Grief without god - Lindsey Doolittle

Added: 2026-05-28

[00:00:00]Yeah, it's so good to see you. We're here with Lindsay Doolittle and I want to kick us off with a quick bio, but it's actually not a quick bio. You have a lot of stuff you've been up to. It's amazing how much you've been doing um in in terms of the last few years, but Lindsay is an art educator, a children's author, a visual artist, a documentary filmmaker, and an advocate focused on the secular community and on suicide loss. Uh through her website and the project called Above the Rugr, Lindsay supports suicide loss survivors. Uh her advocacy began after her late husband, Sergeant Brett Doolittle of the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department, died by suicide in 2015. She's also the artist behind Faces After Suicide, which is an exhibition of Blind Contour Drawings of Suicide Loss Survivors, which was created to support those who have lost someone to suicide and also to help deepen public awareness. She's also the author of a book. I'll have the link for this beneath this video if you want to go check it out on Amazon. It's called Goodn Night, Mr. Vincent Van Go. It's a children's book that offers a gentle way to talk with children about the topic of suicide. That book also became the basis for her 2021 award-winning short animation which she wrote and directed.

[00:01:09]She's also after all that uh amazing part of it um she's also a group facilitator for recovering from religion as well as one of their ambassadors.

[00:01:18]She's also the director and producer of a documentary about recovering from religion which offers hope, healing, and support to those struggling with issues of doubt and non-belief. Her website again is above the rug.com and her uh YouTube channel link is beneath this video. Please go like and subscribe to her channel there. Again, her book is there. So, lots of ways to connect with Lindsay. But uh Lindsay, that was a lot to start with, but could you please tell us more about yourself and some fun things?

[00:01:42]>> Okay, some uh fun things about me. Um I would say I love all things spooky.

[00:01:50]I really love horror movies. Uh, I love going to, uh, you know, there's Comic Con, but then there's CryptoCon, which is the horror movie side of things. And if you go into my guest bedroom, uh, there everything is horror memorabilia. I have all these autographs from all these villains. Uh, so yeah, that that's something that's something people don't quite know about me.

[00:02:18]>> H, interesting. Interesting. So, is um is that something you've always liked or is that something that you developed at a certain point? Like what what got you into that in the first place?

[00:02:29]>> Oh, okay. So, my dad would show us films uh like Conan the Barbarian, Aliens, Predators, uh Predator, and uh just growing up and I loved it. Total Recall, the original, you know. Uh, and uh my my heart just uh loves horror, all things spooky. Yeah, >> it's funny you say that. Um, I was just talk talking to someone the other day about how I'm I'm here in Atlanta and I had some friends, not through the channel, just friends in in real life who um were talking about how they had been uh been like standbys or whatever on the Walking Dead where they had to grow get all the the costumes on and all the um stuff to be in the background for some of those shots. And it was interesting, but they they loved it.

[00:03:17]They had posted all these very weird pictures, but um they had a great time doing it. But >> I've had too that were on The Walking Dead. So >> yeah, it's it's amazing. I'm not I'm not quite into horror, but I'm I guess I'm what am I? I'm more of a sci-fi person.

[00:03:31]I'm addicted to sci-fi, but um I I I I get it. I don't know why I don't know why. I think it's lef over from my time in Christianity, but uh horror movies just always sort of had that feeling of of the demonic oppression. I don't know if you if that makes sense. I know you're not from a more of a religious background, which we'll get into in a second, but um I just I always associated that that way, and I never could quite get comfortable with horror movies, but I uh I'm definitely a sci-fi person. But anyway, I digress. Well, we're so glad you're here, Lindsay. Um I know that we we really have a lot of different things to talk about, and some of them are connected, some of them are not as connected, but I would love just kind of to start where we typically start on this channel, which is how you grew up. your background in terms of recovering from religion is is very different and from what I understand it's very very simple and not as traumatic compared to the usual interviews I do where people are talking about being called sinners and worrying about going to hell and worrying about the end times all the time but u just just as a way of us getting to know you a little bit could you just tell us what was your childhood like and what what did you hear about anything religious or spiritual >> um let's see I was born in Oklahoma and uh my dad's military And then we went out to Levvenworth, Kansas. That's where I grew up. And uh there's churches on every corner. So, and there's also bars on every corner down there, too. Uh, and my family, um, yeah, my dad was, uh, made to go to church when he was younger, and he didn't want his daughters, uh, having to go, like he was forced to go. And then my mom, she was, uh, she never went to church, but she always wanted to go to church, but they ended up saying, "Let our daughters decide." I have two sisters and uh yeah that's that's how I grew up and a lot of my friends are religious uh a lot of them go to church um you know you're living in the Bible belt so military also >> so were they were they Christian or religious in any sense even though they didn't want to force you did they have any particular thoughts themselves either way about it >> um you know I promised them I was not going to talk about uh my family. Uh but I I will say, you know, it wasn't part of growing up for uh my family until I came out atheist to them. And that was painful >> and we're in a different spot now. Like it's a it's a good it's a it's good. I'm accepted. There's belonging. There's love. And um so it it's definitely in a different spot now. So but yeah, I wonder it was a part of our life and and then when I came out atheist then I was it was a different story. So >> yeah. Yeah, it definitely changes things for a lot of families. Well um in terms of uh just your personal journey uh again it's before we get into your current uh work and and so forth. What was it like growing up in terms of um like your your friends and your college days? What was your spirituality like then? Uh as you sort of moved past your family of origin and just all the world influences towards spirituality.

[00:06:54]>> Yeah. Um I believed in nothing. Uh I never believed in a a god. I I didn't know about the word atheist really, but that's what I was. And I didn't dare say that around like family and friends, you know, growing up that I was always closeted. And in college, I was closeted. Um, when I got married, uh, I never said a word. We didn't talk about that. Um, I found out that my my late husband was closeted as well. like we he was a district commissioner for the Boy Scouts and we went down to uh there was like a retreat or something down in New Mexico and right before we like we parked the car and he was getting out of the car and then he shut the door and he came back inside and he said, "Don't tell anyone I'm an atheist." And then he got out of the car and he walked out and I'm like, "Oh my god, you're atheist? So am I." I'm like, I had no idea my lay husband was even atheist. So, u and we didn't discuss anything further. Um uh yeah uh I I didn't really have that terminology of uh being an atheist until I this is further down if you want to talk about it in the conversation but going to a community with no religion out here in Kansas City called Oasis uh and meeting Dr. Daryl Ray the founder of Recovering from Religion that's when I was like hey yeah I am atheist.

[00:08:41]Hm. It's amazing. Now, what just curious with um with your late husband, the conversations that that didn't occur about religion, was was it the kind of thing where you felt like you would have been a ashamed to say you're an atheist or just a fear of social repercussions >> with my husband?

[00:09:00]>> Yeah. And and your friends, too, like like in in the sense of like were you thinking that they would write you off a little bit if we're to look down on you?

[00:09:07]>> Yeah. Yes. I I was scared to lose people. I wasn't gonna say that I don't believe in what you believe because then I was very concerned of losing people in my life. Uh, you know, I I do have really religious family members down in Texas and, you know, I was never going to say, you know, I don't believe in that. Or when they would pray, I would pray with them. you know, I uh I did the pretend praying. So, I I just wanted to fit in and I wanted to belong and uh yeah, I wouldn't dare say that back then.

[00:09:51]>> Yeah. Did you ever get um anybody that tried to really kind of wiggle their way into that conversation with you and kind of say, "Hey, have you ever accepted Christ as your savior?" Did you ever get that far in those conversations?

[00:10:03]>> Oh, yeah. I had all Yeah, I had those.

[00:10:05]Uh >> what what did you think when you were >> say say it again?

[00:10:11]>> Yes. I had those uncomfortable conversations and and I I would just be like, you know, not be wishy-washy and I never said, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I believe in that." I didn't lie. Um, I just was wishy-washy and a a form of lying, not being my true self, but uh, you know, I didn't want to rock the boat.

[00:10:36]>> Yeah, it is very hard to, uh, deal with people. I mean, I didn't deal with them earlier in life, but obviously I deal with that those conversations occasionally now. Um, now in terms of your your story, um, you know, we're a lot of what we're going to talk about today is regarding your more current events in your life, like in the last 5 to 10 years. But, um, could you tell us first how did you and your, uh, late husband meet?

[00:11:00]>> Uh, we met in high school. Um, he threw clay in a art class. So he was a s senior and I was a freshman and uh he was an art and yes uh that's that's how we that's how we met.

[00:11:17]>> I don't hear too many high school uh sweetheart stories. That's interesting.

[00:11:20]Um and what what was it like over the next few years as you all started your your marriage?

[00:11:27]Uh there's so much uh you know looking back in hindsight uh I was so happy to have somebody that wanted to be with me and I was somebody who felt um unwanted most of the time. So, you know, meeting somebody in high school, somebody older, uh, I was like, man, I'm this is awesome. And I really looked up to his artwork. And, um, he was kind of a rebel in school. Uh, he he went to the school of fine art in, um, uh, New York to become a cinematographer >> and he wrote me a letter. Uh this is a year before Colin and he said he was going to shoot up the school there. Um he said how much he hated school and hated certain people in his uh his college and he told me in very detailed way how he was going to shoot up the school. And uh at the time being, you know, 15, 16 years old, uh not hearing about school shootings, I just was thinking in my head, man, he really hates school out there. And he said he wanted to come back home to me. And I told him he needed to stay and follow his dreams.

[00:12:56]And he came back home and he became a cop. And we were all very surprised.

[00:13:03]>> That is quite the journey. What what was what what took him from such a an angry face to being willing to be part of the the the part of it that obviously was trying to protect people? What shifted for him?

[00:13:18]>> Um well, I didn't know this until after his death. Um his mother and I sat down and his stepdad and we had a conversation. Um, and they told me how when he was younger, there was a a stepdad I didn't even know about. He kept it a secret. The whole family kept it a secret that had molested my late husband. And I had no idea. And also, he wasn't believed.

[00:13:52]And he started drinking at an early age.

[00:13:57]uh in middle school started doing pot and didn't want to go to therapy but did want to go to Boy Scouts. That's that's what they put him in. And I'm not blaming them. I'm uh you know I smile when I say this. I have to smile. I I have to uh I it's there's so much information that I I found out. Uh but there was there was always something uh that was different about my late husband. But it when you're in it at a really young age, you know, you're not really seeing it in its full scope and then it gets progressively worse and you're just thinking he's going through something and it's getting worse and worse and where you get quieter and quieter. Um, and this is not everybody's story. We all have unique stories, but we have common threads. And, uh, I will say it by the end of his life, it was getting progressively worse and more scary in the home.

[00:15:10]It's it's interesting how one of the themes I'm seeing a lot in a lot of the stories that either are part of my life or someone else's life whether it's reg regarding usually deconstruction and decon conversion or something else but seems like so many aspects like really negative aspects of certain situations just get ignored um because they're it's too uncomfortable to talk about and it feels like I know well you you've got this this title above the rug UG where you know you really kind of brought it right out right out there and said it like that we're we got to stop sweeping this stuff under the rug and hiding.

[00:15:48]Usually again my on my channel it's more like people saying I'm dying inside because I'm afraid of hell or I'm never measuring up to God or the worm theology or purity culture makes me hate my body or whatever. But it's it's broader than that. There's so many venues and and scenarios in our lives where the people that we would arguably hope would be the safest people that we could go to and and be ourselves and be honest and say I'm really hurting, we sometimes can't.

[00:16:15]um you know in some ways I'd love to sort of have you unpack that from your perspective like how are how are you seeing the the ways that we are so silent and and so unwilling to face some of the grief that people are facing because it feels like it feels like there's just no reason that so many people are having to be forced to pretend and have a facade and really to just just go through so many things on their own. I feel like I mean it's it's even from a young age I always thought to myself you just never know what someone's going through like you never know that like that that person over there that maybe for example there's bullying in school and you just think of it as you man Amanda it's I'll go give them a little hug and or talk to them I'll be their friend and you know it's no big deal but like you don't know that that bullying might be the the the 20th or 50th or 100th thing that they've dealt with this week and they're much worse off mentally wise emotionally wise than you think. that's not like just a few kids being mean. There is so much more maybe in the home or something else going on. Um like how do you how do you approach this the reality that we do tend to pretend that whether it's pretend there's no issues in Christianity or pretend there's no grief or intense anxiety going on and how do you bring it out loud for yourself and for other people?

[00:17:28]Well, I can only talk from my experience and um it was after my late husband's suicide that I just ex like I couldn't hold it back. I had been holding back and not telling people what was going on in our home and behind closed doors and it was eating me up and um after his suicide it's just like my sister told me it's like you lost your filter and I couldn't stop. Uh and I wanted to share everything. I didn't want what had happened with him to happen with me because I felt like he had this spiderweb of lies that started to unravel at the end. But it's also it's a medical emergency. It's mental health.

[00:18:26]Um and I could feel myself as well like stuffing these secrets and um just felt like I was destroying myself inside. And that's when I mean it's just it it came like a wrecking ball and an avalanche of just I wanted to tell what was going on.

[00:18:51]I wanted to share that. I wanted other people to hold the horror for me. Um because it was just too much and overwhelming for me. Um I feel like you know the the the title of this uh podcast show you know grief without God. It's also grief and trauma without God. I I have complex post-traumatic stress and it has it consumes you. It's unwanted.

[00:19:22]It's intrusive and uh it's hard to manage daytoday.

[00:19:29]Uh but just exploding of I don't want this to bury me alive. Um yeah, it it it definitely it's it's helped and it's hurt and um but this is the way that I have uh my journey it goes. I'm not everybody's journey.

[00:19:53]There's some people that that said, you know, Brett killed himself. End of story. We will not talk about it again.

[00:20:01]That wasn't for me. That might have been for them, but that's not for me. and it has helped to get these things out, but it definitely there is there is a lot of hurt there too.

[00:20:12]>> Yeah. I mean it it I think it really just begs the question right away like what what kind of interventions could we imagine would have made a difference and it and it's like it's it's obviously too late in that situation. But it's like there are still people around us that are aching for love. They're aching for help.

[00:20:32]for just knowing that there's someone out there that they're not going through this alone. Um, I remember one there there's a musical artist, a Christian artist I used to listen to a lot as a Christian uh named Michael Card and he had a song that I I don't know for sure if it was about suicide but I always presumed it was because of the the sort of the darkness of it but it's it's it's basically this song where he says I will always leave the darkness for the light and um just about going through hard times and it's you just think to yourself that there are some people like I've never struggled with suicide but there are people around us that really do struggle with it and they're going through hard times and you think what would it take for us to show up in these darkest um these moments you know where people that you know maybe we it's not our journey but like we can show up and make a big difference. I remember years ago I I interviewed a guy um great guy named Jason Folks. He has a YouTube channel called Dragons in Genesis. And I was expecting to do an interview with him about just his story out of Christianity. And we talked for probably twothirds of it about the fact that he struggles every single day with suicide, suicidal ideiation. Like he just he's like I have to wake up every day and figure out a reason to stay alive one more day. He's like that's it's like it's not like a past event. He's like, I have had it much worse in the past, but he's like, I wake up every day and have to figure out if I want to live one more day. And it's just it's it breaks my heart and it just makes me think I that's not my journey, but like I know that we we can support each other. We can wrap our arms around each other if possible and try to make sure people know that they're not alone. And um but can I ask with your particular situation they some of the people around you really made it worse by by responding to your grief and your loss very inappropriately. Could you that's something that I was not really aware of that it happens. But can you tell us some of the ways that the you know that the people around you sort of put blame on on you for this?

[00:22:25]>> Yeah. Um, so my late husband was a sergeant for the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department and you know I found him at our home and you have to live in the city that you work in as a cop. So when I called 911, I'm calling his, you know, dispatch. I'm calling his department and they are the ones that are coming to my home to process this uh suicide. but they treat it uh like a homicide and they have to rule you out as a suspect.

[00:23:03]And though you know when I say that my husband died by suicide and he's a cop, people automatically think gunshot. And without going into the method, I will say that I didn't know the that you could die the way that my husband died.

[00:23:20]And it was the most horrific thing I have ever seen in my life. And um there but there was no way that I could have killed him in the manner that he died in. And also I was the only one that was interviewed. I thought there was going to be if you're ruling out suspects then why am I the only one being interviewed?

[00:23:45]Um even like the moment like that they came. I'm on the ground in on uh the driveway and on my hands and knees screaming for help and nobody would and they were like just kept their distance. I that's what I would say. They just kept their distance the entire time this whole thing has happened uh through this journey. They have kept their distance.

[00:24:18]Um, the first cop that talked to me, uh, he snapped at me. Uh, he told me to sit on my couch and to stay there. Um, they uh, when I was told I was going to be interviewed by the detectives, I was told by the liaison, they're not going to be warm and fuzzy. And boy, they were not warm and fuzzy. uh you like you are you're being interrogated and all I could do was tell them that it was my fault as a uh as many loss survivors do especially the ones who are the immediate loss survivors um you know the primary like this is the primary person in my life we will blame ourselves and so I thought this is all my fault And I'm spilling my guts to them of what why I think I did it that I drove my husband to this and they they ran with it. And by the way, I will tell you if they don't have a warrant and my late husband warned me uh several months before his death because he had planned this methodically. He warned me and said, "Do not ever let a police officer in your h in our house without a warrant." I said, "Do not let the cops in. If a cop ever comes over here without a warrant, do not let them come in." I will I will back that up. Do not let them in. Because they went through my home. They took uh our computers, our financial reports, my journal. They took everything out and pointed the finger right at me. even though his suicide letter it it um it he wrote how the job had turned him into something he didn't even recognize anymore and he blamed his job for his suicide and then they blamed our marriage me uh I blamed no one I say that his life exceeded his coping skills but even even at the funeral um that I it wasn't everyone, but there was a noticeable amount of the department that skipped over me and glared at me. Uh I waited around for months with my door open hoping somebody was going to come over to my house from the department.

[00:26:54]Nobody would come over. Uh you know, I think if he had died in the line of duty, would this be the way that they treat me? know, they wouldn't they didn't even know I existed. People didn't even know that my husband was married. He kept things such a secret.

[00:27:10]Um, but he, you know, come out to find out that he was having affairs with people and, uh, one of them was a dispatcher in the KCK police department.

[00:27:21]So, this it was just a giant mess. And you know, hearing that he had affairs that that people automatically assume, okay, then he hated his wife. But I come to find out the affairs were the the entire 17 years that we were together. I had no idea. And so uh but people stayed away from me. They didn't even treat me like trash. They treated me like a disease. And there was no casserles.

[00:27:52]There was nothing like that. After the funeral, I reached out and I reached out and I reached out uh to the chief and he ignored me every single time. And I was able to finally talk to two of his colleagues, uh, one of which who refused to come over unless his wife was present, which that's a whole another story to talk about with widows and the and how we're treated. But then the other one, the second one, it took him two years to come over to my house and then him telling me, "We don't blame you." Oh, yeah. Well, where the hell have you been? Where have you been? Where is everyone? Why are you doing this? you know, um, but I know that people who die in an accident or I say a physical illness or in the line of duty, you know, this the mourers receive sympathy and empathy and then the loss survivors are met with judgment, blame, and shunning. And that's how um I don't want to steer off too much, but when I've heard stories of people who leave their religion and how they are shunned or dysfellowshipped, uh I can I'm not going to say I understand, but I can definitely identify with those feelings.

[00:29:33]>> It's hard to imagine. I mean this this this whole thing is crazy but it it really brings up the reality that human empathy often at the most critical times is just devoid. And it's not just you know we're usually talking about it in terms of Christianity and church people but it's amazing the just the the horror of it and it feels I mean I think it's it's what we're all thinking as listeners to like we're so sorry that you went through that alone. I mean, it should have been people people should have been rallying around you like crazy and encouraging you and making sure you didn't feel alone and making sure you felt like you had people around you that cared about you and were were there for you and um you know, we're able to support you. I'm so sorry. I just man that that's awful. Um my my journey out of Christianity was similar, but it was not like that. My my PTSD was um not not at all like what you're talking about. and I just feel can't even imagine some of the grief that you went through and I'm just so sorry for it. Um, can I ask is what has made a difference since then as as the years have passed has anybody um, you know, stepped up and and and have there been people that have been able to be a part of your sort of reggrounding in the last few years?

[00:30:52]>> Okay. Well, I was part of a support group here in Kansas City and they helped me so much to know that I was not alone and hearing how other people are shunned, especially the widows. I haven't heard a whole lot of widowers that were shunned, but definitely the widows. Um and to find that connection, the validation h it it was the greatest gift I gave myself was to go to a suicide loss support group and I was with them for many years and I then became a board member and I I mean like I was all in. I I I loved them and they were my lost family. And every year we would do a a walk for loss survivors um here in Kansas City. And the only thing is that we would have this giant prayer and there was, you know, this this guy that come out with doves and do a big dove release and he'd do this giant prayer and and we also have on our board we had a chaplain and he would do a big prayer too. And I finally one day said as a closeted atheist, I I said in the board uh room, I I said, you know, not everyone believes in the same God as you or they don't believe at all. You know, could we do a moment of silence instead of a prayer? And you would have thought I had cut asked them to cut off their limbs.

[00:32:48]like it was it was like a giant mutiny at that point. I still have the emails that they wrote me. Um they were like one of them was like do you also want us to get rid of the you know in God we trust off money and um one nation under God out of the pledge of allegiance? And I'm like yes I I would like that. Uh, but I don't think we're going to be able to accomplish that at our su suicide loss group. Um, and I stuck with them for about a year or two hoping that they would uh see my perspective.

[00:33:33]Um I told them please please don't please that the emails what they were saying to me uh coming that I was coming in with my own agenda.

[00:33:44]Um you know people were threatening to quit the the board themselves of you we were going to take God out of the the support group. Um you know I I was like please don't I love you. I this is the reason I didn't want to say anything.

[00:34:01]Please don't do this. you know, I love you guys. You mean everything to me. And I was just getting the worst emails back and then how I was being treated. It shifted and I felt very otherred in that boardroom. And I was also referred to as a witch. I remember that. And they all laughed uh at my expense. And uh I I uh Oh, and then the support the actual support group meetings with laws survivors, they did a prayer. The last time I was there, they did a prayer to the group and they had never done that before. And they said, "I think everyone needs to hear this." And I said, "Not me."

[00:34:49]And I left that board because Dr. Daryl Ray, I told him this story, the founder of Recovering from Religion, he lives here out in Kansas City, too. And he said, "We want you."

[00:35:05]And so that's started the support group for suicide bereavement through recovering from religion because some of us don't find religion helpful in our grief journey. So that's that's how I came to be with RFR.

[00:35:21]>> Well, that's amazing. I love that. And by the way, we've had Dr. Ray on here a couple times so far and um also Steve Jakatus who's in the in the um comments as well. So, uh thank you so much to all of you doing so much great work for recovering from religion. I had told uh Dr. Ray as well as Steve before that I I when I first escaped Christianity, I did call a couple times, spoke to somebody in the UK and someone else in Australia, I believe. Um, and it just it's it's just a great great place again for anyone that doesn't know about recovering from religion. Um, a lot of people are afraid that groups like groups like that's going to, you know, insist that you become an atheist or an agnostic and they they don't do anything of the sort. They just they just talk you through it. There are support there and if you want to stay a Christian, you want to stay a Muslim, whatever, it's it's your journey. They're just there to support you and help you and make sure that you don't feel alone in your questions. They're just so sensitive to everybody's, you know, thought autonomy, their journey, their privacy. They do such a great job. And um, you know, if anyone is going through the a tough time with their deconstruction, decon conversion, I definitely recommend they call. But, um, I I was not aware about the part that you're talking about where you focus a little bit more directly on, you know, going through the grieving process, especially with the topic of suicide.

[00:36:36]It's it's such a different thing when you think to yourself sort of simultaneously, I don't know anymore if there's an afterlife. I don't know if, you know, I'm going to see my loved one again. And also Christians sometimes throw in, you know, well, they're they're going to the bad place and and but either way, like you're like, I I just don't know anymore. And that that hope that we used to have of, well, it's all going to be okay, so this is going to be a grieving process, but it'll all be okay in the end for sure when we all get to heaven.

[00:37:05]um you lose that certainty and it's really a very different experience. How do you help people process that who are going through it and they're at that point where like I just the the old comfort isn't there anymore?

[00:37:18]>> Yeah. And our support group um me and Jason is the other facilitator. I got my facilitator um training through the American Foundation of Suicide Prevention. And a lot of it is listening, you know, to sit back and listen because we do have people who attend. We do it the second Tuesday of every month. Um and it's from 7 to 900 p.m. uh central time. Uh we have people from around the world that sign on and uh to hear their stories of even you know some people are like I am religious. I'm just now questioning everything now that you know my loved one has died by suicide. And by the way, I use the terminology died by suicide. I don't say committed suicide because it has holds the negative connotation that they've committed a sin, they've committed a crime and it's neither. Um, and I and I feel like it's religious negative connotation in there. So I say died by suicide. I uh you know people can say whatever they want. Uh I you know we don't you know police people in their terminology but this is what I prefer to say. Uh, and so when people come in and they're like, I'm questioning now. We are a safe space.

[00:38:44]Because I've been in those support groups where people have said in Kansas City here, I'm questioning. And then we have all these people that then come in, you know, like, oh no, God loves you and God loves them. And so, you know, we don't do that in our support group. We let them just talk. We let them listen.

[00:39:04]We let them process.

[00:39:06]uh we let them have questions and uh you know I it's it's a safe non-judgmental space uh with shared experiences in there.

[00:39:20]>> It's amazing. Such a needful thing. I wanted to ask a little bit about your book and I'm going to bring up the the image here for a second and I'll take it back down. But um it's it's actually you first see the background of our video here is the Van Go story night and I appreciate so much the the beauty of you picking that but this is the book.

[00:39:36]you'll see where we've got the picture from. Um, but it's called Goodn Night, Mr. Vincent Van Go. And, uh, again, the link for that on Amazon is right beneath this video if anybody wants to pick it up. But could you tell us what prompted you to write that book and how it's helpful for children and adults?

[00:39:53]Tim, anger is an underrated feeling because the anger that I felt and how I was treated, it really catapulted how uh I was coping and I was coping in really unhealthy ways. But then it became art. My art became the way that I maneuvered around people. Because if you feel in your life that people are not listening to you, well, there are other people that will listen to you and and art is a great avenue for that and to channel your rage, your anger. Um, so, uh, as a school teacher, without naming, you know, where I work, uh, I had a former principal at the elementary school that, um, I had come to her and asked her, "Can I tell the kids that my husband was at least sick?" Because they were coming, they all knew Officer Dittle, you know, he ate lunch at the school. He would frequent sometimes and when they heard that he died and everybody was very hush hush what had happened. Um they were making up stories. You know they were filling in the blanks. He died at a fire. He died in the the you know a shooting and none of it was true. And I didn't want to lie to them. I also didn't want to you know share graphic details or anything. But I'm like thinking in my head, this is part of the problem. We're sweeping it under the rug. You know, this is and then it what does it do? It makes people in the future not want to talk about it.

[00:41:45]And so it thus continues this cycle. So I asked her, can I at least say he was sick? And she said, don't even go that far.

[00:41:57]I was I felt already so isolated.

[00:42:01]I felt even more shame when she said that. And I woke up in a panic and I wrote this book in like 20 minutes. And I I wrote it based on our curriculum. Uh because as an elementary art teacher in the state of Missouri, we are to talk about Vincent Van Go's artwork and we show this pretty picture of Starry Night to the kids and we don't say why Vincent Van Gogh painted it, you know, where he was when he painted it. And then he was in a hospital getting help, you know, for his depression. Like he's getting help. Um, we show them this portrait of Vincent Van Go with his ear cut off and we tell the kids he cut off part of his ear, but we're not telling them why he cut off part of his ear. And a lot of the times it gets made fun of. I mean, this is selfharm.

[00:43:03]This is selfharm. And we're making fun of it and laughing and joking about it with the kids. And so I wanted to write a children's book because there was no children's books on um how to talk to kids about suicide loss. And so I thought I'm going to write one. And all the illustrations are made by different loss survivors from my support group.

[00:43:30]And uh yeah, it it just it talks about suicide loss through Vincent Van Gogh in a gentle way without sweeping it under the rug.

[00:43:41]>> What would if a child was to read it, what would the main message be?

[00:43:47]>> Well, uh for the kids that have lost someone that it's not their fault. It's not their fault. They blame themselves.

[00:43:58]Uh, and and it's not even just a children's book. I have readers that are into their 80s that read this and they're like, "It isn't my fault. This isn't my fault." Um, that this is a medical emergency.

[00:44:13]Th this is this is our mental health.

[00:44:17]You know, it's got questions in there.

[00:44:18]Didn't they know that I love them?

[00:44:20]Suicide doesn't discriminate. It doesn't discriminate against religion or ethnicity, race, gender, how much you love them or they love you, it does not matter. Uh so to have that validation in the book that this is not your fault.

[00:44:42]>> So helpful. It seems like to like just it is a struggle I think that a lot of us who are adults would have with being you know trauma informed enough and and giving that honesty in an appropriate way around topics like death and and suicide or any kind of grief or mental health where it's like we do need adults that are able to speak in a clear way with compassion uh in developmentally appropriate ways and not sort of you know drown this uh thing and soak this thing in in panic and shame or blame.

[00:45:15]Um, it's interesting too thinking about how a lot of Christians are are sort of trained by default to see any kind of grief and loss and pain and suffering through this grid, this lens of like sin and punishment and maybe even spiritual warfare or a divine testing. Um, you know, God's will and people obeying or disobeying it. Um, do you get people that you talk to who are from through the recovering from religion side of it where they're trying to process their grief appropriately, but this framework of this was part of sin or part of God's plan or punishment that it does it sort of have a whole whole bunch of different nuances for how you help them heal?

[00:46:01]>> Oh yeah. I mean people told me and people who come to the support group for through recovering from religion we have been told that our hus our loved ones are burning in hell and like when they come and just you know people who do believe like I I you know I don't believe it doesn't hurt me in the same way I just think you're a rotten person like you think think you're being helpful. You're not helpful. You're disgusting. Who tells that to somebody? You That's not helpful at all. You That's the opp opposite of it. But then people who come into the support group who do believe and they hear that and how much that it how painful that is for them and how they're trying to process that like to hold space for them. Um, yeah. It I don't know why people think that they that that is an okay thing to say, especially to females that I mean that I I see that it's like we're kind of like an easy target, I think. You know, they they're burning in hell, don't you?

[00:47:21]I don't hear a lot of men who come in who say I was told this. I hear a lot of women saying that, too.

[00:47:30]It's hard to imagine the lack of kindness and basic decency that it takes, but at the same time, Christianity is a very cruel worldview, and so it's in some ways not surprising, but it still hurts that it happens. Um, in terms of secular people, do you have any advice for for ways that secular people can maybe show up better when we're talking about, you know, death or other traumas, you know, different losses, maybe funerals and memorials. um you know whether it's meals like you mentioned um you know child care just checking in doing some kind of encouragement um I mean I I imagine that for a lot of people when you go through these kind of losses it's just months upon months maybe even years of incredible loneliness and darkness and just it's like you really need a consistent friend that just shows up over and over and over and says we're going to get through this and I'm not leaving like I'm not leaving your side you can't you can't cry so much that I'm going to get tired of of being a shoulder to cry on. Like, I'm here through the duration. We're we're going to get through this. Like, how can the secular community do a better job of showing up?

[00:48:39]>> Well, you just said it.

[00:48:41]You you do, you know? You You do what you can. And if you're like miles away, states away, countries away, I don't know. I what I do is I'll reach out. I send a playlist. I check in. Um, but if you're around, I think something that would have helped me more is um, people not whispering and making rumors.

[00:49:12]Uh, I think that's also part of why I speak up so much because it seemed like everybody else knew so well my story and was saying terrible things and sharing things and I, you know, I wanted to then speak up and say this is my story. You don't know my story and stop sharing my story. But having trusted people and also like when you share with someone something that you can trust that it just stays with them that they're not going to go around and telling other people this little juicy tidbit. You know, it's like that you have to have self-control and empathy for this person that what I share with you is going to stay with you. That would have definitely helped. you know, having trusted people. I did have trusted people, but then there was untrusting people as well, too. I think also I would love to have seen a casserole. I would not have eaten it. Uh I I stopped eating. Uh I stopped like like I lost 30 pounds in the first month and a half after he died. Like immediate weight loss. I couldn't stop crying. I could I didn't want to eat anything. I felt sick to my stomach. But boy, it would have been nice, you know, to have a casserole come my way and somebody just sit sit with me. Maybe just even just listen.

[00:50:46]You I and I had people that would come and sit and and listen, but you the people that you expect that you think are going to be there for you sometimes are not. But you have to really look for those special people that come out of the woodworks, you know, and and there was some that I was like blown away like I didn't expect this person to be here but they are here. Um so yeah being that listening ear even if that person shares the story a hundred times over that's the greatness of the support group. You can come in and say the same thing time after time after time. We're not going to judge you. We're not going to say you've already said this.

[00:51:37]You can come in and it's a safe space for you to share what you need to share.

[00:51:43]But yes, having a person sit next to you saying, "I don't know what you're going Oh, Tim, that is a that's the one thing I that would get under my skin is when somebody would say, I know what you're going through. I would lose it in the inside. I'm like, you have no idea. I don't even tell another widow of suicide who is a a widow of a police officer who's died by suicide. I don't even tell them that I know what they're going through. I have no idea what they're going through. So, I stay away from that line. I say, "I don't know what you're going through, but I care about you and I love you."

[00:52:27]That's that's what I say.

[00:52:29]>> Yeah. And all all it takes is a little human empathy, a little human decency and kindness to to have that mindset.

[00:52:36]It's amazing how often that exact thing is what Christians who are sort of grieving the the loss of their worldview expect from Christians. And it's just Christians just can't do it. They can't they can't give any empathy. They can only give condemnation. And it's it's amazing how there's some some parallels here of of just there's something about us that's really disconnected. And it is a beautiful soul that can do what you're saying that can just be like I'm not here with any judgment. I'm not here with just a short time at, you know, attention span where, you know, you can grieve for a little bit, but then you have to pull yourself together like this is just this is the time to truly truly grieve this loss. Um when you when you do look at your work with recovering from religion, do you feel like some of the the things that you the lessons you've learned and the things you've gone through from your lo the loss uh of your late husband, do you feel like that's helped you at all to relate to and empathize with people who are grieving the loss of their um you know their their god character that they used to believe in?

[00:53:43]>> Oh yeah. when I sit and for the documentary um sitting with people and hearing their stories, trusting me with their stories first off, you know, that's huge that they're sharing with me. Um and and and saying how or that they're shunned. Like when I hear I have great empathy when I hear people being shunned and I I break inside.

[00:54:21]I also want to stay on course of I want to share their stories. This this is important. This needs to be heard. um uh you know where so many people wanted to shut their ears and not hear what I had to say whether it scared them or they just couldn't do it or they blame me whatever it was like you know trying to share my story. Um and the people that took it in how much that meant to me.

[00:55:03]um how they are sharing their stories. It is it is important. Other people need to hear it and I want to I want I want to make sure people hear what they have to say. H one thing that I sort of love to focus on a lot on this channel with the many many stories that come through is the reality that when someone shares their story, you never know who might listen who's going to really relate to it and they might say by virtue of the fact that you and I our stories connect. You know, maybe like their my story might not be like the listener's story, but the the interviewees story might be. And so maybe the listener and the and the interviewee are able to really be on the same page, so to speak, and the listener is sitting there thinking, you know, our stories are similar, and if you made it, I can make it. And it's amazing how people's stories have so much power where you basically do become someone else's survival manual. And I think it's it's amazing the the power that we have in telling these stories. and to say we can get through it, but it takes the bravery for those that can to speak up and share their story and obviously for those who are still hurting to be able to listen to it, receive it. But in terms of just some of the broader lessons, what are some of the things that are make your work with recovering from religion so meaningful and beautiful to you? What are what are some of the success stories in your mind as to your your you know whether it's just um building friendships or or the the ways that you see people's lives sort of get reggrounded and especially um I wanted to ask if you could weave in the idea of you you mentioned before that you'd grown up feeling unwanted um a lot of us feel very unwanted in general by Christians when we leave um how do people re reclaim their lives in the sense of like the loving themselves accepting themselves mselves finding themselves no longer worrying about am I worthy or worthless or anything. How do they reclaim all that, you know, in some of these discussions that you see them having with you?

[00:57:14]>> Man, that's how do you approach it?

[00:57:17]>> That's a big one. Um, boy, Tim. Um, >> well, I'll give you a second to think about it if you need to, but um, I was going to say I think I think the self- loveve is just a big part of this because a lot of us, we we're trained so much to not love ourselves and to blame ourselves for whatever reason that when it comes to healing, we find ourselves often saying, "I want to love myself. I want to think well of myself. There's just something in me that says no."

[00:57:45]>> I because I go to therapy. I've been in therapy now for 11 years, you know, since my husband's death. And something for me is what I see with RFR, what it does is it it's helping take off that mask and people getting to be themselves. So like that's to me is selflove and and that's what I see with RFR. And uh I don't know any other way to explain it than just taking off that mask.

[00:58:24]>> Yeah, it's a great way to put it. I think too sometimes just admitting how much we're struggling is itself healing.

[00:58:30]Um I've shared this story before so I'll keep this short because um again my regular listeners have heard this too many times but when I was in Bible college I was taking piano lessons from this wonderful man. Um he's short little man with these little beady glasses. He just looked like a it's like the grand short little stubby grandfather that you just you know big bowl full of jelly kind of guy just so much love beautiful beautiful heart and for whatever reason no one else signed up for that particular hour of that piano lessons like he was trying to have three four five k students in the class at one time and I signed up for one particular hour no one else signed up for that hour and he could have canceled it and said there's just not enough people that signed up I'm sorry but he said no no I'll just I'll meet oneonone with you.

[00:59:14]And we got to be friends because of it, because of more one-on-one time. And there was this one time, maybe a couple months into the lessons, it was like once or twice a week where he said, "Tim, just I want you to turn off the piano, the you know, digital piano, turn off the piano. Let's just let's just take this hour and just talk." And he could tell I was really struggling with some stuff. And he asked me like eight or 10 questions and about just what was going on in my life at the time. And when he got to the end of it, he said, 'I want to ask you one more question, he said, 'You feel completely worthless, don't you? And I mean to tell you, I just started balling. And it was obvious I didn't have to answer his question, but it was it was a pivot point for me in some ways because he had the psychological and emotional insight to weed through all the masks and all the facads of it all and all the stories and say there there's there's one big issue here. Like yeah, you need this little problem solved and I hope that part of your life gets better, but there's one real big issue. you you literally if you could like peel it all away and say what is the big worldview driver of Tim's mentality currently in know that year in Bible college the issue was at that time I felt completely worthless and he just cut through all the all the red tape and all the the spiderwebs around it and just said this is the issue but there was it was it was grievous it was very you know disturbing in a sense to be like wow that's the issue but it was also very healing and cathartic to be like that's the issue.

[01:00:48]Like the issue isn't you need all these little relationships fixed or this and that. Like you need to focus on the fact that that's your internal voice is very mean to yourself. You are not a kind person. Like I'm kind to everybody else but you are not kind to yourself and you you cut yourself down like this. That's where this conversation needs to move.

[01:01:09]Um it sounds like that was probably part of your journey too. How are you doing at this point with just really being kind to yourself and being safe in your own mind?

[01:01:20]>> Yeah. Um, I have a great therapist, Grace. She's amazing. I do EMDR therapy once a week.

[01:01:28]>> Okay. Uh for those who don't know, it's eye movement desensit desensitization reprocessing therapy and taking those traumatic um memories. But I'm not even I'm not even at the point to get to the huge traumatic memories yet. I'm still like those are like number 10 levels. I'm down like at number two or three levels still and and helping myself um uh go through those memories. Uh it helps manage them. Uh I too like you know one thing was we're trained to disrespect ourselves like like we're train like we respect everybody else but not ourselves and how to be kinder to ourselves and the the way that I talk to myself uh being aware of that I I do I that I have been unkind uh so a whole lot kinder self-t talk Um, and I really attribute that to to Grace and and how much she's helped me. So, uh, yeah, >> that's awesome. Yes, having someone like that is worth the weight and gold.

[01:02:48]That's amazing. Well, could I ask maybe just um I'd like to go to the comments for a second here before we move towards a wrap-up, but could you be thinking maybe just about um number one, anything else in your story that we didn't get to that you wanted to share? But also, uh, there's people that are just going through the hardest parts of their journey, whether it's deconversion, uh, deconstruction, the shunning part of it you touched on, or a very significant grief and loss in their life, trauma.

[01:03:14]Some people are just stuck. Um, I' I've I've been through some hard things. I've I've spent I've spent uh weeks of my life at times staring at a wall. I know I know what it feels like to just stare at a wall and do nothing pretty much more than just go to work and come home and stare at a wall. I've done that before and I know a lot of other people have probably done the same thing and it's just like life at times is really really painful. Um could you maybe just think of after we go through the comments here a word of advice you give to someone that's just going through the hardest parts where they just feel like it's it's really dark um and they just at this point they just they need to get through not not the whole process they just need to get through one more hour, one more day, one more hour. But let me read a few quick comments here and then we'll um we'll bring it to a wrap-up. Um but I wanted to start with uh Thomas captioning isn't available. Uh the captioning for live streams occurs um it has to process but it will it'll be available maybe in a day. Um Steve Jakatus to my faves. Thank you so much Steve. We love you so much. We appreciate you being here. Um Lindsay is a warrior. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um Tom, thank you for being so open. Thank you so much, Tom. Um yeah, talking about Christian love. Yeah, often Christians just can't can't empathize. They just can't. It's it's just part of the issue of if they're right, then they're they think they're so right that there's no no way to deconstruct without being being dead wrong. Therefore, they just want to condemn you. Uh nothing more annoying than when you have a real human loss and someone tries to comfort you with stories about cartoon figures in the sky. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um Kevin, I think that's probably shorthand for good morning. Thank you so much, Kevin. Great to see you. Uh oh, I see who was shorthand for this. Good distinction between died by and committed when referring to suicide.

[01:04:57]Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that distinction that you made. Um, Blueberry Hobbit. Uh, cool handle. Safe in your own mind is a good way to phrase it.

[01:05:06]Yeah. And so many of us are have not been we've not been safe in our own bodies or our minds for a very long time. And that's it's hard. Um, it's it's weird how you can like deconstruct from Christianity and you know that it's not real. you know that the God character is made up. You know that the theology is not real. But when you've spent 40 years or more or whatever of your life saying to yourself, you're wicked, you're bad, don't trust yourself, God sees inside your head and he's judging you and you're desperately wicked and you're sinful and you deserve punishment. Even though you deconstruct the worldview uh or the belief system, the worldview that's spent decades saying you're bad, bad, bad, bad, bad is still there. It's really still there.

[01:05:48]And um in many ways that she has taught us to not be kind to ourselves. So it's a journey. It's a journey to be safe to ourselves. And uh looks like the last comment here uh for today is thank you Lindsay. Yep. Thank you so much. If anyone is putting a final comment in, it does take a minute or two to show up on my side. So if you have any final comments, feel free to post them. We'll we'll read them real quick, but otherwise we're going to wrap up in a few minutes. Um but um Lindsay, if you could just give us the final word for anybody that's just really they they see us talking about it matterof factly, but to them it's just it's all tears right now. What would you say to somebody in the darkest part of this?

[01:06:22]about a year and a half after my husband died. Uh because I never thought about suicide in my life. Uh I I started to have uh suicidal ideiation.

[01:06:39]And I don't see suicide as a choice. I see it as when somebody runs out of choices.

[01:06:47]And I felt out of choices. and I had attempted on my life and uh thankfully nothing happened and I went and I got help. I had to open up and I had to be vulnerable and truthful.

[01:07:12]And I think about the choices of building choices in my life and creating the choices. And um but at that moment it was like there was nothing there was nothing uh for me. But now I feel like I've been building choices. And one thing that has helped me um because I felt like I couldn't show any kind of happiness or joy cuz that would equal that I didn't love my late husband.

[01:07:58]And like I and at that time it was like pain equaled love. Showing how much pain I was in. And I know this is not for everyone, but this was for me and this is how I can answer this question for you. There was a book by Joan Rivers uh called Bouncing Back and she her husband Edgar had died by suicide as well. And she was out with her daughter for dinner and they were laughing. She shared a joke and they were laughing and someone came up to her and said, "I knew your husband." How dare you sit over here and you're laughing. You're out to dinner. Like, and like she couldn't believe that, you know, Joan Rivers had the audacity to live her life.

[01:08:54]And Joan Rivers said in her book, "Don't give two shits what other people think that you create that happiness for yourself. you you find joy and don't worry about anybody else. And for me that has been helpful.

[01:09:17]What a great reminder.

[01:09:20]Yeah, it's it seems like it's one of the common threads in some ways too just across all these kinds of situations and stories and interviews that at some point one of the best things to do is just to stop listening to other people's feedback.

[01:09:37]And it takes a thick skin to do it. It's hard especially those of us that are more sensitive and more introspective and the kind of people that we tend to replay people's feedback over and over.

[01:09:47]you know, someone says something and we hear it in our heads for the next four days, it's hard. It's very hard. It's not an easy thing to flip that switch, but to be able to to be able to find your strength in yourself and not um let other people sort of get into your inner sanctum, it's a it's a worthwhile pursuit. So, I appreciate that encouragement. Very good stuff. I did want to mention too, um we got another comment here before we wrap up.

[01:10:10]Blueberry Hobbit, but again, I joined late, so I don't know if it's been shouted out enough yet, but Lindsay's support group is truly wonderful. I can absolutely recommend attending. My experiences have been so positive.

[01:10:21]That's awesome. How would someone I know we've got the recovering from religion link uh beneath this video. How would someone directly connect with the group that you're that we're talking about there? How would they get in touch with you?

[01:10:35]>> Um I don't know who that last person was, but thanks. Glad that it's helped.

[01:10:41]um if they go to recovering fromreligion.org and you can go to the website and you can either uh well you can call in and you can ask that you want to be part of the suicide bereavement support group and so talking with somebody at recovering from religion there is a phone number on there on the website that they can call and they can get set up.

[01:11:08]>> Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so very much. Well, this has been um it's been again a different interview. Um I usually, as you know, interview people for their stories of escaping religion, but I think in many ways the the beauty of of even though this is a very different interview, I think it's important because we're all really in many ways realizing that life is very lonely. uh whether you're talking about escaping religion or other aspects of the the journey and life is is painful and we're also just we're we're so needing stories and community and support and I just appreciate your encouragement and how how we can get past the worst parts of this and try to get support to get through it. And I just want to encourage anybody that's going through the hardest parts of this too. Number one, we've got the, you know, the the links for the phone number and the the website for the suicide hotline. Um, the 988, but also, you know, recovering from religion is there.

[01:12:03]And, um, this the book that we mentioned, I'll bring that picture back up on last time. Um, please support Lindsay's book. Um, good night, Mr. Vincent Vango. And just just to know, um, you know, please, if anyone's just truly empty, reach out. Reach out to me.

[01:12:18]all the ways to connect with me this video. Reach out to recovering from religion. Um there's people that care.

[01:12:24]There's people that really care. Please don't go through this alone, especially if you are uh you know truly in a in a spot where you're thinking of harming yourself. There's people that want to support you and help you. And we really do care. This is not we're not saying we we care about you only if you're an atheist or you're an agnostic. We only care about you if you think like us.

[01:12:42]Like we really care. We want to we want to walk through the darkest times and we can get through this. We can get through this together. But did you have any final thoughts or anything else uh you wanted to add, Lindsay, before we wrap up today?

[01:12:53]>> I just think thank you, Tim. Thanks for listening and, you know, wanting to share this story uh with your viewers. It helps.

[01:13:05]Um, and hopefully these resources can help somebody. Um, but I appre appreciate everything that you do. So, thank you for being above the ride.

[01:13:19]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much and please do keep us in mind if it sounds like you're as a videographer and a artist, you probably got some other uh projects up your sleeve that are coming down the pike. When you do have the next big project and you need to put it on blast, please remember my channel and reach out. We'll we'll we'll get you back on for the next video or whatever your big project is. But, um I'll just wrap up by saying thank you so much to Lindsay Doolittle for sharing her story and insights with us today.

[01:13:42]And thank you too for the community for being a part of our lives and letting us be a part of yours. and uh we'll be in touch. We'll be doing more live streams and everything. So, please keep an eye on the channel. But thanks again everybody. Have a wonderful day. Thanks, Lindsay.

[01:13:54]>> Thanks.

[01:14:11]again.

[01:14:24]But I'm not going