Narcissism Expert: What Gaslighting Really Looks Like & Why It’s So Hard To Leave!

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]I am meeting Kathleen Saxton. I love these interviews because she is a psychotherapist.

[00:00:06]>> I'm excited.

[00:00:07]>> And she really knows her stuff. We're going to deep dive into narcissism. What is quite funny is that I'm already thinking, >> "Yo, >> I mean, what I do out here, all right, lads, every week, I love being me. Must be verging on some kind of narcissistic quality. Look at me, everybody.

[00:00:30]Right. Stop flirting. Stop flirting.

[00:00:32]Loads of material for her to talk about.

[00:00:34]>> You're so hilarious.

[00:00:35]>> Hi. You look so pretty.

[00:00:38]>> Oh, bless you. I'm single. Could we just do street men instead?

[00:00:41]>> This is not a problem. We can look we can sort that out later. She specializes really in narcissistic parents, but she knows everything about narcissistic partners, work colleagues. We're going to deep dive into every single area.

[00:01:00]Kathleen Saxton, I just want to welcome you to begin again. Thank you so much.

[00:01:05]So, you are you specialize in narcissism, um, a psychotherapist.

[00:01:11]That's right.

[00:01:11]>> And you often deal with people in midlife who are kind of realizing that they have a narcissistic parent and helping them navigate that. And obviously, um, I'd love to talk to you a bit about that. Um, but not only that, how narcissists can affect every walk of our life, our work lives, um, our relationships, our friendships. So, I'd like to kind of dip into >> all of that, but I would like to kick off with >> Narcissistic Parents, of course.

[00:01:43]>> Um, this book came out last year.

[00:01:46]>> It did.

[00:01:46]>> It's a mega. I mean, so unbelievably helpful. Um because there are even kind of I love these diagrams. They are so brilliant at helping helping you navigate these as well in particular.

[00:02:02]Amazing.

[00:02:04]>> Okay, listen. I was just wondering, you know, the subscribe button down there.

[00:02:08]Could you just press it? That would be so helpful. It doesn't cost anything, completely free, but it really, really helps us bring you fab guests. We really want to do that.

[00:02:19]So what constitutes let's kick off with what constitutes a narcissist? What is a narcissist?

[00:02:26]>> So there's two ways of looking at it I think. One is the pure diagnostic. So it is a diagnosible personality disorder cluster B sits alongside other things.

[00:02:35]It was first kind of noticed and named in 1980 and it's it's listed in the DSM5 which we use >> 1980.

[00:02:42]>> 1980 relatively recently.

[00:02:44]>> That feels so what that's just completely blown my mind. I was convinced you're going to say 18.

[00:02:50]>> No.

[00:02:51]>> What?

[00:02:52]>> I know. Very very recently. I think we've just learned to understand a lot more about personality disorders per se over the last few years and we've done more research in it and research has been funded. I think lots of research just wasn't funded. So we might have felt that something was a bit a miss with someone but we couldn't really nail what it was. So since 1980, so there's lots of statistics. Um we talk about between 0.5 and 6.2% 2% that's quite a big delta between the two of people that are actually diagnosable. If they went to a psychiatrist, they would be diagnosed with a personality disorder.

[00:03:23]>> But narcissism is a spectrum. I think we've all got a little few traits knocking about. I think that's why we were all quite interested as humans in it. And you've got those that have more of a personality type in the middle and you've got those that are disordered. So we think about it on a spectrum.

[00:03:39]>> Okay. So this is interesting because >> it's not a switch. It's a spectrum. I feel like if I'm honest, yeah, what I do would require a certain level of narcissism. Like I love what I do. I even would just go as far as to say, you know, I like I've done it for so long. I feel like I know what I'm doing. Yes.

[00:04:00]>> And I keep thinking, is that narcissism?

[00:04:04]But it could be narcissism, but on a spectrum.

[00:04:08]>> It could be on a spectrum. But it's absolutely fine for us to be really good at what we do and to kind of know that we're actually quite good at what we do.

[00:04:16]We can tell the difference. And the way that I then look at it out of the diagnostic frame is >> it's not about a diagnosis necessarily.

[00:04:23]It's how the people make you feel and your central nervous system feel when you're with them.

[00:04:30]>> Because we can be great at something, but is it at someone else's expense?

[00:04:34]>> Right? Narcissists will want to feel good in whatever form that matters to them. And you are an object to them.

[00:04:40]You're not a person. There's no relationship between them. They might performatively act as though you're in a relationship or a friendship or a but actually you're just an object for them to get what they need. And what they need is narcissistic supply, which is either apparation or sympathy or something where you're going to be drawn towards them. So, we've got the narcissistic criteria, but lots of narcissists will never go anywhere near a psychiatrist. So we'll never really know which can be difficult when you haven't got someone that's been diagnosed. But for me it's about how do you start to feel when you are in their company.

[00:05:14]>> That's interesting. So narcissists don't want to go to a psychiatrist.

[00:05:19]>> No. Because the misconception is that narcissists love themselves and think they're fabulous. It's the complete opposite.

[00:05:26]>> They are absolutely splintered, fractured. They think so little of themselves. They've had to create a mask, a persona, and a defense that says, "Aren't I great?" Because if you could actually see behind this, you would realize that I'm nothing and nobody. And they cannot bear that. So, it's a defense. We call it uh a deficiency defense that they know that they're deficient in so many ways and they probably felt that since they were a kid. So, they create this mask that they wear and that's the mask that we have to deal with all the time. And would a psychotherapist then see that quite quickly?

[00:06:00]>> Yeah, I personally because I've studied it so much. Most psychotherapists would get a feel for it. Most most people untrained would get a feel that something >> off. Well, I think now we're almost all >> kind of looking sometimes or we're with somebody or we've been with somebody and you think, >> "Oh, I think something was off there."

[00:06:18]But I I'm quite interested and I will we will move on in a minute. But when you meet somebody and you think, >> "Oh, I think you have narcissistic traits here."

[00:06:29]>> Yeah.

[00:06:30]>> It it would be quite hard to tell someone that they had narcissistic traits because we paint it so badly like it's um >> it's become a commal garden insult, isn't it?

[00:06:44]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:06:45]>> You're a narcissist.

[00:06:46]>> Yeah. Everyone's a narcissist. Yes. So, we're throwing it out like sweeties, but actually, if you're really in the company of someone who is disordered, it's a very, very different thing. And the damage that they can do that can last a lifetime is very, very serious.

[00:06:59]So, to some degree, although as a therapist, I'm glad that we are talking about it more in general, I'm also concerned that those that have really suffered, if you had a parent, a partner, a boss, a friend, then actually are you really getting the attention and the care and the healing that you need?

[00:07:14]because everyone's a little bit like, well, everyone's a narcissist, sort of get over it type of thing. So, it's tricky. We have to really think about what we're saying. I think we've had this in the last year with OCD. We've all sort OCD and we've been pulled back a bit on it, which is if you've really got OCD, it's a very difficult condition to have to navigate through your life.

[00:07:32]So, I think narcissism will begin to tip back into the center where we realize that really you shouldn't be calling people that unless they've had a diagnosis or indeed you feel some way qualified to to make that diagnosis with them. But traits is another thing. We can all have a few little narcissistic traits and we can be aware of them and we can manage them. But if we're disordered, it's a completely different thing. And I mean, the likelihood of somebody who's disordered going to get help from a psychotherapist is so >> you're almost saying, "I want you to take my mask off." Well, they wouldn't want you to take the mask off in a million years, so they're not going to do that. They're going to deflect it in some other way.

[00:08:08]>> Um, those that might be in coup's therapy, for example, that are desperately trying to save a relationship may in the final knockings of that therapy think I better come forward and say, "Maybe there is something wrong with me." But often again it's performative within a couple of weeks that have slipped straight back to their way that they were before.

[00:08:26]>> So it's the only mental health condition Deina where there is no medical cure and there's no psychotherrapeutic cure if someone has a disorder. And when I was studying it and I was told that by the professors I I couldn't I'm a woman built on hope. My belief is everything's fixable. Everything's possible. We'll find a way. It's there is no cure. And I find that so unpalatable. But that is the current research that we are told there is no cure if you have the disorder.

[00:08:54]>> That's slightly blown my mind.

[00:08:56]>> Yeah.

[00:08:56]>> I always thought there was some way a path to redemption, but no.

[00:09:00]>> No. Lots of other personality disorders absolutely, but not NPD.

[00:09:04]>> Wow.

[00:09:06]I mean, I I I like this idea of that you you'll know because you'll know how you feel. And I I um I've been thinking a lot recently about my kids and their partners. And um the question isn't do you love them?

[00:09:24]>> It's um how do they make you feel about yourself >> and do you love yourself when you're with them?

[00:09:32]>> Yes.

[00:09:32]>> Do they lift you? Do they make you feel better? Do they want make you want to be better? It's all of those things. So we say this there's four Ds that I talk about when I might feel that I might be in the company of a narcissist. So we talk about dazzle. Do they dazzle you quite early on? You're sort of then they draw you in. So you're drawn into them.

[00:09:52]Then they start devaluing you >> and then they discard you.

[00:09:57]>> So that's the pattern that I'm looking for when I'm hearing stories about or I'm hearing them talk about their relationships. I'm hearing some of some of what's going on. pattern of something that happens.

[00:10:09]>> I mean, when we're talking about a parent, um, obviously you you've you were born um either from them or they were your dad um throughout your life.

[00:10:21]So, they're either a mom or a dad >> and so unless you were adopted >> um you would have known them your entire life.

[00:10:32]>> Yes. So, how would you start realizing or start seeing the pattern of um a narcissistic parent? What would that look like?

[00:10:41]>> So, as the child of one and and we'll get at some point into the spectrum of there's lots of different flavors of them.

[00:10:48]>> There's a some sense that there's a performiveness about what you need to be for them. Are they showing you off because you're clever, pretty, good at badminton, doesn't matter what it is, but is there something about you being talked about by them because of something brilliant that you are doing?

[00:11:04]So, are they showing you off? Are they living vicariously through you? If they wanted to be a great ballerina or they wanted to be a barristister and they're pushing you in that direction, are they getting their own dreams lived through you in some way?

[00:11:16]>> The opposite of that is we talk about scapegoating as well. the things they don't like about themselves, maybe they've got a temper or they're untidy or something, they start projecting that onto one of the children. So, the child has to hold all the negative things that they can't hold about themselves because the narcissist can't withstand that back to deficiency. So, they give it to one of the children. So, often in these families, we'll find that if there are a number of children, they're all given slightly different roles in the family.

[00:11:45]>> Yes. And some people will say to me, "Well, it's all right for my brother or sister because they were the golden child." Trust me, it doesn't matter what position you're in. It's miserable because you aren't allowed to be yourself. I call it identity theft in the book. And I think narcissism in general, I I say it's like a thousand tiny identity thefts. slowly slowly slowly they take away the truth of who you are and start to tell you who they need you to be instead in whatever guys they might be in. So as a parent, they are stealing your true self, your identity. And it can take us a lifetime to realize that and then think, how the hell do I get back to the person that I was meant to be when I came into this world?

[00:12:31]>> And that's often the work we do, particularly if someone in midlife, to your question, has found that maybe that they've had a narcissistic parent.

[00:12:38]>> I mean, I I can't help but think about the kind of 20 and 30 year olds as well.

[00:12:43]you know the >> the just starting on your journey of life but being robbed of your identity.

[00:12:48]It's very hard for them because it's harder to identify. Is there anything that a 20 or 30 year old could do to kind of think oh hang on a minute I'm seeing a pattern here that doesn't feel or are they as well as we were talking about how do they make you feel? Should you be looking at yourself?

[00:13:09]>> There's definitely something about how do they make you feel? And of course it's often when we leave home to go to college, university, move up to wherever you want to live with your mates.

[00:13:17]>> You begin to separate. So you know, individuation is very important for any child. So we tend to start doing that around 14, 15. So we start to say, actually, you know, I don't want cheese with my baked beans. Thanks very much.

[00:13:28]We start to decide what we want rather than what we've been given.

[00:13:31]>> But of course, when we leave home and we start to spend time in other people's families, we start to notice what other family sort of systems are like. we start to notice what other people's parents are like when they come to visit whatever it may be. that gives us context for right >> this isn't this isn't like my family or I notice how they are with their mom or their dad and it's really relaxed and easy and so we begin to get a sense of what that looks like and that's the first time that often we begin to realize that maybe something is not quite right at home and then we realize maybe it never has been. But it also then brings into question the other parent which we call the enabler who may have felt they were trapped and could do nothing about it. But often in therapy someone comes with the angst of the narcissistic parent. They want to fix and heal whatever's going on there. But then they start to wonder why didn't my mom or my dad step in or grandparent step in and stop some of this happening.

[00:14:31]So it can be we have to unravel it a bit before we can build it back in again.

[00:14:35]And so sometimes people come thinking they're just going to talk about one parent or one boss or one partner, but it starts to unravel the people that were around them because narcissists can't anybody protect me.

[00:14:47]>> Absolutely.

[00:14:48]>> Oh god, it's quite sad that isn't it?

[00:14:50]The layering.

[00:14:52]>> Yeah. And sometimes that needs a discussion with the other parent who might be able to say, "Listen, I was aware, but I had a choice. What was the best way I could protect you?" And maybe it was to stay in the system rather than to leave. But we see it again in in offices as well. People >> see so Oh, in parenting.

[00:15:10]>> In parenting. Yeah.

[00:15:12]>> Somebody might decide to stay to protect the children.

[00:15:15]>> Yes. They might stay in the marriage even though they know their partner's a narcissist to protect the children, but the child might not feel fully protected because they'd rather the parent have just left left and taken them with them.

[00:15:26]>> Right? So there's lots of sort of timings and context to think about when we're beginning to heal from these people.

[00:15:32]>> Wow.

[00:15:33]>> Yeah.

[00:15:34]>> Boardrooms. You'll be aware that the boss there's a problem, but nobody wants to lose their job. Everyone's got their mortgages banking on it. So everyone becomes aware, but nobody wants to become the whistleblower because they tend to get outcast.

[00:15:48]>> Same with a child in a family. Same with a friend in a friendship group. If you're the one that finally raises the flag and says >> something's not right with this, it can unravel a whole system and that's why it's so difficult.

[00:16:01]>> Is there a gender that is more prone to narcissism?

[00:16:05]>> So for many, many years people said it was much more male orientated. In fact, the statistics were cleanly 75 25. It's a load of rubbish. It's 50/50.

[00:16:14]>> Oh, is it? That's interesting.

[00:16:15]>> Yes. It's just that men and women without, you know, it's it's tricky not being stereotypical, but tend to display it slightly differently, >> right?

[00:16:23]>> So, you'll find slightly more grandiose flavor of narcissism with men. So, >> what does that look like?

[00:16:28]>> Pompous, arrogant, takes all the oxygen in the room, makes all the conversations about them. The female side might be slightly more vulnerable, covert. So thinking about the nurturing side. So very giving, very sacrificing, often a victim, have got a sad backstory that they want to tell everybody so that you draw, you're drawn in again by you're dazzled or drawn in by the story or you could be dazzled and drawn in by someone's confidence or sort of charisma and those kinds of things.

[00:16:56]>> This is so interesting because I don't think I've ever heard the word vulnerable um associated with a narcissist. That's fascinating.

[00:17:05]that that actually it's your kind of victimhood and your big backstory that >> that draws >> brings the attention.

[00:17:14]>> Yeah.

[00:17:14]>> Oh wow.

[00:17:14]>> They call it narcissistic supply. So they need supply in whatever form they can get it. And in sort of classic narcissism it was the attention seeking but you can get just as much attention by being what we call covert or vulnerable narcissist. It's by doing it a different way talking about self-sacrifice. And um you can get grandiose I'm sure women >> absolutely >> but >> quite a few women so differently. Okay.

[00:17:39]And we talk about malignant narcissists and social narcissist.

[00:17:42]>> Oh wait I want to know all of that. Tell no tell me about that now.

[00:17:45]>> So let's say we think about communal narcissists and you might get this in a friendship group. So these are people that are organizing they're organizing the girls trip. They're organizing the golfing trip. They're organizing all the communal things that we do the PTA all the stuff that we have to do. They'll be organizing that and everyone's very grateful and thankful for them. Trust me, there's lots of people that do that and they do it with the best heart ever and we love them for it.

[00:18:09]>> But if later down the line they start to say, "Well, because I did all of that, I really need you to do this for me. I need to call in a favor because I did all of that. You remember I did all of that and now I'd like you to do this for me."

[00:18:21]>> It's not without cost in form. So, we have that. We have those that those that work a lot for lots of big charities but tell everyone but for the wrong reasons not to raise more money for the charity to say aren't I amazing that I do all this for this charity I'm that's me that did that >> so it's like virtue signaling going look at me I'm such a saint >> yeah virtue signaling on acid >> yes >> uh and so and there is so there's a huge difference you know what's the real reason they're doing it and if we look a little bit closer we can tend to start to feel when something's a bit off and again you'll feel it. You'll feel the way they're talking about it >> that, you know, they're not promoting the charity. They're promoting what they did for the charity. It's very subtle but interesting difference. So, we have those types as well. But again, in friendship groups, there'll be all sorts of different types that will be coming forward. So, those that have always got a crisis, 100% or they're always the one that's got the worst thing that's going on for them. So, you might have broken up with your boyfriend. You might have a dog that's very unwell. They'll immediately trump you with the bigger story that they had about exactly the same things. Again, they just find a way of taking all the attention and making it bigger and better so that they feel that they're top dog in some form.

[00:19:36]>> Yes.

[00:19:36]>> Yeah.

[00:19:36]>> Sorry, I was laughing cuz um my husband died. That's not funny. But my husband died once and he was telling somebody and he died for three and a half minutes.

[00:19:46]>> Wow.

[00:19:47]>> And um the guy went, "Oh, well, I died for nine. I'll take your three and a half and I'll raise you.

[00:19:54]>> I was like, "Oh, wow." Like, at least just go, "Oh, that sounds interesting.

[00:19:59]How was that story?"

[00:20:00]>> Yeah. I had the similar experience happened to me. It wasn't about that. It was like, "I died for longer than you."

[00:20:05]>> Yeah.

[00:20:07]>> Again, the stories pulled round to them in some form.

[00:20:11]>> Yeah. I mean it is interesting I think how much more attuned um we are I think to sensing >> someone's energy >> and um their their focus of attention.

[00:20:26]But something I was really interested in was when you were talking about it when somebody's trying to steal the thunder or the attention or steer something towards them. But when you were talking about covert >> and how somebody can seem really quite nice um when they're not around you, but then when they're with you, it's about please feel sorry for me.

[00:20:52]>> Yeah.

[00:20:52]>> I'm having this terrible time. It's a very kind of um >> it's hugely manipulative >> and also really confusing if you are the partner or the child. You know, >> it's the perfect word to be in. The confusion is one of the big things that you would start to feel if you're in the company of this person. Something's off and often we're left confused also by their behavior.

[00:21:13]>> So, particularly if they're a partner actually um there'll be something whereby in public they couldn't be lovely. You know, you go for dinner with them and their friends and they hold your hand under the table and they're super attentive and gorgeous and lovely.

[00:21:24]the minute you're in the taxi home, the minute the front door shuts, shut down, silent treatment, cold and awful, belittles you for what you said over dinner. So, it's like a jackal and hide that you're dealing with. And this sort of we call it intermittent reinforcement, you know, the slot machine analogy, which is >> because when they're lovely, they're gorgeous. We keep trying to get them back to that state. So, we hold on in there.

[00:21:48]>> Yeah. even when we've seen the very worst of them and think actually if they were that if they were like that all the time I'd leave you in a heartbeat because you're dreadful but we have this loveliness that they show in public and so we almost dread going home and the same for parents because when we get if we get in the door of the house everything changes and it's very very confusing.

[00:22:10]>> Yes.

[00:22:10]>> Yeah. is it's quite interesting because as well I suppose as talking about who is a narcissist, there's a little piece of me now that's questioning whether my mother was a narcissist >> from what you're saying.

[00:22:24]>> I think she was just an alcoholic.

[00:22:27]>> Okay.

[00:22:27]>> And um alcoholics are selfish. They're very self feels like >> something a bit different >> that um and that this is quite a nice >> maybe a reassurance that maybe not. Why did you think maybe what had led you to think that or to be curious about it for her >> about her being a narcissist?

[00:22:49]>> I think because she was um like a bit like me, a peacock but an extreme peacock. It was um walking down the street. I've talked about this before, but with a with a long fake fur coat on and flashing people, she was naked, but she's with me and I was 11, you know.

[00:23:08]Um, or putting me in kind of danger or taking me to a nightclub when I was 13 and then going to school weed and leaving me on my own in the DJ booth.

[00:23:19]>> Um, where but and then she's like, "You're fine. I need to go and do this."

[00:23:23]Like, it's just thinking about herself.

[00:23:24]But I wonder whether that is just an absolutely chaotic alcoholic >> chaotic and the selfishness of the addiction she was in >> the addiction.

[00:23:34]>> Yeah.

[00:23:34]>> Yeah.

[00:23:34]>> Because I she was totally self-absorbed and never was interested. I mean she did get she did get angry with me if I tried to impress her. I I just wanted her to be proud of me really. That's what I was constantly seeking.

[00:23:50]>> Yeah. What happened when you challenged her in life? I would never challenge her.

[00:23:54]>> Ah, okay.

[00:23:55]>> I was terrified. I mean, she'd go mental >> because feedback or challenge for a narcissist is very, very difficult because for them, it's the it's the equivalent of you picking at the mask.

[00:24:06]>> Yeah. And they're thinking you stay away from maybe she was a bit >> So, there could be something that might give you >> on the spectrum somewhere.

[00:24:12]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:14]>> Because I I would I would never I would never even try and approach her cuz she'd just go absolute apeshit. We were always just trying to keep her >> keep the peace and keep it of course.

[00:24:24]But what happens and where do you put all those feelings if you weren't able to find a place to put them as a kid?

[00:24:29]It's tough.

[00:24:30]>> Well, I was just very lucky cuz I only spent my school holidays with her. But my sister Yes.

[00:24:35]>> who's over there.

[00:24:36]>> Yeah.

[00:24:36]>> Um she was with her all the time >> and she had a very very difficult life >> and she protected me from quite a lot when I was over there. So I I when she came over here but what was interesting I thought you were talking about kids not knowing their identity >> my sister lost her identity.

[00:24:56]>> Yeah >> I think but is the chronic lying something attached to anything. Oh is it is it attached to that?

[00:25:03]>> Yeah it was partly attached to that which is if if we think about >> my sister was a compulsive liar but we used to laugh about it in the end cuz I'd just go >> is that a porky pie and she'd go yeah it is. Yeah. I mean we it was just part of our >> this is loss of identity again and wanting to be accepted. So we talk about it's Donald Winnott's theory who's the most amazing you know he was the most amazing uh psychiatrist and psychotherapist. If we're born a true self so we come into the world as a tiny baby and nothing's happened to us and whatever spirit pilot light we have is ours to own. But very quickly we realize that we need to you know we're keeping the peace with mom. We're worrying about what's going to kick off etc. We start adapting. So we have an adapted self that we we know we're in it a lot of the time if we've got difficult parents. It then can move out to false self. We completely start lying about what we are, who we are, what we've done in order again to be accepted in some form.

[00:25:54]>> That's exactly what she did.

[00:25:56]>> Yeah. And the very worst is also idealized self. We think I must I I must be idilic in order to be accepted and loved. But if your sister got caught in false, which would have not been her fault because it's the way she survived.

[00:26:11]>> Yeah. Yeah, it was I knew it was a survival.

[00:26:13]>> Yeah. But what we say is we're quite a long way from home.

[00:26:18]>> And so if we can find a way to bring ourselves back to home, that's the therapeutic work that I do with my clients.

[00:26:24]>> Yeah.

[00:26:25]>> Can I just say what a lovely thing to be able to do.

[00:26:30]>> Yeah.

[00:26:31]>> This idea to be able to take someone home.

[00:26:33]>> It is the greatest privilege. Oh, and to watch someone grow in that way and thinking back to my sister >> what that would have done >> for her whole life, you know, going forwards.

[00:26:54]>> I mean, life-changing, right? You must know. How hard is it to kind of untrain someone who has like when you're talking about this journey going from someone who's literally had to change themselves to survive a narcissist, how kind of long are we? I mean, I know it's a bit hard for you to say cuz everybody's different.

[00:27:15]>> Everyone's different, but I I genuinely think it can take about 18 months of concentrated work because we say that when a child doesn't feel loved, they don't stop loving their parent, they stop loving themselves. Oh, >> so I've got to work with them on that to start with. We also quite naturally tend to defend our parents even though we know >> I did that >> of course there are clearly things that aren't right but our natural instinct is we've only got probably one or two or maybe three of the step or blended but >> so therefore we tend to defend them initially or we'll say look other people have had it much worse than me because let's say that parent hasn't physically been violent or sexually being difficult or abusive >> then we kind of feel psychologically you know should I be complaining at all so there's all sorts of things that People will say initially as defense mechanisms and it's it's really clever that as a kid you've come up with that.

[00:28:05]>> But over time in therapy we begin to slowly just peel it back to the point where they can get a little bit more comfortable with accepting it wasn't okay. They did that.

[00:28:16]>> I mean what a wonderful realization to realize that you were wronged.

[00:28:21]>> Yes. As a person.

[00:28:23]>> Yes. And people will often say, "Yes, but my mom or my dad had a difficult upbringing and they might have done or they were in the grip of addiction."

[00:28:30]Yes, absolutely. But what we say is it might explain it, but it doesn't excuse it.

[00:28:36]>> Yes, >> there's a difference there.

[00:28:38]>> Wow.

[00:28:38]>> And so that's also the work gently helping someone come to terms with that because then what does that also mean for them? If their parent is alive or their parent has passed, what does that mean and what do they want to do with it? What I can't do is sort of open Pandora's box and show them and then kind of leave it there. You're leaving them right in the middle of that pain.

[00:28:58]So that's why the work takes some time because we need to be very gentle with these inner children if you like to help them begin to slowly come to terms with it and accept that that is what happened and then where can I find the compassion for myself that I went through that as a kid if that was the story that this person's had in front of me. Same for someone's been married for 20 years to someone, had children with someone who's a narcissist, has worked for someone for 20 years.

[00:29:24]>> Yes. Beginning to actually accept what I've observed, what I felt, what I've seen, what I know. It's true. I'm actually dealing with someone that's like that. What the hell do I do with it?

[00:29:35]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:29:37]I mean, I think um when you've been in an unhealthy relationship, I guess, of any sort with anyone Yeah.

[00:29:45]getting to a point where you can give yourself a little hug and go, "Oh, cool.

[00:29:51]That was a lot, wasn't it?" Like, >> "Well done you." I mean, what a what a beautiful place to get to because I think when you're in it, I mean, it must be so mad. I do. God, Kathleen, it's just like quite difficult because there's so much I want to talk to you about and I'm trying to navigate which kind of avenue I want to go down. I think let's let's park parents for a moment >> because I'd like to go to relationships >> where um I want to talk about the word cuz the word gaslighting just came to my head. I was sort of thinking how mad you go when you >> you know you you must be like in this relationship and just thinking >> what is going on? I just feel I don't know which way I'm going. And >> the word gaslighting I feel like gets banded about a lot all over the place.

[00:30:44]>> But what does it really mean?

[00:30:47]>> What it really means is the person you are in in most senses sound of mind.

[00:30:54]Yeah, >> you're as much as we can. Who knows? We say in therapy we call them an apparently normal person. I think apparently is the >> apparently. Great. Great.

[00:31:03]So we observe something, someone hurts us, injures us, lets us down in a partnership, and we challenge them elegantly, gently, and say, "Look, that actually really hurt me when you did that."

[00:31:15]>> And they will say, "I don't know what you're talking about. I I never did that. You're imagining that or it wasn't as bad as that. You're just, you know, you're being a bit over the top." I sometimes wonder if you're a little bit unhinged. I wonder if actually, >> oh god, you're making me feel uncomfortable like the way you're saying it, >> but that's what happens. So, there's a truth that the narcissist cannot withstand because that would again knock on the mask for them. So, they've got to very quickly deflect it to you. You've got to be the one that is in some way not getting it. You've misunderstood.

[00:31:46]You've got it wrong. That's gaslighting.

[00:31:48]An actual factual thing, feeling that's happening, happened, situation that's going on, and they will tell you that black is white and white is black. And you're sitting thinking, >> "I'm sure it's not.

[00:31:58]>> I'm sure it's not.

[00:32:00]>> Really sure it's not. but I want this relationship to work. So maybe I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I got it a bit wrong. Maybe I'm being a bit over the top. Maybe I'm a bit anxious about this. So we begin to negotiate with ourselves. So then we start to gaslight ourselves because >> is that a thing?

[00:32:16]>> Yeah. We begin to wonder.

[00:32:18]>> Yes.

[00:32:18]>> So you start accepting untruths about yourself even when you know their untruth.

[00:32:23]>> Yes.

[00:32:25]>> It's the chipping away. So if you're in a long relationship with someone, they start it and it go a bit more and a bit more. Before you know it, you have dismantled your own sense of self with yourself in order to try and keep this relationship alive because they might say, "If you really think that about me, then I should probably leave." So then the the relationship's in jeopardy. It's not a kind of we've had a disagreement, let's see how it is tomorrow. Can we find a way to make up or talk it through? They'll go straight to abandonment if they think that's the thing that's going to trigger you up.

[00:32:58]>> So, they'll threaten the entire relationship because you said, "Actually, it hurt me when you didn't turn up to my play or you um didn't support me with my parent at the weekend or you um ridiculed me in front of your friends at dinner last night."

[00:33:14]>> They cannot take any level of criticism or feedback. So, they'll go straight for the jugular. But, it will start with the gaslighting. We've got this lovely saying in therapy which is if it's hysterical, it's historical.

[00:33:25]>> If it really gets you, if that really winds you up about something, the chances are it's touching on something from your historical past.

[00:33:32]>> Wait, and we can all learn from that.

[00:33:34]>> Of course.

[00:33:34]>> Like if I overreact something, >> we've all got a bit of a thing about something. It's Would I be right in saying it's a trigger? Is that a trigger? Trigger.

[00:33:41]>> Yeah.

[00:33:41]>> Yeah.

[00:33:42]>> Do you like the word trigger?

[00:33:43]>> I think it's overused. Again, >> I think it's overus.

[00:33:45]>> Everyone's triggered of everything.

[00:33:46]>> That's why I asked you. It's like people are overt triggered. Yes.

[00:33:49]>> Stop being triggered. It's not a trigger.

[00:33:51]>> Yeah.

[00:33:51]>> That's why I asked if that was a trigger >> because I think I think you're right. I think what happens is we all get a word into our vocabulary. It was a bit like gaslighting. You know, when somebody goes, "You gas lit me." And you think, "I don't think I did.

[00:34:05]>> I just said what I felt."

[00:34:06]>> Yeah. That's what I mean. Um >> gaslighting is again, it's about intention.

[00:34:12]>> If their intention is to get get away with the thing you're accusing them of, that's gaslighting. Ah, sometimes we misunderstand. So, it's about what's what's their intent there. If their intent is, yeah, you've caught me on this and I don't want to admit to it.

[00:34:26]I'm going to gaslight you. It's about intent.

[00:34:30]You know, when you've got that little idea in the back of your mind, something that you think, you know what, I might do that one day, and then life gets kind of busy and it just sort of stays there.

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[00:35:32]I think um the other quite interesting thing around narcissistic um relationships is that you were saying sometimes if you've had a narcissistic parent, not all the time, but sometimes if you've had a narcissistic parent, it can lead you to find um a narcissist attractive. Why is that?

[00:35:53]>> So, we say in our upbringing, even if it's been difficult and hairy, it's familiar.

[00:35:59]>> Yeah. And we mix familiarity with safety.

[00:36:03]So something feels familiar, we translate that in our brain as it being safe. It's not. It's must is probably very very unsafe, but it's very very familiar. And it's why sometimes people with domestic abuse find another partner. Sometimes if we've grown up with an alcoholic parent, we have a temptation to become because it's familiar. We know this pattern. We feel comfortable in it because it feels safe.

[00:36:25]It's the complete opposite of safe. M >> when I work with people that have eating disorders and things like that again the eating disorder feels very safe to them safe eating restricted eating because it feels familiar. So we have to start identifying for us is it really safe?

[00:36:41]What's the interrogation of that thought or is it simply familiar? So when we have a narcissistic parent who might be quite controlling of us in some form, >> do we find ourselves attracted to slightly controlling people >> because it's completely unconscious but unconsciously oh I met them I met them and I had two dinners and do you know what I felt like I've known them my whole life. When someone says to I met them my whole life or I I've met them I had three dates you know I think I'm going to marry them. I'm literally like stop let's just check here. Is there something in the past that wasn't good?

[00:37:12]>> Wait. So let's >> I want to go over that.

[00:37:15]>> So interesting. So you meet somebody and you feel an instant connection, >> but if it goes too fast, that is a red flag. For me as a therapist, it's a red flag because I'm wondering what is it you're really connecting to >> because when we first meet someone, we completely we can't help ourselves. It's completely unconscious. We project onto each other. So you and I have never met before. So, I would have had a load of projections about you before I turned up today. And you might have read a bit of my book or heard something from the producers and thought, I think this is what I'm going to think about, Kathleen.

[00:37:49]It's only when we spend time together that we begin to both dismiss some of those projections andor find new truths about someone because it's a lived experience that we're having.

[00:38:00]>> Yes.

[00:38:00]>> So, in date one, date two, date three, we're pretty much dating our projections, >> right? It's not until something goes a little bit ary or wrong. Like if I spilled my drink over me right now, you'd get to see you get a quick flustered part of me and you'd see a little bit of >> Do you know what I was just imagining then?

[00:38:16]>> What's that?

[00:38:17]>> I was like imagining what would happen cuz I see you as like someone who really knows their sort of um psychology psychiatrist stuff.

[00:38:26]>> And it would be really funny if you spilled your drink and then went absolutely apeshit through a proper tantrum and stormed off. and I'll be like, >> "Who was that?"

[00:38:36]>> You know, that is >> Yeah, >> it is. I always say to um >> people that are friends of mine or whatever, like, "Have you had a row yet?"

[00:38:46]>> Exactly.

[00:38:47]>> Like, how not a row, but what we were just saying when I say I'm saying what I need and someone's been >> either brilliant back.

[00:38:56]>> Yeah.

[00:38:57]>> Or gaslighty back.

[00:38:59]>> That's what you need to see.

[00:39:00]>> That's when you first start to see.

[00:39:01]Yeah. Is first. So, so of course we we notice all the usual stuff, you know, how are they with waitresses and waiters and we we notice some behaviors. I think it's very telling. Um there's so many things I think on a first date. I'm just beginning >> Can you give me a few of them? Give me a few of them.

[00:39:17]>> So, we'll notice, you know, do do they book it? Do they book who who's the who's driving? Who's the driving force?

[00:39:23]Um if you go to the bathroom, how do they wait for you or not wait for you?

[00:39:27]How how are they with the people they're ordering food from? Um, do they observe what you're deciding to eat and then have a conversation about that in some form? Might they ask you how long have you got, you know, how you getting home?

[00:39:39]They might check and let me know when you've got home safely or not, as the case may be. And everybody will want different sorts of things depending on how we're built. But we'll notice some of these elements, but what we'll notice on dates six, seven, and eight is are they keeping it up, >> right?

[00:39:54]>> Where's the consistency?

[00:39:55]>> Oh, okay. Sorry. This is so interesting because on a first date, you would kind of go, "Oh, they're this person."

[00:40:01]>> Yeah.

[00:40:01]>> But actually, >> best behavior, projection.

[00:40:03]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:40:05]>> Okay. It's all about consistency.

[00:40:08]>> So, narcissists, >> Yeah. never consistent.

[00:40:11]>> On best behavior though, when you first meet dates with narcissists, I know I lived it and recovered it.

[00:40:17]>> Just delicious. Gorgeous, delicious.

[00:40:20]Everything you think you've ever wanted and looked at. They'll often ask you what you're looking for and you'll happily tell them and then they'll reflect it all back to you and you think, "This is amazing. They're reading the books I'm reading. They love the same film directors. They like the same music. All of you're thinking this this is it." Like I've this is it. I've won the jackpot. But you wait till date 6 7 8 9 10. See what's going >> what's happening then?

[00:40:46]>> Dismissive. Starting to devalue this devalue and discard. you know, sort of putting down what you do for a living maybe and questioning, isn't therapy just a load of old hocus pocus? They might well believe that. Some people do, but they'd be quite happy to start chipping away. Whereas in date one or two, oh my god, amazing that you're a psychotherapist. Seven and eight, hocus pocus.

[00:41:06]>> But I think that's interesting with language because you could um disagree with somebody about what they do in a way that is agreeable.

[00:41:14]>> Yes, of course.

[00:41:15]>> Um Yeah. you know, like we were saying, um, like what do you what's your intention? Yeah.

[00:41:24]With what you're saying? If you're like, "Oh, well, it's interesting because I'd never really thought of it like that. I thought, you know, if someone there's a way of saying it, >> if they're teasing you that again, we feel the intent behind it and we feel the energy that's behind it. What is it they're really trying to do when they're saying that?" And sometimes I will say, "What did you mean by that?"

[00:41:44]and see where they go with it.

[00:41:46]>> So again, if we ask the right questions, I think the better educated we are actually in dating, there's some brilliant critical questions that we can ask that I think unear things quite quickly.

[00:41:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. Go. Yeah. So I, you know, it's one of the famous questions which is what's too serious for me to joke about?

[00:42:05]>> Oh, I mean Okay, mega.

[00:42:07]>> What would be your answer?

[00:42:09]>> Mine? Yeah, I would say race. Yes, >> I would say um harm to children.

[00:42:19]>> Mhm.

[00:42:22]>> Those would be my two big ones, I think.

[00:42:24]Yeah.

[00:42:25]>> And then you'd ask someone, "Tell me more about why the tell me more question is always beautiful because if someone's being performative, if the narcissist is being performative, there'll be very little depth to the answer." Uh uh. God, can I just tell you, Kathleen, you are the gift that keeps on giving.

[00:42:42]>> I might be, but I'm single.

[00:42:44]>> But I'm telling you, after this podcast, trust me, I'm a presenter. I'm going to find you someone.

[00:42:52]>> Perfect. Can't wait. Yes.

[00:42:53]>> So, just don't you worry about that.

[00:42:55]>> Excellent.

[00:42:56]>> But you to me are the gift that keeps on giving because you you keep saying things. You keep kind of adding a bit where I go, "Oh, that has slightly blown my mind."

[00:43:07]>> Yeah. This consistency thing on on general narcissism will really help navigate people, by the way.

[00:43:13]>> Wow. Yeah.

[00:43:14]>> Because, you know, this is the hot, cold, jackal, and hide.

[00:43:18]>> It's the inconsistent, you know, of them. And this, you know, this sort of um intermittent reinforcement, >> intermittent absolutely lovely to you.

[00:43:28]And you think, "This is it. I finally got there. We're home and dry and then suddenly not again. It's the pushpull.

[00:43:35]You'll feel the push pull a lot with any flavor of narcissist. No matter what relationship you are in with them, you'll feel it.

[00:43:42]>> They don't know they're doing it.

[00:43:44]>> They absolutely know they're doing it.

[00:43:46]>> Okay. And it work. They're doing it because it works.

[00:43:48]>> It works. They have to do it to to protect and defend this fractured piece of the behind. Right. So, this this defense mask has got to be foolproof at all times.

[00:43:59]If they think that you're on to them, and certainly my lived experience was, once they think you're on to them, you you've got to be annihilated because you are at danger of pulling that mask right off.

[00:44:11]>> How long were you in?

[00:44:12]>> Six years.

[00:44:13]>> Wow.

[00:44:13]>> Engaged.

[00:44:15]>> Wait, can I do you mind me asking you?

[00:44:18]You can ask me anything.

[00:44:18]>> Okay.

[00:44:19]>> So, how old I mean, are we talking the last six years?

[00:44:23]>> No. Like, how long ago was it?

[00:44:25]>> It was It It ended 3 years ago. So, it was 6 years. So, You were an adult.

[00:44:29]>> I was an adult woman. I was a mother. I was a therapist by then, which made it worse. Which made it worse to me.

[00:44:35]>> Why? Well, I mean, what I want to ask you is like how >> how, why, and Yeah. All of it.

[00:44:41]>> Yeah. So, I think being a therapist and being in a narcissist relationship was almost the double bind that nearly took my life in a way because I was an adult.

[00:44:51]I was a mother and I was a woman of the world. I was a chief executive of a business. I I got myself sorted. I was sorted >> and I thought I'd found the perfect person. Amazing. Early signs were there and I'm a therapist. So, I think there's something going on with this person. I can feel it. I can pick it quite quickly. It was, you know, within the first 3 to six months, some odd behaviors and things >> and I thought, I'm a therapist. I'm older an older woman, so there's not loads of them out there. I need to make it work. That was my wound. I think I could help make it work. That's my rescuer. Maybe a bit of ego. And I'm a therapist, so I'm I'm used to working with personality disorders. So, if I really really work hard at this, if I study him and I I really try and understand what's going on for him and maybe about his childhood and maybe he's had a difficult life and maybe maybe maybe I can make it work.

[00:45:49]>> And so I stayed way too long at the fair because I was a therapist.

[00:45:55]this this sense of hope.

[00:45:57]>> Yeah.

[00:45:57]>> And I learned my lesson the hard way.

[00:45:59]I'd never do it again. And there was another final part to that, Deina, which is the shame. The shame of being a grown-up woman who runs a business, who's brought her children up that, you know, they're fantastic and gorgeous >> and and I'm a therapist and I'm in an abusive relationship and I can't tell anyone because I'm so ashamed cuz I should know better.

[00:46:22]>> Complete trap. And in a way a win for them.

[00:46:25]>> Oh, perfect for them. I couldn't have been more attentive to what they wanted and what they needed and tried to correct all the gaslighting and tried to get them to read books and watch films and come to therapy and all sorts of things >> and they were safe in the knowledge that you couldn't tell anyone.

[00:46:42]>> Couldn't tell anyone. And you know, their mask wasn't going to come off.

[00:46:46]That was super glued on. And I did everything I could to dissolve that and say, "I know who you are behind it." and it's okay. I'll love you anyway.

[00:46:56]>> Actually, I should have packed my little bags and run for the hills, but I didn't.

[00:47:00]>> So, you were saying that actually um when you do find out who they are, it is >> all out war.

[00:47:07]>> It's all out war once they know that you're on to it. Yeah.

[00:47:10]>> What was that like?

[00:47:11]>> I mean, complete annihilation of me. So, anything I would do, say, want to be at, whatever. So things like, you know, I had an operation I needed to have 4-hour general anesthetic on the morning said, "Sorry, I can't be there. I'm busy at work." My dad died during COVID. Uh the next day he said, "Let's end the relationship. I, you know, I don't want to be around your sadness." Went to the funeral on my own during COVID. Um, things like that, things that if you explain them, and this is, I think, important to get on to, you explain it to an apparently normal person and you can see them thinking, >> what are you doing?

[00:47:51]>> Hey, what are you doing? Of course, >> but surely it can't have been exactly like that. Particularly if they know the person, they seem so lovely and gentle and charming. Mine was a covert.

[00:48:01]>> They seem so giving and lovely, etc. Can't believe something else must have gone on in that story. aditted must be something else that really really wasn't. So, you're trapped in a sense of I've also got sunk cost fallacy. You know, I've stayed so long and I've bet so many chips at the poker table. I've got to make it work.

[00:48:21]>> Yes.

[00:48:22]>> I can't I can't have lost all the money and walked away. Do you remember that film in Decent Proposal?

[00:48:26]>> Yes.

[00:48:27]>> Robert Redford or whatever. They've bet all their money.

[00:48:31]>> So, they cannot then walk. They've got to hope that if I just bet a few more chips, it might come good. It's got to come good.

[00:48:38]>> Yeah.

[00:48:38]>> Yeah. So, that was their story. But my story in it was I went into it thinking I'm older. I might not find anyone. My dis my um distorted belief was that this could be my last chance. I really thought it was my last chance to get married, settle down in a happy ever after. And so that was the work I then had to go back and do with my amazing therapist to say what was that that we need to heal so that if you ever come into this situation again you would never stay.

[00:49:08]>> Yeah.

[00:49:09]>> And also I think um you being good at your job was almost um a problem because you're like I can fix you. Yeah. you know, I've done it to so many people >> and for so many people that >> um I I've got these baseline feelings, so let's kind of heal you so you can become perfect. What was interesting when I was training, you know, you do, you know, a term or two, it's five and a half years of training. You do a couple of terms on personality disorders. Back when I trained, I think we must have done five minutes on narcissism. There was nothing. So, I didn't understand it at all at that point. It was only when I was trying to understand what the hell was going on and then went and studied under sort of specific professors that have really researched narcissism that suddenly the whole world of it opened up to me. And at that point I was like oh my god like I really am with one.

[00:50:00]>> They really am. You asked a question though a second ago about do they know what they're doing by the way which I get asked a lot.

[00:50:05]>> Yes.

[00:50:06]>> Well because because you feel like >> Yeah. They must see a pattern of behavior that and it's and that it's cruel.

[00:50:14]>> Yes. And they do deep down. Yes.

[00:50:17]>> Because the reason we know that is the minute the lights, camera, action are on in whatever part of their life, they don't do it.

[00:50:24]>> Oh, I see. Yes. So, when they're out in public.

[00:50:27]>> Yes.

[00:50:28]>> And not just alone with you.

[00:50:29]>> They would never do it. They would never ever do it. And towards the end when things were particularly hairy, every now and again something would be happening and I'd think, do you know what? I'm going to try and film it or record it because it's the only way that I can. And the minute they realized, >> stopped.

[00:50:46]>> And that's the cruel reality when you realize, oh my god, you can control the way that you're behaving.

[00:50:53]>> Yes.

[00:50:53]>> And it's really it's very disturbing.

[00:50:56]>> Yes.

[00:50:57]>> To see that in someone. It's really not just in someone, someone that you love.

[00:51:02]>> Love.

[00:51:03]>> Yeah. Someone that you are well intended towards. But once you finally truly accept it, you know you have to leave.

[00:51:11]And then it's about how do I do it?

[00:51:14]>> And is it about how do I do it because they make it very difficult for you to leave?

[00:51:21]>> Not necessarily. Some of them do.

[00:51:22]They'll be very manipulative with you to, you know, we call it hoovering. You know, they'll write you letters and send you mix tapes and, you know, tell you, actually, I've I used to have one that sort, you know, my my one said to me, look, here's a house that I think we should buy. I've I know I've put in for the I've put in for us to go and see it next Tuesday.

[00:51:39]>> And was that the dream that you dream that we had together? Um so all the things that they we call it breadcrumbming or future faking. So they they know the story that you want to be true. So suddenly they'll come right back in with it's fine. We'll buy the house. We'll do the thing. We'll all the things that we were meant to have. And so you think, oh maybe because you wanted to be true. So maybe this is going to be what happens. So you go back in and within a matter of weeks you're straight back in. It is like domestic abuse. And I do think we need to accept that psychological abuse is as abusive.

[00:52:14]We just don't have any bruises and we don't want anyone to have any bruises but we don't have any bruises. And that's what makes it difficult. If you turned up to work or at their parents or you know your best friends with socking great big black eyes, people would act.

[00:52:28]People would have an opinion. People would come into the rescue. All they've got are your stories that don't quite add up.

[00:52:37]>> And and it's a bit like you said that people go it can't be we know them. We see them when we're out. They're lovely.

[00:52:44]It can't be that bad. It's quite an interesting >> protection mechanism. It's very very clever.

[00:52:50]>> It's very clever.

[00:52:50]>> It makes again it makes you look a bit mad. It's like perfect gaslight a bit in just deranged. We call it reactive abuse. You know, you take so much of it that eventually, you know, you'll have a bit of a meltdown and people think, oh, you'll go to a dinner party where in the car on the way there, they've been absolutely hell on wheels. So, you turn up and you put your smile on, but it's pretty clear that your central nervous system is all over the show, >> but they're fine.

[00:53:15]>> And but they're fine. So, their friends are probably thinking, "Yes, she was a bit strange at that dinner, but they have no idea what had been going on in the car on the way there."

[00:53:24]But it's it's frightening actually. Do you know one of the other things and we we've we've touched on it a bit but I definitely want to deep dive into this because there will be lots of people watching who are parents.

[00:53:35]>> Yes.

[00:53:36]>> And I've got two girls and a boy and I know that you know all relationships when you're a kid and you're growing up and you're um you're going through puberty and everything's changing um and school is like a sometimes a battlefield, isn't it? for for some it is.

[00:53:54]>> But um this this kind of group mentality a sort of pack bullying was it what did you call it um when there's a narcissism with like a person one person who's the head of everything um the PTA for adults but isunal is it possible to have that in kids?

[00:54:15]>> Yes school absolutely school friendships >> of course in school. So all of these are what we know what we'd call sort of systemic there systems in some form social systems and in every social system there is normally a scapegoat of there's a common enemy horribly.

[00:54:30]>> Yes. In a group.

[00:54:31]>> Yeah.

[00:54:32]>> You've also got the leader of the pack that everyone looks up to for various reasons. They're with the talking scapegoat. That's generally the kid that's bullied.

[00:54:39]>> The kid that's bullied as a scapegoat.

[00:54:40]The one that's ridiculed, bullied, blamed.

[00:54:44]>> All of those things. Horrible. And if you are that in a group at school, it's very very difficult to undo it. It normally means you need to change schools >> schools year group, you know, or go to the other, you know, if there's if there's six classes, you go to the other one over here.

[00:54:59]>> Wait, I I want to say that again for parents because I know a lot of parents who will have had the scapegoat.

[00:55:08]>> Yeah.

[00:55:08]>> And will be thinking, I'm going to keep them here. It'll get better next year.

[00:55:13]Da d I I think that is a brilliant piece of advice cuz I think sometimes you think >> oh let's not move them because it's it's such a hassle. Yeah. You know and we think we want to teach them to work it through because we do we want to teach our children of course stand up to them or or whatever forms we have. I think it's okay to teach them those things to start with and see if it has any maneuverability. But if a kid's been cancelled in a group, if you like, horrible language, but it's now happening, or they're constantly it's it's weeks and it's months of this, genuinely as a therapist, I would say I've seen too many people struggle for too long.

[00:55:50]>> Yeah.

[00:55:50]>> Take them out. Help them to settle somewhere better.

[00:55:53]>> And also, you want them to go and settle somewhere better before they're broken.

[00:55:57]>> That's the thing. Because these belief sets that we get in long before we leave home, they're with us forever unless we work them out probably later in life in therapy. people, you know, people that are in their 40s, 50s, 60s will come to me now and talk about bullying even now and the impact it had on them. I do a lot of work with the stacking dolls. I'm sort of known for it and I will talk about what ages were you when certain things really hurt, right?

[00:56:20]>> And often it will be an early teenage incident where they'll say this happened at school and that will be impacting them in their 50s and 60s even now.

[00:56:30]>> I mean that is fascinating, isn't it?

[00:56:33]>> Yeah. that you can still be carrying that around. Of course, >> and I wonder how um these groups, you know, the so the person sometimes the leader of the pack might have some narcissistic traits >> and how they would feel if they saw that person later on in life, you know, whether it would just all happen all over again. Often not because often something's happened for them to even become that person in the group. So often there's a story going on for all the members and we can have some empathy for all the members. Why has that kid felt the need to take that role in some form, right?

[00:57:13]>> So there's something going on for them.

[00:57:15]I'm a huge advocate of going back and finding some of the people that have hurt you and seeing whether or not it would be safe and appropriate to have a conversation. Oh, are you? I do it now with people and their parents. So I will teach them using empty chair technique, gestalt technique and then in real life rehearsing going and finding the parent.

[00:57:35]>> Wait, when you say gestalt technique, is that the name of the technique?

[00:57:38]>> That's the name. So Gestalt therapy which is a particular form of therapy.

[00:57:42]Empty chair work is a very well-known technique where we would put a chair and we would imagine your mom in the chair now. Okay. What might you want to say to her? So we'd rehearse that and work on that. Often if they've passed that's the only way we can do it. But if they are still here and we might be very very terrified of them, but we might decide slowly to find a way to go and spend an afternoon and say, "Listen, there's a conversation I need to have with you."

[00:58:06]Having the conversation as an adult on behalf of the little child, I imagine you've put the child on your knee and you're saying, "I am going to speak for my little Kathleen." And she will say to the mother, the father, the partner, the bully at school, this is what it was like for me when you did that. I just need you to know that. And it's the only time in therapy we're not interested in a two-way conversation. In that work, we're letting the little girl say, "This is what hap this is what happened when you did that to me. That's it."

[00:58:37]>> Has it ever happened to you that that went badly wrong?

[00:58:40]>> If people aren't prepared, if they go in too quick, too soon.

[00:58:43]>> Right.

[00:58:44]>> So, as a therapist, I work and work and work on the person and I always can tell because I can tell what's going on for them sematically, what's going in the body. What does that mean?

[00:58:53]>> So, sematically is what's going you feel it? So, people say, "Oh my god, even the thought that my mom's in that chair, you know, I've got a an erased heartbeat, got sweaty palms, you know, something's kicking off in my body."

[00:59:05]>> So, it's a physical reaction, >> physical reaction to even the imagination of them being >> to an imaginary thing, right?

[00:59:12]>> The school bully maybe in that instance.

[00:59:14]>> If we've worked long and hard enough and they actually want to do it, it's up to them and ready. When we do the final rehearsal, they'll say, "I feel my central nervous system is perfectly online."

[00:59:24]>> Wow.

[00:59:24]>> Absolutely fine. I'm ready.

[00:59:26]>> So, they've done it that many times.

[00:59:28]>> That many times that the the system has said >> safe.

[00:59:32]>> I'm safe.

[00:59:33]>> Wow.

[00:59:34]>> Yeah. Now, once we've done that, whether they actually have the conversation or not is slightly immaterial, but many people that do do it say, "It freed me from all those years and all those feelings that I had. I finally said what I needed to say." Lots of people say, "I'm worried about what my parent would say back to me, what my ex partner would say back to me, what my school bully would say."

[00:59:54]>> We're not interested. It's the only time in therapy. We're not interested in what they would say.

[00:59:58]>> And also, I guess like if they're really worried about what they might say, then they're not ready to go. Okay.

[01:00:03]>> Yeah. Not ready.

[01:00:04]>> Okay. It's about us being able to speak up for the part that never ever found the courage, ability, space to do so.

[01:00:12]That's why it's so beautiful because they finally get the chance to be seen.

[01:00:16]>> And their reaction is immaterial.

[01:00:19]Particular if they're a narcissist, they're not going to really care us anyway. Yeah.

[01:00:22]>> Other than we may be angry, but we don't care to be angry. Uh it's about saying, "I've said what I needed to say and I can leave that there and I never have to carry it ever again. It's yours now."

[01:00:35]>> That that's brilliant to hear as well. I think if you've been a victim >> Yes. of a narcissistic anybody and it's really affected you.

[01:00:44]>> That visual that you've just done there is very powerful.

[01:00:49]>> Yeah.

[01:00:50]>> We literally take all those feelings. We make sure we've seen them, accepted them, had some sense of compassion for them, and then we're like, "Okay, I'm ready. It's time. Here it is. Thank you very much."

[01:01:01]Do you do you know that I think um another really powerful tool is when you realize that you can advocate for yourself >> and that is feels like that.

[01:01:13]>> Yeah.

[01:01:13]>> Um that you don't need somebody to apologize. You need to go and advocate for yourself.

[01:01:20]>> Um but you need to be in a place where you are doing it not expecting or needing >> anything in return. You're done. But validation is very interesting with narcissistic abuse because uh the risk of course is if we if as you've just said we're seeking their validation. I mean good luck. You know they're not going to say you're absolutely right.

[01:01:41]I'm a dreadful person. I've got this terrible personality disorder. So if we're waiting for them to say do you know what I was awful. We we're going to be waiting a very long disappointed.

[01:01:50]>> Where we can get validation is from people that understand narcissistic abuse. And that's why, you know, any group, whether it's AA, you know, whether it's a >> is there a narcissistic abuse group >> isn't in the UK.

[01:02:03]>> And if I could get funding to set it up, I'll set it up tomorrow because I found when I was in my recovery, when I found other people that had really experienced it, it's like a shorthand where they're like, first of all, I completely and utterly believe you. Secondly, did they do a bit a bit of stuff like that? And you're like, "Oh my god, totally." And then you can actually feel they get it.

[01:02:29]I'm safe to tell them the stories because often these stories are quite convoluted. Yes. Because it's quite insidious. So confused. So I think we definitely need this because it's so insidious. It's hard. Great idea. It's definitely needed and I find that the validation in that sense is incredibly helpful. I actually found the ex two partners of my narcissist and I sat with them both >> across it was a three decade gap and the abuse was identical and it was shocking but it was the most healing. It released me from everything. It was amazing and I'm still very grateful to them both.

[01:03:06]>> And did they they knew he was going out with you?

[01:03:08]>> Yeah.

[01:03:09]>> And were they thinking, "Oh, maybe he's changed. Maybe she's changed him." The ex-wife when I contacted her said, "I wondered how long I wondered how long it would be before you contacted me."

[01:03:22]>> Wow.

[01:03:22]>> Yeah.

[01:03:23]>> Um, in NA they used to say, "The value of one addict helping another is without parallel." And the value of one victim of narcissism helping another victim of narcissism is without parallel. It's that deep >> rooted empathy that nothing can beat.

[01:03:40]>> Nothing can beat. And it's got similar dynamics. You know, people fall off the wagon in the sense that they go back to their narcissist.

[01:03:46]>> How common is that?

[01:03:47]>> Oh, we say it's very similar to addiction. Seven or eight times would be the average time they'll go back. Trauma bonding. The trauma bond we haven't talked about. Trauma bonding is the very center of the pain.

[01:03:59]>> What is that?

[01:04:00]>> Trauma bonding is that um you feel that you cannot live without them. They're my one and only. They're my last chance.

[01:04:07]>> Right?

[01:04:08]>> So, we get bonded in that. And what happens is when they discard you, you go through the devastation of being left or discarded. And then they say a month later, here's the house. Here's the promise. Here's the And your whole body is flooded with dopamine. And you're like, relief. We're back together again.

[01:04:27]>> It's a brain chemical. It's just as strong. They say in some quarters, and I hope this won't offend anybody that's had any heroin issues, but it's as strong as heroin addiction, trauma bonding, because the anticipation and then the relief. It's a very similar chemical cycle that you go through. And we call it trauma bonding in narcissistic relationships.

[01:04:46]>> Wow.

[01:04:47]>> I cannot be without them. I have to be with them. I've got to make it work.

[01:04:50]>> When it breaks and we have we go through cold turkey, it's so hideous. They come back and say, "Do you want another hit?"

[01:04:56]And you're like, "Yes, please. I've changed.

[01:05:00]>> Yeah.

[01:05:01]>> It's going to be different.

[01:05:02]>> Yeah.

[01:05:03]>> I've learned my lesson. I nearly lost you.

[01:05:06]>> Wow.

[01:05:06]>> Of that.

[01:05:07]>> But six or seven times.

[01:05:09]>> Six or seven times. So the family and friends and colleagues, they get sick and tired of >> Oh god.

[01:05:14]>> Because the first time they're like, "Thank God you're leaving them." And after a while they're like, "Listen, she's back with him again. Can't be bothered to or him or her can't be bothered to, you know, she's bound to go back to him." though. So then you're even more isolated because no one's supporting you anymore. They're sort of sick and tired of it all.

[01:05:31]>> Well, that is like an abusive relationship because then that isolates you even more from the people that care about you and it's great for the abuser.

[01:05:38]>> Yeah. So isolation is there twice. A, you can't say what they're really doing to you because you think, well, >> I should leave them then because they are doing that to me and you'll never believe me because they appear so gorgeous in reality. And when they finally believe you and you leave them, if you go back, then you've lost their support. So the isolation is very central to narcissistic relationships.

[01:06:00]In families, you might be the one sibling that speaks up and says, "This is what's going on." The whole family will close in and and get rid of you.

[01:06:09]They put it under the carpet. You are then ostracized from the family for daring to speak up. Happens in boardrooms. I see it all the time.

[01:06:17]Happens in friendship groups. I want to talk about boardrooms um because that's the area we haven't really kind of touched on yet. And work >> you you you mentioned earlier and I thought this was such a really potent obviously because I'm self-employed. I work in TV podcasts. Literally I've I've never met someone mean like I just everybody that I seem to work with is just joyful. Yes. But in a cutthroat business situation in a company, you know, your income depends on it.

[01:06:53]Your whole livelihood is dependent on you staying in this business and things are tough at the moment. The potential for a narcissist to really take advantage of staff. How does that present itself? So start at the beginning, which is Harvard review. Harvard studies have showed us this. Narcissists are brilliant at interviews.

[01:07:17]>> First date, same thing.

[01:07:18]>> Oh my god. Of course.

[01:07:20]>> Secondly, if you read a standard job description for a chief executive or a chief anything, confidence, deliberateness, you know, uh can speak really well in public, can instruct people well, >> narcissist, >> charismatic.

[01:07:38]We are advertising for these people.

[01:07:40]That's the irony of it. We're calling for them and then 18 months later when it's all, excuse my French, gone to [ __ ] We're then like, "Oh god, have you seen what they're like?" But if they're in a leadership role, they can be very persuasive. You know, money makes the world go around. They might be making a lot of money for a business, but the collateral damage of the people that are working for them is unbelievable. And the way I talk about it is, you know, on corporate boards we have um governance, you know, for risk, for policy, for all sorts of stuff.

[01:08:11]>> What does governance?

[01:08:12]>> Governance, if you're a trustee or you're a board member of a board, I'm a trustee for the NSPCC, for example.

[01:08:17]Governance is about making sure the business is being run well and safely and within the rules of operation. So you you have a duty of care. So we have governance for for policy, for risk, for lots of for finance. You'll have people that are singularly governing those things. We have nobody governing behavior.

[01:08:39]Nobody.

[01:08:41]>> The only people we might think about is HR. I call them human remains because actually what they're doing is they're at the directive of the CEO. So they don't even have even if they wanted to, they don't have the power to question what the CEO is doing.

[01:08:59]>> Right? So there is no power check for these people. They are free to do as they wish. And if they're bringing the money into the business, the behavior is swept under the carpet.

[01:09:10]>> But this is really interesting because not only have you now got to start NA >> Yeah.

[01:09:15]>> Um narcissist anonymous, but you've also now got to change that in the boardroom.

[01:09:20]That is not right.

[01:09:21]>> It's not right.

[01:09:22]>> Someone someone has to hold the CEO accountable completely. And I'm really going to campaign strongly for this.

[01:09:31]>> So I've just finished my next book, Slime Mighty. And it's all about that.

[01:09:34]What are we going to do about it?

[01:09:36]Because everyone says, well, the CEO doesn't have a boss. They've probably got shareholders. They've got investors from the city. There will be other people that fundamentally can. And so I've come up with this sort of, it's a bit cheeky, but the strategy is do you stay at this business? Do you play as in do you utilize it to your use for a period of time or do you slay? I'm not condoning anyone kills anybody. But slay means how do we get rid of a narcissistic boss? Yes.

[01:10:05]>> And the only way you can do it is not as an individual. You've got to do it as a collective. So you have to form a coup.

[01:10:12]>> If a lot of you on the board of the business say we cannot work with him or her any longer to the shareholders, the investors or whatever, funnily enough, you'll probably find they'll get rid of them. So there's a whole world now we've got to look at about how do we manage our way through these people because they are rife. Um I talk about about the dark triad. Narcissism, macavelianism and psychopathy. That's the dark psychopathy.

[01:10:36]>> Psychopath tendencies.

[01:10:38]>> Oh, I see. People doesn't care. Yeah.

[01:10:41]Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[01:10:42]>> When they did the research in the general population, Deina 1% has got psychopathy.

[01:10:49]>> That feels like quite a lot.

[01:10:50]>> It's a lot. In business, guess what?

[01:10:53]>> No. How many?

[01:10:54]>> 4%.

[01:10:56]>> Times 400% more psychopaths in the workplace because leadership. You've got leadership ability. Unfortunately, you may well have some of the dark triad traits >> because they want that. If you're going to have to sack a load of people, you they don't want anybody with any feelings. You've just got to do it.

[01:11:13]>> Absolutely.

[01:11:14]>> And they see that as a bonus. Oh god, it's awful.

[01:11:17]>> Research 20% have high narcissistic traits. 20%.

[01:11:22]It's a lot of people.

[01:11:23]>> Wow.

[01:11:24]>> So we in statistically in business we are more likely to find these personality disorders than in the commonal dating everyday life. And that's why we've got to bring it to everybody's attention in a way that we can think about are you that boss? And if you are, you know, you're leaving a legacy of harm, do you want to go to therapy and do something about it? If it's traits and personality, not the disorder. If you're one of the people suffering, what can we do to help you?

[01:11:50]If you're an investor, if you're a bystander, if you're in the team and you're seeing it happen and you don't know what to do to help the person, you could be in a group at school. What are you going to do about it? So, I'm on a mission to start looking at what we do in workplaces. It would work the same in schools, work the same in friendship groups, anything that's a group of people. What can we do to start getting this right? I think that's um in in a school group, you know, there are sometimes um like there's sometimes one person who kind of secretly will go off and be nice to the person that's being bullied and goes, you know, sorry, like this is happening to you, but then they're too frightened to do that when the gang is together.

[01:12:38]>> Totally the same in business. It will be I can see you're being bullied in the board meetings or in the sales meetings or whatever meetings, but they can't they feel they can't speak up because it could be their job on the line and it's their mortgage on the line. So, it's really high stakes.

[01:12:51]>> It's huge stakes, isn't it? And at school, it's like life and death.

[01:12:55]>> Of course, if I'm out of that gang, then I'm done.

[01:12:57]>> Yeah.

[01:12:58]>> Um PTA meeting, you know, if you kids are at that school for the next few years, that one person could make your life a nightmare. It is. It's really hard about power.

[01:13:11]>> So, will you just remind me us the name of the book?

[01:13:14]>> It's called Sly and Mighty.

[01:13:16]>> That's such a good >> because they're mighty.

[01:13:18]>> That's very good.

[01:13:19]>> They're mighty, but they're really soding sly. And so, how can we really expose the slliness of their behavior, which will help us decide, can we get mighty with the slime >> and and tools? You're giving everybody tools.

[01:13:31]>> Loads of tools. So, in in both of my books, starts off with what the hell is it? Whatever it is, >> this is amazing for tools. It really is.

[01:13:39]>> What is it? Is the first third. How does it look in real life is the middle third in both books. The final third is okay, what are we going to do about it? And there's so much we can do about it. And that's where the hope can come back in.

[01:13:51]>> And I'd just like to also say to um any CEOs watching, don't forget there are 80% that are good.

[01:13:58]>> Yes. Um you're not all bad.

[01:14:00]>> Um just wanted to say that. You know, we got to we got we got to big up the good guys and girls. And when they're good, it's so extremely wonderful. I've had so many bosses in my lifetime and in the main, they've been absolutely amazing.

[01:14:12]And I credit so much of what I've been able to become because of them. And this is the thing like great teachers, like great partners. You've just said with Michael, when we get it right, it changes our life for the better.

[01:14:24]>> Um, oh my god. Like literally, I'm just going to hold this up again. Um, Kathleen, >> thank you. Kathleen Saxton, she's written this amazing book, My Parent, The Peacock. I've got to say, I think my kids might say that about me.

[01:14:41]I I do stress about in like ridiculous outfits and everything, but I I like to feel like >> I um I make up for it in other ways, like, you know, got um but my parent, the peacock, and um Sly and Mighty. Sly and Mighty coming out in September.

[01:14:59]>> Um so yeah, we've got you covered.

[01:15:03]Kathleen's got you covered. Um, thanks so much. That was absolutely brilliant.

[01:15:08]Round of applause for Kathleen, please.

[01:15:09]>> Oh, thank you.

[01:15:10]>> So, just in case you missed this episode here, um, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.