Inside Josef Goebbels’ Deadly Propaganda Machine | Our History

[00:00:01]Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's infamous Minister of Propaganda.

[00:00:06]The original master of spin who brainwashed the German people into joining the Nazi cause.

[00:00:13]His lies paved the way for the Holocaust and ushered in the most devastating war in modern [music] history.

[00:00:20]His commitment was total.

[00:00:30]>> To murder your six children it requires devotion that becomes evil in itself.

[00:00:37]>> [cheering] >> Most people from my generation don't understand [music] however 70 years ago a small group of Nazis could start a war that killed 60 million people.

[00:00:51]I want to find out >> [music] >> and to help me I'm going to use playing cards. Today they're used by both the military and law enforcement to help identify their targets.

[00:01:01]But nobody has ever put together a pack of cards for the most notorious group of [music] killers in history.

[00:01:07]Working with experts I want to know where each of these Nazis rank in the hierarchy of evil. My name >> [music] >> is James Ellis. This is Hitler's most wanted.

[00:01:22]>> I think the thing about the Goebbels to me that's so ironic that he's this key figure in the regime but he's this short guy. He's he's something like 5 ft tall.

[00:01:30]He has a pronounced limp from a clubfoot disability. He does not come across in any way as this ideal Nazi.

[00:01:39]>> That's particularly true in a society and in a political movement that euthanizes people with disabilities.

[00:01:45]>> And he's extremely quick-witted and he also has a certain amount of charm and and Goebbels you know could play that very very successfully.

[00:01:52]>> He he not only demonstrated some narcissistic personality but also he appeared to suffer from depression. He had significant insecurity, quite uh dramatic at times.

[00:02:01]>> Yet he holds this incredibly important and powerful position in the Nazi regime.

[00:02:07]So, how did Joseph Goebbels seduce the German people into Nazism?

[00:02:13]I've come to Berlin, the center of Goebbels' propaganda machine.

[00:02:21]So, this is Bebelplatz.

[00:02:22]>> Yes.

[00:02:23]>> That's uh Humboldt University.

[00:02:25]>> Yes.

[00:02:26]>> I'm in Bebelplatz to find out more about a moment that defined Goebbels.

[00:02:32]Here we have it.

[00:02:34]I've met up with political activist Jörg Braunsdorf.

[00:02:39]This monument, I can see there's what?

[00:02:40]Empty bookshelves in there?

[00:02:50]On the night of May 10th, 1933, less than 3 months after Hitler took power, Nazi supporters torched a mountain of books by Jewish authors right here in this square.

[00:03:40]So, they burned 25,000 volumes of books right here.

[00:03:44]Wow. And I understand there was something like 40,000 people gathered in this square.

[00:04:07]>> The book burnings these were conceived of as a cleansing and a purification by fire. So, it really was a ritual in the service of Nazi ideology.

[00:04:19]>> Goebbels and the Nazis used spectacle and pageantry and iconography to absolutely dazzling effect. The massive swastika banners, the fires, the nighttime marching, it is visually so impressive.

[00:04:37]>> With his incendiary speech, Joseph Goebbels put a government seal of approval on this racist act.

[00:04:45]He ordered the film of the event to be played in cinemas across the country.

[00:04:52]His goal was to turn the nation against the Jews.

[00:04:57]>> Propaganda is simply selling a political message [music] and trying to sell it really hard so that people are going to buy it. Now, you know, the harder the thing you're trying to sell, the better the propaganda's got to be. Buy us, the Nazi party, and we will make the economy better. Buy us, the Nazi party, and we will get rid of the Jews.

[00:05:17]>> But, who was Hitler's Minister of Propaganda?

[00:05:22]In 1924, Joseph Goebbels was a 27-year-old PhD and failed author working at dead-end jobs just to get by.

[00:05:32]Germany's economy was a mess. Like many, Goebbels was looking for inspiration and someone to blame for his problems.

[00:05:41]>> Goebbels was stuck. He was depressed. He didn't see any prospects, and he became entranced with the person of Adolf Hitler. He began reading anti-Semitic tracts. He began buying in to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

[00:05:56]He began thinking of himself as somebody who was loyal to the idea of the folk or the race. And he saw Adolf Hitler almost as a religious savior.

[00:06:06]>> He wrote, "We need a firm hand in Germany. Throw out the Jews who refuse to become real Germans. Give them a good beating, too."

[00:06:16]"Germany is yearning for an individual, a man, as the earth yearns for rain in the summer."

[00:06:22]>> Goebbels realizes that [music] Hitler is the one. He's going to be the one who's going to solve Germany's problems. He's frankly captivated by Hitler. And as a result, he joins the Nazi Party. You know, he's he's there pretty near the beginning.

[00:06:37]>> Goebbels was an intellectual and proved to be a skilled speech writer and powerful public speaker.

[00:06:44]Hitler quickly recognized him as a valuable ally. In 1926, he sent Goebbels to Berlin to spearhead the Nazi cause there.

[00:06:54]>> Goebbels, you know, is good at stage managing his own appearances. Hitler does the same thing. You know, like all good public speakers, they have an instinctive feel for their audience. But they also um have that kind of narcissism that drives that type of figure on.

[00:07:12]He starts to peddle propaganda. You know, he gets his leaflets printed. He starts mounting an information war.

[00:07:19]Now, who's Goebbels targeting with his information war? Well, it's the same old enemies. It's the communists and the Jews.

[00:07:30]>> It was the beginning of an unprecedented campaign of hate that would soon engulf Germany and the world.

[00:07:43]It's history that Jörg Braunsdorf, who owns Berlin's Tucholsky bookstore, fears we may soon be doomed to repeat.

[00:07:51]Internet propaganda, fueled by far-right groups, is sharply on the rise in Germany.

[00:07:57]These groups exploit the recent influx of migrants and asylum seekers in order to spread fear and misinformation.

[00:08:07]>> [applause] >> So, this is a meeting of people from the local community and they're here to discuss a forthcoming counter protest against what they're describing as a neo-Nazi demonstration.

[00:08:34]The upcoming far-right march and others like it has Jörg and his group fearing that Germany is on a dangerous path towards fascism once again.

[00:08:45]They've invited me to observe their counter march in a few days' time.

[00:09:11]In the late 1920s, Joseph Goebbels organized similar marches as part of his campaign to propel Hitler and the Nazi party into power.

[00:09:21]At the end of the decade, his efforts get a huge boost from a global crisis.

[00:09:28]>> The stock market crash of 1929 and the resulting worldwide [music] depression created adverse conditions for Germany and Goebbels exploited those conditions to his own benefit and to the benefit of the Nazi party. You have a series of elections in which Goebbels is able to engage in electioneering and to see the Nazis increase their share of the vote.

[00:09:52]>> In 1933, Hitler became Chancellor of Germany.

[00:09:56]>> [music] >> As his Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels moved to control newspapers, radio broadcasts, and film production.

[00:10:16]Goebbels now commanded a national stage, and cultivating anti-Semitism [music] became official government policy.

[00:10:23]In the spring of that year, Goebbels took the podium in front of a massive Berlin crowd.

[00:10:41]>> Goebbels was committed to removing Jews from the social, cultural, political, and economic life of Germany, and he was committed to spreading propaganda in order to make this happen.

[00:10:53]>> [cheering] >> The speech sparked a surge in vandalism to intimidate Jewish business owners and discourage customers.

[00:11:02]For Goebbels and the Nazis, graffiti was a cheap and easy method of propaganda to spread hate.

[00:11:13]And it's making a comeback.

[00:11:16]>> We are going to the playground where the first swastika in our neighborhood [music] was painted.

[00:11:21]>> In a children's playground.

[00:11:22]>> Yes.

[00:11:25]>> On my journey to find out where Joseph Goebbels ranks in Hitler's hierarchy of evil, I met up with artist Ibo Omari.

[00:11:32]>> But uh graffiti, as you can see in Berlin, is all around us.

[00:11:36]>> Yes.

[00:11:37]Nazi graffiti is on the rise in Germany, just as it was in the early years of Goebbels' rise to power.

[00:11:43]So, where are you taking me now?

[00:11:45]>> We are going to the playground where the first swastika in our neighborhood was painted.

[00:11:51]And as you can see, it's a quite busy playground, a lot of kids, a lot of families.

[00:11:56]Same here, you can see graffiti everywhere.

[00:11:58]>> Yeah, everywhere.

[00:11:59]>> Ibo is on a mission to find Berlin's Nazi graffiti and paint over it.

[00:12:04]The project started right here in this predominantly immigrant neighborhood.

[00:12:10]>> It was there, actually.

[00:12:12]You can see the black border, parts of the black outline.

[00:12:18]Here.

[00:12:20]Here, here. So, it was quite big, as you can see.

[00:12:23]>> Yeah.

[00:12:25]So, when did this happen? When was the swastika placed here?

[00:12:28]>> This was 2 years ago.

[00:12:30]>> 2 years ago?

[00:12:30]>> Yes.

[00:12:31]>> And have you seen anything like that before in this area?

[00:12:33]>> No.

[00:12:34]No. Like uh the last swastika I personally uh it's over 25 years.

[00:12:42]>> 25 years?

[00:12:42]>> Yes.

[00:12:43]>> I just can't believe the size of it. You said it's like a meter and a half by a meter, and it's in a children's playground.

[00:12:48]>> Yes.

[00:12:49]>> I can children and it's like there's kids playing here right now. And there are apartment >> Yes, he took a lot of risk to get caught, and he took a lot of risk to spread his hateful message.

[00:13:00]>> According to Ibo, the swastika's sudden reappearance here was no coincidence.

[00:13:06]>> The top two leading books that week when this swastika was painted were uh from a guy called Sarrazin. He tries to connect genetics with your intelligence.

[00:13:18]>> Yeah.

[00:13:19]>> And a racist.

[00:13:21]Uh and the second place was the corrected version of Mein Kampf, the book from Adolf Hitler.

[00:13:26]>> And that's across Germany or >> Across Germany, yes.

[00:13:29]>> So, the most popular book was essentially a racist book. And the second most popular >> From Adolf Hitler.

[00:13:34]>> Kampf.

[00:13:34]>> Yes.

[00:13:36]>> It was the start of a disturbing trend.

[00:13:39]Since then, Ibo has painted over scores of swastikas and other Nazi symbols.

[00:13:44]>> If you see them and just think there's just one idiot, but out of one idiot is two and four and eight and all of a sudden they have a party and get voted.

[00:13:54]>> It's an eerie reminder of what happened here in the 1930s. Goebbels' barrage of propaganda over multiple platforms spread the word of fascism across the country.

[00:14:05]Nazi ideology became inescapable.

[00:14:11]But, there was one medium that obsessed him more than any other.

[00:14:19]Film.

[00:14:25]Propaganda meant the use of images [music] mass media to spread ideas.

[00:14:32]And Goebbels was a master of that [music] and also the nascent medium of film.

[00:14:38]>> [cheering] [screaming] >> Goebbels made hundreds of propaganda films, sometimes personally overseeing their production.

[00:14:51]I want to find out more about the methods he used, so I've come to a Berlin cinema to screen one with someone who knows the tricks of the trade.

[00:15:00]Alexa?

[00:15:01]>> Hi.

[00:15:02]>> I'm James.

[00:15:02]>> Alexa Karolinski is a documentary filmmaker.

[00:15:06]>> I understand you have an interesting perspective on Nazi propaganda films.

[00:15:11]>> Um I grew up Jewish in Germany. All my grandparents were Holocaust survivors, so in order to understand um my own identity and and where I was growing up, I I was always very interested in basically uh how this was how this could have happened and how the Nazis were um able to win over the hearts and minds of the German people.

[00:15:37]>> So, what makes propaganda different to say art and documentary?

[00:15:43]>> Art is there to you know as an expression of an of of the artist or as a comment on society. And I and I think that propaganda is there to basically make you feel like you are part of something larger and that you get to partake in like a collective narcissism, for example, in the case of Nazis or new flare-ups when it comes to nationalist white supremacy.

[00:16:11]>> We're watching a never-released propaganda film shot in Warsaw's Jewish ghetto.

[00:16:17]The film features callous Jewish policemen mistreating fellow Jews.

[00:16:24]It's intent was to portray them as a subhuman infestation of Poland.

[00:16:33]So, we're seeing here obviously um violence being meted out against people, but the people who are committing the violence are not Nazis cuz they got the star of David on their arms.

[00:16:47]This kid here.

[00:16:50]>> It's the same boy getting up twice in different shots.

[00:16:54]>> It's yeah, it's the same kid.

[00:16:58]>> I mean, I wonder if this whole thing was staged.

[00:17:03]Everybody's wearing these gray and dark coats and he has this like crisp cream-colored or white trench coat and you can just he really pops in the crowd.

[00:17:16]You know, You know, some smart styling and art direction.

[00:17:24]>> This is just the kind of visual trickery Joseph Goebbels became a master of.

[00:17:32]Despite the twisted nature of how he employed these methods, some consider him to be ahead of his time.

[00:17:40]>> The whole idea that any violence that you see in this is being perpetrated not by Nazis, but by Jews. So, it's Jewish violence against Jewish people and building that whole conspiracy that they do it to themselves.

[00:17:57]>> And you wonder how staged those actions actually are, like that's example whether they're just grabbing someone random or that's >> probably are like grabbing someone random. I don't know.

[00:18:11]>> Although that woman's reaction makes you wonder.

[00:18:13]>> No, that was real.

[00:18:14]>> That was for sure.

[00:18:14]>> That was real.

[00:18:17]I mean, it's real in the sense that they're real people on the street and they're like, "Run, just run."

[00:18:22]>> Yeah.

[00:18:23]>> Go run.

[00:18:24]>> Today, even a modestly trained eye could spot Goebbels' filming tricks.

[00:18:30]But back in 1942, this just wasn't the case.

[00:18:33]>> You have to imagine a public that is not used to mass media and perhaps not as sophisticated in separating uh truth from fiction, in recognizing manipulation of images as we like to think we are.

[00:18:51]>> Fiction and reality are cleverly blurred. In effect, he's producing a 1940s version of what we now call fake news.

[00:19:00]This is racism at its ugliest and most hateful. To audiences back then, it served to reinforce the stereotypes about Jews that Goebbels had been peddling for years.

[00:19:13]So, what are some of the stereotypes [music] that we are seeing on screen here?

[00:19:17]>> Jews bargaining, doing business, the collar is like flipped up, two men talking with each other, maybe they're up to no good.

[00:19:26]Also, in the propaganda footage and all this footage, you usually see Jews as kind of like sheepish, like just following and walking and sad and hungry. You rarely see them defending themselves.

[00:19:36]>> Yeah.

[00:19:37]>> So, they're depicting them as worthless, despicable, dirty people.

[00:19:44]The consequence of being part of the Jewish world conspiracy is that is how you will end up.

[00:19:54]>> Propaganda is absolutely vital for them in order to be able to sell what they want to do, in order to promote all the objectionable policies that they're going to carry out. Without [music] the propaganda, you know, the Nazi grip on power would have surely been a lot weaker.

[00:20:17]>> Dissecting Goebbels' cinematic technique was a deeply disturbing experience.

[00:20:24]But now, I'm about to see firsthand what happens when people believe far-right propaganda and act on it.

[00:20:35]>> [cheering] >> It's the day of Jörg Braunsdorf's counter-protest against a planned far-right march through Berlin.

[00:20:43]It comes on the anniversary of a huge turning point in Germany's history, October the 3rd, Reunification Day.

[00:20:53]What should be a celebration of German unity has instead [music] become a standoff between two deeply opposed ideals.

[00:21:08]>> Und hier, heute >> We're in the Kurfürstendamm area. There are hundreds of people here. I'm being told there might be up to a thousand far-right marches going through the city at some point, and they will be confronted by these people here.

[00:21:38]So, we're expecting a far-right march from here any moment. There are hundreds of counter-protesters here behind this barricade, and hundreds more on the other side. In this area, there are dozens of cops, some of them in riot gear. It is so tense right now. You can tell that they don't know what to expect, and they're clearly prepared for things to get violent.

[00:22:00]See, my goodness. That looks like an armored vehicle.

[00:22:04]They're definitely preparing for the worst, that's for sure.

[00:22:11]They're making their presence very clear to the marchers that are on their way.

[00:22:14]It's very tense. You see, counter-protesters are behind the barricade, and the cops are here right here. There's cops all around this area.

[00:22:21]Anything could happen right now.

[00:22:27]And here they come.

[00:22:33]I'm in Berlin on a mission to find out where Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels ranks in Hitler's hierarchy of evil.

[00:22:42]Right now, a far-right march, fueled by the same kind of hate propaganda Goebbels produced during the Nazi era, is heading straight for me.

[00:23:00]So, the people from some of these buildings have been throwing stuff down on the marches and some sort of a scuffle has broken out.

[00:23:11]One marcher is led away with a head injury.

[00:23:15]>> [music] >> It's so strange to be in the middle of this to think this is Berlin 2018.

[00:23:57]Thankfully, there were no serious confrontations.

[00:24:00]The far-right marches pass and I look for counter protest organizer Jorg Braun Storch to get his thoughts.

[00:24:14]So why is it so important that you protest marches like that?

[00:24:35]The people who protested against the march [music] have their way of fighting fascism but others choose to do it differently.

[00:24:47]Not far away, graffiti artist Ibo Amari is teaching today's young Berliners some visual trickery of his own.

[00:25:00]>> So this workshop is teaching these kids how to transform swastikas into artwork. So we've got one here that's being transformed into looks like a king or a queen.

[00:25:14]Here is a stereo player.

[00:25:17]A windows and a house.

[00:25:21]So what they're really doing is they're getting young people to understand what these symbols mean and take them and transform them into something completely different.

[00:25:33]Really really important social project.

[00:25:37]Why is it so important to get kids doing it?

[00:25:40]>> They are the future.

[00:25:41]Actually, so if they are not teach to not tolerate stuff like this, who else?

[00:25:46]The old heads they it's more difficult to teach old old people.

[00:25:51]So and they have fun.

[00:25:53]Are inspired.

[00:25:55]>> It's the best combination.

[00:25:56]>> Yeah. Young people getting creative and doing something good against racism.

[00:26:01]>> Yes.

[00:26:05]>> Ebo's classes [music] wrap up with a little fieldwork.

[00:26:13]>> By each stroke he's reducing hate actually. So the more he paints the less hateful the message gets and when he's done that you can see what it was before.

[00:26:24]>> Yeah.

[00:26:27]You seen the kids >> Yeah.

[00:26:28]>> what they've done?

[00:26:29]>> Yeah.

[00:26:30]>> So you as an adult should be much easier for >> [laughter] >> I don't know about that.

[00:26:35]>> Then?

[00:26:35]>> Like that?

[00:26:36]>> Yes.

[00:26:37]You know, do it closer.

[00:26:39]>> I don't have a clue what I'm doing, but I'm going to try it out anyway.

[00:26:53]>> Yeah.

[00:26:56]So, was it difficult?

[00:26:58]>> No, it was easy.

[00:26:59]>> See, like next time when you see a swastika and nobody removes it, just go there, grab two cans and make a cat.

[00:27:04]That's what you did.

[00:27:13]She's She just said she can draw better than you.

[00:27:15]>> Oh, I'm sure she can.

[00:27:16]>> [laughter] >> That's because you you've gone to his workshop.

[00:27:21]>> Yeah, that's kind of exciting, yeah.

[00:27:23]>> It's I just love how you do this. Like you transform something that's so horrible, but you're sending a message because say someone had whoever put that swastika there originally comes by, then they suddenly like, "Oh my god, like what happened to my swastika? It's now a cat? Like it's a real Like you're sticking it to those people."

[00:27:42]>> It is an answer, definitely. And we did we did not like leave a hateful message like that unanswered.

[00:27:48]>> No.

[00:27:48]>> So, it's an answer with a lot of creativity and uh a lot of fun, huh? Much boss.

[00:27:53]>> Yeah.

[00:27:54]>> Yeah.

[00:27:56]>> This has been such an amazing experience being a part today of this program whereby they are transforming these horrible racist images of swastikas and they are changing them into these beautiful pieces of artwork instead. I think it's so empowering and it sends such an important message to the creators of the swastikas here that these people are not going to let it stand and that they are going to transform it into something completely different. I think it's so important and it is it's been such a powerful experience for me to be part of this.

[00:28:31]If anyone had attempted this 80 years ago, however, they would have been arrested, possibly even killed. In Germany under Nazi rule, resistance was close to futile.

[00:28:43]By 1941, the country was fully under Goebbels' propaganda spell.

[00:28:48]But, he was about to use that control to help launch an attack that was nothing short of madness.

[00:28:56]His method of rallying support for that campaign relied on one of the oldest tricks in the book.

[00:29:02]>> He built fear. We can never win that war [music] without crushing Soviet Union.

[00:29:14]>> My mission to find out where Joseph Goebbels ranks in Hitler's hierarchy of evil brings me to a war memorial in Berlin's Treptower Park, built to honor Soviet soldiers who died in the Battle of Berlin.

[00:29:27]The Hollywood perception of the Second [music] World War, I feel, is this focus on the American aspect, that America's role in defeating Nazi Germany, accompanied by its Western allies, Britain and Canada, but people forget the brunt of the fighting was carried out by the Soviet Union, and they lost millions of their citizens in the process, and they were the ones that finally conquered the Nazi capital, Berlin.

[00:29:52]Now, that is one hell of a statue.

[00:29:54]It's huge.

[00:29:56]>> Made to be seen.

[00:29:57]>> Historian Sebastian Gerhardt is an expert on Germany's war against the Soviets.

[00:30:04]I can't get over the scale of this place.

[00:30:07]So, what exactly is it?

[00:30:10]>> It is a Soviet war memorial prepared shortly already after Second World War, but it came at a high price.

[00:30:28]>> On June 22nd, 1941, Goebbels took the airwaves to announce that Hitler had just launched an invasion of the vast Soviet Union, the hated communist enemy that Goebbels had been campaigning against since his first days in the Nazi party.

[00:30:46]But the country was massive in both size and population.

[00:30:49]And this made him uneasy.

[00:30:52]>> The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941 represents a real challenge to Goebbels because he doesn't really agree with it. He has his doubts to drive all those tanks and airplanes, you know, eastwards into Russia.

[00:31:06]But Goebbels is nothing if not loyal to Hitler and adaptable. And you know, he will use every propaganda tool in his basket to try and get the cell through to the German people.

[00:31:19]>> He pulled it made a strong case out of producing fear of Soviet style communism, fear of such a big power in the east of Europe. We can never win that war without crushing Soviet Union and we have to win that war because otherwise Soviet Union would win and that would result in a complete disaster for Germany, complete destruction of German people.

[00:31:45]>> Hitler launched a war of complete annihilation on the Soviets. In the opening days of the campaign, the Nazis drove deep into Soviet territory.

[00:31:57]Writing in his diary, Goebbels was ecstatic.

[00:32:00]The divine judgment of history is being passed onto the Soviet Union.

[00:32:06]I believe the war against Moscow will prove to be our greatest coup, psychologically and perhaps even militarily as well.

[00:32:17]But ultimately, [music] Russia's sheer size and seemingly endless supply of troops were just too much for the Nazis.

[00:32:24]The Red Army stopped Hitler's advance in the bitterly cold winter [music] of 1942 at the city of Stalingrad.

[00:32:31]German losses were staggering.

[00:32:34]>> What really fights Goebbels' propaganda and there's nothing he could do about it, is the death of of someone in your family. If you've lost a son, if you've lost a husband, if you've lost a father on the Russian front, no words from Goebbels, no propaganda message is going to counter that sense of loss.

[00:32:52]>> Goebbels realized the war was going badly and tried to rally the nation.

[00:33:03]He called for total war against what he called an inferior people.

[00:33:13]>> [cheering] >> And then the irony is that the Soviets did come and they did defeat the Nazis and they did conquer half of Germany.

[00:33:27]>> Yes, they did.

[00:33:29]But even after they liberated all parts of the Soviet Union from Nazi occupation at the end of 1944, afterwards by going to other countries in Eastern Europe and going to Berlin outside the Soviet Union have been killed more than 1 million Soviet soldiers.

[00:33:46]>> I mean, do we have an idea of how many Soviet citizens, soldiers and civilians died defeating Nazi Germany?

[00:33:55]>> About 27 million Soviet citizens killed during Second World War.

[00:33:59]>> 27 million million.

[00:34:01]>> Out of a population of about 190 million people.

[00:34:05]That makes that every family had casualties.

[00:34:09]>> I That Those numbers, that's just absolutely unbelievable.

[00:34:13]>> It is understandable why the Soviet Union did not break down even with these heavy casualties.

[00:34:19]There really was no choice than to win the war against Hitler.

[00:34:23]>> It's either win or face annihilation.

[00:34:25]>> Yes.

[00:34:27]Either or.

[00:34:28]Like all Soviet war memorials in Berlin, it is a cemetery, too, for about 7,000 of Soviet soldiers buried here.

[00:34:37]>> Wow.

[00:34:38]>> So many losses.

[00:34:41]>> Yeah, I think it's interesting to understand that we're in the middle of Berlin.

[00:34:44]We're not in Russia, we're in the middle of Berlin, and we're standing in a Soviet war memorial and graveyard in Berlin.

[00:34:50]>> Yes.

[00:34:51]>> And that's because the Soviets conquered Berlin at the end of the war in Europe.

[00:34:55]>> There was no other chance to take an end make an end to Nazi Germany and save the hatch, too.

[00:35:03]>> In April 1945, the Red Army arrived at the gates of Berlin with payback on its mind.

[00:35:12]Or the revenge aspect.

[00:35:13]>> Yes.

[00:35:14]At the very end in Berlin, there was heavy fighting up to May the 2nd, 1945.

[00:35:20]>> And in the Battle of Berlin, how many Soviet soldiers are estimated to have been killed?

[00:35:25]>> About 80,000. That is the official Soviet account.

[00:35:28]>> 80,000?

[00:35:29]>> 80,000.

[00:35:29]>> What short of period are we talking here?

[00:35:31]>> We are speaking about less than 3 weeks.

[00:35:34]>> 3 weeks, 80,000 Soviet soldiers [music] dead.

[00:35:36]>> Yeah.

[00:35:37]>> Wow.

[00:35:41]While the battle for Berlin raged in the streets, Joseph Goebbels, along with his wife Magda and their six children, took refuge with Hitler and other high-ranking Nazis in an underground bunker in the city's central district.

[00:35:56]It was there that Goebbels spent his final days and where his story came to a horrifying conclusion.

[00:36:14]In my mission to find where Joseph Goebbels ranks in Hitler's hierarchy of [music] evil, I'm looking for the Berlin site of the underground Führerbunker where he died.

[00:36:26]It's not easy to find.

[00:36:30]I'm here to meet Berlin journalist Lothar Haenke, who's going to tell me about Goebbels' final hours as the Red Army closed in on this spot.

[00:36:38]>> Hi.

[00:36:38]>> Hello.

[00:36:39]>> James.

[00:36:40]>> Hello, James.

[00:36:42]>> Nice to meet you.

[00:36:43]>> Okay.

[00:36:44]>> I had quite a trouble finding this place cuz there's there's nothing left here of the bunker.

[00:36:52]So >> No, nothing.

[00:36:53]>> Nothing?

[00:36:54]>> Nothing.

[00:37:04]>> How long has that plaque been there?

[00:37:33]So how did it all end here for Goebbels?

[00:37:47]>> Hitler had sich erschossen mit Eva Braun.

[00:37:49]>> On April 30th, 1945, Hitler committed suicide [music] to avoid the humiliation of being captured.

[00:37:56]Only a day earlier, the Führer had named [music] Joseph Goebbels to be his successor as Chancellor of Germany.

[00:38:25]>> [music] >> Joseph Goebbels and his wife were dead.

[00:38:33]German soldiers [music] tried to burn the couple's bodies in the courtyard to keep the Soviets from using them as trophies.

[00:38:41]But the sight of Goebbels' charred remains were nothing [music] compared to what was discovered deep inside the bunker itself.

[00:38:48]>> Joseph and Magda Goebbels make the [music] most appalling and evil decision that any parent can make and that is to murder their children.

[00:38:58]>> They couldn't imagine any purpose [music] in living or in having their children live in a world without Adolf Hitler and without National Socialism.

[00:39:10]>> For 21 years, Goebbels was devoted [music] to Hitler and the Nazi party. It it was his life. It was his everything.

[00:39:19]It it in many ways it [music] was love, the worst kind of love, an obsessional lust for for for pure evil.

[00:39:27]>> It could be the ultimate [music] final sacrifice of a of a true zealot.

[00:39:35]>> Learning about Joseph Goebbels' devotion to Hitler has been both a fascinating and disturbing experience.

[00:39:42]Now it's time for me to determine where this master of Nazi propaganda fits into Hitler's hierarchy of evil.

[00:39:50]>> Yeah, to murder your six children requires devotion that becomes evil in itself.

[00:40:00]>> My journey across Berlin has given me new insight into the role Joseph Goebbels played in the Nazi regime.

[00:40:07]Now it's time for us to decide where he should be placed in the hierarchy of evil.

[00:40:13]Using our unique system [music] of playing cards, I want to determine where Goebbels ranks in Hitler's most wanted.

[00:40:21]>> Of all the places I visited connected to Goebbels' story, the one that really struck me the most was the site of the famous May 1933 book burning. And Goebbels was there acting as this sort of master of ceremonies.

[00:40:38]The thing about Goebbels is that he really believed in anti-Semitism. Some of these really senior Nazis, you know, were there and they they were anti-Semites for practical reasons and all to get ahead. Goebbels, he really believed in it.

[00:40:49]>> I think some people will think that because he was so anti-Semitic that that suggests an elevation of evil.

[00:40:56]>> Anthony, what influence do you think his message of of hatred and violence had on the German masses?

[00:41:05]>> When you think about Nazism, the frenzy of Nazi rallies, the emotional whipping up of support and passion, that's all down to Goebbels. And without that, you don't have this mass buying and this mass participation.

[00:41:16]>> I think Goebbels is sometimes oversold as a master propagandist, and I'll tell you why. This is a dictatorship. How hard can it be to get your message across when you own the radio and indeed the newspapers? It's not that difficult.

[00:41:30]>> I've seen how Goebbels used his propaganda tools to manipulate the German people, rousing the nation into war.

[00:41:38]But Goebbels continued to blanket them with Nazi lies long after he knew that war was lost and millions would continue to suffer and die.

[00:41:48]>> You get a sense, certainly with other Nazi figures, they're very much aware that what they're doing is bad. There's always that doubt there. But with Goebbels, there never appears to be any doubt. It makes him very chilling.

[00:42:00]>> Yeah, pure devotion. He's doing it, it's wrong. He's doing it anyway. Goebbels really was devoted to the cause.

[00:42:05]>> But to prove his loyalty to Hitler and the Nazi regime, Goebbels not only kills himself, but kills all of his children.

[00:42:14]What does that say about him?

[00:42:16]>> I think that does prove exceptional evil. From the perspective of of a of a father, you know, to murder your six children requires devotion that becomes evil in itself.

[00:42:29]>> I would see it as a genuine sense that there was no point having his children alive in a world without Nazism, without Hitler as a savior.

[00:42:37]>> It's hard to imagine a more severe version of fanaticism.

[00:42:41]>> It's this level of commitment to the Nazi cause that makes him one of the most dangerous of all Hitler's followers.

[00:42:49]A true believer to the very end.

[00:42:52]>> So, what I'd like to do now is discuss where the three of you think that Goebbels would rank in the Nazi hierarchy of evil. So, Anthony, what are your thoughts first?

[00:43:01]>> The Nazi crimes weren't random. They were systematic. As Minister of Propaganda, as the choreographer of Nazi pageantry, and as a fanatical anti-Semite, Goebbels was central to that [music] system. Because of that, he's number three.

[00:43:14]>> Guy.

[00:43:15]>> Yeah, I might take exception to you a little bit. You know, the point is the Nazis controlled the media. How hard is it to get your message across when you do so? That makes me want to go lower than you, but reluctantly, I'm going to go for a three as well.

[00:43:27]>> Matt.

[00:43:28]>> He certainly was the master of ceremonies. He was central. This couldn't have happened without him. But, I'm curious about whether he would have been able to hold the knife himself. I'm going to rate him a little lower.

[00:43:37]Four or five.

[00:43:38]>> I'm going to disagree with you, Matt, because I think he did get his hands bloody. He did murder his own children for the cause. And his children became victims of Nazism. Also, his role as the Minister of Propaganda, I understand where you're coming from completely, Guy, but I just feel that that message being sent out and and how virulently violent it was, I think that played such an important role in the crimes of the Nazi regime. So, I'm going to have to say he ranks number three and that [music] is Ace of Diamonds.

[00:44:13]>> Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels orchestrated the brainwashing of Germany to pave the way for the Holocaust and the Second World War.

[00:44:23]For that and the murder of his six children, he ranks third in Hitler's hierarchy of evil.