BREAKING: People Claiming PIP for Bed Wetting and Tennis Elbow

[00:00:00]We need to have a conversation about this for the simple reason we have people claiming personal independence payments because they have tennis elbow.

[00:00:12]I know.

[00:00:13]John O'Connell is chief executive of the TaxPayers' Alliance and he joins us.

[00:00:16]Hello, John.

[00:00:18]>> Good evening, Duncan.

[00:00:18]>> Always good to see you. Thank you for joining us here on talk. Um for full disclosure, you and I do podcasts together. We hosted panels at political conferences uh and I'm a big fan and supporter of the TaxPayers' Alliance because it is one of the few campaigning groups that's really prepared to go, "Hang on a second, these figures they're running out of control. We need to do something about it." I mean, what's your take on the fact that this is going on and the figures are just increasing?

[00:00:46]>> Uh um flabbergasting, really. Um we we've seen these sharp increases and you you mentioned the one-year jumps and if we look at um anxiety-related um PIP claims, personal independence payment claims, um over the last 6 years it's gone from 200,000 to 500,000. So, this is really starting to rocket and some of it's down to um post the post-COVID environment. During COVID, of course, um assessments for certain disability benefits were switched to online only and they stayed online only. So, we no longer have in-person assessments for lots of these um different claims, which means that claims are getting through much more easily and we've seen um in fact lots of people on social media giving tips on TikTok and Instagram on how to claim as much as you possibly can, the so-called sickfluencers. Um but who pays for it all? It's taxpayers, it's families, it's businesses, it's the people who get up in the morning and go to work and that's where the unfairness comes in.

[00:01:48]Um you know, cuz people talk about unfairness when it comes to sort of reducing welfare and this kind of thing, but the actual unfairness is when it's loaded onto taxpayers and businesses and it's are doing the right thing, doing the responsible thing.

[00:02:01]Um you know, from a family perspective, putting a bit of money aside for a rainy day. From a business perspective, creating jobs for people in their local communities.

[00:02:09]Um you know, and and generally helping to drive economic growth. They're the people They're the ones that are suffering. That That's the unfairness in the system. Um we need to get a grip of it very very quickly, otherwise it will get out of control.

[00:02:21]>> Yeah, I mean here at talk, we we call them the kind of people you just outlined alarm clock Britain. The kind of people get out of bed, want to work hard, provide for their family. They put in a shift, which is a phrase I often use. And then they hear stuff like this and just think, well, people are are taking the mic. I mean, I think a lot of our viewers and listeners will just that their minds will be blown with the fact that when we talk about PIP, it does not require a doctor's fit note. And it's awarded based on how a condition affects daily life, rather than a specific medical diagnosis diagnosis, which seems to me that the bar for acceptance is just remarkably low, if if if not non-existent.

[00:02:57]>> Yeah, absolutely. And we talk about some of the the sort of I suppose the more seemingly minor or or trivial issues for which people were receiving um PIP, like tennis elbow, like acne.

[00:03:09]These are things that need medical, you know, treatment, fine. But you you get medical treatment, you you go back to work. That That's That should be a given. That's common sense. That That just makes, you know, complete sense to any right-thinking person. Um I There's two two things with that really.

[00:03:26]Um a life on benefits is no good for the recipient. Um if they're able and fit to work, if they're spending their time at home not working in in receipt of um taxpayer's money, that's not good for them. Um it it you know, it becomes a a very sort of dangerous cycle of um further reliance on on on the state. Um if there are some mental health issues, they're bound to get worse, not better, by sitting at home. Um so, not only are we sort of um you know, passing on or telling, taking taxpayers money to to fund all of this, we're actually not doing the recipient any good whatsoever.

[00:04:01]Um, we but we've also got to realize that people are responding to incentives. Um, this is the system that's put in front of people and if you say to say a single mother, "Look, you can earn more on benefits than you can in a job." then why shouldn't she take those benefits? You know, that's a rational economic incentive. So, because this system is completely um, broken.

[00:04:23]Um, it places all the wrong incentives uh, in front of people and it asks um, a lot of taxpayers and businesses. In fact, it demands it um, on the on the threat of jail if you don't cough up your taxes. Yeah. And then what do we do? We say, "Right, okay, you know, times are tough for businesses so we're going to whack up employers' national insurance to make you pay even more for this benefits bill." And then we talk about the profound national sort of strategic questions around defense and this debate going on in the Labour Party about um, you know, funding defense and whether you cut the welfare bill and and this kind of thing.

[00:04:55]Um, it it it it's it's it's absolutely staggering that we're we're talking about um, not being able to trim some of this £300 the £300 billion benefit bill in order to defend the country properly and um, dare I say, you know, um, having a a sort of a sort of cohort of people who are receiving um, PIP for anxiety is not a good um, footing for um, a country that might have to defend itself in the not too distant future.

[00:05:24]>> No, absolutely. Do you think the political will exist with the current administration to properly tackle this?

[00:05:29]>> No, no, none whatsoever. Uh, we we it it's probably the moment that Keir Starmer lost his authority entirely is when he aimed to reduce the rate of increase um, of uh, the benefits bill. He didn't he didn't really even want to cut cut it in any sort of meaningful sense. It was just to reduce the rate of increase.

[00:05:49]And he was told absolutely not by his backbenchers and he backed down and that was the moment he completely lost the authority and despite the absolutely historic majority he has, he has no control over his backbenchers and it was all down to that one particular moment. So no, I I don't think that there's any will whatsoever to get control of this benefits bill and even you know, some of us from a sort of political analysis if you like, you know who are Labour's constituency anymore? You know, it's not the working class. It you know, the clue ought to be in the name but it's not it's not the working class. It's a weird mix of the the sort of you know, upper middle class professionals, the lanyard class as they're called and benefit claimants and you know, that's their constituency now.

[00:06:34]>> Yeah, increasingly it just seems like we're a welfare state with an economy attached to it. Do you think that's fair comment?

[00:06:41]>> Yeah, an economy that's struggling more and more every single day and won't be able to fund this welfare state for much longer. You know, even if you looked at the PIP claims, you know, the total bill is forecast to go out just for PIP to go out to 40 billion by 2030.

[00:07:00]These are numbers that just completely running out of control. Where is this money going to come from and you know, if anybody has a bit of get up and go about them, you know, that they're thinking about leaving the country anyway.

[00:07:13]So you know, we're we're we're sort of we're taking away the tax base to pay for all of this to pay for this welfare system and it can't last. It's a bit of a Ponzi scheme and you know, it's families and businesses that lose out.

[00:07:29]>> I think you're right, John. Always a pleasure. Thank you for your time this evening. That's John O'Connell, chief executive of the TaxPayers' Alliance here on talk.