[00:16:55]Good. Now we're closer to the Trinity from the Tanakh. Okay, can I