The Revival High That Broke Us: Burnout From Charismatic Worship | Podcast Episode 661

[00:00:07][music] [music] [music] [music] >> Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend Franny Nance, former member of Charismania.

[00:00:48]Franny, I've been talking to you for I don't know how many weeks it's been now and each time I talk to you I think back to the way it was whenever I was growing up because growing up we had these experiences that we felt something, something was there. You felt like it was a move of God or, you know, when you're in your teenagers you think, "Oh my gosh, this is this is magic. What's happening here?"

[00:01:12]And [snorts] then after you get a little bit older, even while you're still in it, it changes. Your experience and your perception of those experiences change but then after you leave and you start to detangle all the mess that was there, you start to wonder, "Okay, how much of it was God? How much of it was manipulation? How much of it was just theatrics?"

[00:01:32]And the more I dive into some of the new modern new apostolic reformation churches and the modern charismatic movement, I start to wonder was there any God or how much of it was theatrics and I wanted to talk this with over with you and try to I don't know, try to untangle the mess of what it's like to experience quote unquote God in these modern services.

[00:01:57]>> It's funny cuz like you were saying you were raised in it, so so was I. So that's all I knew.

[00:02:03]And you know, my parents were you know revival junkies or whatever. So it was like we're going to Toronto for spring break, you know, for the Toronto Blessing. We're going to Morningstar. We used to live like not too far away from there, so we could drive.

[00:02:21]Um and it was always just like long worship sessions that would sort of like get you, you know, entering the throne room. All that language, you know, we're going to enter the throne room, going into the third heaven. It's just like all these buzzwords.

[00:02:38]Um so yeah, I don't know. Like looking back, you know, in my own healing process and and growth and learning I've had to sort of like, well what what was that? Like was that deliverance? Was that that experience?

[00:02:57]Like, you know, and I've I've I've gone back and looked. I'm thinking like have I seen a healing?

[00:03:02]Have I seen, you know, like I've seen people like manifest, you know, but have I seen like an actual like limb grow or have, you know, this person that went through deliverance well, they they still have the same problem or I don't know. Like we haven't followed up with them. So I in in my own personal life, it's like, well I went to this Todd Bentley conference and you know, he's screaming fire.

[00:03:29]It's like and we're all and I'm shaking and screaming, you know. And so I'm like, what was that? And I think a lot of times, too, it's hard like as a human you don't really want to admit that maybe it wasn't God like that it I was manipulated.

[00:03:46]Um and I, you know, I was vulnerable and opened myself up to that and then allowed you know, that to happen. And I I think too, I think a lot of you know, people get offended by that, and I'm not I'm not saying that your experience wasn't of God, or whatever, inauthentic. Like, it's probably real. I guess my challenge is to those folks, like, you know, was it God? I don't know. I just like looking at the mechanism of it. Like, wo Yeah, it's you're in these services, and so they tell you, like, "Oh, that's the power of God."

[00:04:25]Well, no, I mean, and so you just buy it. You're like, "Oh, okay. Well, if they said it's the power of God, it's this, you know, person, whatever." But, if you actually And then if you question it, like, you're you might have a demon.

[00:04:36]Like, I think that's how a lot of these things get you trapped. It's like, "I can't ask questions, like, well, what happened to me?" It's like, "I don't I don't even know what that was." And it's like, uh maybe that wasn't God. Oh, well, then it was demonic. Well, I don't really want to be labeled as demonic. So, like, and also, if you are manifesting, and you know, wildly worshipping, these um systems, like, these churches, ministries, they really reward people.

[00:05:02]The more theatrical, the more dramatic, the more, you know, um wild you are, like, you are rewarded, you know, with like, "Wow, that person is really close to God." Or, "You know, look at that." Like, this the you know, I I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly, but I just think for me, growing up in it, I was conditioned to believe that, like, we stay we worship, we get in these long like worship sessions, and you're, you know, crying out, and you're desperate, and you're just you're opening yourself up. And so, yeah, these do you do get whipped up into like an emotional frenzy. And then you have a a preacher preaching, and telling you that this is God, and like, and so there were people that were like, I don't feel anything. Like I don't so I guess maybe God doesn't love me because I'm not I'm not feeling anything, you know, like maybe they're not easily manipulated. So they're like, I'm not feeling anything.

[00:06:00]>> Yeah, it's such a strange and unusual question. I have re-examined all of it from a from all different types of perspectives, from a historical perspective, psychological, and ironically, a rock and roll concert kind of changed my mind.

[00:06:17]>> [laughter] >> And you're going to laugh at me. I'm not going to give the name of the group, but I grew up listening to nothing but the old 1950s and 1960s gospel, which was outdated and no fun, and I I did enjoy playing it, but after I started to experience real music, I was like, I want to go hear something different. And so I I didn't know the names of any of these groups, ironically. There were some groups that were locally and coming to Louisville in this big convention center. So I got some tickets to a group that I've never heard just to go hear them.

[00:06:49]I I went there. I think I took the I think I took a couple of my boys with me. I don't think my wife was there, but it was a band and you'd laugh at me if you heard the name, but I have to say the name.

[00:07:01]>> [laughter] >> I'm not not going to say it. The The emotion, the hype, the euphoria, just the experience of being there, I was on cloud nine. This was This was one of the greatest moments of my life.

[00:07:14]While I'm there, and then towards I don't know, towards the end of it as I'm getting tired, I'm kind of like, it's okay. This is This is nothing like I've ever heard before. Then after I left, I started listening to to that same band on Spotify, you know, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not sure I really like these songs.

[00:07:33]>> [laughter] >> Although they did have a couple good ones, but the moral of the story [clears throat] is this, while I was there in this massive crowd of people, everybody's clapping, They're all in this, you know, euphoria. They're they're bringing to you an emotion that you can't really contain. And that's how that's how cloud crowd pleasers do. They That's the part of the charismatic personality is somebody who can engage with the crowd and get them all excited.

[00:08:01]Well, when you're in that type of environment, it can be a rock and roll concert. It can be a Christian meeting, you know, an a Christian event. You're going to experience the same thing no matter what.

[00:08:12]And so, after that, I started critically analyzing every service that I went to at every church that I went to.

[00:08:21]And I'd go into a service and instead of just getting into the crowd-pleasing hype, even at whether it was a small crowd or a big crowd, I started to instead think about, okay, what is their technique?

[00:08:34]>> [laughter] >> How are How are they toying with my head? And [snorts] when you do this, it changes the service entirely. The point I'm trying to make is if it were the rock and roll god, I would be in there believing God has just come down in our midst, right? And the same way with the Christian services, I would be there like, oh my gosh, I feel it. I feel the power going through me.

[00:08:56]But it's not really that so much as it is the connection to other humans that you're feeling.

[00:09:01]And yes, maybe that could be God, but in my experience, this was more of a I don't know, it's more of a psychology-based presence and the stage presence that they were doing.

[00:09:13]>> No, I would 100% agree with that. I think just based on, you know, Benny Hinn services, um, and yeah, just the the various and it just the church the format itself, um, is and I you know, I've had to like question that, too, like, um, >> [snorts] >> the dark you know, the dark room, the atmosphere, they're preparing it. And I I think a lot of times, too, it's it's so built into the system, though. It's like everything is is, quote unquote, godly. It's like, "Oh, no, well, we're preparing the atmosphere for, you know, God to come down or something like that." And it's like, "Well, you're just preparing a concert, you know, for for people to come." And it's like, um, you know, a lot of times, too, if we'd be at a church and the worship wasn't that great, you know, my parents like, "This church is dead. We need to leave." Or or whatever. Um, and I I do remember, like, growing up, it was always like really amazing, like, if the pastor would get up and say, you know, "We're just going to continue to worship today. I feel like the Holy Spirit's telling us just to worship."

[00:10:20]And so, like, the whole service would just be worship. And, you know, I remember my parents loved that so much.

[00:10:26]But then I'm thinking like, "Well, they almost do this every service." It's like, so if I was a pastor, it's like, I don't have to prepare anything. I can just say like, "Oh, the Holy Spirit's telling me that we need to continue to worship." And you just like have a worship service the whole time. Um, so, yeah, but I I guess I have in this, like, I I my brain looks for patterns. That's just how, you know, I I I think that's interesting. I like looking at patterns. That's why I like history. That's why I studied it. And so, like, even in my own experience and through, like, church or religion, I'm just curious like looking at patterns.

[00:11:01]And so, someone who is in another church, or excuse me, not church, but just a different religion, or I've honestly seen the same patterns in my research in Charismania as the New Age movement, which has been really interesting to me.

[00:11:19]People who are, you know, in the New Age, like, self-help, um, you know, guru type, you know, movement or whatever, talk about the same experiences, like, the same manifestations, the same type of like clearing your mind, like entering in, clearing your mind. And so, I you remember like I would bring that up. I'm like, "Well, this person and they're like, "Well, that's counterfeit. That's not of God, you know, this is of God."

[00:11:46]I'm like, "Well, who is deciding that?

[00:11:47]Like you know, it's like uh so then for for me like as a young person trying to even There's no like uh source of truth. Like there's no um what am I trying to think? Like this is the source of truth. So, like you know, this experience is the same as in the church is the same as like this experience this person has as like, you know, in yoga or something like that. But like I'm told that that's evil, but this is not even though it's the same thing.

[00:12:20]Um and it's like, "Well, that's a demon manifesting, but this is the power of God manifesting on you." And so, there's no It's just It's always changing. It's always based on, you know, the people in power, the person in charge.

[00:12:33]Um and if you ask too many questions, well, then you must have a demon, too, or you don't have faith or or whatever.

[00:12:39]And so, um yeah, you keep yourself trapped that way. But also, I I I I think too in these services as well, like I mean, that's how yeah, they get you you lower your inhibitions. You go in already like a lot of these people are looking for healing. You know, they've got like hard things in their life going on. And so, people want answers. They want um healing. They want a miracle. And a lot of these play They promise you miracles.

[00:13:12]Um they all promise you miracles. You know, just enter in.

[00:13:16]You know, um just worship, give your all, or whatever. And so, if you think about that like outside of like a religious church, if you are I don't know, like if a government leader is telling you to like just just you know open your mind like open your heart to what I have to say or whatever like you know a lot of people would start questioning that but I think in church you're just like oh well you know I trust this person this leader and this minister and they're anointed and you know you know my pastor has brought this itinerant minister in to speak and >> [snorts] >> I'm I'm conditioned now you know like to when I come to church and they start lowering the music the the lights and start like playing the music and the drum starts going and you know like that we go up to the altar we all you know open our hearts and like that's what I've been taught that that is how you um worship God and and surrender yourself to him and and then your your inhibitions are lowered and so you're kind of ready to absorb whatever your you're told or um yeah and so people do get whipped up there are like many studies like you know um I mean anyone can can research it or look it up where it's like this group mob mentality of just like where everyone's getting whipped up and they're all like you know crying or shaking you know and people like oh they're shaking under the power of God and it's like well no like I I I just no they're all manipulated it's like and they lowered their inhibitions and are you know sort of whipped up in this group think >> Well an interesting part about that a lot of people who attend these types of services are filled with anxiety either from having been under spiritual abuse or simply by life you know and there is there are many studies that talk about how meditation can help calm your anxiety and it it works I've done it myself when you get into one of these services and they start doing the prayer meditation you actually start to feel better. So, you can be in the group and you can start to feel better. Does that mean that it's God? Well, maybe your meditation is on God, but at the same time, you could go to one of the local, [clears throat] I don't know, meditation classes and our YMCA has some various classes. We could go do something like this and we could feel some of the same feeling. Does that mean it's from God at the YMCA? I don't know. But, for me, the bigger question is whenever they're doing this and they're taking things that you can you can critically examine by comparing to the outside world, the non-Christian world, and you can have some of the same emotions, same experiences, same hype, but they tell you things in these meetings like, "You're only going to find that stuff here. You're only going to feel like this here. God is moving here. God's not moving in the church down the street."

[00:16:15]Well, the problem is I started hearing these things and I went to the church down the street.

[00:16:19]>> [laughter] >> I start I start to feel it and I'm like, "Well, wait a minute." And especially the Catholic church, they're cold and formal in the Catholic church and they all bow down to the Pope. That's that's what we hear from at least from the services that I grew up in. I've never been [snorts] to a Catholic service, but I'm I'm certain from talking to other Catholics, they go through the same motions. So, they're going to feel the same thing and to a Catholic, they'll say, "Well, I feel God in our services." And it's no different than a Protestant feeling God. The question really comes down to are you actually are you actually making a move of God happen when you do this or are you just using a tool that God gave humanity to help calm themselves and to help, you know, become a better person?

[00:17:04]Because in the end, that's really that's really what it should be about.

[00:17:08]However, whenever you're in some of the modern charismatic movements, they they put a they stress an urgency in most of the revivals. So, they'll start out with this meditation feeling this calm welcoming feeling, then they get into the meat and the heart of the subject matter, which raises your anxiety more, and then at the end of it there's this call to Jesus that brings you back into the meditation state.

[00:17:34]This is something that I analyzed crazy analytic analysis through different services that I'm looking at, different movements, and they all match that same pattern. Because if you can bring the heart up to this, I don't know, this anxious state and your heart's pounding from the things they're saying, then suddenly the altar call or however however the church does it or the event, [clears throat] well, you start to feel that peace and suddenly, "Oh my gosh, the spirit has moved down upon us. We're blessed." And you you listen to the speaker doing this kind of thing.

[00:18:08]In the end for me, it's really just a crowd manipulation tool, but what I have found to be odd, some of the speakers, the ministers, and evangelists, they're just so accustomed to doing it, I don't think that they realize that it is having that effect on their crowds.

[00:18:25]>> I told my husband once, um again, cuz he didn't grow up in this and so it's just very foreign to him. Um and we did try to attend a non-denominational church when we moved out here. I was like, "Well, let's just try. They have like a great kids program." Um but it was when you go in, the lights dim and then they have like they have incredible musicians at the church. Like and they or they look pretty, you know, they sound amazing and the music is incredible.

[00:18:56]But I'm sitting there and it's loud and like you can hear the drum banging and like everyone's there and it's like the worship leader's like, "Enter in. Enter in." Like "Give your heart to God, you know, God wants to heal you. God loves you." Da da da. And I I think that the worship leader is genuine, like but that's how he's been trained, you know, like he's a worship leader. Like that's how in the charismatic movement, like I this is how I'm going to drum you up like to get you whether he genuinely means it or whatever. Um but I I was telling my husband it's like I can't be in this because it's almost like an addict, like it's like I can't be around this emotional hype or whatever because it's it's not healthy for me because I don't trust like what feelings, like the kind of feelings that it elicits in me.

[00:19:48]And I was telling my husband I was like, you know, um I I could be like in these environments like if I didn't have ethics or conscience, like I could be the next like I could say I'm a prophet. Like you you can. Like I grew up in it, I've been around it enough to know. I like interned for the itinerant minister, seen it. Like I I am I'm also like hyper vigilant like this is my own background or whatever. Like I can use the lingo. I and could say like, you know, let me pray for you like and say it in the the cadence that that they have said that you know, I have this prophetic word or I'm feeling that the Lord is telling me this or that. Um and I I could abuse like that's how these people abuse power. It's like you attract in like broken people or whatever people that want to feel special that you know, you get a lot of attention from being anointed by God or whatever or like you get a high off of like, wow, I I prophesied over this person. I laid hands on them and spent all this time like praying for these people and you know, for their healing or whatever. Um and then I mean it's it's just like any guru. Like, that's why I I say it reminds me of influencers or gurus that you see on social media, you know, like that they have their platforms or whatever. Um it it's it's the same thing. Um and so, that's what I'm kind of when I'm saying like you look at patterns. It's like, well, who who put this person in charge and said that they were anointed by God? Like, this person is doing you know, the same things and we're giving a lot of like authority to this person. Like, you're opening yourself up to them. Um and in these environments with people who truly, you know, there are people who are really broken that they are desperate for healing. They, you know, they do have like mental illness. Um you know, there's or or whatnot. And so, they come into these environments being promised like you just need a touch from God.

[00:22:00]Like, God will heal you. You need a touch from God or whatever. And so, they do come in, they lower their inhibitions. And so, the there is that like atmosphere too that does kind of like pick up of like you sort of like go off the energy of other people and so, until the whole crowd is whipped up.

[00:22:19]I mean, it's the whole thing like group think when people talk about like the mob mentality, you know, or it's like all of a sudden everyone like, you freaks out and you know, what happened with this like piece in history? Like, I you know, I think about like sometimes with like mobs in the the South or actually all all across the country that you know, they all got whipped up and would uh un-alive a person. Um you know, just because the you know, one person accused them of something and then everyone, yeah, you just get it sucked into that.

[00:22:51]And so, it's the same thing, I think, with with Charismania.

[00:22:55]Um and in a lot of these services and I honestly, I'm try I'm trying not to be like you know jud- judgmental, but in the same time like I I really think that these this whole system itself and the whole like charismatic movement, these churches, these ministries, I think they're disingenuous. Like I think that it's unhelpful to I I mean, I know like a lot of people like, "Well, like I, you know, found freedom." I'm like, "Uh."

[00:23:26]I I just know, like, you know, I don't I don't think they're helpful. I don't think that I actually think it's it's pretty destructive and we're sort of like keeping a group of people in power with, you know, their their money, their power, or whatever, and then they choose like the next anointed leader, and then throw that person out or whatever. Um, and it just keeps the whole like grift and cycle going with people trapped and, you know, going to healing service after healing service. I remember there was a family friend of ours, their son had spina bifida, born with that.

[00:24:02]And they're believers, um, and I just remember the amount of healing services they went to and like Benny Hinn's or whatever when their son was young and it was like, you know, "God's going to heal him. I see him walking. I see him, you know, whatever." This is like back in the '90s.

[00:24:17]And I, you know, at one point, which I think was wise, the parents were like, "We're done." You know, like and they, you know, attended a a nice little Presbyterian church and they actually started a foundation for, you know, their son and other people that suffer with the same um illness or whatnot. And and I remember like people in our community judged them really harshly.

[00:24:42]Like, "Well, they just didn't want it.

[00:24:43]Like they didn't hold on long enough to have the faith that, you know, God said he was going to be healed." It's like, at some point like you can't keep like whipping your It's exhausting. That's what I'm try My point. You're going to service after service like, "I'm Okay, I'm praying hard like maybe my healing's now, like I need to hold on to my healing or my deliverance or, you know, the anointing or whatever God has for me. And I, you know, these parents, it's it's exhausting. It's like I have a kid with like special needs, so we got to live in the real world um and focus on and now and at the young man is still has spina bifida, but he went to college, he has a job, you know, it's like there is that versus a lot of times these movements like the Charismania, the NAR, these prophets, ministers, whatever, like they keep you trapped in this like cycle. You know, Benny Hinn wouldn't have a job if if people were actually healed. It's like if people were actually healed, he would not be in business, but that man is still in business because he knows how to he's charismatic, he knows how to sell a brand, like and people feel good when they go to his services and, you know, whatever. And when you come off the emotional high and you start to feel depressed, well, they have a word for that, too. They you're being oppressed by the devil. So, I need to go back to the service, another service, another minister to get another touch from God and get filled up again or whatever instead of like, well, let's look at the the root. What got me to start thinking outside the box is that um you know, I I have to live in the real world. I have a job. I'm I'm I'm married. Like I would like to have children, you know, I have kids now, but at the time and I have friendships with normal people. I want to keep those friendships, like help, like what do I do? Because I I can't keep going to all these like worship services, you know, looking for emotional healing or whatever it was.

[00:26:51]And it honestly was just like the boring answer.

[00:26:56]Which was like what is what is stable?

[00:27:00]Like what what is peaceful? What is just normal, you know? It's like I'm I'm not depressed. Like I just got myself whipped up into an emotional frenzy.

[00:27:10]Like let's move through this emotion.

[00:27:13]All right, we're good.

[00:27:15]>> Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter rain, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

[00:27:28]You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

[00:27:35]On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

[00:27:49]You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

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[00:28:14]>> What's interesting about it is I have had to study how bipolar disorder works.

[00:28:20]>> Hm.

[00:28:20]>> Um to try to help my family member.

[00:28:23]When you learn the ups and downs, the abs and flows, the highs and the lows, and start to apply that to the context of having been under indoctrination by a central figure of a cult, the two are are actually very similar.

[00:28:38]>> Mhm.

[00:28:38]>> Because you get up into this uh manic phase where everything is everything is God, everything is a demon trying to attack you, everything is making you anxious.

[00:28:49]And then there comes this lull after you you make peace with all of this, you go to church. Well, suddenly there comes a time whenever it's just boring. And I hate to say it, but boring is a natural human thing. You're supposed to have this, right? But when you're in this type of movement, you can't really have boring church. You have to have something.

[00:29:10]There has to be an enemy to fight.

[00:29:12]>> Yes.

[00:29:12]>> And when you're at when you're in a bipolar state, once you go through that boring phase, you're off of your manic phase, well now you start to drop into the depressive phase. So you get really deeply saddened, you get all of these heightened emotions, you start to feel just awful. You feel like something's wrong with you. And then you bounce back if you're in the bipolar realm. Well, in the religious realm, once you hit boring church, you're like, well God's not moving. What's wrong? And then you start to become depressed. God's not moving. I don't feel it in my life. I don't feel God. I must have done something wrong.

[00:29:45]And then you go down into the depressive phase. So in effect, what they're doing is they're introducing a bipolar-like mentality inside of your brain.

[00:29:55]And you can't just have a boring church, which is really odd now that I am out of this and I'm starting to think about it.

[00:30:03]Boring is a state that even in our world today, we've got so much entertainment and YouTube and I I can flip through channels on my TV. There's like 2,000 channels, man. There's never a moment I don't have something to entertain me, right? So whenever you're at that level of being entertained, you don't know how to process boring.

[00:30:25]>> Mhm.

[00:30:25]>> I remember when I was growing up, there were times that we would just sit in a chair and we might have a conversation, but we might also just sit there because boring was something that you every human should have. It brings your brings your brain down to a a point where it can start to process things.

[00:30:42]And in today's world, the children are are struggling because they don't have downtime to process. When the religious world, it's been that way for decades.

[00:30:51]People just are in that hype and in that movement. When you're doing this and your brain is not allowed to process, you also can't critically think because your brain gets so tired. And then you go back to church and it tires it out more.

[00:31:05]In the end, there are people I think who really suffer from actual mental health issues because they stay in this so long that their brain, which is a muscle, it starts to get tired and it can't really function in the same way that it did and in a normal boring church.

[00:31:21]>> Mhm. Yeah, no, that's true. It's funny.

[00:31:23]We've started going to just a local Episcopal church that's like right up we can walk to it or whatever. And it's my kids actually really like it cuz it's just the I mean, the people are so sweet. It's a bunch of older folks, but they like it because it's just the short service. It's the routine, you know, they have the you know, the bulletin that's like the whole service basically on there so you can you see, but I for me, there's something that I enjoy about that because it's like you know, it's it's a liturgy. It's you know, reading the Bible. It's a short message and then it's we do communion every um every week. And it just goes through the whole like on the night he was betrayed, you know, that whole thing. And so I think you know, a lot of people um that I talk to, they're like, "Why How are you still a Christian?" And I'm like, "It's been a long road." Um but I I think that there is you know, you can find I mean, again, no judgment towards people who are no longer believers, but I think that's what I was kind of looking for too, that's honestly led me to Dr. Steve Hassan or whatever.

[00:32:42]When I was sort of going through this deconstruction and sort of like what was this? Was I was in a cult my whole life?

[00:32:47]I'm like, you know, basically like it's, you know, wasn't I think it's hard for us because we're, you know, I'm like, well, I wasn't like a member of the People's Temple like Jim Jones or whatever. And that's how I think a lot of these charismatic churches do that as well. Like we're not a cult, you know, like you can leave anytime. It's like, hm.

[00:33:05]It's like you use the same tactics. But back to Dr. Hassan, I appreciated him because when he came out of the Moonies cult, which if you listen to his, which I know you guys were, colleagues or whatever, but like if you listen to his story, he has the same experiences like Carismania. You know, he talks about glossolalia or the music. That's what he said, he he says he misses the music the most [clears throat] from the Moonies.

[00:33:33]And this was he got out in the '70s. So I thought that was interesting. Like he's talked about the music and the community and and and that piece. But what encouraged me and you know, to continue on is that when he got out of the cult, he returned to his Jewish faith. And so I'm like, okay, you can be out of the cult like Carismania or whatever and you can still have a faith.

[00:33:56]Like that doesn't mean, you know, cuz I was sort of like, well, is there there no because I there are unexplainable things in the world. You know, God is is big if you believe in God. Like there's wonder, you know, there's mystery, whatever. And some of that we're not meant to know, you know, I don't I don't know. You can just enjoy it for what it is.

[00:34:14]And so that there has been a lot of me deconstructing, quote unquote, reconstructing and kind of sort of exploring and and finding that.

[00:34:24]But um it honestly has been getting well mentally. Like that that truly is it's I I relate so much to people who grew up inside of cults and then have stepped away and then it's kind of like what do I do now? Um and kind of figuring out what's truth, what's not, what was real, you know, what wasn't.

[00:34:52]And so where, you know, I have some good friends that they love good worship music and they feel that they connect to God that way, but they they don't they didn't experience what I did. They don't they didn't have that extreme charismania. So I'm like, well, that's good for you. I can't do that. I I cannot. Like because I don't trust what it does. It there is a level of mind control in that. And so there is this gray area I feel like I'm navigating with faith, um but also not getting sucked into that. And I really think if you you step back, I keep saying patterns.

[00:35:33]I I just I see it so much in in everything. You mentioned like just with not not being bored and, you know, there's always something going on to like stimulate you, whether it's on your phone or I recently took social media off my just completely um a couple months ago just because I'm like I I I can't it's it's too much. Like I'm I'm not bored or, you know, or thinking or I'm being influenced by that. It just made me think about like that's yeah, you don't ever give your brain a break. And I think growing up in this in that the charismatic church, you don't give your brain a a break. You don't like just Honestly, people don't have fun. Like they don't they you know, everything has to have a spiritual purpose or there's a spiritual intensity. It's this intensity I mean, IHOP was like that. It was like this you know, intensity like in the laboring in the place of prayer like fasting. Now we got to fast, you know, and there's always like you were saying you also mentioned this urgency and I think a lot of times these movements like the not move I keep saying movements. It's the NAR. It's all these and what irritates me too is when you say the NAR they like we're not NAR.

[00:36:48]Like this is no one wants to be accountable. Oh, we're not, you know, that wasn't us, you know, and that's how like this system has been structured cuz it's like we're not NAR. We don't claim that or you know, Shawn Bolz like he's not a part of us.

[00:37:01]Like it's like give me a break. Like you guys have hosted him and like made money off of him. So please, you know, now he doesn't serve your purpose. So now you're distancing yourself. Um but you see it now like just in the broader culture. Like I'm blown away by the influence that the NAR and the people within there have in our political system now, today. Like compared to you know, in the 90s when I was in high school again Lou Engle conference getting whipped up you know, like Jesus is coming back like you know, we need to you know, bring justice and do a silent prayer siege against this abortion clinic and you know, we have a curse on the land because of this and that and this and that. Um and they have a whole crowd of fervor, you know, whipped up and um these people they just need bodies and they use like especially they prey upon young people.

[00:38:00]They use the youth. They glorify youth.

[00:38:02]They use them um in order to serve their purposes, whatever that might be, whether they believe in their ministry or not.

[00:38:10]Um and they sort of prey on that and then when people like me get older and I'm like I'm exhausted, you know, like I you know, what happened? Like I I'm I don't even know like what way to think and then you feel like a big loser because you're like, well, I'm I'm not I didn't usher in the second coming of Christ and I'm not like having healings.

[00:38:32][clears throat] It's like I actually have to have a job and live in the world. Um Yeah, they don't if there's no there's no tools for that. They have no use for you anymore.

[00:38:42]Um and you I see that happening again where it's like think after what happened to Charlie Kirk was it was disturbing to me because I would start to see the same figures getting to the youth talking about persecution, you know, the second coming of Christ, we need revival and I'm just like, oh, here we go again. And so I think that's where in this I just I challenge people like just allow yourself for a minute to think who who benefits and, you know, look at the patterns of history and, you know, look at look at yourself and be okay with like asking questions like, well, what if I don't participate in this? I don't know.

[00:39:30]There's always like you're saying this is urgency. It's this life and death and I think that's how they keep you you you you stay stuck and you stay trapped and then the cycle keeps going, they keep making money, you know, they keep their power um and until the next round or the next cycle um comes up. But I do find it interesting, especially the people you've had on your podcast. It's the same same characters. Cheon, Lou Engle, you know, the Bethel people, the you know, Vineyard, whatever it is.

[00:40:00]It's just like, gosh, there's those names again.

[00:40:03]>> So I'm going to embarrass myself just a little bit.

[00:40:05]>> [laughter] >> I um I did something stupid a few years back and I was trying to get healthy and I I did actually lose quite a bit of weight and I was fighting pre-diabetes.

[00:40:17]I got a I set up a treadmill desk and so I would walk on my desk and I had my keyboard set up, my monitor, and I was walking and reading about other people who are doing the same thing. It was like this get energized, get active kind of thing. And there's this website that talked about people who were walking enough steps on the treadmill that they had actually walked around the length of the globe multiple times. And I'm like, "Wow, I want to be this person." So I set it for, you know, you set it for a low mileage per hour.

[00:40:50]It's like 1 or 2 miles an hour. And then you just walk. [clears throat] So I was walking 6, 7 hours a day, which [laughter] which wasn't the right way to do this.

[00:40:58]If you're going to do this, don't do what I did.

[00:41:01]So I'm walking 6 or 7 hours a day and, you know, first week I I feel fine. I'm pretty tired actually after I'm done.

[00:41:09]But after about 2 or 3 weeks, I was walking one day and I felt odd. It didn't feel like there was any injury, but [snorts] I felt odd early on, like 1 hour into it. And I went to full 6 hours, I think it was. And after 6 hours, I'm walking the whole time. I did, you know, most of my work. And then I turned the treadmill off and stepped down. Whenever I did, I fell flat on my face.

[00:41:33]My legs actually couldn't hold my body up.

[00:41:36]>> [laughter] >> And I live in a I work downstairs, so I was walking upstairs. I couldn't make it up the stairs. I actually had to take a knee and it was difficult.

[00:41:47]And [clears throat] I learned real quickly that your body can take a lot of pain and a lot of abuse and you may not even know that it's happening if it's happening very, very gradually. So that's what happened to me. I think I tore one of my calf muscles.

[00:42:03]And so it took [clears throat] a long time to heal, but I learned in that moment not to do this. Don't let your body go slowly and slowly endure pain until you you can't make it through.

[00:42:15]Ironically, as I was processing all of this, I had the same type of thing happen to me from a mental perspective. The first time I met Dr. Steven Hassan, I was going through the decompression phase. Whenever I first started working with him, and I was working with him for somebody else, not for me. So, I'm learning through him how to help other people and kind of piecing all of this together as I'm going.

[00:42:42]I was going through a decompression phase because my body, my mind was doing what my body did on the treadmill. I had gradually through 37 years of my life been indoctrinated, been taught this urgency, taught this fear, condemnation, all of the things that they teach you in these movements.

[00:43:01]I did it for so long, I didn't realize the effect it was having on me mentally.

[00:43:06]I was I was a mental wreck, man.

[00:43:09]>> [laughter] >> And whenever you leave this, what he describes leaving the Moonies was severe and extreme, but I started to realize I had the same thing just in different ways and at different levels. I was suffering the confusion, the grief, the betrayal.

[00:43:25]You felt shame for leaving. You felt The The biggest one for me, you you felt like you had a loss of identity because your identity was tied to that group.

[00:43:34]And it was in the moment that I discovered that tie, that connection between Okay, my identity wasn't mine. It was given to this group, and I started to >> [snorts] >> just entangle my identity within the group so that I'm not when I leave, I'm not the same person anymore. And the group is not the same group because it's all kind of woven together.

[00:43:58]And I thought about this multiple times. We've We tried a few different churches after leaving. And I'd go to a church, and I would stay in it long enough to really become part of what I was in, but then when I would leave, I felt the sadness because I'd made close friends, connections, but I left with my identity.

[00:44:19]And that for me was the biggest thing. I still was the same person after I left as whenever I was in it. And some of the friends who I left behind are still my friends. I I'll still go out to dinner with them and whatnot.

[00:44:32]So, your identity is so molded and shaped into this. Now, combine it with everything else that we've said in this podcast, the emotions, the hype, the euphoria.

[00:44:42]Well, when you're in that level of euphoria and your identity is tied to the group, well, then if you suddenly leave it, all of that that you thought was God is wrapped up in your identity and your identity is left behind. So, people leave and they think, "Oh my gosh, I've left God. I left God behind." And it's it's really sad what they've done to the people. And in the end, it's it's all part of the psychological turmoil that they have created unnecessarily because of trying to keep you in this hype.

[00:45:13]>> Yeah, that's interesting, too. You're talking about the walking. You didn't even realize till you had injured your body. And I think that's the same thing.

[00:45:21]I think people like me, when I've had discussions with, you know, I've my two I've two sisters and we've talked ad nauseam, you know, about this. And you know, they're still believers. They all go to Presbyterian churches. Um, but just kind of like, what was that? And I think a lot of it was like coming out of it, like you're saying, there's a gradual I don't even think we realized it cuz it wasn't this dramatic, like, I'm leaving this cult. It was sort of this slow unraveling and just a lot of years of like, what was that? Or gosh, I feel sad. I feel, you know, did I miss God?

[00:46:00]Like, did I not fulfill, you know, and then there's like, "No, I I didn't." Like, "Do I believe in God still? Like, what you know?" A lot of that um and then having to it's definitely been like a process like you were saying figuring out who am I? Like what do I like? How what How do I act?

[00:46:22]Like what um yeah, who who am I? And I think that you know, I don't even know how to feel.

[00:46:29]Like is this a real emotion? Like was that God or is that not God? Like did I just have a bad day? Like you know, there's a lot It's almost like a child like relearning like I'm one therapy modality that was really helpful to me was DBT, dialectic behavior therapy, which sounds really fancy, but honestly it was just like group therapy basic like here's the emotion wheel.

[00:46:56]What are you feeling? You know, it's like when you have a distressing emotion, you know, it's just sort of this like and a lot of people in the group were um diagnosed with like borderline personality disorder that I was in the group with.

[00:47:09]And it was fascinating because they're describing stuff and I'm like do I have borderline personality you know, I mean it's [laughter] just cuz it's like the same um but it was interesting there's a woman in the group who was in her 60s and you know, she'd been she's like, "This is my eighth time doing DBT or whatever."

[00:47:28]And there was another young lady in the group who's in her 20s this is her first time and she was diagnosed with borderline and this older woman's diagnosed with borderline and it was really interesting to hear them share their experience and you know, what sets them off and um and the older woman was like, you know, "Well, when my boyfriend broke up with me my 30s I key I slashed his tires and bashed in his windows or whatever."

[00:47:52]And she was like, "But then over time, you know, with like DBT and working on like my you know, I don't do that anymore. You like whatever, but it was like the point was like I'm feeling this way, like why, you know, like maybe I'm feeling it like just a logical reason. Like I'm tired.

[00:48:12]I'm hungry, you know, or whatever and just sort of like working through that.

[00:48:16]Like I don't need to follow the rabbit trail of this intense emotion. Like this will pass. And I think a lot of times in these service like churches or or whatever in this movement, a lot of broken people you're attracted in there because you are looking for answers. Like you want healing, you want deliverance. Like this young lady in this TVT group, she's like I've wrecked my life. She's like I lost a job because like she was horribly abused as a child. And so there's a lot of trauma and a lot of grief in that. And she's like I lost my job because I punched my boss. I was like that extreme. And so but the way for freedom, which, you know, I believe is not like having hands laid on, you go through deliverance, and you hop from service to service. It's like I have to deal with these distressing emotions. I have to face the trauma that I went through and then do the boring hard work of step by step. You know, it's like I'm not going to swing up and down. It's just sort of like not that you don't feel like but it's like not every feeling has a meaning, you know, it's it's it's not a DMN. It's not like God, you know, prophesying that we need to move across the country. It is just like it's a feeling. Like it's data.

[00:49:32]You know, like it's not doesn't define define me. I don't know if I'm making sense, but I I think that for whatever reason it's such a basic thing. I I have found healing and freedom in very boring, stable, basic answers. Like it's not extreme. It's It's like the angel of the Lord appeared to me and spoke to me. Blah, blah, blah.

[00:49:54]That didn't that never worked for me.

[00:49:56]Like, you know, and I I think those people that have continued in that way of life, I I think their their nervous systems are exhausted. I I don't know how they're continuing in that. Um And yeah.

[00:50:13]>> I am so glad you brought up borderline personality disorder.

[00:50:16]>> [laughter] >> I've been wanting to talk about that. I can't tell you for how long and it's it's never really come up in a way that I can do it justice. And in the last what do we have? 10 minutes or so here now. I don't know that I can, but I was watching, interestingly, one of these shows, one of these old black and white shows, might have been the Three Stooges.

[00:50:35]And the person was reaching out to grab maybe a cookie. I'm I'm vaguely remembering what this is. And I'm picturing this old woman on the other side with this big wooden spatula smacking the hand every time that he reached out. And he he kept trying to get it, she kept smacking his hand. And over time, he realized that if I'm going to reach my hand out, she's going to smack my hand. And he stopped doing it.

[00:50:59]That's a trained mechanism, right?

[00:51:01]You're trained not to reach your hand out cuz you're smacked. Picture your hand being smacked for 37 years.

[00:51:07]>> Yes.

[00:51:07]>> And then suddenly you walk out of the building, you're never going to reach for the thing again for the next who knows, 20 years. If you ever do, you're never going to reach out because you remember your hand getting smacked.

[00:51:19]We in the group that I left felt like if somebody was had this diagnosis, this was a curse. You were cursed by a demon.

[00:51:28]Demons have infected you. It might be for the rest of your life. And it's not really like that. It's it's a trained disorder. It's you your emotions, your actions, your history, your personality, and your circumstances all contribute to your personality. And it may contribute in a bad way and you may end up with a disorder and you should have to work through processes to correct that over time.

[00:51:55]So, people who are in a movement who is continually manipulating their heads with things like the world is about to end, we must be prepared, you're going to eventually start to mold and shape their personality. That's why when I said the identity was wrapped in, that's exactly what it is. Well, the problem is some of the leaders are very obnoxious whenever they speak and they themselves have a tremendous personality disorder and they're introducing that disorder to the crowd. So, the crowd over time they start to adopt it and then they start to show similarities in their own personalities. You've taken the cult's identity and the identity had a disorder, as >> [laughter] >> as weird as that sounds.

[00:52:39]Well, somebody who like for me who was in this for 37 years, all of my personality flaws that I can trace back to the group are very very difficult to correct. I still say things, I do things, I take actions that after I do it I'm like, you know, that's not right.

[00:52:57]That's not what That's not how people should behave, but that's the way we behaved. And the point I'm trying to make in this very quick rant that I have is that you can be in one of these groups and they can give you a personality disorder that takes years to actually correct and overcome.

[00:53:14]>> Mhm.

[00:53:15]Yeah, also interesting. I wish we had talked about this earlier, too, because I think that's where, you know, I started to um you know, cuz I would I would do years of therapy and I would still have the same like response or like, you know, um my husband and I would get in the same argument or I'm like, "How why can't I like I've been in therapy. I'm like learning else." It wasn't until um a couple few years ago I read a I started listening to this podcast called Navigating Narcissism or whatever.

[00:53:48]And she interviewed a young lady named Stephanie Foo, who wrote a book called What My Bones Know. And she talked about something I never heard, which was complex PTSD.

[00:53:58]And I was like, that is what I have. You know, or I have, you know, and people, you know, roll your eyes at But no, it's like and that it's really interesting now with like a lot of the studies and I have a good friend that's a psychologist who she was saying that they're kind of moving more towards not diagnosing people with borderline personality disorder, but more like complex PTSD.

[00:54:19]Like it's something you can work through and heal. So it's like what you were saying. It's, you know, you're not like, well, you're stuck with this. But these groups, you know, whatever they would probably call it a demon, but like you you don't heal. It keeps you stuck in reliving these like little traumas or you keep you stay in the same cycle of the of borderline, you know, the highs and the lows, that I'm sobbing one day and then I'm euphoric the next day. Like that and that's why when I was sitting in these groups and I'm hearing them describe their, you know, they're like, I'm diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and here is the way in which it manifests and I'm like, okay, that could be me. And I also see every person that I've ever been around in this charismatic movement that's have these wild swings that say, oh, that is a Holy Spirit, that is Jesus, or that's a demon attacking me, or this is spiritual warfare, we have this urgency or whatever. And it's like, no, like that that that's a mental illness. Um And and so I I I think that's what reading about it, reading people's experiences, um even outside of the church and sort of again, seeing those patterns in my own life. And but also the hope of seeing like you know, you we're always growing and changing, and it is biblical. It's like God talks about working your faith, you know, working out your faith. Like Jesus talks about that. It's not like you know, whatever. Like it it takes time.

[00:55:57]Like you know, we're human. And so, I think there's a level of like freedom for me hearing, you know, that older woman who was diagnosed with it talk about over time, healing, working, accepting reality.

[00:56:12]>> [snorts] >> Um and like moving through it where she doesn't have those wild swings or reactions anymore. And um yeah, I I think in these movements, especially when we could I'm sure you'll have people that could talk about this, too, and you can research it on the internet, but it's like Bethel has something called like Sozo, like their inner healing, which is pulled from Randy Clark's deliverance ministry, or whatever. Um and those like if you read about it, like those things are so destructive.

[00:56:42]It's so like it should be outlawed like in a sense because it just it keeps They're not trained. Like and they keep a person with like a borderline or trauma that has like experienced like a lot of traumas in their past, they have mental illness stuck in that. And attribute every And it makes it worse because they attribute it to like spiritual things. Like my salvation, me not burning in hell, is connected to you know, whatever they're you know, they teach in these So, anyway, that's a rabbit trail I'm going on, but >> Yeah, it's such a mess. I mean, really, we probably should do a full episode talking through that because it is very similar, and I I don't know if people realize how connected it is, but I have I have personally been to see a therapist multiple times, and I recommend if you have been impacted by this group or anything similar, it's probably good to go through and just you know, it's like going to a doctor. Find out what's wrong, see see what help we can get and move on through your life.

[00:57:44]You can suddenly start to feel better and and life becomes much better. So, thank you so much for doing this.

[00:57:50]>> Yeah, thank you.

[00:57:52]>> If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org.

[00:57:58]For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible.

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