Will Starmer survive the Mandelson vetting scandal? | Badenoch, Sturgeon, Jenrick on ITV Peston

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[00:00:03]Can Starmer [music] actually govern if he's lost the confidence of the civil service? He is Ollie Robbins, the last person he can sack for his own mistakes.

[00:00:11]The Tory leader Kemi Badenoch will tell me why Starmer should quit if he misled Parliament when Boris Johnson constantly refused. And I'll ask the ex-first minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, if the Mandelson debacle is worse than Partygate.

[00:00:36]Watcher, the country deserves better than the row between the Prime Minister and the ex-Foreign Office boss, Ollie Robbins. Starmer says Robbins should have told him that Mandelson failed vetting that if he had known he would have U-turned on making Mandelson US Ambassador. Robbins says Mandelson didn't fail and the PM doesn't get that it's the Foreign Office, not UK security vetting, that makes the decision.

[00:00:59]Top civil servants say it's the Prime Minister that's wrong, but honestly, it's a sideshow because Starmer was given every reason not to appoint Mandelson by the Cabinet Office. That friendship with Epstein, the Russia and China links, the commercial conflicts of interest, and yet he still went ahead with the appointment. There was no new news in the formal vetting investigation of substance. What the PM is now for saying is he doesn't trust his own judgment and needs to be instructed what to do by officials after a bureaucratic process, which isn't leadership. And if judged by his actions, Starmer's explanation for all those mistakes he's made is this is that officials always let him down. I've lost count of the advisors sacked by him in just 22 months from Sue Gray to Morgan McSweeney to Robbins among at least half a dozen others. So, Starmer's election slogan for May the 7th, with Labour, you just can't get the stuff, Pippa. Yes, Robert.

[00:01:58]Well, last week me and my colleagues at The Guardian dropped a political bombshell that Peter Mandelson hadn't hadn't failed his security vetting. And we're a week on and Starmer doesn't feel like he's in imminent danger, but what really is the damage? Now, I think he's looking increasingly isolated and it's certainly clear that his cabinet are trying to sort of distance themselves a bit from him. I'm told that their cabinet meeting yesterday was a pretty gloomy affair and there were ministers including David Lammy and Rachel Reeves that were warning against picking a fight against the civil service. And of course, if history tells us anything, it's that if the cabinet turned, it really would be over for him. Uh that would be lethal, but is there any sign of it happening soon? Well, I don't think that they're that they're yet, Robert, but this week is the first time that I've felt that they might be. And if you look at what they've said publicly, you've had people like Ed Miliband and Yvette Cooper and Pat McFadden all kind of sort of sharing their concerns about the row.

[00:02:55]And privately, they go much further and it's quite hard to find anybody that isn't very downbeat about Keir Starmer's prospects about turning things around.

[00:03:03]Uh Nicola, I'm going to see you. Um I mean, you have been at the coalface of politics for a few years. Um Looking at the way that confidence in Starmer is ebbing away, can that be turned around?

[00:03:18]>> No, but I've thought that for some time.

[00:03:20]I mean, the strap line on the program is was the beginning of the end, question mark. I think we're way beyond the beginning of the end. I mean, past the commercial break into the very end part of the end. I just don't think, particularly today's political climate, that Starmer can turn around the negative poll ratings. And that was my view even before the events of this week. And I think the parallel with the Tories and Boris Johnson is that they allowed him to continue long after he passed that point. And what then happened was that the party started to suffer the electoral rot as a result. And I think Labour are in that position as well. They The longer they allow Starmer to limp on with no authority, no credibility, no nothing, no relationship of any note with the public, then the more terminal damage I think they will do to the Labour brand.

[00:04:12]And I think we'll see the first signs of that on the 7th of May right across the country. So, there's lots more I need to explore in that area with you in a minute or two. Um delighted to be joined by Robert Jenrick. Can I just ask you as somebody who presumably worked with Ollie Robbins, um would you have kept him if he had not passed on the information that the Prime Minister claims he didn't pass on?

[00:04:37]Well, it's hard to judge, but it sounds like he just did what the Prime Minister wanted him to do.

[00:04:41]I mean, that's the irony of the situation, isn't it? He was new in his job. He knew that the Prime Minister was desperate to appoint Mandelson, well, in fact, he'd already appointed him, and that the King had approved it. It was all in the public domain. The inauguration was imminent. And so, Ollie Robbins followed a process he thought was correct and did what the Prime Minister asked. So, it was one of those rare occasions where the civil service, which sometimes don't do what their masters want, was actually doing what he was what he thought the Prime Minister wanted him to do. And where did he end up? He got sacked for the privilege. I Can I just ask you just cuz I will I'm struck by how few people understood that there are some departments that have control over vetting and others where it's all about so-called UK security vetting and they have no Did you understand this system? No, I have to confess I I didn't know all the ins and outs of it. No. Uh but you'd hope that someone would have explained that to the Prime Minister of all people. True. It's not So, I do think it's just problems with the civil service, of course, that Keir Starmer has or indeed with um his own cabinet or MPs. I'd like to show you this. We asked YouGov to poll on whether he thought or whether people thought um that Keir Starmer had been honest about the appointment. And if you look, 15 to the top bar there, 15% the blue at the left there think he has been, but 58% in red say that he hasn't. And that's up five points since last Friday. And it's definitely the case, Robert, that with a string of officials including former Chief of Staff Morgan McSweeney up in front of MPs in the coming days, the Mandelson scandal isn't going to go away anytime soon. No, and we've all I mean, we we were talking before we went um on air about how, you know, Parliament is being ended early.

[00:06:24]Um >> Very Boris Johnson. I mean, I mean, I mean, as somebody who had [clears throat] what what you might call a lively relationship with with with Boris Johnson, does it surprise you the extent to which some would say Starmer takes leaves out of that particular book? Um it does surprise me a bit. I suspect it's for slightly different reasons. I think Boris Johnson just had a complete disregard for the rules. With Starmer, I just think he's running scared of of Parliament and of his own shadow. I mean, I I genuinely am gobsmacked and what you said at the outset I think is right. You know, no disrespect to Pippa. I think, you know, The Guardian have done excellent work on this, but in a sense, you know, the problems started with Starmer's initial judgment to appoint Mandelson knowing everything he knew, made the decision before any process at all kicked in. And then everything we've seen since has has flowed from that. But the bit I don't So, I I get the Ollie Robbins stuff. You know, he, within the rules as he saw them, was doing the bidding of the Prime Minister. What I don't get is that when this all blew up and the scrutiny on the process was intense, it was existential for Starmer. He did not get every relevant civil service in a room and say, "Before I say everything about this process was above board, is there anything at all So, so many people have said this to me that So, many people have said this to me that you know, how is it that a lawyer DOESN'T ASK QUESTIONS? [laughter] I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I'VE I'VE been the first minister of a country. Before you go in camera, you you say, "Is there anything here that could blow a hole in the statement I'm about to make?" Anyway, Robert, I'm going to come back to you in a minute or two. Now, we're going to go to a conversation that I had with the leader of the opposition, Kemi Badenoch.

[00:08:02]She's been calling for Keir Starmer to resign and I said that given that she was part of that chaotic government which had three Prime Ministers during the last Parliament that was conspicuously bad for Britain, why would she wish that again on the country?

[00:08:19]Because the current Prime Minister that we have is not governing. He's just standing there. He can't manage even a simple appointment process in his office, hiring a national security risk despite warnings. Why should we think that he can run the economy or even our defense? We have former Labour defense secretaries, former NATO secretary generals saying the Prime Minister has a corrosive complacency when it comes to defense. That's not a reason to keep him there.

[00:08:49]But you were wrong when you called him a liar, weren't you?

[00:08:54]I don't think so. I don't think so. I've pointed to multiple things which the Prime Minister has said that aren't true. And I don't use that word lightly.

[00:09:02]I gave him the benefit of the doubt last September when I thought this was probably an error, but surely he wouldn't have hired this man without having gone through any kind of vetting or due diligence. And it turns out that he was told that Peter Mandelson had links to a Kremlin-linked defense company, and he still sent him to Washington. This was before any vetting had been done. This is shocking.

[00:09:28]I mean, some of us who lived through though the last Parliament still feel slightly traumatized by the number of times that then Prime Minister Boris Johnson misled Parliament. He didn't resign when accused of that. You've said Starmer has to resign, but if he follows Johnson's example, why on earth would he?

[00:09:49]Well, all I'm doing is holding Keir Starmer to the same standards that he held everyone else. I'm merely repeating his own words back to him. Otherwise, what he's saying is that he stood up at the dispatch box and said something that he didn't mean. This is very serious. I don't want to go over the question of whether or not you wanted the UK to join America in the war with terror, but you were very positive about Trump's attacks on Iran.

[00:10:16]I mean, looking at it today, Trump has lost. The Iranian government is stronger than ever.

[00:10:21]I mean, it's been disastrous for Trump.

[00:10:25]So, actually, I you know, my position has been very clear. In a war between the US and Iran, we are on the side of the US. We do not sit on the fence. Iran is an enemy of this country. It wants to wipe us out. Some people may disagree with that, but that is my position.

[00:10:41]>> you, was Trump totally misguided in this in this war?

[00:10:45]Well, well, I am not privy to Trump's strategy. Uh the Australians and the Canadians, left-wing also led by left-wing governments, were able to express verbal support. I was surprised that given our close defense relationship, our close security relationship, Keir Starmer didn't do that. Now, what I can't see is what Donald Trump's plan is. If I had been Prime Minister, I would have been saying, "Yes, the Iranians are a problem. What's the plan? We're not just going to go in willy-nilly without having a plan." Do you understand why so many British people are uneasy about America, Trump, being our closest ally when his war has done us so much harm?

[00:11:25]Simply saying, "Oh, well, we don't want to be friends with the US." in my view is not even an option. We have seen right now that our own defense spending Prime Minister doesn't have a plan. But it But I But I But I think it is it is relevant. This is This is not a dating relationship. Our relationship is with the United States. It's not just with President Trump. President Trump is not going to be there forever. There are other Americans who are concerned about our response. Our allies in the Gulf have also been concerned. Where is our plan? What is our Prime Minister doing?

[00:11:55]>> Minister's plan is to get closer to the European Union.

[00:11:58]The The The Prime Minister's plan is to get closer to the European Union, which you're very critical of. But what is the option in a world where America is an unreliable friend?

[00:12:09]But I'm But I'm not critical of getting closer to the European Union. But what does that mean? What does that mean?

[00:12:15]Europe is not spending more on defense.

[00:12:17]We are already close to the European Union. How much is that >> a is spending an amount Germany is spending a colossal amount extra on defense, a colossal amount extra.

[00:12:27]>> exactly. But Germany Germany is not the EU. We already have good relationships with Germany. We've had those for a long time. The EU is a different thing. The EU is a political union. It does not have an army. We're talking Let's not confuse doing more with European countries and doing more with the EU.

[00:12:42]This is a conflation that Keir Starmer likes to put out. It's all words. It's not real. He needs to focus on what's happening in the UK. We have our own oil and gas.

[00:12:51]There's a couple of things I have got to ask you. Um one is Yes, sure. If you were Prime Minister, could you have confidence in a senior official like Olly Robbins who withheld material information from you on such an important appointment?

[00:13:08]So, I had, as a Secretary of State, good relationships with a lot of senior civil servants. I don't think when I hear you listening to Olly Robbins >> joke about putting 10% of the civil service in prison.

[00:13:21]Well, I said Well, I There are some people who do very bad things. I don't think Olly Robbins is one of the is one of those people.

[00:13:27]We didn't tell people There are some brilliant civil servants and there are some terrible ones. I do think I do think the manner in which Olly Robbins has been sacked has raised more questions than answers. The Prime Minister claims that full due process was followed. He wants us to accept Olly Robbins' evidence that he didn't see uh uh any vetting. So, what's he sacked him for? It's not clear. What's he sacked him for? And this is the real problem.

[00:13:49]>> serious person for serious times. He sacked the Cabinet Secretary. He sacked the head of the Foreign Office, Sue Gray, his own Chief of Staff, his Director of Communications. These are all people he hired, including Peter Mandelson. He is sacking his own hires because he cannot run his office, let alone the country. So, very briefly, Mark Sedwill says Robbins should get his job back. Do you agree with Mark Sedwill?

[00:14:14]Well, I think that there is a very strong case for that. The Prime Minister has not set out exactly why Olly Robbins has sacked, except for the verbal uh confirmation. We're now hearing allegations that he didn't even speak to uh Sir Olly Robbins himself. If that is true, that's extraordinary. So, I think Mark Sedwill makes a very good point. Uh it is it it is really unprecedented to have Mark Sedwill, a former Cabinet Secretary, Sir Gus O'Donnell, a former Cabinet Secretary, Robin Butler, former Cabinet Secretary, all criticizing Keir Starmer. This isn't the opposition now.

[00:14:45]These are the neutral civil servants who've been there and seen it all for you know, over multiple governments. And they are saying Keir Starmer is doing something that is very wrong. Now, Martin Sweeney, the former Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister is giving evidence on Tuesday, and we've learned that the House will be rising on Tuesday. So, you won't be able to hold the Prime Minister accountable.

[00:15:11]I mean, I take it A, you're not thrilled. Is there anything you can do about that?

[00:15:17]Uh there's not very much uh that we can do about it. We don't have a majority in Parliament. Labour does. And they want to end Parliament as quickly as possible because they're having a miserable time.

[00:15:26]I would love to have another opportunity to question the Prime Minister. My My real problem is that I don't have enough uh opportunities uh to ask him questions. I could have PMQs every day.

[00:15:37]I need more than six questions. He is frit. He's running away from scrutiny.

[00:15:41]Uh he would prorogue Parliament today if he could get away with it.

[00:15:45]Uh Kelly Badenoch, as always, very good to see you. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:15:51]So, coming up in a few minutes, I'll be talking about the Mandelson debacle with a one of the most relevant departments, the Cabinet Office. That's the Cabinet Office Minister Nick Thomas-Symonds. But first, Nick Robert, I want to talk to you about this issue with pretty much every um opposition leader, including Nigel Farage, saying that Starmer's time is up because of the way he has mishandled not only the Mandelson appointment, but the aftermath. But I just want to show you what your leader, Nigel Farage, actually said about the uh appointment at the time it happened.

[00:16:27]And what he said was, "I might disagree with Mandelson on his politics, but he's a very intelligent man." It wasn't exactly, you know, the sharpest criticism of the uh appointment. Why didn't Nigel Farage at the time point out that it was going to be a disaster?

[00:16:42]Well, he wasn't the Prime Minister, was he? So, do you think that Nigel Farage as Prime Minister would have appointed Peter Mandelson as our ambassador? Well, who knows? Well, I think we do know the answer to that question, and [laughter] it's a resounding no.

[00:16:54]I mean, Nigel, like other people, thought, you know, now he's been appointed, you know, maybe he's somebody who could make a success of this.

[00:17:03]But it was obviously a terrible error of judgment by the Prime Minister to do it.

[00:17:07]And everyone in the Labour Party knew Peter Mandelson even better than the man or woman on the street. I think our our issue today is not just that the Prime Minister has mishandled this, but it is that the government is paralyzed.

[00:17:21]That That is what I think matters to us And does it remind you of when cuz you were you know, Yeah. at the time at the time of the government you know, I wasn't.

[00:17:30]And does it remind you of the paralysis in the last Parliament?

[00:17:33]>> It does. And And just as then, there was a there was a sort of moral dimension.

[00:17:38]You know, do you trust the judgment of the Prime Minister? Do you think he's the right person to lead the country?

[00:17:43]And then there was this question of is this government actually capable of leading the country? And that I think concerns me the most because you can imagine what's happening tonight in Number 10. Are our people talking about the cost of fuel on the forecourt? Are they talking about the small boats crisis? Are they talking about how we're going to get oil and gas flowing, you know, in the North Sea? No, of course they're not. They're briefing the Prime Minister for his next appearance.

[00:18:08]They're handling the committees that are going to come forward. Nothing is going to happen, and the concerns of ordinary people in the country are going to be completely neglected potentially for months, certainly for the next few weeks. And that is the real issue here.

[00:18:21]Robert, much more I need to talk to you about, um but first, we are going to get to Pippa in a second because this isn't the PM's only challenge. There are, as I've already mentioned, quite important elections in 2 weeks' time. Tell us about them. Yeah, Nicola, come and join me at the screen because you're right, Robert. There's May elections looking currently like they're going to be pretty terrible for Labour in England. But of course, they're also crucial elections for the SNP in Scotland. This is the state of play behind me from polling from from by More in Common. And the SNP puts in a a strong performance, 56 seats.

[00:18:56]But they're nine, I think it is. Yes, there we go. Nine short of majority.

[00:19:01]Uh and even with a coalition uh with the Greens, it wouldn't be enough. And Nicola, the 2024 general election was a disaster for the SNP. So, how surprised are you by these pretty positive results? I mean, I should say this is one of the very few polls in recent weeks that hasn't shown the SNP winning a majority. So, don't rule that out. I think it's very much game on if the SNP if we as the SNP can motivate our supporters uh to come out to vote, then I think it is highly likely um that John Swinney can pull off what is a very, very difficult uh feat of of winning a majority. And you know, it is the one way in Scotland to make sure that Reform and Nigel Farage don't get a foothold in the Scottish Parliament or pull the strings of who might be the next government. So, you know, I uh obviously, as a former leader of the SNP, think the SNP deserves that strength. Uh I don't take anything for granted, but you know, I also think it's a reflection of, you know, the disarray amongst the opposition parties in Scotland. But we'll see what plays out in a couple of weeks.

[00:20:03]>> But isn't the reality that this SNP success is at least uh partly about the problems that the Labour government and the unpopularity of the Labour government is having nationally?

[00:20:12]>> Yeah, of course. I mean, look, the strength of any party in an election is partly down to the attributes and the positive characteristics and record of but also reflection on the parties that are in opposition to it. So, it's a combination of those things for the SNP, but you know, any party that is polling as strongly as the SNP after almost 20 years in government. And I know I'm biased, but it does deserve some credit for that. And, you know, that doesn't happen by accident. It happens because the party still retains the trust of a significant chunk of the Scottish electorate. And then Reform is also doing quite well. We'll talk about them in a minute, but it's not all good news for the SNP. Like you say, being in power for almost 20 years, um and certainly people in Scotland have some quite strong views against the SNP as well as for. This exclusive polling shows us perceptions of each party's brand, and you can see that fewer than half of Scots think the SNP, this is the yellow hexagon here, um is is a hexagon? I'm not very good on my numbers of sides. Um is is honest, competent, or can deal with Scotland's economic problems. But they are positive on questions of Scottish pride and standing up for Scotland. Now, you've always claimed that the SNP isn't just a party of uh about identity, but that's what people think, isn't it? Um no, I don't. I mean, has a long-term vision for Scotland, will stand up for Scotland. I mean, these are important attributes. Um and, you know, yes, the SNP's been in power for 20 years. You know, with any longevity in office like that, you'll have been many, many things the party's proud of and people think are positive. And there'll be, you know, mistakes and things that haven't gone well that people will have a less positive view of. But you can't get away from the fact that, you know, 20 years on, I don't think you'll find anybody in Scotland that would bet against the SNP continuing to be in government. And I think that's got as I say, the party's got to get some considerable credit for that. And, you know, there's a wider point about the UK here, that it is likely after May the 7th that Wales, Scotland, and as is the case right now, Northern Ireland will be led by nationalist governments and nationalist First Ministers. And that poses massive questions for the future of the constitutional question. But look at this, Reform is the party that most people see as representing change. SNP is obviously in power in Scotland.

[00:22:26]Labour is in power in London. Can you understand why? Um yeah, I I I don't think it's justified, but you know, when people are struggling with the cost of living, when people are frustrated with some of the stuff we've just been talking about, then they will look for perhaps a party that's not been around as long and and, you know, want to believe that it offers change. I don't think Reform does. And although Reform are doing better than I would like to see them do in Scotland, they're not doing as well in Scotland as in other parts of the UK. And I think again, that is down to the fact that there is a sense that although the SNP's a government of long standing, it's still the party and a government that people have most confidence in in terms of continuing to deliver the positive change that that they want for the country.

[00:23:11]>> all three of these parties poll negatively on many of these metrics. You can see them down this end, representing change, competency, economic competency, honesty, and so on. Is this just the new norm in politics, this sort of negativity? Well, maybe it is. I I feel as if I've slipped back into being SNP leader here and find it I don't but, you know, I think that apart from this one here, which I I don't have my specs on, um but the only party, you know, above the the line there is is yellow. Sure.

[00:23:39]Sure. But But yeah, I think we do I think we do live in that. And that concerns me. I think it's incumbent on all parties, including the SNP, not just to encourage people to choose the least worst option, but to encourage people to vote positively. And there's 2 weeks left of this campaign, and I hope to see certainly the SNP do that, to really make the positive case, which, you know, they are doing. But all parties to stop you know, the biggest issue, and I don't particularly like this, that has brought the Scottish campaign alive is whether Labour and Reform are going to do some kind of grubby deal Sure. But But that it should be more than that. It should be about who is offering the positive vision for the future.

[00:24:21]>> I could just First of all, invite you back, but also I mean, I frankly I was absolutely staggered by the fact that fewer than half of voters in Scotland think that any of the parties are honest and competent. I mean, that that was shocking from the previous chart. But the thing I want to ask you, just because it slightly back bucks the sort of English trend, the Greens are flat in Scotland, but of course soaring in England. Why Why Why do you think the Greens aren't appealing in Scotland? I can't remember what their polling was in the last leads. I mean, you know, that's but the Greens are doing relatively well in Scotland compared Well, they don't seem not not according to this poll, weirdly. So, I I think the answer to that in in three words is SNP. You know, I I think the SNP offers the alternative on the progressive left of politics to Labour that the Greens do in England. Can I ask you, um Robert, we we were struck, or I was struck, Michael Michael Wofford was was the leader of the Reform in Scotland, was asked whether he would rule out Scott the the sorry, Reform ever backing uh a referendum on independence. And he didn't back out but he didn't rule out Reform backing a referendum. I mean Well, no, no, Robert, he said two things. He said firstly, the clue is in the name, is Reform UK. Mhm. So, Reform Reform is a unionist party.

[00:25:45]And I wasn't asking you a question about whether or not he would, you know, effectively vote to stay in the UK. I'm asking you a question about whether Reform would throw its weight behind a a poll happening, you know, a referendum happening. Well, the second thing that Malcolm said was that there seems to be no demand from people in Scotland. Sure, there are some people, OBVIOUSLY, >> [laughter] >> BUT BUT LET ME FINISH. BUT THE MOST MOST PEOPLE IN Scotland just want Scotland to be a success. And they want to focus on the economy and public services and what Reform is offering, which is different to say the Conservatives, which has generally been a one-issue party in Scotland, focusing purely on unionism. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. Is that we also actually want to get the economy of Scotland going What's been the biggest drag on the Scottish economy, the UK economy over the past few years? Brexit, which was imposed on Scotland against our will. We get taken out of the European Union because we're not independent. You know, what's been the second biggest drag? Austerity, again imposed on Scotland against our will.

[00:26:46]There's absolutely no way the majority of taxpayers in Scotland the majority of taxpayers in Scotland pay less tax than they DO IN ENGLAND.

[00:26:56]>> [laughter] >> I THINK YOU SHOULD JUST LEAVE IT TO THE TWO OF US.

[00:27:03]>> [gasps and laughter] >> ALL RIGHT, ROBERT, um and and everyone, thank you. Um regicide appears to come naturally to the Tories, but not to Labour. You can see that in this chart.

[00:27:12]It shows how long different Prime Ministers lasted in office and how they ended up out of a job. Now, Harold Wilson, Anthony Blair, are the only post-war Labour PMs to resign. The rest lost elections. But when it comes to the Tories, Thatcher was driven out, Cameron left after the referendum, and in recent years, May, Johnson, and Truss were all forced out by their party. Pushing out Starmer would be tough under Labour's rules, even if they knew who might take over, and wouldn't necessarily be true to the party's character, but might that change?

[00:27:49]Now, one minister uh told me that Starmer's departure is already baked in by MPs. It's just a matter of how much pain they can put up with before they act. But it's also unclear who will take over. And to Lorna, Andy Burnham, Wes Streeting are all favorites, but each has their own hurdles. Burnham has been pictured visiting Rayner. Their allies deny to me that they were plotting, but they do admit that they discussed the leadership and the state of the Labour party. I mean, you would, wouldn't you, Robert?

[00:28:18]I mean, do you think they're >> [laughter] >> Do you think they're talking about anything else at the moment? Now, um this was uh something that I thought about ringing up with the cabinet minister, Nick Nick Thomas-Symonds, uh but in fact, we concentrated mainly on the furore over the vetting of Peter Mandelson. Now, I pointed out that a string of former senior civil servants, including the former cabinet secretary, Mark Sedwill, had called for Starmer to reinstate Ollie Robbins. And I asked him, is the Is the I mean, would the Prime Minister take their advice?

[00:28:49]No, I don't I don't think that's uh possible. Let me just explain why that is, because uh Ollie Robbins unquestionably had decades of really distinguished public service, highly professional, person of integrity. But there was an issue with a judgment that was made. That point about the vetting, the developed vetting process, what they found, the recommendation they made, was never communicated to me and was not communicated to ministers across government either at the time, back in January of 2025, nor on a number of subsequent >> I just need to ask you about that. Ollie Robbins says that the system is that it's the Foreign Office who approves, they take advice from UK security vetting, and that he had no idea about this traffic light system that you keep going on about. So, how could he tell you the traffic light system given he just followed what he thought was actually years and years of custom and practice? Well, because my officials in the cabinet office have indeed brought this to light. But that was subsequently >> have gone through a process and have then taken a decision to tell the Prime Minister and it has become available to ministers. So, But what is the Prime Minister's criticism of Olly Robbins? That he didn't ask his own officials the right questions? Is that Is that the criticism? That that vetting recommendation, as a consequence of the process that UK security vetting had gone through >> said he didn't know about it. was not drawn to the Prime Minister's attention prior to Peter Mandelson taking up the role >> Okay, so And on numerous And it's not It's not just then, Robin. This is really important because I take my responsibilities to the House of Commons really seriously. I always question officials and that was not brought to the attention of ministers. It seems to me that the problem that people have is they see the Prime Minister saying effectively to the guy who ran the Foreign Office who he's sacked, "Why didn't you ask more questions and then give me the information?" But the criticism everybody makes about the Prime Minister when he appointed Mandelson is he didn't ask enough questions. Well, the Prime Minister did ask questions of the deep state prior to >> if because if he because if he'd asked the right questions, presumably he wouldn't have appointed Mandelson in the first place. Well, hang on. Let me just say though in relation to Olly Robbins just for a moment, the former now former permanent under secretary of the Foreign Office. You cannot have a situation of somebody in that role who does not command the confidence of the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister. That is an untenable position. But do you do you think the country has confidence in a Prime Minister who appoints Peter Mandelson despite being given a paper by the Cabinet Office spelling out so much of what was wrong with the appointment?

[00:31:42]The Prime Minister has apologized for this. He's apologized quite rightly to Epstein's victims for getting this wrong. But that isn't to suggest any Prime Minister is infallible. I have been told that the new Cabinet Secretary, Antonia Romeo, did advise the Prime Minister not to sack Robbins. Why didn't he take his advice?

[00:32:06]Uh I I've no idea about advice that may may not be given by the existing Cabinet Secretary, but what I'm saying certainly is this.

[00:32:14]You cannot have a situation in government where neither the Foreign Secretary nor the Prime Minister have confidence in the most senior official in the Foreign Office. That is untenable. That cannot continue and that's why we are where we are. Since the Prime Minister was elected, he has sacked something like nine or 10 of his most senior officials. What's wrong with a Prime Minister who can't keep a stable team?

[00:32:40]Well, look, I don't accept that he can't keep a stable team and what I would say is this. But that's just described facts to you. You You can't describe black as white. That's what happened.

[00:32:51]Well, look, in modern politics, we do, I'm afraid, >> this is unprecedented.

[00:32:57]No, let let me just say this because you talk about things being unprecedented.

[00:33:01]The Prime Minister is extraordinarily resilient. He's one of the most resilient people I've ever met, but the Labour Party is resilient as well, Robert. And our general election victories have always been very hard won, but also our achievements in government have always been very hard won. From Take this government from the private Well, the pains taking work under on the EU UK Talking about Talking about resilience Talking But talking about resilience, we've got a YouGov poll and I can't imagine this will do anything but shock you that shows that You can look it up You can look up there. 62% of British people and actually a third of Labour Party supporters say that you are either more sleazy and disreputable than the last Tory government or the same. 62% saying You're either more as as sleazy as the last Tory government.

[00:33:48]That's devastating for a party that was elected to clean up politics.

[00:33:54]But, Robert, you look at what we we have done for the first time >> the British people are wrong? Well, the British people will pass their judgment on this government at the end of the parliamentary term and quite right that they do.

[00:34:07]>> Well, they're going to pass judgment in just a couple of weeks' time.

[00:34:09]>> then we have people out there for the Labour Party and for the government, excellent councilors, excellent people on the devolved administrations campaigning now. Yes, you're absolutely right. But I would also point to actions we've taken, things like Solar Magnus, the Prime Minister's independent advisor on ethics now has the independent power to actually initiate his own investigations.

[00:34:28]We are looking We've created the ethics and integrity commission. We are taking measures to clean up politics.

[00:34:36]British people at the moment, sadly for you, don't seem to be watching or listening.

[00:34:40]Nick, lovely to see you as always. Thank you so much for coming Thank you. And I know you're you're occasionally out there not in the sense cleaning up the Prime Minister's mess, but I You have all my sympathy cuz he does ask you to do it quite a lot. I come on your show with the achievements of the government as well, not least on UK EU, Robert.

[00:34:57]Very good to see you. Thank you.

[00:34:59]Right, I am now going to move the conversation on a bit though to cost of living. We had the inflation today up again, 3.3%. Trump's war is pushing up the cost of living. Um before you actually joined the Reform Party, Nigel Farage stood up and said these settle reform councils were going to cut council tax. They haven't.

[00:35:19]Council tax has gone up in all of them.

[00:35:20]They were supposed to be the model of how efficient you would be in government. It's all going wrong.

[00:35:24]Well, he never actually said that reform councils would cut council tax. Well, it sounded like Well, well, he didn't say that. He didn't say that.

[00:35:33]What did he say? Uh he said that we would keep council tax as low as possible and that's exactly >> out it's not That's not really low cuz they It's gone up by about 4% Well, you're right. However, statistically, you'll have lower council tax if you're in a Reform led area than you will if you're in a Labour or or a Conservative area. Well, it's it's not easy, is it? Because you've got these statutory services like children's and adult social care that are all required by central government. Well, but what is point. No, of course, but but my point is that within 11 months, Reform councils have found sufficient savings that they are increasing council tax for sure, but less than all those other councils in the other parties, many of which have been run by the same party for 5, 10, 15 years. And so, if we can do that in 11 months, imagine what we'll be able to do in the years to come.

[00:36:19]Uh well, you you've also had more turnover of councilors than poor old Keir Starmer has of senior officials. I'm not so sure about Well, I don't I don't know about that. I mean, this this is this is Trump won in terms of officials being fired.

[00:36:32]But that if you look at the the progress that Reform has made in such a short period of time, it's actually incredible and I am confident that you'll see after May the 2nd that the Reform is basically the only national party doing what in Scotland, in Wales, in England, the big Labour cities and towns and in the shire counties like Essex and Norfolk and so forth. And that is a tremendous achievement in a short period. I'm going to come on in a minute to the potential advantages of more oil and gas being extracted from the North Sea in terms of jobs and taxes, but it will still leave British people totally vulnerable to the ups and downs of the world price. Well, that's not That's not That's not necessarily You're actually against self-sufficiency in energy, aren't you? Which is which is, you know, No, no, no, no. You are against self-sufficiency. You are against the transition to nuclear and wind and No, no, no, no, no. That's not That's not correct, Robert. We We want to make use of every last drop of our own natural resources. So, that means drilling in the North Sea, unlike the SNP and and Ed Miliband fully backing But you you you accept that prices. Well, it can. It can. Uh it's possible, for example, for gas to be sold to a domestic market in the UK. We haven't done that historically. So so you're going to interfere with the free market and you would you would not allow companies to sell at the world price. Is that what you're saying? You wouldn't allow companies to sell at the world price. Is that You can make a domestic market for gas as the United States does, as individual states within the US do and many big experts in the field like Dieter Helm, for example, have suggested the UK could do that. We are very strongly pro-nuclear, unlike the SNP again. We want to build more nuclear reactors and to build them faster and cheaper than has happened in recent times when hardly being built at all. Uh we're not anti-renewables, you know, per se. We just don't want to have a gravy train where subsidies are enriching people, most of whom are actually international investors, to go and cover the countryside in solar farms or do onshore wind. But we want to We want to We want to mix We want an energy mix and we want to bring down people's bills. That's I've got to bring it in because it's expensive and unreliable energy. Um because I've actually got to put the the the the North Sea point to you. Many Scottish people would like to see Rosebank and Jackdaw, the gas and oil fields exploited. What do you think?

[00:38:48]Well, I'm not in the hot seat taking these decisions anymore, so I'll start with that. I think there's a lot of wishful thinking in this debate. If we, you know, extracted every last drop from the North Sea, it's not going to give us security of supply. It's about 2% of UK demand, probably less than that over the next decade. As you rightly say, it doesn't bring down energy prices because what 80% of the oil is already exported.

[00:39:10]Gas is traded on the open market Nick, can you stop talking but you haven't answered my question about Jackdaw and Rosebank? I Well, the damage it does to the climate is is known. I think the advantages in terms of price and security of supply are wishful thinking, but here's the point. But tax and jobs.

[00:39:26]>> here's the point I think is really important and it's an opportunity cost point because, you know, capital money, skilled labor are not infinite. Every pound and every skilled worker that is developing new oil and gas is not available at to develop renewables.

[00:39:44]And the people who will lose out if we don't accelerate >> you're saying you're still against Rosebank and Jackdaw.

[00:39:48]>> Well, I I I think the case has not been made. That's my view.

[00:39:51]>> cuz now I've got to ask Pepper about front pages. Yeah, well, we've got uh I think just the I in is about to come up on our screen, which is telling us that uh Streeting allies now open to an Angela Rayner pact. Is Is that the most shocking story you've ever seen? Here we go. Uh >> [laughter] >> Oh, no, that's not what we That's not the right one there.

[00:40:09]New studio new screen here. Something's not going quite right. I'll let you know when But anyway, but but I mean that that that that was inevitable that was inevitable, wasn't it? Streeter and Streeting and Rayner doing a deal, wasn't it? Yeah, uh I think well, from Streeting's point of view, he's not going to win a Labour leadership contest because the party uh is too far of the left of him. So, I think any contest would be him wanting to join Rayner's rather than the other way around. And it is definitely the case >> would be his condition? What What What would he want? Well, I think it probably would be a job, um a big job. Oh, my goodness.

[00:40:37]What's the second biggest job in government? Chancellor. Um Angela Rayner, however, I think knows that she needs somebody. She can't just go on her own. She's quite marmite. She uh is worried about She'll be worried about um unsettling the markets. And she recognizes that she would be somebody right >> quickly cuz we're almost out of time. Is there any way Burnham can get back in before the leadership contest?

[00:40:58]It depends whether the leadership contest is >> no, but I but but yeah, you haven't answered my question.

[00:41:03]>> If Keir Starmer stands down, then I think that there'd be agreement for him to come back. But but if Starmer was wanting to fight that contest, I think there's not a chance he'd want Andy Burnham back in Parliament.

[00:41:14]Fascinating. Thank you so much to all of you. Fascinating great great show.

[00:41:17]That's it. Now, today is our first relaunch in 8 years. Starmer's had Starmer's had about eight relaunches in just the past 1 year. Who do you think's going to survive longer? Goodbye.

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