Tom Simon provides a grounded, expert perspective that demystifies the clinical logic behind federal sentencing and financial loss calculations. It is a necessary reality check for anyone trying to understand how the legal system quantifies the impact of high-profile fraud.
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FBI AGENT Reveals Untold Story Behind Dr. Love | Tom SimonAdded:
At age 17, he opened up a clinic and presented himself as Dr. Love. He's a brilliant con artist, but not necessarily a brilliant medical practitioner. I always wondered what happened.
>> Do you remember the story about a 17-year-old kid here in Florida who pretended to be a doctor? Yes. His name is Malachi Love Robinson. At age 17, he opened up a clinic in West Palm Beach, Florida called New Birth, New Life Medical Center and presented himself as Dr. Love.
>> And he's 17.
>> During this window of time, he was 17, but he turned 18 during the course of his his uh his treatment providing treatments. Not licensed to pra practice medicine. This is not Doogie Hower.
Yeah. Right. This is not a he's not some, you know, he's perhaps a brilliant con artist, but not necessarily a brilliant medical practitioner.
Real people Matt Cox walked through that door to get and Dr. Dr. Love is there checking their vitals, giving them medical advice and he positioned himself as a primary care physician. You like you remember sign on the door and everything. He even made his way into a real hospital Matt Cox St. Mary's Medical Center and he begins interacting with patients posing as a doctor at the hospital itself. After several treatments, the staff begins to look and it's like, "Who's this guy?" And uh and they begin they question him. His credentials were checked and nothing matched, right? And none of it made any sense. He becomes the focus of an investigation from the Florida Department of Health and Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office uh who investigate and they confirm no medical license, no degree, no authority. But it wasn't just the clinic. Matt Cox in his doctor love persona. He made house calls to an 86 year old woman and claimed he could treat her and he sold her off the rack natural remedies and then he used his access to steal from her.
>> Oh, I didn't know all this.
>> Okay. The elderly victim lost between 20,000 and $30,000 to young Malachi.
Okay. So, he gets busted. Did he help her?
>> Well, the placebo affects the real thing. He gets he's out on bond on his Florida case, right? Because he gets busted by the sheriff's department. And he sets his sights on Virginia. He goes to a car dealership in Stafford County, Virginia, and attempts to buy a Jaguar using a different elderly woman's credit information without her knowledge. He doesn't get away with the car. He gets caught. He pleads guilty to state fraud and forgery charges in Florida. I'm sorry, in Virginia. Okay. Now, I'm going to tell you the sentence because this is just an interim stop on his tour and then we're going to ask you to guess the sentence on the last scam in Florida for pretending as a doc. He's a doctor. He gets three and a half years in prison.
Okay? Again, local local crime in the Virginia case results in an additional one year in prison. Malachi gets out of prison.
You can't keep a bad man down. Matt Cox, after his release, he's humbled. He gets a job in Delray Beach, Florida.
>> I hardly believe you. I don't believe that. Feel like that's sarcasm.
>> He gets a job in Delray Beach, Florida.
Okay. In uh working for a Florida shipping broker and he launches an embezzlement scheme there where he begins diverting incoming money to the shipping broker from their customers to bank accounts under his control. We tell these stories a lot when I come on your thing. He gets $10,000 from that company. He pleads guilty again again in Palm Beach County, uh, Florida, and the judge sentences him to a local prison sentence. This time, understanding that the doctor scam, understanding the old lady he ripped off, he does his time there. He gets out. Now, we're talking a $10,000 embezzlement case. How much time do you think Malachi got for his third kick of the can?
>> I wonder if he was currently still on probation. I don't really know how it worked. This is state though.
>> All state. Yeah, it's hard.
>> We do mostly do federal cases and states sort of weird thing but um but the story was too delicious to leave on the >> It is Florida.
>> Like they don't they're not they lose patience quickly.
>> Malachi has been a thorn in the side of Palm Beach County for a while now.
>> It's only 10 >> and Virginia.
>> It's only $10,000.
>> This is true. It's not the riches of the Orient. He was such a cocky young man, too. Like he did TV interviews.
>> Oh, yeah. He's doing Yeah. You look like Gary Coleman from Different Strokes.
>> Yeah, he's >> Yeah. Um I remember at one point I think he told he was he was saying, "I never told anybody I was a doctor." Like it's like you're it's on your plaque on your >> It's like a white lab coat in the mirror on his forehead.
>> Like it's it's your plaque says doctor.
Like what are you talking about?
>> MD. Um uh I don't know. I don't I I don't think he would have got much for the 10,000 even with the other stuff because it's only 10,000. Maybe like 15 months. No, no, let's say uh uh what? A year and a half. Uh uh 18 months.
>> 18 months. A year and a half in prison for embezzling $10,000.
>> Exactly. 10,000. Even though what I'm saying 18 months because of the previous, >> right, >> crimes, >> right? You got the pretending to be a doctor. You got the ripping off the old lady. You got the attempt of the identity theft basically in Virginia for the Jaguar. So, it's really his fourth crime is the embezzlement. And you're saying that's worth 18 months in prison?
>> It's $10,000.
I mean, unfortunately, it's $10,000. I mean, >> I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want you to be comfortable with your guess.
>> Yeah, I think 18 months.
>> Your final answer, Mox. Okay. The correct answer is 28 months in prison.
>> Actually, I think in the year and a half. Does that >> I think that gets you there in the Colby rule within one year.
>> Within a year.
>> Oh, >> yeah. A look how upset. It's the mo the best part about it is how how upset you are.
>> I'm not upset. I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled that you're doing well on your own game show. Colobby >> Malachi is a Florida man.
>> This guy seems very getable on your show. He has a story to tell.
>> We tried.
>> Have we?
>> Well, we we just just the last month I remember I sent it to you and you asked should we have Jess tried to find her find him? So I think >> if only you knew a great private investigator in Florida who could find him for you and provide you with his name, address, phone number, and email address.
>> Yeah. The the problem is so that a lot of times like Jess will say, "Well, what about Tom?" And I think I don't want to I don't want to bother you.
>> I would like to see the Malachi Love episode of Inside True Grime and Matt Cox so much that I'll do this one for free.
>> How hilarious would that be for him to be like, "Come on, what are you doing?
Stop it. Stop it.
>> This guy's amazing.
>> But you don't understand." But no, I understand. This guy's amazing.
>> The delusion that you're going to be able to continue to get get away with it. The problem is at some point >> Mhm.
>> he's young. He's goes in, he hasn't had a hard experience yet. He hasn't got a lot of time yet. So, at some point something will happen and he'll get a 15-year sentence and he'll be like, I don't understand. I did this and got a couple years and this and got a couple years.
>> The pitch you do to this kid is you say, kid, you got an amazing story to tell.
America has fallen in love with your story. This is the proper venue to tell it for you to get a book deal, get your sell your life rights, get a movie made.
You are a young a young Frank Abagnail, but your story is real and this is the place to make it take off because you got a million viewers and he just needs to drive two or three hours >> with his ankle monitor on.
>> Um >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Because Yeah. He's he's got a problem.
I'll find this guy. has to figure out how to how to >> how to redirect that that energy into something else cuz it's not like he's going to go get a job at McDonald's. He might for a little bit.
>> Anyone who googles his name is not going to hire him now, especially after the embezzlement.
>> You can't trust him, >> right? So, he needs to monetize his historic stories and uh and you're the proper venue for him to do that. Hit me up. We'll make this happen.
>> All right.
>> Let's talk about the game show because I know you're growing your channel and it just keeps growing and growing and growing and maybe this is the first time people have seen us together. You normally have people on your show who are either criminals or have a story to tell about crime and uh and you kind of walk them through their story and you're very good at it. You've developed a lot of a huge following for that. But once a month or so, you bring me into the studio and I'm a retired FBI agent currently working as a licensed private investigator here in Florida. And what I do is we switch it up a little bit and I kind of host the show and I come in with 12 different crime stories. True crime stories, most of which are from the FBI's perspective. Some of which I worked, others are other agents cases. I tell you the entire crime story from beginning to end. And then you, Matt Cox, need to guess what the sentence is.
Yes. For these bad guys. And if you're within 25% or one year of the actual sentence, you get a point. If you hit it on the head, you get two points. And the idea is for you to get at least 50% of the available points correct during the course of the show. If that happens, you win. If that doesn't happen, you lose. I am not a contestant in this thing. I'm just hosting. And I'm not trying to trick you. I just want you to do >> Oh, that's a lie. That's not true. And on top of that, you're a professional because you just won a game show host. I mean, you just won a game show.
>> I did. I did. I was just on a game show on ABC television called The Greatest Average American, hosted by comedian Nate Bargotsi. It's now available streaming on Hulu. It's episode 8 if you want to watch. And I comp competed against two other contestants in a quiz show format to win the a the money from an average American salary for one year, which is $67,000.
>> Nice, right?
>> Yeah, it was a good experience.
>> Yeah, I guess. I guess.
>> Have you watched the Have you watched my episode?
>> No. Do you have >> Hulu at home? Um, >> no, I don't have It's on Hulu.
>> Yeah. No, Hulu's own by Disney. ABC is owned by Disney. It's a whole thing.
I should get I used to have Hulu when I was in the house. I had it.
>> Listen, you get the real thing every month right here. This is the cash register. So, uh don't worry about it.
But but um I played really really poorly and I still won.
>> I love it. The So the story that he that uh um Tom told us off air was that when it started he was like, "Oh, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna rake up. I'm going to rake up." He said, "And and then you said like the first question you lost.
>> Round one is four questions. I got the first three wrong. I was walking into the last question with zero points. The girls were kicking my ass.
>> He was like, he's like, "Oh my god. Oh my god. I'm going to lose this thing."
I thought that was funny that then you you came back, >> it was the most terrifying thing in the world. It was like a freight train was headed at me. Three questions. Uh, and I had gotten all three wrong. There's only four questions in round one, and I needed to put a point on the board to make it to round two. and and I'm just watching my reputation as kind of a smart guy go down the toilet. Yeah, it's terrifying. Anyway, but let's not talk about that game show. Let's play our game show. When people talk about offshore banking, what what what comes to mind? What like what's the what's the vibe they're trying to put out there and is it a thing?
>> Um I I it is a you can offshore bank.
You can send money to a bank in the Cayman Islands or in St. Kits or whatever. Uh I think people the misunderstanding is that they think by doing that it somehow shields the money and that the government the US government doesn't they don't even know you have the money and they don't but that's not true. They notify them that hey he does have there's a there's a bank account they might say not how how much but they'll they'll I think at the end of the year they still say hey this is how much >> interest it generated or something.
There's still a reporting criteria involved in having an offshore bank. So, as soon as that happens, I immediately think, okay, well, then what's the point?
>> Mhm.
>> Like, and and I do understand we've had a guy on here who would set up corporations and those corporations would open up offshore banks and that was not in your name. And so, he had a whole system, >> but he also I think he got charged with moneyaundering. So, it's like if you can get it to a point where it's not attached to you and all you have is like a the debit card, >> it it ends up potentially being moneyaundering, you know? So, >> I don't know. I mean, so that that's my understanding where I just feel like, okay, I mean, if that's the case, why don't you just open up a a corporation here and open a bank here?
Like, why why do you have to go offshore? I trust an American bank more than I do some Cayman Island bank that could go under and just they take your money.
>> There's a revolution in some uh you know, >> yeah, it was Panama.
>> Yeah.
>> I got $100 million in a Panameanian bank and one day they say, "Ah, we're going to nationalize all that and we're taking all this money.
>> It's not without risk." Yeah.
>> What do you do?
>> Right. But I think for a lot of people who are involved in crime or even investments, the idea of an offshore bank, it's sexy. It is sexy, right? It makes you feel like you're getting away with something. Yeah.
>> Right. And that's exactly what Joseph Sullivan was selling to his investors.
He was a kind of a low-level grifter in Honolulu, and I was assigned the case to investigate him because what he was doing was he was going around to people in Hawaii who he knew and trusted. Oh, here's an interesting thing. He was part of the Rotary Club. What do you know about Rotary Clubs?
I mean it it I don't Are there still Rotary clubs?
>> There are. And they're pretty benevolent. They have a you know they just like a bunch of businessmen that get together.
>> Yeah. To trade ideas and and try to see is this beneficial for all of us and they have these credos and they raise money for charity and all that is. So a Rotary Club because there's so much trust and it's so built on ethics becomes an becomes an opportunity for an affinity fraud, right? Where people trust fellow Rotarians. I've had several cases involving Rotarians taking advantage of other Rotarians. That's not to say the Rotary Club's bad. It just means that the bad guys know that that's a targetrich environment for them. And that's what Joe Sullivan does. He's part of the Hawaii Kai Rotary Club in uh in Honolulu. And um he began offering his fellow Rotarians and people that he knew investments in offshore bank certificates of deposit that paid 15% to 20% per year. Okay. And again, because people have romanticized offshore banks, whereas a CD, if you bought went to Bank of Hawaii and got it, it's going to pay 1% if you're lucky, right? CDs aren't paying much of anything these days.
>> And so people are really excited to give him money in exchange for CDs from the First Bank of the Marshall Islands and um and other exotic sounding financial institutions from small little islands in the Pacific Theater. What they didn't know is that Joe was producing these CDs at home on his computer. There was no first credit union of the Marshall Islands or anything like that. He would literally take money from a victim, go to go home, create a CD, and give them this piece of paper as if it was something of value.
>> Right? Don't lose this. Put this in your secure safety deposit. This is a this is a bearer instrument and uh and and and your money's on deposit there and it's earning you know 15 to 20% per year and which is pretty good investment because if you're get if you're getting 15% on your money and it's compounding you're going to double your money every five years. That's the way the math works on 15%. It's a magic number.
>> Um >> when you had a seal seal always makes it feel official.
>> Oh yeah had the bumpy seal too.
>> Oh nice nice boss. Yeah, he went to Office Max, got the bumpy seal. And so people started trying to get their money back and he's like, "Listen, you don't want to do that. The early withdrawal penalties are just too high." Eventually, they contact the >> I have to go to jail.
>> Eventually, it lands on my desk. I look into it. There's no basis in reality for this stuff. I'm looking at Joe's bank account. It's going in his personal bank account getting spent on just kind of living expenses and all that. But he had he was able to take in um $1.8 million from victims over a couple years. You're very trusting in Hawaii, huh?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's a Rotarian. They trust each other. And uh and so I remember the the day. And so I go to Joe's house. It's two little sub stories before we get to a sentence. Go to Joe's house, knock on the door, he's not there. I leave my business card cuz he was living with some old lady who was actually a victim of his um who put him up in uh in her high-rise condo in in near Wy Ki. He calls me back. I said, "Joe, listen. I need to talk to you about a couple things. Can you come into my office? We'll talk." Um, he comes in without a lawyer, thank heavens. And, uh, sit down with him in a, uh, in a interview room and, uh, and I begin kind of leaning into him. I had my confession already written out that I wanted him to sign. And, um, I said, "Joe, listen, this is a real problem here, these CDs.
I I know that you're um, creating them and that these are," and he goes, "No, these are real banks." He goes, "But I've incorporated these banks in these on these island nations." And so I am the bank of the Marshall Islands. I said, "Yeah, but that's not how it works, man."
>> And he go and he goes, "No, no. They they've given me the money. I am the bank. I owe them 15 to 20%. I'm not denying that that they I owe them this money. I just don't have it right now."
I said, "But Joe, when you tell somebody that they're buying a bank, a CD, it's um there's an implication that there is a brick andmortar bank there that's involved in banking business, like making loans and and investing that money because that's how banks work.
>> What was he investing the money in?"
>> Investing like scratch off lottery tickets and stuff. I don't know what he was doing. He was just living large.
>> I got this shirt.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> My vehicle. I went to dinner last night.
>> My credit cards got paid off.
>> Investing in me.
>> Yeah. That's that was his argument to me. And I go, "Okay, well, maybe we can agree to disagree about whether this is right, but I think we can both agree that you owe them this money. And do you intend to pay this money back sometime?"
He goes, "Yeah, okay. All right. Well, I have a little statement here." And I I take the statement, I turn it around. I go, "Let's walk through this together."
And and just went through everything.
You know, the money was given to me. I told them that I I failed to tell them this and this and this and this. And so, he signs the confession. He goes, "Where does this go from here?" I go, "Joe, I don't know, but I but this doesn't this is not good." And I go, >> "Now you're going to get a very honest opinion because I have this kind confession."
>> So I go to a photo. I say, "Wait here."
I go to a photocopy machine. I make a photocopy of the confession he just signed. At the time, the FBI was in the federal building where the federal courthouse is in Honolulu. Eventually, we moved to our own office. I go, "Come with me, Joe. I think what you need is an attorney. Do you have the money for an attorney? A defense attorney?" He goes, "No, I don't. I'm broke now." And I go, "No problem. Come with me." And we and I walk him to the federal defender's office. We knock on the door to the federal defender's office. We go in. I'm standing there with Joe. Now, the federal defenders all know me because I was making a lot of cases in Honolulu >> and like, "What's going on, Tom?" I go, "This is Joe Sullivan. He needs a criminal defense attorney." And so, I remember there a attorney comes out and like, "Uh, what's what do you mean?" I go, "He's the focus of one of my investigations." And we've come to that point where he needs a criminal defense attorney to kind of walk him through this. And she goes, "Okay, I guess I can meet with you in my office, sir." her and I go, "One thing you need is this."
And I hand her the confession that he had just signed. The ink is still wet on it, a photocopy of it. She looks at she goes, "What's this?" I go, "It's it's the statement he just signed. I think it'll get you up to speed on what the case is about." And and you can see her face. She looks at me like, "You are such an Tom." And she goes, "Thank you." And so, so Joe now is has a criminal defense attorney. And then one day I get a call again in a federal building. It's lovely because everything's in one place. Yeah. There's the passport office on the ground floor.
I get a call from someone in the passport office that I knew who said, "We got a weird passport application for a guy who wants a passport. I think um and I think there's something about it that doesn't look right. Can you come take a look at it?" I go down there. Joe had gone to the passport office to get a passport under a fake name. And uh and I'm looking at it and his photo is there on it. I go, "I know this guy." I go, "He just signed a confession a week ago to me." Um and and I go, "Here's what you do. call him up and tell him that you need him to resign a couple more documents to get the passport and uh and then you'll have the passport for him.
And so they call him, he comes in, he's sitting in a conference room and I walk into the conference room and he looked like, "Oh my god, he got caught again."
So this time we actually arrest him for the passport fraud.
>> I thought you were going to sit down, have a conversation. So is that what happened? You like, "Okay, well I have a I have a I have a statement. I need >> No, he was going in. He was he I think David Allen was the name on the passport because and he was explaining to me it's not a fake name. It's my pseudonym.
And And he goes, "I write articles for financial magazines under the name David Allen, and I wanted a passport." I go, "You wanted a passport so you could skip town because you know that you're in trouble."
>> We put the cuffs on and we bring him to the jail. Uh, and so he ends up pleading guilty to both the investment fraud for the 1.8 million and the um and the passport fraud for attempting to get a passport under a fake name, which kind of makes he's not getting he's not getting out during this window of time.
and um and he had a decent criminal history for kind of small griffs like bad checks and stuff like that. So, let's say criminal history category 2.
How much time are you going to give to one of my favorite con artists, Joe Sullivan?
1.8 million was the uh was the CD scam plus the passport plus a criminal history. I just I really love the fact that he just was still trying to spin you when he's licking the like and listen the moment the FBI or the the authorities walk in like I'm I'm just like >> like it's over.
>> That's the thing with you con artist though. You think he could talk yourself out of anything cuz that's your skill.
>> I have like I I mean I' I've I've done it when like the detective came in, right? But I mean the detective has no he he's calling me when they when they walk in they're like calling you Gary Sullivan. you're like, "Okay, I've got the biggest hurdle out of the way."
So, now it's just confusing the situation. But with him, it's obvious.
You're like, >> "I've got you."
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, 36 months.
>> 36 months. Three years for $1.8 million with no financial recovery.
>> Yeah. 36 months. You You just But you you said he's got some minor things.
What is his crim got a criminal history?
in criminal history category too.
>> Oh, >> cuz uh again again he had he was kind of a con artist. I think his crimes are mostly like bad checks and forgeries and things like that like state crimes.
And I'm not saying 36 months is a bad guess. I just want >> 41. I'll go 41 months. I'll most 41.
>> 41 months.
>> There's no way you're getting us any more than 41 months.
>> Okay. So three years five months.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So that's your final answer, M.
>> Yes. The correct answer is 55 months. So I think you missed that by a couple months on the one-year rule or unless it's in within 25%.
>> So >> what's 80% of 55?
>> It's it's uh 75% right.
>> Oh, you're right.
>> So 75% of 55 is 41.25.
>> But you guessed 41. So unfortunately you are >> you're off by two months.
>> A no not even two months. A week. a week. I'm off by a week. This is some >> So, when you hear the term money mule, what do you think?
>> Uh someone who, you know, someone who moves money from one place uh to another with for for some illegal organization.
>> Okay. Like like a money launderer.
>> No, because I always think of that going through the bank. I think of a mule is like somebody who's trying to get cash into Mexico or, you know, or trying to get cash, you know, from whatever from China into the United States. Like they're moving physical cash. I don't think of it as >> as >> Yeah. Yeah. That that's what I think about. Am I wrong? Is that >> No, no, no. I think that's that's that's the history of being a money mule. Money mules have kind of changed as far as the internal FBI term money mule. Um because a lot of people out there get ripped off in scams involving uh like romance scams or work from home scams where their job is to receive money in the mail, cash in the mail from what they don't what they think it's business, legitimate business, but it's actually crime victims and then to turn that money into cryptocurrency or go to Western Union and wire it to your employer in Nigeria.
But the middlemen, these money mules are unwitting money launderers. Right. I was going to say I feel like that's money laundering. That's >> it is. But they don't know that they're to getting stolen proceeds because they think they're legitimate proceeds from either their boyfriend or a work from home job.
>> How come people believe that?
>> Oh my god, man. I've talked to hundreds who believe that they're mostly little ladies.
And I'm not saying they're smart. I'm saying that I'm saying that it's a real problem for us because they're moving a lot of money for bad guys and they think they're they think they're doing it legitimately. So what we created at the FBI is a money mule letter where we would go to them explain to them that what they're doing is illegal. Give them a letter and say if you continue doing this you now h you now have the consciousness of guilt. You do you no longer have the luxury of saying that you thought this was legitimate because we are notifying you right here right now that the activity you are doing is illegal.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So there was a um a lonely Massachusetts lady named Betty.
Uh she found love Matt Cox.
>> Nice. It's nice to find love >> online with a guy named Charles. Super handsome dude. Super charming dude.
>> Wasn't Kiana Reeves.
>> No. And over the course of their long-distance romance, Charles manipulated Betty with elaborate lies to turn her into an unwitting money launderer.
Charles created uh this guy Charles created romance scam profiles to charm not only Betty but five other lady victims.
He remains back in Nigeria working this lonely hard scam like a digital puppet master. Okay. The women believing that they were doing a favor for their fictitious online boyfriend. They would wire money to Betty to her bank account. And Betty believing that she was helping her boyfriend with his business would forward it to Charles in Bitcoin. You get the flow of money.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay.
>> We're not talking nickels and dimes here. MCO Charles was able to extract $2.5 million from these ladies and every dime of it was converted to Bitcoin by Betty who sent it along as she was told. Okay. The banks notify the FBI who gains the cooperation of Betty. Okay. I've been I've had dozens of those conversations where you're trying to deprogram these ladies and explain that this is not your boyfriend.
>> This is a this is a con artist who happens to be in Nigeria. It's not just Nigeria. I love Nigerians. Best people.
Um but but this happens a lot with Nigerians. It also happens with Indians.
It also happens with uh with China and and Ukraine and other countries. But Nigeria >> foreigners >> there have there have been bad guys here in the US who commit frauds. Maybe you know a few.
>> They're misunderstood.
>> I'm just saying that Nigeria is a very big country and there's a lot of people out there who don't commit fraud who are saddled with this reputation and it's not right. It's just not right.
Oh my god.
>> All right.
>> Two and a half million in Nigeria. Like, do you think this guy can just pull off this one time scam and just live off that forever?
>> Yeah. He's probably paying officials.
He's paying off. But yeah. Oh, can you imagine what a million dollars in Nigeria is worth? Really? It's probably worth seven mill like having seven million. Having been on the agent side of this, these cases are very difficult and frustrating because even if you figure out which Nigerian is behind the scam, Nigeria is hesitant to serve up their own citizens to the US authorities for trial. Yeah, >> I'm not saying that the Nigerian government the Nigerian government realizes they have a reputational problem on their hands. They've become much better actually lately at at enforcing these fraud laws internally and cooperating with the FBI. But it's drinking from a fire hose. But the FBI agents are and working with our legal attache at the American embassy in Abuja, Nigeria, were able to identify who it was. And the bad guy was Charles uh Noad Noveid.
>> His real name was Charles.
>> Yeah.
>> Huh.
>> Yeah. Why not? Why not? If you're going to be Charles, be Charles. When I was undercover, I was always Tom.
>> Yeah. Feels like he's he was protected.
He definitely felt protected.
>> Yeah. problem is Charles is safely in in Nigeria beyond the grasp of the FBI, but they have they they know who he is.
>> So they put a warrant on the books um for his arrest should he happen to come to the US. And gosh darn it, that's exactly what he did >> really >> on his own. He flies into Dallas, Texas, okay, to do heaven knows what. No one's more surprised than like, you know, immigration and customs at the border when they run his name and ID and passport and they see that the he's wanted by the FBI. They lock they put the cuffs on him right there, lock him up. He ends up um pleading guilty to fraud and moneyaundering charges.
Okay. What's interesting is that no money was recovered and it's probably just sitting there in his Bitcoin wallet, a couple million bucks, waiting for him to get out of prison after he serves a sentence where he'll be deported right back to Nigeria. It's >> just growing and growing and growing >> or shrinking and shrinking, however the value, whichever way the value of Bitcoin goes over the course of his sentence. The question for you though is how long is that sentence?
>> We got five victims plus we have five victims plus Betty the money-winning moneyaunderer $2.5 million.
Betty does not get in trouble, but Betty is admonished to never ever do this again. How long before Charles gets to go back to Nigeria and enjoy his life as a Nigerian millionaire?
How how long do you, the American taxpayer, want to pay for his care and feeding before we send him back to Nigeria?
>> I need the guidelines so I can actually find out what would be a fun game where you just get to put together the jigsaw puzzle. I'm asking you I'm asking you to guess the sentence, >> but I know that I think I want to say 51 months like he doesn't have a criminal history in the United States, but I'm sure there's an enhancement for stealing from or having money. Why? I'm sure they hit him with some enhancements.
>> You got hit by moneyaundering. I mean, he put not only fraud, but moneyaundering.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, so I'm I'm going to say 51 months. I think 51 months is reasonable.
>> So 51 months is where you're going with this?
>> Yeah.
>> All right. Well, let's move this thing forward. 51 months is your guess. The correct answer is 24 months.
>> That is some Yeah, >> that's some >> I just think the decision gets made on how long what what's the goal here? What are we trying to do?
>> I mean, the guidelines are are are they're supposed, >> right? But they're supposed to kind of help balance the fairness.
>> I loved the guidelines back when the judges had to stay within the lines.
Then the Supreme Court said they're just advisory. And all the judges said, "Hip hip, hooray. We now have our authority back." And now the sentences are all over the map.
>> I wonder what he was coming to America for. Was any of his girlfriends located in Dallas?
>> Um, we never found out. I don't believe he decided to share that information.
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>> Did uh do you have any musical talents?
You have grown up playing any musical instruments at all, piano or anything like that?
>> I'm not I have very I'm not athletically talented. I am not musically intelligent.
>> You ever took piano lessons?
>> No.
>> You never picked up a guitar and thought I'm going to meet some girls.
>> No. No.
>> Never tried.
>> I mean, I think I have I've had buddies who had good when I was 14 years old, I had a couple buddies that thought they were all going to be in a band. They had you. But I'm Look, look at my fingers.
It's not possible.
>> I tried fat little chubby things. It's not.
>> I got a guitar and when I was in college and I thought this is going to be it for me. I'm going to be a rock star. And I tried and I bought a Mel Bay book on which had the chords for like Beatles songs where you learn to like strum.
>> I must be the biggest It hurt my fingers so much putting those uh pushing those uh those wires down. I would get these like bruises on my fingers and they cut into you.
>> They have you know they build up calluses of course.
>> Goodness. I it uh I had no talent for that. Let's talk about violins. If you had to play an instrument, would violin be on your uh >> how high would that be?
>> No, I don't think it'd be violin.
>> Be like a fiddler?
>> No.
>> Play a bluegrass band?
>> No.
>> Play the what is it? The the is it the Oh, man. What do they call that? The soap thing where they the boom boom boom. It's the they flip a tub upside down. It's the boom boom >> with you and your jug band.
>> Yeah, exactly. The guy with the big blowing in the jug, you know.
>> All right. Well, our subject is 57 >> I think of his tambourines.
>> I have it.
>> Yeah, you're a background singer. Our subject is 57year-old Mark Mang MG of Irvine, California. And he aspired to criminal greatness. I think he'd be another great guest on your show. He claimed to be a wealthy collector of 200year-old violins and he contacted rare violin dealers. He convinced the dealers, and I can't believe this is the way the industry works, to allow him to take the instruments home for a couple days to test them before purchasing, like when you're going to go drive a Chevy. But they give and so they give him violins, five in all, with a cumulative value of these rare 200-y old violins of $350,000.
And Mark just bolts, just doesn't return the violins, steals the violins. Okay, these are antiques. He takes them to Los Angeles.
Where was he? He was in Irvine. So, he goes to LA and he sells them to another dealer who was unaware that those violins were hot.
>> Mhm.
>> Following.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. So, the FBI has a art crime team.
>> I was going to say our art artists, it sounds great, but it's very difficult to to get rid of like like people like, "Well, go steal a a Van Go." Okay.
You're not getting rid of You're not getting rid of a Van Go, bro. You're gonna have a real problem. Like, >> Right. Right. Um, >> I'm sure violins are probably easier to move, but >> yeah, >> it's just still going to be a problem.
>> FBI is investigating. Mark learns that the feds are on his tail. He gets he gets a call from somebody who knows, hey, they're asking questions about you.
So, he decides to do what any logical person would do after you've committed a $350,000 theft. He puts on a mask, goes into a bank, and demands $18,000 cash from a teller with a note. Perfectly reasonable, perfectly logical. Go move, right?
>> 18, not 19, not 17. I'm going to need 18.
>> He tells the he tells the teller to >> One thing I like about it is that when he uh in his bank rob when he robbed the bank, he told the teller to be cool.
>> Be cool, bro.
>> Yeah, exactly. So, he's clearly a homie.
The teller did not have 18 grand in her drawer, but she gave him what she could and he made his getaway in a white minivan. Now, despite wearing gloves during the robbery, the police were able to develop a fingerprint on the bank robbery note.
That's where you go wrong, right? You you write the bank robbery note. You try not to touch that stuff because it's pretty easy to bring a fingerprint out from paper. Um, and they match that bank robbery note to Mark.
The police and the FBI go to his house to arrest him. They find him home alone with the white minivan getaway car parked in the driveway. Okay. So, Mark gets charged federally with wire fraud for the vi violin scam and and the bank robbery itself. Okay. Um, I feel like he could have been one of the greats, >> but now he's just another chump in a jumpsuit, right? So, I'm curious though, how much time, if you're the Do you think the judge gave old Mark?
>> How much did he get for the violins?
>> $350,000.
>> Sheesh.
>> And the bank robbery was some amount less than $18,000. You probably >> did the violins get returned.
>> Yeah, I think they were able to unwind those. Um, yeah.
>> And does that matter in sentencing?
It might have for restitution but not for sentencing. Again, it if I'm it sort of the guy who bought the violins in good faith really is the one who got screwed in this thing. So, I guess he owes restitution to that guy.
>> Yeah.
>> That's the guy he got 350,000 bucks from.
>> How much were the violins worth?
>> Well, >> he sold it for 350.
>> You know, these things are priceless.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's like So, what are you going to go with? Yeah. Go with the 350.
So, um, it's really the bank robbery is the problem. So, let's say I'm going to say, uh, >> no weapon was brandished.
>> Yeah. Yeah. 41 months.
>> 41 months in prison.
>> Yeah. I know a guy that robbed two banks with a note.
>> He got 36 months.
>> You're more offended by the bank robbery than you are the violin scam.
>> Um, no. I just think I I I think I have more I think that they take the the bank robbery more serious than the because than the bank than the um violin scam.
Even though I understand it's a higher dollar amount that 350,000 like you could get probation for 350. You maybe get six months at the most for 350 if you don't have any additional charges.
And so let's say so I'm saying he's he's he's under a year on the 350. That let you know anybody but he's pleading guilty. They'll probably run them concurrent. So I'm more concerned. I think the more serious of the two is the bank robbery. He did use a note. So he's not going to get like five or 10 years.
He's going to get like three years. So but there you also have the other one.
So let's say let's say 41 months.
>> 41 months. Final answer.
>> Yeah. Those of you playing at home, please lock in your answers. The correct answer is 46 months. You got it.
>> And then you tried to I know you tweaked it a little. You threw a little tweak in there. You were trying to maybe >> I did nothing to get you. I just wanted you I wanted to I like to hear your thought process and I'm sure that the audience wants to hear your thought process >> whenever I whenever people like well I don't understand what do you do I well we tell a story Jess will bring up the story thing I'm like and then I'll say yeah it's 36 months and Tom will go well let let me let me hear your thought process on that okay so there's 57 victims okay okay 17 mill and you think and you're okay like does that seem I'm not trying to change your mind and then I said then I doubt it and I go okay uh uh uh Yeah. Yeah. 56 months. And I And then you Okay. And then he turns to go the next one. I go, "Well, wait. How much was it?" And he goes, "36 months."
And it's like everybody think And it's like he's >> My bride finds this delightful as well.
>> Jess finds it hilarious.
>> Yeah. So we've done four questions. How was he doing?
>> Uh 204.
>> All right. You're at 50%.
>> This is much more fair. This this new system with with the giant amount of time that you're allowed to be wrong on.
Yeah. Maybe we'll do a multiple choice some show. All right. Um, I know you were not a big athlete, but do you have much contact with rugby people, rugby players in the sport of rugby?
>> I I could confidently say I there's a there's a a 90% chance I probably even never met a rugby player.
>> Rugy's culture is very unique among sports. Um, I >> they're rough guy, rough and tumble.
>> Yeah, I I would have liked rugby because it's not um it's very violent. There's a lot of hitting. There's not a lot of pads. I there's a physicality to rugby that's attractive to me. Um I just never had an opportunity to play rugby.
>> More European thing, right?
>> It's bigger in Europe, but it's also kind of very big among colleges. And then there's kind of like rugby clubs.
Okay. Um weird and this has nothing to rug. We're going to talk about rugby as an affinity fraud and like rugby people trusting each other. There's a weird cultural thing with rugby and I'd love for people to weigh in this in the comments if they're like involved with rugby. I went on a spring break trip in during college that it was like one of those prepackaged spring break trips with like a cruise and you were all staying in a resort together and all that in the Bahamas and the Clemson where I went to college rugby team was also there and they were hooking up with a bunch of other rugby teams. Rugby dudes, they party hard.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And um and nice nicest guys in the world one-on-one, but they party really hard and get really rowdy. But there's something about rugby culture where they like to get naked and streak during parties and like like we went on like a booze cruise with the rugby team and they were all like within like an hour and a half absolutely naked with their dongs out jumping off like the top deck of the boat into the ocean and they just love getting naked.
>> I've never heard this.
>> Yeah. So this is part of the rugby culture that I would not have kind of latched on to because I'm sober.
>> But uh Shane Moore was a former semi-pro rugby player. I guess that's a thing. Um I don't understand what semipro means. I feel like either you're getting paid or you're not, but it's a thing. Um anyway, and he began soliciting investments um including from rugby players, which makes it kind of an affinity fraud because people trust people in their affinity group.
>> Yes.
>> Offering huge investment returns of 1% per day in his investment program which involved crypto mining. Do you know what crypto mining is?
>> Yeah. They buy these uh what are the the processors or whatever.
>> Sounds like a supercomput that uses a lot of energy. Yeah. That does the kind of math behind Bitcoin and as a result of doing that, you know, it's a lot of energy costs involved as well as the hardware.
>> You're creating Bitcoin for yourself.
It's called crypto mining.
>> And he said he would be using investor funds to buy these high-powered crypto mining computers. My brother has one set up at his house. Brother, don't get me started. um that would uh generate consistent Bitcoin profits. Okay, so 1% a day. Pretty good investment, right?
Wouldn't you like to make 1% a day, Matt Cox?
>> Yeah, that's great.
>> Here's the problem and the shocker. He never bought a single Bitcoin mining machine with the money he took in. He raised $900,000 from 40 different victims.
>> Wow. many of whom were in his rugby community, but some were family members, some were friends across five different states. And he used new money to pay off the old investors, their investment returns >> in what we call >> Yeah. a Ponzi scheme. Ponzi scheme.
Definition of a Ponzi scheme.
>> Yeah. And then he's also taking a good bit of that money because there's there's plenty left over for himself, >> right?
>> Expensive for a while.
>> Expensive apartments. He was into designer luggage.
What is that a thing?
>> It's a thing. Some people got expensive suitcases. He liked his luggage. Fancy electronics. Um I don't really know what that means. A really good iPad. Um only the best for Shane. Shane's Shane is uh he likes the he likes the best. So what happens with Ponzi schemes eventually?
>> Uh eventually it collapses.
>> Why do they collapse? They collapse because you you can't pay back the old you can't collect new investors fast enough to pay off the old investors and eventually it just kind of mushrooms and collapses.
>> That's exactly what happened. And then what happens is the victims who aren't getting their 1% per day returns as promised begin calling the FBI, my former colleagues in Seattle, Washington.
>> Yeah. I feel like rugby players are not the guys you you want to owe money to.
>> These are some tough dudes.
>> They're like they're physical people.
>> They don't need pads to hit you. really sh coming over to your house, Shane.
>> Yeah. Uh and so um yeah, so the FBI does their investigation. They realize that there was no real crypto mining business and he was just using the funds to bankroll himself and pay back other people. So let's talk about the Ponzi math because that's significant for you.
So he takes in $900,000 but he returned but investors only lost $400,000 because he took 500,000 of that money and used it to create the illusion of investment returns. So the net loss to investors is $400,000. Make sense?
>> Right. Yeah.
>> Okay. Because that's and that's how the federal sentencing guidelines are computed. I disagree with that. I think it should be computed for I think the gross should be it. But I don't get to make those decisions. The Supreme Court has ruled on this and they never asked my opinion.
>> You think so? You you think it because what? Because of the potential loss?
>> I know. Because I have stolen $900,000 from you. Just because I decide to kind of continue this fraud by giving some back to you, I shouldn't get credit in my sentencing for that. I should be on the hook for the entire dollar amount.
>> But nobody listens to me. No.
>> Who the hell am I?
>> Yeah. That's how I feel because, by the way, because that that's when my sentence was >> there was the gross loss, not >> the gross loss. And of course, my my lawyer tried to argue, "Your honor, a lot of that money went right back to his codefendants. They went to pay mortgage payments and went to buy other property." And the judge is like, "Yeah, I think he got the line share of it."
>> Yeah, I know. You got screwed, dude.
>> So wrong.
>> Yeah. So, he only got to enjoy 400,000 of this money. That's what the sentencing guidelines were based on.
That's what the judge considers at sentencing. I will give you a clue before you guess the sentence. At the sentencing hearing, the judge went on at length about the emotional and psychological damage Shane caused to his victim investors. This wasn't just about financial harm for the judge.
>> How many victims?
>> 40 victims.
>> I have a question. Um like when it's an infinity fraud, that's kind of when it's like their group of trust.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Now, does that enhance any sentencing?
No.
>> And then um what is the ranges like victim wise? It's like is it 0 to five then >> in the sentencing guidelines?
>> Yeah, >> I think it's 25 or more and then 100 or more.
>> Okay.
>> I think it's like I think it starts at like five. I think it's like 10. I think it's 0 to 10 and then it's 25 and then it's 50 and then it's goes up to 100 and then it's >> it's been a while. Yeah.
>> Um I could be wrong.
>> But then there's another enhancement if you're using mass marketing to market your investment fraud, but I don't get the impression he was. But we have 40 victims.
>> Didn't need to. He's got a the club of guys. One guy tells another guy, >> 40 victims over five states, uh, who ended up with a net loss of 400,000.
Psychological damage, emotional damage.
Matt Cox, how much time you going to give Shane Moore, the rugby guy?
>> The fact that the judge hated his guts is, you know, tells you >> he might have been on a cruise where rugby guys were jumping around with their dogs out.
>> Um, maybe pro, maybe, I don't know, he plead guilty. Didn't get a trial. Maybe 24 months.
>> 24 months.
>> Two years. You you think that's you think that's too much?
>> I'm just asking. Yeah. I mean, this is I mean, he took out he took $900,000 under false pretenses. He gave some of it back.
>> The guidelines say 400,000.
>> I get it, but we're also talking 40 victims and emotional and psychological damage.
>> That's not an enhancement.
>> I'm telling you, the guidelines are advisory.
>> Oh my god. So, you're saying he got hammered?
>> I am saying that I want you to consider the facts before you make your final answer. Um 41 months.
>> 41 months in prison for Shane >> Moore. Yes.
>> Is it Is it possible you could start a rugby club in prison? They allow you to play physical sports like that?
>> No, they don't. They don't. They do have football, but it's it's flag football.
>> Oh, >> yeah.
>> Pickle ball. Probably these days, right?
>> They probably do now. They didn't back then. They had handball.
>> All right. So, your guess is >> let's say 41 months.
>> Final answer.
>> If boy, if you moved me off 24 months, you know what? 24 months.
>> You're going with 24 months.
>> I'm going with 24 months.
I I think you should trust your >> Okay, let me pull myself together.
What's your What's your real guess?
>> 24 months.
>> 24 months. The correct answer is 30 months in prison.
>> That's within a year.
>> You got it. I think we talked once about uh what the fact that you may not have spent much time in uh in Philadelphia, but you ever been to uh a town called Pittston, Pennsylvania?
>> Pennsylvania. I don't ever been to Pennsylvania.
>> Yeah, Pennsylvania is a weird state because it has two very distinct major cities that are could not be more culturally diff different. Right.
Philadelphia reminds me culturally more like New Jersey, New York, right? kind of a a very urban kind of gritty town.
Then you have Pittsburgh on the other side which is really Appalachia, right?
Steel workers and people like that and with and they both have these rabid sports teams and they're just is that that state is strange bedfellows with each other >> like the Steelers or something.
>> Yeah, the Steelers versus like you know the Eagles on the other side and um yeah >> Jess has been to Pennsylvania several times. She has family up there. There's a church in Pittston, Pennsylvania. The First Baptist Church of Pittston, Pennsylvania. The history of this church, I looked into this because I thought this was fascinating, goes back to 1769.
This church has been around.
>> Wow.
>> With it kind of continuous operations.
Um, and the back office of this church for many, many years was handled by a woman, a 62-year-old woman, Gail Navage.
One thing that impressed me about this church is that it's integrated very nicely. Like the communities, African-American and white, and you don't see that a whole lot in churches.
Probably the most segregated hour of America is when everybody goes to their different churches, but this church is really a place people liked this church.
It was a good place to be. Anyway, Gail in her capacities, the church administrator, she had access to the accounting records of the church as well as the church's bank account and credit cards. What's wrong with that, Matt Cox?
uh she has it's it's too much too much responsibility or power it in one person's because they're able to write the checks and oversee the checks and nobody's questioning them and >> cover it up in the accounting. Right.
>> Yeah. It's it's too much. You need to have somebody to double check everything.
>> You're 100% right, man. This is a dangerous level of control to enlist in one person. But Gail was trusted, Matt Cox. She was this trusted blue-haired lovely lady. And uh and that trust ended up costing the church some big money.
We'll talk about why. So, the mechanics Gail ran a fraud scheme, pretty unsophisticated. She uses the church's credit card for her own expenses, >> and she begins cutting unauthorized payroll bonus checks to herself. She covers up her embezzlement in the accounting software, making these look like legitimate expenses of the church.
Okay, same story we've told before here.
Um, how she spent the money was kind of interesting, though, a little different.
Over a 20-month period, she used the church's credit card for $34,000 in personal purchases from Amazon and to buy flowers and to rent movies online.
If you like movies, I like movies, too.
There did not appear to be any extraordinary need for money here, right? She's not doing this to feed an addiction or anything like that. It was a crime of opportunity. Now, the check fraud side of this thing was a lot bigger and it brought her total embezzlement up to $184,000.
That's the number you want to keep in your head.
>> For how long?
>> Um 20 months.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um but the majority of the money that was from the the the checks was going to sports gambling on FanDuel and DraftKings, right? She's betting on sports. Probably the Pittsburgh Steelers. What the hell? How old is this woman?
>> She is 62.
>> This is old bluehaired church lady.
church lady out there gambling.
>> I think you're misunderstanding the depth of Steelers fandom. Pittsburgh Steeler fan. I know I know people who are like FBI agents who have like Pittsburgh Steeler like stamps on the back and stuff like that. Like Steelers fans are way into it. Um eventually the pastor discovers this theft, calls in the FBI. When confronted, Gail provides a full confession and she agrees to begin attending Gamblers Anonymous meetings.
However, even after discovery of the fraud, she declines to voluntarily pay back any of the money from the holdings in her Roth IRA or her cryptocurrency wallet. She's a very young 62, the cryptocurrency wallet and betting on FanDuel and stuff like that.
>> Doesn't want to pay it back. I'm not paying it back. I I'll I'll plead guilty though. She pleads guilty and um she gets ordered to pay the $184,000 in restitution to the Baptist church and which will happen in drips and drabs uh via a garnishment of wages.
>> And um my guess is that she's not going to get a position of trust uh ever again.
>> But um how much time are you going to give Gail the church lady?
>> She's an old lady.
>> $184,000.
an old lady with an addiction problem.
>> Yeah, I know you have a soft spot in your heart for gambling addicts. It's a get out of jail free card for you.
>> It is not a get out of jail. It should be taken into consideration.
>> Mhm.
>> Refuses to pay it back though. She's got the money. It's sitting there in a cryp she has the money in a crypto wallet and in a in a was it Roth IRA?
>> Yeah, Roth IRA.
>> Wait, so she's out all the money in the >> It's not the the problem is Okay, this is a lesson for the viewers. You can't seize and forfeit the money unless it's proceeds of the crime. Okay? Right. Um, you can't substitute assets in the in forfeite law. And so, she's sitting on a big pile of money in her Roth IRA and her cryptocurrency wallet.
>> She's been putting away a little at a time for 30 years or 20 years.
>> Exactly. But that's not the money she stole. The money she stole was pissed away gambling and used to buy in and on Amazon to watch movies. Probably >> sounds reasonable. You can't make her liquidate her retirement fund. That's >> you should be able to >> should not.
>> Absolutely.
>> I disagree.
>> We we'll go round and round about that.
>> Um >> cuz money's funible, Matt Cox. So, I think that if bottom line is she the re the reason she's not drawing upon her Roth IRA, which she's allowed to do at age 59 and a half to pay for her FanDuel, is because she doesn't have to because she's using the church as her ATM.
>> I >> This law is And yet people in higher positions than you have determined otherwise.
>> I agree. Another This is not the United States of Tom Simon. It seems to be the United States of Matt Cox.
>> So how much time you going to give her?
>> Um God, a year.
>> 12 months.
>> Yeah.
>> Did I mention that this is a Baptist church that's been around since 1769? We have a pretty sympathetic victim.
>> It's one victim. integrated church >> 10 months. I'm just joking.
>> Uh 12 months.
>> 12 months in prison. Is that your final answer?
>> Yes.
>> The correct answer. You're doing good today. Is 15 months.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. I I I feel like Yeah. I felt like you were you were close when uh when Tom's rebuttals were uh the church has been around. It's the Baptist church that's been around since >> none of like even h matter like that's not an enhancement. It's an older church. It's an integrated. None of that none of those are enhancements.
>> I'm telling you judges consider all the facts these days. And a sympathetic victim is going to result in a higher sentence than a non-sympathetic victim.
>> It's one church. They didn't go under.
>> Yeah.
>> Did over 20 months. Were you like a carpenter or something like that or were you a tradesman at some point before you got into the mortgage industry?
>> I'm I mean I I was more like a handyman but yeah. Okay. Swing a hammer.
>> Yeah, probably for a couple probably probably a couple years >> of all the >> built all this stuff.
>> Yeah. No, you're talented. Of all the trades.
>> I'm serious. Your studio is >> lack of sincerity is overwhelming.
>> Congratulations. You should be very proud of yourself.
>> Very very impressed.
That >> was good. Where I'm going with this, of all the trades, which one do you think is the toughest?
or the most miserable.
>> Oh gosh. Like it's got to be like like roofing.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah, >> that's the answer I was fishing for.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Yeah, I agree.
>> I can't imagine. I would just not want to be a roofer, >> especially in Florida.
>> That's what I'm saying. Like it's that's miserable.
>> It's 110° in Florida in the summertime and then you're on top of the asphalt like working under the sun with no shade. Like I look at these roofers. I'm like whatever they're paying these dudes is not enough. And they have to cover up completely. You ever see these guys?
Like they're not walking around in in shorts and a shirt. They have to cover their whole bodies because they will just blister burn. So now I have to be in the 100 degree heat and I have to be fully covered because the sun is so damaging.
>> I agree. Yeah, I agree. I totally miserable. Um the largest roofing and waterproofing manufacturer in America is a company called GAF.
They employed a 56-y old guy named John Lasco in Sarasota, Florida, just a little bit south of here, um, as an engineering manager. Okay? And they are the big boys when it comes to making roofing materials.
>> Okay?
>> As part of his job, John would go out and solicit bids for contractors to provide the raw materials and um for GAF and then he would ensure that those contractors were paid for the work they did. in order to steal from his employer. What he did is John went out and incorporated a bunch of companies, okay? Companies that really had no function and then he awarded the contracts to those companies to supply the raw materials for the roofing for to make the shingles that GAF made. Make sense?
>> Yeah.
>> And so, for example, let's do an example. Let's say that GAF needed a h 100red tons of asphalt to make shingles.
John incorporates a business, awards himself the bid at $200 per ton. He goes out to find an actual asphalt deal. I was just thinking that.
>> Yeah.
>> He's just skimming off the top >> to sell him the asphalt for $100 a ton.
And then John pockets the $100 per ton difference between the actual cost of it and the uh and the cost that he's charging his employer. Pretty clever scheme.
>> It is.
>> Mhm. So, he keeps this going for a while with GAF paying his fake companies that he controls $1.3 million.
>> Wow.
>> Before his bosses learned that John was the contractor that they are paying for the asphalt. Now, to be clear, John's profit from the 1 $1.3 million is the gross. His profit was only a few hundred,000 off of that from this from the skim.
>> So, that's so that's that's what his that's what his dollar amount is, right?
Yeah. You don't you want to hit him for the whole two million even though his intent was never to keep the two million only to get a couple hundred thousand.
>> He should be a defense attorney. He should go back to school, be uh go to the law school of hard knocks.
>> Um and I sadly I don't have the exact dollar amount of his profit. But yeah, what we're really talking here is the scam of a few hundred,000 was the number which came came out.
>> Um >> one victim >> GAF calls the FBI who bust John on fraud charges. Here's the thing you need to think about though. John has a massive wrap sheet for different frauds and swindles.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um, which makes me think the GF should have hired me as a Florida private investigator to maybe screen their people.
>> Yeah, you can't give that much power to one guy, but they did figure it out at some point. Like, so something went wrong. I wonder what went wrong. What went wrong, but >> um yeah, not sure, but that's that's pretty much the story. And so um so again, it was $1.8 $8 million of um of uh of gross, you know, that he took in for this thing, but his profit was only a few hundred,000, but lengthy wrap sheet >> for this kind of embezzlement skimming scheme.
>> So, what are we saying? His loss amount is a couple hundred thousand.
>> Say 200,000, maybe 200, let's say 200,000, 300,000.
>> But he's got he's on category five or something like that.
>> It's through the roof. Like this guy, this guy is a frauds and swindles king.
You look at his rap sheet, it goes on for pages. He there's not enough toner to print it out.
>> 120 months.
>> 120 months. 10 years for a financial crime.
>> You said his his you know there's not there's not a bunch of enhancements, but so >> I like the new Matt Cox. It's actually looking to put this guy away.
>> Well, it's not that it's not it's not that I think that that's fair. is it's that I think that I know that very quickly like if you're in category, you know, category two, it's you can almost, you know, almost double what you would have gotten, right? If you're in category three or four or five, like I mean it starts in >> the law discriminates against people with a wrap sheet.
>> It incre It increases rapidly. So I'm thinking if he didn't have a wrap sheet at all, I'd say he's probably looking at two years for >> Well, no. No. Oh, wait a minute. I'm sorry. I'm still thinking the one point uh 7 uh >> let's say it's $300,000 in that.
>> You know what? Yeah. I'm sorry. Let me think about this again.
>> Take your time.
>> Let's say no.
>> And I'm not saying that the guidelines was based on the profit. I I don't know what the jud the judge had all these facts and the judge gets to decide what numbers to use. But, you know, but there's an argument to be made that the, you know, >> 72 months.
>> 72 months.
>> 72 months. Yeah. I I kept I was thinking 1.7 72 months. 72 months.
>> I That's six years in prison.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. And you feel that's just also >> Yeah, I think that would be like when I said 10 years, I was thinking that's high. Okay.
>> But I I think I think Yeah, I think if this guy's like category six or seven or five, six or seven, I think that's reasonable. That seems fair.
>> Okay.
>> Because you get to a point where it's like, man, listen, like >> you just can't keep doing this. Okay.
Like, >> so your guess is 72 months.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and uh is that your final answer?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Do you feel that I moved you from the 120 months to the 72 months or you came about that decision by your own free will?
>> No, I think I had made a mistake. Uh I had was focused on even even if right now it's 120. I think I made that on my own. Yeah, >> the correct answer.
>> Yeah. 96 months in prison.
>> Damn.
Damn.
>> What's 80% of a 96?
>> Yeah. Why do you keep saying 80%? 75% >> 120.
>> Sorry.
>> Exactly. 120.
>> What's 75% of 80 of 96?
>> Oh. Oh. Oh, sorry.
>> 75% of the wrong way. 96 times 75. What' you guess, Matt?
>> Uh, 72 months.
>> 75% of 96 is 72.
0. Oh, you see me another couple weeks.
>> I know. 0 >> 0. I'm good.
>> Oh, >> I hit it on the head.
>> Wow. You got 75%. All right. Take take your point.
>> You're doing good this episode. You know Bruce Springsteen?
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's a Bruce Springsteen wrote a song. He recorded it, but it was never a hit for him, but it was a hit for someone else. From small things, Big Things Come. It's one of my favorite songs.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Who is it? Who is it? How does it go? um from small things mama big things one day come I think it was recorded by Dave Edmonds as a hit other people as well and then when Bruce Springsteen released one of his like box sets with like unrecorded songs it was on there but I think about that a lot from small things big things come kind of like the butterfly effect >> where um and this is a story about that because sometimes in law enforcement you stumble upon situations that are clearly just the tip of the iceberg for something much bigger happens all the time >> you know uh what was his name oh gosh uh We had him on. He was a detective. It was It was a good interview. It should have gotten more views. It really was a good interview. We Theo Vaughn had him on.
>> Um Oh, yeah.
>> And he had said something a lieutenant of his had said.
He said, um, >> "Focus on the misdemeanors and the focus on the misdemeanors and the felonies will come."
>> Yeah.
>> He's like, "So, you pull over a guy for a broken tail light." He's like, "And then you you get up to the car and now there's like a hooker in the trunk."
>> Yeah. You find out there's a dead body.
Yeah. He's like, "You focus on He's like because that's the thing about people that he's like like real criminals."
He's like, "They're >> very seldom are they savvy enough to take care of all the little things that will get them. It's the little things that get them caught, right? You don't get caught because you're driving because there's two bodies in the trunk.
You get caught because you're driving with two bodies in the trunk and a broken tail light." Yeah. you know, or you're speeding >> or you're, you know, it's like there's the the front, you know, it's stupid.
It's like, >> you were fine. Why were you speeding, you know, with with 300 lb of >> I know >> H in the like what what do you like, but that's how the criminals their their minds work. They don't >> if they get smart, we got to work a lot harder.
>> That's why I that's why I always say like I'm not an idiot. I was never driving around with a broken tail and a body in the trunk. Like you pull me over, I got I got my driver's license. I got full coverage insurance. The car's in my name. I got smile.
>> Yeah, you're not. Nothing's going to look out of place, >> right? Well, we have John Nelson. John Jim Nelson, 40-year-old in Onarga, Illinois. Never heard of Onarga. I'm from Illinois.
>> There's a lot of Illinois outside of Chicago, evidently. Um, the cops had a he was one of these guys who when the lights go on with a speeding ticket, he's able to successfully evade the cops, >> but they get his license plates and so they know it's they know it's Jim and so there's a warrant for Jim's arrest. And so the next time they come upon Jim, they successfully pull him over and they ask Jim to get out of the car. Okay.
>> You know that Jess has outrun the cops twice.
>> Yeah.
>> Did you?
>> I I knew that Jess was a real successful outlaw. Yeah.
>> And now you talk to her. I like She tells me these stories and I'm always like, "What were you?"
So, um, they pull Jim over, tell him to get out of the car, and Jim's, we've seen these videos on, uh, on on TikTok or whatever, he grabs onto the steering wheel and says, "I ain't getting out of this car."
>> God, and that always ends really well.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You sometimes, yeah, a lot of times the cop soldiers be like, "Well, okay."
>> So, the officers reach in and start like trying to pull Jim out of the car. As they're doing that, he reaches into the back seat and pulls out a cylindrical metal object and tells the police that it's a bomb. I got a bomb. I got a bomb.
I got a bomb. The cops back off a few steps, right? They're not looking to get blown up. And Jim gets out of his car holding the bomb like an NFL running back and begins sprinting down the street away from the cops with the pipe bomb under his arm like a football. Um, look at >> drugs.
>> I don't know. Uh, >> seemed like somebody who's on >> the cops keep a safe distance and chase Jim to a house where they learn that his mother lived, right? So, he runs to mom's house. For 8 hours, Jim barricades himself inside his mom's place while the police attempt to get him to surrender.
No dice. Jim ain't going nowhere. He's got sanctuary in mom's house with his bomb. So, the police breach the door and send in the K-9 biting dogs. Um, they search the house and find Jim hiding in the attic, cradling his pipe bomb. The police safely arrest Jim and no one was hurt. Thank heavens, Mad Cox. The explosive squad determined that it was in fact a very, very much live bomb.
>> Oh, wow.
>> Yeah. And that everyone involved with the events of that day are just lucky to be alive. Now, possession of an unregistered bomb is a federal crime.
>> Okay. So, the police hand off the case to the FBI. ATF may have been invi involved. I don't recall that. Um, and the FBI uh takes it across the finish line with federal charges of uh having a you know unauthorized explosive device to which Jim pleads guilty. The big unknown that we never really learned is what was Jim up to? Was he some violent revolutionary or just a redneck looking to blow up a stump? We never found out.
Okay. Um there was no additional finding of facts in the court records about what Jim was up to. Uh his position was that he was addicted to drugs. Matt Cox, you called it early.
>> Yeah.
>> See if you And he made the bomb to scare off the coyotes that were menacing his employer's goats. He was a goat herder and there were coyotes bugging his goats. And so he makes a pipe. This is what he says to the courts. Seems like a bad plan to me. Um but I live in the Florida suburbs where both bombs and goats are not kind of part of my HOA's vision of my community.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, um good news is while he was in uh federal prison or whatever the Metropolitan Correctional Center, wherever he was, um awaiting his sentencing, he got involved with the sober living program. Okay. To get himself uh straight. And uh and I hope that um Jim gets his head straight and uh and continues to live a a productive life because I think he could probably still be quite a good goat herder. And uh but the question is how long is it going to take for him to get that opportunity again? How much time is he going to do in prison for the series of events and the charges of having a unregistered bomb?
I'm going to say I think that there's probably probably a mandatory minimum of like five years, but I'm going to say 48 months because I'm still I'll be within that, you know.
>> So, you're playing it tactically instead of actually guessing what you think the sentence will be.
>> Yeah. I think it's probably 5 years, but it's let's say 48 months.
>> 48 months.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. And that's your guess. You mean you think it's you think it's 5 years, but you're saying 48 months for the for the sake of the game?
>> Yeah. 48 months.
>> Okay. Well, either way, you got it because the correct answer is 5 years in >> Oh, it must have been a mandatory minimum. Yeah. Yeah. Must have been.
>> Yeah.
>> U so I have a a when I was 17 or 18, I had a friend I I you know hesitate to say friend. His name was David. Uh I can't even remember his last name. I used to know his last name. And he was he was about 16 or 17. I was probably 16 or 17. I had a car. He didn't. Uh, I worked out with his uncle and he was a troubled kid like like not to me, you know what I'm saying? Like he never caused me any problems. Like we had hung out several times and worked out together and >> uh but and and I didn't realize like he was a a a problem. Apparently he he'd burglarized a house one time like broken in somebody's window and stolen some stuff. like I didn't know any thing about I'd learned this later but one day I got a phone call from a mutual friend Trent Culta who called me and said hey you know David I wish I could remember his last name anyway he he goes yeah he goes you know he's dead he died and I go what he said yeah bro he died what happened he was making a pipe bomb >> oh my >> blew off his hands >> oh my god >> uh like they said literally like it like out of what it hit like four you know of course your um your arteries both like he they said he bled to death. He was they said he bled to death within within a minute he's dead. But he >> How old was he?
>> They but when they found him he literally was like holding his hand crawled up in a ball and it hit like you know we're talking about it it hurt the artery in his leg and it's just every >> How old was he?
>> He was I want to say he was I want to say he was 16.
>> God poor 17 and I was like maybe a year older than him.
>> Yeah. It was just a horrible horrible situation cuz I Yeah. It's where it was just something that was like so stupid.
Like he's not trying to hurt anybody.
He's just a silly kid. The kids are stupid. They're doing fun stuff. Not probably. I'm sure if you told him, >> "Is there any way this could go?" It would have been like, "Absolutely." He would have been like, "No, it's fun."
You know, you don't I'm not even going to light it with a match yet.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You don't you don't even realize how how dangerous things are until it's too late.
>> Terrible story. There's a perception in the public that prison, especially federal prison where people like you go.
Um, that it becomes a bit of a kind of crime grad school.
>> That was a dig.
>> Where people like you went I like people like you used to be >> where we should be keeping you.
>> No, no, no. I'm so thrilled you're out, Matt Cox. I I'm what I'm saying is that that you spent I mean this is terrible.
You spent 13 years of your life in prison and you're my friend and I hate to think about that. I hate to think about you suffering. I hate to think about you not being out there being Matt Cox. But there's a perception that when people who got involved in crimes like you got involved in crime serve a bunch of time in prison, that prison actually serves as bit of a a crime grad school for them and that prisoners sit around coming up with schemes and scams on how they could get away with it once they get out. Is that a thing or is that just a misconception?
>> So true.
>> Really? So a some of the best hours I had was uh Zach and I sitting around talking about different scams and coming up with different scams and what if you did this and and then you the other thing is like you know my biggest problem was like I can get a million dollars in a bank account. That's not hard.
>> Yeah.
>> It was getting the money out and Zach's issue was like how do you get a like how do I I have to find somebody with a million dollars in a bank account to get the money out. He had tons of ways of getting the money out. So we had two different problems. So once so we met it was like wow like if id known you on the street.
>> Yeah.
>> Like the slowest part of my scam was going into the bank getting can I have $5,000? Can I have $7,000? Can I have $5,000? Can I like it was just you know take going to ATMs draining them. It's like >> interesting. It took forever. Getting the money in the bank was the easiest part.
>> So prison is sort of like a crime grad school.
>> Yeah. I used to say I went in with a GED and I came out with a master's degree.
>> That's so funny. So we got 32-year-old Mike Pringle in Charlotte, North Carolina. He was a planner. He was a planner. He wanted to rob a bank, but he knew that bank robbers almost always get caught and go to prison for a long time, disproportionate amount of time to the amount of money that they get. So, he had a brainstorm. Mike knew a 16-year-old boy that we're going to call Jamal. And he tells the boy that he has a foolproof plan to make that make them both wealthy beyond their wildest dreams. You see, Mike knew that there is no federal system of juvenile criminal justice. And so maybe the trick to getting away with crimes would be to use teenagers and minors to help you get away with it because they're like, >> brilliant. It's foolproof, right? So Mike drives Jamal to a Wells Fargo bank in Pineville, North Carolina. He gives the teen a loaded pistol and sends him inside and sends him inside the bank to rob it while Mike waits in the car.
>> What could go wrong, >> right? This teenager's he can't he can't touch him. So, for his part, Jamal does as he's told. He goes inside the bank.
He walks up to the teller. He raises the weapon and says, "Put $20,000 in the bag right now." He hadn't even been through puberty yet at age 16 in this story. The teller puts $18,000 into the bank. Uh, thinking that Jamal may not be really good at math. And Jamal runs out of the bank to Mike waiting in the getaway car.
He hops in the car and the two drive away. It worked and boom, the die pack goes off.
>> They got the money. It didn't take long though before a description of Mike's car was all over the police radios in Pineville. And the cops pull over Mike and Jamal.
While they're making their getaway, the police pull them out of the car and they look into the back seat and what do they see in the back seat? $18,000 just spilled out everywhere over the back seat. Like like they're throwing the money over their shoulders.
>> They're making it rain in the car.
>> Yeah. This is the probable cause the police need to serve to search the vehicle. recovering the loaded Glock pistol in the driver's side door because where Mike was sitting. Both Jamal and Mike were placed under arrest.
Mike is handed off to the FBI for federal investigation and prosecution.
There's no kids court in the federal system. So Jamal was actually charged by the state for the robbery in the local juvenile system. And uh I don't know what ever happened to him and uh because the juvenile records aren't public.
Well, let's talk about Mike. Okay. He pleads guilty to aiding and abetting the bank robbery, right? That was the crime.
Aiding and abetting a bank robbery.
>> Weird.
>> Um, >> you think it would be conspiracy to commit bank, you know, or a bank robbery or something. Same.
>> I think it's probably the same thing. If for sentencing guidelines purposes, it's the same thing. Um, like I said, I don't know what happened to Jamal. I think he probably missed the junior prom. Uh, don't know. Um, want to hear from you, Mike. A planner much like you. How much time you gonna give him in prison? And you said he he already has a he already has like a wrap sheet, right? He's already been in prison, right?
>> I I don't know. I don't know his I don't know his criminal history, unfortunately. I know that's very pertinent to the situation, but we are talking about a bank robbery that he facilitated with a live gun and recruiting a teenager into it. I think this would have played out the same way either way for him.
>> Do you think involving like the kid to do it makes it worse? V maybe maybe an enhancement for vulnerable victim but I think he hits the mandatory minimum of having a gun and the whole thing of 10 years anyway so I think he's probably at 10 years >> but again he's only at aiding in a betting like he's not I'm just being devil's advocate here >> I know I still think it's 10 years >> so >> I think you go into to me I feel like you go into a bank with a gun that's 10 years might be five years honestly there's like a kind of a mandatory you know >> the gun was brandished and threatened but not fired or used >> oh so maybe that's maybe if it's fired heard it's 10 years. But anyway, I'm still going to say 10 years cuz um and him like he might as well go on in the bank. Like I love the guys in the in the getaway car. I don't care. You might as well go. I love that. Oh, no.
No. I I you're you guys FBI agent. I know where there's uh I I I know these guys that have been robbing the banks.
All these banks. Well, how do you know?
Oh, I was driving the getaway car. Like, okay, you you're you're robbing the banks. You might as well go in. So, you're saying there was a flaw in his plan? I >> Yeah. 120 months. I think that's reasonable.
>> Okay. Is that your final answer?
>> Yeah. You You have me feeling um uneasy about it, but I'm still I'm going to stick with >> I don't want to make you feel uneasy, buddy. I want you to be happy with your answer.
>> I l I No, but um Okay. Yeah. So, I I doubt your sincerity. Uh 120.
>> So mean. Uh 120 months, 10 years in prison. The correct answer is seven years in federal prison.
>> Oh, man. Come on.
>> He's just a getaway driver, man.
Okay.
>> What is the most successful story we've ever done together on social media as far as number of views? We've talked about this a couple times.
>> Oh, the prison. Oh, no. Prison. The plain freakout story was I think it was plain freakout. It was 71 million. What was it about? 71 mill. It was 71 million. It's on TikTok. And the vi and the podcast video itself.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Is over 500.
>> Is that what you meant?
>> Yeah. People like our airplane stories.
>> I have a feeling this is going to be a good one.
>> I'm just sitting here.
>> I got an airplane story for you, Matt Cox.
>> Was that 71 million one? Was it about the kid or was it about just the person freaking out?
>> It's probably remember the kid one.
>> The kid climbing in.
>> Yeah. He climbed in and he climbed well.
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Huh.
>> Yeah. People were like, "You would he would have died." And turns out that there's like one or two% of population.
That's the That's the airplane story that uh did so well, >> I think. Cuz I remember I remember when it was doing very well, I just kind of, you know, once they get to like said 15 or 20 and then they'll they'll kind of taper off. I kind of feel like they stopped gaining momentum, but apparently >> it continued. It's continued to gain like it had another rebirth or something. Ended up at 71 million.
>> 71 million views on TikTok of you and I telling the story.
>> Is that the one?
>> I'm checking.
>> I'm just sitting here. I'm not telling this right.
>> I'm just wondering. Yeah. Well, that's a good point that you're just sitting there and I'm the one telling the story cuz 71 million views must generate a lot of income for us.
>> I mean, I Yeah, it's not my department.
>> I keep running to the mailbox.
What? Where's US?
>> What is the US?
>> My goodness. Slavery was outlawed.
>> All right, I have an airplane story for you. Maybe we can uh maybe we can >> Why is it taking so long for Colobby to find this?
>> Cuz it's not I don't know if it's on our page.
>> It's on the It's on our Tik Tok. Look, so if you go to Tik Tok, right? It's the very first one. You guys pinned it.
>> You pinned it right there. First one. D Airplane freakout 71.6 million.
>> That is That is 87 MB. That's the uh >> the size of it.
>> That's the size of >> the megabytes, not the views. You dope.
>> What?
>> Well, I didn't know this out, right? I mean, I I've never seen >> I've never seen I've never seen it.
>> You told me we were in Fort Lauderdale this week. You told me we had 75 million. I'm like, the population of the US is 325 million. I >> Yeah. MB.
>> Bottom line, though, is our airplane stories tend to do very well. That's kind of where I was going with this segue.
>> Hey, so tell me about this. Tell me about the plane story.
>> Okay, cool. So, we got a woman named Tiffany. Good-looking lady. Wouldn't matter if she wasn't good-looking. No one deserves to uh um be harassed, but she happened to be a good-look lady.
>> And so she brought it on herself. I hear what you're saying.
>> No, no, no, no, no. She's flying on Spirit Airlines from Los Angeles to Philadelphia and she's seated in the middle seat in row 27.
Okay. She sits down next to a stranger who's sitting in the window seat. She later learns that he is 41-year-old Vernon Baker from Lynden, New Jersey.
>> Can I guess the sentencing? I'm going to guess zero time served.
>> Where's this coming from?
>> Well, I mean, she's an attractive woman on an airplane. This guy's going to do something creepy and he's going to get like something like a day. That's That's my assumption. We'll see. All right.
Well, well, thank heavens you're not the contestant, but thank you for weighing in.
>> So, whoever's assigned the aisle seat never showed up. So, it's just Tiffany and Vernon sitting next to each other. I don't know why she didn't move over, >> but she she doesn't. During takeoff, Vernon is trying to chat up Tiffany.
Okay. Asking her her name, where she's from. Tiffany's not into it. Okay. At first, she begins answering politely, but then she puts in her earbuds, the kind of the international signal of leave me alone, >> right?
>> And starts watching TV shows on her iPad.
>> Vernon taps her on the shoulder and uh and asks her if she has a boyfriend.
Tiffany said that she was in a relationship and Vernon responded, "That doesn't matter."
Tiffany stays creep >> Tiffany stays laser focused on her screen and Vernon keeps talking to her in her earbud ear. She's trying to ignore him. The flight attendant gives her a bag of pretzels, taps her on the shoulder, says, "Can I have a pretzel?"
And so she gives him a pretzel just wanting this to stop. Then uh Vernon taps her on the shoulder again later in the flight and he uh has his hand down his pants and he's stroking himself.
>> Geez.
>> And he says to her, "Do you know how hard you're making me?"
>> Wow.
>> Tiffany is dumbruck and she tells Vernon that she's not into guys.
Wrong answer. He starts taking care of himself even more vigorously and says, "That turns me on. I want you even more.
Let's go into the bathroom together.
Tiffany decides. She declines this invitation.
>> They're not going to believe this, Vern.
>> Yeah. And she tells Vernon that she's uh Yeah. Okay. She declines this invitation. Vernon then, I'm going to be polite about this phrasing. Whips it out.
>> Wow.
>> To show her his state of arousal.
He grabs her wrist and forces her arm to touch him down there. With his other hand, he begins cupping her chest.
>> What is What the >> He reaches down, unbuckles her seat belt, and starts trying to untie her yoga pants. Not good. Not funny.
Tiffany breaks away, runs to the back of the plane, hysterically, telling the flight attendants what happened. They let Tiffany sit in the back with them for the duration of the flight. The pilot calls ahead to the FBI. Why?
Because the FBI is in charge of crime uh investigating any crime aboard an aircraft. Automatic FBI jurisdiction.
The plane lands in Philadelphia. Vernon is taken off the plane by the FBI agents and brought to a room in an interview room. He's mirandized. Vernon, you have the right to remain silent.
They ask him what happened. Vernon says that he made a his words smooth pass during the flight to Tiffany who was giving me a vibe. He said and he admitted that he grabbed her breast but he said it wasn't forceful. When the agent said, "Why did you think this was appropriate?"
Vernon said, this is from the court transcripts. That's how black folks make moves.
And his words, not mine. Vernon pleads guilty to abusive sexual contact on an aircraft.
How much time, Colby and Matt are we going to give Vernon for this hellacious crime?
>> I mean that that is how you make moves in prison maybe. I mean what you know like you you know but uh you know we've had this discussion where it's like cruise ships and airplanes you know it makes it very difficult to prosecute people um which clearly >> old Vern knew >> he sort of confessed that >> he did some research >> he well he kind of also admitted to the conduct right And I don't know that there were a whole lot of eyewitnesses.
>> You know, the flight attendants can describe how terrified she was. She ran into he didn't deny it. It's not like he said, "I mean, he he this is how he makes moves. He she was giving him a vibe. Um he made a smooth pass in his words.
How much crime how much time you going to give this smooth passer?"
>> I mean, because he should obviously get a lot more time, but I'd say 24 months.
>> 24 months. Two years in prison.
>> Kobe said zero. Kobe's ready to give this guy the key to the city.
>> Kobe has a univers and a universal pass on Spirit Airlines. Great airlines, by the way.
>> You know, they have like the best service record.
>> You know, they're the government's getting ready to buy them.
>> I know. I know.
>> But still, >> what's that going to do?
>> Well, the Spirit Airlines is on the ver is either declared bankruptcy is about to declare bankruptcy. And so, the Trump administration and the DoD is going to take an ownership stake in Spirit Airlines. this is the proposal and use it as the designated airlines to move service members from base to base.
Basically, like my son when he joins the Air Force, if he has to be up in Maryland to report for duty after this school to go to that school, Spirit Airlines would be the designated carrier. That's the That's theory. I don't think it's a terrible idea in >> I would hate to I hate to see an airline go under.
>> I don't like the nationalization of private companies. I'm just sort of against that intuitively, but but the idea of putting Spirit Airlines all the way out of business as a >> Yeah. the flying greyhound bus that it is.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyway, so how much time we gonna give old smooth move smooth past Vernon Baker?
>> And honestly, I don't want the people that fly Spirit on my Delta flight.
>> Can we keep them?
>> Yeah, I'm just joking. I fly I fly Spirit all the time.
>> They have a lot of routes where they're the only one way there, one way back.
Especially Vegas.
>> And you know what? I'll drive before I do that.
>> I don't want >> I'm not sitting next to Vernon.
>> I don't want to get diddled by Vernon.
Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Um, let's say 24 month 18 months. 18 months. I'm going to go with 18 months.
>> 18 months. Year and a half. I mean, you heard about him untying her yoga pants.
>> I understand. But he's still on a plane.
We've had this discussion.
>> Okay.
>> So, I feel like it's, you know, Yeah. Is it assault?
>> Toby, have you looked it up already?
>> No. I'm assuming some type of probational thing. Zero.
>> 18 months. How much?
>> 18 months is your guess. The correct answer is 25 months in prison. I was I either way I nailed it. But I was right at 24 months and he's he moved he was trying to move me one way or the other.
>> You're filled with conspiracy theories.
You and your fake moonlanding friends.
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Promo code cox. Upgrade your sleep with ghost bed, the makers of the coolest bed in the world. Some exclusions apply. See site for details. What do we know about hitmen? When you hire a hitman, what are some of the pitfalls in that?
>> A lot of times they're FBI agents.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I was an undercover FBI agent uh and did lots of undercover assignments, but because of my look, I was always like Tom the banker guy or Tom the investor guy or or uh you know, sometimes I kind of went beyond my comfort zone and and try to become something else. But we had a guy in Chicago who was the hitman. He was an undercover FBI agent. He'd been a hitman for like a dozen cases, certified undercover, and he sort of had the beats down, which is funny because he didn't look like a thug. He looked like a college professor, but he was just really good at playing a hitman.
So, um, so yeah, your instincts are right, though. If you hire a hitman, there's a decent chance that it's an undercover cop or an FBI agent or an informant. So, let's tell the story.
Let's go to Sacramento today. To uh Shaminder Sandoo is his name.
>> No idea what that is.
>> I believe it's of Indian ethnicity, but that doesn't matter because I don't see race. He was looking for a hitman to settle some scores with his enemies. And so one of his buddies said, "I know a guy who's a flesh and blood hitman." And so they all meet at a Starbucks in Mantea, California to discuss the job.
The client, Shaminder, and his buddies agreed, "We're going to do a test run, and our first target is this guy that we all hate. We don't like this guy." So they paid the hitman $6,000 to rough up their this guy that they didn't like.
>> Okay, >> don't kill him. Just rough him up.
And sure enough, what happens? Matt Cox, a couple days later, the hitman comes back with a photo on his phone of their mutual enemy all battered and bruised and covered in dirt. This was like a gift from heaven, right? All they needed to do was pay this hitman and their enemies would be vanquished. Can you imagine? It's like a >> Who has enemies that need to be vanquished? Like who who these guys mob?
No. No. They're just part of a Indian community in California.
>> That's how they run it. That's how they do it in India.
>> They uh there's some grudges out there, man. There's some grudges. Um >> I mean, this is the He's got a He's Oh, he thinks he's big shot. He's got a 7-Eleven. It >> And >> I'm not stereotyping, but it it might involve retail. It might involve restaurants. It might involved um blood feuds going back to generate some level of disrespect. I don't know. I don't know what the >> from the old country.
>> Could be. Could be. I think you're um you're painting with a very broad brush and uh I love Indians. I like naan bread. Um Shaminder agrees. So now this hitman has proven his worth, right? So hitman So Shinder agrees to pay the hitman to kill a different enemy, >> but they wanted this hitman to handle the murder, dismember the victim, and transport his body parts in uh in different suitcases to Mexico for disposal.
This is very elaborate. It's It's This seems like an e even if this was real.
That's a sure spoiler alert, man. You're sure way to get get caught. Yeah. What are you doing? Like, let me kill this guy.
>> This hitman is all about customer service, though.
>> Okay. Like he's got his Google ratings were five stars across the board.
>> That would be very expensive. I'd want as a hitman. I need I need a lot of money.
>> This is the team of Hitman. He's willing to do this job for $10,000.
He's he's willing to do it for 10 grand.
You can imagine Shinder's surprise after they pay the hitman um when the FBI comes to arrest him a week later because are you sitting down, Mad Cox? The hitman was actually a paid FBI informant who's recording the conversations.
>> You can't trust anybody.
>> Can't trust anybody.
>> And you know that guy that they roughed up earlier for the six gram? Turns out that was just FBI like makeup and uh and kind of special effects that they did at the FBI photo lab. The dude wasn't even punched in the nose at all.
>> They don't even They just go in and say, "Look, did you know a guy named Oh, yeah.
>> Mhm.
>> We're enemies. Can we can you lay on the ground? Let us pour some ketchup on you.
>> Take a couple photos so we can get this guy."
>> I had a case like that in Chicago. I told the story once a long time ago. Um, how much time you gonna give Shaminder for this uh, Murder for Hire?
>> You know what bothers me is a lot of times these guys get no time. They get very little time. Typically they get >> I mean I'd say typically they get a good chunk of time, but I'm going to say 10 years.
>> He wanted the guy dismembered.
>> I know that's what I'm saying brought to Mexico. It's pretty specific order.
>> You know, I was locked up with a guy that got like 25 years >> on a murder for hire. Mhm.
>> with >> with an FBI undercover.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And by the way, it was the person that they were going to kill was the prosecutor.
>> And he was also very specific. He wanted her >> boobies cut off and like mailed to somebody. Oh, it was horrific. It was horrific.
>> That's a thing. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And so uh uh so yeah, he he got like 25 years. He was getting he was he was in trouble anyway for other things like but he would have never got 25. He's sort of like a running he was a partner in like a Ponzi scheme.
>> Yeah, I think going after an officer of the court is probably a bigger deal. So what about Shinder though? This is just a guy with enemies.
>> I know he's just such a >> Maybe the enemies were asking for it.
Matt Cox still I I think you you kind of get a discount for being just kind of a a a a >> How deep of a discount? I like I think significant I'm say I'm I'm gonna say 10 years >> 10 years in prison.
>> Yeah.
>> For the for paying to rough someone up and then paying to kill and dismember someone else.
>> Yeah. He was he was absolutely sure about it.
>> I mean like it's not like he wasn't it's not like it's you know sometimes just like hey you're having a conversation and but this guy clearly thought this was possible. He paid he already paid to have one guy done roughed up. This is his second time. Now we're positive. I'm giving you the money for sure. He knew what was happening. Yeah, >> but I also am always >> shocked that they don't get as much time as I really kind of think. So I'd say 10 years.
>> Okay. 10 years. Final answer.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Correct answer. 7 and a half years. So 90 months. So your guess was 120 months. What he got was 90 months.
90 times 1.25 >> is 112.
>> Yeah. Little sh.
>> Oh, here's an interesting little angle on this case. one of his buddies, the buddy who actually made the introduction, um, got nine years for setting the whole thing up for kind of making the introduction to the Hitman.
>> So, he must have >> Yeah. I don't know why Shimer got a better deal than the Cuz Shinder's the client. Yeah.
>> But the dude who's like, I got a hitman and goes out and kind of like brings the hitman in for him.
>> He was already in trouble for something else.
>> Shimer, >> no, the first guy >> maybe, but he got nine years. He got more time.
>> I understand got he may have been facing 20. He ended up with nine because he he said >> Oh, I don't No, no, no. I I don't think >> You don't think there was another case?
>> Ninder Boari, the other guy. I don't My impression is that he thought this was a real hitman also.
>> Oh, >> right. I didn't want to confuse weird.
Maybe he had a criminal history then.
>> Yes, it had to be something like that.
Okay, so we're on story 12 now. Colobby, why don't we update because I think Matt Matt's doing real good. So, what's his what's his score?
>> Seven of 11.
>> Really? I've got seven of them.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, this is good. Great. So, this one's a freebie. You won either way.
>> That which is how it should be.
>> When you were in prison, um, was there like a Aryan Brotherhood prison gang and like like hardcore white power people who gathered together like there is in like those TV shows about prison?
>> No, it wasn't really that kind of prison. There were guys that were um so don't they don't do that. What they do is they they call them Odinists.
>> Odin like like the Viking god.
>> Yeah, of course. Absolutely. Thor, the hammer, everything. Actually, a lot of them would wear like a little a little hammer around their neck. Yeah. And so they're they're and it's a religion. Odinism is religion. So they also get to do what's called the sweat lodge.
>> So they get >> in prison.
>> In prison.
>> Well, they also they they get same thing with where they it's kind of like the Indian pyote.
>> Yeah. And they get they I think they get cuz they're just making this up on as they go along. They they're getting they were >> super religious before.
>> Yeah. They're able to get uh some it's supposed to be like nicotine-free tobacco and they're so they kind of they're able to smoke tobacco and >> but they're like white power guys.
>> Yeah. But really it's kind of a a a subtle because there's no black guys in the group. There's like there'll be like a dozen of them and they all get together and they get to have a special meal and they get so they get a lot of religious stuff.
>> So yeah, it's kind of that it's not really like a abs or aryan brotherhood.
>> Okay.
>> You think that's more like a state prison penitentiary type >> state prison? I also think it's penitentiary. I was worst I was at was a medium.
>> But they they're the medium and they're in the low.
>> Yeah. Okay. So, there's a fellow by the name of Kyle Christopher Benton of Seattle. He gets tossed out of the US Army uh for threatening to kill his wife. Um 29 years old. And so life's not going great for Kyle, but he reinvents himself as a white supremacist online influencer under the scream na screen name liftwaffle.
>> It's the world's so weird.
>> It's a weird world. Lots of corners of this internet. So Kyle operates multiple social media accounts where he posts violent extremist content, neo-Nazi propaganda, anti-semitic materials, and he begins developing a massive following. you know a thing or two about massive followings, Matt Cox, because you're really famous. Um, and so Kyle's sort of like a white power Matt Cox in many ways.
>> Thanks. Put that out there. Thank you for that.
>> As you know, internet fame can be an intoxicating drug. And Kyle begins organizing rallies, hate rallies in Oregon, Washington, and Idaho that were were very well attended. Okay. So, he's not limiting his scope. He's he's got this lust for um to be the center. So the next step in his evolution as a white power leader is to >> buy some land >> was to leverage his own military training to lead workshops >> for aspiring neo-Nazis including firearms training with weapons from Kyle's own arsenal. Okay.
>> He's also a motivational speaker egging on his students to engage in ethnically motivated violence.
>> Get out.
>> I fig that's >> you probably getting closer and closer to the line. you're skating the line before this, >> right? But again, none of this is illegal yet, right? Um but it creates a vexing problem for the domestic terrorism agents on the FBI who have a keen understanding that Kyle needs to be stopped before bloodshed happens. Right.
Right. So >> yeah, he's not doing everything is still kind of first amendment protected, but >> they send him a letter like with the old ladies, >> right? A money mule letter and kindly knock it off. Um, the mechanism they used to stop Kyle in his tracks were the firearms he was using for training his followers. You see, he was teaching his students with a fully automatic machine gun. I'm not a machine gun guy.
>> It used to be a license.
>> Yeah. A device used called an autoseer.
>> I don't know what that is.
>> To my understanding, it makes a gun a fire like a machine gun. And uh it's, you know, a adaptation we're going to get in the comments. I'm not claiming to be a gun guy, okay? Okay. So, you can educate me, but don't come down on me.
>> I know they have like mag feeders. Yeah.
Where it it's a mag that magazine actually pushes the rounds into the gun.
>> His training also involved two unregistered rifles with barrel lengths under 16 in, which I guess is significant, >> right?
>> Okay. Uh, possession of these weapons with these specifications are violations of federal law that I'm sure of. And they were enough for the FBI to obtain a search warrant for Kyle's house in Snowomish, Washington. And these weapons were seized by the FBI agents. Okay, it's following. So the FBI charges, they arrest CH Kyle and charge him with unlawful possession of a machine gun and possession of an unregistered firearm and he pleads guilty in court. Okay. Um while while at his sentencing, Kyle writes a letter to the judge disavowing his white supremacist views. Just kidding, judge. or or I've seen the light. I'm now way into black guys.
Whatever. I don't know what he said, but he he's no longer a white supremacist.
He says in his letter to the judge before his sentencing, and I hope it's true. I hope he I hope it's true. I hope he's comfortable living in a pluralistic uh USA like you and I are.
>> Nevertheless, the judge has a decision to make. The judge understands the again pretty simple firearms charges, but the context for these is all being presented to the judge about what this guy is all about.
>> How much time and no criminal history, but you know, he's thrown out of the army for threatening to kill his wife.
Not no bueno. He's 29 years old. How much time you going to give Kyle Benton?
So, you can't have a like there there is a mandatory minimum I think for firearm for for like machine guns, but I kind of feel like I don't know why I want to I feel like that applies to I always think of that as applying to people that aren't supposed to have them, right?
Like if I'm not supposed to have a a handgun, if I'm a felon and I have a handgun, >> these are almost regulatory crimes, right?
>> It's three years.
>> Mhm.
>> Because I have I'm a felon. It's three years. And then if you have Okay. Yeah.
But when we caught you, you also had drugs. So then it becomes five and then I think for like a machine gun it or defaced weapon or something it may be 10 or it may be so I could say I I I don't know. I've noticed >> unlawful possession of a machine gun and possession of an unregistered firearm. I believe you are thinking about felons in possession of he ain't a felon.
>> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's my experience is felon. But if you remove the felon, then now I'm like, I have no idea. Like, how much trouble can you get in for having a machine gun?
>> We're about to find out. What's your guess?
>> 60 months.
>> 60 months. Five years in prison for a simple pos for possession of of guns that you're not allowed to have.
>> I mean, maybe.
>> Does the judge consider the white power and the revolution and the go out and kill?
>> I wouldn't.
>> Really? You would just disregard that?
Like >> I disregard that. That's I I I feel like that's >> because it's all first amendment protected.
>> I do. I feel that's per So I'm not going to take that into consideration. I'm going to go with whatever the guidelines say.
>> So it's not it's not you don't think the judge should should the judge consider that.
>> I mean I I don't think so. I don't think he's I think that's your opinion and you don't I don't think you should you know.
Yeah. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. That's like the me taking into consideration that the guy's you know um you know oh well you know your honor you know he's a Muslim and he had you know you know Alah Akbar or something you written on in in on his walls or he was a member of a site that was talking about this. It's like okay well but that's not illegal. I mean personally I have an issue with it but >> yeah it's not like you roll I get it.
>> Yeah. So >> okay. So how much time?
I was saying five years, but you you already make me think that's wrong, but I'm gonna say 60 months.
>> Well, 60 months is five years.
>> Yeah, that's just doubling down. Thank you.
>> Thank you. All right. Final answer.
>> Yeah.
>> Correct answer is 24 months.
>> 24 months.
>> 24 months.
>> I wonder if that was a mandatory minimum was like two years for having a a you know um a machine gun cuz you're allowed to have a machine gun, but you have to have a license.
>> It's a whole thing.
>> You can be licensed. Like it's like cuz in Florida cuz you know Deoli Deoli the guy from Warogs the kid from Warog that wrote his memoir um he he had a I mean he had a concealed weapons permit which you needed one at that time in Florida to have it concealed as you don't now. But he also had to go I you had to be 21. He had to wait till he was 21 to get his machine gun license to actually have a machine gun. I still don't know if it was fully automatic though. I would think it would be it would be fully automatic. That means a machine gun, right? Yeah. So, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So, he actually got that license.
>> Uh so, I mean, I know you have to have a license. So, I guess 5 years was extreme. I'm still thinking about being a felon. Like, you're not supposed to have it. So, >> yeah, >> it's fine. Don't beat yourself up.
>> Final score?
>> 7 to 12.
>> Seven to 12. Can I shake your hand, sir?
>> Thank you. Have you I barely It's been It's been a long time since you've won this game.
>> Yeah, it is.
>> This might have been your best score ever, actually. He's close. All right. All right. That's all I got for you.
>> So, where can people find you?
>> I'm already like I forget the cameras are here.
>> I have I have that effect. Yeah. Like two dudes hanging out.
>> Yeah. I mean, people like because of where the camera is, people think I'm always like playing to the camera. I'm really just looking at Colby.
>> Yeah. Yeah. He's irresistible.
>> Wait till he gets a full head of hair, man. It's going to be It's a dream boat.
Um, where can people find me? You ask Colobe. You can follow me on Instagram um at Simon Investigations. I'm also on Tik Tok and YouTube and Facebook and LinkedIn for that matter if you want to connect with me there. If any of you are part of a group or organization or club or have an employer that brings in outside speakers, I would be so honored if you would connect me with the person that hires outside speakers because I'm on the speaking circuit now. I have a fantastic speech that's been knocking people's socks off on how to use FBI behavioral science techniques for business and personal success. And I would love to come visit you uh and talk to you about that. Any Matt Cox uh viewer who wants to get a who needs a private investigator, I work in all 50 states. I'll do free consultations on the phone and um I'll always make time for your referrals. So, thank you so much. Have a wonderful wonderful day and thank you Matt Cox for having me on.
>> All right. Hey you guys, I appreciate you watching. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button. hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this.
Also, we're going to leave all of Tom's links in the description box so you can click on there. You can go over and join his his uh Instagram and his Tik Tok. Uh we're also going to leave the the link to our website. So, you can go to our website and you can go to the be a guest page. You can fill out an application.
It's like five or six questions. It's super silly and and just easy. And then it's uh you can leave like a 3 to 5 minute video about a quick synopsis of your story and we'll get back with you as soon as possible. Thank you very much for watching. I really appreciate it.
See you. Be cool.
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