£200k/month Energy Solutions but facing Cash Flow, Hiring & Growth Challenges

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]How many bloody calls have you had from brokers trying to sell you solar panels for your roofs, EV charging, and all of that stuff? Well, good news. Today, we've got a business that does just that. Well, they don't do the annoying calls, but they do all the big installations. You know, they've done very well. They're doing 2.5 million a year in revenue, and they've only been going 5 years. They want to take the business to the next level, double it in size, and get it ready for sale. All of that is coming up in today's show. So, strap yourselves in. Let's go. This show is supported by Revolute Business, the all-in-one business account to manage your finances. Whether you've just started out already running a large company, Revolute Business has got the tools for you to grow and scale your business. Let's get into the show.

[00:00:41]Welcome back to the business broadcast.

[00:00:42]This is the podcast designed to grow your business. I'm joined today by Christian Day from Ipsswitch and he's got an energy company. We're going to talk to him about his business. We got some challenges as always gang. Three big challenges in the business. Number one is your biggest challenge is growth.

[00:00:58]Number two is cash flow. Number three is recruiting. Where do they want to be in one year's time? They want to double their turnover again. But where are they now? They've been going just a shake over five, six years. They're doing 200,000 of revenue each and every month.

[00:01:09]So it's a 2.5 million pound business. 14 people in the business. Michael Chudley who's joining me as producer. Half of them are doing uh installing and maintenance of EV chargers, solar panels, and battery storage. So, they're looking to save businesses on their money. The other half of the team, around seven of them, are doing sales and marketing and running the organization. It's a partnership between Christian and his lover in business. Uh, which his name, I think, is Gary. Is that right, Christian? Gary. Um, >> what would your business look like when it's finished? And they said, "Ready for sale, making about half a million quid a year profit. Uh, how do you spend your day-to-day time with your business, sales and marketing? questions that you'd like to ask me are coming at the end. Interesting thing Chad you see this you know you can have a really profitable business and people don't understand this you know like we got a business here it's profitable half a million pound second biggest challenge is cash flow if you're looking to grab a team uh you're starting to do big projects and you need to invest into infrastructure and stuff like that it all just disappears um that's a big challenge for business owners and entrepreneurs ch I've just seen um that my laptop is going low battery low battery I don't know if you can in the wings try and sort that out for us.

[00:02:26]Right. Okay. But before we do that gang, a couple of little things I'd like to mention. If you are this here um regular of this podcast, we've got the retreat coming up. This is where I take a bunch of entrepreneurs to the south of France in Provence. Uh these are really good entrepreneurs and business owners and uh I teach them all the stuff that I've learned over the last 20 years to help grow your business. If you'd like to join me on the retreat or indeed any of my seminars, uh why not find out full details at jamesinclair.net. So if you want to buy companies, do commercial property and everything in between in the sphere of entrepreneurship and business, you will absolutely love the retreat and also business masterclass which we're putting out as well. So all details of my events are on jamesinclair.net. With that being said though, I think it's a knock at the door and it's time for this >> interesting quote.

[00:03:15]Interesting quote or fact. Interesting quote or fact. It's time for the interesting quote or fact of the week.

[00:03:22]>> Yes, indeed. It's time for the interesting quote or fact of the week.

[00:03:25]Now, I I my loves had something very interesting get sent to me and I just love this. This is a quote uh that got sent to me and I thought this was very good. Ch if you get if if you can hear in the wings here. Um should I do quote or fact first? I've got both.

[00:03:43]>> Quote. He's going for quotes. Um, and I saw this someone, an entrepreneur messaged me called Toby Aridola sent me this on Instagram and he said this for entrepreneurship. You'll be alone in the most difficult times of your life. These times will make you wise, mature, and fearless. You'll be alone in the most difficult times of your life. These times will make you wise, mature, and fearless.

[00:04:07]I read that. I was had a cup of tea this morning on my own at 6:15 under some trees under a bench that I've got in my garden. Uh and I read that and I thought, "Oh, I'm alone." And I was having a moment of contemplation. You know what I like to call it, Chance?

[00:04:21]>> Go on.

[00:04:22]>> A coffee contemplation.

[00:04:24]>> Nice. Yeah, it's always a little bit healthy.

[00:04:26]>> Yeah. Nice nice trees over here. Uh just alone at your thoughts. There's something about being early in the morning with no one else around. Uh, it's a very interesting place to be.

[00:04:38]Okay. Right. Uh, and this comes from uh, someone that sent this in. Do you know who sent this in, Chance?

[00:04:43]>> I found it.

[00:04:44]>> Oh, you found it.

[00:04:45]>> Someone sent you this.

[00:04:45]>> It's come from Michael Chudley. This has come from Michael Chudley. Um, now the Master Shop. Um, which is a golfing event, isn't it, Chance?

[00:04:54]>> Yeah, they're masters. Yeah, >> the Masters. Is that the biggest golfing event of the year?

[00:04:57]>> I don't know much about golf, honestly.

[00:04:59]>> Like the World Cup for golf?

[00:05:00]>> I don't know.

[00:05:01]>> Must be. Must be. I saw just for context, I saw this on LinkedIn, so take that for what you will.

[00:05:07]>> Do you know what? I just got my zeros in a muddle here. Now, this master shop only opens eight days a year. An interesting fact here. It makes blank each day it's opened blank per second.

[00:05:20]Average spend is thought to be around blank per person. So, if you're listening and watching this before I reveal the blanks, uh just get it in your mind's eye. What do you reckon it is? The master shops are the one of the biggest golfing events in the world. It only opens eight days a year. And every day that it's open, how much does it make in total per day? That's what it is per second. And what is the average spend perhead per person? Okay, here come the answers, gang. Here come the answers. It makes on average 10 million each day it's open in dollars, but pounds, dollars, we don't mind. We don't mind as long as it's not rupees. Um, and that's $277 per second. And the average spend is thought to be $1,000 per person. There you go. Wow. Look at that. Do you know I tell you something? I interesting fact.

[00:06:08]I was in the DJI Hasselblad shop in just off Region Street. Chud's any uh regular Camry person. Hasselblad's like this big massive brand, but also DJI is I think quite mainstream. I think most people know what that brand is. So, I was in there and I was watching people spending some serious money. And I nearly didn't spend any money in there because they didn't have air conditioning. And I thought, if you've got a business shop like that where people are spending thousands of money, comfort, comfort's very important. I nearly left because I was getting a bit sweaty in there. I didn't want to take my coat off and I just That's another interesting fact or quote the week for you. I think you must make sure the environments are good. Uh, right.

[00:06:49]>> But you did buy something, didn't you?

[00:06:51]>> Yeah. Because I was on I was I was going in there with intention cuz I research >> I think most people going in there are going in with intention.

[00:06:59]>> Do you think?

[00:07:00]>> Absolutely.

[00:07:00]>> If for a hassleblad no one's >> Yeah. They're what at least five grand the cheapest product they've got.

[00:07:06]>> Yeah.

[00:07:06]>> Same with the DJI though. I don't think you're browsing DJI. No.

[00:07:10]>> I think you're going knowing that you want to buy something.

[00:07:12]>> I would say that if it wasn't on region street I think a lot of people peruse around.

[00:07:17]>> Yeah, they probably do. Yeah. It's a very strange location for such a niche camera shop.

[00:07:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I don't know why they put it there. So, they obviously do want passing for for traffic because they could be, you know, in the back end because they've got such big fans, haven't they? But yeah. Okay. That that that's um interesting fact or quote of the week. Done.

[00:07:35]>> Um right, let's move on to Christian Day and his business. Christian, welcome to the business broadcast. I'm James Sinclair, your Christian Day. Have a nice day. Um tell us about your business. You got 30 seconds. Off you go. Uh so my name is Christian Day, the MD of Insight Energy based in Ipsswitch.

[00:07:51]We're a BC Corp certified business uh taking care of energy needs and uh reducing costs for businesses across the UK. So we install solar, battery storage, and EV charging infrastructure.

[00:08:03]>> Beautiful. Sounds fantastic. Uh that was a I'd love that. Just was nice and concise there. Thank you. We appreciate that. Right. I've got a sheet here with all your challenges. Um, so so just actually before we do that, before we do that, what is your typical avatar customer? Is it a pub? Is it an office?

[00:08:22]>> Uh, no. It's a really good question. So we call it an ICP. So an ideal customer profile. Um, it's a a portfolio client.

[00:08:30]So owner occupiers typically uh multiple properties um anywhere between sort of maybe 10 to 50 employees. um they've got multiple properties across the UK and they've got a relatively high energy consumption. So mo most businesses probably um sort of underestimate how much they consume. They often get an energy bill, they'll take a view and go, "Oh, that just seems expensive." And very rarely look into the detail. Um so we we we focus on that market. Um there's a there's a few different markets. You've almost got the CNI sort of large utility scale, you know, the big solar farms that you see in the across the the countryside. Um, and then you've got kind of, you know, commercial buildings, uh, big warehouses, um, you know, business parts mainly, um, which we focus on. And then you've got the rest of it will lump it all into one, which is the the domestic market. Um, so, you know, homeowners, um, some sometimes big properties, but traditionally they're they're homeowners. Um, obviously trying to to reduce their energy costs and their bit more resilience for the future.

[00:09:32]>> And so, what's your average order value when you do a job? Uh anywhere between 200 to 350 is our kind of our average um project size.

[00:09:42]>> We're talking pounds or thousands here?

[00:09:45]>> Thousands.

[00:09:46]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:47]>> So anywhere between 200,000 and£350,000.

[00:09:52]Uh >> wow. So I suppose it takes No one's just ringing up and going 350 grand. There's a lot of twoing and throwing quotes and understanding, etc., etc. Yeah, there's definitely a process behind it. I think, you know, everyone's got it on their radar is the truth of it. Um, and we try to to educate first, understand exactly what they need, and then go through the process. And I think once people understand the data better, understand the technologies are available. It it's a relatively straightforward process from there. Um, there's just so much misinformation across the the internet.

[00:10:28]you know, if you type in solar for my business, you know, you're going to get uh the big energy companies, Optimus Energy or EDF, the big energy companies will will try and mop up a lot of that lowhanging fruit and make it quite difficult to understand what you're truly investing in. Um, you might be going down the consultant route. If you've got an energy procurement company, uh, they have their own preference on where they want you to spend their money or, you know, spend your money in terms of energy costs. Um, or you can come direct to the installers. So there's probably a a really good pool of installers across the UK which are very educational and then we almost want to make our clients the experts. Then they can go to market, get their tender uh out to market, get your traditional three, four quotes and at least you know what you're buying. Um we see this regularly that people just think of it as panels on the roof as an example and that's where they kind of get to they can't really go much further. We try to understand how much you use. That's a big question. The next big one is when you use it. Because there are some businesses, we've got a um big wine warehouse as an example locally to both of us actually where they're they're using a lot of energy overnight because of refrigeration um and humidity control. They have a different energy profile to to someone that's running a day nursery for instance, you know, sort of between 8:00 and 4 in the afternoon. Um, >> so what what um are you importing the panels or do you buy them in the UK?

[00:11:56]>> So we we're not at scale where we would import them um just because it's such an established wholesale market out there that you know unless you're buying unless you're doing utility scale. So significantly, you know, um large projects, you're talking tens and tens of thousands of panels, you wouldn't buy direct typically. Um that's just a different business model. whereas we've got such a good wholesale distribution network that the the costs are pretty uh pretty competitive to be honest with you. Um and the need to go direct is is is pretty much non-existent. Uh unless you're buying huge volume um which the danger for that for a business like ours is that because we're very bespoke in our projects, we're not bulk buying 10,000 panels and everyone gets the same thing. Got it.

[00:12:41]>> Everyone's slightly different.

[00:12:43]>> Okay. Right. So, 14 members in the team.

[00:12:45]Your biggest challenge is growth. I mean, it sounds like you've been growing really fast. Why?

[00:12:51]>> Why have we grown so fast?

[00:12:52]>> No. Why is it still a big challenge? You find that that's harder now to grow? Um I I think we've we've gone you know from a standing start from a concept of what we want to do to now. We've obviously learned a lot of lessons along the way that fundamentally it's it's still it's attracting the right ICP. So the ideal customer profile and they are quite a narrow market. You know these are typically commercial landlords.

[00:13:17]They're they're people that don't really they're not going to be um clicking a link through Google to find you. you know, this is very much a network um sort of play in terms of how we find our clients. So, they are they become they become more difficult. Um they're they're busy people. They don't want to be uh targeted all the time. So, there's an element of organic growth, which is which is great. But our biggest challenge is that if we take on too much in one go, then our team get over overburdened. um the cash flows vary massively considering the size of the projects and it's it's that kind of agile question well how we want to continue to grow obviously but we need to do it in a such a way that we don't all just fall over one day and you know it's just too much um so it's uh and also finding the right people quite frankly it's um it's a I think any business has that right it's finding people that have not just doing their job exceptionally well that's kind of a given um but it's the people that then add back into the the business culturally um ties in with our BC Court values and they can't just be good at their job.

[00:14:20]They have to be >> I'm so so so the growth is not because you can't get the customers is because you can't get the good enough people. Is that what it is?

[00:14:29]>> I think it's a combination of the two to be honest with you. Um yeah.

[00:14:32]>> So, so with it with if I was growing this, I'd probably have a direct mail approach and put someone on the road to find your ideal customers and get them to knock on the door of these commercial landlords.

[00:14:45]Do you do any of that?

[00:14:47]>> Uh, no, we don't. No, there's not. Uh, no, we we >> Yeah, I would have BDMs. I mean, if you've got average order value of 350K, I would put a business development manager on the road, try and get them so they understand the industry. You educate them. So, they're consultants.

[00:15:01]You call them energy consultants.

[00:15:04]Um, and then you get them appointments or you get them to create their own appointments and you get them on a commission basis. you give them a base salary with a commission based on results.

[00:15:15]>> Yeah, I I think it's a interesting idea that one of the biggest challenges with the size of projects is the how long they take to land. Um, so there could be quite a long gestation. So if you brought in a brand new BDM in that model, and I'm not saying it's not a good idea. I think it is a good idea.

[00:15:31]There's quite a you have to fund them for quite some time and give them arguably 9 to 12 months before they're landing arguably big deals.

[00:15:39]>> Absolutely.

[00:15:40]>> And that's the That's one of the challenges, right? And it's uh >> but you've chosen this life and you want to grow your business. If you don't do that, then you need to do direct mail. I think that would be the next best thing.

[00:15:54]>> Mhm.

[00:15:55]>> Like really well written copy with letters in the post. Would you go um sort of old school, not handwritten, but as in letters, or would you go how would you >> I would be thinking about a headline on there that solves the reader's pain. Uh you know, what is their pain? Like do you want lower energy costs? You probably had a million calls on solar, but here's the truth of it. You know, I would amplify all the pain. You know, I people call me all the time. I'm I get so fed up I've not bothered to look into it.

[00:16:27]>> Yeah. So how so how would they attract you James? So if if you were our ideal customer, how would I get to you?

[00:16:37]>> Uh well there is our accounts team are looking at three separate companies right now and putting it out. So we have >> but they've all been recommended us. So it's network marketing, isn't it? I mean very I mean I would be doing some pay-per-click still. Is that how you're getting all your leads at the moment?

[00:17:00]>> No. No, we don't. Our marketing spend is in terms of a that's about a two and a half million pound revenue business. Um our marketing spend is very very low in terms of that type of work. So a lot of the stuff we've done to date has been very educational led. very long form like case studies um where people can actually see you know interviews with clients see the project see the quality of work um understand how that fits together so that's where we've put most of our time and effort and and um >> yeah I think you should be doing all of that >> but I mean direct mail you can send letters out to the right people so you spend more time writing the list of your ideal clients then you send them a letter then you find someone to go and knock on their door and say, "Hey, we sent you this letter. Um, we'd love to we think we can save you a lot of money." And I would be personalizing letters and we think we can save you x amount of pounds quite conservatively, take us for a challenge on it.

[00:17:59]>> So, how so in the process you're going through at the moment where you've obviously had the recommendations, uh, you might have a fourth person, right?

[00:18:06]They do that direct mail. How do they go? Because what will end up happening is you'll do what you've just done in terms you've got the team looking at it, reviewing energy costs, um starting to get a feel for who's walking the walk.

[00:18:17]Um fundamentally it's that next shift because a lot of that those processes are just a cost driven exercise. So they'll say, "Look, give us your four quotes. Cheapest one kind of normally wins on this type of business." I'm not so sure. How do you get in front of you?

[00:18:30]>> No, we would we well I don't make the decision, but that's what now thinking about it. You want to go to companies FDs because I think all of this will go with the head of finance if it's a big enough company rather than the owner of the business. The owner of businesses do it when they're smaller businesses, but you want to get to a position where they have got an FD that is tasked to make savings and it's in their DNA and you find out who the FDs are.

[00:18:56]>> Yeah.

[00:18:57]>> LinkedIn gold 50 quid a month. you you find a hundred companies that you think will absolutely can do good works with you.

[00:19:04]>> Yeah. Well, we we do a fair bit of LinkedIn approaching like that. Um it's obviously we're looking at automation as like I think a lot of businesses are how do you how do you use technology to do scale?

[00:19:16]>> I don't think you should use automation for something that's going to cost 350 grand. I think that's stupid.

[00:19:24]>> But if the message So in terms of no finding the people, right? So there's obviously thousands of people you need to filter through. So you can use LinkedIn in terms of how you find those people.

[00:19:33]>> Let's have a look. So let's let's just take the lower level. So let's go down a quarter of a million quid.

[00:19:39]>> So that effectively means you've got 10ish customers a year.

[00:19:43]>> Mhm.

[00:19:44]>> 10 big customers a year.

[00:19:46]>> Yeah.

[00:19:47]>> Let's just write a list of 100 people we want to work with. Actually put some brain space into this and then work out how we reach those 100 people. That elephant is a lot less to chew now.

[00:19:58]>> Yeah.

[00:19:58]>> And we can have a personalized approach.

[00:20:02]>> Yeah.

[00:20:02]>> I mean, you need just 10 more clients, good clients a year, don't you?

[00:20:06]>> Yeah. Well, that's that's fundamentally what I do. Um, so at the end of the day, our we have we have had BDMs that have come into this space, but it's still a relatively there's not many people with a network, so they're kind of starting from scratch.

[00:20:21]If you say to the 10 BDMs, right, these hundred people, we know they need solar.

[00:20:26]We've driven outside their building, they haven't got solar up, we can save their money. These are the hundred people that live within two hours of our office. We can absolutely be a good result for them. You just need to go and get 10 of the hundred. You got to get a 10% hit rate. I mean, I would be if it was the size business is at, that's what I'd be doing.

[00:20:48]>> Yeah. We we are doing that to be clear that we're not this isn't Yeah. We just got to do more of it. I think that's the that's the reality of it.

[00:20:56]>> Yeah. Every time you're operating your business, you're not growing it.

[00:21:00]>> Yeah.

[00:21:02]Which is the one of the other challenges in terms of how we've we've got to where we are where we need to move ourselves myself and Gary away from that.

[00:21:10]>> Can I just pause for thought here?

[00:21:12]Remember, just get this into your little noggin. You only need 10 more good customers a year.

[00:21:17]>> Yeah.

[00:21:19]It really is bit, you know, then you you don't have the noise of LinkedIn automation and, you know, all this marketing stuff. It really is probably, I hate to say it, 100 phone calls a week.

[00:21:32]>> Yeah.

[00:21:32]>> Which no one wants to do. It's much easier to do Google ads, send out letters, you know, you know, and agreed.

[00:21:39]>> Yeah. But really and then and then what happens what happens is then the word the more you do the more word of mouth comes and then the less people do these things.

[00:21:50]>> Absolutely.

[00:21:51]>> Let's ask a question. Let's ask a question. Let's just wait. Let's pause the full >> How did you get there?

[00:22:03]>> How did you get your first customer?

[00:22:04]Christian uh referral friend of a friend. Um from day one it was a £8250 um electrical install which is a our literally first ever invoice we did uh on day one. It was uh yeah quite a long time ago now but um yeah old school >> and then did you so all of that old school referral stuff. I mean that's another big thing you could go to all the people if they're all business owners and just ring them up say hey Gary we put them solar panels on your roof last year. How's it all going? Yeah good. Good. You don't know any other business owner friends that might need some work?

[00:22:40]>> Yeah. Well, interestingly owners of our work is from referral work.

[00:22:45]>> Yeah, but here Well, that's great.

[00:22:47]That's really good. But what I find business owners are absolutely shockingly useless at is reminding existing customers. And it's just worth ringing them and go, you haven't got anyone that you think we could do some work for because you've already done work for them. They know, like, and trust you. and just say, "Look, yeah, we we really want to fill the diary if you've got any opportunities. We've got some great deals going on. Anyone you know, any friends? Any friends? Uh, could you recommend us? I really appreciate it." And that I reckon you will have 100 leads there >> if you rank your past customers.

[00:23:20]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a a gold mine. Like often we, you know, for for a very long time we focused on you. Obviously, most people do, but then we look backwards into that book of business that it's only in the last probably two years we've been able to to manage it properly. So, we've got a proper CRM and um you actually got the right data to do that. So, it's uh >> do remember do remember in your type of business you're dealing with busy people and because you're not a repeatable service, you're not like waste where everyone goes, oh, it's ABC Waste Clear Our Bins, you know, I know them. You know, they only need you once. So, what they go, who's that really nice bloke that done our solar panels? They're a good company. They won't remember your name. And that's why you need to keep in touch with them because they might have other projects that they want doing. you know, they want to build up a bit more cash, then two years later, who was the person, oh, I'll selling accounts to find their invoice. You need to keep on their radar. Very important.

[00:24:10]>> Yeah, absolutely agree with that.

[00:24:12]>> Yeah, because people I forget companies all the time. I mean, I have to remember things and I try and remember where I was, I take a photo of something and then put into my iPhone, remember the location and the month to try and find out and go on a Sherlock Holmes quest to find out that particular company that I used to use. Yeah, hope you've enjoyed the podcast thus far, but maybe you want more. More profitability, more growth.

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[00:25:47]>> Yeah, it's it's being front of mind, isn't it? as regularly as possible without being that >> that's why great business is where people use you all the time. You don't have to worry about that.

[00:25:56]>> Yeah. Well, we tried we we tie that in with and this is probably one of the other bits that we'll obviously go on to but how do we fold in other services that then need that. So you kind of got a number of factors that you know looking at ongoing servicing for instance like a big part of a lot of our clients will have not just solar they'll have EV charging infrastructure which is then a way more sort of regular touch point. They're looking at monthly revenues. They're looking at annual servicing, which is another op opportunity to go back in obviously. Um, so we're looking at, you know, that's a core part of the business. But one of the other bits we're looking at is where do we continue to invest? So we've got the team up to a certain standard, which is the highest you can get. Then where else do we spend our money wisely? And I don't necessarily want to just throw loads into marketing actually adding value to who we've already got. So things like you know ongoing servicing or energy procurement working with strategic partners because if you imagine you've got a energy broker for instance which is you know I'm sure you guys have got one um they would be a great source of those in referrals because they've got clients that spending a you know a fortune on energy.

[00:26:59]It's not necessarily in their interest to reduce the the spend obviously because that's where they make their money but nevertheless they want to be useful and and um have a a strategic partnership. So, we're looking at a growing that part of the market um significantly, but also whether or not it'd be worth us investing in um what they call a TPI um which would be buying a book of business fundamentally. So, book of clients that we would then go into and and uh cross-ell. Uh so, they're the sort of things we're we're we're looking to to explore.

[00:27:28]>> You might be able to find some energy broker firms for sale that you buy for next to nothing. Yeah. Um what about uh so the second biggest challenge is cash flow. Well, if you're profitable as you are, you need to get facilitation with the bank, don't you? They can give you stocking finance and stuff like that. So that >> Absolutely. Well, that, you know, the truth is, and you covered this on previous shows and and uh businesses, when we were small, nobody really wants to support that, but ironically, when you get to a certain level, people are happy to do that. Yeah. So, we've kind of gone through that transition now where we've shown consistent growth, consistent profitability, and now banks are very happy to give you funding when you sometimes don't always need it. Um, so we've kind of gone through the the hardship of that. Um, what one question I was going to ask you about and I know you um, in terms of banking. We started with Staling, you know, low cost, it kind of does a great job. Uh, there's quite a few out there. I think Revolute is one that you've you've talked about a bit. Um, is that then when you go into that more structured finance that the traditional banks seem to be the way to go? So, do you do you think there are two distinct do you need both arguably or do you do you go HSBC only or do you have a bit of everything or how would you structure that?

[00:28:39]>> No, no. I bank with about five different banks. But I'm I'm a freak, you know, like don't don't consider me as normal.

[00:28:47]Uh I I think you know if I was a business like you'd be like who can give you trade facilities and yeah I mean the f the high street banks the Lloyds the HSBC's the Barclays the Nat Wests are you know geared up to do this stuff. I mean once you get to 5 million of revenue I think you'll find it much easier again but I I can introduce you to a broker um that will just look at everything and find you the right solutions.

[00:29:14]>> Okay. Thank you. That would be that would be really helpful. You know what I I use I mean I I do do most of my banking direct with my bank manager. The main bank I use, but I use a broker for a lot of stuff now because they can check the market, save your money, they can chase the banks down, get things done quicker.

[00:29:31]>> Yeah. And do they interesting? I guess they they make their money out of referrals, do they? Referral fees from the the lenders or >> HSBC would pay them if the deal gets over the line. So it's a win-win situation.

[00:29:44]>> So it's in their interest. Yeah.

[00:29:47]>> Interesting.

[00:29:49]>> Right. Then the third biggest challenge is recruiting. Tell me about that.

[00:29:54]>> So we're so as I touched on at the very beginning, uh so we're a BC Corp certified business which which basically means we we we tried to balance a a few different things, you know, purpose, planet, and the people. They're the three sort of core pillars. And the challenge that we we often have is balancing the cultural fit within the business and doing the job being very commercial about it. And it's finding the right people that can continue to grow um through the business. So on day one, they they fit the mold incredibly well, but because we are growing, it's been quite dynamic.

[00:30:27]Sometimes people are doing um a few different roles uh at times. It's finding the right people that can grow as well. Um and uh that's that's probably been our um our biggest strength actually and also arguably our biggest weakness because if we we find someone that's amazing and then they go there's like the you know the massive swing there um and it's it's maintaining that >> sorry >> why have they gone >> well I'm I'm saying if they go in terms of those key me staff so no I know playing devil's advocate right >> yeah but yeah don't worry about that you know like we can't worry about the shoulda would aa couldas you know we got to march forward.

[00:31:05]>> Yeah. Um so it's just a it's a constant I guess it's a constant threat, isn't it? Um it's if you >> Yeah, it's just one of those things we have in our mind that we're it's a big focus for us to make sure everyone's performing, enjoying it, um and uh you know, thriving. So it's yeah, just >> I with the recruitment, I think what's a really good thing for businesses to do is think about what does the business look like in 10 years time. It's a great uh good psychological thing to do. What does what does our revenues look like?

[00:31:35]What do our profitability look like? How do the marketplace see our business?

[00:31:39]It's what I do with all my accelerator members. You know, we go through and we work out, you know, what does the business look like when it's finished?

[00:31:47]You know, what does the team look like?

[00:31:48]What will you be doing for the business?

[00:31:50]And we write it down. We commit it to paper. Um and I find once you do that, most people don't know that. They know, yeah, we sort of want it to grow. We want to do this, we want to do that, >> you know, but they don't know with clarity what the end looks like. And if you read the book seven habits of highly effective people thinking with the end in mind is what super successful people do with clarity because everyone sort of knows what the end in mind looks like but can they do it with clarity and that's the big question.

[00:32:19]>> Yeah, good advice. Um, it it's Yeah, I think that >> Do you and Gary know?

[00:32:25]>> Sorry.

[00:32:26]>> Do you and Gary know Clar? I mean, you've said here, yeah, we want to sell the business when it's finished, but what does the thing look like sold? What What does the the bow on top look like of this business when it's finished?

[00:32:40]>> And then I think that's a really crucial thing.

[00:32:43]>> Yeah, I I think we do. We have a I wouldn't say could we uh I think we do.

[00:32:48]Yes. Is the is the short answer. It's, you know, we're building this at the moment with our senior management team.

[00:32:53]So, making sure the right skill sets, the right personalities, and the right roles. Um, you know, the the the one the one big role that we're we're spending a lot of time and focus on is is how do we replace myself and and Gary, you know, as in we do a lot of different things, have lots of different skill sets, but it's it's bringing mainly that kind of MD replacement one day. Um, and and the the reality >> rather than that one day thing. So, so what we do with our accelerator members, what does the business look like in a year, three years, and 10 years, but we always start with the 10 years because then you won't put constraints on you.

[00:33:29]So, what business owners do is go, we're really ambitious, but we have constraints on talent, constraints on people, and constraints on the individual that's running the business.

[00:33:37]In 10 years time, when you think about 10 years, you don't think about capital constraints, you don't think about talent constraints. You think, well, everything would be better in 10 years.

[00:33:45]So you just you you allow yourself to dream. So you got your 10 year thing and then you think in three, right? What does it look like in three years? We know what it looks like in 10 years. We know where we are now. And then you can sort of get a much better ambitious middle that comes with a dose of reality.

[00:34:01]>> Yeah. No, again absolutely agree with that. It's um I guess it's focusing on those key roles, isn't it? And then kind of working backwards. Um and and I think in in quite a big a big factor of this is the cultural fit because you can have a very high performing person that just doesn't quite fit with the with the ethos ethos of the business or they're very disruptive and I think that's the that's the balance right and you don't >> you got to write it down and that's why we always say yeah with our accelerators you know we play fancy football like what are their attributes what do they do you know what are the cultural standards of the business you know and and that's why committing it to paper rather than just having it in your noggin is so important Do do you think um in terms of ownership of the business? So our main objective is to have a business ready for sale.

[00:34:46]That's ultimately the the goal, right?

[00:34:47]Because it just shapes everything we do.

[00:34:49]>> But one of the big things that we want to actually put in place and start to develop is the owners like a uh an employee ownership trust effectively. So those key people have uh a very clear idea of where they can get to in terms of an equity stake in the business and earn their way into it. What are your views on on that type of direction? uh or are you not keen?

[00:35:10]>> I would say that we're going to do an employee ownership trust in set the date in the future and then that's when everyone buys in once you guys go.

[00:35:23]>> Okay. How how far down the you talk about a 10-year time frame there before?

[00:35:28]>> It could be could be three years. you what the the 10 the reason I do the 10 year thing is because I think you know people overestimate what can be done in a year and underestimate what can be done in 10 you know I want people to think without constraints in weight >> because at the moment if I said to you what you want to do in the next year your brain naturally goes to the constraints on you talent capital >> when that's why the 10 year thing is is good because it removes constraints if you want to sell in three years four years five years you bring on a really talented person say, "Look, by the way, we're going to sell the business. You can own the business. We're going to do an EOT where all of our staff will own it. That's going to happen in three years. If you're still around and you perform, you can own this business.

[00:36:13]Great. You know, stick with it."

[00:36:16]>> Yeah.

[00:36:17]>> What I'm not a fan of >> is bringing people on, giving them shares until you know who they are and what they're about.

[00:36:26]>> I 100% agree with that. Um that that's that's one area that we you know we we just won't simply do that. But the people that have to earn and have a length of service that we know the ins and outs because you know >> I mean I mean you want to do the EOT because of the tax advantages for you guys rather than just sell it to the market.

[00:36:44]Um I I think it's a combin it's probably both of those things if if the truth be told you know is a very taxefficient way obviously uh albeit that's changed quite recently but it's what we actually want to create and build is some sort of legacy that the people that are buying in now have got a long journey ahead as well. They're not being bought out and you know absorbed into some massive installation company. We we see it we've seen it a lot where you know all of a sudden there's duplication of roles people get carved out and before you know it you that brands and that that whole cultural fit's gone. Um we're very proud of what we're doing in terms of that cultural fit the BC direction and you know we've committed to it. This isn't just a a tickbox thing where it's a nice logo to have on the website.

[00:37:27]We've had to change our constitution to to fit it. Um, >> a Bor is very good for an EOT because you're going to get a bank to help fund it.

[00:37:35]>> Um, yeah. Okay.

[00:37:37]>> Yeah. I mean, you're not going to just do it with cash reserves, are you?

[00:37:40]You're going to want people to borrow some money to pay you out.

[00:37:43]>> Correct. Yeah. Exactly. And and and the other bit of that if again being open is that the idea of necessarily exiting and then going and doing something completely different and doing it all again has an appeal but equally would love to see this through for quite a long time. So we still want to have an involvement. We want to see it grow. So still being involved is is quite exciting. So >> yeah, sounds good. I mean EOT I know some people have done it and done very well out of it. Right. On that note, it's now time for questions.

[00:38:13]Uh, so you've got some questions you'd like to ask me.

[00:38:17]>> Do you remember what they are? Do you want me to read them out?

[00:38:20]>> Uh, go for it. Read Matt.

[00:38:22]>> Yeah. So, how do I replace myself?

[00:38:25]I think you write the 10-year plan. You get the business to the right levels of revenue and turnover. What's quite good is you're a partnership, so you can have clearly defined roles. Your job is to bring in income. It sounds like the other guy's job is to operate the business. Yeah.

[00:38:39]>> So, that's good. But once the business gets bigger, I reckon you'll buy another energy firm that's got some good talented people in it that can >> do some arbitrage to run your business.

[00:38:53]That sound sounds good. How do we leave a lasting legacy? I think the EOT does that for you. That's a really lovely thing to do. Um, how do we ensure we're truly market leaders? I I think the very fact that you're saying that will make sure that you're truly market leaders because that's your desire.

[00:39:10]um you know when we commit things to paper I I think yeah but I definitely definitely think there's something in when people write stuff down there might be a you know a hiatus for a year it might take a little bit longer for you to get where you want to get to but when you write things down good stuff definitely happens >> so write it down >> yeah it's it's that it's that clarity piece isn't it and it's and um and also sharing with the team like we've noticed you know as we continue to go through each phase that, you know, we're we're discussing this constantly behind the scenes effectively within the the SMT teams, but then the guys out on the road, they're not seeing that every day.

[00:39:48]So, it's trying to make sure we we communicate that properly and they understand where we're at as a business rather than kind of guessing or wondering what's going on.

[00:39:57]>> Sounds good. Right, Christian, if someone wants to get some EV stuff from you, are you national or just around switch?

[00:40:06]>> We are. We are for the Yes, we are. We we cover the UK. So, you know, if you're a commercial landlord, um, or you're you're operating a number of, uh, businesses across the UK, typically, you know, large warehouses or or large buildings, uh, you can get in touch direct either insighten energy.uk is a web address or myself, Christian Day.

[00:40:24]Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn, uh, Insight Energy.

[00:40:27]>> And just quickly, if someone's spending 100 grand a year on utilities through just the traditional ways, what would they pay via solar?

[00:40:38]Well, the the best way to frame it is about the payback. So, the return on investment. So, hence your comment earlier about FDs being quite focused on this. Typical returns on commercial solar would range from 3 years to 5 years. And that's based on a on a cash um capital inje uh purchase. You've got another option of asset lease, which is obviously quite attractive for a lot of businesses. And then you've got the third option, which is what they call power purchase agreements, which is kind of renting a roof to a to an installer.

[00:41:08]They they give you cheap energy for a long period of time. Um that works really well for big blue chip companies typically. Um but most most clients sit in that f those first two phases, but anywhere between 3 to 5 years is a typical return. Um and then it's a question of the the technology you're installing and the the length of warranties. They're the probably the two key bits to take away. So at the end of five years, do the solar panels need replacing?

[00:41:34]>> No. No. The lifespan of an install is 25 years.

[00:41:40]>> So I'm just trying to think here why.

[00:41:47]So if it if you're spending 100 grand a year on electric and it cost you 150 grand to put the panels on or no, quarter of a million quid. It's your average. Yeah.

[00:41:58]>> Yeah. Uh so after 3 years you've paid them off is not completely free electric. You'd have to top it up do you sometimes from the grid?

[00:42:05]>> Yeah you'd always have some reliance on the grid. So you you might offset you know a really obvious case study an average case study should I say is if you're offsetting 50% of your energy costs from the solar that's effectively paying that back in three to five years.

[00:42:20]So you're always going to have a reliance on an energy provider at some point but you you're massively reduced.

[00:42:26]But then there's other things on top of that you can do to to to effectively sweat the asset. It comes down to battery storage as an example. You can you can buy cheap energy overnight, use it in the day, but boy today, but there's lots of ways of of accelerating that return. So what ends up happening is that people focus on just the solar which is, you know, it's a great starting point, but to really make the most of that capital, what do you do with it after it's installed? So, you know, it goes back to battery storage, EV infrastructure potentially. you know, a lot of your visitor parts, as an example, you know, could you make a revenue from people plugging in for 3 hours? Absolutely. And if you're selling your cheap energy off the roof into vehicles, you know, you're you're accelerating that return. And I think that's the missing piece for a lot of businesses is that they focus purely on panels on roofs, which is which is kind of like, you know, pretty basic stuff.

[00:43:18]It's how you then maximize the whole ecosystem. Um, that's the piece that we specialize in. And there are lots of businesses that do do this by the way.

[00:43:26]Um, but it is complicated and you need time with people to explain the journey.

[00:43:31]And going back to your point earlier on, if you're sitting around a table with four companies all pitching very very similar products, it often comes become a price a price discussion which you know almost you need to reverse engineer that. Become the expert, understand what it is, get best value for money. And if if someone's got a true apples for apples and they're cheaper, then fine.

[00:43:53]Um but it's trying to reverse engineer that whole process for people.

[00:43:57]>> And is there government grants towards it or is that all stopped?

[00:44:00]>> Yeah, it depends on what you which type of business. So farmers as an example.

[00:44:05]Um there are grants for that. We've got one at the moment which has just reclaimed 25% of their capital costs. Um but I'd broadly say there aren't normally commercial grants available unless you're in a very specialist sector. Um, but you know, if you're looking at those sorts of returns and you've got a 20 to 25 year lifespan, if you've got a property that you're a freeholder of, then it's a complete no-brainer. The challenge comes with some people that might be a short-term tenant, might be five, eight years, and they're like, well, I'm not going to invest X for they still do do that to be fair, but they might take a slightly different view if you're owning it. The more energy you use of your manufacturing, it be the the payback is quicker. Is it >> 100%. Yeah. So there's a there's a sweet spot in every project where you can arguably there is a sweet spot where the optimum number of panels are installed.

[00:44:59]Uh and then it does start to have a diminishing um return. So, if you've got an enormous building, let's say you've got an Amazon warehouse for instance, and relatively low consumption because the nature of that business, there's not worth filling the whole roof full of solar.

[00:45:13]>> Yeah.

[00:45:14]>> Unless you're selling that back to the grid with an energy broker that has some sort of um which is all part of the jigsaw, which is probably not one for today, but there's there's a lot of ways to to monetize on-site generation. Um, and that's that's what's really exciting about the industry. It's um trying to bring all those elements together >> and as if it where do you see electricity prices go? Do do you think they'll get a bit better as more solar goes on as people >> there two distinct markets. There's the retail so us at home that will always be protected. You know, I'm not an energy expert in this sense, but this is my personal view. Just caveat that that when you're at home, you're going to be protected by big, you know, uh, like it is at the moment, right? Energy caps, etc. In businesses, it's pretty much open-ended. So, the energy costs will only go up. So, one of the biggest issues that's coming down the line, and it's always happening, is what they call the transmission costs. So, as an example, the UK have to electrify, right? They've committed to it. They're happening. whether people like it or not is happening and one of the biggest costs that's going to happen is the upgrade of the grid. So UK power networks in our area is the good example of this. They have to invest in infrastructure which means bigger capacity, bigger cables, etc. It's all very expensive infrastructure. That cost has to go somewhere. And guess who's going to be paying that cost? So businesses like you and many people that will be listening to this um they may not see it today but I can guarantee there will be a massive uptick in costs just transmission costs on their own to pay for the infrastructure.

[00:46:54]>> See could you just be are we in a situation where a warehouse can be completely off-rid yet >> that will you you'll get a lot of people in the uh in the in the comments on this. No, you you can't. It's unless you've got an enormous backup of battery storage, you can't become fully off-grid as as the phrase would be. Uh you can reduce your reliance on it heavily. So we've got some businesses that typically sit between 40 to 60% um offset from what their normal costs are. We've got some businesses that sit at maybe 80 to 90%. That's like the real real sweet spot if you ever get there.

[00:47:34]But these aren't businesses that are high energy consumption businesses.

[00:47:38]You're always going to have a massive reliance on the grid. So the the only the real focus for most people would be reducing it from say 20% to 60% is where most people would fit.

[00:47:49]The rest of it is always going to sit there. It's always going to be uh you know a British gas sending you an invoice. The question is how how low is that? Um that that's the goal. So you you can't get to zero is the is the misconception.

[00:48:07]Just think about this if you was has solar panel installation come down in price compared to 5 years ago.

[00:48:19]>> Yes. And do you see that >> do you see that getting you know as China makes more and more and floods the market with more competitors do you see that >> becoming even more cheaper in the next couple of years?

[00:48:32]>> Um I think it will be more competitive.

[00:48:35]Yes. Um I I think that if you look over the over a 15-year period solar panel prices have dropped like 97%.

[00:48:43]>> Have they?

[00:48:44]>> Yeah. It's it's a phenomenal number. If you look at the records after this look at what That's amazing.

[00:48:51]>> It's is crazy like the the output versus the cost is is just phenomenal numbers and people forget that because it's quite a long time ago. But if you look in today's world, as an example, what what was what's going on with Trump obviously in Iran and all that this energy play ultimately what's what's going on I think um is that the there's a lot of businesses, a lot of countries that are using this as an opportunity to put prices back up again.

[00:49:18]So a correction. So panel prices as an example predominantly come from China.

[00:49:22]Um there's a there's a big influx of um costs coming through at the moment which will be 9 to 11% in the next few months because wholesale costs are going up. So in answer to the question, yes, technology is getting better, efficiencies are getting better, but the political landscape isn't allowing that to be passed on as much as we'd want it to be. Um, is a solar install at 250 grand going to be 200 grand in four years time? I don't think so because the infrastructure costs are going up.

[00:49:54]>> Yeah, >> panels are pretty, you know, it's only very small element of actually the the install. Um, it's the electrical upgrades is quite a big cost.

[00:50:01]>> What about the batteries though? The batteries have come down.

[00:50:03]>> Batteries have dropped. Yeah. Yeah, they have dropped big time. Um, and certainly you've got two ends of the spectrum here. You've got sort of smallcale home batteries which has always been very competitive but they're small right they're not there's not a lot going on with them but if you're looking at industrial utility scale big containers you know the the you see a field full of them there's not much development happen in that middle space between sort of basically businesses really and that cost has dropped and therefore it makes it a fantastic return. So going back to return on investments and just basic numbers, if your return on investment for solar only is four years for instance and you have loads of excess solar that you could use, right? You could use them back on site and you buy a battery, that return might jump to five years. So yes, it's more because the capital's more, but the return is still pretty compelling.

[00:50:57]>> Um, so in answer to the question, is pricing going to drop for the floor? No, not in the current state. Certainly not for the next few years, but I can guarantee prices of electricity for businesses will be going up. Um there is unless you've locked in for four years, which is probably more luck than judgment. Um that is that is happening.

[00:51:16]>> Cool. Right. Any other questions you'd like to ask?

[00:51:21]>> Uh not really. No, I think we we've covered a huge chunk of it. I think um one of the big ones was about the o um employment trust um which I think we covered off nicely. Um, >> Chris, I think you should uh check out our accelerator program. I think you'd like that. We got qualified accountant that coach you each month. You should have a little look into that.

[00:51:39]jamesinclair.net, baby. Right. Um, we're going to rate you now. Um, so you're going to have to wait till it comes out to find out how you done. There you go.

[00:51:47]>> Look forward to it.

[00:51:48]>> Thanks very much for being on the big show, Christian. Goodbye. Christian leaves us now, Chance, as we do. The eight traits of the greats. Uh, thinking with the end in mind. I think he gets that passionate about their calls or he loves a bit of electric. Untold amounts of resilience. I don't think we were tested on that.

[00:52:04]>> Is he Is he really passionate about electric?

[00:52:06]>> Yeah, he's got B Corp. That's hard to get.

[00:52:08]>> Does that mean you're passionate about it or is he just good at his job?

[00:52:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, you have to go and I'm just checking because you're like flying over it like no one's business. I just thought >> No, it's very hard.

[00:52:17]>> Passionate about electric. What does that mean?

[00:52:19]>> For a small bit. Yeah, you have to prove that you're passionate about the environment and people.

[00:52:23]>> Oh, that's true. We did say that actually. Yeah. Okay, fine. That's not it's not an easy thing to get. I mean, you have to be like, >> he did mention that. Okay.

[00:52:30]>> Passionate >> about uh untold amounts of resilience hasn't been tested in my uh experience, mass relationships, people.

[00:52:39]I think uh I'm not going to give him that as well. Commercial awareness.

[00:52:42]>> Why you're not going to give it to him?

[00:52:45]>> I don't think he's going out there enough networking. I think he's just, you know, relying on referrals and Okay.

[00:52:50]Yeah. And I I I think that's where we give that point to people where they go out there.

[00:52:55]>> Well, sometimes you give it to people if you like them.

[00:52:58]>> Yeah, I liked him, but I just think I don't want to give him that yet. That's my decision. Chson, that's the that's final. Uh where commercial awareness though, I do think he knows his numbers.

[00:53:08]They innovate don't evaporate. Yeah, I think he's an innovator. Master marketeer, no. State one curious. Yes, that's a five. That's a good score. Not many people get five. Uh it's a five.

[00:53:19]This business is going to thrive. Thanks very much for being on the big show, Christian Day from Ipsswitch. And it's now time, ladies and gents, for tomb time.

[00:53:30]Okay, so uh Chance is going to give us a number. Come on then, Chance. Give us a number. And the number is thing's quite difficult to open sometimes.

[00:53:41]>> Come on, open it. Open it. Open it.

[00:53:42]>> Very fiddly.

[00:53:45]15.

[00:53:46]>> I was on 15. That was a I knew. I just had I had a feeling. I had a feeling.

[00:53:51]Right. We got a black envelope here.

[00:53:53]Play along at home, gang. Me and Trubbly are going to play. Inside this here envelope is an orange card. And on the orange card is a set of facts about a business that uh Buer Stevie has found out about. And then behind the green piece of paper is the corresponding famous brand's logo. And we're going to go and sort of work it out together.

[00:54:13]over Chuds. 84 million iconic headbands have been sold since the park's opening, making them the most popular souvenir.

[00:54:21]Smellizers release scents to enhance immersion, for example, the smell of fresh cookies pumped into Main Street USA. And go away green refers to paint colors used to divert attention from infrastructure. Many parks feature the iconic characters silhouette integrated into rides, architecture, and landscaping. I mean, this is definitely Morrison's supermarket, >> obviously.

[00:54:47]>> Who you going with, mate?

[00:54:48]>> Disney.

[00:54:50]>> I was trying to do a Mickey Mouse impression. Yeah, I'm I think >> Go on. Go on then.

[00:54:56]>> Hi, you pal.

[00:54:58]>> That wasn't bad.

[00:54:59]>> I tell you, my best mate Marete is can do Mickey Mouse on point. Uh, yeah, it's Disneyland. There we go. And that's the traditional Disneyland logo there, by the way. I just uh got that on screen there. Uh before it was the uh Disney script. That was uh Disney's >> That was basically just revealing Disney, wasn't it? That wasn't a quiz.

[00:55:20]>> That was the easiest one we've ever done.

[00:55:22]>> Thanks, Dave. She's actually put some toughies in there though. Then we've had some toughies. Um don't forget guys, if you'd like to come to one of our events and grow your business even further, find out all details of our events on jamesinclair.net. We'd love to see their business mascots. We've got property profits. If you're into property and you want to grow your property portfolio, we've got a big day on property coming up. Again, all details at jamesinclair.net. I'm James Sinclair to your continued success. I'll see you in the next one. Bye-bye. If you've loved listening to this podcast and you think, "Oh, that's a bit of me. I've got some challenges and I'd like my business exposed to the tens of thousands of people that listen to this podcast, then good news, captain. You can apply to come on the podcast. There's an application form. Just check out the podcast description and we'll see you there to help grow your