Labour Needs A Prime Minister Who Understands ‘Fighting Politics’ | Labour Historian

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[00:00:00]the people who are the prime ministers who are willing to um you know see politics as that kind of muscular effort. Tony Blair was great at it.

[00:00:08]Margaret Thatcher was great at it. And I think that's the kind of thing that um the Labour Party needs to be looking for. Somebody who understands that uh you have to have a fight in politics.

[00:00:18]You have to have a vision. That's what Karma very clearly didn't have.

[00:00:21]>> Safeguarding Minister Jess Phillips has become the most high-profile minister to resign from government. And to quote just a bit of her letter to K which is stinging in its rebukes. She says decency is vital. Calm curiosity is also needed. But so too a fight and drive.

[00:00:40]Have a row. Push back. Make arguments.

[00:00:43]Bring people along. Standing up and being counted can't always be workshopped. Politics is as much about feelings as policy, especially at the moment. Well, there certainly are some fields rushing around Westminster this afternoon. But at this morning's cabinet meeting, Sakir Stama adopted his familiar position of human doors stop keeping the door shut, not open. He told ministers he wouldn't resign despite 85 MPs now calling for him to go. Let's talk about all of this uh with our busiest lady, Anna Mahiviver, uh Times Radio's political editor who joins us now. And a very good afternoon from us.

[00:01:23]>> Good afternoon. Uh now tell us about the latest fields there at Downing Street. I mean Jess Phillips letter does make for some very interesting reading, doesn't it? Uh she also presents very clearly an example of why she's got fed up uh because as safeguarding minister she really wanted to push through something uh that would help protect the children of this country in terms of images of them appearing online and she felt that she just didn't make any headway with a very very important piece of policy with K star. He just didn't get there just wasn't dynamic enough. I mean it it tells us a lot doesn't it?

[00:02:03]It's her letter is very personal to K star uh and it's a very personal attack on what he often describes as his legacy. So his allies usually like to say that he is very strong on violence against women and girls. And Jess Phillips uh makes a really stiging case against that saying that accusing him of being more enthralled to tech bosses than protecting children. And shortly after Jess Phillips's resignation dropped, another minister resigned, Alex Davies Jones, who is the victim's minister. Um her letter was not as long, but she is a significant person within the government. She's someone who brings a lot of people with her and again in that work um on injustice and for victims. This is another big blow to Karma. So these are the latest names that we have this afternoon. Can we just go back in time a bit? Can you tell us how much you know about what was said during that very important cabinet meeting this morning?

[00:03:04]>> Absolutely. So the cabinet came around came in um Karma kicked off the meeting by addressing his critics saying that he is going nowhere because as he put it no formal leadership challenge has been launched.

[00:03:20]He then said he wouldn't actually discuss either the elections or the calls for his about his leadership at cabinet and wanted to focus it all on the Middle East. Um afterwards it's been confirmed by several sources that Wes Streeting actually tried to come and talk to Karma and he was refused the meeting. So at the moment, you know, in the building behind me, we've got this slightly bizarre situation where a prime minister effectively is refusing to engage with his critics in his own party and even with his own cabinet ministers.

[00:03:55]Um, and you know, even just putting the leadership um claims aside, this is the first cabinet meeting after a very significant loss at the local elections and he refused to talk about the elections at the meeting. So, it's just a very strange state of affairs where everybody is looking towards the potential rivals in cabinet. Immediately after cabinet, we had the loyalists come out and talk to us here on Downing Street, which is quite unusual. Um, but now we're seeing this trickle of resignations and more calls for him to quit. So, as any fedup parent uh will be able to attest, uh you do end up saying to the teenager, you can't stay in your bedroom forever. So, the position that you've outlined for us, Anna, where Sakir Starmer is just kind of, you know, refusing to deal with all of this, how long does that last for? How long can it last for? Tomorrow is an important day, isn't it?

[00:04:55]>> It is. It's the king's speech where the government will set out its agenda. But there's a way of reading this as well um to say that actually Karma what he's doing is he's just flushing out uh any leadership rivals and it's being done well in the knowledge that for example where's streeting if he were to go now that would damage his chances of succeeding Star's leader the people around Wes know that Wes knows that um but if he doesn't go he also looks like he's bottled it so there are there is a school of thought that Karma having been boxed into a very difficult position is making it as difficult as possible for his successor and in a strange way is almost aligned in this uh way with Andy Bernham who a lot of MPs want to see back in parliament but they do not want a contest to start before he has a chance of doing so. So, and both of those scenarios essentially buy the uh prime minister a little bit of time.

[00:05:53]>> Yeah. Uh Steven in Brighton wanted to ask the very specific question. Anna, what happens if ministers keep resigning or Starmmer does go? What happens to the king's speech tomorrow? Can it be cancelled or moved?

[00:06:09]>> My understanding from speaking to the parliamentary authorities is the king's speech is going ahead. Um the clarks have confirmed that because the official position is the king's speech represents the king is speaking on behalf of the government, not any specific prime minister, that that would not be affected. um at this point. But of course, if we see a host of resignations from cabinet and Karma struggles to form a government, then that's a very valid question. And to be honest, we're all we'll be looking at answers later in the day. Anna, for the moment, thank you very much indeed. I think we're going to catch up with you in the next hour of the program. I know you've got people to talk to uh and places to be. So, we'll come back to Anna just after 3:00. So, Andy Bernham is in London. He's been spotted at Houston station. More than a fifth of Labour MPs have called on Karma to resign. But many of those MPs say the PM needs to set out a timetable for his exit. How would that work? Richard Parade is a former Labour official and he's now a historian of the party. So this idea of a timetable for an orderly exit. Um how would that work, Richard?

[00:07:18]Well, I don't think there's some sort of uh clearly uh constitutionally articulated version of this. The answer is that it would be determined by the high politics of it all. Um so, you know, when people say they want an orderly transition, uh that means a lot of very different things in the Labour Party. I think for people on the on the right, the center of the party, what they mean is they want West Streeting in ASAP. Um, and for everyone else in the Labour Party, it means can you give Andy Bernham some time to get in, please, but can you promise you will go? So, yeah, I think it's it's a it's a very political thing. It's there's nothing uh uh uh uh certain about it.

[00:07:56]>> So, do you foresee a situation in which he serves as the kind of ultimate lame duck until the autumn?

[00:08:04]>> I think it's possible.

[00:08:08]and uh how much of a lame duck he would be, you know, actually would be determined by events. I don't think it's at all impossible given the terrible geopolitical and global economic picture um that actually whoever was in Downing Street would have to make some pretty significant decisions. Um, fortunately for um all of us and uh uh uh our energy bills, you know, the the kind of big decisions about kind of exactly what we're going to do with energy bills can be delayed for a few months. Um the energy price cap, the offg cap gets renewed every 3 months, but the really big decisions about that are going to wait until kind of very late summer, early autumn, and therefore probably could be made by a new leader. Um but yeah, it's not a it's not a great situation, is it?

[00:08:56]>> But which of the candidates are the best in terms of their foreign affairs knowledge and experience, would you say?

[00:09:06]>> I mean, none of them are are kind of absolute experts on that area, are they?

[00:09:11]I I I think generally British prime ministers don't have enormous amounts of foreign affairs experience when they come into uh uh come into the role. But often, you know, a good prime minister is one that understands how you use the power of the state to obviously make people's lives better, but more politically you how you use the power of the state to uh uh kind of divide the electricians of the the coalition who are going to support you versus the people who were never going to support you anyway. the people who are the prime ministers who are willing to um you know see politics as that kind of muscular effort. Tony Blair was great at it.

[00:09:52]Margaret Thatcher was great at it. And I think that's the kind of thing that um the Labour Party needs to be looking for. Somebody who understands that uh you have to have a fight in politics.

[00:10:02]You have to have a vision. That's what uh Karma very clearly didn't have.

[00:10:05]>> Okay. I know you are an expert in the history of the Labour party. Um how how many Labor PMs have resigned? I I think there's only one, isn't there?

[00:10:16]>> Oh, this is very mean of you. Uh uh yes, I think that's right. But I probably should have Googled that beforehand, shouldn't I? I'm to be fair on me. I'm a historian of of the more recent Labour party than that was unfair. But that was oddly I I remember it because it was the first time I ever started taking an interest in current affairs and I was 12 and I was on my way home from school and there was a newspaper board that said that Harold Wilson had quit back in 1976. Um, >> and we still don't really >> we don't know why, do we?

[00:10:44]>> Yeah, exactly. We still don't really know why. There's all sorts of theories.

[00:10:47]Uh, everything from sort of um, you know, the kind of intelligence community establishment forced him into it or whatever to he was very unwell secretly.

[00:10:56]Yeah, we still don't know.

[00:10:57]>> Okay. Uh, thank you very much indeed for talking to us. Uh, that's that is Richard Power, a former Labour official and as he says, a historian of the recent history of the Labour Party.