MORE EVIDENCE EMERGES‼️

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]be said that you are not accountable due to the position you find yourself in.

[00:00:07]You are accountable to members or citizens of this country, to your followers, to the youth.

[00:00:14]And that accountability stems from your position.

[00:00:20]And that is where I'm going to end this.

[00:00:24]You may please stand up.

[00:00:29]Not the court. Oh, I'm sorry.

[00:00:34]Maybe I should be clear.

[00:00:38]>> Sorry for that. All right. After careful consideration, and I can assure you I have done so, free of any interference, this judgment or sentence is the sentence of this court and this court alone.

[00:00:52]In respect of count one, you are sentenced to a period of 5 years imprisonment.

[00:00:59]In respect of count two, you are sentenced to a period of 2 years imprisonment.

[00:01:05]Respect of count three, you are sentenced to 20,000 rand or to undergo 6 months imprisonment. In respect of count four, you are sentenced to 20,000 rand or to undergo 6 months imprisonment.

[00:01:18]Respect of count five, you are sentenced to 20 thou to pay an amount a fine of 20,000 rand or to undergo 6 months imprisonment.

[00:01:28]In terms of section 280 subsection 2 of act 51 of 1977, the court orders that the sentence imposed in respect of counts 2, 3, four, and five run concurrent with the sentence imposed in respect of count one.

[00:01:52]>> You may be seated. Thank you.

[00:01:56]Hosa, welcome to another episode of the dissection where we look at the matter and the data from the skin to the bone marrow. Holo Join Durban Toys UK Atlanta, Texas, Mississippi, wherever you are watching from.

[00:02:22]Let's get into it. Let's get into it.

[00:02:24]Today was another day of Julius and Julius. On the one side, we had dubious Julius Mkonazi at the Madanga Commission continuing his testimony and things are getting extremely hard for him. They were hitting him with files after files after files after files. And on the other side, we had Julius Malemma, the commanderin-chief of the Economic Freedom Fighters, facing his moment of truth in the magistrate court in Eastern Cape. Julius MMA was sentenced his harshest sentence to 5 years in prison for that firearms violation and the big question is was this too harsh of a sentence? Now I think it was yesterday I started with dubious Julius Foolas Muanazi. So today I think I should start with Julius Malemma. So let me get into giving you my thoughts and then some of the reflections. So in my thinking, Julius Malemma did score an own goal. He scored an own goal by taking that firearm and firing it. But I don't know if that own goal should amount to a red card and disqualification.

[00:03:31]Now sentences and sentencing is discretionary in law and criminal law.

[00:03:38]But in as much as it is discretionary, it must also come with consistency for the purposes of predictability. In the legal system, you cannot have um you know such levels of subjectivity that one sentence in Limpopo leads to 15 years, the same offense in Cape Town leads to 5 years, the offense in Eastern Cape leads to 6 months. There needs to be consistency and predictability. One side cannot sentence in a way that is irrational and illogical. You have to bear in mind what the other magistrates, judges and other cases are saying about similar offenses so that there can be predictability. It cannot be that one system leads to worse outcomes, another system leads to worse to better outcomes for the same offense. When you think about this firearms case, the reality remains it is a victimless offense.

[00:04:34]Shorts were fired in the air and nothing happened. Nobody was hurt. No property was damaged. And this is what creates a gap in confidence that I have between the offense and the sentence. And I'm going to elaborate on that a little bit more. Now, on the own goal side of the equation, I think that Julius Malemma should have been more careful with his conduct. Why do I say so? Julius MMA has a prospect of being a future president of South Africa in the black population I think he most popular leader of his era of his age group you know as the demographics of the country change there's a prospect that what is right now 10 to 15% support in terms of the electorate of the EFF is growing the EFF does not have a lot of support in that older demographic maybe you say 50 to 75 but they do have a lot of support in the younger demographic as those younger voters get older that becomes the constituency of the EFF. If you look at the university populations, you look at the university voting patterns, a lot of the people there, uh, SRSC's are actually dominated by the economic freedom fighters and as the economic conditions remain in the manner that they are, you may find that the EFF actually grows in support and as even there is a backlash to the Ramaposa years because the Ramaposa years are not years that have led to economic prosperity for all. you may find that in 2029, Julius Malemma has a bigger share of the electoral pie. So that all of that that I've just said is an argument for caution, is an argument for moving cautiously between now and 2029. When you have as many enemies as Julius MMA, it's important that you exercise maximum caution in your dealing. Afro Afro Fororum, the organization that brought this criminal case has a longunning rivalry with Julius Malemma because of that song that they have a difference of opinion with, right? They have a longunning rivalry with Julius Malemma and they saw an opportunity when that moment happened. They saw an opportunity to remove their political rival from active politics and they took that opportunity. I'm sure today they are popping bottles of champagne at the Afro Fororum headquarters because they have had this successful outcome. So what I'm saying and just to flesh out the idea just a little bit more is that if you think about coalition politics, let's say um the EFF has a strong wicket going into 2029, they come out with 20%. And then the MK party has 20%. And then the ANC comes out with 30%. It may very well be in that kind of a scenario that Julius MMA gets a vice presidency and is on the road to becoming president of South Africa. In the same way that the Democratic Alliance thinks that they have a prospect of having a president in the next election, it is possible in the permutations and combinations which exist for there to be a Julius MMA presidency either in 2029 or more realistically, it's small in 2029, more realistically in the next election which will be 2034.

[00:07:51]This is why this mistake was an own goal and very serious and something that he should have been more mindful of.

[00:08:00]Everybody should have been more mindful of that. That's my starting point. Okay.

[00:08:05]Now, here's the reasoning of the magistrate. The magistrate said it's a concern for the court that a planned event led to a crime being committed.

[00:08:14]She said the firing of the shots cannot be called celebratory and calling it otherwise is sugar coating. She said that, you know, it's clear that there was an intention of committing an offense. She said the decision to break the law was planned and approved by the leadership. She said the accused knew of the unlawfulness and proceeded to break the law and such acts cannot be condoned by the court and the court can't justify this as celebratory shots. And then she went on to say that in so far as other examples which were made such as Oscar Ptorius, her focus is only on this matter. She says, "Sorry, I'm only focused on this matter." Reflecting on what the magistrate said.

[00:08:55]It's a fair argument that the court should have looked at other cases and moderated the sentence appropriately. I don't think that it's reasonable for her to say that she only she didn't have to look at Oscar and other examples and it doesn't matter. Do you know that Mandela Mandela was sentenced to 2 years for an offense significantly more serious than this when he was a member of parliament?

[00:09:20]Mandela Mandela is the grandson of Nelson Mandela. He's also a tribal chief of village uh which is the late Nelson Mandela's birthplace. He's been a member of parliament from 2009 up until 2024.

[00:09:33]Right. On the 5th of October in 2013, he was involved in a moment which the Bundox would call a homie moment. In a homie moment, someone always acts in a way which is compromising and career limiting. He had one of those moments.

[00:09:49]Now, after that moment, the issue went to court and the MTA Regional Court heard in 2014 how Mandala Mandela was, you know, pointing a firearm allegedly at this gentleman and beating that particular gentleman. Mlaming Gul, a geography teacher, told the court that he covered his head with his arms as the Mveso chief kicked and stomped him into the ground. He said my head was hitting against a rough cement surface. I covered my head using my arms. He was kicking me all over my head.

[00:10:21]He said what happened and led to this event is that as he was trying to reverse his car, he heard somebody hurling insults about how he had nearly bumped into the other car. As I listened to this person, he approached the car.

[00:10:34]He told me I was driving a manala and grabbed my car keys. I then insulted him, calling him by his mother's private parts. He asked me if I knew his mother, Noruso. He ran to his car. He grabbed a firearm from underneath the car seat. He cockked it and he was ready to shoot and pointing at me coming towards me. It was Manda Mandela. I realized at that stage he pulled out of the car as I was still sitting in the driver's seat. He then kicked me and stomped me as I lay on the ground. That was the account of the victim Mlang Goutle. Mandela Mandela was uh not Mlang what's his name again.

[00:11:16]Now, Mela Mandela was convicted of an assault in March of 2015, right? And in June of 20 2015, he was sentenced to 2 years and 10,000 rand in fines. The magistrate said that Mandela's conduct on the day in question when he beat up the mata teacher was contrary to the behavior expected from a member of parliament. By virtue of his position in society, the accused ought to have known better. But instead, he acted like a wounded lion charging towards his prey.

[00:11:47]He took the law into his own hands. As a person responsible for the enactment of the law as a member of parliament, he chose to get involved in what can be best described as a road rage incident.

[00:11:57]Mandela Mandela appealed in December of 2015 and he lost the case. He lost an appeal against his assault convention conviction and sentence in the Mata High Court and his team then said they would appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeal and I don't know what happened to the case after that because there's nothing I could see after Supreme Court of Appeal but um I would assume that maybe he had a positive result or I don't know what happened because um he was still a member of parliament up until 2024 right all the way from 2009 up until 2024 he was a member of parliament the incident happened in 2013 and the high court um Tata High Court issue was in 20 uh 2015.

[00:12:38]So I'm bringing this up to show that there's possibly a worse off case with a lower sentence than Julius MMA's sentence. Then there are two other cases that are worth mentioning. Oscar Ptorius was sentenced to a maximum of 5 years for culpable homicide in 2014.

[00:13:01]He shot through a door and killed his then girlfriend right he was sentenced to a maximum sentence of 5 years it cannot be that these two actions are considered comparable in terms of gravity in terms of the nature of the action whether we like malema or we dislike malemma whether he has questions to answer about what is being revealed at the Madlama Commission or he doesn't have questions to answer. It cannot be that firing a gun into the air in a celebration is the same in terms of sentence in terms of sentence as killing somebody. It just cannot be. Yes, it's true that you do need to have strong firearm legislation in any country because those are dangerous weapons and they need to be regulated robustly. You cannot have careless firearm legislation. However, there's a discomfort. It's I have a discomfort. I don't know if you have one and I'm just expressing my thoughts on this issue.

[00:14:07]There's a discomfort in the magistrate saying she pays no heed to the Oscar Ptorius matter and other similar cases and she's only considering her case and the facts before her. That's not really how the law is handled. You have to pay attention to the other cases even in sentencing because there's a need for consistency and predictability in the legal system. Then there's a moral issue as well or I should call it a juristp prudence issue which is the ethics of uh law right we are all equal before the law on paper and that's what the constitution says in section 9 of the constitution but it looks like we're not all equal if you think about it because it does look as if there are some people who get criminally charged in the world of politics while others get you know what is it they get arranged check every time. In the world of politics, it looks as if people are not treated the same.

[00:15:00]Some people are still in their jobs even though they should be charged on the face of the allegations they are facing.

[00:15:06]One example is Hangan Ma. There's no logical basis for him not being charged up until this point. I don't know what we could say in a rational uh you know understanding of why he has not been criminally charged. 2 billion was looted from Tbisa hospital. But there's another example that is more pertinent I think. Wally rude the head of protective services in the presidents. He's the one who has been implicated in the Palapala matter in the iPad report. In the iPad report at paragraph 3.10, this is what it says.

[00:15:42]SAP's members committed the following transgressions as a result of the theft at the president's farm. concealed the crime of housebreaking and theft of cash at the state president's farm and failed to report the matter at a police station in line with the SAP's procedures. Use state resources which include SAPS officials such as the presidential protection unit located in the SAPs VIT VIP protection unit to investigate the president's private business matter in an attempt to track and bring back the president's money without registering a case. kidnapped the suspects and interrogated them in connection with the theft on the president's farm, unlawful border crossing by Major General Rud, not reporting prescribed offenses in terms of section 13.2 of the SAPS Act 68 of 1995, bribery of suspects to conceal the events that took place at Pala Pala on 9 February 2020, unlawful apprehension of suspects. It's a report from 2023 which was sealed and only released this year. So I could ask and I think it's a credible question. Why is it that Mr. Rudier was never charged for any of these offenses if I had found that he had committed them?

[00:16:52]Without providing the answer, which I think is obvious, it does begin to look as though some are equal and others are more equal. And this is what also comes to light in this case because now it looks as if there's selective prosecution, selective application of law and selective throwing of the book at certain people based on um how people view their ideology, their identity and their political presence on the broader scene. I don't know what you think.

[00:17:24]Let's have a conversation in the comment section. Let's talk now about the other Julius. the other Jul Julius, dubious Julius. He's in trouble. He's in trouble. Today, the commission was focused on bringing files upon files upon files. They brought video evidence.

[00:17:41]They brought audio evidence. They brought text messages of everything. You know, yesterday I made a graphic that I forgot to show you just uh relating to the fatalities linked to Julius Mazi, not necessarily directly, but around this particular issue of Emanuel. So we know that Emanuel Benze from Brabbran lost his life in on the 15th of April 2022 uh blunt force trauma to the head.

[00:18:06]He was tortured and his body was dumped in the Dutuza dam. We know that Yako Hanekum died on the 17th of March 2023.

[00:18:15]He was shot dead in a driveby shooting at a filling station. We know that SAP's constable Raymon Koa from Brockban was also shot. He was gunned down outside of his house. We know that Marius Vanva, witness D, who was the owner of a private security company, who was the one told to dispose of the body, the one who testified at the Madlanga Commission, was killed weeks after he testified at the Madlanga Commission. He was shot outside of his house. We know that Vandre Ptorius, a former police reservist, also killed himself after surviving an attack. And it seems he was the person who took uh Matipand Sauteni to the house of uh witness D and pointed out witness D. So these are the people who've lost their lives. These are serious allegations he's been facing.

[00:19:06]Today the commission moved on from the discussions around that particular matter and went back to the stolen stones. They went back to the blue lights that Julius arranged for Vi Matala and Julonazi throughout the day could only say that he didn't he didn't remember he didn't understand that yes you see on that one commissioners I have no reason to lie you see I think you see I don't know you see you see on that one commissioners h I need to go it's that time again commissioners I need to that's all that's all he was giving throughout the A but I think that the man is on his way to prison. The commission was able to download the phone of Mike Vanvik, the owner of the Medicare company. In that phone, they found multiple pieces of evidence showing that vousella was the head of the operation that Mike Vanv was sorting out blue lights with Julius Mkonazi and was showing buckets of money to Julius as enticement. I actually think that Mike is now cooperating with the commission with the police. I don't think he wants to go to jail and I think this is part of why his his phones are now being used to supply evidence in the manner that they are. This is some of what happened.

[00:20:20]>> What you are looking at is page 48 of the uh Mr. Fanve's chats and that is a a chat he had with you and you see on that screen that there is a video clip.

[00:20:35]>> Oh, this is a warm day like we have here. You know, it's warm. This fan of mine's not working so luck. I don't know if it's because it's hard. I'm not sure what it's doing. Anyway, I have another one here. Let me put this one here and try this one. Oh, it's so so hard. I'm going to spend this [ __ ] money now.

[00:20:52]Please tell me what what where we going.

[00:20:55]Have a lucky day.

[00:20:58]>> Now, my question is, do you remember receiving this clip from Mr. Fanv?

[00:21:04]>> No, no, I don't remember receiving this from Mike Fanv. Would you know what Mr. Vanve is talking about?

[00:21:13]>> Can you repeat it? I was just looking at the his his action there. And what is >> you you want me to rerun the video >> so that I can listen or you can >> No, no, no. It's here. You can listen uh from the source.

[00:21:28]>> I hope you have a warm day like we have here. You know, it's warm. This fan of mine's not working so I don't know if it's because it's hard. I'm not sure what it's doing. Anyway, I have another one here. Let me put this one here and try this one. Oh, so so hard. We're going to spend this [ __ ] money now.

[00:21:45]Please tell me what what where we going.

[00:21:47]Have a lucky day.

[00:21:52]>> No, I I I don't remember.

[00:21:53]>> You don't remember?

[00:21:55]>> Yes. You had said, but uh my question was would you know what he's talking about?

[00:21:59]>> That's what I'm saying that I had the first one I answered. The second one I don't even remember what he's talking about. Okay.

[00:22:06]>> Yes.

[00:22:07]>> Then we move on to the next.

[00:22:08]>> There's a there's a big difference between I do not remember and I never saw it.

[00:22:16]A video like that. There's no way you would not remember if you had seen it.

[00:22:24]Did you see it? No, Commissioner. I don't and I don't remember it.

[00:22:29]Commissioner >> Yeah. Sorry, Julie. And you want to send me um >> Vushi's letter as well so I can print it as well and and you can sign that and I'll see you now.

[00:22:44]>> I'll play it again. Please listen.

[00:22:46]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:22:48]>> Don't you want to hear me? Sorry, Julius. Don't you want to send me um >> VI's letter as well so I can print it as well and you can sign that and I'll see you now.

[00:22:59]>> Okay. Uh there's background noise where he is. He's asking you to send him V's letter. Can sign and send him V's letter so he can print it now and then I think you you were scheduled to have a meeting because he says see you now.

[00:23:16]What V's letter is this? Is this the appointment letter that we've been discussing throughout?

[00:23:22]>> No appointment. It's a card, not the letter.

[00:23:24]>> Okay. Now he says V's letter.

[00:23:27]>> No, no, I'm lost. No, I don't remember.

[00:23:30]You you had an opportunity to respond whichever way you wanted to respond.

[00:23:36]>> You say he sends this message at 7:37.

[00:23:41]You respond at 7:39. In fact, 7:37 19 7:39 45. So in less than 2 minutes, you respond and you say, "Must we change the format, too?" So you know exactly what he's talking about. You knew what he's talking about.

[00:23:59]>> No. Yeah. It's the format of what? Of the letter. The format of that thing.

[00:24:06]>> That's what you're supposed to tell us because you wrote this. You listened to the audio and in less than 2 minutes you say, "Must we change the format, too?"

[00:24:17]You're the one that must tell us what format were you talking about changing.

[00:24:21]You can't say he must have been lying to Vusia. I don't know what he's talking about. when you say within 2 minutes must we change the format too and the question that is legitimate to ask you is what format were you going to change what document or whatever were you talking about here >> I I don't recall I'll be lying because I I'm not a computer as I've said >> no it's not about being a computer fun and you do recall what it was about it's not true that you do not recall you responded very specifically Must we change the format, too? That's a very specific response. Anyone who responds that way knows what the preceding message was about. So, no, it's not it's not it's not you're not being truthful. Again, when you say, "I don't remember." In fact, you're just continuing in this consistent evasive responses to questions where you say, "Well, I don't remember." here. You must remember because you responded.

[00:25:26]>> No, I don't deny that I communicated.

[00:25:28]It's just that I don't remember that I did that. I don't deny as I've said that I don't deny my communications with Mike. No, I communicated with Mike like as I've said you can see that we used to communicate even not here we will meet and discuss. It's just that I don't call that thing.

[00:25:46]>> Okay. Let let me make a further suggestion. We looked earlier at the letter of October 2021. I think it was the 16th October 2021.

[00:25:58]>> Correct. Correct. Commission >> Medicare where letter of confirmation to Medicare.

[00:26:04]>> What Mike is asking for in this clip is a similar letter for Vousy personally.

[00:26:12]That's it.

[00:26:13]>> No, I get that.

[00:26:14]>> That's what he's asking for. So, you cannot say I don't know what he's talking about.

[00:26:20]for that reason that you've already issued a letter of confirmation which says these people work with EMPD, right?

[00:26:29]Mike says to you, "My boss will go to jail because he doesn't have blue lights." Mike says, "Here's a business card idea." Mike says, "We want a confirmation letter." And in the in the other clip that we listened to, can we get a confirmation letter? And now Mike says, "Can I get a letter from for Vousy?" You know what the letter is about? It's exactly the same letter that you gave to Medicare, but now he wants it for his boss >> in his boss's name. You know, and understand that's what that conversation, that series of conversations was all about.

[00:27:05]And where you say you don't know what he was talking about, he must have been lying to Malala. It's you uh uh Commissioner Konazi with with respect who's lying to us.

[00:27:18]>> Thank you >> and comment. I don't mean to stop you from commenting. If you want if you think there's anything you want to say.

[00:27:27]>> No, you're not to comment. Thank you.

[00:27:29]Comment.

[00:27:30]>> Okay. Then uh that leads me to my next step.

[00:27:33]>> At this point, I think the commissioners are tired of this guy. They're tired of his shady answers. I think advocate Macheel has done everything she can to prove that indeed he is guilty of everything that he's accused of and he was working with this cabal of his Kesha Maris Stall and all of these other characters and that they were acting in ways Adrien McKenzie that they were acting in ways that were defeating the ends of justice. They were hijacking.

[00:28:01]They were stealing. And of course, they were involved in that Emanuel Benze matter. And the big question still remains, what did Emanuel Ben steal? I think it was a consignment of drugs.

[00:28:13]That's my theory. But we'll only find out as time goes because I think that's what brought all of those people there and even made them refuse a bribe. I think that's what went down. I don't think that Julius Konazi is going to stay home for much longer. I think very soon he's going to get the Sergeant Nikosi treatment. Today was just one of those days where I think he even got to realize that yo my days are numbered. My days his days are numbered. Julius drinker of rivers, ser of oceans. Baba, I don't know how many bathroom breaks you'll need there in Muru, but hey, soon and very soon. Let's leave it there today, guys. I'll talk to you in the comment section. till the next one.

[00:28:59]>> Commissioner, we will just uh deal with one more clip and uh we will adjourn for the day.

[00:29:08]Okay. Thank you.

[00:29:10]>> Uh thank you chair. And after we adjourn for the day, Commissioner Mkanazi, you and I will then have a quick sit down and and look at diaries uh as to the most appropriate day for you to return so that we complete. Okay.

[00:29:28]>> Yes. uh particularly because we we have not had opportunity to deal with the some of the issues you raise in your own amended statement and in particular about by by way of example the appointment of the 55.

[00:29:48]You mentioned it in passing in your supplementary statement but we haven't engaged with it. So um when we close here today when you come back it is to deal with the remainder of the issues that I have and to give you opportunity to address whatever you consider has not been properly placed on record. I I think on my side the evidence that I'm happy if you received it you will deal with it >> or you happy if we received it that we deal with it and because my worry was that maybe you didn't receive and you but that with your trust the commission that is >> no we can do it that way then it would mean probably that the time you and I then have to set for your return might be just not more than half a day or just slightly over half a day. Okay.

[00:30:36]Um so I'm playing >> and uh please even though Miss Slo says that you will compare diaries um a a subina may still have to be um issued for whatever date you you agree on.

[00:30:55]>> Thank you chair. Thank you for that clarification.

[00:30:59]So now I'm going to turn to the next uh clip, audio clip.

[00:31:05]And uh and just to locate you on your screen, uh this is an audio clip of the 15th of December, 2021.

[00:31:22]And um are you at page 53, Lea?

[00:31:27]And it will be the audio clipped at 1830 56. Do you see it?

[00:31:45]If you look at if you look at the big, you've got it.

[00:31:49]So that that is the audio clip you received at 1830 on on that date. So now I'm going to play the clip and I will invite you to perhaps uh assist us in some regard just so we can't just ask it quickly who it is. I I know she sorted these problems out but we might need to look at how we're going to pass that or see or go around that one and then the white people. I I just can't put my who can that be because I've checked all the guys and did criminal checks on them as well.

[00:32:26]It's It's not audible enough. Can >> say that again.

[00:32:29]>> It's not audible enough.

[00:32:30]>> It's not audible enough. Yes.

[00:32:33]>> Oh, there >> uh >> I'll just ask you quickly who it is. I I know Vy sorted these problems out, but we might need to look at how we're going to pass that or go around that one. And then the white people I I just can't put my who can that be because I've checked all the guys and criminal checks on them as well.

[00:32:54]Okay. Now, just to put context to it, I'm going to put up something. Let's go back to the actual chat and see whether we can place it in context. You'll understand it better. You might, you might not.

[00:33:06]>> Uh remember, if we look Uhuh. I moved.

[00:33:12]Okay. If we look at that page 53, it starts uh do you see where it reads under looks like a pin given there and he says floor 8 cat security 7 a.m. Do you see where I'm reading? Lea, can you help her?

[00:33:39]>> Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Then you uh at 1817 say confirmed.

[00:33:46]>> Yes.

[00:33:46]>> And you thereafter say again uh sure Mike.

[00:33:51]>> Yes.

[00:33:57]>> Then he says thanks. See you then.

[00:34:04]Then he poses a question. Who is the two? I read that to be true with the records.

[00:34:13]Yeah. And then you respond, I am lost.

[00:34:16]He says, who is the criminal records?

[00:34:22]Okay. Then we go then the there is an audio.

[00:34:27]It continues. You say to him at 1829, Trinity spoke about two people, the tough guy and the black one guy. Let me confirm with her in the morning. Mike, what are you talking about there?

[00:34:42]>> Well, this one I can remember very well.

[00:34:44]>> Yes.

[00:34:45]>> When we when you get that piece card, they clarified me the college good that we need to take check for criminal records. you can't issue that PIC card to a person who's having a criminal record. And she said it's just that I was not part when they were having these people. Just mentioned that there's a white and a black guy who are having criminal record. They can't shoot any >> so >> in the peace officers cut that were you any did you at any point with him address the issue address the issue of Mr. Vimus Matala's criminal record?

[00:35:32]>> No remember by that time I didn't know anything.

[00:35:36]It's when Trinity told me that it's a black guy and a white guy who's having criminal record. You see, it's them that checked and told me that there are two people have a criminal record.

[00:35:50]>> So, you did discuss the issue of Mr. Matala having a criminal record.

[00:35:54]>> No, no, that was my question.

[00:35:56]>> Yeah. No, no, no. I didn't know by that time.

[00:35:59]>> So, you never discussed this issue with with with our own?

[00:36:05]>> No, it was with Mr. Fanve have you ever discussed the issue of Mr. Matala's criminal record with Mr. Fanve?

[00:36:13]>> I think I may have.

[00:36:15]>> Okay. Now, in what was the context of of that discussion? What were you discussing there?

[00:36:20]>> I don't remember, Commissioner.

[00:36:22]>> Oh, >> I don't but I know the lady reported to me that it's a black guy and a white that's when I remember very well that a black guy and a white guy that died in criminal records. So basically you you you testify that you may have discussed Mr. Matala's criminal record with Mr. Fanve but unfortunately you don't remember exactly what it is you discussed about that.

[00:36:46]>> Yes. Yes I don't recall.

[00:36:49]>> That's your testimony and yes that that is the final cl I'm happy to leave it there.