Raised Under Warren Jeffs… Then Chosen by Samuel Bateman | Nomz Interview Pt. 1

Added: 2026-05-21

[00:00:00]in the storehouse didn't feed us enough.

[00:00:02]We were living off potatoes and rice for years and I didn't have shoes. I also remember going almost 3 years with one set of clothing. One dress, one pair of long johns, one just one set of clothing that I would wash every single night.

[00:00:20]I never questioned it before. I was too scared to. I honestly thought that Warren Jeffs could read my thoughts.

[00:00:30]And it was terrifying to question anything that he said.

[00:00:38]>> Hey everyone and welcome back. My name is Sam >> and I'm Melissa.

[00:00:41]>> I was raised in a family with four moms and 35 kids. We were members of the FLDS church which is a polygamous group run by their prophet Warren Jeffs who is now serving a life sentence in prison.

[00:00:51]>> I was raised mainstream LDS in Utah. Sam and I have been married for 11 years and have two awesome kiddos.

[00:00:56]>> Yes, we do. and we are very excited to be joined today with Gnomes from Trust Me the False Prophet documentary. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Gnomes.

[00:01:06]>> Thank you for having me.

[00:01:07]>> We are so excited. We've had so many people in all of our comments be like, "Please get noms on. Please get Nomes on." And always, we love an opportunity to interview and talk to somebody who grew up in the same community that Sam did because it's so crazy how like every family still has different experiences or even people from the same family, right? So it's like you both grew up fls and yet stories can be so completely different and experiences can be so completely different and then also have like so many similarities at the same time. So >> yeah and based on the show that obviously we will get into and have questions about you had a very different experience than I did even though it was based on the same fundamentals and foundation of the FLDS church. So I'm very intrigued to get in and kind of compare our upbringings. So, we will start with how we start basically all of our interviews, which is where did you grow up and how many mothers did you have? That's the first question everybody always wants to know.

[00:02:05]>> That's actually a kind of a tough question for me because um my biological dad was married to two moms. Um, we but we were all separated at a very young age and I grew up mostly with five moms.

[00:02:25]>> Okay.

[00:02:26]>> Okay.

[00:02:26]>> So, was your father kicked out of the community or like what caused the separation with the family?

[00:02:32]>> Um, yeah, my dad was sent away.

[00:02:34]>> Okay.

[00:02:34]>> At what age were you that your dad was sent away?

[00:02:37]>> I think I was 12 or 13. It was right around the whole UOO stuff happening in 2011 2012.

[00:02:47]>> Oh man. Yeah, I heard a lot of stuff went down. I had left the church at that point, but I have heard a lot of things were really getting crazy around that time. Were you close to your dad before he was sent away?

[00:03:00]>> I I don't know. I don't really remember a lot. He worked every day. Um he was kind of close with all the kids.

[00:03:09]And we all he treated us all very equal.

[00:03:13]We were very I would say before my dad went I had a really good childhood.

[00:03:21]>> That's good to hear. Do you remember what you were told being 12 or 13? What were you told about like why your father was sent away? Did they give a reason or was it just like some of the men where it was just like oh well they have a sin and no one even knows what it is? One thing I do appreciate mom about my dad is he didn't just dip out like I found out many of them had. He actually came and talked to us and told us he was leaving. But it was still really hard.

[00:03:51]Um he didn't tell us why he was going.

[00:03:55]He just said that was what the prophet wanted him to do and then he left within 2 days and I didn't see him for 15 years.

[00:04:04]>> Wow. But um later then they read off his sins and what he had done in church after he was gone. And that was very humiliating.

[00:04:19]Remember just wanting to shrink because they're calling out your dad's name and saying all these things that he did supposedly. Um he was um sent away for murder of unborn children and >> oh gosh >> uh there was another one. It was something to do with unconfessed childhood sins.

[00:04:41]>> What?

[00:04:41]>> Oh goodness.

[00:04:42]>> I mean what a copout, right? I mean seriously though, Warren Jeffs is the most infuriating person next to Samuel Baitman.

[00:04:51]>> I actually think he's kind of the bigger monster. He affected more lives. He well he affected more people and he created >> I feel like he created these other monsters, right? Like >> yeah have become the monsters that they were like Samuel Baitman wouldn't have even had the influence and power that he could have gotten without Warren Jeff's >> handbook basically.

[00:05:13]>> I just wanted to make sure that we recognize how big of a monster Samuel Baitman is in the scenario especially talking with you as well. I'll just say this, Sam did worse with a small group of pe with a smaller group, >> but Warren affected more and he even affected me before. Yeah. By sending my dad away, all of this wouldn't have happened if he hadn't have sent my dad away.

[00:05:40]>> That's a very good point.

[00:05:41]>> What were they just like listing off?

[00:05:43]Like it's so odd to me too that they send these men away and then you said it was much later that they're like, "Oh, by the way, let's list off their sins."

[00:05:50]Were they worried that like the men were going to come back and they were just trying to like take another stab at these men to make everyone not trust him or do you know why they >> That's a very interesting question. But I was too I don't know. I didn't really think about like that all the time. At the time I didn't really think like that. I mostly just felt >> like I wished I didn't exist.

[00:06:18]>> Yeah, >> this this is what I saw into the answer that question and gnomes please let me know if you felt the same way. It seemed like they would announce these sins, these, like you said, these supposed sins, uh, over the pulpit or in group meetings as a way to convince the children of these parents that were sent away to not want anything to do with them to try to keep that that separation from the ones that were sent away and the children still left in the church.

[00:06:49]Does that sound familiar? It does sound familiar because it does seem like after he went then they kind of tried pitting his family against him. They told us to delete all the videos and pictures of him. And I remember hiding pictures of him underneath the carpet in my closet >> when the family was throwing away all the pictures of him.

[00:07:13]>> So it's just so sad at such a young age too, especially if you had a good relationship with him. just the the families being torn apart and ripped apart like that is just the worst thing you can do uh to to any child is to rip their parents away from them.

[00:07:29]>> Yeah. And then using the verbiage like the the murdering of the unborn children um one of the first after Sam and I had gotten married I think the first and only letter that we ever got from his mother >> in there now again we're like newlyweds and in the letter it says like please remember to not you know be say don't fall into the sin of murdering of unborn babies. And I was like I looked at Sam and I was like what does she think we're doing out here? Like what do you mean?

[00:08:00]Like what kind of people does she think that we are?

[00:08:04]>> Yeah, that is pretty um I actually don't know the word drastic to accuse someone of >> to accuse somebody of or to say like oh please don't do that. And so >> why not just say abortion?

[00:08:19]>> It's >> Yeah.

[00:08:21]>> And that's what I was going to ask was what were you told what it was? Was it abortion? Because we had also been told that that was like um like having sex without the um intention being procreation because you're like wasting >> I'm putting air quotes for people on podcasting, but like wasting sperm, right? And so we had heard that that might be what they were meaning and I was like I know, right? It's not like a sperm is like a woman's egg. I mean, >> yeah, it's not like there's like one and you're done.

[00:08:52]>> No, it's true. But like that's what we were told. We were told and and this is definitely laugh worthy, too, but and when she said that, I looked at Melissa and I said, "What in the heck does my mother think?" I mean, I know that she thinks I'm evil because I left the church, but come on. But yes, I guess if you're having intercourse after someone's after the woman's already pregnant, that's considering murdering unborn children because you're not able to get pregnant again.

[00:09:17]>> And this is the list that we've heard from like different people because now I've started asking people and this is where I'm coming is I wanted to ask you like what you had been told that was if anything because we've heard that and then we had somebody else tell us that they thought that it was from um masturbation.

[00:09:30]>> Masturbation as well. Yep.

[00:09:31]>> Because again the wasting of the sperm.

[00:09:34]Um, and so we've heard these things.

[00:09:35]What were you told? Murdering of an unborn baby.

[00:09:39]>> Well, that's to be honest, I knew nothing about the male anatomy or how they even looked.

[00:09:48]>> So, in my mind, it was something to do with abortion. And I didn't understand why >> my dad would be guilty of that. And my mom had never done that. It was forbidden in the church. So, she had had she had a few miscarriages and I always thought it was that, but how is that my dad's fault?

[00:10:15]>> And that's heartbreaking, too. Like the fact that anybody would feel like that's anybody's fault, you know, instead of just something so sad and horrible that can just hap, you know, it just happens all the time and it's very common. And so to have any type of like >> guilt or shame associated with that is so >> so wrong and so sad.

[00:10:34]>> Yeah, >> it it was it's kind of >> it put my mom into a spiral and she was never the same after my dad went and then >> a few years later he sent a few of my brothers away and >> it just got worse and worse.

[00:10:52]>> I'm sorry. So, how many children are there in your family? Like from your mother?

[00:10:57]>> From my mom or um even counting my half sibs.

[00:11:02]>> Let's do both. So, how many from your your biological mom and then how many half siblings?

[00:11:08]>> I have. So, my mom had 11. She had 12, but one died of still birth.

[00:11:15]>> Okay.

[00:11:15]>> Um my other mom had 11 as well.

[00:11:20]>> Okay. Yeah, 11 was a popular number.

[00:11:23]>> Yeah, my mom had 12, but uh you know, I guess your mom did as well.

[00:11:28]>> Yeah.

[00:11:28]>> So, yeah, that but yes, 12, 11, 10, right around there seems to be very common among uh the FLDS women. And I think it's just because that's about how many you your body allows you to have >> biologically.

[00:11:42]>> Biologically. I mean, I know some people have more, some people have less, but that seemed to be a pretty common number out there. I mean, according to what I remember, >> I'm not I'm sure not gonna have that many.

[00:11:53]>> Yeah.

[00:11:54]>> Nope. We have two. And he was like, "I'm good." People are like, "Wait, but you grew up with so many siblings. Don't you want like a whole bunch?" And he's like, "It's kind of the opposite. When you grow up with that many, I want like a good relationship with two." Like as many as I can have a super solid relationship.

[00:12:07]>> Yeah. I definitely feel like quality is better than quantity.

[00:12:12]>> Yes.

[00:12:13]>> Yeah. That's that's kind of what I decided as well is I saw how it was in the FLDS in my own family specifically where it just wasn't possible for my dad to be a dad in the sense of what you would consider like oh dad's coming home from work you run up and give him a hug hey dad come play with me right that just wasn't that wasn't possible because he had so many kids and so much responsibility it was almost like he was the ruler of our kingdom and we were to respect him and you I mean, it sounds sad, but it's just the way it was.

[00:12:46]>> Yeah.

[00:12:46]>> Yeah. That's kind of probably why I feel like I never really just knew like my dad as an only kid, you know, >> or even >> I don't really just remember. I do have like a few memories where it was just, you know, like where I got just, you know, daddy time, but um not that much.

[00:13:07]And so I don't all I a lot of my memories of him are him working.

[00:13:13]>> So when your father was sent away, was your mother reassigned like quickly or were you guys like on your own for a little while there? What does that look like? Right after he went, then we were still all together. his two his two ladies like my other mom and my mom we stayed together for about a year but Lyall Jeffs was the caretaker and around after I think it was six or seven months later then um another person became our caretaker and after him was when we were all separated and that was when I went home to live with Liddell's family.

[00:13:59]>> Okay. So, Liddell is your dad's >> He's my cousin.

[00:14:04]>> He's a cousin.

[00:14:05]>> Her cousin.

[00:14:06]>> Okay.

[00:14:07]>> An older cousin.

[00:14:08]>> Okay.

[00:14:09]>> Now, when you were like when your mother's beside and having caretakers, we've tried to explain to our viewers before like how important the term caretaker is. And that might not be the way that people think of it, but like having somebody who's basically your priesthood head and in charge. Were your mothers like being married to them and that's why they became the caretaker or were they just assigned to your family as like a separate priesthood head?

[00:14:33]>> They were definitely not married to them. They were basically just assigned to him.

[00:14:39]>> Okay. and they were supposed to be the father figure of the kids and take on the financial uh pressures and also, you know, food, make sure they're taken care of, which didn't really happen a lot.

[00:14:57]>> Yeah. I I heard that during like United Order, because you said that was the same time that your father was sent away was when the United Order was going on.

[00:15:04]Now, you being 12 or 13, do you remember your interview for the United Order and like what did that look like for you?

[00:15:10]Can you tell us a little bit about that or especially people that have never heard about it, right? So, this happens.

[00:15:15]They announce the United Order and they go and do interviews for the entire community and tell everybody you're either worthy or you're not worthy.

[00:15:23]>> Like man, woman, and child, right?

[00:15:26]>> It was kind of like a weird day. I I remember like the whole town was going through these interviews and we would go and sit in these waiting rooms at the meeting house all day >> and we went for two days and just waited and waited for our turn. And then we walked up to the front of like the room that they were doing the interviews in.

[00:15:49]And there was there was four men standing there and they would hand you a number. And this number they called you was the file ID number. And >> oh my gosh.

[00:16:02]>> So you were you were numbered after that and you didn't really just go by your name so much. You went by your number.

[00:16:08]>> Oh wow. I've never heard this.

[00:16:10]>> United Order.

[00:16:11]>> Was that within the United Order? So if you became if you were worthy to be part of the United Order, then you were numbered.

[00:16:17]>> Yes.

[00:16:18]>> Then you had this number.

[00:16:19]>> Gosh.

[00:16:20]>> And it was a four-digit number.

[00:16:22]>> A fourdigit. I was just going to ask that. I was going to say, did they say how many? Was there like a limit to the number? Because there's other polygamous groups like the Kingston, it's numbered men. Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, there's the 144,000.

[00:16:35]>> Yeah. Those are entirely different meanings. This was um basically um they're just numbering you because there was so many people with the same names. I think that was why.

[00:16:47]>> Oh, wow. So, they just numbered us all and yeah, I still have mine memorized um because we couldn't even get into church without telling them our number.

[00:16:58]>> What was your passcode?

[00:17:00]>> My number was 6480. Yeah.

[00:17:03]>> And that was your your your ticket, your code to get into places and and be to confirm that you actually were found worthy.

[00:17:10]>> Yep. If I when I got when I went into the into the storehouse, then I had to say this number. When I went into church, I had to say this number and they would let you through.

[00:17:20]>> They would look you up on their computers and make sure you were a member. It's funny you haven't heard about this cuz it was a big deal.

[00:17:29]>> The file ID numbers.

[00:17:31]>> I'm trying to think if we've had anybody on that was in the United Order to begin with.

[00:17:38]>> Yeah. because we we've had a lot of people on that were non-members and shared the experiences of and maybe I'll find someone and put the link above, but like of the experience of being a non-member and feeling like that outsider.

[00:17:50]>> I got to try both.

[00:17:52]>> Okay.

[00:17:53]>> Kicked out.

[00:17:54]>> Oh, so you So you had the number and then it got taken away.

[00:17:58]>> Um the number never got taken away. It was just >> they were like denied. 6480 >> eliminated.

[00:18:06]>> Yeah. um me and some of my other uh people that I lived with and yeah, we we got kicked out and >> oh my god, >> we were not members.

[00:18:15]>> Now, when you originally became a member, okay, so you're going through the interview process, they give you a number out of your family and your siblings, how many of you became members and how many of you were non-members?

[00:18:27]Because it seems common that like it it seemed rare. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone where like the entire family was >> a member. It always seems like they split them in weird ways.

[00:18:37]>> It did. Oh, first I was going to like tell you after you got your number, then we waited for more. We waited in another waiting room for a few hours and then you went in and sat with Lyall Jeffs and he he would ask like I think the question he asked me was um do you only think clean and pure thoughts?

[00:18:59]>> Mhm. And at the time, clean and pure thoughts meant, you know, just not not watching the Gentiles and wishing you could be them or whatever. Um, so I I literally remember in my mind thinking, um, how do you not think? How do you only think clean and pure thoughts? Your thoughts just like pop in your brain.

[00:19:24]>> Control those.

[00:19:26]>> It's like not really a choice. Sometimes it especially with my brain. I I I always made up stories and drew and I had a huge imagination as a young child.

[00:19:38]So, and that was very forbidden because of the Joseph Smith's words, a heated and a fanciful and heated imagination just I don't remember the quote, but I remember sitting there wondering how to answer and then finally nodding my head and >> I made it in somehow.

[00:19:59]>> Wow.

[00:20:01]>> Interesting. So, it basically was all determined on whether or not how you answered the question. I think it had a lot to do with what other people said as well. And in our minds, we thought it was because, you know, the prophet was reading our minds and deciding that who was worthy and who wasn't. And so, it was scary. It was very scary to lie and say that you weren't thinking these clean and pure thoughts. It was a scary risk, but I don't I don't know if it was entirely based on that interview. I think that there was several other things with my family.

[00:20:40]>> All of the girls were made members. Very ironic.

[00:20:44]>> Mhm.

[00:20:44]>> And >> Yep.

[00:20:46]>> Only two very young boys.

[00:20:49]>> Okay. So, all the older men were not members.

[00:20:55]>> Yeah. And I had 14 brothers. So, >> And none of them none of the older ones made it in. Huh.

[00:21:03]>> Nope. Wow.

[00:21:05]>> And I since that time of the separation between the members and the non-members was the last time I saw a lot of my brothers in that in the FLDS.

[00:21:19]>> Did your family have to go into separate houses based on membership as well?

[00:21:23]>> It was m it was based on um caretakers and members.

[00:21:29]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:21:30]>> And non-members because we were kind of split up within three different households.

[00:21:37]No, it was five. It was around five cuz I remember one of my brothers living out and in this r at this ranch with um my aunt, another one living in the trailer park with another family. And then some of them lived up in this boy home. And then me and a few of my sisters lived with the byign family.

[00:22:04]>> Okay.

[00:22:05]>> Okay.

[00:22:06]>> Now, were you told like so when they're separating and like you said, some of it's based on membership, some of it's based on gender, some of it's I mean based on so many different things. Did you get sent to your cousin's house and under him as a caretaker because you were a member or did they just did it feel random or did it feel like there was a specific reason why you're over here and the other people are over there?

[00:22:31]>> I honestly didn't really think about it.

[00:22:33]It was too much to think about. I do remember my mom having to sign us off >> and I remember the nights waking up to her and my older sister crying a lot about it all.

[00:22:52]I don't remember just really thinking too much about it except just things like if this is what God wants then I mean if I had thought of anything else then it wouldn't have done me any good.

[00:23:11]>> Yeah.

[00:23:11]>> Yeah. You probably felt lucky, right, to be part of those chosen few that were actually worthy to be members.

[00:23:20]>> It went back and forth a lot. There was some days I was really jealous of the non-members and there was other days that I thought I was more elite. It just it went back it was very conflicting.

[00:23:31]>> Interesting.

[00:23:32]>> What were some of the expectations or like the pressures of being a member that made it so that you would want to wish you were a non-member?

[00:23:41]>> Well, number one, the storehouse didn't feed us enough. We were living off potatoes and rice for years and I didn't have shoes and if I was a non-member I could just purchase some >> and I wouldn't have to live out of the storehouse for everything.

[00:23:59]So then I also remember going almost three years with one set of clothing, one dress, one pair of long johns, one just one set of clothing that I would wash every single night. Oh my word.

[00:24:13]>> So it was almost a punishment to be a member then.

[00:24:16]>> Yeah. I remember I remember the day when I when we became non-members >> and my older sister was really really sober and emotional and and I remember sitting on my bunk bed and being like, "Yes, now we can go buy some Downing and we can actually smell nice.

[00:24:43]You're like, "Sweet freedom. I get to get fabric softener."

[00:24:47]>> Yeah. And then I also remember saying things I remember her saying things like, "Well, how does that make you to feel? How does that make you feel not knowing if you're part of the Lamb's Book of the Book of Life or something like that?"

[00:25:03]>> Um, I don't even remember the phrase, but it was something Warren and Jeff would use a lot.

[00:25:08]>> The Lamb's Book of God or something.

[00:25:11]Basically, it was supposedly this book that had a list of everybody that was worthy and in in the United Order and who was going to be lifted up when the destructions happened.

[00:25:22]>> So, why were you kicked out of the order?

[00:25:26]>> To be perfectly honest, I have no idea.

[00:25:29]>> Okay, that checks out.

[00:25:33]But I really liked it and I never was worthy enough to ever be invited or baptized back into the United or >> How old were you when you got to become a non-member? So you're saying at like 12, 13 you become a member, things are changing and then how old were you when you became a non-member?

[00:25:51]>> I think I was 15.

[00:25:53]>> 15. Okay.

[00:25:53]>> No, I was 16. I was 16.

[00:25:56]>> Okay. And up to this point, so I mean, you've been raised this whole time, your father gets kicked out. There's obviously a lot of like commotion in the community, right? A lot of movement, a lot of change, all that. Was there ever a point like as a kid that you were that you ever questioned it or was it always just I know that it's right and I'm just going to do what they tell me? Was there ever a moment in there?

[00:26:22]>> I never questioned it before. I was too scared to >> I honestly thought that Warren Jeffs could read my thoughts >> and it was terrifying to question anything that he said.

[00:26:36]>> Yeah, I feel you there. That's how I felt too. I felt very much like was in this state of fear all the time that if well number one that if I did anything wrong God would tell the prophet and I would be punished and number two we were constantly taught about the end of times and the great destructions and how we have to be perfectly obedient. And so I was walking around just waiting for something to fall on my head if I wasn't perfect.

[00:27:04]Right. And so I I feel you that it was hard to just to question authority. It was we were so controlled mentally that uh it was I I didn't question honestly I didn't question Warren Jeffs until I had been out of the community. I had left the community and had been out for a couple of months before I came to terms with the fact that Warren Jeffs could be a false prophet. It was that hard. I mean, it was that ingrained in my mind.

[00:27:34]>> Yeah, I definitely remember feeling that. I remember the first time somebody mentioned to me, "It's probably a cult."

[00:27:42]I didn't even know what a cult meant.

[00:27:44]That word was >> so foreign to me. And then I do remember the first time I even questioned Warren, but it was very cautious and I was mostly just really scared >> and I asked my caretaker Liddell some things about him and it didn't it kind of backfired on me and made me even more scared to question.

[00:28:14]>> Yeah.

[00:28:15]So during the time that you were a member before you were then kicked back out and then we'll get on to your story after that, but I'm just curious during those about two years that you were considered this worthy member. Aside from being punished and not allowed to buy things you needed, uh that you had to go to the storehouse for everything.

[00:28:34]So your life was completely controlled in that way as well. But were there any special instructions or anything aside from a number? You know, aside from that, was there anything that made you feel, oh, this I'm kind of special. I get this uh type of information that nobody else is getting >> going to meeting. The non-members didn't get to go to church. That was the only difference.

[00:29:01]>> Okay.

[00:29:02]>> There was that the numbers being separated.

[00:29:06]Nothing that I can not really anything made you just feel super special.

[00:29:13]Okay. So, what was it? Was it in these church meetings that you would go to as a member that they would talk about the wicked deeds of the people that were sent away like you mentioned with your father?

[00:29:23]>> It was in Yep. It was in a United Order meeting when they named off all that.

[00:29:29]And it was very humiliating.

[00:29:32]>> And I I remember even having thoughts of why did God even have me be born to him if he's this wicked person? and wishing I didn't even exist.

[00:29:46]>> Well, one too, I just want to say that yeah, that's heartbreaking that you were at the point where you were feeling like you wish you didn't exist, too, because that obviously like especially at that young age to to be thinking thoughts like that and to get to that place and and feel so out of control in your life is just >> heartbreaking.

[00:30:06]>> Yeah.

[00:30:07]>> Like that's that things had gotten to that point, right? Because like you said, like if you have a good childhood growing up and you have all these things and then it just seems like the community just took such like so many turns like Warren just just turned it in so many ways to just make it the worst possible place so that like nobody could be happy.

[00:30:25]>> Yeah.

[00:30:26]>> It didn't seem like anybody >> and now knowing that those were most likely just lies about your father, right? And so you >> they all were lies.

[00:30:34]>> Yeah. So, you went through all of those emotions and and feelings of dread and doubt and just fear for for nothing. Oh, it just it's infuriating and I'm sorry that you had to deal with that.

[00:30:46]>> Yeah, it is kind of messed up for a a a kid to ever think that they were born from this very evil person. so evil that I don't I do remember having even thoughts about if he's this really bad person, why did God ever have me be born to him?

[00:31:09]>> Yeah.

[00:31:10]>> Yeah. Especially when you feel like like when you grow up where God's in control of everything, right? Through his prophet, he's in control of everything.

[00:31:16]He's he's controlling down to how many dresses you are allowed to have, right?

[00:31:20]So if God is in that much in control, then why would he do that? I can see that feeling even more like a betrayal than what you know other typical Christians or people >> it was like such a huge betrayal but you didn't dare say that. You didn't even dare feel like that was a betrayal. You just accepted it. That's what it was and you were basically this bastard kid.

[00:31:47]>> My gosh. Well, these all of this is good and and helpful information leading up to your mindset and mentality going into obviously what we know you ended up in in the show. So, you were kicked out of the United Order or the the righteous numbered people, whatever you want to call that.

[00:32:10]>> And and so you're kicked out and you're happy. Your sister's upset. And at this point, were you just looking for freedom? Was that your next hope is that uh I can just become more free and uh live a life that maybe I can have some say in and choice choice in the matter.

[00:32:30]>> Um not really because just even being kicked out you we were still very controlled.

[00:32:36]It just meant that you were lower and now you had to work for the people that were elite.

[00:32:43]It didn't change that much. We still had to go and work at what we called the soon restoral storehouse and it was called the SRS.

[00:32:54]And it was even worse. Like I remember days getting up at like 3:00 in the morning and going pulling these 4hour shifts at the storehouse and then going to school and then going to do sewing after. And it was all for the people that were members. And now you just got basically got treated like a slave to the elite.

[00:33:18]>> Oh gosh.

[00:33:19]>> Interesting.

[00:33:20]>> And this is this is when you were under the care of your cousin, right? So you are in his family at this point. What was your experience like being a part of his family?

[00:33:31]>> Like were you excited about that because he was your cousin. Did you know them well or was it like getting >> tossed into a stranger's family?

[00:33:39]>> It was like getting tossed into a stranger's family.

[00:33:42]>> Weirdly, even though they were my cousins and I should have known him, we my dad didn't really just associate with that side of the family. And later we found out why. Um just there was just a lot of of drama. We felt like we were pushed into this family that absolutely did not want us >> and none of us wanted to be there and they didn't want us there and here we are trying to make things work and so it was not a good experience.

[00:34:18]>> How many of your family members became part of his family or were under his care?

[00:34:24]>> I would my mom and I think seven siblings cuz by then a lot of them were leaving and they were like his a lot of my oldest older brothers.

[00:34:39]>> Okay.

[00:34:39]>> Had left at that point.

[00:34:41]>> Yes.

[00:34:42]>> Okay. And then how many members of the f like of his family like how many people were living in a house at a time at that point?

[00:34:50]Um they had around 30 something kids and he had his own little family too. Plus he was a caretaker of his dad's family because his dad my uncle was sent away too.

[00:35:08]>> So I there was five moms and I don't exactly even remember how many kids but I do remember being very packed. That'd be a lot.

[00:35:21]>> And at this time, if I'm not mistaken, during this time was when Warren and Jeffs had put an and when you mentioned uh there were five wives and and a lot of kids. At this point, the men and women were not allowed to have physical relationships. Is that right? Even husbands and wives.

[00:35:38]>> Yes. At that point, there was no children being born. There was no sexual intercourse. It was it's it was really weird.

[00:35:50]>> A really weird time.

[00:35:52]>> I heard that even so much as a hug was not allowed. I mean, it was like husbands and wives were shaking hands.

[00:36:00]>> They were It and it was weird. I remember people saying like, "Oh, yeah, their handshakes are getting a little too cozy." And like judging different people that were leaving and having kids.

[00:36:11]>> Oh my gosh.

[00:36:13]>> So, >> not the handshakes. Not the handshake.

[00:36:15]>> I had a feeling there was some kind of magical touch in in these handshakes that that you would have to find ways to connect. So, I'm sorry, but um uh but yeah, I was wondering. And so, okay, I have a a question. So, there's five.

[00:36:31]Wait, was he considered married to all five of these or were these some of the other women?

[00:36:34]>> It was just the caretakers. I mean, one of them was his mom.

[00:36:38]>> Oh, okay. So, there were there were five.

[00:36:40]>> They were his mom. Yeah, there was just five of them altogether. There was his wife, there was um his three moms, and then there was my mom.

[00:36:48]>> So, he only had one wife.

[00:36:50]>> Yep.

[00:36:51]>> Okay, that makes sense then. I guess this doesn't this doesn't add up. Okay.

[00:36:55]I was going to ask because in my family, my dad had four wives and when it was time to go to work or whatever, you would see him walk out the door and go find each wife and give them a quick quick peck on the lips and and goodbye.

[00:37:07]This was before all of the no touchy >> awkward.

[00:37:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. And so it was like, okay, so you'd see him and it was very normal for me to see him kiss each of the wives and walk out the door and it seemed like it was perfectly normal and natural. I was just curious if it was like the same thing, but but the husband would go and like shake their hands. All right, honey. Uh, see you after work. And shake their hands, you know? I was curious. Do you know if that's what it was like? Uh, I actually don't remember paying attention to it a lot, >> but I do remember like the rumors here and there of other people >> talking about it, but I don't >> I didn't really just watch the parents.

[00:37:46]I mean, for all I cared, I steered clear as much as I could.

[00:37:51]>> I mean, there's just a lot of drama.

[00:37:54]>> Yeah. right >> now. At this point, you're a teenage girl and you've Can you shed a little light on like when they said that there weren't going to be any marriages, no babies. Was that something that felt um like devastating to you because you had been taught of the importance of motherhood or was it something where you were like, "Okay, sweet. I don't have to be married too young." Like what were your emotions? Because I feel like there's this conflicting the conflicting messaging, right, that Warren just did where it's like taught all the girls that the most important thing is motherhood and children and then he took it away which feels like the crulest form of punishment but we've heard from some girls like oh that was a relief and to other people it was like the worst form of punishment >> for me. He actually stopped we they actually stopped having kids around when I was around 13.

[00:38:45]>> Okay. So I I remember having feelings like by the time Warren went to prison, he was he was marrying people as young as 12. So I had been raised feeling like that was the age that you should want to get married.

[00:39:07]>> And then you hit 12, 13, 14. And through those years, I mostly just felt this guilt that it was my fault that he was in prison because that's what we were being raised to believe.

[00:39:20]>> And um we would have kids and I would be married if he was out.

[00:39:27]So I don't remember just really dwelling on like um the devastation of not having kids. I remember mostly feeling this guilt, >> right? and the guilt that if only you and everyone else in the community would pray harder, if you were more worthy, then Warren Jeffs would have the power of breaking. Sorry, this is things these are things I was taught as well. He would have the power to break down the prison walls. If only the community would be more fervent and faithful in him. Same thing for you.

[00:39:57]>> Yeah. And it was a very it was very programmed into me >> to think that way and feel that way.

[00:40:07]I was one of the people that was very traditioned in that. I was very isolated from the outside world.

[00:40:15]That was my reality.

[00:40:17]>> And for him to be in there and it being my fault.

[00:40:22]>> Every little tiny mistake that I made >> that any of the moms or caretaker brought up, then it was just another day in prison for the prophet. then that was on my on me. So there was a lot of guilt.

[00:40:38]>> Could you give some examples of things that you would have considered back then as mistakes? Because I think that's also such a relative term, right? Like depending on where you're raised and what were some things that you know whether you're a member or you're a non-member, what's something that you would end up feeling guilty for that would make you think it was the prophet was in there because of you? I used I had a huge imagination growing up and I would I would draw a lot of these picture stories and I also wrote like handwrite novels in these notebooks when I was supposed to be listening to class and I would just be making up this story and those were considered really really bad. And I remember one of the moms taking away all my notebooks. That was just devastating for me because it was my escape.

[00:41:37]It was how I got out of it all in my mind.

[00:41:41]>> And that was considered a sin, a mistake big enough to be keeping >> really bad. It was it was weird like thinking back now it's like that's a talent and it was actually really >> they were actually really good too.

[00:41:56]So what were they about if I don't if you don't mind me asking as or just like a little bit because I mean if if a mom sees them was it bad because they were writings of your own and therefore like a book looking thing that wasn't a church approved or was it like oh hey this girl goes and kisses this boy and romantic?

[00:42:17]>> They were a lot more um they weren't stupid. They were actually really good stories. There was a few that were funny and now watching some of the Disney cartoons I'm like, "Oh my god, if I like wrote some of those stories that I had as a kid, like that I wrote, I could totally make these animation movies.

[00:42:37]>> They were that good, some of them."

[00:42:40]>> And I I particularly remember these two characters that me and my cousin MueL would would make up. Um, we named them Shabella and Chanela. And we would write >> stories, tons of stories about them. And they were these girls that were um they were so weird and they just did weird things and then they apostatized. And and some people that were in the church saw saw them and I remember one story saying that um one of the twin girls fought it. She didn't want to apostatize and the other one was just fully just like accepted the world.

[00:43:23]>> Okay. Yeah.

[00:43:24]>> And um the bad thing they did was cut their hair and the one that was fighting it then she would do a wave and then we would draw these pictures. They were so they were really hilarious.

[00:43:37]>> She would do like a half wave really tall and then a half bang.

[00:43:44]>> Wow. And then we'd write about some of the other characters would meet them meet them somewhere and they'd be like um paste Adam and they would say there and she would say well at least I'm I'm I'm only half apostasy. I'm like >> I got halfway.

[00:44:03]>> Did you miss my wave? I'm only halfway.

[00:44:06]Come on.

[00:44:07]>> That's amazing.

[00:44:08]>> You should be like you should be blaming Shabella or Chanela more her twin. it.

[00:44:13]Yeah, they were funny some of them and there there were others that were just stories of just random stories of different people and their lives and >> but nothing to do with the FLDS or the priesthood. And I think that that was why it was so bad.

[00:44:32]>> If if only you had been writing things about how much you believed in the church, then that would be okay, right?

[00:44:38]>> Well, yeah. Especially because we'd write these during family class when we were supposed to be taking notes of Warren Jeff's monotonous voice >> and we'd just be back there >> daydreaming. And >> were your family classes as boring as the ones that he tells me about?

[00:44:55]>> I don't remember. I I I genuinely don't remember listening that much.

[00:45:01]>> You were too busy creating halfwaved halfwaved halfbelieving characters.

[00:45:07]That's amazing.

[00:45:08]>> That's that that is amazing though. And it just goes to show your mindset of just, you know, one of the worst things you could possibly do in this world is is take away the wave of the hairdo or cut your hair and just such such innocence, but yet >> conditioned to believe that things like that were the ultimate uh sin that you could be forcing your prophet of God to stay in prison because of things like that.

[00:45:36]>> Yeah. I actually remember a time when one of one of the moms really got after me about it about some of the pictures that I drew. And I remember that night just feeling the guilt of it and feeling like I was going to get spanked or something like that and just thinking of a million of excuses to prove that like they were good or whatever. And I remember the thought going through my mind. At least I drew them all with long sleeves.

[00:46:07]>> Yep. That's a big one.

[00:46:09]>> Yeah, >> that's a big one. I remember the first time I put on a t-shirt and I definitely have questions for you about that as well based on what we saw in the documentary. But first time I put on a t-shirt and shorts, I thought I was I felt naked like it was like whoa.

[00:46:23]>> Yeah, I did too.

[00:46:25]>> Yeah.

[00:46:26]>> Oh man.

[00:46:27]>> So So this is so interesting. So, um, after you were, I guess, forced out of the membership, how long before your cousin, who then was your caretaker, started having these uh, I guess conversations or talking about Samuel Baitman in any way. I'm actually not exactly sure when it all started because I remember later when I was with Sam, I remember him telling me that he knew where my bedroom was when I was 15.

[00:47:06]>> He knew how it was set up.

[00:47:09]So, I have no idea how when Liddell started talking to Sam, but I do remember when I first started seeing it. I was around 18, 19. I was around 19. Yeah.

[00:47:28]>> Did you know of Samuel Baitman? Did you know like who he was in the community or have any kind of relationship with him before this? Mm- I had no knowledge. I feel like um that was one of the reasons why he prayed on me because >> I I even though one of my older brothers worked with him at Newer, he didn't ever talk about him and he left years years before me. So I had no knowledge about him until he started harassing me. Do you know why Liddell your cousin like in the documentary it talks a lot about like Aroni and kind of his connection with Samuel Baitman long before and his feeling guilt and like kind of a little bit more to his story as to how he got involved with Samuel Baitman. But like what was Liddell's connection with him or why would he have felt called to like follow and listen and participate with Samuel Baitman? Do you know?

[00:48:27]>> To be perfectly honest, I actually don't.

[00:48:30]>> Okay. I I just remember the long meetings that Sam would have with him >> for around two years before he >> joined his little cult in a cult.

[00:48:43]>> Wow. Okay. So, he was having meetings for a long time.

[00:48:47]>> Yeah. And then um Lud started um Lud, which is Liddell. Um we called him Lud.

[00:48:54]He started his classes started getting longer and longer and more monotonous and more boring.

[00:49:00]and he would always talk about these experiences with this dear friend of his which was we found out later on that it was Sam Baitman.

[00:49:11]>> Okay. Did he give any insight into those experiences or what type of experiences they were? Um I just remember um one time when he talked about how his friend was going through these deep temptations against Warren Jeffs and how um there was a time where he went and put his face in the dirt and prayed and prayed and prayed and somehow had this revelation that told him that Warren Jeffs was the true God. I mean true prophet of God. And it was it was really strange.

[00:49:47]>> I remember him talking about that and it was this Yeah, the story was about Sam.

[00:49:53]He went and put his face in the dirt when he was doubting where it >> I mean he seemed to like he seemed to like the dirt. Well, I have more questions about that later on. Sorry. You you are going to say something.

[00:50:07]>> I don't know if I can say a serious question after that. I don't know where to go from there.

[00:50:11]>> I'm sorry. Maybe I'm finding too much too much.

[00:50:13]>> Hey, sometimes you have to laugh about things so you don't cry about them, right?

[00:50:16]>> Some of it was comical and I it was it was such a serious and sad show to watch, but man, it was hard to keep serious. And some of the some of the things that Samuel Baitman would do, I I couldn't help but laugh out loud. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.

[00:50:33]>> So, anyway, I I don't mean to make fun of the situation.

[00:50:37]>> It's like that with me. It's it whenever I when I remove myself from that and realize like I'm not under his threat anymore >> and I I see some of those videos of him running in the rocks and stuff and then I remember tons of other stories about that >> and it's it is quite comical and I'll get with some of the other girls like especially with Muel and we'll talk about some of it and just laugh and laugh and and talk about how how did we ever think he had any power over us, >> but he did at the time. I'm just really glad that >> we got out of it now.

[00:51:20]>> Oh, yes.

[00:51:21]>> Yeah, definitely. So, my question was going to be, did Lud really believe that um Warren was dead? Because that's something that we hear that Samuel Baitman was telling everyone that Warren had died. Was that something that like helped bring Lud like closer to Samuel Baitman? Like did he really believe that Warren was dead and that everybody else was lying about it?

[00:51:46]>> He didn't ever really say he was dead.

[00:51:48]He said that he was translated, which basically does mean they were dead, but it was just harder to explain >> to say, oh yeah, he was saying he was translated. And he would tell us he's never in that cell. It's just a mummy or a mannequin that they have in that cell and he's been translated and he goes to different parts of the world and there's more people he's working with and when we're worthy enough then would get to meet him whatever it was. But yeah, it was all around it was he had him completely he had sorry Sam had Lud completely convinced that he was translated. Warren Jeffs was translated.

[00:52:34]>> So I wanted to just speak to that really quick. It's not surprising that he could have first of all Samuel Baitman could have come up with that idea and second of all that people would believe it because in some of these revelations coming from Warren Jeff supposedly or or his son is it Helimman >> but who knows what's what. supposedly coming from Warren Jeffs where he would say everybody needs to prepare to meet me or meet Warren Jeffs in such and such place because he will I guess have the ability to go and be in other places even though like you said and Samuel Baitman was saying his body or what looks like his body is still in the prison cell. So it's actually not surprising that people could believe that and maybe where Samuel Bait Baitman got the idea from is the these revelations >> maybe um he was very against Helimman's what Helimman was doing. I remember there was even a time when somehow Mikuela got a message from Helimman and she showed him this letter and he just mocked it and made fun of it and then had us all laugh at it. And so I don't know if he was getting that from Halean.

[00:53:46]>> I think it was it was kind of looking back it kind of feels like it was a little bit of a competition. I can I can see that. I can see that. So So you you going back to where we were here. Uh Lud, your caretaker, your cousin is talking a lot about Samuel Baitman and the the meetings or lessons that Lud was preaching to you in the family were bringing Samuel Baitman into the conversation more and more. At what point did because you said that Samuel Baitman began to harass you. At what point did Samuel Baitman show his face?

[00:54:27]>> When Blood introduced me to him, but when he first introduced me to him, then Sam only had two wives at the time. The first two of Moroni's daughters.

[00:54:39]>> Samuel Baitman had a wife that left him.

[00:54:42]Is that right? Because >> that was before.

[00:54:44]>> Yeah, he did. Yeah, he definitely did have a wife that had left him because he was um talking about marrying his daughter.

[00:54:53]Yeah.

[00:54:53]>> Yes. That's right. Yes.

[00:54:55]>> So, these were the first two of Moroni Johnson's daughters, the first two to be given to him as wives.

[00:55:01]>> Yeah.

[00:55:02]>> After his divorce and everything, right?

[00:55:04]>> After the divorce of his first wife.

[00:55:07]>> Okay.

[00:55:07]>> Then L introduced me to him. It was really late at night. It was I think it was in 2019 19. Yeah. No, 2018.

[00:55:20]2019 when it all first started and blood introduced me to him a few days later.

[00:55:31]Then Sam called me and told me that I belonged in his family. I was his wife and and if I fought it then I was fighting against God and I should get on my knees and and get a testimony of this. It's infuriating because these people that uh like Samuel Baitman that are these cult leaders or people that convince people to follow them often use prayer to to say, "Hey, this is true. I know it's true. I received my testimony and if you go and pray about it, I know you'll receive a testimony about it, too. So, you need to go receive your own testimony."

[00:56:10]>> And they would and they would also say like, "You should receive a testimony about this. this is what your testimony should be. And if it's not this, then you're not listening to God.

[00:56:20]>> Exactly.

[00:56:20]>> Then you need to pray harder, right? Do it this way. Do it exactly like this.

[00:56:24]And then you'll feel this. And if you don't, something's wrong with you. Go try again until you get it.

[00:56:29]>> Even though you never get it.

[00:56:31]>> Like for me, I never got it.

[00:56:33]>> Oh, you didn't? Okay.

[00:56:34]>> And I never understood why I didn't. So I'd make up that I did.

[00:56:38]>> Okay. So why do you think I guess I don't know if he even mentioned it. Did Lud ever tell you why why he wanted to introduce you or why he encouraged you to be a part of this? Is it because he actually believed Samuel Baitman was a prophet?

[00:56:55]>> Apparently he did, but he never really explained to me why.

[00:57:01]>> Not in the moment. He was just he just said, "I need you to pray really hard about this. There's somebody that you should meet." And then after I met him, then Sam started telling me that I belonged to him. And I held out for over a year.

[00:57:19]And he the the texts he would send to me and he would send me the most threatening mean texts and and then tell me not to tell my family.

[00:57:35]M >> threatening and mean in what way? That if you don't join then things would happen to you.

[00:57:42]>> Yeah, he would say like all the stuff that God was going to do to me. And then there was a time one of the women got really sick and she was in the hospital and he called me and told me that her life was at risk and it was all my fault and because I wasn't obedient and the whole entire family was um like it was just my fault. all these other bad things that were happening in their family. And it was around the time he had his first baby with Moroni's daughter. And he would say that this little girl suffering, she had this really bad hernia. And he told me that it was all my fault. And the more he would bring up these horrendous things, the more I felt just evil.

[00:58:42]>> Like I was I was hurting these people.

[00:58:46]And then in the in the space of like over a year or I think it was 14 to 18 months then he he got 10 more ladies and a lot of the underage girls as well. And then he started having them call me every day and tell me all the evil stuff that I was doing because I wouldn't marry him.

[00:59:16]Wow.

[00:59:16]>> Were any of those other girls members of your family or like uh like any of your sisters or anything at that point >> through the entire situation?

[00:59:28]Not one of my f none of my family had to do with Sam.

[00:59:33]>> Oh, okay.

[00:59:34]>> I was curious about that whether or not and like did your mother know what was going on or like was she seeing what was going on? How did she know about that?

[00:59:43]No, Sam. Um, Sam told me not to tell her.

[00:59:48]And I I didn't for a long time until it got more and more pressure, more threats, more things that were happening that were just really bad and that were supposedly my fault. Then I finally told my mom.

[01:00:05]>> I'm very curious to hear about what your mom had to say uh about it, you know.

[01:00:10]So, so you you finally worked up the courage even though you were probably threatened that if you told her bad things would happen.

[01:00:19]What how did that conversation go?

[01:00:22]>> He was threatening my mom at this point because I wouldn't go. And then he started saying things about my mom belonging to him and my little sister.

[01:00:33]>> She was 13.

[01:00:34]>> And I think that was when I when I finally caved. I couldn't couldn't take it anymore. And while I was being taken to Lincoln, Nebraska, because he lived in Lincoln, Nebraska, when I was handed over to him, then I deleted all of my family's contacts.

[01:00:58]>> Were you worried that or did you feel like you giving yourself to him was a way to protect the rest of your family?

[01:01:05]>> At first, that is what I thought. And the deeper I got into it, the more brainwashing and control he took over me, then the more loyal I became to him. And like I feel like he actually broke us down and then started rebuilding into what he wanted us to be.

[01:01:28]>> But >> wow. I still look back and don't understand and like and I'm I'm really grateful and really proud of myself for not getting my family involved even though he he would he really put a lot of pressure on me to recruit my younger sister and bring her to him and that was where I drew the line and I just never let that happen.

[01:01:55]>> Good for you. That that's really good and amazing that he didn't have enough control over you to get more of your loved ones involved. And this this actually seems to be a common thread amongst these closed off cults that we uh talk about and review and interview people from is that >> they're willing to put themselves through whatever it is to protect their loved ones, but once their loved ones are brought in or involved, that's when it snaps them out of it because they can't bear to see other ones or other people from their family treated that way. So, um but I'm very proud of you to stand strong and say, "No, I'm not doing that. that I'm not involving my family.

[01:02:36]>> Oh, I never said that to him, though. I would just um like I remember him writing up these huge paragraphs and telling me to send them to my mom for my younger sister and then I would block her number and then send them and then unblock her and then just hope that they didn't get to her. I didn't know if that worked or not, but Apparently it did because she never saw those messages and then when he would look at my phone then he would see that I was obedient.

[01:03:11]>> You had sent >> and I sent the messages.

[01:03:14]>> Interesting. Wow.

[01:03:16]>> How did your mom did your mom what was your mom's reaction when you were taken to go be with him? Did she say anything?

[01:03:23]like >> she just started crying, asked me if I was going to come back to her and I was crying. I I don't I didn't cry at the time. I remember just feeling numb and just stiff as a board and telling her I I don't I said, "Yes, I'll be back, but I don't know when." And then I told her, "I'm doing this for you.