Research in forensic psychology demonstrates that violence risk assessments have significant limitations: studies of 155 death row inmates found that 100% had experts testify they were future dangers, yet only 5% engaged in serious violence requiring more than first aid during a 10-year follow-up period. This suggests that environmental factors like isolation in death row settings may prevent violence rather than indicating inherent safety. The field acknowledges that predicting individual violent behavior is inherently uncertain, with experts unable to provide definitive predictions about specific individuals.
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Justice for Athena - Defense Case In ChiefAjouté :
For every time in the face that it hits us more faster. Well, they should know what they see. Keeps trying to shake us.
It only us.
It's in a beautiful darkness another.
It's full steam ahead. Full steam ahead of the rest from the start. It's a runway train. I come up train and thank you unbalanced equation for the two pounds. Uh we are going to need it you guys. The defense is swinging for I don't know if a negative home run is a thing. not being a sports ballologist, but what I will say is it's a bold move to bring in an expert who has not examined your patient to uh give us the startling revelation that in his studies of death row inmates, inmates that are sequestered by themselves, they rarely go on to continue redrumming.
legitimately that is what he is here for. He was paid f almost $500 an hour uh by the defense uh for his expertise in the fact that he has done studies limited to Texas of all people on death row who uh basically had experts testify that they were likely to commit violence again. He went through and looked at them and found that most death row inmates do not uh actually read from again possibly because they are separated from society and isolated.
That being said, I I also have to mention that this particular expert uh do uh do you have a missing pink wig?
No, that is the mom and I think she might have retouched her hair, but it is looking awesome.
I have no idea.
But I I will say that this expert looks somewhat to to my eye like Rex Herman's uh skinnier brother. What I am saying is basically legitimately we are in the timeline where the defense paid for an expert that looks like he might do karaoke of goodbye horses in a robe in front of a mirror with a lifetime supply of uh lotion. But I'll let you guys decide. I am going to put this on 1.25 25 because for the next hour it is basically going to be nothing but vagaries and psycho babble. So I I apologize. And Rumpier, I are you okay if I make you a mod over on Rumble? Uh I need to do that and I need to add mods.
So if you're okay being a mod, I will add you while I'm thinking about it right now.
Uh yeah. Um so a little bit of kind of to orient you guys now. We will hear from this expert, but this expert did not actually examine um the defendant. I will no longer be using the defendant's name. I will either say the defendant or the monster. Um, but this will be the defense's case and chief and they are starting out with a paid expert with >> an undergraduate degree uh in uh 1990 uh I'm sorry 1989 at West Virginia State College which is now called West Virginia State University. uh and I completed a master's degree at Marshall University in 1991 uh in clinical psychology and then I went on to uh complete a PhD at Texas A&M where I'm now currently employed uh in uh 1996 uh and in after that was also in clinical psychology uh and then I completed a two-year post-doal fellowship uh specializing specifically in forensic psychology at the University of South Florida. And what professional accreditations, licenses, or certificates have been granted?
>> Uh, I was licensed to to practice psychology in the state of Texas for about 20 years. I retired that license uh eight or nine years ago.
>> Okay. So, you guys chat ones or twos in the chat. So, one of you agree that he does look like um he possibly has someone living in his basement and my, you know, weird is there. Or am I seeing things? Am I looking at him in an uncharitable light because he is working to defend well the absolute dumpster of dumpster people.
Now he has passed a dobert hearing. So the state has gone over and um been able to question uh his credentials and uh his sort of studies. However, um again this is all going to be a lot of vagaries. Now, we are going to see the state make some really good points, but basically the only reason he is here is to say that well, there's been a lot of experts that testify at these trials that a a defendant is more likely to commit serious violence if they are left in general population or uh they are allowed to go free or have the potentiality to go free. Now, apparently he has done research uh that states that most um most defendants who have experts who testify that way are placed in solitary confinement and don't go on to red rum again. Again, this is a multiffactorial thing. Uh basically, he is here to say, well, those experts are totally wrong and they don't go on to red rum again. But it kind of ignores the fact that they are in solitary confinement. generally they do not have access to other inmates or other people that they can assault. So it is a way to bring out a narrative but not tell it the whole truth >> due to not actively having a practice uh in terms of doing psychological evaluations or providing treatment services uh outside of the work I do through our university clinic where >> now we are at 1.25 25. So he he is going to look a little bit uh jerky and sort of odd.
But uh that's just because honestly I did listen to him at regular speed and I I ate a lot of gummy nerds y'all.
Faculty there have an exemption in terms of state licensing requirements because we're not practicing uh outside of uh the university setting. uh and my primary work has been over that time the training of doctoral students uh in relation to preparing them for careers to to practice psychology or go into academia um as well as uh to conduct research on topics relevant to forensic psychology mental health issues and the law things of that nature.
>> So tell me a little bit more about your research and teaching fields.
>> Sure. Uh so my background is in clinical psychology broadly uh which is the uh uh the study of uh mental and emotional uh disturbances and uh problematic behavior uh and the treatment and assessment of those sorts of conditions. Uh and then my further specialization is in the world of forensic applications of that uh in regards to uh you know usually involving individuals who are involved in criminal justice system or maybe involved in civil litigation where mental health issues come in play such as child custody evaluations or things of that nature.
Now, this does appear to be very much someone who is ideologically against the death penalty, and that does seem to be the general grounds upon which the defense kind of has it. It would take a certain mental mindset to to defend Tanner, that guy, the way they are. And I have a feeling it comes from a deep ideological um dislike of of the death penalty. And I that's okay, but I don't like the way they are they are framing this. And welcome Nicole. Uh Nicole uh Rhoden Histler.
If I mess up your name at any point, uh let me know and I will try to work on it. I I am terrible and I graduated uh failing hooked on phonics. So I do try but um very much this seems to come from an ideological disagreement about the death penalty rather than any serious meritorious arguments um that would mitigate uh for their defendant.
And I don't know that that's the right tack to take, especially after the extremely powerful and heartbreaking evidence that the jury uh you know got to see on Thursday. The state closed with an absolute mic drop and I don't know that the defense is going to have anything comparable, but this is definitely a weak showing.
So uh most of the work that I have done over the years in terms of uh my research has investigated uh issues such as uh you know trying to identify risk factors for violence in the future uh as one of the main areas that I've looked at in relation to various types of uh risk factors that might be relevant to that. Uh related to that, I've also done research looking at uh the field's ability to identify potentially dangerous individuals and make accurate predictions about who will or won't be violent in the future. U those are two of the areas that done work in uh quite a bit over the years.
>> Okay. And we'll come back to that. But before that, um can you tell me if you receive you receive a distinction from the American Psych Psychology Law Society?
>> Uh yeah. Well, I am a fellow of a couple of the main psychological associations that are out there. Uh, which means I'm really old. Uh, essentially I've been around a long time. Uh, and those are >> Are you okay? Did Did you take the change from Freudian psychology uh to, you know, less well emphasis on your relationship with your mom? How did that go for you? Did it did it make you wonder about your own mom?
And thank you, Living Life with FND. And I'm trying to get better at mentioning where I got my wigs. This one I know for sure was a Timu.
Fair point. Uh, this one was a Timu and I think it was like $11 or thereabouts.
It does not come with wig clips, so do have your own bobby pins. um and and patience because when you're first playing with wigs um you know the placement where you're going to feel comfortable with the bobby pins it's a little bit interesting a fellow status as opposed to just being a member is essentially one of those things that's tied to you know making distinguished contributions to your field uh things of that nature so it's a it's a a recognition of your kind of career accomplishments >> and you receive an award from the American Psychological Foundation Society of Clinical Psychology.
>> Uh yes, I received an award from them in regards to my research on personality assessment and personality disorders. Uh that was another kind of career award for outstanding contributions to uh research investigating those issues.
>> There's a lot there, but your area areas of expertise, do they include forensic and correctional psychology? You talked about personality disorders and that include studies of psychological assessments as well?
>> Yes. Okay.
And you talk about completing research in those fields. Does that include like receiving and completing research grants? That sort of thing?
>> Yes.
>> And we're all being published in those fields.
>> Uh yes, I published over >> um it's Bri. You haven't missed much.
This particular expert is going to be very very generalized. He did not look at Tanner specifically. He is mo mainly going to talk about his area of expertise where he has looked at sort of the long-term uh prognosis of uh death row inmates where uh experts have testified that there was a high likelihood of them going on to commit further violence. And basically his view on on this information is that most death row inmates do not go on to cause further violence in death row. However, it's a bit of a mischaracterization of the facts because death row is generally segregated. You have less of an opportunity to assault people. It's usually very isolated. So there are a lot of reasons that these particular inmates do not get a chance to be violent with other people. So it is a bit like um you know telling the story and burying the lead. But the state is going to catch him. The state does a really good job of making very good points about uh different things that are very relevant to this case. uh whereas the defense is going to try to stay very generalized and really point out that the you know so-called experts have been wrong about the continued um potentiality for violence without maybe going into all those factors until he is crossed by the state.
>> 200 uh research articles and scientific outlets over the years most of which are related to forensic and correctional psychology. Not all of that is related to things like violence risk or personality disorders, but that's a large part of it.
>> Okay. And did you ever serve as like the editor or on the editorial board for the publications in those fields?
>> Uh yes. So I've been an associate editor of a couple of the main um scientific outlets where people publish research uh in the forensic mental health field and the just broader psychological assessment field. Uh journals such as the journal psychological assessment uh the journal of personality assessment.
been an associate editor there where I'm responsible for um you evaluating scientific research that gets submitted in relation to its uh you know methodological merits and uh whether or not it should be published. Uh and that process involves seeking out importantly peer reviewers to evaluate the research that's been done uh to offer their independent.
>> Um no Bri, you are not being jaded or cynical. It is very upsetting. Um, and it feels very much like a waste of our time. And especially if you've sat over um, you know, you sat and watched the very heartbreaking, you know, evidence that was given to us on Thursday of last week.
It is just it it is so grading to have this expert talk about generalities that really are are quite easy to review opinions about whether or not the research is sort of scientifically valid and and worthy of being published. Uh and then for other journals where I'm not on not an associate editor, I frequently serve as a peer reviewer of a research along those same lines. So I'm I'm pretty heavily involved in evaluating scientific uh studies looking at forensic and correctional issues.
>> And did you are you the lead author of the personality assessment inventory interpretive report for professional studies?
>> Yes.
>> Can you describe what that answer is?
>> Sure. Uh so the personality assessment inventory is a very widely used personality test uh that was created by Dr. Leslie my uh and uh that test is used all around the world. has been translated into many different languages um for general psychological assessments and evaluations. uh and uh the uh my involvement with it aside from publishing a lot of research on that particular instrument is that I was approached by the test uh publisher to create a uh an interpretive report uh that is specifically for uh inmates going into prison settings uh to evaluate their psychological risks and and needs uh because the the PI does not uh itself does not have an interpretive report specific to that sort of setting.
Uh so uh I worked with them to collect a lot of data on it specifically from prisoners uh and created the sort of interpretive logic that talks about the um psychological functioning essentially of individuals who are being administered it uh when they are transitioning into a prison setting.
>> Do you know whether that instrument is actually used by the Texas Department of Corrections? I >> I know that the personality assessment inventory has been used at various points in different uh facilities. uh whether or not they're specifically using my uh corrections report, the interpretive report, I'm not aware of.
Uh I'm not involved in the keeping track of who the test marketing company is.
>> Also, why are we using anything that says interpretive?
Because every time I hear interpretive, I just want to say dance.
It's probably a mini Tourette's thing, you know.
Uh but still, I swear to goodness it. So you made a test that prisons use that you are going to go on to say again cannot accurately forecast with any sort of predictability which in which inmate in individually will go on to commit further violence. you say it's more of a tool to understand general kind of um additions in the or general you know statistical anomalies or movements in the population of prisoners. So again, this is not going to be clearly defined that this expert is being brought in so the jury can feel comfortable that giving him life without the possibility of parole means that he won't be a continued danger. Except that he's burying the lead, that death row inmates are separated from general population.
And you know what was the big thing that got this monster to be violent? Oh, a change in his routine. you know what's really not, you know, routinely prison, unless you're in death row, >> selling food, things like that. Um, uh, but I do know it has been used in various prison systems around the country. I don't know specifically if Texas is routinely using the interpretive report that I created, uh, in relation to evaluating people.
>> So, are you familiar with specialy number one in Texas capital?
>> Yes.
And in this case, did you examine Tanner Horn? I >> I did not.
>> Can are you going to express an opinion as to the likelihood of him committing criminal acts of violence in a society that is TCJ?
>> I'm not.
>> And this is the point where the jury is really going to notice. Why? If I were a jury member, I would be writing down right now, why didn't this expert look at this defendant? Why are we not getting information from the defense about how this defendant that we have to make a choice for is going to react in prison?
It, you know, again, the jury is a lot smarter than the defense gives them credit for some time. And they have to be wondering why we're not getting clear evidence as to why in particular the defense is persuading uh, you know, the jury to save this man's life. and I don't know that this is the guy to do it.
>> But based upon your expertise in forensic and correctional psychology, personality disorders, and psychological assessments, and your research in those fields, you have opinions about the likelihood of violent behavior inmates in general, and what information factors or types of assessments would be useful in determining violence.
>> Sorry, I didn't let you finish. A long question. Um, so you've given a lot of long questions and answers so far, but kind of break this down for me. We're talking about personality disorders, personality pathology, that kind of thing. What are we talking about?
>> Right. So the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, which I'll refer to as just the DSM5, uh, includes in it a section of mental health issues called personality disorders. Uh, and that's something I've done lots of research on uh, over the years of my career. Uh and a personality disorder in the broadest sense is a long-standing pattern of pervasive uh impairment or distress that people experience uh that is tied to essentially various personality features that they uh exhibit uh that can cause uh problems or conflicts in their lives.
Uh the DSM includes uh numerous specific types of personality disorders, but the general definition of a personality disorder is that it's a long-standing uh set of problems related to personality traits that people have uh that can cause them conflict with other people or cause themselves to experience distress.
Uh and that those are patterns that are generally uh somewhat stable over time and usually first start to appear in late adolescence or early uh child, I'm sorry, early adulthood, not early childhood. uh and that is in contrast to some extent to most other psychiatric disorders which tend to wax and wayne in terms of the severity of the symptoms that people may experience. Uh personality disorders are ones that are uh generally um you know relatively stable although they oftentimes do decrease uh with age in terms of their severity. Uh and yeah that's one of the areas I've done lots of research in.
Okay, first of all, back up and tell me what the DSM5 is. In plain terms, what we >> Yeah, so the DSM5 is the manual of diagnostic information produced by the American Psychiatric Association. Uh, and it's DSM5 because it's the fifth iteration of it. Uh, there was DSM 1 through uh 4. uh and uh this is the most recent uh evolution of it in terms of uh the psychiatric community putting out essentially a di a diagnostic manual that clinicians rely on uh to try to make diagnosis about the different types of mental health problems that people can experience.
>> So if you are in the field of mental health and you're making a diagnosis or doing research or anything like that, is this the manual you would look to or are there other options?
uh there uh there is the international classification of diseases which insurance companies sometimes rely on for and that's much broader than mental health issues specifically uh but the uh categories in that are pretty much similar to the DSM as it relates to mental health problems so there's a personality disorder section within the ICD but they're largely interchangeable and in the US uh in like legal arenas and things like that when you see somebody talking about a mental health diagnosis of some sort typically they're referring to a DSM5 diagnosis.
>> Now, in those DSM5 diagnosis, and forgive me, I'm not a psychologist, but we hear about things like developmental disorders, mood disorders, things like that. Um, can you talk a little bit about how that's differentiated from a personality disorder and that sort of thing? What what is what are we looking for there?
>> Sure. So, uh, as I was saying before that, uh, you know, many of the disorders in the DSM wax and wayne in terms of the severity of the symptoms or whether or not somebody even meets the diagnostic criteria. So for mood disorders, uh many mood disorders are ones that somebody can exhibit for months such as major depression and then may uh basically return to a normal sort of baseline functioning. Uh there may be cyclical episodes where they experience extreme depression again. Uh bipolar disorder which we used to refer to as manic depression is another one where they're cyclical periods of severe depression essentially and uh extreme sort of manic types of symptoms. But there also periods of time during that where individuals aren't necessarily having symptoms. Uh and the the difference there is that you don't have a necessarily a specific point in time where you expect to see uh those symptoms first start. Whereas with personality disorders again uh the expectation is that something there should be signs of it in late adolescence or at latest sort of early adulthood. And again those characteristics of one's personality generally don't wax and wayne as much.
uh although the if you do look at long-term as I was saying uh the diagnostic stability even of these quote unquote personality disorders uh sometimes are relatively unstable uh and part of that is probably the unreliability of psychiatric diagnoses which is one of the reasons why we're at DSM5 uh is because the history of psychiatric diagnoses in terms of the the stability of two different examiners coming to the same diagnostic conclusion uh has been relatively poor and so over the years there have been numerous attempts to make psychiatric diagnoses more uh consistently diagnosed across uh experts in criminal justice settings but just in general mental health practice as well. Uh so even though personality disorders are uh uh generally construed as being relatively stable they are subject to change and somebody might be diagnosed at one point uh with a that personality disorder and later on especially if evaluated by somebody else might not reach that same diagnostic conclusion.
and talk about differentiating personality and disorders. What >> and here's the problem with trying to put this in in very stark scientific terms. The replicability is not there um for the soft sciences as much as it is for say engineering and and uh physics.
You can have two different professors run an extremely similar experiment and if the study sample sizes or variabilities are off in people because people are unique and individual it can come to a completely different um conclusion. So it is very subjective which is why him trying to put a glaze of scientificness on this and kind of you can look at trends. You can look at you know this typical grouping and this typical grouping but it isn't an exact science in the way that he's trying to glaze it with a science kind of skin suit.
It is more variable.
Human behavior and human, you know, mental health is very much still a an an exploring, you know, kind of futuristic frontier that we still don't understand why humans behave they the way they do to a science. We don't have that. So, it's still very subjective. and the fact that he didn't even examine the defendant, I don't know what the jury is going to take from this >> developmental disorder.
>> Uh developmental disorders typically are ones where you're seeing uh them first appear in at some point during childhood. Uh and uh you know the symptoms relevant to those types of diagnoses uh are generally different from the sort of symptoms that you see in personality disorders. And you wouldn't diagnose a personality disorder in a child for example because we know that childhood personality traits are relatively unstable. Uh whereas developmental disorders generally oftentimes appear very early in childhood and the symptoms that you see do tend to be stable over time. Uh once that person reaches adulthood uh who has a uh you know developmental disorder there could be a diagnosis of a personality disorder potentially as well but you don't make those sorts of diagnoses. This is another point that the defense is really trying to uh make about this. Um they are trying to make that Tanner had developmental issues, not that he developed a personality disorder, if that's even the correct term or um manifested symptoms of a personality disorder later in his life. They are trying to make the causal link to a lot of his issues to be things beyond his control as far as the fetal alcohol syndrome, the exposure to lead paint and uh autism diagnosis and ADHD.
I believe those are all the his diagnosis. I I might be wrong though. I will let you guys know. Uh last night was pretty squirrely. Haggatha was on the rampage. So, I may be a little more squirly, but those are all the diagnoses I remember, you know, before somebody's uh, you know, approaching adulthood.
>> Okay. And so, you talked about psychological assessment. What are what are the what are we talking about there?
Uh well so psychological assessment is a very broad term involving using any sort of uh information to uh uh make either a diagnosis of somebody's functioning or so in some instances like in relation to the special issue. Uh uh psychological evaluations, mental health evaluations can be used to try to make a prediction about somebody's future behavior. Uh so it's a very broad term and and there are lots of different methods by which somebody might conduct an evaluation along those lines. Uh the risk assessment field or the violence risk assessment field uh does incorporate uh various types of information that would go into an attempt to predict what somebody's going to do in the future. Uh so that is an area within sort of the broader field of mental health or psychological assessment.
And just just clarify, we're talking about the developmental, I think you you're kind of separating that and saying you use one type of assessment in children when you're looking at developmental disorders, but these personality assessments would be later on in life and different sort of criteria.
>> Uh yes. Well, no, the I was saying the symptoms of those uh different disorders could be are are generally different from each other and the time period in which you would potentially diagnose those things is is generally very different. Again, you wouldn't try to diagnose a personality disorder in say a 12-year-old or something like that. Um, but developmental dis disorders such as, you know, autism or attention deficit disorder or things that you would expect to be seeing evidence of, you know, in an early childhood.
>> Okay. And you mentioned about trying to use psychological assessments, maybe personality disorder diagnosis to predict behavior inmates.
>> Yes, that's something that's been investigated by people in the field and in my research lab as well. And specifically, have those been used to try to render expert opinions on whether someone would constitute a continuing practice society?
>> Uh yes, if you look at the history of expert testimony in trials such as this, uh uh experts offering opinions about uh personality disorders generally speaking, as well as uh specifically antisocial personality disorder, which is one of the uh disorders under that broader category of personality disorders. uh that that sort of information has been introduced in quite a number of cases over the years to support the argument that somebody is a future danger.
>> And you said you conducted research and study to determine the scientific reliability and validity of of this kind of psychological testing among the inmate population.
>> Right. Well, the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder in particular is something that uh I've looked at with collaborators that I've published research with over the years. Um and uh yeah, we have published research looking at the issue of does having a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder uh it predict in any meaningful way the future uh behavior and adjustment of individuals who are actually incarcerated. Uh we published a study in 2015 looking at that >> with him focusing on antisocial personality disorder. Now, this hasn't been one of the things that has been disclosed by the defense, but it would seem to me at least that uh the defense is trying to get ahead of a possible diagnosis by another expert of um antisocial personality uh disorder or this could just be his specialty. But it does seem like there is a reason that the defense attorney is bringing this up. Um because as far as I am aware and I have been paying attention to the diagnosis that the defense has listed as sort of mitigating issue or factors in their opinion, antisocial personality disorder has not uh been mentioned. But that particular personality disorder is linked to increased violence, increased impulsivity, inability to regulate your um your emotions, things like that. So the other things the autism, ADHD, uh, lead exposure and fetal alcohol syndrome have not shown a very good causal link to violence. in the very limited research I've done. I am not a doctor, but you know, just in anticipation that the uh defense might be going with this, I did do a little cursory research that didn't show a lot of causal links with those particular diagnosis and violent behavior, but antisocial personality disorder definitely does have the potentiality for violence. And I do wonder if the defense is going to be trying to get ahead of that because maybe Tanner was assessed as that. And damn it, I meant to say the doofus.
>> Particular question of the that diagnosis and its relevance to future uh acts of aggression in prison uh uh and had about 350 individuals about 300 of whom were men uh in uh across four different prison systems and then looked at their uh institutional adjustment which we collected the information from the prison system itself. uh all prison systems in the US keep track of disciplinary infraction uh information and we were able to obtain that uh over uh the course of these individuals first year in prison. Uh so then we were able to see if there is any relationship between having that diagnosis uh or having specific symptoms of that diagnosis uh and the likelihood that inmates would get written up essentially for uh just general bad behavior but also uh violent acts in particular. Uh and the the short version of that the findings of that study was that those diagnoses were irrelevant to trying to figure out who would engage in misconduct uh in uh in those prisons over that time period.
>> And and when you say irrelevant, did that do you have like the actual number?
You said there were 350 inmates and this was prisons in Texas or across the US or what were >> uh these were uh we actually collected data for this project in uh in Texas but not in the prison system specifically.
It was actually at a safe P uh which was on the grounds of a prison but is a treatment facility. Uh so that that particular uh sample that was from Texas was not part of this because these were all uh individuals specifically you know new admits into prison facilities and I'm I'm blanking on the four specific prisons uh in terms of which ones they were. Um but uh yeah, so you know there was you know a face rate of uh misconduct and we were attempting to look at well can knowing that somebody has this diagnosis uh help you forecast basically the likelihood that this >> now I will just point out that 350 inmates is an incredibly small sample size. Um even the fact that he is going to desperate prisons. I mean if you were really going to look at the trend um as far as the entire prison population, there has to be a way that you could get um even with HIPPA general just um you know tallies of diagnosis and uh the incidences of you know writeups or demerits whatever you get in prison. I I am pretty sure they don't have like, you know, house points, but I'm guessing demerits or something.
So there is a way that you could do a generalized study, especially with him being as generalized and non-specific as he is, but this particular samp sample size is so incredibly small that you can you can in in the softer sciences play with the variables of your test to gear your your to gear your study to prove prove your hypothesis. Now that's just my general observation of the softer sciences. I am sure there are a lot of good people uh doing really actual foundational science, you know, critical thought research, but a lot of it in the softer sciences that I've just observed have have been relatively small sample sizes, relatively um very limited kind of questioning or self-report. So there are there is a lot to be desired with some of these studies that uh you know experts will hold out as completely foundational >> person is more or less likely to get uh you know written up for as some sort of aggressive conduct or just any kind of misconduct at all. Uh and uh we found essentially that there was no relationship. So knowing that somebody was or was not diagnosable was having antisocial personality disorder in that study uh was irrelevant to trying to figure out who over that first year would engage in any kind of misconduct.
>> And also were you involved in a large peer-reviewed study that looked at cases where the prosecuting experts had actually testified that the defend was likely to engage in criminal acts of violence in the Texas prison system?
>> Yes. So this is a totally different study uh that I was involved with several years ago. And as I said uh earlier when I was describing I guess my interests uh in addition to looking at uh like risk factors for violence, one of the other areas I'm very interested in is clinicians uh mental health professionals ability to make those types of claims or forecasts or predictions as to whether somebody will or won't engage in violent behavior in the future. uh and I got involved in a project where that was >> because it's a multiffactorial question again it has different potentialities.
Will this person be violent in a very controlled situation like death row?
Yeah, you can probably safely say if he is put on death row he will never be violent or he has the very low potentiality of causing more violence.
That question changes if you say I is he is the potentiality for violence there if he goes into gen pop. Well, Tanner has already proved that any change in his routine, any any, you know, fluctuation in something he can't control sets him off. In fact, he responded to, according to his own words, a change in his route and schedule caused him to unal alive a little girl in the worst way possible. So he blamed, you know, dysregulation of a schedule.
It's a very different question if an expert who has examined him opines on his again, you don't have you have not examined him. That question has a lot of different potentialities. It has a lot of different layers to it. And the fact that you just look at it on a very top layer without any nuance is absolutely ridiculous and makes a farce of science and you're trying to use science. So could you please use it correctly?
>> Is exactly what was being investigated.
Uh there was a sample of uh 155 cases that we were able to identify where someone uh facing capital murder proceedings uh was uh in their trial had an expert witness testify to the special issue that somebody was a continuing threat uh to society. Uh and this information came from you published court cases uh you trying to find the sample of cases uh the Texas uh courts you publish uh some of those cases so you can locate them that way. uh not myself personally, but other people involved in the project uh uh were involved in trying to track down cases by contacting district attorney offices around the state to identify cases where this type of testimony was being offered. And so we ultimately found 155 of these where again there was an expert who went into court and said this person uh you know meets that special issue and is a future danger to society that there is a probability that they will uh you know engage in a criminal act of violence. Uh and then what we did as part of that study was then to follow up over the time period of these individuals when they were incarcerated what actually happened with them in terms of their >> they're on death row. Again, this is this is such a ridiculous question on the face of it because it severely severely misses the point. These individuals were not allowed to commit future violence because the the juries in those cases made the correct choice and separated them from society.
You have different layers of society.
You have by yourself because you can't be trusted with a dagon person. You have gen pop which you're you're not you can't be in regular society but at least you can keep your hands to yourself generally. And then there is regular society where we trust you, you know, as much as you trust anyone. And I look both ways on one-way streets because I cover trials.
This is this is infuriating.
Um because he is trying to use science and expertise to make a dumbass argument and it is irritating on behalf of a monster. behavior. Uh, and these were all individuals, I should have pointed out, uh, were ones that the, uh, uh, the the defendant in the case did get a death sentence. So, these are not ones where the, uh, uh, >> you answered your flipping question right there. Yeah, they're on death row.
They're they're locked up 23 hours a day. What you are noticing, the pattern you're noticing is the system working.
You're welcome. I feel like I need to become uh the guy from Moana, like the the death row. I invented that. You're welcome.
I mean, yes, the system works. We keep violent people by themselves and they don't commit more violence. I'm glad that you're on the same page as the rest of us.
>> The result of the case was that somebody got life uh without parole. So these were all cases where somebody was initially put on death row. Uh and we uh got information about their uh functioning in prison from the prison systems. Again, getting disciplinary uh information about their uh just general conduct as well as their um you know potential for uh or their actual uh violent acts while uh in the prison system. Uh and we also collected information from the special prosecution unit, contacted them about additional information. the special prosecution unit is responsible historically at least has been for uh uh investigating crimes within the prison itself and potentially pursuing charges against individuals. So we got information from both uh of those sources of information uh and then looked at uh of these 155 predictions well 155 claims that somebody was a future danger uh looked at what these individuals actually do over the course of their time in prison.
And when you're looking that study when that took August, who was responsible for that study? You worked on that study, but who was it in charge of?
>> Uh the the journal article that was published in a peerreview outlet, I was the first author on that. Uh I was not uh I was involved primarily in terms of statistical analyses and and doing other and the write up of that. Um the Texas Defender Service is the agency that initially started that. This is actually a really clear um kind of difference of perspective in the field of academics and kind of that ivory tower that really gets to divorce itself from its subject matter and then the people who actually work in the corrective system because I'm guessing you would get a different perspective as to why these inmates didn't go on to commit further violence from the guards, the warden at burdens and people that actually worked within the prison. They would probably give you an indication that um it is because the system has, you know, looked at all the the variables of weakness and has really tightened those up to the point that there really isn't an opportunity for these people to commit violence on death row.
So again, I just I really dislike the dishonesty of this, but the the sad thing is and and this is a compliment, but it's going to sound really douchy.
This this expert is obviously very passionate and feels like he is doing an incredible service to humanity.
But in that sort of myopathy or myopic vision that people who don't have to live in the real world get these kind of ivory tower academic you know people don't get the real world complications of what they're asking for these these inmates were not violent because the system worked. They c they were assessed as potentially being, you know, a violent threat to other inmates and they were isolated. And we can have a whole separate other talk about what isolation does to the human psyche and whether that's good or bad. We can have a completely different conversation about that.
But dear Lord, this is so disingenuous and I I really don't like it because there are experts who are doing really good research and he makes a mockery of it >> project uh and I became aware of it. I don't really remember how exactly. I believe I met some of them at a conference or something like that, but I was I became aware that this uh was something going on that was very of interest to me. Can people actually go into court who make this claim? uh what happens in terms of the behavior of the people who were described as being a future danger. So uh and they needed help doing statistical analyses and analyzing the data. Uh and so we worked on that together. So uh you know I'm the first author of the published article that came out of that. Uh Texas Defender Service is the the agency that initiated the project.
>> What does that mean to be the first author?
Uh well so uh when in scientific publications it basically authorship order is supposedly uh driven usually by uh the first author is the person who did the most work to get the uh the research published and then the second author did the second most amount of work and so on and so on. So um you know it's basically an indication of >> Yeah. Yeah. I remember that.
And for legal reasons, I can't say whether or not I I funded his honey bun account.
Again, it is okay to ideologically for moral reasons be to be against the death penalty or even for cynical reasons like me to think that the federal well the government rarely does anything right. I mean, if y'all have been to the DMV because they mess something up. I mean cynically, but there are certain cases where I think we can all agree if every tea is crossed and every D eye is dotted.
Come on now.
And there is a way to do this. There is a way to put up this defense if if you do have a deeply, you know, held moral conviction against the state being in charge of capital punishment. But to try to use science to equate two very different things or to lead the jury to have a false impression is is unacceptable in my opinion >> like how much you contributed to the project.
>> Now one thing I'm curious about there is you said you're familiar with special one which talks about criminal acts of violence that lead to the jury to define what that means. What criteria were you looking at in that study? Uh so in terms of the outcomes that we looked at, we got again all of the disciplinary records. Uh and then we were able to classify those into differing levels of severity in regards to how problematic the future behavior was that people engaged in uh if they engaged in any misconduct at all. And 20% of those uh 155 people had no disciplinary misconduct writeups at all. So there there was nothing in those cases. But then we looked at, you know, generally did somebody get written up for any sort of intraction. Uh and then we looked at increasingly severe forms of uh things that uh would be of relevance to considering what you know, again, how quoteunquote dangerous might somebody be. So we looked at things like uh making, you know, verbal threats uh towards other inmates or staff. That's a disciplinary write up you can get in prison. Uh the disciplinary code books for prisons all share a general similarity kind of around the country.
Uh and there are different categories of you know behavior that uh are you know sanctionable if you break the rules. Uh and some of those are you know non-violent things such as having contraband in your cell or or things of that nature. Uh and then some of the things you can get written up for obviously have the potential to be a violent sort of circumstance. So making a threat to somebody uh potentially could lead to violence. Um uh and then we had another category where we're actually looking at specifically uh violence that the prison system would classify as uh severe or significant.
And the prison system's kind of definition of a significant or severe sort of violent act is one that would require more than first aid. Uh so for example, if you needed to get stitches after an altercation, uh that would be something beyond uh that would be a severe sort of category of potential violence. And then obviously as well we looked at were there any murders that were committed by these individuals. Uh in part because uh historically there have been experts who have not only said that somebody is a danger in the future but made predictions along the lines that you know that somebody will kill again in the future if not for put to death. So obviously murder is something that would be of relevance as well. uh and as you might guess if uh for each of those things that I was talking about uh in terms of outcomes uh the more extreme the outcome uh the less commonly it occurred among those 155 people uh you know threats were something that >> yes but I'm not going to you know trust the laws and lord of statistics and run around with a lightning rod during a thunderstorm because you know it's very unlikely that I'll get struck by lightning anyway.
No, there are a reason. Oh, dear God.
These are ris this man is this man should not be a science person or uh somewhat prevalent over the disciplinary histories of these individuals. Um when you looked at that more severe category of uh uh violence requiring something more than first aid uh as a a an outcome uh what we found was over more about a 10-year follow-up period for these individuals uh that eight out of the 155 had engaged in that type of violent act in prison. So about 5%.
>> Okay. I'm not a mathologist. What is eight out of 150 whatever he just said?
So 10. Let's Let's just do 10%. Oh my gosh, I'm turning into the teacher from Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. One, I can't do 1%.
Okay, anyh who, let's just take that and do so about 10% roughly vaguely mathematically 10% of the inmates go on to further be violent. So you want us to gamble on the fact that there is a in a very small sample size a potentiality for 10% one in in 10 inmates to go on to be furtherly violent.
Yeah, I have better odds picking up an Oreo off the ground after 3 seconds and I trust the Oreo more. So no thank you.
of those 155 people uh and there were no murders in the follow-up during that time period.
>> So 100% of those individuals had an expert testify that they would be a future danger and 5% of them had required birth.
>> Yes.
>> When you talked about started talking about infractions, what what type of >> Okay. I'm really bad with math. This is why I'm I'm I'm not a mathologist.
I was way off.
Are we talking about just an infraction under the general prison rules?
>> Yeah. So again, the the inmates get when they go into prison systems lots of information about how you're supposed to behave uh and in particular what things you cannot do uh to uh >> why do I get the impression that this expert feels like it's really mean for the prison to tell these inmates what to do? It's really stressful on the poor inmates that they are required to, you know, uh, be responsible, live by rules and order. Why do I have a feeling that this man has deep personal convictions that these inmates shouldn't have to follow the rules because it's mean?
>> Uh, and if you do those things, then you will get written up for them and you may have things happen like uh, you know, extreme forms, you may be put you may be charged with a new crime. uh less extreme, you may be put in segregation.
Uh you may have your housing uh classification uh uh modified to where you have to go into uh a more a more severe kind of restrictive environment.
So the disciplinary infractions basically reflect uh it's probably not technically right to call them the laws within the prison system, but the things that you will get punished for if you engage in those types of behaviors. And they range again from things that I don't believe anybody would consider violent potential uh necessarily such as having um you know extra uh blankets in your cell or something like that.
>> No. Again, the problem with not following the rules indicates that you cannot fit within society.
The part of prison that's about rehabilitation is teaching people that there are rules. There are limits in society and you have to color within those lines. You have to follow the rules. So if you cannot follow the rules in prison, we cannot follow we cannot trust you to follow the laws in outside society. It's not just about, you know, well, I don't think it's wrong that they should have an extra blanket. No, these are rules. Welcome to losing your freedom. This is what prison's about.
You have to listen to someone else. if you didn't [ __ ] up your life, you could have as many blankets as you want.
>> Uh to again more extreme sorts of uh behaviors such as fighting uh you know and uh you know rioting things of that nature. So there's a broad range of different things that people get written up for. And so once again, 100% of those in your sample had a safe testify they were in future danger and 20% of them didn't even get a ride for things like too many blankets, things like that.
>> Again, not to belabor the point, but they're on [ __ ] death row.
It It's not like It is not like they have access to the laundry.
Um, was there any push back against your study after that one was published?
>> Uh, not in any sort of scientific outlets or publications sort of questioning the uh, results themselves. I have testified about the results of this work in previous cases over the years. uh and I'm aware that there have been some uh some things written about the study uh in regards to questioning the validity of what was found in it uh just through cross-examination.
>> No, I I question it. Look, I the logic the math doesn't math.
Again, I get that you're genuinely earnest about this, but you are being so incredibly deceptive and disingenuous with what your your study is showing.
The potentiality for violence was blocked because of a correct assessment for the potentiality of violence. You can't therefore look back and say, well, they were stopped from doing 100 or they were stopped from doing the majority of the violence. Therefore, they were assessed wrong.
No, that you you eliminated the possibility at the beginning of your experiment that they were that there was a potential that they were actually correctly assessed and that violence was mitigated.
So when you take out that that entire logic line, then it makes it your entire profession look far. If 100% of the experts are wrong, you do realize that you are completely putting a grenade in your entire field of study by basically saying 100% of the experts were wrong.
You do realize this. I mean, I may be not the smartest, you know, ologist in the book, but you do realize that you're making your entire profession sound like little actually less accurate than those things that you make in middle school where you do like yellow. Yeah. Ye E L.
You are less in you are less correct than a seventh grade fortune teller item. Is that what you're making the argument out? Because you know I'll agree with you.
>> Things of that nature. Uh so there have been some criticisms of it but uh I have not seen anything that fundamentally uh counters that argument that when somebody uh comes into court and makes those sorts of claims that if you look at the actual behavior of the individuals going into the future again for on average a solid decade um uh that uh uh that these are individuals who are committing severe acts of violence.
Again, the prison system would classify as violent or that they're committing, you know, future murders in, you know, in the prison sort of setting.
>> And you already mentioned one study that conducted later with the 350 people across prison system. Have there been other studies or research that you're aware of or that you've been involved in that corate your findings?
>> Uh, there was there was a follow-up study published uh later on uh by a psychologist named Mark Cunningham. I believe he was the lead author that looked at predictions uh uh in I believe it was federal capital murder cases primarily uh um if I'm remembering that correctly. It may not be me actually uh but it was predictions of future dangerousness uh and looking at outcomes as it related to the same sort of thing in that particular instance. Uh Dr. Cunningham uh was uh testified I believe in all of those cases and offered uh the opinion that someone did not meet that special issue and was not a future danger. Uh and that study you know the outcomes there were relatively similar in terms of then looking into the future are those individuals were they likely to engage in violent behavior in the prison settings. Uh and that again found a very low rate that those individuals uh were you know uh getting for serious violence. So, are you telling me that there was another study which completely ignored the hypothesis that these these inmates had been correctly assessed as having a potentiality for future dangerousness and that had been mitigated um as proven by the lack of uh you know future violence. So that was never a a thought that any of you had that these inmates had actually correctly been assessed. No, you were so so worried about these poor, you know, inmates on death row. And look, I know that there have been miscarriages of justice. And I do not want to cosign the system of justice that I believe in with those miscarriages of justice.
But all it is is sticking in my craw that there are so many dagon experts that are just there to cry for the dagon monsters.
Won't someone think of the monsters?
It's so mean that they're all isolated.
And look, I am a very very nuanced person. So I am outraged right now that I'm speaking about this that Richard Allen is is having to live under these circumstances because I do believe quite fully in my heart that that was a miscarriage of justice and I want that fixed because I don't want that on my state.
But this this right here is the disingenuous stuff that's going to get you thought that three strikes you're out was was tough.
Have enough of these experts negate victim's pain and it's going to go to one strike you're out >> and uh in that study as well I'm uh there were not if I'm recalling correctly any murders committed by those individuals uh who were followed up over an extended time period as well.
this probably a good time to talk to the jury if you know about um what class population are we talking about in TCP DJ.
>> Uh sure. So, the Texas prison system, the uh the census waxes and and waines uh uh over the years, but historically uh you're talking about uh a prison population in Texas in the state system, not not including federal prisons in Texas, uh of anywhere from >> and this is where the slide of hand, this is where the disingenuous [ __ ] uh needs to get called out because now he is going to start extrapolating to the general population which he did not in any way study. he is going to try to take these numbers and say well this means that in general population he'll be fine. No. No. He did not study general population. He did not uh you know do papers on the genp pop you know population. No his studies were specifically for inmates that were under 23-hour lock and key. So I'm sorry but it is not apples oranges comparison.
There are so many nuances. And if you really want to be scientific, you have to do a clearly informed test with the right population.
You know, 135,000 to 150,000 people. So, it's a very very large system of uh obviously in terms of it's basically collectively the size of a small city.
I think anecdotally television media, you kind of envision that as being just kind of a hot bed of murder. Is that what the statistics actually show?
>> A hot bed of murder.
Also, who the hell thinks that TV and Hollywood are real life?
This is the kind of it is treating the general public and the jury like morons and I find it offensive.
>> Uh the word hotbed is a yeah you know that that I don't want to I'll just be descriptive I try to be. Uh so yes, I have seen media headlines particularly particularly uh recently about uh things like the homicide rate in PDCJ which historically was uh you know very low.
There were you know years in the 90s and 80s where there would be very very few uh homicides within the prison system.
Uh over the last decade or so uh those uh numbers have gone up somewhat. I believe the highest number of homicides in recent memory was 20 in one year. I believe that was 19 I'm sorry 2023. Um uh and again any homicide is a horrible thing. I'm not in any way trying to triv trivialize that or minimize that. But that's 20 homicides again out of a a a system that has 1335,000 people in it. So you're talking about things that are >> So again, never is there a thought that maybe this is down to the assessments made by legitimate professionals of dangerousness of all of those inmates and placing them in the correct, you know, facilities or level of security to meet their needs.
That's never considered that the system might be functioning in the way it's intended. I mean, I get that you don't want the system to be functioning because you feel that the system is mean, but as a scientist, you should be open to the hypothesis, the potentiality that the system is working as intended and correctly, at least in as well as all giant organisms can.
extremely rare uh in terms of trying to prevent them. So uh you know it is uh it is that type of extreme violence is is very very uncommon and as you highlighted uh it runs counter to public perceptions about exactly how violent prone you know prisons actually are there. defense. Again, far be it from me to to kick you while you're down, but I don't think you understand that a majority of people watching this particular uh trial would not are are actively hoping that your your defendant gets sent to Genpop, not because he's going to have a great time. So I I don't think you you get that the people that are rooting for him to go to Genpop are are very well aware that these stats are are quite dismal if you are found to have hurt an innocent angel child.
There was one uh survey conducted years ago uh actually asking people who had served on capital juries about what they thought the the likelihood of future murders were among people who were facing capital murder charges. And the the estimate was that people thought that there was about a 50/50 chance that somebody would kill again uh in the future. uh and you know that that is obviously a very different uh statistic than 20 out of 135,000 people you know in any kind of given >> no because you're asking a broad uh question that you know that the public is going to take one way yes the man is making me need nicotine sorry don't do what mama does okay mama mo is a hot mess priestess neither is she Jesus or so do not do as she does but this man is assaulting science and is hurting my soul.
I I I really don't like this man. Again, none of this is predicated on and you can we can discuss the the things that need to change in our prison system if we really want to rehabilitate those that can be rehabilitated and the functional changes that would have to happen. But what won't get people that are that are on my side that um really really are at compassion fatigue for monsters?
You're not going to get us to the table by lying by being disingenuous by by obuscating the truth through a thin veneer of science.
And it's it's very very irritating. Now, the state is going to get on him about all of this, so thank goodness. But the defense is taking for freaking ever >> here. And again, that 20 was the largest number that I've ever seen. It's been much lower than than that in various years in the past.
>> And then in the sample or the reach of the 155 inmates who had been testified that they were a future danger, there were zero murders. Correct.
>> Correct.
>> And 5% had some type of violence that required more than a person. Yes.
>> So based on your research, I guess based on your whole career, have you uh been able to identify sort of best practices for predicting human behavior for inmates in the incarceration setting? Uh yes, I mean there are there's a lot of research that has looked at uh trying to improve on our ability as a field collectively to identify who will and won't engage in violent behavior uh both in prisons and outside of prisons as well.
>> Yeah, Dr. Duven Schmz, how are you going to fix this? Because you've just spent an hour telling us that all the experts in your field are 100% wrong. How they can't diagnose, you know, their way out of a paper bag. So how are you going to redeem your entire profession? Go >> and there is a body of uh knowledge about sort of how to go about trying to forecast those types of issues and there are known risk factors that uh can move the needle a little bit in terms of improving our accuracy of trying to make those predictions. Uh so yes, I would say there's a methodology that can be employed that um uh improves on our general ability to try to forecast who would or wouldn't engage uh in those types of behaviors. Uh although again uh in regards to the more extreme types of uh violence such as again things resulting in uh injuries requiring more than first aid, uh you're talking about uh a an incidence of those things that's relatively small overall in the general prison population. uh and murders uh it's a fraction of that as well obviously. So anytime you're trying to uh forecast a very unlikely event you are likely to make a lot of errors in trying to make that prediction. Uh the >> no because again the question that is being asked of the jury about future dangerousness is colloquially being asked as in general population. If he had to go out into the public, if he were released right now, do we believe that he would un alive again?
Absolutely, 100%. That is the question being asked. Now, you're mutating it into if he goes to prison or death row, what is his potentiality of violence?
Now, quite frankly, and this is going to sound mean, uh that is not the question that the jury is being asked. Now, do I want inmates to uh be in fear? No, I don't. I think that inmates are people for the most part, not the defendant.
I'm a complicated, multiaceted person.
That being said, you you are you are mutating the question and you know it.
You know that the common sort of understanding of that question of the potentiality of violence is if he were left in society and you have mutated it and and fudged it and finessed it so that it it shows your your wanted outcome which is that all of the you know professionals that don't agree with me are stupid.
And that's really dangerous because you are really really discrediting your own profession while trying to build up your own ego and your own point.
>> Example I use oftentimes like when I teach undergraduate classes in forensic psychology is you know when I was uh I guess in my uh early 30s or late 20s the uh the the horrific Coline shooting happened uh in the United States where there was a mass shooting at schools. Uh and very quickly after that, media started talking about profiles of school shooters and the risk factors for who might engage in those types of uh uh actions. Uh and the profiles identified characteristics that were, you know, tied to what they was known about the Coline shooters. And it was things like, you know, being socially isolated and bullied, you know, interest in anti- athority sort of music. Uh >> and this is about the time that the soft sciences really took a hit because they came out with these very very surface level kind of observations instead of a deeply nuanced approach to this. They wanted a one sizefits-all.
This is how you can easily identify someone. And the problem is is that humans aren't like that. We are varied.
Uh we do follow general trends. There can be characteristics that link us together, but we are individual and unique. So again, it's it's a hard science. There are things that are likely with, you know, certain crimes and behavioral characteristics and, you know, personality traits that tend to go to certain crimes. But it's not a one-sizefits-all. and he's trying to make it a one-sizefits-all because it it agrees with his moral or political stands, >> violent video games, things of that nature. Uh, and you know, those things may have been relevant to picking out those uh individuals. The the issue is that lots and lots and lots of teenagers uh have all those characteristics as well. So, if you try to use that profile to identify who's likely to shoot up a school and engage in a mass murder, then you're going to end up making a lot of mistakes. Uh and that's one of the biggest sort of drawbacks to trying to make predictions that somebody will be violent in the future is that uh for these extreme forms of violence that we've been talking about uh that's a very hard thing to do because you end up identifying what we call as a lot of false positives. People that you would predict might engage in that behavior but who ultimately are not ones who would engage in that and and were we're not acting violently at all. So there you're fighting an uphill battle if you're trying to predict something that's rare.
>> Yeah. And just to make sure we're not confused that we're not when you're doing your studies on violence predicted violent behavior, we're not limited to murder. We're saying that threshold of anything that requires stitches is anything required.
>> Yes. Yeah.
>> You talk about factors that um do show some reliability. Um and then I guess there's there's ones that have not proven to be. Can you talk a little bit about the ones that haven't have been used that have not proven to be reliable?
>> Uh sure. And I and I don't think I even listed the ones that do have some relevance. So >> I thought you were gonna go back and hit those.
>> Okay. Uh so um yeah, so when you know why uh when people make incorrect predictions about anything, what what are the things that kind of lead to that? Uh and uh there um one of the big issues that we see is that when practitioners try to determine whether somebody will be violent in the future.
Uh and this is again a general statement not specific to uh prisons necessarily but applicable there as well is that uh you oftentimes see people focusing on uh what they think are risk factors that make somebody more dangerous but in reality uh research that's investigated that has suggested that those things actually aren't uh uh predictive of the outcome that you're interested in. And so the big one that >> So you're telling me that people in your profession not only don't even know the correct criteria to to even predicate a kind of study on futuristic violence.
They often don't aren't up to date on the most current research uh in what those traits actually should be currently due to best practices.
Way to go for making your profession look awesome. What is it you say you do here?
>> That has been my main involvement in the criminal cases that I get involved in uh historically is the use of antisocial personality disorder as a risk factor.
uh uh and that is one where again the studies that we've published and other research that's been conducted suggest that that diagnosis is just not useful in terms of identifying who's likely to be violent in a prison setting or not.
Um uh and part of the issue for antisocial personality disorder is that uh it's uh even though only about 3% 3 and a half% of men in the general population have that diagnosis based on epidemiological studies uh in prison settings uh the the base rate of that diagnosis has been estimated to be uh it depends on the individual study but roughly 75 to 80% of >> So you're saying that antisocial behavior disorder actually does have a predictive um at least function in forecasting future violent behaviors.
So, you're saying that there have been well legitimish studies and even statistical studies that do show that it is a predictive factor in prison population.
It's almost like there's fascinating study in in that actual science >> inmates can be diagnosed with that uh uh disorder. So, it's an extremely common thing that you see uh in part because the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder is based on one's history of having engaged in criminal behavior. So, it's a very common thing uh in those settings and you're trying to use that to then make a prediction about a relatively rare event, you know, in terms of serious acts of violence uh in these types of settings. And then even in addition to that, uh you know, issue of the the commonality of it, uh again, the studies that have looked at can you use this diagnosis and and winnow down the pool of people who will be violent or not in a prison setting, it just does not seem to be able to predict that. So, uh, focusing on that, uh, another common risk factor that gets focused on a lot in these clinical determinations is, uh, the, and, this one is somewhat counterintuitive, but the, uh, uh, the, uh, offense characteristics, uh, in regards to the crime that led to the person being incarcerated. So, >> Oh, no. Oh, no. I think it is very, very relevant the particulars of the offense that got you on death row. I I think that's incredibly relevant to again the very multiffactorial, multivariable uh you know nuanced study into whether you will futuristically be violent.
Now it might show that your you know particular prey or that your particular victim victimology indicates that you have a preference towards young females.
let's just say uh but you know if starved for those uh particular I guess supply would you then be willing to be violent elsewhere again are you sure that you should be a spokesperson for your profession?
Um it is quite interesting that in terms of if you're trying to identify the people going into prison who are likely to be violent or not uh and engage in these sorts of infractions then the um the crime that got them put into prison is not a great risk factor for figuring out who's more or less likely uh to engage in those sorts of acts. Uh and so uh you know even though one might expect that there would be a strong relationship between say violence in the community and then violence in prison, what we actually know is that >> no no what that indicates is that bullies, violent bullies that pick on women much smaller than them are scared to death of people and men bigger than them. That's all that that all that proves is there's always a bigger monster. You will never usually be the top dog. That's all that proves that monsters are afraid of other monsters.
I didn't go to college. I could have told you that. I would have charged you in wigs though.
>> Uh the uh in terms of future behavior being predicted by past behavior. What's really much more relevant is somebody's past behavior in a similar sort of setting. So for example, there have been studies that have been published to suggest that people who have been violent in prisons in the past are more likely to continue to be violent in prison settings. Uh that makes kind of perfect sense. Uh but simply having a history of violence in the free world by itself not a great indicator that somebody is going to go on and get written up for violent behavior uh in an institutional setting. Um uh and so that context about where are you making this you know where is this person going to be uh and how is that going to impact uh their behavior is something that is really kind of critical that oftentimes gets ignored. And let's unpack some of that because you talked about that personality disorder diagnosis being common in in most prison populations partially because relying on the fact you've been charged with the crime, >> right?
>> It's kind of a circular large logic to say you're charged with a crime, you have personality disorder, you have a personality disorder, so you'll be violated.
>> Uh it I mean the diagnosis is not just a history of criminality. And in fact, the the diagnostic manual does specify that uh you know, crime absent the personality criteria uh that are listed uh is not supposed to be diagnosed as a personality disorder. So there are lots of reasons why somebody may engage in criminal acts. Uh the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder uh is not uh to be made simply because somebody has a history of crime, but most people who get that diagnosis do have that history. So it's not totally circular. Um, but there's a lot of overlap.
>> So, but you were saying that it's maybe 78% of the prison population might qualify for that.
>> Yes.
>> But in your study of people who had actually been convicted of capital murder, 5% of them had violence that was above the level of >> right. I mean, I don't know how many of those individuals had testimony that they >> I feel myself actively getting more Sheldon levels of angered at the insult to science and the scientific method and this man claiming to be anything related to Scientology.
Like I am having an almost Sheldon moment where I am, who this man is testing my limits.
>> Had antisocial personality disorder. We didn't have that information available to us. But that is a very common thing that gets brought up in those cases historically. and knowing some of the experts who testified in those cases, I I know anecdotally that they tended to rely on that diagnostic category to inform that prediction that somebody would go on to engage in criminal acts of violence.
>> Now, you said past behavior in an incarceration setting does have some predictive value. Were there other factors that you want to mention?
>> Yes. So uh in terms of the prison specific risk factors that have shown up in multiple studies trying to identify who is likely to engage uh in uh future violent acts, the foremost sort of robust factors that tend to show up that can help you move the needle in the direction of is somebody proportionally more or less likely to engage in violent acts. Uh a couple of them are relatively straightforward and also relevant in the real world. Uh but age is, you know, really in most studies the the best indicator of the likelihood that somebody will be violent in the future.
And that's very clear in prison-based studies as well. Uh younger inmates going into prison are uh quite a bit more likely to engage in and be written up for violent and aggressive acts as well as other types of infractions as well. Um uh and uh you know, so that's that's well established in the uh the field. Uh the other thing that actually is a strong uh factor is educational attainment. Uh and various studies have found that basically the lower level of educational uh accomplishment um uh the >> he's being so disingenuous again uh first of all yes education IQ um is uncomfortable but uh the lower your um assessed IQ is uh the more likely that you will have problem with impulsivity and you know delayed gratification. So you can, you know, find yourself grappling with, you know, behaving inappropriately or crossing societal or lawbreaking lines.
And yes, it's been known for years that teen boys are the highest offending group ever. Duh.
>> Texas prison system, for example, has a uh a test that is used to measure educational sort of accomplishment. the TAB and I'm forgetting what the acronym stands for at the moment, but it basically measures educational um issues and that is something that is a known risk factor as well. Uh lower uh educational accomplishment uh basically moves the needle in terms of higher levels of uh risk. Uh and then the other two factors uh are um uh you know prison uh gang membership uh is a risk factor that's shown up in uh multiple sorts of um studies that have been done both prison gang as well as street gang uh types of and so if there's a history of that that also uh increases the level.
The only relevant thing you have said in the last time you have been on here is that the monster is not in a a organized criminal unit. Okay, that is about the only thing relevant to anything that you that the jury has to figure out of risk that someone uh may experience uh may pose to acting out in prison. And I'm uh I believe I that was three. I'm leaving one out. Um, >> in addition to the behavior in a prison setting before >> uh oh well yeah past uh past period past period of incarceration. So having been in prison before in general uh and then especially if there has been uh violence uh in that during that incarceration period that that really moves the needle as well.
>> Okay. Now you said you talk about a younger age. What are we talking about?
Well, so in the published research in this area that's looked at it has found that you know if you group people into age groups 21 and younger in prison are far and away more likely to engage in violent.
>> Uh yes low ride I haven't uh covered that yet. Now Baker I believe uh Broken Baker has covered that particular hearing. Um I will be covering it uh in due course. Uh I will say that I am a mother of six and a wife of one. um for Mr. Mo. Uh so I I don't always have enough time to do everything contemporaneously or right as it's happening, but I will be covering that uh in the future and get written up for that uh early on during the period of incarceration. Um so and then it's basically a linear relationship. the older you get, the lower the likelihood the older you are when you go into prison, the lower the likelihood that you're going to engage in a serious sort of violent act. And as you age in prison, uh the uh the likelihood of uh you know, violent acts and just general misconduct tends to go down as well.
>> And when you were talking about lower education, what are what are we talking about there? So, like having a GED or a high school diploma is generally a positive uh indication of a lower likelihood of somebody getting written up for um for a violent act or misconduct in general.
>> Okay. I imagine that leadership whether it's outside or inside the prison system is something that um TDJ and other prison systems are focused in on. I'm sorry I didn't hear the first membership is something that whether it's you come into a prison having been a member of a gang or you join a gang in the prison is that something that prison systems try to keep track of form >> uh generally yes I mean that's the these are that has usually been something that was coded from institutional files that person is a known gang member or or something like that when they're looking at you again trying to use this information to forecast who is likely to be uh violent in the future.
Your honor, I'll pass this cross examination.
>> Let me ask you a couple of questions.
Um, also as part of your work as a professor, you also frequently testify on behalf of capital things, do you not?
>> Uh, I have uh frequently I I've actually tallied this up recently. I believe I've testified in um roughly counting this one and including hearings that were not necessarily before a jury um uh like an appellet issue. I I believe I've testified 15 or 16. This may be the 16th time since roughly 2000. So I do not testify I would say all that frequently.
I've been retained as a consultant in uh I believe it was roughly 55 cases uh to either uh provide some input about violence risk issues. Many of those are cases that are actually on appeal. So I'm involved uh with uh writing affidavit kind of summarizing a lot of the literature I've been trying to describe to you guys uh today. Uh putting that in written form as part of appeals that usually are involving raising questions as to whether or not uh you know somebody should get a new trial. uh um making an argument as to that because of um you know testimony that lacks scientific kind of a scientific basis as it relates to violence risk. So uh yeah, so about 55 total cases I've been involved in testified about 15 times >> and that's all on behalf of capital murder defendants.
>> Uh the they're all on behalf of the defense except one. Not all of them are capital murder cases, but the majority of them are. Yes. Uh the and the one case I testified in for the prosecution uh was not a capital murder case.
>> Again, that he seems very ideologically driven by an inherent either moral or even whatever sort of um disagreement he has with uh capital punishment as a concept.
>> And you're not here for free today, are you? Uh no. What's the ticket on getting you here today? Uh in terms of >> uh can you define ticket more? Are you talking about hourly rate or >> what's the up until today? What's your total bill for up until today in this case?
>> Uh I believe until today uh it would have been uh so my hourly rate uh for this case uh is $450 an hour. I've actually raised my rates to $550 an hour, but I'd agreed to work on this.
This doofus gets only fans money.
I can make up BS. Hell, I don't like math. I can make I love confirmation bias. Holy [ __ ] why am I not a psychologist?
>> Case prior to that. Uh so that's the billing rate. Uh and I believe it would approach uh probably around $6 or $7,000 total in terms of the hours spent uh involved in this case at this point.
I'm going try to go back through some of this stuff here with you. The first thing I want to hit here is that you being the author of the P AIC, is that correct?
>> CS. Yes.
>> CS. Okay. Um, but you're not aware of whether or not that's actually your interpretive report is being used in the TDCJ system.
>> Correct. So, we need somebody from TDCJ to see if they found that to be relevant and use in the TDCJ system.
>> Yes. because they are using as I said I I know the test itself which is independent of an interpretive report that gets spat out in relation to somebody's performance um uh is uh the test itself is used uh but I I don't know whether or not there people are using the interpretive report to make uh decisions about classification or anything >> wait so we're taking an already subjective test and adding more interpretation which is human and therefore fallible so we're doubling the human factor what in the name of Leninist bureaucracy making sense >> like that specifically in Texas and in this particular case um you were only hired to provide this information and some generalities on prison populations and risk and things of that nature.
Correct.
>> Correct.
You talked about in several occasions here about things being a a rare event.
I think you use that word several times.
>> Yes.
>> And let me just ask you, are you aware of the facts of this case?
>> I have a general knowledge of it having reviewed several uh reports that have been performed on Mr. Horner uh and reviewing some of the background information about the uh the case.
>> And I think you use the term rare and extreme cases. Did you use that term a minute ago? I think I >> I believe I did. Yes.
>> Okay. And so in this case, would you classify this case being a kidnapping, sexual assault and murder, a rare and extreme case?
>> Uh, in terms of compared to other capital murder trials, uh, >> I think I just fell in love with the state. He walked him in. He was like, "Hi, my little lamb. No, I'm not going to make you a lamb chop. Come here to my to my den." And this [ __ ] who apparently is proving his his theorem correct that he cannot predict anything uh didn't predict that he was walking into a trap that Admiral Abbar could see again. Admiral Akbar would like to call you. He says you need to phone a friend.
It's a tarp. I would say the yeah I don't know that I can actually answer that compared to just is that a rare and extreme and unusual uh event. Yes, absolutely. I mean kidnapping as a in of itself is a rarity in the prison system.
Correct.
>> I'm sorry. Kidnapping as a just as in and of itself is a rarity in the in the Texas prison system.
>> Yeah, I believe so. I I don't know the exact statistics, but I don't think that's a common uh thing that people are incarcerated for. Yes. And capital murder in and of itself is a rarity in the Texas prison system. Would you agree?
>> Yes.
>> And you wouldn't disagree with me that the kidnapping and sexual assault of an individual would not be extreme, would you?
>> No. That's that's very extreme. All right. And then coupled that with a murder on top of those together, that would make it even more extreme to you.
Correct. Extreme in terms of the severity of what happened? Yes.
Absolutely.
Now, you talked about we went over this study. You said that there was a 2015 study. Is that right?
>> Yes, that was. Sorry. Go ahead.
That was some form of behavior study.
Um, and you said that was during the first year of prison is when they did that study. Is that correct?
>> Correct. We looked at the uh diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder and then we were able to follow those individuals for a year in terms of their uh subsequent misconduct that was documented by the prison system.
>> So that study doesn't have anything to do with somebody that's been there 10 years.
>> It certainly doesn't go beyond that.
Although we do know that when you look at risk factors for prison violence that object is nonsponsible.
Uh the point I was simply going to make is that when prisoners do engage in violent and other uh types of infractions, particularly violent infractions, they tend to occur relatively early in their period of time in institutional settings. So that first year certainly is important and you can't extrapolate beyond that first year necessarily, but we do know that the likelihood of if somebody has gotten through the first year without a serious violent infraction, that does decrease the odds that later on after that first year, you're going to see them uh then suddenly start being violent. I mean, it can happen, but it's not as common. But yes, I would love to have in that study 10 or 20 year follow-up data. We didn't have the latitude of doing that. All right.
So the only thing you can offer as of that particular study is it only it applies to someone in the first year of prison.
>> Yes. Okay. The second study you talked about.
We were doing so good.
Uh, but that's actually it's it's happened less um since I've been incognito and have very little um tabs open. So, we might be close to figuring out what is going on with the Google. Mr. Mo was trying to explain to me that um contrary to my general understanding or lack of understanding of computers um knowing computers doesn't mean you automatically know what's wrong with them. It means that you uh can look at the various things that might be but you fix one thing and if it happens again then you fix another thing. So we are we are slowly narrowing down what the hell is wrong to possibly uninstalling this particular Google and reinstalling new Google. But I that is where I lose understanding.
What I will say is we've done better today and I was able to get my full craft video in without it blinking. So it's been a good day.
Yes. And those were all individuals on death row.
>> They were initially placed on death row.
Yes. Some of them were later um removed from death row.
>> So let's talk about this. Out of the 155 cases that were on death row. Um what what state were these people that you studied? These 155 people on death row.
>> Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mention that.
Those were all Texas cases. Okay. So let me ask you this. Uh as far as death row in Texas, death row in Texas is not the same as general population. Correct.
Correct.
>> And these individuals that you studied in Death Row, they are not permitted freedom of movement, are they?
>> Uh, some of them were because some of the time period that we were investigating was prior to them being moved to the Palinsky unit. Uh, so they were kind of overlapping part.
>> Did he say the Palansky move uh unit?
Wow.
Where can it go back again? Defense. Might I kindly suggest that uh in light of recent, you know, please um made by Rex Herman, one should not bring on an expert that looks like his skinnier brother. This man legitimately, if I saw him in Walmart, y'all know I profile everyone. I mean, this man looks like he stands in front of a mirrored and sings to Goodbye horses and has a quite sizable, you know, uh, well, just collection of lotion.
I'm not saying he's a fan of goodbye horses, but I'm just saying perhaps don't get Rex Herman's skinnier brother to be your defense expert witness.
>> Not permitted freedom of movement, are they? Uh some of them were because some of the time period that we were investigating was prior to them being moved to the Pinsky unit. Uh so they were kind of overlapping. Part of the time period was at Pinsky and part of it was the time period when actually they theoretically could have access to general population types and settings.
And then all the ones who were removed from death row were >> So it's Schrodinger's murder. Again, I don't care about theoreticals. Yes.
Theoretically those those guys got off of Alcatra. Theoretically DB Cooper is somewhere theoretically uh I don't know Tupac if you listen to Leticia Stalk is somewhere in the Bahamas. Okay.
Theoretical should kind of stay with physics. Okay.
>> We're back in general population. You'll agree with me that that death row is dramatically more restricted in what you have access to than general population.
>> Absolutely. And that death row in Texas um the individuals that are on death row are subject to increased scrutiny in searches and guard presence and everything else.
>> Yes. And in fact they are subject to such increased scrutiny that they are not transported from place to place uh with any other inmates. Correct.
>> Uh you're getting beyond my knowledge of that but I I will I don't know that for certain but that does not surprise me in the least.
>> Okay. And then with regard to death row inmates in Texas, they're not permitted uh contact visits as the inmates in general population are. Correct.
>> I believe so. Yes.
>> So, you took a study of people that um were severely restricted in their access to other inmates and that's the population you based your study on.
>> Uh that's what part of the study is based on. There were 48 individuals who were actually released from death row.
Uh two individuals who were actually released uh exonerated of their crimes.
Uh and we did look at their uh disciplinary infractions when released back into the general population as well.
So when we're when we're talking about that um you're not talking about a study of people that are in general population in Texas. This is only people that have that which you're talking about either partly on death row or not on death row.
>> Uh no, 48 of those individuals were released back into general population for an average of almost a decade uh in general population. And two of those 48 people actually committed one of those again violent acts that was severe enough that it warranted more than just first aid treatment. So those >> Wait a minute. So you're telling me that 48 of these 153 sample size, give or take a few went on to go to general population. And of those 43, one of those went on to violently attack someone to the point that they needed more than first aid.
How are you making a point that this man should not go to Old Sparky?
Is he another plant by the state? I feel like the state's palpitining from behind the scenes.
Is he the general Snook or Snoke? Heli wasn't important and he didn't have a backstory. So I don't care about his name either.
Were people in general population.
Let's talk. You mentioned something about there was forecasting when it applies to rare circumstances and you said there were errors and false positives. I think that's what your testimony words to that effect. Yes. And what you're talking about here is that in all of this stuff and prediction um you're not able to um with any degree high degree of certainty predict whether somebody will or will not commit acts of violence in prison, are you?
uh you are extremely at risk of making mistakes if you predict that somebody will uh however if you predict that somebody won't you are absolutely likely to make mistakes in that direction as well. So yes that that can happen. So you are making the argument that your pos your profession is useless when it comes to being helpful in any case.
>> Okie dokie.
>> Right. And so and and for example, uh I'm betting that you probably have an example in your head and all these studies where you would have indicated they would not have committed any types of criminal violence in prison and they did.
>> Correct.
>> Uh I have actually rarely offered a specific opinion about somebody's violence risk. My testimony has historically been more so about are these risk factors relevant to somebody's likelihood of engage.
>> Wait a minute. So you don't even believe in your own theorem enough to put your name behind it in specificity. Let me get this correct that you have spent your entire life with this these spec specified nexuses in your studies and yet you will not put your name on the line in specificity to prove your yourself wrong or right. But you will sit and critique from the safety of your teacher position the testimony of other experts. Am I getting this correct?
>> Engaging in violent acts. Uh so I off I do not go into court frequently and offer a specific opinion in part now because I've retired my license and that would be essentially engaging in the practice. uh which is why now I serve basically as the role of a what we would call a teaching expert or a content expert about well what do we know about violence risk factors but I don't offer even when I was licensed I didn't go into court and routinely offer opinions as to whether somebody was low moderate or high risk >> which means again you do not trust your hypothesis your your general you know ideas of why this is happening what is wrong enough to put your name to it as an expert effort to put your reputation on the line, but you are sure as hell willing to judge those that will.
>> Let me ask it a different way. There are people, you'll agree with me, that people have predicted based on your information here, that they would not commit criminal acts of violence in prison that did.
>> Uh, yes, I'm sure there have been.
>> And the reverse is also true.
>> I'm sorry. The reverse being >> meaning that you predicted they would commit criminal acts of violence and they didn't.
>> Are you referring to me specifically or just the general?
>> Holy God, you are teaching someone two ears, one mouth, listen using he's using small words in English.
I mean, you've given us all these generals and and generalities and risk factors and these things. And so, my question is, um, if your risk factors say somebody won't commit criminal active violence while they're in the incarceration setting, >> there's cases where they do.
>> Yes. And the reverse is also true where you've said we really think this person will commit criminal acts of violence and they don't.
>> Yes. Yes.
And with regard to your risk factors, two of the risk factors I think are potentially three when it comes to gang membership require people to already be in the institutional or prison system or have that happen in the past. Isn't that right?
>> Uh all of those risk factors are are past Yeah. past indicators of something about their their life history or their background. Yes.
>> You said there was the other ones you was their age, >> education. Am I right so far?
>> Yes. And then you talked about gang involvement in the prison system >> uh in the prison system but also gang membership in general. Uh so street gangs if that is uh present that again move increases the level of risk for violent acts.
>> And then you said conduct in under prior incarcerations.
>> Yeah. If somebody has been previously incarcerated and they've been violent in those sorts of settings that does raise the risk. Yes.
>> And then you also said something about their conduct while they've been in jail. Is that what you said? A lot of stuff.
>> Yeah. I apologize. That's the same thing my students say in my lectures. Uh uh the uh uh I'm I'm to I'm sorry. I've completely lost your statement there.
Could you repeat that?
>> I can't. You had indicated that somebody's conduct in an incarceration setting is something you listed as a factor. Yes. Okay. Um but are there different incarceration settings for different people who are incarcerated? Let me ask you this. Are there certain people that when they're incarcerated, let's say in a county jail or um even in prison that are not allowed other inmate access?
>> Yes.
>> And there are certain people that are in what we call SEG or segregated custody.
>> Yes.
>> And so if they're in that, you really can't rely on their behavior in say a jail setting, but they're not around anybody else.
>> Right. I mean that's a great point. The thing that oftentimes gets overlooked in trying to make predictions about what people are going to do in the future is to focus exclusively on them uh and their past and not to consider the situation that they're going to be in.
So being in the free world very different than being in general population, being in the general population very different than being in ADSG or administrative segregation. So the context very much matters in regards to trying to inform your decision about the likelihood that somebody may engage in violent behavior. uh and not all settings are equally comparable, which is why I was saying that simple history of violent acts in the community, not a good risk factor that somebody specifically will be violent in prison.
But the situation that they are housed under and living in uh and the sanctions that they may get for whatever misconduct they might engage in are all critical things that go into trying to figure out whether somebody will act out in the future or not. So you said something curious and I want to ask you this. You know to the statement that if someone is violent or extremely violent outside of prison, you said that's not generally a predictor of their violence when they're in prison, >> right? So somebody who is victimizing other people outside of prison, you're telling us that that's not predictive of them victimizing people in prison.
>> Essentially, yes. So your testimony is basically somebody who is extremely violent and has the capacity for extreme violence outside of prison walks through the prison doors and is now no longer violent. That's not my opinion. My opinion is is that knowing the offense that led to them being put into prison in and of itself doesn't give you a lot of useful information about what is the likelihood that this person moving forward now is somebody who will engage in ser >> I'm I'm sorry that you're in pain Tammy um you know sometimes you might just need to take a break if you're in pain um I know sometimes trying to really focus on something so if you need to take a break uh and you know listen to some music or something like that and calm down and come back another day. I I just don't want you to um continue hurting and trying to concentrate because I know how hard that is.
>> Forms of misconduct. Lots of violence that occurs in prison is by violence by individuals who are in for nonviolent crimes. People who committed violent crimes certainly can go into prison and engage in prison violence in that setting. But knowing that uh knowing the characteristics of the offense itself is not useful for trying to again figure out who is the person who's more or less at risk. That that was the point that I was making. I was not saying that if somebody who has a history of violence goes into prison then that means that they won't be violent.
>> It kind of sounds like we don't really know. Is that what you're saying?
What we do know about the base rates from the prison system itself about race >> uh rumier I think you are getting the underlying what he's saying without saying it. Um am I hearing this argument right? Are they saying that he should get life because he's too much of a coward to attack anyone that can fight back. I I do think that there is that underlying principle whether they're acknowledging it or not uh that bullies and monsters are afraid of other monsters.
But I I'm with we on that the the leaps and logics and jumps to conclusion are hurting my soul.
I never thought I was so deeply rigid like Sheldon before, but I'm understanding that I I do have parts of me that are are very rigid when it comes to if you are going to use science or or you know try try to use you know academia for something. I I don't like the misuse um to mislead, the use of science to mislead. And maybe that's because I always wanted to be a scientist, but they keep hiding math in science, so that was never going to really work out, but I just I I don't like the the very poor examples of science that have been used >> of serious violent behavior, uh, inmate homicides, uh, and generally rule infractions that people may engage in.
And as I said before, uh, there are increasing levels of rarity of those things. some types of misconduct are quite common and other forms as you get more severe become less common. Uh but yeah in but I do agree that in regards to a prediction about an individual people there is always going to be the potential for that prediction to be wrong either in the direction of claiming that somebody will be violent when they won't be in the future or claiming that somebody won't be violent when in fact they will be.
So what it seems like you're saying is that it's based upon the individual inmate. Is that what you're talking about here?
>> Uh, no. I'm saying that a lot of the risk factors that you would look at in doing a structured assessment are characteristics of the inmate. But as I was saying, the and as you pointed out, the the the circumstances in which somebody is housed even within a prison setting is going to have a significant impact on whether or not they are going to act out have the opportunity to act out violently and or do act out violently. So it's really not just the uh characteristics of the eventual uh individual but those are things that are important to consider.
So let's let me just go through this here in in prison and you've done a lot of studies on on Texas prison system is what I'm getting from. Is that right?
>> Yes.
>> And in the Texas prison system uh and I'm just going to talk about an an inmate in the Texas prison system here.
And their life in the Texas prison system regardless of where they are that life is not static. Is it? I I I'm not quite sure what you mean by static, but there are changes that can happen certainly while somebody is in prison.
Yes, >> let me ask. There are many things in the prison system that the inmate does not control. Yes, the inmate does not control where >> and I very much like the state bringing this out and it's incredibly subtle and if the jurors have been paying attention the letter that uh the defendant wrote that gives the great big excuses and it was all FedEx's fault indicates that he does not respond well. He in fact reacts incredibly violently to changes in routine. So the jury has to also be aware of that. Again, the jury has to also consider the safety of general population of the prison. The defense has now made that an issue. And the state is pointing out that by the defendant's own words written down, he reacts incredibly violently and unpredictably to changes in routine that he can't control.
Uh, this is in Texas they live. Correct. The MA does not control who their roommate is. Correct.
Uh, the MA does not control what type of housing they get. Correct. Um, potentially um, you know, there are differences, things that change. Texas offers a dorm setting, uh, as well as more of the traditional cell setting.
Correct. I believe so. Yes.
>> And all of those things change.
>> Uh, yes. Things do change, innovations, changes to programming, access, lots of things can change. Yes.
>> And you'll agree with me that prison in and of itself is a stressful environment. Is that right?
>> Yes. Yes. I I believe that is a very fair statement.
>> You seem to be really confident about that.
>> I I mean, I've been I've worked in county jails. I've been in prisons. I mean, it is definitely a high stress environment. There's lots of employee turnover, things of that nature. I was going to ask you that as far as the stressful environment, things like the guards change, other inmates change, wardens change, volunteers change.
>> Yes.
>> And any >> And I love the state for treating the jury like they're intelligent. The state is not going out of its way uh to say, "Hey, hey, remember remember this. this this links up to this in in the very pedantic and almost handholdy way that the defense is trying to and and it I I appreciate very much that the state is treating the jury like functional adults and that they are allowing they are not spelling out for the jury the links they are making but it is very clear if you've been paying attention to this trial that the potentiality according to The monster's own words is very high if he is put into a uncontrolled, not regimented uh not extremely isolated uh you know setting.
>> Inmate in and of themselves is is not in control of any of that. Correct. Okay.
And each individual inmate I think in in listening to you here comes with their own you talked about personality disorders. You talked about some other things, education, they come with their own set of who they are. Is that right?
>> Sure.
>> Yes.
>> Um and so if they have a personality disorder that comes with them.
>> Yes. If they have some form of other disorders or mental health conditions, that all comes with it.
>> Yes.
>> And so what I'm going to ask you here is this is um being that this environment is subject to change sometimes dramatically and being that it's stressful um that can have an effect on the particular inmate, would you agree with that?
>> Sure. Um and depending on what their conditions are, what they walk into prison with, that can affect how they react to certain situations. Would you agree with that?
>> Yes. So if an individual inmate um by virtue of whatever uh their background history, what have you, mental health, all that stuff, if their reaction to that change and stress in prison, if their reaction to that is with violence, you would consider that to be a problem, wouldn't you? Sure. and and if their reaction to that change in stress, their default is to react to violence, you would agree with Maine that they have more of a probability to commit violence in prison than other inmates.
>> Uh in general, that's not something that's been thoroughly researched, but issues of impulsivity and poor regulation uh is something that's been investigated and that does uh is something that could uh move the needle again in terms of the likelihood that somebody might act out violently. Not tons of research on that specifically, but yes.
>> But if you know on an individual inmate, you've been in the in the prison system, >> Yeah.
>> that their reaction to certain things is to react with violence, >> you'll agree that their probability to commit violence goes up.
>> Sure.
>> And individuals that are also in prison, whatever they they come with, whatever their package is, right? And I'm going to refer to that kind of their who they are. Sure.
>> Right. Um let me just ask you this. You talked about in infractions and violations. Is that the terms you used?
Yes. Disciplinary infractions or or violations of prison order, things of that nature. Yes.
>> Okay. And and I want to get this correct here. There are certain things that go with that. There would be things like if you possess something that you weren't supposed to have >> that. Yes. That's a type of infraction.
>> I'm just giving an example. I want to make sure we're clear on what you're talking about. Um obviously an infraction would be some form of assaulted behavior.
>> Yes.
>> Right. Um up into including murder, right? That would be a crime but also a disciplinary infraction.
>> Yes. Fairly severe.
Yes, I the special prosecution unit I'm sure would take over that case and and pursue criminal sanctions as opposed to the infractions which are usually adjudicated by a board of people in the prison in terms of meeting out punishment. So yes, I mean very obviously very extreme and you'll agree with me that um again I'm going to ask you kind of a similar question. If you have a particular inmate that their reaction to these types of infractions when they're found with something illegal or maybe found with drugs or um you know maybe doesn't have what did you say too many blankets in their uh cell.
>> Yeah. Just as an example of the many things you can get written up for.
>> Right. If their reaction we know their individual reaction to that particular thing is to react with violence. Right.
You would agree with me that that inmate would have a greater.
>> We are coming to the reason that they probably did not have this particular expert look into our very very unfortunate defendants uh actual history.
The state probably has um infraction history from our defendant and he probably has reacted violently since he's been in prison. Defense, really?
What are you trying to do here? You know, just when I think we couldn't like dislike our the defendant more.
I I dislike him more.
>> Probability of committing violence hidden in prison.
>> Yeah. If someone is reacting violently to what sounds like in your hypothetical a minor a minor uh transgression, uh then under other circumstances, that person's likelihood of acting out violently uh if that is their response could it certainly could be higher.
Again, you have to consider the circumstance and everything else that goes into it. Uh but yes, that potentially raises the risk of somebody acting out aggressively, >> right? Um and and we would know that about that individual inmate and that is their default. That's what I'm asking.
>> Well, I I don't know in your example if we can know that somebody's default to provocation is always to act violently.
Uh my experience is that that certainly can happen. uh most people even people with severe impulse control problems uh can you know control their behavior under some circumstances. In the example that you're giving, if somebody always lashes out violently to minor provocations, would they be more likely to lash out uh to uh more major, you know, things where their freedoms being impinched or something like that, then yes, uh I think that would be likely to be true. But I I believe that example is a fairly um uh extreme one. Yeah, you would think of all the puns, all the idioms, all the terms of phrases to use in a case where the potentiality for capital punishment would be administered by a needle, you would find another pun, you know, um that wouldn't change my perspective. That wouldn't change my analysis. Even analysis being, you know, one of those words that you could really screw up, but still you you would think that move the needle would not be your colloquialism unless you are having one of those Freudian slips.
I'll see myself out >> in regards to describing what you know is typical in terms of behavior patterns in prison.
Okay. So, I didn't do anything before it blipped that time. Mr. Mo is having me um try to remember what I clicked on um before it blips to give him more ideas of what's making it blippy. But I did not click on anything. So, let me write down in my notebook. I did not click.
But I am trying to be better at helping him understand what I'm doing. Um so he can better computer magic.
Sean, >> you anticipate much regret.
>> All right. So, real quick, the old study with 155 people. Those are all people convicted of capital murder.
>> Yes.
>> So those are all murder plus that something extra.
>> Yes.
>> So that is statistically that is a narrow it's statistically an unlikely charge to get prison.
>> Uh yes. I mean the the number of people in prison for murder is much much just murder relative to capital murder is much much higher. Uh and so capital murder cases are obviously a much smaller subset of those.
>> And but 100% of people you were looking at in that study fit that category. Yes.
Yeah. Everyone >> and there you said there was a followup on that over 10 years.
>> Uh that was on average the amount of time that there they had been tracked in terms of collecting their disciplinary records >> and you do not have to be on death row for PDCJ to put you in more restrictive housing. Correct. Uh that is my understanding of how the classification system works and uh I believe I I read a deposition or or a testimony by a TDCJ official in relation to this case earlier who talked about some of those same issues that you you can definitely change people's status to move to more or less restrictive environments and things of that nature. So that's consistent with what I thought to be true.
>> Okay. So I understand it's not your area of expertise, but it is your understanding that there are professionals at UBC who make those determinations about how someone should be housed.
>> Oh yes, absolutely. they that's their careers are are making those sorts of decisions to try to um you know engage in risk management and reduce the potential for giving somebody the opportunity to act out violently or have other adjustment problems.
>> Now you went into hypothetical about impulsivity with the state. Um but it seems to me like that would would that tend to fall into the category you're talking about about how you behaved previously when you were incarcerated and that sort of thing. Would that impulsivity in his extreme example have shown up under that category? I I'm not really sure. I mean, uh, my understanding was I was being asked if somebody always responds with violence to provocations, then in a prison setting, would you expect that person to have a higher likelihood to respond violently in that setting? Uh, which is again, I think a an extreme example that no one ever responds violently to provocations, even the people who have severe impulses provocators. But if somebody did, then I that would I think increase the risk that somebody might act out in an aggressive way if having a confrontation in a prison setting as well. So I I'm I'm not really sure if that answers the the question, but at the end of the day, we know there are lots of uh people in prison with impulse control problems who have a history of violent acts. Uh, and again, the uh I believe I said this earlier, if you're talking about doing a risk assessment uh and trying to decide who's likely to act out violently in the future, uh there's an old saying in the kind of in the people who work in this area, there's uh real estate agents say that the uh the the three most important words in selling a house are location, location, and location. Sorry, I'm holding up four fingers. uh uh and in the violence risk assessment world, one of the most uh the the the kind of thing that people tend to say the three most important words in violence risk assessment are base rate, base rate, and base rate. And the reason for that is knowing the rate of whatever it is you're trying to forecast in the future, whether that's suicide in the community or somebody having cancer and whether or not a diagnostic test can identify cancer, you need to know how common something is in the population, which is why I was talking about uh for the types of uh you know, acts that you might consider as being relevant to future danger. Those more extreme ones involving actual injury beyond needing first aid and and violence are ones that are very rare. And that is rare in a sample of people who have again very extensive histories of violence potentially in their background. So uh you know uh the the hypothetical person that was described is kind of extreme but I would >> as per my ruling as conductress of the petty petty express last week. Uh we will not be showing the douchebag's face. Uh, I don't know why Court TV has changed its mind and wants to assault us with the human garbage, but uh, we will be able to hear and then you will go back to monster-free viewing once they take their focus off of ick.
>> That may apply to a lot of people in prison. Uh, and again, you have to look at, well, what are the rates of actual violence in this population that you would expect to uh, to have a lot of those sorts of risk factors. Final question. Um, in the Texas prison system, they have mental health professionals who are doing assessments and working with correct.
>> Uh, yes.
>> Mr. No from the state.
>> Yes, sir.
>> Thank you.
>> Let's take our morning break. I need to visit with the lawyer for a few minutes.
So maybe a little bit more.
>> Oh, I hope we get it.
The judge has been really clear that he doesn't want any recording uh when the juryy's not there, but sometimes we do get in on this kind of what they're going to be arguing about.
Uh dog on it. I thought we were going to get the listen in, but we won't.
All right.
Oh, nope.
Okay. Now, I did not get this far uh this morning, so I am not sure who is on the stand.
Yes, your honor. Need to make sure my media is working with me instead of against me. Okay.
Good morning. How are you?
Better.
Would you please uh introduce yourself to the jury?
The Tanner's Meadow. I'm the defendant's meadow.
Uh, yes. This is intentionally blurred.
This is going to be Tanner's mother.
I have a couple caveats here. Normally, I still I steer very clear away from the defendant's family because I generally do not as a human judge people by other people's actions. I don't generally put the onus on the parents or anyone once a person is an adult.
All that being said, and I can understand that as a mother, this woman remembers her child as a baby, but I do not want to hear uh Dingleberry sobb story.
That being said, I am sure this woman has known nothing but scorn and disrespect, and I I know that it can't be easy knowing that her son has admitted to doing all of this. So, my heart goes out to her in that sense. But what I do not want to hear is my poor poor child, and won't you think of him? I think that will not go over. I I I think that will go over incredibly poorly. And this woman does deserve sympathy. I can't imagine what people think of her, her family in connection to Tanner. And that's wrong because again, the only one responsible for Tanner's action is Tanner.
But it is going to be very very grading to hear her her say some of the things that I think she's going to say. So do prepare yourself for that. Um, not that I think any of you will do this, but if you are a new traveler to my channel, do not reach out to this woman in real life. Do not contact anyone involved in this case. Do not insert yourself in any trial whatsoever. Do not contact anyone on the internet personally. Uh, it's dumb, it's stupid, and don't do it.
>> And going to ask you again. How are you doing?
>> I'm in pain. I'm in pain, but I'm working through it.
>> What kind of pain are you having today?
>> I've had two neck surgeries in the last year and the screws have fallen out and they're working their way down my back as we speak.
>> Miss Forum, where were you born?
>> May 3rd, 1971.
>> Oh, where were you born?
>> Of course. And where were you raised?
>> Fort Worth.
>> Did you uh move around a lot while you were in Fort Worth when you were a child?
>> Yeah.
>> How far did you go in school?
>> No, not far at all. I think ninth grade.
>> Did you like school?
>> No.
>> Why didn't you like it?
>> I had a lot of issues in school at home.
When you were in school, what kind of grades were you making?
>> I don't I don't remember that, Susan. I don't know.
>> Okay. Did you ever want to go to college?
>> Oh, yes, I did.
>> And Miss Warner, you're also very soft spoken. Um, so you can try and I know you're in some pain, but if you can keep your voice up for us and use the microphone as much as possible, that'll make it easier for the jury to hear what you have to say.
>> Is that better?
>> Okay.
the >> I apologize for your ear balls, y'all. I don't know if I'm going to make it through this.
Again, my my sympathy can go out to the young girl that had a chaotic childhood, but why didn't that young girl, knowing what that chaotic childhood did to her, not do everything to make sure her children didn't grow up in aa a a chaotic, you know, trash heap like what the defendant seems to be living in.
Again, I can I can extend sympathy, but what I c once once the once your son crossed that line to become a monster to victimize someone else, that's where my sympathy lies is with that someone else that your son victimized.
>> We were talking about you wanting to go to college. Did you ever make it to college?
>> I did when I got sober um in 2014.
I did. And how was that for you?
>> How in the hell did you get to college if you didn't graduate nth grade? I mean, and you didn't indicate by any other questioning that you had attained a GED or something equivalent.
Did you go to like I don't know that remember that art institute that where you used to draw the bunny and then they would let you in or was it a turtle?
>> Not again. I had an essay published um in blue. You had an essay published.
What kind of essay?
>> It was a simile metaphor as simile and metaphor essay.
>> Oh, what was it about?
>> Um, the oppression of Muslim women.
>> So, where was this essay published?
>> Oh, in TCC or it was TCJC at the time.
>> Is that Tarant County?
>> Wait a minute. So you wrote something on a widely documented basic precept, actual fundamental foundation in a monotheistic Abrahamic religion of it being a patriarchy.
That was your groundbreaking observation.
I am sorry. I am being unintentionally mean to this woman and I'm trying not to be.
Melissa, um, when you were a young girl, what did you want to do with your life?
Defense again. Do you understand the absolutely I I cannot explain to you how uh monumentally grading it is talking about whatever dreams that little defendant's mom lost when your son stole the life of a little girl. It's kind of hard to have sympathy for Tanner's mom's childhood when your son ripped a childhood from someone who did nothing wrong.
Oh, and Tammy, thank you. I've got to double check with Mr. Mo, but uh I will have to pick up the boys on Friday, but he is probably um he is going to be able to pick them up.
So, let me double check. But thank you for reminding me because this this woman has me so irritated. And and I'm y'all I am trying my bestest not to be not to be super duper mean to her, but she is testing.
I am sorry I cannot multitask anymore.
There's also something particularly grading and look I am not trying to to gather sympathy or anything but as a person who who most of my life and I'll let y'all in on a secret. My pain level functionally never goes below a five.
And I don't I don't tell people about it. I don't want people to know about it. It's just something I've gotten used to. But it it is exceptionally grading when when people try to use it as an excuse for everything because a lot of us deal with exceptional amounts of pain and you wouldn't know it.
>> I don't remember having during >> and Gail I I do get you. I think there are a lot of places where she went wrong, but ultimately at the end of the day, Tanner did what he did. Not his mom, not his upbringing, not the lead paint chips or the alcohol she took while uh you know, but dag on I didn't have a good childhood.
Your honor, >> I'm going to have Actually, Miss Warner, I'm going to hand you what has already been admitted into evidence as defense exhibits 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, and 62. And we're going to be using these throughout your testimony.
Okay.
>> Okay. Oh boy.
>> Yes, ma'am.
Again, I I really I really don't like the way the defense is playing this.
She's she's not here to say again, there is a way you could you could have her come on and say, "I know my son did a terrible thing. As a mother, I'm asking you to spare him.
not for him, but for me. And it would be a mother's plea. And I think that would still be considered in poor taste, but would be so much less offensive than what they're trying to do here. It wouldn't sit so badly. It wouldn't rub us so in the wrong way. Um, they're not trying I don't think they're trying to put the blame on her. Again, I believe this comes from a a school of thought in which um it's very much uh the tabla rasa people are a blank slate and it's all society, the environment's fault. Uh no one is inherently evil. No one inherently chooses evil. It's it's kind of um the school of thought that blames the war on poverty and and socioeconomic things. um kind of divorcing humans from their own agency. You are you know a product of not only your uh you know raising but the genetic history of you know whatever uh detriments might have happened.
Uh so it it's definitely uh just very very interesting um to see again these two very different world theories because I think that there can be a blend of both but to completely remove agency from a person and say it's all due to circumstances I think is a really odd way to look at it.
Um, and whether you realize it or not takes agency away from people because then it's never your it's never you choosing something. It's always someone else's fault. And I think that's really wrong.
Who is that in number 55? Our defense exit number 55.
>> That would be me.
>> How old were you there?
>> Maybe eight.
Nine.
>> Well, Miss Warner, I want to talk to you a little bit about your your upbringing.
Okay. Who was your mother?
>> Jackie Harrison.
>> What kind of mother was Jackie?
>> Excuse me.
>> What kind of mother was Jackie?
>> A very nurturing mother. Not very protective, but nurturing.
>> Did she ever leave you alone as a child?
>> Yeah.
>> How old were you when when she would leave you alone?
>> Not I mean, what do you mean alone?
>> Well, she left you at home by yourself.
How uh did she often leave you at home by yourself?
>> When she was working?
>> Yeah.
>> How old were you?
>> About six.
>> About six.
>> So, at the age of six, she would leave you at home alone.
Did you have any brothers or sisters there with you?
>> No, not at the time.
>> Did you have a a stepfather or any cousins or relatives to stay with you?
>> Um, I'm not sure about the age, but like um until my mom got married, I was alone and then I had two ships.
>> Um, we only I am not quite sure. I so I do tend to like um to go into kind of different uh philosophies of um of thought and kind of nature versus nurture, but I am in no way a scholar on this. So I don't know um if you do subscribe to sort of these theories how far back you think gener generational trauma is baked in. Um I I'm not learned enough in the subject to be able to tell you how how many if you do believe in this how much you go back. Um but I do think it's there is something very very grading about the fact that we are going into her her past which does sound if I could say incredibly incredibly chaotic and tragic for any child to be in that sort of situation.
So, I'm not negating that. But there is something so incredibly grading about talking about this woman's trials and tribulations when on my screen I am looking at a little girl who never even got to have trials or tribulations. And I don't know if the defense understands how poorly this is this could go over because I in no way think that everyone um is is going to think like me and perceive like me that this is terrible. But I do feel like enough people are going to be very very turned off by this argument. I could be wrong.
Uh brothers and sisters, >> we have 11.
Okay, we're back online now. Sorry.
Okay. So, um, Miss Warner, we were talking about your your mother. You even had said that she was nurturing, but not always. Do you feel that that your mother met all of your emotional needs as a child?
>> I'll let her I'll let her. Go ahead.
>> And I'll repeat the question. Do you feel that your mother, Jackie, met all your emotional needs?
>> She tried. She's very young. She tried.
I don't think I did. No, I don't think they were. She turned 16 the day after she had me.
Yeah, >> of a child having a child.
>> Okay. Again, so how many how many great how many people here their great great grandma was, you know, 16, 15, 17, 19, you know, ages that would be considered farical, you know, at this time. I mean, yes, I am not arguing that that is not incredibly young, but what time period?
And again, how many generations are we going to go back to blame what the Israelites in the desert? I mean, where where does the buck stop for this particular crime? Adam and Eve, the snake, the apple.
>> I want to talk to you a little bit about your father. Um, did your mother and father remain married after having you?
>> No, ma'am. They didn't.
>> And how old were you when they divorced?
>> One year old.
>> At some point, did your mother remarry?
>> Yes.
>> And how old were you when they remarried?
>> Five or six.
>> Did you like your stepfather?
>> No. Or not?
Okay.
>> Did your stepfather abuse him?
>> Yes.
>> How did he abuse you?
First time he used me, they weren't they weren't even married.
That was her when he tried to have sex with me.
>> And this was before that you got married.
>> Yes, ma'am.
>> Did you tell anyone?
>> If it's a travesty again, defense, I don't understand what you're trying the point you're trying to make. You are making the point that this assault on her innocence destroyed the rest of her life and your defendant did the same thing and then took a life.
There are so many pitfalls with this this approach. Again, I I am terribly sorry and it it was terrible what happened to you, but this is not the time.
Who did you tell?
>> My mother.
>> Even though you had told your mother that the man she was with at the time had abused you, did she break up with him?
>> No. No, she didn't believe me.
>> She didn't believe you. I think he I think he told her uh because he had put something on a rag to let me pass out and uh she asked him what that smell was and I think he said it's perfume or he spilled perfume on me and he had to clean it up or something. I don't know what he said.
She didn't know me.
>> And even though he abused you, did they still get married?
>> Yes, ma'am. After they married, did the abuse stop? No.
>> No.
Was it was the abuse constant through the marriage or was it at different times?
>> It was not constant.
I think he felt lucky that I didn't die any quicker. Oh, >> so during the time that your stepfather was abusing you, did you tell your mother about it?
>> Yeah. Yeah. I used to I used to put a I used to put like a a he was coming other than that. Please stop.
Did that person stop? No.
At any point were you able to report this abuse to anyone?
>> Or let me rephrase that to anyone who believed.
>> Well, when I was 14, they sent me to rehab cuz I was and uh came out.
When you got out of rehab, were there any conditions placed upon your household for your for your release?
>> Um, yeah. My mom had to leave Washington. My mom had to leave my perpetrator.
>> And that was your stepfather?
>> Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am.
>> You had mentioned that you had gone to rehab because you were smoking weed. Why were you smoking weed at the time?
I'm not sure. I guess it was helping me.
>> Helping you what?
>> I self-medicate. I found I found found a way to escape my own head.
>> And when you say you found a way to escape your own head, was that because of the abuse?
>> Yes.
>> You were sent to when you were 14. How old were you when you first started smoking marijuana?
I guess about 14.
>> Were you using any other kind of drugs?
>> No, not a ton.
>> You had mentioned that you had gone to rehab. While you were in the rehab, did you have any counseling related to the sexual abuse?
>> Yes.
>> Did that help?
>> I don't remember. Probably not.
>> And I want to fast forward a little bit.
And you had mentioned that you had dropped out of school. How old or that you didn't finish school? How old were you when you dropped out?
>> That was a long way ago. I've never I just don't So I usually >> And Dark Lotus, you make a really, really good point because is the defendant going to take this same act of bravery and really put all of it on the line? really go into every nook and cranny because again this this is tragic to hear what this woman went through and I'm guessing we are we are going through this to understand why she abused alcohol while she was pregnant because um it does make more sense now that I remember that fetal alcohol syndrome is one of the uh diagnoses that Tanner does have medically. Um and he was diagnosed prior to um this incident. Uh so this is a long-standing diagnosis and I guess we do have to go into this to um and and maybe a little bit of this to humanize the mother uh for drinking while she was pregnant would have been acceptable. I think, but this really is tonally very off for me and it feels incredibly disingenuous um as far as the way they're using her story.
Again, that's my opinion. This is, as I will say, incredibly emotional testimony if you have a history um with any of these sort of triggers. So, do still be kind to yourself. We can have a puppy and kitten break. And I am trying to be as kind as I can, but it it still is, I think, very gling. Um the the use of this story in relation to uh what is what is being brought forward.
>> That's okay. Um Were you still a teenager?
>> Yes.
>> Without saying what your mother told you, >> how did she feel about you dropping out of school?
>> I don't remember her saying anything.
Well, after you dropped out, how did you want to live?
>> Jack in the Box at first and then uh Wendy's and then uh Sbads and illusions.
>> What is Sad?
>> It's a club.
>> Oh, what kind of club is that?
>> The mail compos.
So after you dropped out of school, did you start tripping?
>> Yeah.
>> How'd you feel about that?
Um what I find and again this might be my more analytical mind. I find it very interesting that uh when the defendant started or started to allegedly offend with the two survivors, he found women that very much fit the pattern of his mother um as a vulnerable uh unsupervised and somewhat neglected uh with a chaotic background. Um, so I don't believe that the state is going to cross this woman. Again, there really is no there is no upside to trying to ask her questions. It would be have to be very delicate and I don't know what you would get. So, um, the defense chose not to cross-examine the parents and I I would assume the state will probably follow suit.
It seemed to fit in with my life pretty much, you know.
>> I'm sorry.
>> It seemed to fit in with my life. You know, that's what I think when you're abused at such a young age, it comes a self-concept. You know, this is what I'm here for.
I wish I hadn't. I really wish I hadn't, but I did.
>> Now, did your mother ever discourage you from working in a spare pod?
No, I don't remember that either.
She's not a bad mother. She's I'm not I don't want anything bad about my mom.
>> Did um So, how long did you work in the surf club?
>> About 12 years till I turned 30.
>> So, if it was 12 years when you turned 30, you were about 17 or 18 when you started? Yes, ma'am.
I am not quite sure. I think he might have a stepbrother. I don't believe he has any full-blooded siblings. I believe he might have a stepbrother or a half brother.
>> When you first started working in the clubs, was it easy for you to go up on that stage?
>> Oh, no. No.
What did you do to get the courage to to go up there?
>> Drink.
>> Drink heavily.
>> What did you drink?
>> Jack and Coke mostly.
>> At any time did you have to use drugs in order to go up on a stage?
>> Yes.
>> What kind of drugs did you use during that period?
>> Meth.
>> Meth. Mhm.
>> About how old do you remember you when you start?
>> I don't know.
>> At some point did you start using even heavier drugs than that?
>> Heavier than crystal.
I I failed um straight pharmacology, but I call me Apana, but I was under the impression that the crystal was kind of heavy, like on the heavier elements side.
I didn't know it was a gateway.
I legitimately I'm not trying to be a smartass. I know my tone of voice always comes out that I am being a smartass, but honest to goodness, I was today years old when I real when I heard that the defense considers it a recreational drug.
>> Very nicely.
>> Yes.
>> What drugs did you start using?
>> Uh with this just later on?
>> Yes.
>> I mean, I've done everything. I mean, heroin.
>> Is that your drug of choice? Yes.
>> How long have you been using heroin?
>> It was uh about 25 years.
>> When you first started using heroin, how did you use it? I did. Was it snorted?
Was it >> Yeah.
>> Yes. Little pill.
>> I'm sorry.
>> The little pill snorted.
>> And what did you ever start shooting heroin?
>> Yes.
>> When you started using heroin, >> how did that make you feel when you took it?
>> A lot better.
Why do you say that?
>> Cuz I have I have a movie that plays in my head every day. Every day without without. And it gets really good.
>> Is your fine fine? The movie that you said that is playing in your head, what kind of movie is it? Is it a comedy, a romance, a horror film? What kind of movie is it?
Damn defense ser again I know where she's going with this but you even had to put romance comedy you could have asked the question thusly could you please describe to me the movie that plays in your head again if you had any real actual you know zeal or or or or you were really married to this argument down to your soul, you wouldn't treat it as a joke. And when you put those when you ask a question that way, it it sounds incredibly glib.
>> It's my past. It's my abuse. It It plays in my head every day.
>> Does heroin take that away?
>> Yes, it does.
>> Is that why you still use it?
>> I'm on methodone now.
>> You're on methodone now?
>> Yeah.
Miss Horn, I want to talk to you a little bit about your own personal mental health struggles. Okay.
>> Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental illness, >> bipolar disorder, and schizoeffective?
>> Have you ever been diagnosed with PTSD?
>> Yes.
>> Have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD?
>> No.
>> When did you start having mental health issues?
I wasn't even aware I had them until I they told me I did.
>> Okay, I am asking a legitimate question if anyone is a mental health professional. Um I I am not trying to be a smartass, but how could they diagnose you when you are chronically taking chemical stimulants or and uppers and downers? How can they get a baseline on on your mental health when you are chronically either going through addiction or withdrawal?
A and I'm not trying to be a a jerk, but it would seem impossible if if you are constantly chemically enhanced to get a clear diagnosis. And it doesn't sound like she's had long periods of sobriety with interspersed um you know use. It sounds like it's been just chronic daily almost use.
>> Who was they?
>> The doctors.
>> Why did you go see doctors?
>> Because I was um at my which end I wanted to die.
>> Why did you want to die?
I can't do nothing right.
>> I just wonder when you went to see the doctors and they diagnosed you with bipolar, were you also prescribed any medications?
>> Of course.
>> Did they help?
>> Um, they seem to for a while, but I don't believe the medicine like that.
>> Did the medication Ma'am, I am you are ma'am. I am trying to be as kind as as my mouth will allow me to be.
But you don't believe in western medicine, but you're okay with methadone.
You don't believe in medication like that, but you're currently taking methadone.
The defense is trying to kill all of our functional brain cells.
You would think it would be against a strategy to kill off the frontal lobe of all of the jurors when that's the one capable for reason thought and not, you know, snap judgments based on emotion.
Well, let me ask it this way. For you and in your opinion, which helped you more, the medications that the doctors prescribed or the drugs that you were taking?
>> I'm not sure. I didn't really give the uh demi drugs a try a chance, you know.
I uh >> Dear Lord, it's that's a that's a softball question. She's she's not even getting a bunt.
Defense say thank you. You've done enough. Um thank you. You're welcome. We passed the witness.
I really didn't I didn't I didn't give it a chance.
>> Well, Miss Warner, you had stated that you felt that you were at your your wits end, that you couldn't do anything, right?
Did you ever attempt to take your own life?
>> Yes.
>> How did you do that?
>> With heroin.
>> Did you have Was it an intentional overdose?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
And what happened after you had this overdose?
>> They uh >> I don't know. I was out, but I woke up in the hospital and uh left.
>> Do you recall how old you were at the time?
>> No, ma'am. I do not. I don't remember.
I'm really terrible at with dates and ages. Sorry. Was it before or after Tana was born?
>> After.
>> Let's talk about Tanner for a moment.
Okay.
>> Sure.
>> Um Tanner's your son. Is that right?
>> Yes.
>> Um who is this father?
>> Terry. Terry her.
>> Was Terry Horner your husband as well?
>> Yes, he was.
>> Now, Miss Horner, how did the how did you two meet?
in the bar. In the bar I was working at, uh, Sund at the time. Mhm.
How do you recall how old you were?
>> 17.
>> Do you recall how old he was?
>> 29.
>> Tell the jury about the night that you and Terry met. What was that like?
defense. I don't know where you're trying to go with this other than making me need mental bleach because I have a very active mental imagination. I can paint universes with my mind and I really do not need my brain attempting to imagine against my will the conception of the defendant.
I am going to turn into Lewis Black.
also a great comedian. If you feel the need to uh you know scream at the vagaries and insanities of the universe, Lewis Black is a great uh comedian. Very if you are into crotchy old man comedy uh you know Allah uh George Carlin Lewis Black is a great one. Um, but you are gonna make me start doing this.
Um, the first night we met, he liked me here that night. Did he ever hit you?
>> Yes, he did.
Tell me about that. What happened?
>> Um, well, he asked me to go back to his room and do a line and I said, "Okay."
And I went and he he's trying to fill me up. I said, "No." And he knocked me out and made me do it all he wanted.
>> Now, in spite of the beating and the rape, did you still continue to see Terry?
>> Yes, I did. I married.
So even though he beat you and raped you the first night that y'all met, you still fell in love with him.
>> It wasn't.
>> Yeah, I married you.
>> Defense again. How dare you fell in love.
There are And look, I'm not the word police. I'm not the tone police. But how about you have respect for the situations you are shamelessly exploiting? This woman is talking about about really really dark stuff. How about instead of saying you loved him so you did marry him uh did you how would you classify that relationship? Instead of throwing the L word out there, you could allow this woman to take back some of her own power and classify the relationship using her own words. As as we have heard from this woman on the stand, regardless of her relation to the defendant right now, at this point, this woman on the stand has detailed a life where all of her agency was taken from her. The least you could do is allow her the agency to label her relationship the way she feels fit.
Again, you are shamelessly taking this woman's trauma and trying to use it for your for your defendant. The least you could do is respect the trauma you're exploiting. Damn, I'm taking a puppy kitten break.
Google wasn't having it either. Puppy kitten break.
World feels like a dumpster dive and humans forget how to thrive. Take a break. Just you and me with a puppy and kitten. Wild and free. Pause and purse.
Let's drift away to a land where tails wagon play. No more noise, just gentle music in our furryle cruise.
I'm sorry y'all, but there there are some lines you shouldn't cross. And there is a way to do this in a way that is is is uh is not so offensive. Again, it's very grotesque how they're using this woman's trauma and then to not even respect it enough to ask these glib sort of questions and and it only takes a moment to think of. Again, I never claim to be the smartest person in the world, but if I can in a moment reward a question in a way that doesn't sound so inherently gross, my opinion, this is going to come off as incredibly callous and and hamfisted and uncou.
There is a way you could have done this so much more elegantly and respectfully.
Because at the end of the day, this is about that little girl. And you could show some respect. If you don't at least if you don't respect the criminal justice system and the punishments it puts forward, you could at least respect that the criminal justice system is what it is and ask and present your case in a way that isn't so offensive in my opinion.
>> Well, what do you say?
It goes back to the what I thought I was about.
>> Well, how old were you when you married Terry Horn?
>> 19.
>> Now, you told us that he had abused you before you got married. Did that abuse stop once you became his wife?
>> It it stopped after the first. I I mean, he never really he never hit me again until when I decided to leave him.
When you and Terry were married, did um did you ever do drugs together?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> At what time?
>> Myth.
>> And how often would they do drugs?
>> Um not much. Not to me. We got to pay.
>> Again, what's not much to an addict? and and I'm I'm it has taken me a long time to understand the other side of addiction having lost my first husband.
So I I extend grace and as much understanding as I humanly can on this earth with my history.
But what the hell is is not often to a person that has admitted to continuous use up until this day except that it's a controlled substance controlled by a doctor. Now I mean also where the hell is children's services?
Oh, well, um, RJ NLC, it's, um, it's something I walked through, and I'm not going to say that it was easy or anything like that. Um, but it has given me, I will I will admit to having a very big grudge and axe to grind with addicts for a long time. I did not have any grace. Um, I figured, you chose this, you chose this. Um, and it really took not having control of my body to kind of gain some insight into dealing with something that you have little ostensive control over.
So my saving grace is that I may be a stubborn ass, but when exposed to uh you know information that that changes my perspective, I am open to my perspective changing.
Um I This is just gross.
>> Did you and Terry ever separate?
Um, once.
>> Did you ever divorce?
>> Once.
>> Well, did you ever are you officially divorced from him?
>> Yes. No. No. No.
>> Are you still married to Terry Warner?
>> Yes, I am. He's He's deceased.
>> I was just about to ask.
>> Actually, her story might very much mirror my own cuz I actually understand exactly what the hell she's saying. I'll explain in a minute. the swingers. Huh?
>> Were what happened to Terry?
>> He he got killed by a lady on a motorcycle.
>> When did that happen?
>> Two years ago.
>> Did that happen while Tana was still in jail?
>> Yes.
>> I want to talk to you a little bit about your life before Terry and before your pregnancy with Tanner. Had you been pregnant before your pregnancy with Tanner? Mm-m.
>> Had you ever been pregnant? That was kind of your first pregnancy.
>> No, he wasn't.
>> How many times before had you been pregnant?
>> Is there anything I refuse to answer?
>> You want to rephrase?
We're pleading the fifth and and it is her story to tell and I'm I just talked about agency. So, if this woman doesn't want to talk about this and the way the defense is using her, albeit probably with her full cooperation, it's still ick. And I don't know what this is supposed to elicit other than a big a big case of ick.
And and that's regardless of of your idea of, you know, politically where you line up on the life conception question.
It It's just a big old pile of egg.
I have no idea who that is. Um, Dark Lotus, I'm I'm with you. I I don't like this at all. I I really don't.
And um strange little badger catching up. I confess I skipped the majority of the expert uh useless witness and I've just started on the mom. Well, strange badger, buckle in cuz I don't know where the hell we're going on this roller coaster. Legitimately, I I'm I'm somewhat flabbergasted as to where the defense is going. And I find it even ickier that it's being done by a woman.
Not that I think that like having a uterus inherently makes you girly cuz I I'm like recent to the whole makeup wig girl thing beyond like theater. But really like he didn't run any of these questions by anyone else like hey do you think tonally this is going to work?
>> Thank you.
Let's talk about your pregnancy with Tanner. Okay.
>> Okay. Thank you.
>> When you became pregnant with Tanner, were you still dancing?
>> Yes, I was.
>> And when you became pregnant with Tanner, were you still drinking alcohol >> till I found out I was pregnant?
>> Okay. Again, I I have visited um none dancing establishment of the nude variety.
Again, I'm I'm not trying to be a jackass, but do they still allow dancing when you're pregnant? Is that an OSHA thing?
Where are we going with this?
>> That time, by that time, I I was already like 8 and 1/2 weeks.
>> So, you didn't find out you were pregnant until about 8 and 1/2 weeks in?
>> Yes, ma'am. And during that eight and a half weeks, you drank on a regular basis.
>> Yes, I was.
>> How often would you drink?
>> I drink pretty heavily. Enough to do cerosis.
>> You have currently have cerosis?
>> Yes, I do.
>> Once you learned that you were pregnant, did you stop drinking?
>> Yes.
>> And why did you stop drinking when you found out?
>> Cuz I wanted my baby to be healthy.
before learning you were pregnant to the >> and Samantha Sho or Samantha uh shoe lover sorry I don't know why my dyslexia was like wait where are those letters going um I I legitimately did not know that you learn something new every day that's interesting I mean I guess it hey different things for different people I'm wondering Wondering if I can make a maternity pole dancing video for dual purposes.
Would that be entrepreneurial or exploitative?
Eh, >> smoke cigarettes?
>> Yes.
>> After you discovered you were pregnant with Tanner, did you stop smoking cigarettes?
>> No.
>> What about marijuana? Did you continue to smoke marijuana throughout your pregnancy? You know, I did a little bit because I was throwing up every day and it helped.
>> It helped with morning.
>> It really did. And I hate to say that, but I did.
>> Before learning that, >> okay, be by this logic, everyone who might have possibly been conceived anywhere around Woodstock.
Um, we should have had just a a boon of serial unalivers, just a mass of of chaos.
I For the love of Cheetos, stop using this woman. It's It's It's going You were pregnant with Tanner. Did you Did you continue to use other drugs?
>> No.
So, at the time that you found out you were pregnant, you were just uh smoking marijuana and drinking.
>> Oh, no. Before Before I found out I was pregnant, I was >> So, during that about 8 to 9 week period?
>> Yeah, I was doing everything.
>> And what do you mean by everything?
>> I mean, anything I get my hands on.
I mean, I I didn't go out looking for it, but it was always coming into the club. And um it's not a good lifestyle. It It's not.
But I did try to stop whenever I found out I was pregnant.
>> Once you found out that you were pregnant with Tanner, did you continue to work with the club?
>> I mean, just what a couple of weeks.
>> And I totally forgot to ask, but is Tanner your firstborn?
>> Yes.
>> Do you have any other children?
>> Yes.
>> When was that child born? Not his birthday, but how long after Tanner was your second child?
>> 10 years.
>> So they're 10 years apart.
>> All right. So, let's talk about the birth of Tanner. Were you able to carry him to term?
>> Past term.
>> Past term. How late was he?
>> Um, it's like he was 3 weeks and he and we still had to use ptoin cuz >> Okay. Now, I I will say that there might be one thing that I'm an expertologist in and uh that would be child birth. And let me tell you something, they would not let her go 3 weeks past due, especially with um her history of early drug use. And my guess is that um even if she was being totally honest with going cold turkey when she found out she was pregnant, she would still have some physical indicators of withdrawal and things like that. My guess is she did not go cold turkey. So, not as a shaming thing, but legitimately uh she would not have if she were under the care of and this is where maybe she was able to go 3 weeks overdue by her count.
uh if she did not have or maintain routine prenatal care, it is very possible that by her count she was 3 weeks overdue and and he wasn't coming out. He set up shop.
>> How long were you the night that he was born?
>> Um wow. I think it was a little 3 weeks and then um no it was difficult pregnancy >> when you were in labor for 3 weeks.
Again, I don't believe that the jury is going to find her to be a reliable narrator on on like the facts of the matter. I'm guessing if anything, the jury will use her as maybe kind of a a guide map to where things may have gone astray.
The uh when he actually decided to be born, was there any complications during that period? Well, yeah, he he had gotten so big. I mean, I had a long torso, so I think that's why he had a lot of green to grow. But he had gotten so big that he he ruptured, not ruptured, but tore a little uh leak in my sack. So, I was leaking water. I went to the hospital and they sent me home. We'll come back and whenever. So, then they had to keep him for 2 days because the infection that he said he probably had because of that, he he had a hard time coming out. So they put the string on his head to pull him out. Not force. It was like a >> like a suction cup.
>> Yeah.
>> A vacuum extractor. And that's a more gentle um less invasive way to facilitate a natural birth if the labor has stalled. Um there is some contra controversy on using them. Personally, if it helps a mom deliver naturally and it's the mom's choice and the doctor's choice, I would like us to stop, you know, showering new moms with opinions, you know, let's let's just help them be new moms. I will get off my soap box >> kind of like like that.
>> Mhm.
>> I am not sure. Right. So, after Tanner was born and he's cleaned up, he's wrapped up in his blanket and put in your arms, what were your first thoughts when you looked down into his face?
>> He looks like a dad. Yeah.
>> Were you happy to be a mom?
>> Yeah. I was happy to have my kids.
>> And why were you happy so happy to be a mother?
It just changed everything from wasn't about just me anymore.
>> Ma'am, I have tried to extend every grace to you, but you are rubbing on the one nerve that is still active, wounded, and continues to hurt.
Look, I can say this without hesitation that I have forgiven my first husband for choosing drugs over me and our marriage.
I understand that he was struggling with something that I can't comprehend.
But what I still struggle like hell with is that every day he chose something else over our children.
So you are not a mom like I'm a mom. So please don't confuse the two of us because I I have extended you grace. I have extended you kindness. But don't say it changed everything in your life because it didn't.
>> Where were you living at the time that Tanner was born?
>> My settlement.
>> Were you living with Terry? Were you living with your mother? How was Who were you living with?
>> With Terry in my settlement.
>> How long after you came home from the hospital with Terry that Well, let me ask it this way. Did uh did he stay around?
>> Did stay around?
>> Yeah, he did.
>> And how long?
>> I'm sorry.
>> I couldn't get him to leave and get a job with me.
>> Um at some point though, you two separated and broke up. How long after Tanner had been born did y'all break up?
>> Two years. Two years.
>> You had mentioned before you told Jerry that.
>> And uh thank you Squab Bob for gifting a membership over on Rumble. And Deb M22, you got that membership. So congrats.
Before you had found out that you were pregnant, you were doing drugs, but then had quit the drugs. When you found out you were pregnant, after Tanner was born, were you able to stay sober?
>> I've never been able to stay sober. I mean, it's just the truth.
>> Oh, how old is Tanner when he started using again?
>> Um, yes, Tammy. I'm wearing a lip stain and then um so I typically on days I have learned on days that I'm going to be talking a lot I'll use a stain or um I found stains work better and then I'll use a really hydrating um lip balm.
I am learning these girl things as I go along. It might not work for you. Um, but I find it doesn't bleed. Uh, and you know, but it helps. Um, it just helps me not uh have really dry lips. And thank you for gifting another membership uh, Squaba Bob.
And I believe that went to Slidey Pie.
This is embarrassing. It probably is.
I'm not sorry.
Probably that too.
>> She's she's absolutely not sorry. She's exploiting you, ma'am. And it's it's painful to watch because your your willingness to help comes from, I think, a genuine place of maternal love, however misguided that is. The defense is is is is so callous, is so calculated. It's so gross. Yours, at least isn't calculated. It it's just misguided a bit.
And it's gross to see your genuiness used so callously. It really is.
What made you go back to using?
>> I don't know.
>> When you went back, did you were you using the same kind of drugs, the heroin and the meth?
>> I hadn't started heroin.
>> You had So, was it just the meth and the the marijuana and the drinking?
>> Yes. Okay.
>> Did your drug use increase over time?
>> Yes. Okay.
>> Were you able to keep a job?
>> No.
>> And do you think that was because of the drugs?
>> Yes.
>> Had you ever lost a job because of your drug use?
>> No.
>> I just I could never keep a job.
I think my bipolar had a lot to do with it.
I don't know.
>> Bipolar, not not the street pharmaceuticals or the drinking.
Definitely mental health. Do you see how how there might become a stigma on mental health if you refuse to take ownership of your own actions and use mental health as an excuse? Do you see how how people could start become cynical about mental health in general?
Do you see how this this is the exact behavior that creates stigma about mental health? Because I guarantee there are people that grew up with the same dagon childhood that you did, ma'am. and and and the same mental health issues that you did and they didn't turn to drugs.
So, I'm sorry, but I this woman is like trying to pick on my very nerves and and and it leads to a real problem where mental health is seen as a cynical, callous way to absolve yourself of responsibility.
because people use it like this. There's an obvious thing, street pharmaceuticals, nah, bipolar.
And it's that cynical use by defense attorneys like this that go to again compassion fatigue and and you know the stigma of mental health in my personal opinion.
Well, I can't >> with um you had mentioned that you had gone back to using drugs when Tam was 2 years old.
Do you know if he ever saw you using drugs?
>> Yeah, he did.
>> Tell me about that.
>> It was sad.
I nodded out one time on the toilet and I was just like I wouldn't use the bathroom with and I was just I had done what I was doing and I just wanted out and Tanner came in. He was just a little guy and um he thought I was dead. He went in there and he told mom's dead and um how you feel >> terrible.
It's terrible.
>> Not enough to stop. spare me.
>> Do you think your drug use at that time affected your ability to be a mother to Tanner?
>> The Yeah, there were several times when I knew I was out of control.
>> Had you ever been arrested because of your drug use?
>> Yes.
>> What um were you arrested for?
>> Um drugs, prostitution, just about no violent crimes. I've never victimized anybody.
>> You mentioned that you were arrested for ma'am, these are not victimless crimes. You again didn't raise your son who went on to victimize someone else. And while I don't blame a mother for all the things, you again mirrored the chaotic childhood that you want to have us to have sympathy for in your own son who went on to do a monstrous act.
I you make it very difficult to simultaneously have sympathy for that chaotic childhood you had and all of this. It's just this was done so clumsily and I understand that it comes from I am giving the benefit of the doubt a good place in this woman.
She is incredibly damaged and she is being exploited and I don't like this.
This minimizing is again how things get stigmatized because there it's always someone else's fault. It's always a victimless crime and it's you, me, and the middleman that have to pay for the shoplifting and all these victimless crimes.
So, I'm getting a little bit tired of being told that things are victimless when I'm paying the price for them.
>> Prostitution.
>> How many times have you been arrested for that?
>> I don't remember. Quite a few.
>> Did you ever go to prison behind any of the the drug charges?
>> Yes, I did.
>> Before going to prison, were you offered the ability to do any sort of rehab?
>> Yeah. Judge uh I went to AEL and uh Judge Carr um put me in Greenlight Ministries. I piloted that program actually.
>> I'm sorry.
>> I piloted that program. It was for women with with mental health issues that that want to get out of that way of life.
>> So tell me more about that. Um what was Ring Night about? What was it like? It It gave you a foothold that tried to get you started on a on a clean life. It was really a good program.
>> Did you complete program?
>> No, I've done that again and I quit.
>> While you read the program, were was that an inpatient or an outpatient?
>> It was It was residential.
>> Mhm.
>> Were you able to have Taylor there with you?
>> Yes. Well, he visited there.
>> Where was he living when you were at Greenlight Ministries?
>> In Lake Worth Black.
>> And who was he living with? my mom.
>> Were there any other rehab facilities that you went to?
>> Nexus, First Choice. I went to all of them.
>> So, let's talk about First Choice. When you were with uh at First Choice, was that a residential program as well?
>> Yes, ma'am.
>> Were you able to bring Tanner with you?
>> Yes, ma'am.
>> At this time, was your other child born?
>> Um, the first time he wasn't. The second time he was.
I want to show you what has been admitted as it doesn't exhibit 56.
>> Where was this taken?
>> That nexus.
>> That's the nexus. And who is all who who are the people in the photo? Um me standing up, my grand my grandmother Mary sitting down on the left and Tanner is between me and my mother.
>> And so that's your mother on the right.
>> Right, Jackie?
>> Miss, were you ever able to in spite of all the times that you went to rehab, were you ever able to stay at time? Yeah.
I always wanted to. I had to want to, but what do you >> And thank you for the gifted membership, squab. Bob, and I forgot to do the post-it note. I was so I was so um well almost paralyzed by stupid um that I I no longer computed. So, I need to get those Rumble ones. And then this one. And that went to Jamie 1983.
Congratulations. Welcome to the Church of Mo. And welcome over on Rumble, Slidey Pie. And oh, for the love of Cheetos, Deb uh M22. I was like, I know I can remember this if I just think.
Definitely gonna have to get a Sharpie.
But Sharpies um are kind of verbolton in my house because a certain not to be named youngest most feral may have a poor history. In fact, may have a futuristic um diagnostic of well indicated by past behavior with Sharpies that we can't have them in the house.
I I don't even think they need to go that far. I think they just need to play him yelling at people to get out of his way because he has to deliver packages on that day he went to look and survey his crime.
I think because again he wasn't showing anxiety. He wasn't so panicked. He wasn't so disorientated by the evil he'd done or, you know, in a fugue state that he didn't know where he was. No, he was relishing the fact of the chaos and then pissed off that the good people outnumber the monster, I guess, and that he was inconvenienced by the amount of people going to look for a little girl.
That's what I would play if I were the state. That way, we don't have to traumatize the jury again. I don't think you need to use it like that. I think that just that snapshot of him being a total and utter [ __ ] because he had utter control. He was not worried. He was not anxious. He was not in fear. No, he was enjoying himself.
And he was irritated. And again, I think that's all you need from being successful at any point.
I'm hardheaded and I am and I don't take suggestions like I should. I I need to go get some help and and take a pill that they want me to take, but I have have a hard time doing that. Yeah.
>> When you're at these rehab facilities, you have said that Tanner stayed with your mother.
similar sometimes even with me.
>> How was your mom as a grandmother?
>> I I do think you guys make a fair point, Dark Lotus. That would go hard in the paint, but I also worry about the jurors. Look, I just read the transcript of what was private for the jury, and it turned my stomach.
I I would hope that we wouldn't need to to show that again because I don't want Athena to be remembered like that. But I do understand the point you're making and I don't disagree. I just I have a different perspective and that's what I love about chat. We can have different perspectives. We can say, "Hey, that's a good point. I just I tend to disagree." And that's what I like about court cases, but it's also monumentally frustrating sometimes because it is um it is plain to see when someone is inauthentic in the way that they are presenting an argument and you can tell that the defense is um uh we only I saw it on X I believe. I I'll try to find it. I just looked at it and then I didn't book mark it or anything. Um, so I believe if you type it in, you'll probably find it, but if I can find it, I'll send you a link. I just didn't save it. Um, where was I?
It's just this has all been a load of ick today. Defense, way to go. I'm being sarcastic.
>> You got to ask the candidate.
Well, from what you could see, was she a good grandma?
>> Yes.
>> She loved Tanner.
>> She's full of room. I mean, both of them were just full rotten.
>> And even though you were in these rehab facilities, did you still try to be present as a as a parent in Tanner's life?
>> Absolutely.
>> How did you do that?
Um, I mean, if I wasn't there, you know, I always made sure that they had insurance and, you know, um, had stuff. I always wanted them to be taken care of cuz, you know, I never I wasn't taken care of as a child very well and always where I wasn't, I always wanted them to be.
>> That was the mall.
>> She She was just really young.
So for the times that you were able to spend with Tanner and your other son and when you were able to stay clean, did you enjoy being a mom?
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> What was your favorite part about being a mother?
>> Like going to a park with my kids and hacky sack and grizzy.
>> Melissa, I'm Miss Warner. I'm sorry.
I want to show you what has been offered as defense exhibit.
Who is it?
>> Me and Tanner.
>> Do you know how old he was in this picture?
>> When you look at defense exhibit number 58 >> again, ma'am. No, go back here.
I I know what he grew up to be, but right there you had a little boy in front of you. And And look, I I haven't dealt with addiction. I can't tell you how hard that is. But I can tell you all the things I said no to as a mom because my kids came first.
So maybe it's not the same, but dog on it. Imagine where we'd be if you had said no at that time.
Let's look at defense exhibit number 58.
Tanner, >> do you know how old he is in this picture?
>> About three.
>> Defense exhibit number 59. Who is this?
>> Tanner.
>> And about how old is he in this picture?
>> Really? Like about seven.
And what about defense exhibit number 60?
Is that also?
>> Yes.
>> Know about how old he is there.
>> 13.
>> Now we have That's exhibit number 61.
Can you describe what's going on in this picture?
>> Um I'm giving you shivers and my other sign's watching.
You mentioned your other son. Was uh Tanner excited to be a big brother?
>> Yeah, this is this is where this is very very much a minefield if the if you go through this as the defense because the very obvious link or question that the that that the jurors are going to have is what about Athena?
That is the ver very real danger you have where the jury will lose any modicum of sympathy because holy crap what about the victim in all of this there's not been a I am so sorry my son did this my son did a terrible thing there hasn't been any acknowledgement of Athena there's been a plenty of self of self victimization and and it does sound like she had a lot of chaos and and awful things happened to her. I'm not negating that. But gosh darn it, isn't it really, really irritating to hear all of this and not have one word come out of her mouth about about the loss of this little girl? And that's the problem you have when you're a defense and you go this route. It becomes incredibly grading.
>> Um, with Tanner, >> I don't know. I think he was really jealous, actually.
as most big brothers and big siblings are.
>> Yeah, >> I was lucky enough to be a baby. So, >> yeah.
>> Um, we talked about your rehab, we talked about your drug use, we talked about your mental health. I want to talk to you a little bit about your physical health.
>> And Jeffrey, I think that would be so much more poignant. And the state has been very good at at the minimal the actual suggestion. It's very much like Jaws the way that the state has done this. And I know that's going to sound glib. Let me explain.
In Jaws the movie, there was famously a lot of problems with the animatronic. So Steven Spielberg only put it in like very specific shots. And it is the absence of being able to see the monster that is actually terrifying. It builds that suspense because whatever your brain can, you know, think of and create and conjure is so much more scary than a mechanical malfunctioning shark.
So, I think it would be the same amount of powerful and much more poignant if they do what Jeffree suggested and in their closing instead of playing maybe the, you know, audio, they say, you know, the defense talked a lot about this little boy and their future. Well, let's look at what he did.
Where's this little girl's future? We can have all the sympathy for that little boy, but where is the sympathy for this little girl?
And and I think that would be a poignant, respectful, and dignified way to do that. Not that they're I think you can make an argument for playing the audio again. I guess >> my >> No, that is mine.
>> Why do you need a cup this small?
>> Take your tiniest cup in a cup. chat. My son is wanting to know why I would get a cup this small.
It's for uh Nick streams.
>> Nick, >> so >> I I guess that would be my suggestion.
Again, I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a person that watches a lot of trials and has a somewhat comprehensive grip of human behavior because I'm an inside cat and it's kind of my sport.
It said that you had the neck surgery.
Um, but other than that, has your drug use caused you to have any other medical problems?
>> For sure. Yeah.
>> Were you uh anything else? Have you been recently been in the hospital for anything or have you had to go to the hospital for an extended period of time?
>> Yeah, because of my neck. I was in there for seven weeks.
Because of the drug use, have you had to go to the hospital over the years to be treated for things?
>> I don't remember that. No.
>> Have you ever left the hospital and guess medical advice?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Why?
>> Probably because of pain management.
Tell me more about that. What do you mean you like the hospital because they you know how they always you know and I won't >> Oh ma'am ma'am ma'am ma'am. Oh the nerves you are rubbing raw in me right now. Y'all pray for me.
Pray for me.
lady. As a person who struggles with constant chronic pain and has to deal with every from one from a doctor to a pharmacist looking at me like I am you and I I am going to call you out like I am you. Like I engage in street pharmarmacology. Okay. It gets a little aggravating because because of patients like you a lot of real legitimate pain patients are dismissed. So, thanks so much for making my life so much [ __ ] harder.
>> That's what helps my pain. And they they have a thing about that now.
>> When you left the hospital against medical advice, was it to go get opioids?
>> Yes.
>> And by opio opioids, do you mean heroin?
>> Yes.
Do you know about how many times you left the hospital in order to get >> just like I think Miss Horner I want to switch gears again and I want to talk a little bit about Tanner as a child. Okay.
>> And please I know that you're let me know when you need a break. Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Thank you. We're going to have a moxy break because I'm I'm going to need donations for cursed jar money.
I I am so flipping flapjack irritated with this woman. I need about We have about a minute and YouTube was trying to save me. YouTube was like, "Mo, Mo, YouTube is just looking for a reason.
Um, so I am writing down things. Again, I have not clicked on anything. Um, I have not changed any settings. So, I am trying to keep an eye on that for Mr. Mo. Um, but here you guys are a Moxy break because this woman is is touching on every single one of my raw nerves.
And and that little angel on my shoulder, it is getting weak, y'all.
She's getting weak.
>> Oh yeah.
I take it down a minute and a hair.
Yeah. When the dock gets strong and the tea is high and the motions are quite a lot.
When the state says boom AND DEFENSE SAYS PASS, that's when I call my mini ass. So classy and SOO Oh my the emotional support mini donkey tiny but mighty a courtroom honky donkey if the child go just a soft little hehi and a little walk clap clip cl through the mess here high and out of rubble distress when the facts get wild and the lawyers get sty I lean on my emotional support.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
>> If a witness says I can't recall, she's side eyes and lean from the soul. If the sidebar last all afternoon, she hums A BRAVE AND SLIGHTLY OFF TUNE. She's pocket size bartal work from post to ver day. She snacks on hes.
Oh my queen of the pasture class small ruling the law to grass. When the timeline spirals and takes get funky, there's peace in a steadfast mini donkey. Courage fluffy and spunky. Oh, hell.
>> Swear to goodness. Google, stop. Look, I am just as done as you are. And um brace yourself, y'all, because she goes beyond lunch.
Beyond the afternoon break and longer, we are stuck.
>> When Tanner was a child, did you ever notice anything about him that made you feel that he was, I don't know, different from other children?
>> Yes. Yes.
>> What kinds of things did you notice?
Um, he didn't get along with I mean he wanted to get along with people but they just weren't interested in having conversations with him. Having him around was sad to watch. Very sad. I didn't like him at all.
>> How old was he when he first started to know these things?
>> Probably school.
>> Did any of this cause you any concern?
>> Oh, so sad to watch.
What types of things would you say?
>> I mean, he he doesn't he wouldn't say things like they did. They didn't he didn't talk the way he did. And it isn't like they could hear what they're saying, but you can tell by looking at his faces like I mean, he didn't know how to talk to them the way.
Did you see him um having this trouble with other people?
How did it make you feel when you saw your son having such difficulty interacting with children's name?
>> I wanted to go get help, see what's wrong.
>> Did you go get help?
>> Yes, I did.
>> What did you do?
>> I took him over here to Child Center and I think they rigorously testing for about 6 weeks, I think.
>> After they tested him, were they able to come up with a diagnosis? Aspers syndrome.
>> Did he have any other medical diagnoses during his childhood?
>> Well, they they would call it they kept telling me it was ADHD, but it wasn't.
They they they're always trying to treat him for something he didn't have.
And the medicine would always change him and make him something he wasn't.
With the diagnosis that he received, did you try to get Tanner services?
>> Yeah.
>> What kind of services did you try to get at one point?
>> Because he was struggling in school and I didn't want him to move like I did.
And um I would go to our meetings and we set up a a classroom the classroom to where it was more of a learning experience for him.
Were you able to get him a social security benefits?
>> Yes.
>> Your approach?
>> Yes.
What in the Now I don't know what caused again this sidebar um or they just went to lunch is what it seems but it was kind of an awkward sort of stop there. Now we do come back.
>> We were talking about diagnosis. One of those diagnoses that you had mentioned was um Asberers.
Did you ever see Tanner have any guess what meltdowns when he was younger?
>> Yes.
>> How often did these meltdowns occur?
Um, it would depend. Um, player could get his point across.
>> Mhm.
>> He was having trouble communicating.
>> Were the meltdowns his way of communicating?
>> No. His when he couldn't communicate. I This was just my personal feeling. When he was having trouble communicating, he would melt down.
>> The uh Let's talk some more about these meltdowns. When did you first notice Tanner having these these meltdowns?
>> Well, I thought they were tempor he would like punch himself in the head real hard.
>> Well, he said he punched himself in the head. Do you know if he ever punched himself out or lost consciousness because of that? Seems like he would, but no, he didn't.
>> When he had these meltdowns, he said that he felt that it was his frustration with not being able to communicate. When he had the meltdowns and got angry, did he direct the anger towards anyone else or was it always directed at himself?
>> I'm sure it was just himself really. And did you ever see him direct his anger?
>> He never tried to hit anybody.
>> Did he ever try to hit you?
>> No.
>> Did you ever see him try to hit his uh his grandmother?
>> No.
>> Did you ever see him hit a wall?
>> Yeah.
>> What would he hit the wall with?
>> This.
>> Would he ever break things?
>> Yes.
>> But you never saw him exhibit anger towards yourself?
>> No, not really.
At what age did he begin hitting himself in the head?
>> That that was um after he was getting bullies in school.
>> I'm sorry.
>> When he started getting bullied in school, >> Tam was bullied while he was in school.
>> Oh, terribly.
>> Did you ever see any of the bullying happen?
>> No, I would want to go up there and save him, but he would never let me. He would never let me go up there.
He said I would make it worse, but no, I wanted to.
What kind of bullying did you see happen?
>> I didn't see it.
>> She just said she didn't see it.
>> Did you see Tanner get bullied at any time?
>> Not at school.
>> His grandfather did sometimes.
>> You saw his grandfather bully him?
>> I saw his grandfather bully him sometimes.
>> So, let's talk about his grandfather.
Who was his grandfather?
>> Bill Harson.
>> He was married to your your mother, Jackie. Yes. Can I have friends your names, please?
>> How about we call them grandfather?
>> Okay.
>> Is that okay?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Um, how long >> again? How far back in this genealogy are we going to place the blame for Tanner's actions?
Because this is this is getting redundant.
And it it's it passed annoying a long time ago. It passed crass about 3 hours ago and it is now on my final nerve.
>> Were your mother and stepfather second stepfather married >> 30 years.
>> At any time did you and live with him?
>> The majority.
>> Mhm.
>> When you say the majority, what do you mean by the majority?
>> The majority of Tanner's life.
>> The majority of Tanner's life. Yes.
>> How did you or why did you move in with your mother and stepfather?
>> When I left Terry, um I was scared.
>> Why were you scared?
>> Because I his his dad stopped me for a long time and and I got scared and I moved in there cuz I I was uh much better.
>> So you were afraid that your husband would hurt you?
But you said he stopped you. How did he stop you?
>> He s across the street from my work and like following me home and stuff like that.
>> Did you fear for your safety?
>> Well, yeah.
>> Did you fear for Tanner's safety?
>> No, not that time.
>> Did Tanner did you think that Terry would ever hurt Tanner?
>> No.
>> Was he a good father?
>> He loved his dad. His dad loved him.
>> Was his father able to be there for him throughout his life?
>> Sometimes. When Terry wasn't able to be there for Tanner, typically where was he?
>> I don't know.
>> Do you know if he ever went to prison?
>> Yes.
>> How often or how many times did Terry go to prison?
>> Twice. Do >> you recall for how long?
>> No.
>> When you went to go live with your mother and your stepfather, you brought Tanner with you. Is that right?
>> Yes, I did.
How'd that go over with your mom and stepfather? Did they like having you there?
>> Yeah, they did actually.
>> Did you have a good relationship with your mother at the time?
>> Well, I was doing my own thing and um I I wanted to do it because I was having support with him. It was hard doing trying to do it on my own.
>> Absolutely.
>> And were you doing the best you could?
Mhm.
>> Yes. But I could have done a lot better.
I know that.
>> Someone once said that it takes a village. Is that what you found with your mother and stepfather?
>> Yes.
>> So, let's talk about your relationship with your stepfather.
>> No, you didn't find a village. You found two people that would watch your son for it what sounds like various degrees of neglect so you could continue your drug habit. I mean, if we want to be crystal about this, let's be crystal since that seems to be your choice.
>> Which one?
>> Uh, with the the most recent one.
>> Okay.
>> When you were living with your mother and the stepfather was born.
>> Is it okay if I call Mr. Harison >> without using first names?
>> Just Yeah. Go ahead.
>> Okay. And whatever makes you more comfortable, I will address him. in whichever way.
>> Go ahead.
>> With um how was your relationship with Mr. Harison?
>> He he was um well he you know he was a Vietnam veteran. He's he's very gung-ho and he very disciplined and I wasn't.
>> How old were you at the time that you were dead? Se >> well when her and my mom got together at first I was 17.
And then when you move back in with Tanner, probably >> about 20 21.
>> Did Did you and your mother's husband ever get into any arguments?
>> Oh, yeah. It was a lot of them.
>> Did any of them ever happen in front of Tanner?
>> Yeah, several.
And when we're talking about arguments, are we talking about disagreements or foreign yelling at >> I mean I mean we would yell, but I'm not proud of anything I did. I'm not I wear my shame like a badge now, you know.
>> Well, did any of the arguments that you had with your mother husband, did they ever turn physical?
>> Yes. Yeah, he did.
He ripped my other son out of my arms one time and I couldn't believe he did that.
>> How old was he at the time?
>> Me?
>> Your son >> when that happened?
>> The other one?
>> Yes.
>> Um I think he got three three or four when that happened.
>> Did any of these physical flights ever happen in front of camera?
>> Yeah. I mean, one time when just that one I think Karen had already grown up and um I mean I had never really had anybody take up for me before, you know, and Ken's a pretty big guy, you know. Then he was growing and Bill shackled me in the front yard and he started to put his fever in my eye.
>> Oh, dear Lord, it gets worse. I I am only hanging on. But look, my the the the angel on my shoulder has given up.
She's over here with the devil. Like, me, what are you going to do? We tried.
Um well, youngest, most feral um made macaroni and cheese.
And you know what? I am glad it tastes good to him. I am not sure what ratio of butter and milk he used because um well it didn't taste like any macaroni and cheese I've ever had.
But again, if he is going to eat it and not waste it, um then I am okay.
I I just I am very unsure as to how he actually combabulated that could be the only word in the English language to use >> like that because he he was mad at me and he wasn't going to do that. All of a sudden I feel Bill was pretty stout and I feel him just get lifted off of me. I looked up at Tanner and picked him up and picked him off of me. I was like, "Wow, I have somebody pick it up for me." But that is that's something Tanner should have seen as a child either. But um what about the relationship between your stepfather and Tanner? How was that?
>> I think Tanner kind of worshiped him.
Like him a lot, but Bill was mean to me.
>> What do you mean by mean? I was still mean to him.
>> That would be something you don't need to ask my mom. She knows more about that. So, I'm going to let my mom answer.
>> Did you ever witness any of it?
>> No, not really.
>> No, because you weren't there. Because I have granted you the title of mother, but you really weren't one if we get down to it. And the rest of us, you know, those victimless crimes you did, the rest of us are dealing with the aftermath. So, thank you so much.
>> Melissa, are you a grandmother?
>> Yes, I am.
>> How many grandchildren do you have?
>> Just one.
>> And who is that? Well, we're not going to say names.
>> Yeah, please.
>> Is it a granddaughter or grandson?
grandson.
>> How old's your grandson?
>> Clown fish in the wild that eat their young routinely are better parents than you. Hell >> bird species that abandon their eggs in other other species nests are better parental units than you. Ma'am, I am done trying to give you grace. How dare you use the title of mother? I am over this.
Four. Four was born.
>> Is uh who was the father of your grandson?
>> Tanner.
>> Were you around when Tanner learned that he was going to be a father?
>> Yes.
>> How did he react when he learned that he was going to be a doctor?
>> He was very excited.
>> And were you around when your grandson was born?
>> Yeah, I was around.
>> How was how did Tanner react when >> his son was born?
>> He's just happy. I mean, everybody is the babies are born.
>> Based on your observations of Tanner and his son, >> did he look like he enjoyed being a father?
>> He was He was a new father. You know, he never had a kid before, so he was scared. It scared him. You know, he was scared.
>> What do you mean by scared?
Like one day he goes, "Well, please come up. I need you to take the baby for a little bit." He was scared, I think, of hurting the baby defense. I I urge you the take her off the stand. I every every time I think that the limbo bar of human grossness that the defendant can go to can't get lower, it does.
Did you watch Tanner and and your grandson together often?
No, I didn't get to see him very much because all this happened.
>> Were there times when you did get to spend with your grandson?
>> I got to spend a few >> and thank goodness for the maternal grandparents. Again, I I tend not to go into the um families on either side of the cases I cover just because I if they were to reach out to me, it would be a different case. But I I I feel like they already have their privacy um invaded enough with just the court TV, you know, zooming in on them.
So, but what I have been able to gather in my limited research is that the maternal grandmother um has taken custody of the little boy. Now, there is speculation about this. Um the most concrete thing I can tell you is that the living conditions where uh the defendant and the mother of his child were living were squalor would be a step up. Okay.
It it dreams of being listed as a havvel and and I say this as a proud uh hill tuckian. Okay, as a hilljack, we never had a lot of money growing up. We grew up rural and you know wearing Walmart clothes. But there was one thing that my mom never let us be and that was trashy.
There is a difference between being poor and being trashy. And I am sorry but this is trashy.
>> You're not about to publish what has been admitted as offensive.
>> But the other um I'm sorry I lost my train of thought because I was so irritated. The other train of thought and kind of speculation as to why the maternal grandmother now has uh custody is that the defendant's former fiance is standing by her man. In that case, I I am eternally grateful that the maternal grandmother has stepped in and I I hope I pray this child can escape the chaos that has done generational damage um of this family because this that child's innocent and it deserves a future without all of this baggage. So, I really hope that when all is said and done in this case, that child has a chance at a future not shadowed by this as much as possible.
>> Exhibit number 58 >> 54. Sorry, defense exhibit number 54.
>> I'm sorry. I find the defense's use of the child incredibly grotesque. And since this is my channel, I'm not going to be putting up pictures of a minor child that his best outlook is that he is not connected to this.
I I will say uh Gail that that is speculation in the chat on law and crime. So make of that what you will. It is speculation. Again, this is rampant speculation um that happened in law and crime chat, but it is out there on the more speculative side. Um, on the more realistic side as to concrete reasons why the maternal grandmother would get custody, the filthy is not does not even cover where that child was living. And um if the mother was unwilling or unable to get out of that situation, then child services would place uh them in or a baby in a a much more stable area. And I think it's very telling that the paternal uh family members did not qualify as a stable enough um you know relation to provide kinship uh you know guardianship.
Uh that's really indicative of how incredibly dysfunctional this family is which is not an excuse but a contributing factor. And I think the defense really doesn't understand the unique and incredible difference between the meaning of those two, you know, concepts.
But I'll be damned if they're going to use a baby like this so callously on my channel.
>> Well, what did we just see a picture a video of? He's very stiff.
>> Was that you also in the video?
>> Yes. I think Cassie was taking a picture.
>> Who was Cassie?
>> Sorry.
>> Is that children?
>> No, not at all.
>> Were Tanner and Cassie living together when this video was taken?
>> Yes.
>> At any time did Tanner and Cassie live in the same house with you or the same residence that she and your mom?
>> Behind the residence? Yes.
Did you have the opportunity to um observe the relationship?
>> Not really. No.
>> He was working most of the time. He was working most of the time and um she had the baby or the mom did. Now, leading up to November the 30th of 2022, do you know whether Cassie and Tanner had been having any problems in the relationship?
Oh, yeah. Tanner, before that, not long before that, actually, Tanner came up to me almost in tears. He said, "Mom, I don't know what to do. She's spending my money faster than I can make it.
>> Did uh without going into what Tony have said, did he have other concerns about the relationship?
>> Not really. I mean, he wanted them he wanted them to be together, you know, but he didn't want I don't think he felt like he he could keep up with it with the whole thing.
>> Now, you've known Tanner all of his life. Did the issues with Cassidy, >> you know, defense? Ironically, that might be the truest statement. She has known of Tanner all his life. I mean, this woman has not been a mother. She's been a loose acquaintance at best, a a a distant, you know, removed auntie, if you want to put it in a familiar a familial sense. But this woman is h it has not been a mother in the true sense of the word to to the defendant >> and the the finances based on your observations. Did that appear to cause him distress or or stress?
>> Yes. He he had finally found a girl to stay with, you know, that would save him and u he really wanted to keep her, you know.
Oh god. Mom, could you make it sound like he's trying to kidnap an underage girl? Oh, wait. He already did that. Oh, wait. No, he already has underage girls that he wouldn't let leave, too. Let's remind the jury of that. Is she a plant from the state?
Honest to God, is Ashton Kutcher going to come out?
Are we being punked?
No. Let's remind the jury of how Tanner has, you know, this unfortunate habit of trying to confine young women in in his presence cuz he's oh wait on trial for doing just that and more. Jesus mouldering Mary and Joseph.
So he was treated pretty bad.
>> Warner, I want to talk to you about the incident itself. The reason why we are here today.
You understand that your son has pled guilty to kidnapping and killing of right?
>> Yes.
>> And you know some of the facts and information surrounding what may have occurred during the incident.
Is that right?
knowing that he guilty to this.
Are you angry with him?
>> I'm so mad at you.
>> The first words out of your mouth should be, and I quote, "I am so incredibly sorry.
I don't give a rat's ass whether you're angry at the defendant. We all are. Join the club. We have a t-shirt and a secret handshake. Okay.
Welcome to the biggest majority decision you know you could ever make.
That's baseline boilerplate.
You tell a fellow mother because you're title you're titling yourself as such how incredibly sorry you are that your baby stole her baby. How about that?
I want to just tear that up.
In spite of everything that you know about this case, do you still love your son?
>> Of course I love my son.
I don't love who did that though.
I don't know who that was.
You don't know who that was? Well, let me introduce you to that. That human piece of garbage is what you birthed and unleashed on this world.
disgusting.
Legitimately, you guys does. At this point, they are going to write new legislation that allows the state of Texas to continually have an eternal drip of suinal choline on the mouldering remains of this man.
Well, that was a special level of stupid I've never seen before.
Oh, dear God. She continues.
One second. Uh, look, I'm not um I am neither Jesus nor Oprah nor your spiritual leader. But I am going to take a break to get an adult beverage. Again, I do not encourage things. You should do as I do not do. I think we've learned. Um, Sebastian, I I am listening. I don't think we're going to get across. It looks like we are going to get um to uh grandma.
So, I think she's got just a little bit more to go. And then we've get uh grandma because I don't think she gets crossed very much. Thankfully, mercifully, >> do what's called a deposition. We ask you some questions like >> Oh, it does look like we are getting across.
Okay.
State, I need this. Please talk logic to me. Talk sense. Talk facts. I feel like I've been listening to a flat earth convention. I need something to make sense. Please, dear God, talk logic to me. State.
>> Yes.
>> And um so I just want to know I kind of know a little bit more than just from what you've said here today because we spent several hours talking at that time. Correct.
>> Yes.
>> All right. So I'm going to kind of try to just quickly go through a few things.
Um you had a difficult childhood that you described for the jury here and um there came a point where you needed a place to go, right?
>> Yes.
>> When you separated from >> Yes.
>> And where did he go?
>> Two months.
>> And that was home for >> Yeah.
>> And from the point that you went to your mom and when you separated from when two years old was that essentially from that point forward?
>> Well, I dragged him in and out, you know. I took him to several residential facilities trying to get it right. I really did try.
>> And I understand that you always knew he always knew >> that that was his home where he could go back to, right?
>> Yes.
>> And um when you went when you lost your sobriety at times where you would go off on your own leave where would be >> at home.
>> And home was where?
>> With my mom.
>> Okay. And who else?
>> Bill.
>> Okay. And did Tanner have a name for those? For your mom and for Bill?
>> Mimi and Papa.
>> And um when we talked before in February of 2025, he said that Papa was a good pop to him.
>> Yeah.
>> Tell us the kind of thing that made him good.
>> Well, he showed discipline, you know, vision.
>> Did you teach him how to do things?
>> As far as I know. Yeah.
>> Mow the lawn, things like that. Yeah.
>> Um, did you have expectations of him and of Tanner and your other son as well?
>> Yes.
>> No rules in the house that they had to follow.
>> Yes.
>> And your mom, was she a good and a loving provider um for those boys?
>> Yes.
>> And knowing that um that they had a safe and good place to to live. Did that make you feel better about everything?
>> Yes, we did. And did you always feel that Tanner and your other son I would call my name that they were safe there and Papa?
>> Yes.
>> And um that Mimi and Papa were going to provide them with the support that they needed even if you weren't paying attention.
>> Right.
>> Is that right?
>> Right.
>> And then there would be times where you would come home as well. Right.
>> Right.
>> And how would things change in that?
Well, I would I would be, you know, sorry I was gone and uh once again I was gone and I'm almost sorry and be able to give me the talk and and you know, >> but were you essentially welcomed back into the family?
>> Sure.
>> And >> well, they know I was a good mother.
They they knew when I was around I was a good mother.
>> That you love your sons.
>> Absolutely. Right. And but as far as their schooling and and whatever benefits that they might be receiving, who was the person handling those kind of things for the most part?
>> Me.
>> You.
>> Me.
>> Okay. So, um what who would be handling it when you were not there?
>> Now, my mother uh I would uh get the insurance for him because my mother was working at the time. She couldn't and me and the boys were staying behind so in the back. So, u it would work out like that.
Okay. By you saying you got insurance, do you mean that uh kind citizens who pay their taxes and work hard paid for um the social safety net that you qualified for because you decided to choose drugs at every opportunity.
I'm just making sure we're understanding everything.
So your contribution, your gift of motherhood was to screw up so epically that you could not hold down a job so you would enlist the social safety net that hardworking people use.
And people who are down on their luck absolutely have the right to use. So don't think I am I am because again like I said there is no shame in being poor in being dirt poor. There is a lot of shame about being trashy. And right there, this is trashy behavior. And I'm going to call it out.
So again, please do not I I have given you grace on a lot, but I'm going to need you to step off your high horse like you did something. Okay.
And um with regard to the time that all this went down, you were living there.
Bill had passed away sometime though, correct?
>> Yeah.
>> Papa four years ago.
>> Papa passed away when when was it?
>> About four years ago.
>> And um after that, were you living there with your mom in the house?
>> Yes.
>> And was your other son also in the house?
>> Yes. Can we not talk about him, please?
>> I'm not going to talk.
>> He doesn't want me to talk about him.
>> Okay. Again, ma'am, we have given you just about all the grace we can handle.
And I'm talking like miss crunch bowl level of of of of grace.
She's a brick house. That grace and you are testing her. Okay.
>> Yeah. Um but as far as the people that were living in the house, it was a preview. And where was Canada?
in the back.
>> And do you call that the shed, the half?
What do you call that? Bedroom.
>> Big sigh. A big >> Why do you call?
>> Cuz he doesn't know how to clean.
Terrible cleaner. But has excuinlaw.
When the hell was it written that Tanner didn't have arms and legs to pick up his own damn trash? Look, I'm not excusing his weirdo girlfriend cuz there's like a boatload of issues there. But but let's let's get real about this. How the hell are you going to judge someone else?
Ma'am, again, I'mma need you to step off your miniature moral high horse because it was not only dead years ago, but it was lame then.
>> Over the years, um, that place has been cleaned and then made dirty again.
>> I mean, I would go back there and do what I could, but it would get so trashed so bad. Yeah, I know.
>> Understood. So, let's talk about Tanner and his uh one of the things that he did. Did he was stand um did he graduate from high school?
>> Yes.
>> Um did he uh was he into music?
>> Oh, yeah. That's his thing.
>> Did he play musical instruments?
>> Yeah, he plays played everything.
>> Guitar?
>> Yeah. If he picks up an instrument, he can he can master it.
>> Does sing?
>> No.
Does he practice?
>> He shot the scene.
>> Does he play keyboard?
>> Yeah.
>> Does he mix his own music on the computer?
>> Yeah.
>> Play video games?
>> Um, so he had interest similar to other people. Correct.
>> Right.
>> Let's talk about um in high school, did he participate in um the wrestling team?
>> Yes, he did.
>> You watch him do that?
>> Yeah. Only only once twice.
>> Um when he was little, did he play in little league games, things like Yes, he did.
>> So, he was able to be on the team and participate just like other people, right?
>> Well, I mean, he tried.
>> Well, he was part of the team, right?
>> Yeah. It didn't last long though, but he tried. And I always told you as long as you try.
>> And um when they did the practice for the bands, did they do it often at your house or back in T behind?
>> Um my neighbors didn't like that. She was. So they they had to do it somewhere else cuz Steve I mean the neighbors didn't like that.
>> But Ton was a part of several different bands. Do you agree?
>> Yes.
>> So in that respect he was working with other young men same age as himself around that age. Is that >> they got >> Did you ever did you ever express any concerns other than just the loudness of the music about what was going on?
>> No. The state is trying to show that again while the defense is painting a picture of this loner who never left his havvel that it was some miraculous Sheldon-like miracle he found another you know Amy Fowler Ferris to to couple up with and then by some other miracle they had a child. No, it's it's more to show that he wasn't so incredibly impacted to the point of not being functional in society by his Asperers.
And most people with Asperers, you wouldn't know unless they told you. I mean, it it can be that that subtle. I mean it it not every medical treat uh you know uh condition is as you know severe as what Hollywood makes it so or you know movies or whatever you want to so it's it is to again just show that the defense is being very disingenuous with how they are portraying the defendant because there are many um he was able to you have uh steady jobs. Now, did he maintain them? No. But he he was able to semifunction in society. And the defense would have you imagine that he was worse off than Forest Gump.
>> What was going on back? I don't know what was going on back there. I don't >> Um let's let me ask you and talk about this real quick. Um I'm not going to I want you to know I understand your your life situation has not made easy and I know this has not made easier. Um but I want to ask you what your understanding is what happened.
>> Could you say that again please? What is your understanding of what happened >> at first or >> I think this is going to be very powerful and the state is very very uh being very strategic and she has gone out I think it would have been risky to cross-examine her uh before we came back from the break and she turned out to be awful as a human being.
Um that being said again this this witness in particular uh is very good at distancing herself and avoiding accountability now not only for herself but now um you know transiatorily you know for her son through osmosis. So, I like this strategy of the state because again, I I want her to be confronted with cold hard facts and I think that the state will do that in a very respectful way, but it is going to be this is going to be a mic drop moment in my opinion. Sorry to stop it, but I do have to add, you know, content. I have to be an annoying narrator for a couple minutes every once in a while, otherwise they think I'm a bot.
And you might think in, you know, the replay that I am, but I'm actually real.
I know it haunts you in your nightmares.
Sorry.
>> After right now.
>> Well, let's talk about it at first.
>> Well, at first I believed in what my son told me.
>> And what did he tell you?
>> That he backed into a little girl. He panicked and strangled her.
And um so you said at first I believe that and now do you believe something different?
>> Yes.
>> And have you been watching the live streams of >> Don't get me thrown in jail.
>> What was that?
>> Am I going to go to jail for that? No.
Yes, I have.
>> Oh, dear God. First of all, um you understand what it is to be No, you don't understand what it I don't have the crayons to explain to you what it is to be sequestered. But you would think that the defense would have explained to you with those threeack crayons uh from any number of restaurants with child menus that you cannot watch the [ __ ] live stream as a witness.
Throw her in jail. Contempt of court. I I sympathy gone. Just gone.
You're you're not I'm just asking if you had the ability to watch the trial process.
>> So now that you've seen those things, what is your understanding about what happened?
I don't know what to say. I'm so sorry.
I don't know what to say.
You know, I have to keep already hospital. So, can we finish?
>> We're done. We're done. We're done.
>> Okay.
>> Oh my god. She could not allow Athena to be the victim for just one second. She had to bring her pain into this. Ma'am, I would like to kindly ask you from the chronic pain community, could you please, please, and I I beg of you, not mention your pain.
Dear God, please do not let the next witness test me. Please let the this next witness have a modicum, a a a modicum of accountability, however small I need it in this timeline.
>> We have daughter.
>> Okay.
Is she back here or out there? I believe she is in the back. I will check.
>> Okay.
Now, because she is blurred out, I believe this is going to be the uh maternal grandmother of the defendant.
So the woman who actually did fill the nurturing role as such in Tanner's childhood >> raise your hand testimony again.
>> Yes sir.
>> Okay. Here's Texas.
>> D O T I E.
>> Good afternoon, Donnie. How are you doing?
>> Okay.
Um, Donnie, if you will just introduce yourself to the jury and we breathe there will be no last names here, but if you'll just let them know your name, please.
>> Die.
>> Die. How are you?
How are you related to Tam Horn?
>> It's my brother's son's son. So, that would be my brother's grandson.
>> Does that make you his great aunt?
>> Yeah, I'm his great aunt.
Um, I want to talk to you a little bit about your family. Okay. Uh, who you said that you that Tanner is your brother's grandson. Who was your brother?
>> Emmer.
>> And obviously Elmer had some kids.
>> Yeah. Yes.
>> Was And one of those children was the father of Hannah Horn.
>> Yes. Now, what is his name?
>> Terry. Julian.
>> I want to talk a little bit about Terry.
Now, you said that Terry is your nephew.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. And whose parents were Elma and who was his mother?
>> Shirley.
>> Shirley. Okay.
>> No, Janet.
>> Janet. Okay. So, let's talk >> what in the Jerry Springer gone rule is going on here. Look, I'm trying y'all.
This is making Hillchucks look bad. As as a person of Appalachin descent, I I am inwardly cringing at the picture being painted for Look, look, can I can I just simply say that I I promise you there is a difference between being poor and a little tacky and trashy.
And it's a distinct difference. And we actually pride ourselves like there's there literally is a big distinction.
That is why um white trash is so pjorative to to my people.
That's why legitimately like the only thing that will get me ticked off is if someone will question if I'm you know cuz again I that's the funny thing with like real hill jucks real appalachins like we are all just temporarily not rich in our own mind. So we we may be poor, we may be temporarily without funds, but we are futuristically potentially rich. So we always kind of conduct ourselves with pride.
And then there's trashy. Okay.
So like I said, there is a real distinction and I am trying not to viscerally like every one second say y'all. I swear I sound like them, but I am not them. Okay? We don't go to the same school. Think mean girls like we don't know her. Okay.
I just feel like I have to stand up for my my people that talk like me, you know, cuz I'll get more southern as I get more upset and and I really just don't want people to to ven diagram me anywhere near this because I swear there is a distinction.
>> A little bit about Elmer and Janet. Uh, did Elder Janet stay married?
>> The his sister was 9 months old when they got him separated.
>> When they divorced, where did Terry go?
>> Terry was pushed here.
He had no home.
>> He had no home. So, did he uh after divorce, did he deliver?
>> To start with my mother. She had all three of them. I took one of the girls.
My mother kept the ninemonth old baby and Terry went with my other sister for a little while and he ended up in Ohio with his daddy and stepmother for a short period. It sounds like Terry and his siblings got shuffled around a lot.
>> Well, Terry was the only one that really got shuffled cuz I kept Shauna his sister for years and sent her to school with my my oldest daughter. Now, Donnie, based upon what you observed from of Terry's childhood, >> did he appear to have a very stable one?
>> Not hardly.
>> And why do you say that?
>> Because he never had a home. At one time after he got grown, he was living in his sister's backyard in a building, storage building.
>> Do you know if he ever had instances where he was homeless?
>> Oh, yeah. But I don't I couldn't take him in at that time because of the drugs. I didn't trust uh >> Tell me more about that. What about the drugs?
>> I just know he was on drugs and ended up in prison several times and that was what it was about was the drugs.
>> Y'all, my brain is is combating the the inward cringe by creating an entire spoof of Game of Thrones. Um, god damn.
It won't it it's you know good good night nurse like just SNL if I had the budget the wigs the time and the editing skills I would be working on um methos uh may the strongest crystal rule them all. I mean you know it it would be Chastity Daenerys. She wouldn't be a queen um of anything but a corner. Good lord. I don't know. Honest to goodness. I mean, I might finish uh a song of well, fire and shark NATO before uh J RR Martin. So, you know, fingers crossed.
Can you imagine what HBO will do with it?
Trailer Park Boys meets Westeros.
Can you imagine ba battling banjos with a Game of Thrones theme? I'm just saying you guys, HBO, call me. Call me now.
>> Before Terry went to prison, u do you know if he had any kids?
>> I think he had several. And I never really got to meet them all. I'd see one or two here or there, but everybody, it was a big joke in the family of how many kids Terry had.
Tiny baby Jesus, what is going on here?
He spread his seed like Johnny in the Apple Seed story. We don't know how many youngans he had.
We just I mean sometimes we see a pair of blue eyes in a checkout and we're like that might be one of Terry's youngans.
What What in the Hellman's mayonnaise is going on here? Done.
But I don't I don't even know y'all. I I don't even know. We we have we have gone full farce. I we have gone full waiting for good. I I I fully expect this is when we learn that the simulation and Matrix are real. Right. Cuz this can't be reality.
Right. Right.
And as we know Tana Horner was one of Ter's children. Right.
How old was or do you recall how old Tanner was when Terry went to prison?
>> I really don't remember how old he was.
I know he was just a baby and I don't remember how many years he cuz Terry was in prison several times for drugs and the last time I know Tanner was four or five years old when he got out.
>> Well, let's talk about when Terry got out of prison. When Terry got out of prison, where did he go live? my mother's >> and what is uh >> honest to god this makes Lenny from of m man look like a rogue sc a rogue scholar I mean at this point I expect him to write a dissertation on on rabbits that will be more enlightening again for those of you watching from outside the country uh all of America is not represented here.
>> What is your mother's first name?
>> Ethel.
>> So when Terry was released, he went to live with Ethel. Was there anyone else living with her at the time?
>> No.
>> Was there anyone else that was taking care of her at the time?
>> She's been home healthy. And my daughter would go and take care of her, too.
>> Did you ever go and spend time with her mom?
>> Oh, yes. Every day nearly.
When did you have the opportunity to to interact and get to know Terry at all when he was living with your mother?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> When Terry was living with your mother, did Tanner ever come visit?
>> Every weekend.
Every weekend.
>> How was that? Was Terry happy to have him over there?
>> Oh, yes. He was very happy.
Tanner was he was running around and up and down and everything into everything.
Well, how did your mother uh >> My mother didn't want me saying nothing to him cuz I was running. Calm down.
>> Tanner, not >> Well, Donnie, let me ask you. Did your mom like having her son >> Oh, good lord. The timeline couldn't even handle it. What in the heck?
Uh, did they go? Did they stop? Is that all of it? Okay, it looks like Let me Let me see if they stopped there.
>> From of Terry's childhood, did he appear to have a very stable one?
>> Big joke in the family of how many kids Terry had.
And as we know, Hannah Horn was one of Terry's children, right?
How old was Do you recall how old Hannah was when Terry went to prison?
I really don't remember how old he was.
I know he was just a baby and I don't remember how many years he cuz Terry was in prison several times for drugs and the last time I know Tanner was four or 5 years old when he got out. Well, let's talk about when Terry got out of prison.
When Terry got out of prison, where did he go live?
>> My mother's.
>> And what is uh what is your mother's person?
>> Ethel.
So when Terry was released, he went to live with Ethel. Was there anyone else living with her at the time?
>> No.
>> Was there anyone else that was taking care of her at the time?
>> She had home health aid. And my daughter would go and take care of her, too.
>> Did you ever go and spend time with her mom?
>> Oh, yes. Every day.
>> When did you have the opportunity to to interact and get to know Terry at all when he was living with your mother?
>> Oh, no.
When Terry was living with your mother, did Tanner ever come visit?
>> Um, so who they are talking about right now would be the defendant's uh father.
Um, now the woman on on the stand is the defendant's great aunt.
Um, and I guess she is here just to highlight again how both sides of this family seem to have incredibly generations of incredibly chaotic and dysfunctional childhood and family structures.
um that and I'm I'm not trying to negate that this woman sounds like a lovely woman who took in a child that wasn't her own and tried to raise them just like um it was her own child. So, I'm not taking that away from the family members that did open up their homes and try to do better, but it it seems that that those generational curses are just incredibly hard to break even if you do have people that invite you in.
Um, that being said, this is I I don't know what this is doing for the defendant.
>> Every weekend.
Every weekend.
>> How was that? Was Terry happy to have him over there?
>> Oh, yes. He was very happy. And the Tanner was he was running around and up and down and everything into everything.
Well, how did your mother >> My mother didn't want me saying nothing to him cuz I was calm down.
Yeah.
>> Well, Donnie, let me ask you. Did your mom like having her son and >> her grandson >> grandson and great grandson over there?
>> Oh, yes.
>> So, let's talk about some of these visits. You said that Tanner was into everything. Um, what did that look like around the house?
>> He was a ringtail tutor at the end of everything. Jumping up and down on beds and I couldn't stand it. My mother wanted me to just be quiet. He's just here on weekends.
You know, she didn't want me to say nothing to him.
>> Do you know or recall how old Hannah was when we come over?
>> I really can't remember. I know he was four or five years old. He was just a little thing.
>> And at that time he was just a whirling dervish.
>> Yeah.
>> Or I think a Tasmanian devil.
>> Yeah. Something.
Um, you said that he was into anything or into everything. But what kind of things would Tanner do when he was at your mother's house?
>> I wasn't there all the time, but when I was there, he was just, you know, he'd run and jump and get into this and a normal, but the jumping up and down and he would ignore it. You know, Terry would try to say something to him. I think it was because I was there.
>> Well, then brought me to my next question. Uh, did anybody was anybody able to control his behavior?
Um, not that I said.
>> So, did he listen to Terry?
>> Did he?
>> Because no one controlled his behavior because it requires someone to be constantly present. Again, I have a a My youngest, most feral is a spinal tap 13 ADHD. Okay. Heavy emphasis on on the 13.
All right.
That doesn't mean we allow him. And he tries. boy does he try to say, "Well, but my medicine isn't helping me or or I have ADHD." No. No. We can always practice self-control. So, yeah, there may be obstacles. There may be challenges with each individual child, but you, you know, if you stick to it, um, yeah, they may have struggles. They may have to be told multiple times. They may have impulse control, but you you do see that they are able to exercise self-control. My my Tasmanian devil, when a little tiny baby is around, becomes completely protective. He will go up to other kids and say, "No running, no running."
So again, yeah, it's it's a constant struggle to remind him that he does have the power of self-control despite what he struggles with, that there are always ways that he can manage it and, you know, try to do better. That yes, he has these struggles. So no, allowing a child to one run wild is not parenting.
Parenting requires hard work and consistency, and it's not easy.
So you let him do anything he wanted without consequences. The whole family did apparently.
>> Did he listen to him? Did he mind him?
>> Well, at that time I I felt like he wasn't. He did stop uh doing things, but he's going right back into it.
>> Would you mind your mother?
>> Mother didn't get on to him when I was there, I think, cuz she wanted me to be quiet with him.
>> Did he mind you when he talked to him?
He would look at me and you know he was uh kind of scared cuz I wasn't there all the time. I'd just come by for an hour or two when I got off work.
>> How long did Terry stay with with your mother?
>> I'm not for sure. He would probably still been there if the apartment house she lived in. They had to put her in the hotel because they had to uh jackhammer her floor up for plumbing problems. And I think he went then to stay with his uh cousin Bert. I can't remember. I think they're cousins.
Yeah, they're cousin.
>> It sounds to me like Terry and Ethel had a very good relationship.
>> Oh, my mother wrote him every day. He was in prison every day. She she loved her kids, grandkids, and great grandkids.
And how long did these visits with between Terry and Ham last? I mean for not how long was each visit, but did he come and stay with Terry every weekend?
>> Every weekend he was coming every weekend.
>> Did those visits stop?
>> Oh, I'm so sorry.
>> I just don't know how to shut it off.
>> How long did I'm sorry.
>> I can ask a question again. Um, how long did Terry live with?
>> I'm not for sure how long, but as long as, you know, she was there. And I guess then is when Bert said he could come out there.
>> And did Tanner go every weekend that he lived with Bethl?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Did the visit between Terry and Tanner ever stopped?
>> Not while she he lived there. Well, one weekend. Yes. cuz the mother wouldn't understood it was she wanted Terry to go with her to buy drugs and he didn't want to and they got into a big deal and she wouldn't let him have him for a week or so.
>> Based upon what you observed between Terry and Tanner, uh did Terry appear to love his son?
>> Oh yes. Yes, I know that he did. He really did.
>> Oh, what makes you say that?
>> Because of the way he he acted with him.
You know, when I said something about him jumping up and down on the bed the way Terry got him to stop, you know, instead of, you know, I would have spotted him, but not Terry. Not with the, you know, he really cared and knew that he'd been gone out of his life and he wanted to be back in his life.
I really think he was just a very small baby when he went to prison.
And based on your observations and your interactions with Terry and Tanner, do you feel that that T sorry that Terry was trying to turn his life around, take care of his son?
>> Yes, I do.
>> Was he able to do that?
>> No, he wasn't.
>> Okay.
>> Yes, ma'am.
I have nothing for your >> cross examination.
>> No question.
>> May this witness the excuse subject to any potential recall?
>> No judgments.
>> No. Thank you, ma'am.
physical.
So I guess this is the end of the day.
Um, considering we have had the mother, the father is no longer with us and I don't think that we're going to get the grandmother on the stand.
I honestly don't know how much longer the defense is going to have in their case and chief.
Um, I I would imagine that this is going to maybe wrap up by Friday given the overall performance today.
Um, y'all I I think we we definitely see that there is a clear pattern between, you know, a chaotic and uh traumatic childhood and and really bad things and it carrying on. Um on a serious note, I do hope that the state really prepared um Athena's family and uh the other, you know, the gallery, you know, friends and family that this was going to be um very much like this. Uh it didn't take, you know, a Nancy Drew or even a Nancy Grace to figure out that this was probably going to be the the strategy that the defense was going to use. Did I think it was going to be this exploitative and this glib and crass? No, I did not. Um, but the defense is always there lowering the bar on human reasonable expectations of dignity, I guess.
Dear Lord, y'all, um, watch some kitten videos. Um, go do something nice for someone else. um this day after this day um you know when our our reaction is to be angry and irritated. Let's remember that we can't fix stupid. No, we can't.
But we can make someone's day if we just do something nice. Um we never know what small acts of kindness really mean. And um you know, we can all spend uh just a little bit of effort to make the world just a little bit of a better place. I will see you all tomorrow for Mornings with Mo and then we will be back um dealing with the defense. I don't know what else to say, you guys. Um I do endeavor to um shameless self-promotion.
I do endeavor um if the internet gods are with me to uh attempt to get another video up for my craft channel tomorrow uh kind of explaining what comes in a stamped crossstitch uh kit and how you would go about setting one up. So that is the plan and I intend to get back on reading Small Sacrifices, but holy foli you guys, I need to go watch some kitten videos. So, I am going to do that. Um, I am sending you over to Megan Fox. Have a wonderful, wonderful day. I will see you guys tomorrow. Bye.
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