He’s Changing How Barn Homes Are Built

Added: 2026-05-31

[00:00:00]Well, hey everybody, it's Mike with Spray Jones and I'm at the National Frame Builders Association. First time I've been on invite with Paul Marshall down here to come speak about spray foam and look who I run into. I run into Joshua Helm of that Texas Best Barn Dominions and this is really a treat, really a pleasure. We're going to sit down and talk and shoot our mouths off about spray foam. You're going to bring me up to speed on what you guys have been experiencing with your projects and we'll talk shop a little bit and practical about what people need to know when they're building a barndominium.

[00:00:29]There's a lot of decisions to be made and Joshua and I were just talking about we don't want to be in lawsuits, we don't want to be in litigation, but we also don't we want longevity products, right? Resiliency to be built in better choices. So >> Yeah, Mike. Man, my pleasure. Longtime fan.

[00:00:43]>> Yeah?

[00:00:44]>> And I I've had the opportunity to be gleaning some off of yours and Paul's conversations.

[00:00:51]But yeah, this is a great conference, the National Frame Builders Association, which has kind of brought us together.

[00:00:56]And now, one thing that's unique about what we do in our areas, we primarily build like a hybrid steel frame, which is a little bit different than this conference kind of represents.

[00:01:06]>> Right. Now, where is your area in Texas?

[00:01:08]>> We are just south of Dallas in the Red Oak area, but we work like a 100-mi radius.

[00:01:16]>> Yeah, okay.

[00:01:16]>> So, we have just a lot of work going on, but primarily the mix is we'll be building turnkey barndominium homes mixed with shop space. A lot of that is our what I call hybrid steel frame. We have a few different options. We do a hybrid steel. I have a term called an advanced hybrid steel, which is building with an envelope for the ZIP system on the complete outer shell. And then, I do a all post frame build option, which is a rapid frame, which kind of brings me to this conference here.

[00:01:49]>> So, what's the hybrid system? It's steel frame with wood sheathing or I'm just guessing.

[00:01:55]>> So, primarily our our standard hybrid steel frame builds are a free span steel roof structure.

[00:02:02]>> Okay.

[00:02:02]>> So, we build all of our roof structure with the steel. And so, we'll have the vertical columns. And then, our outer shell will be stud bayed with 2 by 6 studded walls. So, wood framed.

[00:02:13]>> Okay.

[00:02:14]>> That that's the the hybrid portion is where we're at.

[00:02:16]>> frame walls, steel superstructure roof.

[00:02:19]So, then the roof would be supported by massive steel columns and what have you.

[00:02:24]>> purlins.

[00:02:25]>> Yeah.

[00:02:25]>> So, my advanced frame is the same thing.

[00:02:27]What I call the advanced hybrid steel is the same thing, but we break our overhangs. We break that off and we attach those after the fact. And I do what uh Matt Risinger calls a monopoly framing where I take the zip system all the way up the walls and then I meet the roof lines with the zip system there.

[00:02:45]>> outside.

[00:02:46]>> Giving us a complete air barrier around the whole build.

[00:02:49]>> Okay. So, when you're using the zip sheeting, how have you been insulating them right now? What's your tactics been this far?

[00:02:55]>> So, on our standard hybrid steel framing, our roof lines are really the point of contention, right? Cuz I'm trying to offset any concerns of condensation with the steel cuz it's going to be directly exposed to my lower heated and cooled areas. You know, we we have what we would call in Texas ventilated attics. So, we have our air conditioning systems are up there. And then, a lot of times we'll actually ventilate these attic spaces.

[00:03:19]>> So, you make an attic space actually in the steel building. So, it's got what?

[00:03:24]Flat ceiling and then sloped roof and it's using some type of a metal truss system to make it that way?

[00:03:29]>> Yeah, it's the it's those steel purlins that give us that free span, which is some of the real advantages of building a barndominium, right? So, without taking that away, we like to utilize like in our great rooms, keeping those vaults in there. So, a lot of times the underneath portion of that we will first strip those with like a 2 by 4 stud in the big vaulted areas and that will remain open. So, those are some of the advantages for a barndominium in the first place. But, in the areas like over a bedroom, we'll we'll retain that space for mechanical areas, and that will be essentially climate controlled as well.

[00:04:06]>> Right. That's where closed-cell spray foam works the best. I like it in direct contact with the metal. I don't like having a wrap. Wraps wrinkle, even when you've got a really good one, they wrinkle, they sag, and the spray foam condensing and cooling, not condensing, but cooling can contract and pull the foam pull them pull the wrap downward.

[00:04:23]And now you've got you've got a cavity bellying down underneath the roof deck, and it can create problems. So, I like to have the spray foam in direct contact with the metal. And yeah, it makes it more difficult if there's hail damage or something like that to remove it, but that's the point. You want resiliency and longevity. In fact, we've seen buildings where the spray foam is in direct contact with the metal hold up to hail a lot better than if it wasn't.

[00:04:45]>> Yeah.

[00:04:45]>> Right, cuz it's adding a rigidity. And uh you know, we've had really good success with that. And I always encourage people like, "Look, if that is your number one concern, because I come from like the roofing industry, >> Yeah.

[00:04:57]>> so I tell them I'm like, "Look, there's a flue filler you could put on top of an R panel, >> Yeah.

[00:05:02]>> and you could use that as a new surface, use that roof as a deck, first strip it, run standing seam if you want, a whole different roof system up there. Just for a little cosmetic damage, I would just convert it to a deck system and move on.

[00:05:17]>> Mhm.

[00:05:17]>> You know, I I wouldn't be worried about removing the roof.

[00:05:20]>> why why is the barndominium thing so popular right now? Why is it taken off to the point where it's it's got this whole it's a whole new building style, not new, but it's a whole it's really caught a lot of momentum, and it's not going anywhere. It's not a trendy fad, it's actually something that's sticking around. Why?

[00:05:36]>> I think it's for the potential of high efficiency. It kind of goes hand in hand with the spray foam. Like, we in Texas, it's a really popular thing. If you're building a barndominium, genuinely speaking, most people are using spray foam. Problem lies is where they don't maybe use it properly. And I know you're the guy >> Right.

[00:05:54]>> uh that can help us with that.

[00:05:56]>> Yeah.

[00:05:56]>> But number two, it's the durability of the structure itself, right? Keeping low maintenance on your build. So, all of the exterior you're you're most likely going to have like an exterior panel >> Mhm.

[00:06:07]>> that is uh s- metal and that can endure the test of time. Maybe wash it down, clean it from time to time, but no paint, right?

[00:06:16]>> Right.

[00:06:16]>> So, people that are looking to have a a very durable setup, low maintenance, high efficiency, this large space, you know, where they can park their ATVs, get out in the rural settings, get back to country. Uh that's usually what a lot of people are attracted to.

[00:06:31]>> There definitely is. I want a lot of space and I want a lot of open space.

[00:06:35]That's what I think of when I think of barndominiums. And then just sort of that back to country feel or what you would experience on a farm. I mean, some people are really appealed to it and other people, "Why would you want to live in a shop?" is what they tell me.

[00:06:46]You know, I don't I don't know if I want the shop look. Let's talk about condensation and spray foam. Why is spray foam so much more important? Like we're we're seeing people making compromises with batt insulation. And the issue with batt, it can batt work?

[00:06:58]Yes.

[00:06:58]>> Yeah.

[00:06:59]>> You need to take five or six usually extra steps to get the product to work.

[00:07:02]And there's nothing more for unforgiving than a metal structure in cold weather climate. Now, Texas, not so much. You're going to still can run into condensation issues heavily in the summertime with those 106 120 days that you hit and you've got the AC running at night. What I like with spray foam is bonded to the steel, fills all the cracks, keeps all the critters out. And what where we're seeing a a dramatic shift is that the structural rigidity that we're going to add to it, the flexibility on design where we can match any kind of complex or simplistic design and not figure out a secondary superstructure in order to support the insulation. The insulation is self-supporting. And now, we can actually deliver verified, certified, validated results. We've mixed the foam, it's gone on proper, you picked a good contractor, you picked a good foam.

[00:07:47]There are bad foams out there. So, don't cheap out with a cheap product. And then you get a contractor that can issue a validation report when you're done and prove the mix. I see that as being the real future of the industry of where we keep going. In Canada, post frame structure absolutely needs foam. Like you just cannot deal with the moisture problems in the cold weather climate otherwise. Well, I have a question for you, Mike, cuz you're the Spray Jones expert here.

[00:08:09]>> Okay.

[00:08:09]>> Um >> I do want to hear it.

[00:08:11]No, I do. Knock Knock me around here, Josh, because I like challenges. I really do.

[00:08:16]>> I mean, it's probably it's not going to be too challenging for you. As a builder in the Texas climate, I love spray foam.

[00:08:24]I do. We've had nothing but good success. You know, I always recommend people find the right contractor, stick with them, pay them. Pay them.

[00:08:32]>> [laughter] >> Be willing to pay what they're asking, yeah.

[00:08:34]>> Yeah, I mean, and and have a good relationship. And and we've been fortunate in that to have very good experience. But, what are some of the things that as a consumer, ultimately, cuz we're purchasing this, what are some things that we should look for? And what are some things that would maybe take us to the extra level of maybe protection when it comes to the mix and understand a little bit more about spray foam itself, you know?

[00:08:57]>> Great questions. So, the first thing that I guess I'd get into is that open or closed cell. Open cell foam is a wonderful product. It's the single best product for acoustical properties, sound transmission classes. The reason being is low density, takes out the widest bandwidth of frequency of Hertz. The problem with open cell foam is that it has reservoir capability. It's open cells. So, these cells are interconnected and can absorb moisture and transfer moisture from one side of it to the next. Now, some people will sit there and say, "Yeah, but don't you want your water to leak in if you knew you had a roof leak, don't you want it?"

[00:09:31]No, no, no, not necessarily. That thing could have been soaking it up like a sponge for weeks or months before it reaches saturation point and gets too heavy that it has to let it out. So, we want to be really careful about pairing up open cell in metal buildings. There's a correct order of operations and we need to weather protect it. I don't like it having it on a single plane of existence where all that's responsible is some flashing, some tape, and some metal, not tape, but glue, screws, and the fasteners with screws or hidden fasteners. And if it gets past that, it's into the foam. The foam then can hold it and then now we've got degradation, the building breaking down.

[00:10:07]Okay? So, therefore, open cell foam is a great product, but I think the better better choice is to go closed. Now, closed, the vapor barrier is always on the correct side, inside, outside. It doesn't have any reservoir capability.

[00:10:19]It's less than 8% open cells. You can hose it down with a garden hose from inside to out. It's not going to absorb the water. It has immense amount of structural support. Now, the one thing we got to make sure that we do is we pick our time of the day, we get a heavier gauge metal. We got super light metals that are coming out of China right now. These are very economical. 30 gauge is nothing but problems. 28 gauge, nothing but problems. We start to get back into 26, down into 25 and lower.

[00:10:45]All right, now we've got enough structural rigidity that there should be no reason to warp the metal with 2-lb closed density cell foam.

[00:10:54]>> I'm glad you brought that up.

[00:10:55]>> Because we can lay it down on a 2-in layer and not warp it. It is capable of doing it. I've done it myself. I've done a 12,000 sq ft 38-ft tall metal steel building. You could not tell that building was sprayed from the outside.

[00:11:09]It did not warp it. If you play this cheap, if you choose a building package that your gauge is set low, you're starting off the race way behind. Okay?

[00:11:19]Now, can you can you do this? You can.

[00:11:21]Now, I want to talk about flashing and batting here for a second cuz the guys who come in and they're going to sit there and say, "Well, let's just put on an ultra-thin layer of closed cell spray foam. I'll flash it with a with a half inch of foam and I'll let that firm up.

[00:11:33]Now, here's what's going on when that happens, okay? Cellular plastics, open and closed cell, are dependent on heat in order to convert from a liquid state to a gaseous state and puff them open and make foam. So, when you put the product onto the metal in a very thin state, you're not converting all of the blowing agent in the cells from a liquid to a gas. So, you now have a latent, dormant problem lingering in the molecular makeup of the cell structure, which is unconverted blowing agent. So, what does the blowing agent like to respond to? Heat. So, if you have a very hot substrate and you can convert all of the blowing agent, fine, it will convert and you will make proper cellular plastics cellular plastic that is dimensionally stable. You don't have improper dwarfed cells, didn't fully make a properly dimensionally stable foam. It will then stay in place and be okay. But, you're running the roulette wheel on this one, okay? So, let's say that you call me to book your building.

[00:12:29]It's a cool morning, a little bit cooler than normal. We got to get this done.

[00:12:32]You know, the Joneses are out of town this week. We really want to get this sprayed. And I go to do a flash coat and it's cool outside. Maybe it's a 50° morning, okay? What's going on is we just sucked the heat out of that foam that should have gone into making that proper cell structure and we've warmed the substrate up. Metal is 400 times more conductive than wood. So, it's going to suck and heat sink that material in there. That foam is not going to have an unconverted, fully converted blowing agent. That blowing agent's going to stay dormant in the cells and here's what's going to happen, Joshua.

[00:13:00]>> Yeah.

[00:13:01]>> When we get sunlight beating down on that roof deck, on that wall, on a nice Texas morning and it's now 80, 90, or 140 out in direct sunlight, what's going to happen is that metal is going to warm up, it's going to transfer that heat into the spray foam, and that was the heat that got sucked out into the cold metal that cold morning, and what's it going to do? Going to kick and start that blowing agent. We get we call that post growth. So, all of a sudden that wall was nice and flat and now all of a sudden it tried to blow out a little bit more. Tried to finish what it started, but wasn't allowed to because it was too cold. And that's why you get this oil canning after the factory. You phoned me up and say, "Look, he came and sprayed it. It was smooth 2 months ago. Now it's not smooth. What the heck is going on?"

[00:13:42]Well, one, check your gauge, how thin a gauge. But two, if you flashed it, you I'm not saying it's going to happen every single time, but you put yourself into the roulette wheel of right climatic conditions, >> Yeah.

[00:13:55]>> dwarfed cells, and now you've got post growth and warped edge.

[00:13:58]>> And and where do you see mostly people have that kind of problem? Is that with the thinner gauge?

[00:14:03]>> Thinner gauge for sure.

[00:14:05]>> Yeah. So what like 29 gauge?

[00:14:07]>> 29 gauge, very few structural purlins to restrain it properly. They're using cheaper fasteners. They're already set up to fail. They're already set up to have a problem. They've already found the lower bidder, and nobody's looking for this problem to show up.

[00:14:19]>> I learned that actually on my very first build for myself.

[00:14:24]>> Oh, no.

[00:14:25]>> [laughter] >> And that's the way That's the best way, you know, but ultimately it was one of the deals I I hired a guy to come in help me do this project. And after the fact, after it got spray foam, he said, "Oh, well, if you'd have told me you were going to spray foam it, we would have added more fasteners."

[00:14:41]>> Really?

[00:14:41]>> Because, you know, he was putting the one on you know, and it and it and it bulged down and it created this warping.

[00:14:48]And I'm like, "You knew I was going to spray foam this." But anyways, it was kind of regret setting right away. But, you know, that is a possibility.

[00:14:56]>> And there's no way to fix it once it happens. So, I guess what I would say to people is this, on the building side, choose a more robust building. Do not get into this 29, and certainly not 30 gauge. Get back down into the mid to upper 20s.

[00:15:09]>> Right.

[00:15:09]>> Okay? Uh galvanized should probably be primed. Zinc is tough to stick to. You can stick to it, but I really like to hit it up with a Sherwin-Williams speed primer, something like that, and an ammonia etching primer. Just takes the glaze off of the uh the zinc, gets better adhesion. Uh choose whether it's open cell, closed cell, pick the time of day, don't be in a rush to get it sprayed, okay? If it's a super cool morning, chase the sun, follow the sun around, maybe warm the building up, bring in some frost fighters, some indirect fired heaters, warm that metal up. Spray foam loves metal. You're also going to cause the building to expand with it being Otherwise, it's contracting, you're hearing it tinkle tinkle, move around as it's getting cool. Warm the building up, spray foam loves heat.

[00:15:51]>> Yeah.

[00:15:51]>> And then choose a high-quality foam. You can actually check the data sheets, dimensional stability. Not all foams are created equally. There are people that are making comprom- Just like you can make a compromised building package that's just got a lot of budget-friendly things. You can have a budget-friendly raw material spray foam where it might do some things at a later date. So, I want to choose a proven track record closed-cell foam. Uh and then lastly, I want to get a contractor out that's got the validation equipment that can prove what went on so that we've got a way of not getting into a he said, she said.

[00:16:21]>> you talk to me about that because you did say with the technologies and where the future is headed with spray foam?

[00:16:27]Tell us what's happening with that with the market.

[00:16:30]>> Well, the number one thing is the spray foam industry understands right now that chemistry-wise with HFO blown foams, there's a blowing agent in closed-cell foam that goes from a liquid to a gas.

[00:16:40]That gas is trapped in the cells of the foam. That's your insulating. Just like you got triple-pane windows or dual-pane windows, what's the insulation in them?

[00:16:46]Argon. You're using an inert gas. You're using an inert gas in the foam. The current gas formulation that were mandated to use by the EPA, all right, causes us to have to choose premier catalyst, premier surfactant, pre-pre- premier products, right, to stabilize it and keep it well in place, all right?

[00:17:04]So, you have to find a supplier that is not fighting on price, they're fighting on high-quality, longevity, dimensionally stable foams. That's a box number one check. Number two, you get a contractor that's been around doing this for a little while, they've got some expertise, they've got some training, they've got some verification on what they do. That's box number two. Box three, equipment. All right, there's a big shift right now away from analog gear. Can analog gear spray foam properly? Absolutely. I've done it. I've done it for 20 years. There's nothing wrong with it. Here's the issue that is really wrong with it. All right?

[00:17:34]Meaning, it will make foam. Okay? All right? The people that use it aren't bad people. The issue that we've got is that how do I prove to Joshua Helm, how do I prove to his clients, how do I prove to myself, how do I prove to your clients that we've made proper cellular plastic?

[00:17:49]You can't do it, okay? You cannot prove what the air-to-fuel ratio is on a carburetor, but you can with fuel injection, okay? So, we've got digital sensors, they're monitoring the mix, you got 1/100 of a second going through the chamber. So, we just want to prove that while we're mixing it, while we're spraying it, the foam that we've laid on the wall because the final product is what we make coming out of the end of the gun, right? You're not paying for drum A and drum B, you're paying for the combined product that's on the wall.

[00:18:14]That's the longevity product, the legacy product you're looking for. We've got to be able to prove what went on. Prove that it was mixed, prove it's on ratio.

[00:18:20]Now, if we do that, it's dimensionally stable, yeah, it's not going to off-gas, it's not going to create sick home syndrome and all this other stuff. Ooh, my my foam is off-gassing, it's making us sick, we think there's an odor, all this sort of stuff. And now, I can issue you a report, the client a report, and everybody knows that box is finally checked, and we can move on to assembling the project. This is the rightful seat the spray foam has to take because we are the final manufacturer.

[00:18:45]>> Now, is that like a one-time purchase or is that like a something that is going to add ongoing cost?

[00:18:51]>> No, it's a one-time purchase. It's basically like you walked in and you asked for your car to have fuel injection as opposed to carburation, and now from here on forward, you don't have to go It's not that this causes unnecessary expense. In fact, the equipment, I'm going to dispel this right here right now. The equipment is the same price as getting equipment that's analog, okay? So, you You you can you can weigh it out. If you're going to go shop around right now, the other thing is you can get analyst equipment on to retrofitted on to pre-existing equipment. You don't have to go and spend a million dollars or three hundred thousand dollars to retrofit all of your current gear. You can get analysts from Accurate Dynamics. Accurate Dynamics is right in Houston, Texas, founded by Trey Cook. He's an ex-fracking guy. He eventually sold one of his companies to the company that bought it was Halliburton. So he knows down hole technology. He knows verification. He knows tracking what they're doing and how they're doing. Oil and gas industry >> folks is the best at proving what where they are and what they've done and what they're pulling out of the ground. So they're taking that technology and that ethos and bringing it to the spray foam industry to prove the cellular plastic that we're making.

[00:19:53]>> I really like that. I really appreciate you sharing all that information cuz there are probably people watching that have older equipment.

[00:20:00]>> Yep.

[00:20:01]>> You know, and thinking, well, it's cost money you know to do this.

[00:20:05]>> Yeah, you can update it.

[00:20:06]>> But that's great.

[00:20:07]>> You can update it with an analyst. The analyst isn't going to control it, but the analyst is going to analyze it. And then you can make a decision from there if you want to step into a Ferrari. But I want to be clear, you can make proper cellular plastic with analog gear. You can, okay? It's just we're offering the prove it start phase.

[00:20:24]>> it.

[00:20:25]>> And and I think that we don't want anecdotal evidence. Like here's the thing, if I come and spray Texas Best Barn Dominiums project, okay? I don't want to do post inspections on the spray foam everywhere to be the the first and only way of determining if everything's right.

[00:20:41]>> Right.

[00:20:41]>> I want the gear to tell me I'm on proper check right here right now and then Joshua can say, well, Mike, you sprayed for seven days at my job.

[00:20:51]>> Yeah.

[00:20:52]>> Okay? How do I know that every hour, every minute of every day? Cuz you only tested five spots in my barn though.

[00:20:59]>> Right.

[00:20:59]>> Well, you didn't test every 12,000 square feet.

[00:21:02]>> Right.

[00:21:02]>> Okay, well, with the digital equipment I can. And I don't mean to harp on this.

[00:21:05]It's just that people have objections to what we're doing and we can silence the naysayers, but most importantly, we're providing protection.

[00:21:14]>> It's It's the prove me theory for spray foam. It's It's long time needed. So, I think that's awesome. So, uh you know, as much as we love spray foam, it's also something that we've got to manage when it comes to risk.

[00:21:27]>> Right.

[00:21:27]>> It's something that like for me, our flashing details, the way that I even go about building my frame.

[00:21:33]>> Yes.

[00:21:34]>> I try to prevent spray foam from coming out into you know, metal buildings can be inherently leaky. You know, if you >> I would say that they are leaky unless you take steps [laughter] to make them not.

[00:21:47]>> That's right. That's right. And so, for me, a lot of the style and the way that the the particulars, the intentional ways that we build are to protect ourselves from spray foam now coming out of the building.

[00:22:01]>> Yes.

[00:22:01]>> Or pushing my wall panel out, creating seepage issues that are going to cause leaks that wouldn't otherwise be there.

[00:22:08]>> Correct. So, spray foam when it's boxed in on four sides can create 44 PSI of force.

[00:22:15]>> Yeah.

[00:22:16]>> All right. So, we're lifting We're seeing the slab lifting guys, right? The concrete lifting guys. They're lifting the driveway, the concrete in the sidewalks with the spray foam. So, So, think about this for a minute.

[00:22:26]>> That's right.

[00:22:27]>> Why not restrain the assembly in the wall, the studs, the steel, the flashing? So, I had a guy that had a a stud.

[00:22:35]>> Yeah.

[00:22:35]>> And we where we are, we use a sheathing staples. We use a staple that's about yay long. It's coated, comes out of a special gun, a sheathing stapler, and they down the wall. Okay? That guy got midway down the wall and missed the stud. He was barely on the edge to begin with, but as he got further down, he missed it. All right? So, half of it's restrained and half of it's not. We spray foam that stud bay and guess what the closed-cell spray foam did? Hold that stud like this.

[00:22:59]>> Yeah.

[00:23:00]>> Over where it wasn't physically restrained.

[00:23:02]So >> the spray foam will move the building around if the building isn't restrained.

[00:23:08]And I want to talk about wraps for a second.

[00:23:10]>> Yeah.

[00:23:10]>> Because wraps are good when used properly, not on a roof cuz we don't want to belly them out. We said that earlier. But you've got there's some premium products that we've seen at the show. The Block It guys are out here.

[00:23:20]They've got a product that isn't going to break down over time coming in contact with surfactants. I think you need to have a really good drainage system to the outside. It needs to be pulled taut. It needs to be properly restrained itself. And then you need to have a product where it's going to adhere and stay stuck. Cuz when spray foam gets onto a substrate that's wishy-washy and it's moving around and it doesn't want to stay the back end of the foam the back end of the foam is looking for something to bond to.

[00:23:44]>> Mhm.

[00:23:45]>> Okay? It's not meant to just sit in the air. We don't spray it to an air film.

[00:23:49]We spray it to a substrate. So when that substrate is moving and shaking and moving around and pulling and gapping, guess what? The back end isn't going to want to set up properly and do its thing. So you're you're compromising the overall 3 in or 2 in of the foam that you're trying to buy. You're making sure that that first quarter inch is questionable. So you've reintroduced roulette wheel again of how well do I have a void? Do I have a a cavity? Is that somewhere where the bugs can get into the carpenter ants can get into the moisture can get into. And those things love moisture. So if the moisture is residing in there first, then it brings all the other things in.

[00:24:22]>> That's uh for us as a turnkey barndominium builder has been that has been a big concern of ours obviously.

[00:24:30]What I like to do like in my shop areas, I treat that like it's a different structure >> Right.

[00:24:35]>> than I do my living area.

[00:24:37]>> to.

[00:24:37]>> And so we want to create a complete envelope with our ZIP system on the outer area of the whole wall system for that living area treating it completely different than our shop space. And in our shop space where we have windows, doors, overhead doors, I like to run an additional steel purlin on a face around those windows just to create an extra barrier around those protections for the seams and I'll do that around our overhead doors, our walk-through doors, and every window. And then keep in mind that you still need to have some type of vapor or water-resistant barrier between your metal panel below those windows so you can create an additional >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Matt Risinger said it. He said that the building to the exterior should be 100% waterproof before the exterior is going up. Should be able to hose it down with a garden hose and not have the water penetrate.

[00:25:30]>> Cuz in our industry, in the barndominium industry, a lot of people rely on spray foam to be their water seal.

[00:25:37]>> No, that's not exactly I get it. I get that it can do it, but you're thinking about it once the criminal's already through the door. Right. You want to stop the criminal at the property line, right?

[00:25:49]>> They're like, "Oh, we'll just put some foam around that around that penetration." And and it might help with the air, but what it's going to do with air comes moisture, right? Like it's going to be inviting all of these elements into the house. And I've I've had so many horror stories. We run a barndominium group page called Building Barndominiums and there's like half a million people on there and there's constant just people that have water coming in the bottom of their walls.

[00:26:15]>> Yep.

[00:26:15]>> You know, some people are taking the practice to just take their steel frame, put some type of paper WRB on the outside, and then if they tape it really good, but that's supposed to hold your Like you said, how many pounds per >> Well, if you've got four sides to push against, uh, you can create 44 PSI force.

[00:26:34]>> So so I think those are all great points. It's a lot about the resistance that we try to prepare for when it comes to that protection for our living areas.

[00:26:44]Um, but I always tell people this all the time that they should totally treat the living area just like you would a conventional home. You need all the protections that you do. We've got our roof system up there, which is our number one opponent, but I don't have as many penetrations, right? So, I I have a a little bit better a little bit better results there, as long as I can get a good closed-cell >> Yeah, you can do a good closed-cell, and you can do a hybrid system with open-cell. You can do a closed, and then you can do a a an open on the inside for more sound. If you want to get into the hard-beating rain down on a metal roof.

[00:27:18]>> Yeah.

[00:27:18]>> But, what I would do is I would get it heat, air, and moisture tested. I'd get a hammer port done on it. They can do a very quick heat flow equation and figure out where the moisture and dew point.

[00:27:27]Just make sure it's not within the assembly. So, you have enough written perspective on spray foam, closed-cell, and then how much open. And I've used open on many situations with barndominiums just for sound.

[00:27:39]>> Yeah.

[00:27:39]>> So, they want to dampen down the transference of noise, particularly on a demising wall between the shop and the house. So, people will say, "Look, I had a guy who was in the oil and gas industry." He said, "Listen, 4,000 square feet is my shop. I'll be getting up at 4:00 in the morning, starting my diesel truck, going out to do" He was a downhole well consultant. But, he drove there, and he said, "I don't want my wife sleeping in the bed to hear it." I said, "Okay, fine. Then, what we're going to do is we'll we'll closed-cell just to get the and then we'll open-cell about 6 in thick." Now, it's 6 in thick of open-cell foam. You can get an STC, a sound transmission class. So, that's measuring the sound waves through of a 47 and higher. Now, so, to put this into perspective, once you get into the 40s, 41, 42, basically, you've got to shout in order to be heard. So, normal conversations are dampened at an STC 41, 42. So, these are hitting 45, 46, 47, even in situations 50, okay? At which point a loud TV is barely audible. So, the truck should be able to start, you're in the bedroom, you don't hear a thing. Also, I really advocate for proper HVAC design, okay? A lot of people are doing in-floor heat and then they're not doing a whole lot for HRV ERV. Get the building sealed up really well. Get the interior well and then create the space you want inside humidity and temperature wise. So that means V is ventilation. Get the HVAC balanced and designed. And you'd be surprised on your heat loads. Probably not going to need as many BTUs. So I've had people come in and say, "Look, we're going to do this much and it's totally oversized from day one." And the system barely runs. So they paid up front for larger equipment and put in more runs for things that just aren't running as as hard and as often. So that's something I would really encourage anybody to do. Spend the money on getting the system designed and then properly balanced.

[00:29:29]>> Absolutely. I would as well. And I I think not enough education is happening on that end because now we're building differently, right? We're building >> Yes.

[00:29:38]>> not with ventilated attics, but what we're building airtight structure.

[00:29:41]Meaning, okay, let's say we do all the proper things. We really do a great job.

[00:29:46]I mean, I did I did on one of my advanced builds, we did a blower door score of like a 0.63.

[00:29:53]>> That's normal. Yeah, you can get that.

[00:29:55]That's very achievable.

[00:29:56]>> And so and that was actually that was without insulation. I did that with the zip system.

[00:30:01]>> I believe it. I've seen it. Yep.

[00:30:02]>> And and so let's say you're you're doing that good of a job. Well, but now you got to think about air quality inside.

[00:30:10]So that's a whole different system, right? And and that's important as well to maintain fresh and all the things that you need inside.

[00:30:17]>> It's not it's not a foreign concept.

[00:30:19]Here's the thing. You we I flew here in an airplane. 35,000 ft pressurized capsule, right? And it's oxygen enriched air enriched and it they deal with heat, air, and moisture inside. They got 190 people inside the airplane tube, right?

[00:30:35]And they don't have water dripping down the walls and we're not all breathing each other's farts in. So uh people say to me, "Well, no, no, no, we don't want the building that tight."

[00:30:44]No, again, Matt Risinger said it, I say it, too. You get the building airtight and watertight, and then you get your interior space just like an airplane to handle the entire interior environment.

[00:30:53]Listen, we don't want Texas. I was down in Texas last August. It was 104 when I was in Fort Worth, okay?

[00:31:00]>> You came the best time.

[00:31:01]>> I did. And I was down we were down at the elephant white elephant bar there in Fort Worth, and and we did Cattleman's and all that. But, you you don't want to be exchanging that air into the inside.

[00:31:11]I don't want to leave that kind of outside environment moving at however it's going to do it. I want to be in control. I want to lock it out. Again, you stop the criminal way back at the end before it gets into the property, right? Not as it's getting through the property. And then get the HVAC system to be able to balance and handle it.

[00:31:28]Now, you're truly isolated, you're truly insulated, and you're in control of what's going on in the environment. This isn't rock This isn't so complicated, and it's our forethought or like two generations before, they didn't have this technology. So, as a result, the building had to allow the moisture that it was picking up to get gone.

[00:31:46]>> Yeah.

[00:31:46]>> Right? So, we can't import old-fashioned thinking and say, "Well, the building's got to breathe." It's like, well, we're One, it doesn't have lungs. Two, we're not letting all that water cycling in to get back out. We've got modern equipment that our grandparents just didn't have.

[00:31:59]>> It can be really optimized efficiently and and do a great job. And there And it's rethinking everything, right?

[00:32:05]Because now that I'm building this airtight structure, I'm going to be a little less likely to put a gas furnace, right? In this. So, now because of the energy efficiency, I can I can I can consider my heat pump. I can go all electric.

[00:32:18]>> Yep.

[00:32:18]>> The system itself will likely be a little bit smaller cuz we're going to get a uh we're going to get more efficiency out of the system that way. And you're going to want your system to run more continuously so that it can dehumidify that area. You know, you don't want your system to cut on real fast and cut off.

[00:32:35]>> Two things it's con- containing what it is doing is taking care of temperature and humidity and you don't want it to reach temperature level before it's achieved humidity level cuz wet air is not comfortable air.

[00:32:46]>> Right.

[00:32:46]>> I got a question for you. What are you doing with these under slabs? Okay, you're pouring concrete right on grade?

[00:32:52]>> We are.

[00:32:52]>> And what are you putting underneath them?

[00:32:54]>> So in Texas, you know, our frost line is 12 in. So >> Oh, wow.

[00:32:58]>> you know, we are just not, you know, by code there's no requirement there for insulation.

[00:33:04]>> Okay.

[00:33:04]>> Um so meaning it's more concerned about our expansive clay soils than anything and then more >> Stabilizing so it's not moving.

[00:33:12]>> Yeah, cuz we have a lot of expansive clay soil. So we do we always do an engineered foundation. A lot of time I am using post tension which some people contend to not like but it's it's better for having the the compressed system when it comes to a moving and unstable soil and then more often than not we're doing like chemical injections.

[00:33:33]>> Stabilize it?

[00:33:34]>> To stabilize it under the slab. That's and and as much select fill as you can.

[00:33:38]>> If I was doing one of your builds, I'd be recommending that we put 2 in of closed cell foam down onto a crushed rock like a prepared crushed 1 in crushed stone. Had it to drain out the moisture or radon or whatever you're going to be encountering and then we put down a 2 in layer. We've even done this with thickened edge where they've gone to 13 in around the perimeter for for the weight bearing but we'll put 2 in of closed cell over top of the rock. Then they can put your rebar and if you're doing an in floor heat line system. I got pictures and I'll put it in the video.

[00:34:06]>> to I want to Yeah, I want to I want to learn more about those assemblies cuz it's like, you know, sometimes you you learn one trick and you keep doing it because you have good results.

[00:34:16]Um but yeah, more often than not people are focused on having a cooler slab. They don't want to have a floor cuz they like a cool slab.

[00:34:24]>> Mhm.

[00:34:24]>> In Texas but definitely I'm I'm into it, you know, a complete insulation barrier all around. I like exterior insulation as well. I like to add that when I can.

[00:34:35]Just to just to do that. And and I think I learned that through Matt Risinger as well is that the spray foam should never be considered your sealant. This is just something we're using for whatever advantage inside for the R factors or not R factor. I know that's a that's a >> You're you're getting your insulation value, you're controlling moisture movement, air movement, all of the things that insulation system should be doing.

[00:34:59]>> Yeah, but I'm very appreciative of this conversation. I've been enjoying watching you and you and Paul go to town talking about some of the problems that he's had, Paul Marshall with Mr. Post Frame. These guys are doing some great stuff too too up in their area, but a whole different climate, you know.

[00:35:16]>> Whole different. Iowa, yeah. Yeah, I know you're you're dealing with cold.

[00:35:19]Cold is going to condense really quick.

[00:35:21]I you know what? Air conditioning in Texas heat will condense just as fast.

[00:35:25]So I would say you're at you're at opposite ends of the stick. One's a cold environment, one's a super hot environment. So I wouldn't want to have a leaky building where I'm running air conditioning load basically day and night cuz Texas is just as hot at 10:00 at night. You know, when you're driving back home it's still 98 96.

[00:35:40]>> Mhm.

[00:35:40]>> Uh and if you're trying to make the environment 71 at let's say 40% relative humidity inside, you are going to condense on improperly insulated structures interior-wise. You just the reverse. It's just not the cold from the outside, it's the cool from the inside.

[00:35:56]>> Yeah, and that that's where the spray foam for us is always fit the bill when it came to close cell and what it can help us accomplish on our standard hybrid steel frames. Not that we're not open to other assemblies, but it at the end of the day it's been the best solution. So >> Well, I think it's a first choice product and here's the reason just the simplest reason why. You can design anything that you want. So creatively you can say, "Look, let's put the structure up. It can have complicated turrets. It can have complicated angles, rakes, a rake wall, a mono slope section over here." And we're not trying to figure out how to get pre-panelized products in place, a long order time, find out that it arrived wrong. You bring in your trades, your supply chain, get it put in there, and then I can foam it in place. And I find that's really the final factor in making foam affordable and sensible for everybody is because whatever you can dream up, we can spray it, and then it's well sealed, well built, and we our turnaround times are quick.

[00:36:50]>> Yeah, that's great cuz yeah, you get these nooks and crannies, and it's like, well, if you're trying to do conventional other types of insulation, it's it's a little more difficult.

[00:36:59]>> Oh, yeah, I've seen it I've seen it where the mice get into the building.

[00:37:01]They will ruin the building once the mice find cuz they send the signal back to all their little friends, and they come back, right? And they're invaders, right? Of a different sort, right? We got to send them back over the fence.

[00:37:12]So, yeah, I I just there's too many risks with some of the older legacy products, and that's why I'm going more more on the spray.

[00:37:18]>> Mike, I'm I'm I appreciate it, man. I I enjoy your content as well, so >> Thank you, man.

[00:37:24]>> we appreciate >> Thank you, Joshua. That's good.

[00:37:27]>> appreciate meeting up with you here.

[00:37:29]>> Oh, it's been great. It's been a great conference, and we're glad we came down, great we met and met and talked to you, and helping the rest of you all with making good building decisions and showing you it's not that complicated.

[00:37:38]>> Yeah, thanks, Mike.

[00:37:40]>> You bet.

[00:37:41]>> Yeah.