A historic deal for unionized Uber drivers | The Current

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[00:00:00]Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast.

[00:00:04]>> Uber drivers in Victoria, British Columbia are reacting to an historic union agreement.

[00:00:09]>> It's good. I mean, I'm in the union side. In my case, family, kids, work, work, work, work, pay the bills at the end of the day, right? So, if you have support from someone that they're protecting you, that's good. Uber drivers in that city have become the first app-based workers in Canada to unionize and ratify an agreement. And that is drivers across the country like Erla Phillips in Toronto hopeful they can do the same.

[00:00:38]>> Some people are working anywhere between 12 and 16 to 18 hours a day to try to make enough money so that they can cover their vehicle expenses, pay for their living expenses. Things need to change.

[00:00:52]You know, most of us love doing this work. A lot of us love driving. A lot of us love having the customers in our cars and taking people where they go and earning on our time and our place. But you know what? We need fair pay.

[00:01:07]>> Ash Ericson is an Uber driver and part of the union's bargaining team. He's in Victoria. Ash, good morning.

[00:01:13]>> Good morning.

[00:01:14]>> How do you feel having this this deal ratified now?

[00:01:17]>> Oh, it was a great feeling when we got it all taken care of. It was a long time coming.

[00:01:22]>> Yeah. and and why the need to have a union for for drivers working in BC with Uber?

[00:01:28]>> Bunch of different things. Like the intro was saying, there's the fair pay.

[00:01:32]There's also the actual representation to be able to deal with issues with Uber because unfortunately sometimes when dealing with their customers or driver support, the uh support isn't exactly very supportive.

[00:01:45]>> What do you mean by that? Just sort of describe walk us through what it's like.

[00:01:48]Oh, if there's any dispute of say a fair didn't pay properly, you'd think it'd be as simple as calling and asking somebody to fix it, but it usually involves calling five or six times or chatting with what is essentially a scripted AI bot over and over, having them end the conversation, saying, "Nope, we've told you all you need to know." And only after five or 10 times of talking with them will it usually be resolved.

[00:02:15]Sometimes more.

[00:02:18]just describe to us sort of your dayto-day. How many hours are you driving? What time do you start? Uh how do you decide which hours you're going to work?

[00:02:26]>> Um for me, I usually start just after dropping my kids off at school in the morning. Um I'll usually go for the day, pick them up from school, and then after supper time when the wife is home, I'll end up going working in the evenings. My main thing that I like about the job is be able to start and stop whenever I need to. As you've mentioned though, there there are challenges. For instance, there's a lot of overhead.

[00:02:50]You've got car insurance, maintenance, fuel. What are the financial realities of your work?

[00:02:56]>> Well, the realities are that costs are still going up for pretty much everything for the driver's side, but the pay hasn't ever kept up with the costs of operating. The pay has actually gone down most of the way across the board for most drivers.

[00:03:13]>> Yeah. So, so you say you like the hours and it's flexible and that's all good, but but if it is so challenging and the wages haven't increased over time, why have you stuck with it as long as you have?

[00:03:24]>> Uh, I kept holding out hope that once we got the union contract, we'll be able to actually make it worthwhile again. I've, you know, I love love the job, the ability to deal with customers and everybody I meet every day is great people. So, it's a fun job to do. It's just Yeah. a regular nineto-five job doesn't work necessarily for my schedule.

[00:03:47]>> And so, does this deal does it make it worthwhile? Does it make it more lucrative for you and your family?

[00:03:52]>> Uh, we're just finding out about how it works as all the contract starts to kick in. I mean, the contract came with some extra perks that we didn't have previously, such as a health plan and quarterly bonuses, and we're going to find out how much of a difference that'll all make.

[00:04:09]>> Are you hopeful? I mean, is there is there one thing in particular that you were fighting for that you're happy you've gotten or or is did you lose some things in this that you would you're you're still searching for?

[00:04:20]>> Um, I mean, we're never going to get everything we want on a first contract.

[00:04:23]That's was the reality of the way it works, but we got more than we were expecting out of it. The main thing I think is the ability to have the representation for when dealing with Uber and also when uh the union is now going to be able to be lobbying the government on behalf of the drivers.

[00:04:43]That's going to be able to help us a lot too.

[00:04:45]>> You know, Victoria is a smaller market.

[00:04:47]You know, I've heard some people talk about whether or not this can find its way a unionization for for Uber drivers in bigger cities like Toronto. What are your thoughts? Do do you think it could expand to a place like Toronto? Oh, I hope it can expand all the way across the country. I mean, bigger cities, it'll definitely be more of a challenge to organize everybody together, but I hope that more drivers consider it and are able to get together for it.

[00:05:13]>> If there are others looking to do this, what would you suggest in in helping them organize?

[00:05:18]>> Keep your ear out for when you hear that a union is organizing in your city and then get in contact with them. I mean there's depends on uh which unions are forming. I don't know which form ones are trying to form in different cities but most of the time the there is word gets around amongst the drivers and usually some news or something like that and once you've heard that they're trying to form get in touch with them.

[00:05:44]>> Okay Ash I appreciate your time today at happy driving today.

[00:05:48]>> Thank you.

[00:05:48]>> Ash Ericson is an Uber driver in Victoria and part of the union's bargaining team.

[00:05:55]Uh Michael Wright, labor lawyer at the Toronto law firm Wright Henry LLP joins us now. He's been working with Uber drivers in Toronto. Good morning to you.

[00:06:04]>> Good morning.

[00:06:05]>> Uh Michael, why haven't we seen more unions of app-based workers come to be in the in the way that we've seen happen in Victoria?

[00:06:12]>> It's a challenging sector to organize.

[00:06:14]As Ash just explained, um, what made things different in British Columbia is that the government amended its labor laws to provide for a platform worker classification.

[00:06:26]And the key to that is it eliminated this dispute over whether uh drivers and delivery people are employees or independent contractors, which is a uh a hurdle that gets removed when the legislation is amended. and uh certainly makes organizing um more straightforward, not simple, but certainly more straightforward.

[00:06:50]>> Can you unionize without that legislation going ahead? I mean, if other provinces such as Ontario and and other ones across the country have not done that, then is there still a chance to unionize?

[00:07:01]>> There is, but there is this debate about whether uh drivers and delivery people are independent contractors or employees. It it's it's an issue in the class action in Ontario where I'm council uh where um the claim is that uh Uber drivers and delivery people are employees and Uber takes the position that they are independent contractors and so it's a longunning challenging debate >> and and why do you think other provinces have not followed BC's general direction to make these employees employees and not just independent freelancers essentially? Well, I'm hoping they will because I think uh what the situation in Victoria demonstrates is that when government steps in and uh legislates and creates an environment in which Uber is um required to negotiate in good faith. What the story in Victoria tells us is that's what they do. They negotiate in good faith. They respect that legal regulation. Uh this is a company that historically um had what I would call a complicated relationship with the law and legal regulation. It's now a much more mature, highly profitable, publicly traded company that what Victoria shows us will accept regulation and will act appropriately when that is done. outside of Victoria then. Now, we know they have their their deal, but but for everyone else who's driving Uber in this country, what kind of worker protections do they have if you're working for an app-based company right now?

[00:08:42]>> None. They are not they're not considered workers. They are considered independent contractors and they do not have the legal protection that we take for granted in so many other workplaces and in so many other classifications of employees. You know, there are people listening right now who would say just don't drive Uber, then get another job.

[00:09:02]Why is it important to ensure that they have the protections they need?

[00:09:07]>> Well, I guess you can say that about anybody who's got challenges in their job. You can always say, "Well, go work somewhere else or do something else."

[00:09:14]But the reality is, um, many people who drive for Uber do it because it's what they're able to do. it either fits with their schedule, it's what they're trained for, they don't have a better option, and so that's the option that they're pursuing. Um, and as a society, and I would say a wealthy society, I just find it outrageous that governments have not stepped in to offer basic protections both in terms of health and safety, in terms of um providing people with the minimum standards that other employees and their provinces have and have not made it easier for um Uber drivers and delivery people and other platform reform workers who indicate they want to unionize to actually have access to collective bargaining.

[00:10:10]>> You heard Ash sort of describe why it would be difficult or how it would be more difficult in Toronto to unionize when the drivers are sort of they're hidden, right? We don't know who they are and even the the I think the app doesn't necessarily know where to find them all or people outside of the system don't necessarily know where to find them all. So, how outside of the legislative u challenges it would be to unionize, how difficult would it be to unionize in a place like Vancouver or Toronto?

[00:10:36]>> It is challenging um for all of those reasons. And what UFCW did, which was um uh creative, but I think they had no other choice is that the organizers actually took Uber rides so they could talk to Uber Uber drivers. That's how they communicated with them about the union and that's how they assess their interest in joining the union. So that is not a typical organizing drive. You don't typically get in the car of the employee who um may or may not want to unionize and talk to them, but there's really no other alternative when they're so um spread out and where there's no transparency in terms of um where they are and how to reach them. There has been, of course, some push back to the agreement that drivers in Victoria got.

[00:11:25]Have a listen to what Earl Phillips had to say about it. Now, she's an Uber driver in Toronto, co-founder of the advocacy group Rid Share Drivers Association of Ontario. Have a listen.

[00:11:35]>> It's kind of thin on substance as far as I'm concerned. It hasn't delivered what traditional unions would be fighting for, um, such as fair pay. There has been no change. there was no increase to workers uh earnings. There were small little uh benefits attached which are all performance-based um but nothing that significantly improves the earnings of the typical driver.

[00:12:02]>> What do you make of of that comment? It is a first collective agreement and that um is always um challenging because you can't achieve everything you want in a first collective agreement. But this agreement does provide significant financial improvements for drivers. Um they have an opportunity to earn uh over $10,000 in quarterly bonuses during a 4-year collective agreement. They will have access to a $500 annual health and wellness fund that's paid for through contributions by Uber based on um a 10- cent per ride contribution. Um there are increases to waiting fees, cancellation fees. Um and there is that is the financial piece. There's also a full and independent grievance and arbitration process, a joint health and safety committee. Those things are also important to drivers, right? Fairness and an ability to resolve disputes quickly and inexpensively is also crucial for them.

[00:13:06]>> Is there any concern that if if a company like Uber tries to or rather the the drivers themselves try to unionize that the company will just pull out altogether, look, I'm not going to deal with this union. I'm not going to deal with with with government legislation, whatever whatever it may be. I mean, is there risk in in Uber just pulling out of a market?

[00:13:25]>> There's always a risk with a company that is going to be unionized that has flexibility in terms of where it wants to provide services or manufacture goods. Uh there's always that risk and there is that risk with Uber, but Uber made $10 billion last year in profit.

[00:13:45]So, it is a highly profitable business.

[00:13:48]It was not always that way. and it will react rationally. If if there's unionization, it's going to have to assess whether as a result of that it can still be profitable. That will guide its decision.

[00:14:02]>> And and what do we what what happens if if if you know we don't see these workers protected in a better way. What what is at risk if the drivers continue to drive in bigger cities in Canada without the protections you've talked about this morning?

[00:14:16]>> Well, there's the impact to the drivers and delivery people. Um there's no question about that. Um uh but I think it I think it's something larger than that. I think as a society to not do anything to provide assistance and better opportunities for people who drive for Uber, many of whom are recent immigrants to Canada, are vulnerable, um struggle economically, to just stand by and let the situation continue highly problematic from a societal p perspective.

[00:14:49]>> Okay, Michael Wright, we'll leave it there. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

[00:14:52]>> Thank you very much. Michael Wright is a labor lawyer at the Toronto law firm Wright Henry LLP. We did ask Uber for an interview. It declined, but did provide us with a statement from Laura Miller, the head of public policy and communications for Uber Canada. It says, quote, "We're pleased that drivers have voted to ratify this agreement. It reflects months of constructive goodfaith discussions and protects the flexibility drivers value. This is not a traditional agreement. It's designed for how drivers actually work, and there is no change to how drivers use the Uber app today. This is part of an ongoing process as we learn what works best for drivers, balancing flexibility with representation and tailored benefits.

[00:15:33]>> You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway.

[00:15:36]Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.