Hope Talks - Wywiad z Ursulą Bühlmann

Ajouté : 2026-05-25

[00:00:10]that.

[00:00:15]Hello everyone. Good morning.

[00:00:18]Uh welcome. We are very happy uh to have you with us today for this special conversation organized by the child and youth therapy section of PSTR and today's meeting is dedicated to solution focused brief therapy in work with children adolesccents and families and especially to the creative respectful and deeply collaborative ways to approach we can support young people.

[00:00:52]Our guest today is Dr. Ursula Bulman from Switzerland. Hello Ursula.

[00:00:59]>> Hi everyone.

[00:01:02]>> Yeah. And and let me introduce our guests uh because we have a we are honored today to welcome you and share your knowledge. Um, is solution focused uh therapy, supervisor, coach, trainer and originally child and adolescent psychiatrist. Usola has worked with children, young people, adults and families for more than 20 years. In her writing and teaching, she emphasizes something very important that children and adolesence often carry extraordinary ideas for solutions. ideas adults might never think of themselves and that meaningful work begins with listening carefully and taking young people seriously. Many of us also know from her inspiring trainings.

[00:01:57]I was attending one myself like I think years ago in Amsterdam.

[00:02:04]uh and she combines solution focused practice with creativity, movement, metaphor, sensory experience and strong sensitivity relationships and neurobiology.

[00:02:18]Uh we are truly delighted and honored to have you here with us today. Thank you for accepting our invitation.

[00:02:27]Would you like to add anything and would like to share something more with our audience?

[00:02:34]I think that's it. Um the only idea that I have because I'm working since yeah over 30 years now beginning just to be a little bit older. Um things that we are discussing could also give maybe some ideas for adults. Um so it's not only for children and adolesccents but some ideas are also very well working with adults for example in therapy in coaching and yeah so maybe there will be people also working with adults that will have some ideas yeah how they can use these ideas also for adults.

[00:03:23]so much. So maybe I will now hand over to my uh colleague Kasha Vernach who will give who will guide us through this conversation. So I will leave you two alone so that you can uh you can talk.

[00:03:39]Um okay >> thank you Sufka and hello Ushula and hello everyone who is watching us. Uh it is so wonderful to have you here with us. U we are extremely grateful that you have agreed to have this recording for our solution focus community in Poland.

[00:04:04]It's also an honor for me because you know so impressed what the solution folks community is doing in Poland. So wow really impressive and thank you for the invitation.

[00:04:21]>> Yeah. So uh first we were wondering if you could share with us how did you first discover solution focus approach and what made you choose this approach as your way of working?

[00:04:36]Yeah, it's an interesting story because I um when I had my first child um I changed from hospital and I thought ah hospitals with all this hierarchy and things it's not really very nice and by coincidence I came to a team in child and adolescent psychiatry already working solution focused And there yeah I saw some books from Steve and Insu and I really had no idea by about psychiatry. So I was the not knowing psychiatrist in the team and that was wonderful because then I saw ooh it's an approach that fits me perfectly and I also had the impression yeah that it fits the ideas fit perfectly to children and adolescent and yeah then with a colleague um yeah I went to Germany Hidleberg and saw Steve for several times and yeah was falling in love with the approach and that was I think 19 93 or something like that. So it's a long time ago.

[00:06:02]>> Wow.

[00:06:05]>> Amazing. And you talk about the fit with the therapists and fit with with the group that you're working with with children and so what is it about solution focused approach that feels especially helpful in in work with uh young people and children what makes it such a good fit for them?

[00:06:29]Yeah, I think children and adolescents they are really first interested in solutions. They are not really interested in why why I have a problem, why we have a problem. They are not interested in problems, but they are interested in the solutions and how it can can get better a little bit. So, and um and that's one of the reasons why I think that the approach fits perfectly and um yeah anyway with children you can't talk that long anyway and the the language skills are not yet um that developed. So anyway, you have to be shorter or you have to use other communications with them. And adolescence anyway.

[00:07:25]Yeah. Anyway, they normally they don't come um they don't come yeah by themselves to therapy for example. So anyway you you have to find ways to yeah to get in contact with them. Um and I think the solution folks approach fits perfectly because it's talking about solutions. It's talking about exceptions.

[00:07:50]It's talking about resources and really let the expertise at the client and that's yeah these are reasons why I have the impression that the the approach fits perfectly for this age.

[00:08:08]>> Yeah. because they feel empowered like and they they have influence on what's going on in the therapeutic office >> and they have the best they have the best ideas you know about solutions but you have to listen to them and you have to ask them um and but they have the best ideas for for the solutions >> but still you mentioned about uh teenagers adolescents who are not always entirely by their own choice in the therapeutic office. They were brought by parents who have this idea that sometimes we need to fix their um their children. So what helps you build a connection and cooperation with such a young person who's sometimes distant, silent or simply does not want to be there. Mhm. Yeah. So I think that's normal. Children and adolescents are always they don't come by themselves to therapy or coaching or something. So anyway it's um it's normal that at the beginning they normally don't want to be there or they come unwillingnessly.

[00:09:30]So yeah, but that's I think that's not a problem because if they realize that we are talking about things that are working and and things that are going well, they change a little bit.

[00:09:49]And of course with um adolescents it's sometimes even more challenging because sometimes they come and they don't talk talk or they say I don't know but I think it's quite normal and as I learned from Steve and inu so I learned from the founders Steve once said so okay there is a young there is yeah young people in your in your room so please value and have the idea wow that's great that you are here and don't expect them to talk and that helps me because I think okay they are here this is this is a good sign it's interesting and yeah sometimes and they don't talk a lot or a lot of I don't knows but yeah I think there are ideas how to deal with it and normally yeah normally if they realize that yeah that that you value that they are there and that you are interested in in their lives and their ideas.

[00:11:12]So yeah then sometimes or often or most of the time they can open a little bit and and yeah even co and anyway they cooperate they are here so it's a form of cooperation even if they don't talk and this helps me because then I don't have the idea I have to do things that they talk and they are here and that's it. And then we have a look at what works.

[00:11:48]>> Yeah. They're here. So, this is already a form of cooperation that they're present.

[00:11:54]>> Yeah. And that can be enough.

[00:11:59]>> Yeah.

[00:11:59]>> This relationship that we have already with the client because he's come to our office.

[00:12:06]>> Yeah.

[00:12:07]>> Yeah. And that helps me a lot because that that makes me no pressure that I have to bring them to talk. But I just can lean back and have a look at yeah how the conversation is going on or if we can do something I can be interested in their interests in their resources and sometimes then we are not talking but we are doing something.

[00:12:37]Yeah, I remember this from your training that with young people we often need to go beyond talking and to we we should reach towards images, metaphors like lived experience, the body work >> and I wonder what difference do you see when you bring those elements into your therapeutic office.

[00:13:02]Yeah, first of all, maybe I have to say that um normally client brings me to ideas what we could do other things than talking. So it's from the language and the conversation from the client that sometimes gives me an idea that we could do something.

[00:13:24]Um and of course always the client has to have the choice. So I am asking ah this comes to my mind maybe we could do that and and of course they have the choice to do something or not and then I think it's it makes a diff it can make a difference if we have been talking about something but also experiencing solutions and resources by um by other things by doing for example by drawing or by experiencing by with the whole body or doing something with clay def depending a little bit on the age and yeah my idea of course I'm coming a little bit from the medical part also so maybe I'm always looking a little bit of theory behind the solution for approach and I have a little bit the idea that if you experiencing if you are experiencing um solutions, resources and all these things by different um yeah by all senses by the whole body with different things not only by talking but only by doing or or pictures or something that maybe that could um arise new networks that would maybe make a difference in the future. So if the client goes out of my therapy room could be or I have a little bit little bit the idea that that could be um that could be helpful that the client can go on and that maybe there have be some new networks and whatever these are doing then afterwards I have no idea but yeah maybe this could help a little Yeah, I remember this also from your training. You talked about neurobiology.

[00:15:39]It's a neurobiology of change and when this change occurs also like you're saying through different channels like s sensory inputs from different channels >> does it have the chance to like to settle more into the brain networks?

[00:15:58]>> Yeah. And of course these are not only brain networks. So it's whole body, it's brain, it's environment and um yeah I I I like this theory also from embodiment. So that you are really so there is a brain or a mind and you have a body and there is a environment and they are so really influencing each other. So and um yeah and I have a little bit the idea that that can also make a difference. Um but it's not only brain it's whole body and of course for example if I'm doing something different this influences also my environment and my system >> and it's also a systemic view. So if I'm doing like that and then someone is reacting like that and that's that has influence on myself also. So our but these are all these different levels um that we are talking about for example in solution box approach but maybe also we can doing as if or we can make role plays or we can draw and have pictures that fit with the solution movements and it's also a lot of fun I think and it's not only fun maybe for the clients but also for me and myself.

[00:17:29]>> Oh yes, this is so important to make a therapy fun for them.

[00:17:37]>> Um, we were also wondering um, did you notice anything characteristic about therapeutic work with children and adolescence in Switzerland? Could you briefly outline the cultural context for us that might influence how young people and families approach therapy over there?

[00:17:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's a big difference between Poland, Switzerland or whole Europe. I think um the systems are quite similar. But what in Switzerland we are seeing is that and I think it's a little bit in Europe maybe over Europe also that maybe since the pandemic but maybe also before the pandemic that young people, children, young people have a little bit more um they are a little bit more anxious. They have a lot of sorrow about things about what is going on on the world about the climate things and um so we have we already had a lot of work um before but since some years we really have even more to do and yeah so there I think it's nice if we are doing short so if we are making brief therapy For example, when we are working in therapy field, if we are doing group therapy with different people and if we are doing this solution focused, it's a lot of fun because then we have in a group we have a lot of um experts. they can help and influence each other and yeah I think we have to we we try to make it a little bit bit more efficiently so briefer and but I think this is a this is a topic that you also have in in Poland and and yeah and for me I have a little bit the idea that we could >> we should have more solution focused um people working just I say on the street you know in in cities just near the schools near the families because you know and if someone is coming to psychiatrist normally there have been a lot of things happening and going to a therapist is a big step, but going to someone like um who is just one of your neighbors or is in the school or is in family centers, it's much easier and and the steps aren't that big. So I think um we are looking a little bit for more um for things that are nearer by people and there are some very interesting um things going on here. For example, a colleague that I have who is working solution focused with families. Um she's in cooperation with a supermarket and in a supermarket I think once a month >> she's in different supermarkets on Saturday morning and there she is um working with parents from young people. So then uh young children. So the children they are playing or eating breakfast and and the parents can ask questions or can discuss a little bit together and my colleague is like supervising a little bit or is is just having these conversations in a solution focused way. And that's these are interesting corporations because it's very near by people and not and not this big step you have to go to someone in a practice and then I have to talk and yeah and this in Switzerland we are trying to do a little bit more but it goes slowly. It's such a wonderful prevention and I love this idea of these um um a little group work with families in the supermarket and I think we should adopt it for our section.

[00:22:22]>> Yeah.

[00:22:23]>> So wonderful really >> or we are trying we are there is another project um we have a little bit the idea to make um streets of hope it's called.

[00:22:36]So um we have near the practice practice we have a street there aren't um bicycles no cars it's just for pedestrians and also with another supermarket we try to make something like street of hope so that on a on a Saturday or on a Sunday families can come children can make drawings you know on the read >> about hope and maybe make collections for some institutions or and then spending money for for some institutions or yeah some children care care um things and this is what we are trying to do at the moment. It's a lot of work because supermarkets aren't used to do that these things. But I think it could be a wonderful idea also to cooperate um very nearby people >> and as you're saying it's um maybe this prevents somebody at certain stage to uh maybe there won't be as much need for psychiatrist then >> yeah that would be nice >> people >> if there for more of us in the streets.

[00:24:09]>> Yeah.

[00:24:10]>> Yeah. Thank you. Well, it's such a great inspiration. But as a final takeaway for our listeners, um is there a favorite tool, exercise, or book that you would especially recommend for professionals working with children and young people?

[00:24:29]>> Yeah, of course. I'm really um I love these books from Terz Steiner and the one she wrote with Insu um is is the first one. It's a children's solution work and um it's a wonderful book. So, and Teres Steiner wrote a second book, but at the moment I think it's um just in German and and not in English, but I always hope that she will make this English um translation. It's in German it's called um Malen.

[00:25:06]So in English it's just suppose and these two books are really really wonderful books to work with children and adolescence in different environments in schools in also social worker environment and and and with a lot of practical exercises and ideas and yeah ideas also if you're stuck a little bit and if it's difficult and yeah so these two books are really yeah are my my most important books that I'm working with and of course there are a lot of wonderful exercises that I learned from different people and something that I mo make almost every time in the in a first session it's a very easy.

[00:26:07]It's not it's not even an exercise. So, it's like I have a collection of different pictures and it has to be pictures, no letters or something. And then you let people choose a picture that fits with the solution. So in the first session we have been talking about solutions, best hopes, when it's doing when it's going a little bit better and then I let people choose a picture that fits to the solution or to the day it goes a little bit better or to the miracle. So, and I make a copy of the picture and laminate it and then they can take it at home. And then we are looking if they have an idea of a little movement >> um that fits to the picture so that you could have the picture at home. You could be remembered maybe a little bit what we have been talking about.

[00:27:13]>> Mhm.

[00:27:14]>> And maybe um you have little movements that you can use that fits to the picture or to the solution because sometimes in everyday life you need very fast um fast things that maybe help you change a little bit something. And as pictures and also movement work very very fast. Yeah, I have a little bit the idea maybe it's helping sometimes to remember the miracle or the it's better and and maybe in some situations that we have been talking about you can use this picture or you can use a little movement or and maybe that could help. Yeah. to that things could change and without working a lot. So sometimes I have the idea that if people have work to work a lot in their everyday life then it's also very hard for them. But a picture is like okay I don't have to do anything else than just remembering the picture maybe or to make a little movement. So >> yeah, as it's so easy to have this picture always like in a wallet or in a pocket >> and the movement well we always have access to our body. So these are amazing tokens to have outside of the therapeutic office for a client.

[00:28:51]>> Yeah. And I have a little bit the idea.

[00:28:55]Yeah. Steven Insu they have they have been talking about tasks at the end of for example of a session and normally I don't do tasks um anymore but this is something like that people could take with them it's like to try out something with without having a task but with having a picture or a little movement. So >> Mhm.

[00:29:26]>> And as you were saying, these would also work with adults.

[00:29:31]>> Yeah, of course.

[00:29:32]>> Thank you >> for this wonderful idea and and and thank you for this interview, Ursula. I feel so inspired. I feel like my head is bursting with ideas. Uh thanks to you.

[00:29:48]Uh so I handing over to Suavka. Thank you both. Thank you very much, Kasha.

[00:29:55]Thank you for the Inime I was my shelf because it's also one of my favorites.

[00:30:03]So, I was you know smiling from year to year that I have it on my shelf and it was one of my first social focus books and it stayed of like one of my favorites. So, I'm glad you mentioned that.

[00:30:18]>> Um, thank you so much. I was listening and I was smiling constantly. you couldn't see me but and I was c catching myself like oh yeah so that's so awesome and I hope we hope that this conversation leaves uh our audience our listeners uh with new inspirations and ideas uh for for for the practice and encourage encourages to continue create to create spaces streets districts or maybe even cities of hope uh where young people can feel seen and heard and capable of doing things they didn't think they could be in their life. Thank you so much Kasha for asking question. Thank you so much for again for your time and inspirations for for for Polish audience.

[00:31:19]Thank you >> and At the beginning you said maybe I have some ideas about workshops or things that you could do and of course as I have been um for a long time in the board of the EBTA so the European Brief Therapy Association >> um yeah I have to say come to EBTA conferences for example or I know in Poland you have a lot of of conferences solution focused conferences and Um yeah and also there are a lot of interesting workshops. I think I will be in Poland for example in December in Wu again with um Yachk um or >> yeah and sometimes I'm with Marta and and with Marta and yeah you have a lot of inspiring people in Poland also and yeah for me of course EBTA if you want go a little beyond um branches and really have nice connections with people in Europe and abroad. Yeah. So, try to go to a to a conference um to a EBTA conference or just join us next Saturday at 11 um for 90 minutes. It's a meet and learn from EB organized from EBTA with Jonas Wells from Sweden. So yeah, have a look at homepage of of EBTA and have a look at there are always nice little connections and networking and Yeah.

[00:33:07]>> Thank you so much.

[00:33:08]>> You're doing amazing job with ED.

[00:33:11]Yeah, it's really and it's so it's a really expanded family, you know, it's such a wonderful atmosphere always and it's it's a wonderful group of people coming together sometimes and um yeah and a lot to learn also and yeah at the next conference the next conference is in um >> yeah and yeah comment didn't see me there. So I'm doing a workshop about a training that we are doing with so it's called creative um children therapy.

[00:33:50]It's about the solution focused approach um with children and adolescents and families and but there are a lot of interesting things to learn there and meet wonderful people. So yeah, if it's possible come really to the EBTA conference in September.

[00:34:09]So I can see you there and all of our audience is uh cordally invited because we're pretty close. Uh it's not going to be such a trouble to commute there. So hopefully we'll meet you there in person.

[00:34:24]>> Yeah, that would be wonderful.

[00:34:26]Okay, thank you so much fora