Lawyers Break Down the Prosecution and Defense’s Strategies in Lindsay Clancy Murder Trial

[00:00:00]This is a case where a mother has murdered her three young children. This is really hard for for me to discuss.

[00:00:08]I'm sure it's going to be hard for you to discuss.

[00:00:10]>> get out the facts, right? Happened in Massachusetts.

[00:00:13]Lindsay Clancy.

[00:00:16]They're picking the jury right now.

[00:00:17]She's charged with murdering her three children ages 3, 5, and 7 months.

[00:00:24]>> Yeah, barely. Barely.

[00:00:25]>> Right. Right. So, it's it's not a who done it. She did it.

[00:00:29]She did it. They're arguing that she's not guilty by reason of insanity. She's not criminally responsible for this. And What do you think, Jana? Let's You want to talk about some of the facts that support So, why don't you Well, you want to you want to take the prosecution side or the defense side?

[00:00:47]>> Well, that's You know what? I would take the prosecution side in this case cuz it's so Yeah, only because I just hate it. Like, I can't It's really hard for me to wrap my mind around any mother for any reason doing this to her children.

[00:00:59]>> So, wait. So, let's set it up. There's two prongs and when you're arguing insanity, the first part is that she did suffer from a mental defect or disease.

[00:01:08]That's number one. And as the prosecutor, are you conceding that based upon her history, which I know we'll we'll discuss in a moment. And then the second part, we're staying general right now. The second part is whether she knew right from wrong. Are there any facts that you can point to? Like, the person who robs a bank may be absolutely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, but if they put something over the license tag, oh, well, why would they do that? Cuz they knew it was wrong. Why did they wear something covering their face? Cuz they knew it was wrong. What facts can you point to as the prosecutor to say she knew that this was wrong? Something Jana.

[00:01:38]>> Here's where the prosecution is going to have the easiest part of their job when they're trying to prove that she knew the difference between right and wrong.

[00:01:45]They are going to show that day, which is a an interesting day when you analyze what she did because they're going to bring in people who had conversations or some sort of communication with the defendant that day where she seemed perfectly normal. For example, for example, she went to the doctor, said, "Oh, no problem." She wasn't slurring her words.

[00:02:07]She seemed perfectly normal. She asked for Miralax for the kid. Like, she's just having a normal >> Got it. Check.

[00:02:13]>> But, okay. So, number one. Number two, here's where the digital evidence, I do think, helps them for the most part.

[00:02:21]They're going to Prosecution's going to claim that she planned this. And if you're planning, you know the difference between right and wrong.

[00:02:27]>> Mhm.

[00:02:28]>> Because she made her husband do something unusual. And he she asked him to go get takeout from a from a place that was a little farther from home than where they would normally get takeout.

[00:02:39]But, that's that's not the that's not the right She went on Google Maps to determine how long this food run was going to take him so that she could commit these murders.

[00:02:55]And then, she was going to kill herself after. And she wanted to make sure she had enough time. The digital evidence, the phone evidence, is going to clearly support that.

[00:03:06]>> I want you to play the role of pros- Keep playing the role of prosecutor. And now just argue why the suicide is significant. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, right?

[00:03:15]The fact that she wanted to kill herself or attempted to kill herself. By the way, she's a quadriplegic. She she didn't succeed in killing herself. I think she jumped out the window and she expected the ice to be mushy. It wasn't.

[00:03:25]It was hard and frozen. So, now she's in a wheelchair the rest of her life. Add that to the stuff she has to live with.

[00:03:31]But, make the argument as to why the fact that she tried to kill herself favors the prosecution.

[00:03:37]>> All right. So, here's the probably the strangest fact of all.

[00:03:41]Prosecution is going to contend because this is all they have. Like, look, this is not a situation where she had a lover and she needed to get rid of her kids.

[00:03:48]Like, we've seen that in Susan Smith. Do you remember that years ago? This is not that.

[00:03:53]This is a case where the prosecution wants to show that she wanted to kill herself and in order to compel her own self to take her own life, in order to be committed to that end, she first needed to murder her three children because that is the only way that she would make sure that she did what she set out to do.

[00:04:15]>> You know, that's that's not what I was going for. And that's you just made a good argument. I think that the the the argument that they'll probably make, although that's a great one that you just came up with, I didn't think about that, is she wanted to take herself out because she knew what she had done was so heinous and wrong and she wanted to avoid prosecution, she wanted to avoid living with what she had just done as opposed to what we saw in the Precious Bland case and some others where the the woman is still like cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. She she doesn't Why are you guys here? What what's the police here for? What what, you know, although in the Precious Bland case she did try to kill herself and the argument's going to be cuz the voices, the same voices that >> too.

[00:04:54]>> Right, commanded her to kill her three kids and Precious Bland commanded her to kill, you know, herself. So, it's going to be just interesting. Now, can I jump on the defense side since we just heard from you so eloquently and brilliantly?

[00:05:07]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:05:08]>> Okay. So, unlike the Andrea Yates case and some others where they say, "Let's come up with something after the fact, right?"

[00:05:16]and say this is what you were suffering with. There was no evidence like in the Andrea Yates case that like in this case psychiatric treatments, hospitalizations, a medical history, uh changes in the medication, she reported these these intrusive thoughts, hallucinations, voices, she had um treating doctors. I mean, there's a lawsuit against the um hospital for failing to treat her properly.

[00:05:45]>> Mhm.

[00:05:46]>> She went >> help. She held out her hand saying, "I didn't cause this postpartum psychosis.

[00:05:52]I need help." And then I think they did the best they could at their level of awareness, but it wasn't good enough.

[00:05:59]>> It wasn't >> No, obvious obviously not. She's suing for malpractice and I think on behalf of the children, there's a wrongful death suit. Also for the way that she was treated. Now look, I think whatever when she finally does get a jury, people can relate to the whole postpartum thing. If they have any women on the jury who's ever had a children ever had children, they might relate. Not every woman suffers from it.

[00:06:24]But I think it's a bigger stretch to to ask jurors, "Look, this is what she was suffering from. She had postpartum depression. She was on medication. They wrongfully called it bipolar disorder and then it resulted in this." Because Mark, if I'm prosecuting this case, >> Mhm.

[00:06:40]>> number one, it's going to be so hard for the jury to sit through this evidence, but as a prosecutor, I think they almost have to not reenact it, but you have to say to a jury, "Here's how many seconds.

[00:06:51]Count how many seconds it took to to asphyxiate the life out of an 8-month-old child."

[00:06:56]>> out of my seat. Objection. Objection.

[00:07:00]Sympathy. Sympathy.

[00:07:01]>> if you're going to talk no, if you're going to talk about planning, if you're going to talk about knowing the difference between right and wrong, >> Maybe I don't object.

[00:07:08]>> do they have?

[00:07:09]>> You're right. Maybe I don't object cuz you know what? The judge is probably going to let it in if it goes to planning. How each child and and she didn't apparently use the exercise straps like a certain way. She like tied them around which shows extra planning to your point, right? But here's the question. Just from I'm just talking to you as a human being. Put your lawyer hat down for 1 second. Just for 1 second.

[00:07:31]>> Can't can't do it.

[00:07:31]>> Really? You won't do it? I'll try.

[00:07:33]>> You won't do it?

[00:07:34]>> I'll try.

[00:07:35]>> I mean, the ace in the hole before I ask this question to you is the husband. The husband lost his three precious offspring and he is supporting her.

[00:07:48]>> He is saying that this woman was not in her right frame of mind. She loved those kids. She would never do anything like this. So, I ask you Jonna, you're going to convict her? You think that she's a murderer? You will give her life in prison over this? I'm just asking you and I'm not giving my position away. I'm playing devil's advocate.

[00:08:06]>> I I just have a tough time maybe with my lawyer hat off, I have a tough time with these types of cases with the with the mother killing the children type cases.

[00:08:19]I had a tough time with Andrea Yates. I had a tough time with Susan Smith. I had a tough time with um Precious Bland. Who's I if I recall her husband I think supported her as as well.

[00:08:32]>> Yes.

[00:08:32]>> Don't quote me on that. I think he did.

[00:08:33]>> Yes. That helps.

[00:08:35]>> You know, and I guess >> them better than their spouses? Go on.

[00:08:38]>> Yeah, that that is true. That is true.

[00:08:40]But do you also think again, I'm I'm really playing devil's advocate here.

[00:08:47]Would a lawyer say to a spouse and I'm going far field, but work with me.

[00:08:52]>> Go. We like that.

[00:08:53]>> Would a lawyer ever say to a spouse, listen dude, if you don't support her, they'll come after you for not alerting the authorities sooner that your wife was batshit crazy and your children were in danger.

[00:09:08]>> You know that at first I was like, Jonna, no. And then I went, hmm.

[00:09:13]Hmm.

[00:09:14]>> I mean >> At a minimum, maybe not criminally, but child protective services like >> Child protective right, take those kids.

[00:09:20]>> you know in a closer examination? But but my gut tells me I don't believe so.

[00:09:24]I think that this is really pure and that they were getting the help that she was or attempting to get the help that she needed and they just failed her.

[00:09:34]>> Well, it really it's tough on the on the medical community too. Could you imagine? We don't want to get to a place because this type of mental illness is prevalent and properly treated, you can have a perfectly normal and wonderful life. We don't want doctors saying, "I'm not going to treat you because I don't want to be held accountable if you go off the deep end and you blame me."

[00:09:55]Right? I mean, we don't want a whole segment of society who can't get treatment for mental illness because you've so scared the doctors or their their insurance premiums go sky high that >> we leave this topic, I I've got to do this. I I want you to immediately now take off your prosecutor hat, put your defense lawyer hat on, give me a little taste of your closing. The best part of it, the highlights, the stuff they're going to show on the news. Go, Johna, go.

[00:10:22]>> This mother loved her children.

[00:10:26]She loved her children so much so that she sought medical help for what she knew was not right. She knew these feelings she had posed pardon were not proper. She knew these feelings could be harmful. So, she did the responsible thing and went to the professionals, ladies and gentlemen. She didn't self-medicate. She didn't go to the herbal aisle at the Piggly Wiggly and get some St. John's Wort. She went to the professionals and the professionals failed her.

[00:10:56]So, if you're going to blame anyone for this type of psychotic break, you cannot blame the mother who was a victim of the pharmacology, who was a victim of the medical professionals who failed to properly diagnose, treat, and medicate this mother who was crying out for help with every doctor appointment, with every doctor visit, with every ounce she had in her until that day when she could no longer help herself. No one could on this fateful day, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:11:28]You cannot put this woman in prison for the rest of her life.

[00:11:31]>> So good. So good.

[00:11:33]>> Wow.

[00:11:34]>> God, I wish I get in trouble in your town. Oh my goodness. I would love to get >> You just got to walk against the light to get in trouble in my town, Mark.

[00:11:41][laughter] >> That is so good. Thank you. That was I real as much as I hated the topic, I loved hearing your analysis. Thank you.

[00:11:49]That was great.