How to Stop Being Socially Awkward (According to Science) | Behavioral Scientist Vanessa Van Edwards

Added: 2026-05-19

[00:00:00]We don't call anybody up and ask for help. You don't go to your neighbor. You don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore. We're having social struggles, social awkwardness more than we used to because there aren't the natural interactions that are forcing us to learn them.

[00:00:13]>> Yes, I think we are in the most critical time that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.

[00:00:20]>> That's a scary thought.

[00:00:21]>> It's terrifying.

[00:00:23]We are obsessed with finding the right words, saying just the right thing so we can get the job, get the girl, make a good impression. Sometimes we labor over our texts. Some of us can even stress for days, worried if we said the right thing or not. And now with AI, we're all learning to find just the perfect words exactly when we need them. But there's a problem. Making human connections takes more than words. It also includes things like body language, non-verbal communication, and because we communicate digitally so often, we aren't practicing those skills like we used to. We aren't practicing being human. That's why I invited Vanessa Van Edwards onto the show. She's a self-described recovering awkward person who spent 20 years studying the science of body language and what actually makes people click. In her book, Conversation: How to be instantly likable in any interaction, she makes the case that we can still learn the social skills we need at any age.

[00:01:23]Vanessa has discovered that all that stress and inside talk that goes on when we're struggling, it all goes away the second we decide to be more generous. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe for more. This is a bit of optimism.

[00:01:47]I always love people's journeys, how they get started into what they do. And you have I mean I know you call yourself a recovering awkward person.

[00:01:54]>> I think it reveals a lot about our us the careers that we find ourselves on.

[00:01:58]>> How did you get into what you do now?

[00:02:02]>> By accident.

[00:02:04]>> Always the best stories.

[00:02:05]>> Always. So, in 2007, this this new website called YouTube started, and I was like, you know, this is kind of fun.

[00:02:12]And but back then, YouTube was a crazy place. YouTube was people unboxing things and and makeup >> and scratching on microphones.

[00:02:20]>> Yeah, exactly. I don't even know if that existed then. I don't even know if that existed.

[00:02:23]>> That came later.

[00:02:24]>> And I was like, you know, maybe I could post on this thing called YouTube and I could share. I was very, very awkward.

[00:02:31]And at the time I was reading a lot of research on interpersonal intelligence, social skills, body language, and I was like, why is no one talking about this research? So I would open up my my my phone, you know, and I would start recording tips for other awkward people.

[00:02:45]In my mind, there were maybe 15 of us, you know. I was like, this is for the other 15 awkward people who have just finished college and are trying to interview and we're afraid of everyone.

[00:02:57]I also my awkwardness is I think everyone's angry at me all the time.

[00:03:00]That's a a brand of awkwardness that I have. Like I'm so happy you're smiling because otherwise I think you were angry at me. Okay, great. So, um I actually learned in the research that a certain kind of neuroticism misinterprets neutral faces as negative.

[00:03:15]>> And so I would share things like that.

[00:03:17]Hey, if you think everyone's angry at you, you might be misinterpreting. I wanted to say this is what an angry face looks like. And those little tips were how I got through the day, how I stopped social overthinking. Then all my videos started getting a 100red views, 200 views, a thousand views. And then what happened was I started to read research and then do experiments on myself. So I would say, "Hey, this research experiment said that men love the smell of food on a woman. Great.

[00:03:46]Let's try it." So I got popcorn bags and I rubbed them on my forearms and I'd go to a party and I'd see if men said I smelled good. Right? The weirdest experiments ever. I would just try them.

[00:03:55]And that worked, by the way. That really worked. Which which food did men respond best to?

[00:03:58]>> Popcorn. Not barbecue.

[00:04:00]>> Nope. No. I didn't try that one. Ribs. I was just like I like put a rib in my purse. That might have worked. That would have been good. That might have worked. That might have worked. Vanilla also worked really well. So I started posting about these silly social experiments and my first video went viral and it it completely changed everything. That happened in 2010 >> and I started to get approached by people to create courses and courses weren't really a thing back then and also to do corporate trainings on soft skills. Specifically, there were companies who were hiring brilliant people, engineers, new managers who were very technically brilliant but didn't have social skills. And so they said, "We think that you could speak to that group." So I started to create presentations teaching soft skills in a mathematical way, teaching soft skills with a science backing so that really brilliant, technically brilliant folks could actually learn soft skills like they learn math or science.

[00:04:50]>> I believe all these things are learnable obviously.

[00:04:52]>> Yes. But as you know all of these things when you are learning them you are really in your head about them. Yes. You know which makes it difficult because people don't know that they're learning.

[00:05:04]It's like a bicycle. At some point you stop saying pedal pedal pedal and you just start writing. For somebody who is awkward for somebody who is was an engineer and now is found themselves in a leadership position where now you have to have those human skills otherwise you're not going to survive or at least not do well. How do you ensure that they stick with it till they get to the point where that it clicks? Because it is awkward overcoming awkwardness.

[00:05:28]>> Yes, >> you're stuck in your head >> overthinking.

[00:05:30]>> Overthinking. You've learned all the skills you've been teaching and you've learned about moving your hands, tone of voice, and all of these things. But when you're talking to somebody, you're just thinking like, "Move your hands, move your hands, hand, more hand gestures, be be interesting, be interesting, you know?" Okay, so here's the mistake that people make with this is they start with the skill or the person they're most nervous with. So oftent times they've read how to for influence people and they're like, "Okay, I'm going to go into my boss's office. Wrong. We've already made a mistake." Why would you start a brand new social skill you're just trying for the first time with the person who makes you the most nervous?

[00:06:04]No. So wrong person first. Oh, and I'm going to go in and I'm going to say their name a bunch. So they're like, "Good morning, Simon. Simon, how did you like the task last week, Simon? Simon, wasn't it great?" And it's like and then you get the negative feedback. The boss is like, "What is going on? Why are you using my name so much?" And they're like, "I'm never doing anything again."

[00:06:21]>> Right?

[00:06:21]>> So, what I say is, "No, we're going to start really small. I like microsocial skills."

[00:06:27]>> Microso skills are the social skills that you're already good at that you didn't actually realize was a skill that you were naturally good at. So, for example, telling a story is a micro social skill. And there are some awkward people who are exceptional at telling very good real stories, embarrassing moments, case studies with a client. So I would say okay let's start with the micro skill that you're very good at.

[00:06:45]That could be explaining something technical. That could be a story. That could be even quiet power like listening really really well. That could be a non-verbal thing. That could be you're really really warm non-verbally. You're good at nodding. You're good at eye contact. So first is identify what you're already good at because you need that courage to get you through the discomfort. Right? So I say okay let's start with the micro skill and and there's like a list. You know we have a list of like 70 of them. Okay start with the micro skill. Then who are the people who make you feel like your best self at work?

[00:07:14]>> Mhm.

[00:07:15]>> Who are the people already in your job where you're not overthinking? Let's try a little new micro skill that you might be good at with them. So it's like we're using soft skills as an experiment and we're starting with the good because the only way to get through it to get through the cortisol to get through the adrenaline of like your heart pounding when you're trying something new is to fall back on the micro skill that you're good at. I also think the same thing in conversation. So, there are topics that some of us are very good at discussing, right? Like, you're very good at discussing certain topics, but I'm sure if I were to ask you about something that you knew nothing about, you'd be like, "Tell me more." And then you'd be out of your depth. We need to have back pocket topics that we are just like so fired up about. Maybe we hit flow when we're talking about it. Maybe we're passionate about it. So, that if you're in conversation by accident with your boss or the client, you can bring up that thing you're very good at and then you're like, "Oh, yeah. Here's my rhythm." and then we can try the new stuff.

[00:08:08]>> As if social media and our phones haven't like done enough damage to us as social animals. This is another one of those where, you know, I mean, I can just tell you from my career as I'm listening to you, >> I used to try things out at dinner parties. I used to try things out sitting on the plane talking to the person next to me. Yes. When I first learned my why and I was practicing how do I say it to people and I got it wrong a hundred times. You know, people think I'm this expert because I'm just naturally good at it. No, I practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced, but I practiced in these very safe environments where the stake the stakes were zero. You know, oh, the person next to me on the plane thinks I'm an idiot and whatever. But those places are gone now.

[00:08:44]>> That's it.

[00:08:44]>> Those places are gone.

[00:08:45]>> Unless you create casual collisions.

[00:08:48]>> Yeah.

[00:08:48]>> Right. We've gotten rid of a lot of those casual interactions. And even before, you could kind of practice your first impression when you went out to grab groceries. You could practice your first impression when you went to grab something. But now, if I need sugar, I'm not going to a neighbor. I'm ordering it on an app. If I need to grab some dinner, I'm ordering an app. I'm not even running into a store and getting something. If I need to learn something, I'm looking it up on YouTube as opposed to calling a friend. I don't know if you remember this, but like dating ourselves. Remember when you didn't know something? You had to call someone who knew >> Never had that experience.

[00:09:18]>> You never didn't know anything or you didn't know who to call.

[00:09:21]>> Go on.

[00:09:22]>> Go on. Yeah. Yeah. Like I remember that of having to call someone be like, "How do you do X?" And they would have to walk you through it on the phone. Those were ways to practice I don't know something.

[00:09:33]>> Yeah.

[00:09:34]>> Saying I don't know is a is a skill, right? Being able to say it and ask for help. And so I think that we have to recreate those to practice.

[00:09:42]>> It's nice to call someone who knows something because you're right, we all go to to YouTube and like or now AI, teach me how to or show me how to.

[00:09:50]>> Like I I call my mom less.

[00:09:52]>> Like recently since AI started, I call my mom less because now I used to call my mom when I had a question about something.

[00:09:59]>> Yeah. And now I don't want to bother her. So I ask AI and that worries me.

[00:10:05]>> This is so interesting. The other thing I mean I'm I'm fascinated by this awkward stuff because um I still think I'm awkward. So I'm not I don't think I've ever recovered.

[00:10:13]>> In what way?

[00:10:13]>> Oh, I'm socially awkward.

[00:10:15]>> Uh >> big groups, small groups, all.

[00:10:17]>> I hate big groups.

[00:10:18]>> Okay.

[00:10:18]>> Can't stand them.

[00:10:19]>> Y >> if it's noisy, I'm out.

[00:10:20]>> Totally.

[00:10:21]>> But I've also gotten comfortable being awkward.

[00:10:24]>> Awkward. And so though I've learned some techniques to compensate being a weirdo nerdy kid, um I've also just gotten comfortable with it. And my ex-girlfriend used to make fun of me because we'd go to a party like at someone's house and and there's like three or four people over here having a conversation, three or four people over there having a conversation, two people over there having a conversation, and I never knew how to interrupt a conversation. I would like show up and I' I'd stand there awkwardly and no one would acknowledge that I was standing there and I'd sort of like just slink away. Horrible. And she would make so much fun of me because I would just be standing by myself in the middle of the, you know, the garden just sipping my drink in all these conversations. And I'm just I'm just by myself in the middle. But I'm also, you know, I'm the anthropologist. So it's not that I'm just like staring off into the clouds in my own world. I'm actually taking the world in and watching everybody. And I enjoy watching people get to know each other, but I am by myself.

[00:11:17]>> Yes. Yes. By the way, can I give you some tips for your party? Okay. Your next party. Okay. The worst place to stand at a party is right near the entrance where people are putting away their coats or just getting off their shoes. They cannot make deep conversation because they're needing to do their things, right? Get their drink, get their food, go to the bathroom. So, never stand. I call that like the entry zone. Like, never stand there. I also think a big mistake is stand near the food. People stand near the food. The problem is is when people are near the food, they're focusing on their food.

[00:11:41]And also, you're going to have a conversation midbite, which never works well. People want to sit down. So, never stand there. My favorite place to stand is right as people exit the bar. So, wherever the drinks are set up, it's that moment where someone turns around and faces the room with drink in hand that you are a social savior. They have just gotten their drink. They're turning around from just filling their drink with ice. If you are standing right there, you have a very easy opener. So, what brings you here? How's the drink?

[00:12:06]Is the wine good? That moment is awkward for everyone. It doesn't matter how extroverted you are. If you are in a room where you don't know who you're going to talk to next and you just had your filled drink, let me tell you, there's panic. Someone might not look panicked, but they're like with their drink and they're like, "Who who who who?" Let it be you. So, that's my favorite place to stand right as you exit the bar. Second choice.

[00:12:28]Let's say everyone's in groups. Are you Are you like, "I don't know if I can do it."

[00:12:32]>> I'm You're assuming that I want anybody to talk to me.

[00:12:34]>> Well, that's Well, that that this is also a question.

[00:12:36]>> I'm standing by I'm totally standing by the coats.

[00:12:39]>> Okay. No, not by the codes. Okay. The other place which you might like which you might like is do you know where I was standing when I got here?

[00:12:48]Buy your art.

[00:12:49]>> Yeah, >> because I love art and I love books. So, buy someone's art or buy someone's bookcase because one, I'm always fascinated by the art and books people have in their house. Like, I can learn about them. So, no matter what, even if no one talks to me, I'm a happy camper cuz I'm looking at that art. I'm looking at who did it. I'm thinking about it or the books. I'm like, "Oo, what so what are they reading right now?"

[00:13:08]>> Yeah.

[00:13:08]>> And sometimes you actually attract the right person. There are people who are also searching for the person. and they've just come in and if they see you in your own mind totally happy by yourself, they might come over and be like, "Oh, you know, what is this person reading?" Or, "Wow, that's a beautiful painting." So, that's a good way to do it. The last option, which I I want you to try, if you're willing, if you're brave enough, never walk up to a group and just stand there. It doesn't work.

[00:13:32]It doesn't work. And people often are like, "What is this person doing here?"

[00:13:36]Yeah. So, what you want to do is wait for a group to be in a moment of laughter or a moment of ha. Then you walk up, you touch someone lightly on the arm, and you say, "You look like you're having a great time. May I join?"

[00:13:50]That moment of goodness that's happening in that group, there's something magical happening in that group. They're laughing at something. They're having a moment. That is their peak openness moment. And if you walk in and you ask for help, social help, you are going to tug on a part of their heartstring that's like, "Oh, of course you can join. Come." You know, we were just talking about how her dog just, you know, did this thing in her couch. It was so funny. Let me tell you. So, you look like you're having so much fun. May I join?

[00:14:17]>> Are we living in a time where we shouldn't be having this conversation?

[00:14:20]You know, as social animals, you you know, some more, some less, some better, some worse, but you bumble and fumble through life and you learn a lot of these skills you were saying because we don't call anybody up and ask for help.

[00:14:33]You don't go to your neighbor. You don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore. And if you have kids, >> you're not sending them to the neighbor to go get the sugar. You're not. And so I I was talking to a family. They have a 14-year-old who's afraid to answer the door because there's a might be a person there. These are things that whether you wanted to or not, you had to learn them because that was the only way >> to get these things. So are we living in a time where though we could be helping people learn these things in the past, everything is exaggerated. Like we're like we're having social struggles, social awkwardness more than we used to because there aren't the natural interactions that are forcing us to learn them.

[00:15:08]>> Yes. I think we are in the most critical time that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.

[00:15:15]>> It's a scary thought.

[00:15:16]>> It's terrifying.

[00:15:17]>> A friend of mine talks about this in terms of dating as well. She she she makes the connection to entrepreneurship >> where when you're young, you learn the discomfort of asking someone out, getting accepted, getting rejected, asking someone out, learning how to say no, learning how to say yes. No, but I mean yes, but I mean yes, but I mean no.

[00:15:36]And there's a repetition that goes with it because if you otherwise you'll never go out.

[00:15:42]>> And whether you like it or not, >> you learn it. And now you don't have to learn it. You can swipe right.

[00:15:47]>> You never know that you've been rejected. So you don't have the awkwardness of rejection, which by the way, really important to learn. Yes.

[00:15:53]Especially later in life, things are not going to go exactly according to plan.

[00:15:57]And having the ability to like fall over and get back up is is a learned skill.

[00:16:02]>> We don't talk enough about social grit.

[00:16:04]>> Yeah.

[00:16:04]>> And social resilience. We talk about grit and resilience mentally in terms of working through something. But social resilience, having someone reject you or worse, I actually think ambivalence is worse than rejection.

[00:16:16]>> Yeah.

[00:16:16]>> Ambivalence is very confusing for awkward folks. Ambivalence is very hard at work. Right. A lot of my folks like I'm doing a corporate training and they'll say to me, "I don't know if my boss likes me and I can't live with that fact."

[00:16:28]>> Yeah. Because you can deal with bad news.

[00:16:29]>> I can deal with a toxic co-orker. Yeah.

[00:16:31]>> I can deal with a boss I hate. But I I don't know my boss >> and I don't know if I like them. And also I don't know if they like me.

[00:16:39]Ambulance >> or sometimes we don't like them because we've misinterpreted. We have a narrative they don't like us. So now I don't like them.

[00:16:44]>> And and then what do we want to do?

[00:16:45]Avoid anything that causes us any kind of confusion. Ambivalence and confusion is actually much harder to deal with socially than toxicity. So if someone is having >> confusing social interactions, especially at work, productivity goes down, engagement goes down. I call it friction, right? Like when I talk to companies where they're very focused, you know, bless them, on technology and tasks and productivity and I love all those things, but if you don't focus on your social connectedness at work, on the social skills of your organization, you are going to have so much friction that you're not going to get things done. Social friction happens when you have someone on the team who goes, I need help with this task. I don't know who to ask. I'll try AI. AI doesn't know. uh I could ask that colleague, but I don't really know that colleague. I never reach out to them. I'm afraid. I'm just going to not ask.

[00:17:35]>> And so all this friction of I'm not going to communicate. I'm going to miscommunicate. I don't know if they like me. We're in a team meeting, but I feel very uncomfortable. So, I'm going to underpresent my idea. Or worse, external communication. You go to meet with a client, and because you're so socially awkward, you do the idea poor, right? you don't present the idea in a beautiful way or you miss the mark because you're so wrapped up in your own head about your body language and your how you're coming across that you can't even present it. That's missed business.

[00:18:01]I think the same thing is happening socially where if we're not exercising social muscles, they will atrophy. I've been doing this for 20 years. This is the first time where I have students of five generations, right? I have 12year-old students and I have 90year-old students who are taking my classes. Never before have I had that.

[00:18:18]What I have learned is that oftentimes millennials, exers, boomers, they will be like, I'm uncomfortable. I'm awkward, but I'm going to try it and I'll try to figure out how to do it. Either I'd like it or I don't. My younger students are like, I'm going to craft my life and my career in a way where I don't have to try it.

[00:18:36]>> Avoid discomfort, >> right? And so, they'll just say, I'm really socially awkward and so I I have to work from home. I'm really socially awkward, so I'm going to make sure that uh I do all my socializing via WhatsApp or via apps. And they limit the number of friction >> interactions they're having. And it's very hard to practice social skills if you're not socializing.

[00:18:58]>> It's something that concerns me, which is the discomfort with being uncomfortable, >> right?

[00:19:02]>> And being uncomfortable is a fact of life. It's also um a normal social thing. There's many things that factor into discomfort. And to your point, which is I don't, you know, I'm socially awkward, so I'm just gonna I I have to work from home, but I prefer to work from home. I have to work from home. Or even just like if something doesn't go well at work or you get in trouble, you know, and we're not talking about toxicity here, you know, like very there very few sort of truly truly toxic workplaces where it's abusive and you're getting yelled at and demeaned and that you should be out of >> and you should be out of there in two seconds and that's not common.

[00:19:36]>> No, it's confusion.

[00:19:37]>> The term toxic is thrown about a little too loosely. That's really describing uncomfortable.

[00:19:42]>> You know, it's a toxic workplace. I'm like, you mean you got in trouble for screwing something up? You know, >> yeah, >> maybe your leader does or doesn't have the skills and maybe they bumbled and fumbled it, >> but it's just uncomfortable, >> right?

[00:19:54]>> I think one of the greatest competitive advantages anyone can have in a workplace >> is is knowing how to be okay being uncomfortable. To your point, you know, sales calls that go badly, it's uncomfortable. Being the one who makes it go badly, really uncomfortable. being on the receiving end of uncomfortable news, being the one who's giving the uncomfortable news, you know, and I've seen organizations that are dysfunctionally passive aggressive.

[00:20:18]>> Yes.

[00:20:19]>> Because nobody wants to be the person who gives >> feedback, right?

[00:20:24]>> And you see people have these meh careers because they just keep getting moved around because no one will tell them that they suck at something because they're too afraid of making them uncomfortable. me is the is the way that that is what we're facing is it's not toxicity, it's flatlining. Yeah.

[00:20:40]>> And I think that the way that I like to think about this is that >> having the right social interactions actually give you opportunity for growth. I've had a very weird career, but every inflection point in my entire career has come from a relationship. Not a skill.

[00:20:56]>> Yeah.

[00:20:57]>> Not a course.

[00:20:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every single inflection point was somebody reached out and said, "I have an idea or do you want to work with this thing on something or an editor coming backstage and saying, "I want to publish your book." All of those things happened because of a relationship. And as a competent science lover, that drives me crazy.

[00:21:15]>> I would rather just sit at home and work harder.

[00:21:18]>> Yeah.

[00:21:19]>> And I think that that's what makes me so sad is all of our students are very smart, very hardworking, and they're hoping they can do it without the socializing.

[00:21:28]>> Yeah. Yeah, >> but I think it's incredibly hard to be able to have not meh if you don't do that.

[00:21:32]>> There's so many things popping through my head. I love sitting down with you because you are uh affirming and reinforcing a lot of things that I stumbled on by accident in my career.

[00:21:42]So, I'll give you an example. I was a young entrepreneur and I would I'd come somebody fortunately gave me some feedback like you're coming on too strong >> you know and it's mainly discomfort and it's mainly insecurity and it's mainly like I got to close every deal that with everybody I meet immediately otherwise it's never going to happen you know and so too much right >> and so I I came up with a trick for myself I would only give someone my business card if they asked >> love it >> that was my rule if they didn't ask and I was sitting there some I want to give it so badly. So, I had to learn to create value, be charming, be nice to the point where they go, "Do you have a card?"

[00:22:21]>> Love it.

[00:22:22]>> And now it drives me nuts when somebody walks up and goes, "Hey, nice to meet you. Here's my card." I'm like, "Didn't ask for it."

[00:22:26]>> You didn't earn that.

[00:22:27]>> Didn't earn it. And you know, >> GSA, don't don't do that to me.

[00:22:31]>> But but it but it really helped me >> hone a skill, but it wasn't cuz I was like, I'm going to be charming. That wasn't the goal. No, >> the goal was how do I create an environment where they'll ask me for my business card or when I would have a first-time client meeting, >> my goal was not to close the deal. My goal was create an environment in which they will say yes to a second meeting >> or ask you for one.

[00:22:56]>> Yeah, either one.

[00:22:57]>> Did you have an inflection point in your career like the biggest inflection point if there was one? And was it relationshipbased?

[00:23:06]I don't know is the answer. I can't There's nothing that stands out that I can remember. But I just know that I I'm self-aware enough that if something's not working and I'm aware enough to know that I'm the only common factor.

[00:23:21]>> Yes.

[00:23:22]>> So if this thing's not working, I could blame everybody else.

[00:23:27]>> It's probably true.

[00:23:28]>> But on the rare exception that it might be me, let's go with that one. So yeah.

[00:23:32]No, no. I I was so like for example, if I'm struggling to close business, then it's got to be me, >> right?

[00:23:38]>> But the thing is, it wasn't the quality of my PowerPoint, it wasn't the quality of my email, it was the quality of the relationships that I could create and the conversations that I could have, right?

[00:23:45]>> So, it was still relationship based.

[00:23:47]>> I I think tricks for yourself work really well. In fact, this is another micro skill is like how do you get through the thing or the interaction?

[00:23:54]You reminded me of a trick that I used to do for myself that really helped is I also got feedback that talking to me that my conversations were like small talk. It was too much about fluff, wasn't about actual substance. And I was like, that's because I'm afraid to talk about substance. And so a trick that I gave myself is I want to pretend that I'm about to interview this person on stage and I have to introduce them. My social anxiety comes when I'm like aimless, like when I don't have a purpose in conversation because then we default to like what's the weather where you are? What's the weather where I am?

[00:24:22]So I was like, if I'm pretending that I'm about to walk on stage and introduce this person, the nature of my questions change because one, I'm listening very deeply. I'm listening to remember and that helped. But second, I was like, I need to find out the treasure about this person. I need to figure out something about this person that's interesting enough that I could go share with other people.

[00:24:41]>> And that completely changed the nature of my conversations and made them more enjoyable. I think I was awkward because I was having bad conversations, but that was my fault. As you said, I was the common denominator there. And so I the other thing that I like to teach students is you're in control of the type of social interactions you want to have, right? Like if you go in with a certain intention, you can create that intention. You just have to know how to do it. Like the backdoor into confidence. Like the backdoor is going in with very specific blueprints of how you want to interact, right? Like you have a basic blueprint of how you want a house to look. Every house is a little bit different. Maybe you can decorate differently, but you want to know your basic direction of where you're going in that house. And then the stuff you're teaching are some of those skills to get there which are learnable and practiceable >> if you're willing to be if you're willing to be uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:25]If you're willing to be uncomfortable.

[00:25:26]And I love um uh Susan Kane's definition of introversion versus extroversion which is it's not about social awkwardness or friendliness. It's about energy. Yes. Which is the introvert wakes up with five coins in the morning and every social interaction they spend a coin and by the end of the day they're depleted. The extrovert wakes up in the morning with no coins. every social interaction they get a coin and by the end of the day they feel rich and the reason I think that's important is because I know socially awkward and socially functional extroverts so do I also only know socially awkward and socially functional introverts absolutely right so that I can be friendly and charming and outgoing doesn't mean that I'm an extrovert >> it doesn't mean you're not spending coin >> it doesn't mean that I'm like like oh I can do it but I am shattered at the end right yes I also think that we have to add a layer to that and that that definition is foundational that most of us are ambverts.

[00:26:19]>> Yes, there's very small percentages of the of the population that are truly introverted and truly extroverted.

[00:26:24]>> And that definition for them isn't enough. Meaning they'll go, well, okay, I have five coins at the beginning of my day, but some people take a lot and some people give me a lot. And so the nuanced I think conversation we can have is if you think of it like a social battery is who charges you like who's letting you plug in and who's draining you, right?

[00:26:46]Like what's the app that drains you?

[00:26:47]>> And it's definitely with strangers too, right? There are some strangers that are exhausting and there's some strangers that I'm like I want to spend more time with you that are engaging and fun and probably took your class and do everything that you suggest, which is why they're so fun and engaging.

[00:26:58]>> Are you usually giving coins or taking coins? I have ADHD, which adrenaline is my best friend >> because I become lucid and I become calm when adrenaline pumps, which is one of the reasons I'm good on stage is because a I don't really have to talk to anybody.

[00:27:12]>> No, I love being on stage. It's so it's so lonely up there, but in a good way.

[00:27:14]>> And and I have the adrenaline pumping.

[00:27:16]So when I come off stage, I'm the friendliest, most charming, most incredible, fun, you know, >> totally, you know, >> I write all my best content right after I left stage.

[00:27:24]>> And everybody says to me, "Do you want a break?" before the next thing I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. If I take a break, I'll crash." No, no, no. keep me going, I'll crash at the end of the day.

[00:27:33]>> So, as long as the adrenaline's pumping, I'm golden. Sleep for me is also a big deal. If I don't get enough sleep, I'm not fun. I'm not inquisitive. I'm not curious.

[00:27:43]>> I think we should talk about this more.

[00:27:44]>> My ambversion, the problem with my ambversion, I agree. I think I think everyone's an ambbervert, right? To say I'm an interpreter actually is actually >> I think everyone's an silly, you know, I think everyone's an ambbervert and a lot of it is circumstantial to what you said, >> but that's good. Like I think we should be talking about this like we talk about our nutrition. I look I love self-care and fitness movements and we talk about fitness and nutrition a lot. We should be talking about our social fitness. We should be talking about friendship nutrition. There are meat friends, brisket friends who give you so much protein. They are just so good. We should know who those people are in our lives. We should know who those colleagues are in our lives. And then there are like cotton candy friends. You know those friends that feel good but they don't fill you up. like they give you a lot of that chemical burst of sugar, but it will root in your teeth, right, if you do it for too long.

[00:28:29]>> But you can have them for a treat.

[00:28:30]>> You can have them for a treat. So, I think like we talk a lot about our nutrition and what we're putting in our bodies, what we're doing to our bodies.

[00:28:37]We should be thinking the same way about our socializing. I like >> who who fills you, what fills you, where fills you, and when fills you, >> and who do you fill?

[00:28:48]>> Oh, >> I think you have to know I think you have to know what food group you are.

[00:28:52]>> Absolutely. And are you willing to give it? And because I, you know, and I can, again, in the spirit of ambberversion, I can be multiple food groups depending on who who I'm with >> and that can be dangerous. I have a friend who is dating and I said, "How's it going?" And she said, "You know, I can't tell on a date if I'm having fun or if I'm fun." And I realized that's a really interesting thing that some extroverts have this or I would say amberverts leaning extrovert where they are so socially adept and so fun. A lot of leaders have this that are very charismatic. You know those leaders that we work with that are very charismatic, man, they light up a room. They have trouble knowing the difference between are they creating all that charisma in the room and they're kind of giving it or are they actually having a good time and having connection.

[00:29:35]>> So, I'll tell you, I was so glad I got this feedback. I knew I was socially awkward and because I knew I was so afraid of not being fun and not being engaging, I would jack up with caffeine before I would go on dates.

[00:29:47]>> Okay, that's not great.

[00:29:49]>> I was great.

[00:29:51]fun. Fun for them.

[00:29:52]>> But I and I was so fun.

[00:29:55]>> Yes.

[00:29:55]>> But that was the problem.

[00:29:56]>> That was the problem.

[00:29:57]>> Which is I was the fun.

[00:29:59]>> That's right.

[00:29:59]>> And I went on a date and and I and it was fun. And she was laughing and I was laughing and it was fun. I was fun. And at the end of the day, I said to her, I'm like, "I had so much fun. I'd love to go out with you again." Yeah.

[00:30:08]>> And she said to me on the date, she goes, "Simon, I had a blast, but I do not want to go out with you again."

[00:30:12]>> I went, >> "What?"

[00:30:14]>> Uhhuh.

[00:30:14]>> She goes, "Too much. Too much.

[00:30:16]>> Too much.

[00:30:17]>> Like you're great. You're fun, but too much." And >> did it hurt?

[00:30:22]>> I No, I said thank you to her. I mean, yeah, of course it hurts, but I was so grateful. And I wish I got the feedback, you know, years before.

[00:30:28]>> Yes.

[00:30:29]>> Like objectively, I was fun.

[00:30:31]>> Yes.

[00:30:31]>> But I was the only one being fun because I didn't leave any space for anybody else to be fun, >> right?

[00:30:35]>> And I think we do that in sales calls too. I think people show up to like do the presentation. I mean, you know this data better than I do, which is the I I the average uh bad sales call, a salesperson will ask on average something like seven question. And the average good sales call, a sales person will ask an average 32 questions or something like that.

[00:30:53]>> That's it.

[00:30:53]>> You know, and it's like, let somebody else talk.

[00:30:57]>> Okay, but listen, I have Wait a minute.

[00:30:59]My turn. No, no, no, no. I have nuance.

[00:31:01]I have nuance here. Okay, so we're given this advice, right? I've asked a lot of questions. Okay, now a lot of students will come to me after they've gotten some of this advice and they're like, "It went really wrong." And I'm like, "Okay, let's look at the nuance here." I don't love that study. Here's why. the question study.

[00:31:18]>> Yep. I don't love it because look, I love asking more questions. That's great. But here is the problem. I think >> there are two types of people in the world >> that you have people who love entertaining >> and they want you to ask all the questions so they could tell their favorite stories. They're great charmers or great storytelling. They want the ball a lot in conversation.

[00:31:36]>> And then there are people and they're often VIPs typically who do not like to be asked questions.

[00:31:41]>> Like me for example, I do not like being asked a lot of questions. I want to listen to your stories. So, I want to be entertained. And so, what happens is if you go into interaction with someone and you just give them the question approach, one, it can be like an interrogation. And that's very inauthentic, >> especially if you're not really interested in the answers.

[00:32:00]>> And two, if you have someone who is a little bit more on the introverted side of that ambberversion >> and they are very intensely private, they will feel very pushed and you'll begin to spike their cortisol and spike their adrenaline. Like, I'm a even though I'm on social media, I'm a very private person. I'm adept at avoiding any personal questions. Very adept at it cuz I don't want to talk about anything personal. And so if when I'm in a situation where someone's asking for my life story, I'm like, I don't know you yet. So I think we have to be very careful with the way that we ask questions. Our intention, is it authentic or are we just trying to be charismatic? And two, do they like that?

[00:32:33]>> I think I think this is the a perfect summary of everything we're talking about here, which is it's about authenticity. And we confuse the intention with the instruction. And it goes back to my business card thing, which is my goal wasn't to be more charming. My goal was to create conditions in which they would ask me for my business card, right? But if I simply set out be more charming, I'd do all the tricks and it wouldn't be authentic. Right.

[00:32:54]>> And I think you're right. I don't have a problem per se with the study about the seven versus the 30ome questions for the salesperson. But we're confusing the intention, which is curiosity. It has nothing to do with how many questions you ask.

[00:33:06]>> Right. You know, like 32 questions, check.

[00:33:08]>> Exactly. It has nothing to do with you could ask three incredibly good questions and you're golden.

[00:33:13]>> And it's not about the questions, it's about the curiosity. And on average, people who are more curious are probably more likely to ask more questions, but it's the curiosity, not the questions.

[00:33:23]You have to know why you're doing all of these things, not just not just do the things cuz you can teach the checklist and it doesn't make somebody >> then and then this and then this.

[00:33:31]>> It doesn't make somebody interesting or engaging >> and then it's it's it's it becomes actually manipulative, >> right? So, it's intention curious. And the second piece that I think we always forget is decoding their cues. If you've asked a very well-intentioned, authentic question, and you see fear, so the whites of their eyes flicker at you, they immediately lean back and maybe they do a blocking behavior or they begin to self soothe. Something about your question just made them uncomfortable. The last thing I want to do for someone else in conversation is make them uncomfortable because that's how I often feel. I don't want to give that to someone else. So, if you read their cues and you're like, "Oh, whoa. I just saw a little cluster of fear, discomfort, a little blocking. You can take the ball back and be like, "Oh, you know, for example, here's my story." Or, you know, gosh, that was too too much too fast. Let's try again. You can actually >> you can try, you can get a do.

[00:34:20]>> Yeah. And you can respect someone enough to say, I want to connect with you so much that I want to do it at your pace.

[00:34:27]I have the intention to get to know you.

[00:34:29]I have the intention to be curious, but I want to do it at a pace that you're comfortable with. That I think is real connection. And we forget that last reading piece. And that's why you have people who say, you know, I tried asking the five questions and they didn't work with my and I'm like, well, what did their face do? What did their body do?

[00:34:45]Did they did they use vocal fry? Like what was going on for them? Interaction is two-way.

[00:34:50]>> Yeah.

[00:34:50]>> You can only learn so many things one way.

[00:34:52]>> Yeah.

[00:34:54]How do you define authenticity?

[00:34:57]>> Intention matches action.

[00:35:02]Intention matches action. like what you want matches what you're doing and matches what you're saying and matching with what you're asking. I think it's inauthentic if someone's like, I'm going to get this business from them, but I'm going to act like they're my friend.

[00:35:14]Intention does not match action. You wanted to add value. Your business card trick is I would call that wanting to add value to this person so much so they want to connect more. I love that approach to interaction. Your intention was matching what you were trying to do.

[00:35:30]I think what happens a lot of the time is people very well-meaning and this I see this all the time in corporate is someone's intention is to be respected is to not be underestimated is to be taken seriously that's a lot of folks who come to me feel like they've been underestimated overlooked and interrupted so their intention is good and then they try to learn these tricks to be taken seriously and so they lower their voice like Elizabeth Holmes and then they act like they're faking it till they make I think that if your action feels fake and manipulative, it's going to come across and it's not going to match your intention. I think that's where people get into trouble.

[00:36:07]>> Also, it's selfish, >> you know, which is I'm going to do all these things so that people like me more.

[00:36:13]>> Ah, yeah.

[00:36:14]>> Versus I'm going to offer value.

[00:36:16]>> Value. There you go.

[00:36:17]>> I'm going to do something for you.

[00:36:18]>> Yeah.

[00:36:18]>> And my my metric of that I've done something for you is you'll say yes to a meeting, you'll ask me for a business card or you'll give me your business.

[00:36:27]Yeah. You know, all of these things are metrics and proof of perception of value.

[00:36:32]>> I like it because we talked I was talking about social fitness. What if we I mean, I'm just thinking out loud, but like what if you thought about social metrics, right? Like what means that your intentions matching your action is like people are wanting to spend time with you. People feel like you're being helpful to them. People say to you, "Wow, I've loved spending time with you." Those are all the metrics that you're going for.

[00:36:50]>> I mean, look, you and I know it from being in the world, right? which is if you're an entrepreneur or a salesperson or you do anything that has some sort of collection metric whether it's money or followers or what you know >> which is you can manipulate people and trick people and get people to click or buy or any of these things >> but the problem is the metric >> right which is if you're driven by the metric >> right >> then you will find ways to drive the metric >> but if you are driven to create authenticity and to create value and offer people something money is the byproduct of being part of something larger than yourself and so Of course, I look at book sales and I look at, you know, I look at those things, but only over the course of time.

[00:37:28]>> Yeah.

[00:37:29]>> I'm not interested in any of my metrics in in snapshots. I'm not interested in the week or the month because they don't tell me anything, >> right?

[00:37:36]>> You know, I want to know that those things are doing well over time because that to me over time is proof of value.

[00:37:42]I don't get any friends to write fake reviews on Amazon. I don't get everybody to buy a book within the same hour to spike my Amazon sales on. I know all the tricks. I know what other authors do.

[00:37:51]But then how do you know you've done good work, >> right?

[00:37:53]>> And I'm more interested in knowing that I've done good work.

[00:37:55]>> I was just thinking about this as you said it. So there was a long time with my social media and social media has been a real interesting for me because I started on YouTube and then all these other things came about and I was frustrated a couple years back with my metrics, right? I did not feel like we were growing as as fast as I was putting in effort for it. And I kept looking, you know, I'd refresh my feed and like metrics aren't growing, metrics aren't growing. So I was like no more. I told my team I was like aggressively helpful.

[00:38:21]Our new measure is aggressively helpful.

[00:38:24]If we're going to put out a video, my mission is to put out free public education every single day. That's what we do. Free public education every single day on social skills so that anyone could learn social skills no matter what. Okay, I love views and engaging, don't get me wrong, but like the metric is is this video aggressively helpful or funny? Because I think funny is also helpful in its own way in this in this world, right? We need to have a little bit of laughter.

[00:38:45]>> Funny is a value, >> right? So that became the new metric and everything changed.

[00:38:50]>> Of course, >> content became easier. Of course, our socials exploded. Like, of course, >> it's more fun.

[00:38:54]>> I think that if you can think of that in your interactions, is it aggressively helpful? Is it adding value? Is it offering wisdom? Is it being kind? Is it being a good listener? And in real life, it's one thing on socials, but in real life, you still have to read the room >> very much >> because like, you know, again, I've been on the receiving end. Yeah. And probably been on the giving end, too. But, you know, where I'm just like, I'm good.

[00:39:17]>> I appreciate all the help. I'm good. You know, >> uh that would be >> unsolicited advice.

[00:39:21]>> Thank you for bringing this up. This is another piece of advice where if you don't do the second intention, right?

[00:39:26]Someone wants to help you. And actually, what they're probably thinking is, I want Simon to like me, so I'm going to be helpful. Okay? So, someone comes into an interaction with you and they're wanting to be helpful. And that's a good intention, but they don't read you, which is, "I'm good. It's too much. I don't need the help." And they keep going. And that actually ends up making you uncomfortable.

[00:39:43]>> I just watched it happen a few days ago where a I was talking to a friend of mine. It was at an event and um a guy uh walked up and made a very generous offer to her. And she was like, "Yeah, actually I' I'd be up for that. Thank you." And if he just walked away, he would have been good.

[00:40:06]>> What happened?

[00:40:06]>> And then he made another offer. And she's like, "Okay." And then he like pulls a a gift out of his bag and like, "You should try this." And it's like it got to the point where like she needed rescuing. He was so nice and so generous and so kind. Yeah.

[00:40:22]>> And he and he kept going and going and going. I used to be that young entrepreneur. And I remember I when I was a young entrepreneur and I I I brought in a she was my work mom at my previous job and I brought her in as a freelancer to come work with me now and then I brought her to a new business pitch with me >> and I made my pitch and the pitch went great >> and then I kept pitching >> and she leans she leans over to me and she says put the shoes in the box.

[00:40:47]>> Yes.

[00:40:48]>> You know. Yes.

[00:40:49]>> And so I'm keenly aware now like all these little pieces of advice that people have given me that have become like stuck in my head. So, like I'm constantly paying attention. Okay, I'm done. I made the sale.

[00:40:59]>> Put the shoes in the box. I'm done.

[00:41:00]>> You know, I have more to say, but don't worry about it.

[00:41:02]>> And read the room.

[00:41:02]>> And read the room.

[00:41:03]>> And and I and I'll sometimes say to people, put the shoes in the box. Like, no way. You're done.

[00:41:08]>> Are you okay giving that feedback?

[00:41:10]Because I will tell you one of the hardest things I think as of being a manager is giving constructive feedback.

[00:41:15]You don't have a problem with that.

[00:41:17]>> You can tell. I wouldn't I would never have the guts to tell someone to put >> lean over, whisper to whisper in their ear, put their shoes in the box.

[00:41:23]>> I don't think I could do it.

[00:41:25]I think it's Why would you not tell them?

[00:41:27]>> I would tell them maybe after.

[00:41:28]>> But it's the difference between them getting the sale and not getting the sale in the moment because they're about to screw it up.

[00:41:32]>> I love it. I I love it. And I love that you have the courage to do it and you don't feel awkward about it.

[00:41:36]>> Maybe. I don't know.

[00:41:38]>> But you still do it. Oh, I love >> I think feedback should generally be given not in the situation, right?

[00:41:43]People can't hear feedback in the middle, right? You know, >> while you're filming and be like, "Hey, next time." No, no, no, no.

[00:41:50]wait till the end and then you know but this is one of those circumstances where you have to do it in the middle >> that's a micro social skill so that ability you shouldn't take it for granted because your ability to say I care about this person so much that I'm actually going to give them this feedback in the middle of this pitch that takes a tremendous amount of courage and it also takes a tremendous amount of social grace >> somebody did it for me >> ah there you go >> so would I have had the courage if somebody didn't do it for me who knows right but because somebody did it for me >> I can't pay her back, but I can pay it forwards. Yeah, >> that but that is a social skill that we shouldn't ignore these microsocial skills because those are incredibly empowering for you and for them, right?

[00:42:29]Like you know that was the right thing.

[00:42:30]You can think back and think, I'm so glad I did that. Even though it was awkward, I still did it.

[00:42:35]>> This is such an awkward conversation and uncomfortable conversation. I'll tell you why.

[00:42:38]>> Okay, tell.

[00:42:39]>> Right. Uh this and this.

[00:42:40]>> Are you mad at me? No. Okay.

[00:42:42]>> I wouldn't tell you. Oh, now I'm screwing with your head. I know. I know.

[00:42:45]No, that was cruel. Sorry.

[00:42:47]>> No, I'm not mad. Here's why this is an uncomfortable conversation. It just sort of struck me and I know you deal with this all the time, which is >> no matter how much you say, "I really want to give people value and I really want to serve and I really want to do this." At the end of the day, you cannot separate all of our inherent desire to be liked, included, seen, heard, understood, belonged. You can't separate it. And so there is a selfishness or an insecurity that goes along even when we offer value, even when it's genuine, even when it's authentic. And even though that might not be the driving, it's in the recipe. It's in the mix.

[00:43:25]>> And so I guess the question isn't negating or ignoring the fact that there is >> even if it's just cuz it feels nice, >> right, to be included >> and socially safe >> and socially safe. And it seems like it should be really, really simple to quote unquote just be yourself. But it's a It is a very complex, messy, awkward, >> changing thing.

[00:43:50]>> Yes.

[00:43:51]>> And and this is why I love your uh prescription, which is do it small and do it in safe places and learn what it feels like and then you'll get good at it, >> right?

[00:44:05]>> And the idea of practicing being authentic with your friends. Start with your friends.

[00:44:09]>> Yes.

[00:44:09]>> Cuz your friends love you.

[00:44:10]>> Yes.

[00:44:10]>> I'll add one new nuance. I don't know if you I always especially at work I always recommend telling people what you're doing. So if you've taken a course or read a book or seen a talk and got some advice, >> tell everybody, >> "Hey guys, I took this course.

[00:44:24]>> I'm going to start using your names more often because I was told that using your name is more important than not using or it makes you feel seen and heard. So I'm going to practice it.

[00:44:32]>> Tell me if it goes too far. Tell me if it feels good. But you're going to see me acting differently than you're used to cuz I'm going to try this new thing."

[00:44:39]>> And people love that. They love it.

[00:44:41]>> But otherwise, they're going to be totally weirded out that you're doing all these things and they don't know where it's coming from.

[00:44:44]>> One step further. If you are learning body language or microp expressions, you definitely want to tell people because it goes like this. Hey, I'm taking this course on learning how to read facial expressions. And so, I'm going to be practicing that. Do you want to take it with me so you can read my facial expressions, too? Because a funny thing happens when you begin to read the room.

[00:45:03]Right? Like we were literally talking about step one is intention. Step two is literally reading all the micro cues of discomfort, all the micro cues of anxiety. Let me tell you, if you start doing that without people knowing, they're going to be like, "What? You see me?" Right. You want to warn them and you want them to come with you.

[00:45:19]>> Yeah.

[00:45:19]>> Right. You want them to practice with you. I also think the advice of like just be yourself or be authentic.

[00:45:25]>> It's annoying advice.

[00:45:26]>> It's >> It's true. It's just not It's just not helpful.

[00:45:29]>> I'm going to take it one step further.

[00:45:31]If you tell someone to be themselves and they don't like themselves, it's cruel.

[00:45:37]>> And this was me for a long time. How can you be yourself if you don't like yourself? And so that advice makes me upset because I'm thinking you're telling someone to try to to show up as something that they don't like. And so, yes, I think that there's a very fine line between being likable and being authentic. And the line is manipulation, right? Like it's easy to tip.

[00:46:04]>> I think if you are trying to find these moments where you feel actually good about yourself. Most of my students are very smart and very talented but there's a part of themselves that doesn't like themselves.

[00:46:13]>> By the way, that's everyone.

[00:46:15]>> That's everyone to to different measures. It's everyone, right? So if I can say when is a moment in conversation at work or with your friends where you feel really good about yourself? That's what we're looking for is like you feel really good about yourself. And yes, that's a little bit selfish, but that also is going to trigger more confidence. It's going to trigger more flow. And so these micro social skills, these micro strengths are actually just a way for me to say there are parts of yourself that you can like. And that's what we should be highlighting.

[00:46:45]>> What specific thing happened in your life that you made the conversion from not liking yourself to liking yourself?

[00:46:51]Um, probably meeting my husband. I met my husband at age 20. So, we've been together for 20 years. And I was peak awkward when he met me. And he just never left. In attachment theory, I'm like avoidant, dismissive. And so, I learned very young to just avoid and be independent.

[00:47:16]>> And when I was awkward.

[00:47:18]>> Yeah. And so when I was awkward or I did something wrong and he would give me all kinds of feedback. My awkwardness comes out as um overquesting, my awkwardness comes out as um trying to overcompensate. And he would literally say to me like a version of too much.

[00:47:33]And he didn't leave though.

[00:47:34]>> He would give me the feedback and then be like, "Well, going to try again next time." Or I would leave a party and be like, "I think everyone's angry at me."

[00:47:41]And he'd be like, "I don't think they're angry, but I think she's angry at you and here's why." He never left. And then he was like, "Let's do this forever."

[00:47:48]And I was like, "Really?" And that really surprised me because he saw me through all my early business years, all my socially awkward years, you know, I met him in college. That wasn't a moment. It was I was really shocked when he just wanted to stay with me.

[00:47:59]>> So you believed him.

[00:48:00]>> I believed him cuz he didn't want to go.

[00:48:02]>> So the minute you believe that people like you for you and that sometimes people are angry at you and that's okay, too.

[00:48:07]>> Yes. then you liked yourself because if he didn't stick around then you would reinforce the narrative to yourself that I'm clearly a bad person not a nice there's nothing to like because no one likes me >> and no one stays >> no one stays >> I was truly shocked when he proposed I was like truly shocked I was like you why would you want to marry >> did you believe him the first time he said I love you >> no I didn't >> how many times did he have to say what did he have to do to prove it to you that not prove it to you that's the wrong >> moved I did not believe him you could still think he's nuts and insane and crazy.

[00:48:39]>> When he moved, I was like, "You want to be near me?"

[00:48:42]>> Right. So, was that was >> that that started to believe, >> but it took me six years six years to be able to commit only cuz I was afraid.

[00:48:53]>> So, you're talking about something more beautiful than I think the entire conversation we've had, >> which is the act of service.

[00:49:04]>> Yeah.

[00:49:06]of helping people see the good in themselves starts with our desire to see the good in others.

[00:49:13]>> Yeah.

[00:49:13]>> And when we enter a meeting, when we go on a date, we look for all the bad things. We look for everything that's wrong, why this person's not right for me, why I can't be with them, and we'll go down the list. And it is simply a mindset.

[00:49:30]>> Simply go, I'm going to find all the things I actually really like about this person, >> and I'm going to keep doing it. There's plenty of time for me to find out the things I don't like or won't work. So, I'll get there, >> but I'm just going to do good.

[00:49:42]>> And that choice is the most generous thing you can do for someone.

[00:49:51]There's an irony in it, right?

[00:49:52]>> If I choose to only see the good in you, at some point you'll believe me. It reinforces that we cannot live without each other.

[00:50:00]this entire conversation of how can I be likable and how can I build my social grit and how can I have a conversation it's all very me me >> right >> and rather to go through life and saying you know what how can I help somebody else feel not awkward how can I help somebody else feel normal >> in fact I wouldn't even say feel not awkward because it reinforces the awkward how can I help someone feel normal >> what touched a nerve when did you will I think that it actually takes courage to search for good in people because right now we're very focused on what's wrong with everyone.

[00:50:41]>> But what touched a nerve with you?

[00:50:43]>> I think that he all my bad, my awkwardness, my difficulty. He was like, I still see good in you >> and we can figure it out. I took so long for me to believe that >> and that was extremely kind and I still feel that. That's what kind of makes me emotional. It's like I still feel like he has to sometimes put up with me, you know, and he still is like I'm here, you know, and I'm like how generous because his generosity allows me to be brave socially. It allows me to be brave in business. Like I started my company three months after I met him >> because you had the courage. I had the courage because I had a base and I was also thinking >> you felt not alone.

[00:51:27]>> I felt not alone and that I wouldn't be alone >> even if the business failed.

[00:51:31]>> And that's by the way that's where courage comes from which is you only need one person in your life who's like I got you and even if it goes sideways I'll be with you.

[00:51:38]>> That's it.

[00:51:39]>> You know >> and I I did have a failed business.

[00:51:41]>> Yeah.

[00:51:42]>> Like my first book completely failed.

[00:51:44]Published book. Thought it was going to change my life. Completely failed. Had a breakdown. Thought my life and career was over. But he was there. He was like, "Let's try something else."

[00:51:54]>> Tell you an experiment I did. A friend of mine was going through it. Like life was not good.

[00:52:00]>> Her business wasn't doing well.

[00:52:02]>> Her marriage was on the rocks.

[00:52:04]>> Just like she wasn't enjoying being a mom. She couldn't get a break.

[00:52:08]>> And so she knows what I do. And so she's like, "Can you?" And I was like, "I would be honored." And so every Wednesday we got together for 90 minutes >> and I coached her >> and she'd feel amazing when she left.

[00:52:19]And about a day or two would go by and then I'd see her the following week and she felt like [ __ ] again. And this went on for months. She'd feel she'd get a spike after we spent time and then it would diminish over the course of the week and then, you know, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. And I realized this is it's not working, you know.

[00:52:37]>> Right. Right. Right.

[00:52:38]>> Um, so I looked into my own work and I know about like sort of alcoholics anonymous and the 12th step is to help another alcoholic and service is the thing, right? So, I I well-intentioned and I didn't tell her what I was doing, but I I had this theory. I'm like, I'm going to get her to help me. So, I said to her, "Hey, look, we're getting together every week. I'm helping you.

[00:52:56]I'm love doing it. I trust you. I love you. You know me really well. I'd love to get your input on my stresses, too."

[00:53:02]Which was true. It wasn't performative.

[00:53:04]I said, "Why don't we do 45 minutes each every every week?" She agreed.

[00:53:09]>> And we started with me. It just happened to go 90 minutes. And then the next week we started with me. It just happened to go 90 minutes. And then the next week we started with me and it just happened to go 90 minutes. And before I knew it, within weeks, not months, >> her marriage was back on track. Her company was thriving. She was loving being a mom again. And it was working.

[00:53:29]And it's that's when I learned the power of service. It's my favorite advice to follow. It's also my favorite advice to give, which is instead of trying to solve your problem, help somebody solve the problem you're struggling with. So if you're awkward, help somebody else overcome their awkwardness.

[00:53:43]>> If you're, you know, that's why, you know, that's your career.

[00:53:48]>> I feel awkward. The only antidote to my awkwardness is helping other people feel less awkward.

[00:53:52]>> Oh. To help people feel normal.

[00:53:53]>> That's it.

[00:53:54]>> Right. I think that perfectly summarizes what authenticity means, what value means, what generosity means. All these things that can be manipulated, misunderstood, or misapplied. I think at the core is if you genuinely are trying to help somebody else, like you can't make friends, help somebody else make a friend.

[00:54:08]>> Right? You know, >> you're awkward going to a party, >> help someone else who feeling awkward, >> right? Go to the person standing in the corner.

[00:54:14]>> That's it. That's the next thing is like you were talking about where to we were talking about where to stand earlier. Go help someone who looks really awkward.

[00:54:20]>> Yeah. The opportunity to take the spotlight off yourself, which means you're not stuck in your head and you're not worried about all of the tricks and the the things you've learned, but and you can bumble and fumble it because you know what? You're there with the generosity of your heart. And I think that is what you got, which is somebody else. You were just dumb luck that you happened to trip over and meet somebody >> who was so keen to help you be the person you want to be >> because he's a a person of service >> and you ended up loving yourself, >> you know, finding confidence, building a business, writing another book, all of these things.

[00:54:56]>> Yes.

[00:54:57]>> It and it it is the most beautiful thing in the world. And the only thing you want to do when you meet somebody like that is give back, >> right? And so it is reciprocal, but it takes one of you to start.

[00:55:06]>> I also think that this is the test of every relationship in your life.

[00:55:10]>> Yeah.

[00:55:10]>> If you don't feel that you could be of service to them, if you don't feel you could authentically help them find their good and support them, the relationship is not going to work.

[00:55:20]>> And to recognize that the metrics aren't the same, right, of what you give and what you receive don't have to be the same. It's not it's not apples to apples. So I mean, I'll give you an example. There's a couple friends of mine that I met a few years ago that I couldn't understand why they were friends with me. They're way more successful than me. They're way more successful than me. They're like, they're dynamic. They're way smarter than me. They're way more social me.

[00:55:42]They're way better connected than >> There's so many things wrong with this.

[00:55:45]No.

[00:55:45]>> And I literally would hang out with them. I'd have a good time. And then I'd walk away going, I don't understand. My mistake was I was comparing my value on their playing field, >> right? But the value that I brought wasn't on their playing field, which is why I had value.

[00:56:00]>> The thing that they liked about me was the thing they couldn't get from all their other successful fancy friends, >> right?

[00:56:06]>> Because I didn't want anything from them.

[00:56:08]>> I I brought something completely different to the table. Like I don't believe in strengths and weaknesses.

[00:56:14]>> And I think when people's like, "What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses?" It's a bad conversation to have. Mhm.

[00:56:19]>> Um because I we all have attributes and characteristics and in some circumstances they'll show up as strengths and in some circumstances they'll show up as weaknesses. And the hack for life is know what your characteristics and attributes are. Know in what circumstances they manifest as strengths and then put yourself in that situation as often as possible. That's right.

[00:56:37]>> So for example, let's go back to all of the stuff you've been teaching. Right? I know that I am terrible at holding court and I do not like crowds.

[00:56:44]>> Agreed.

[00:56:44]>> But when you put me oneon-one, I'm a freaking machine. So, guess what I try and do more often than not? One-on-one, >> right? Why? Because I'm just going to naturally be better. Yeah.

[00:56:53]>> So, I can learn all the tricks.

[00:56:55]>> Yeah.

[00:56:56]>> But they're always going to be inauthentic. I'm always going to be not as good as somebody who's naturally good in those circumstances. So, why would I compete on that playing field?

[00:57:03]>> Why?

[00:57:04]>> Agreed.

[00:57:04]>> I'm going to go compete where my natural abilities show up as strengths over here, not over there.

[00:57:10]>> And remember, there's always room for growth.

[00:57:12]>> Of course. So yes, you show up where you're already strong, where you're already good. Part one. Part two is maybe I could be good at that >> and I have to push my boundaries.

[00:57:23]Otherwise, I'm stuck in I have to work from home because I'm right. But again, it's the attributes and the characteristics. And then the opportunity is not I know these three places. I'm only going to do these three places. My my goal is okay, I know these three, >> right?

[00:57:37]>> Now, where are all the others? Which means I have to put myself in situations that it doesn't go well two, three, four, five times because I can't trust it once. It's like, I've tried sushi once, I didn't like it. I'm like, no, no, no, you got to try it a few times.

[00:57:48]Right.

[00:57:48]>> Right. And so the opportunity for life is to find as many places as possible because the more places you can find where your characteristics and attributes show up as strengths means you're stronger in more places.

[00:57:59]>> And who brings them out in you? By the way, things that I used to be good at, I'm no longer good at >> there. That's true, too, >> right? Age changes things. People in your life changes things. Like when I became a mom, all of a sudden I became very good at certain things and very bad at certain things. And so it also implies that our strengths and weaknesses are fixed. They are not.

[00:58:15]>> Yeah. Which is why you have to keep putting yourself in situations and being good at being uncomfortable.

[00:58:19]>> Yes.

[00:58:19]>> I could talk to you forever.

[00:58:21]>> This is so This is so the opposite of uncomfortable.

[00:58:25]>> This is really wonderful. Thanks for being so open and even being willing to tell me something personal.

[00:58:29]>> My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[00:58:31]>> I really appreciate it.

[00:58:32]>> As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. You can also watch a bit of optimism on Spotify. And remember, Spotify premium users can enjoy the show ad free. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.