AAP’s Rise & Fall: Ashutosh & Mani Shankar on Arvind Kejriwal Corruption & Political Betrayal| Ep 34

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[00:00:00]Namaskar.

[00:00:01]In this edition of Mani Kibbad Sunnit Quesad, we have Ashotosh of Satyi Hindi who was Arvind Krial's closest left tenant till their falling out. So my first question to Ashto is what made you fall out with Arvin Kiwal?

[00:00:23]Thank you so much for inviting me to your uh this uh podcast and uh I had basically I had never spoken about this that why did I leave Amadi party. I can only answer this is uh uh I had joined Amadi party and Arvind Kjal with the stars in my eyes and I thought like a like an idiot that the world is going to change. The revolution is there. So why not uh join the revolution and uh uh let's see how the world can change, how India can change because there was too many questions which needed to be answered like corruption and everything.

[00:00:58]Uh so I joined that uh at that point of time the party we are not here to do politics but to change politics. over a period of time I realized that uh that somewhere down the line Ahmadi party is also leaving the path of revolution and it's going somewhere else and uh then I started finding myself little uneasy uh little uncomfortable and also started feeling little left out and suffocated and uh then while discussing things with my family with my in-laws with my wife and uh when I realized that it's not the politics I wanted to it's not this kind of politics I wanted to do otherwise I would have gone to some other established political parties and I would have made a career out of it and when I realized this then I took almost 6 7 8 months uh to to leave at that point of time I was working on my sec on my book that is Hindu raashtra about Narend Modi's uh term from 2014 to 2019 so the day I finished my my manuscript about the book I submitted my resignation and I said enough is enough and I told my my family and everybody and they said good riddance. I think you are not made for politics. You got you are too thin skinned and you needed to be a very thick skinned person. So don't uh be there if you are not liking it. So I did not leave party. I left politics.

[00:02:23]>> So but Ash you were not the only one who was tyed. We me and my daughter we were so thrilled. We went to Ramla ground for Kjiwal swearing in and we screamed Panchal Kjal you know we were so happy to see this breath of fresh air coming into politics. So we were with you there but >> I know I I met I met him in at uh Krial's home at one point of timeh and uh he told me that uh how you were so much in love with the whole concept of Amadi party and Krial >> but I have to plead guilty here okay [laughter] because Ravi Shanka Prashad of the PJP and I were on a TV program organized by India Today with Advin Kiwal and I mocked Kiwal saying to him what is the point of your being in civil society you'll not be able to change anything >> if you want to effect change you better come into politics so in many ways I'm afraid I was responsible [laughter] for Kriwal giving up his noble civil society activity and becoming a politician.

[00:03:46]>> But he was so grateful for this advice or at any [clears throat] rate for my being kind to him while being a prominent part member then of the Congress party that he invited me to dinner.

[00:04:01]>> Okay.

[00:04:02]>> And the only other person invited apart from Sunni >> was you.

[00:04:06]>> I know.

[00:04:07]>> Now when we got there I was astonished.

[00:04:12]I was stunned and I was totally impressed >> because here was a chief minister with a massive majority behind him.

[00:04:21]>> I think he had more than 3/4 of the world.

[00:04:23]>> 67 out of 70.

[00:04:25]>> But there you are. It's about 90%.

[00:04:27]>> And what was the furniture in his home?

[00:04:31]>> There was next to nothing.

[00:04:34]>> He was lying or half lying on a Dan. you were there and then Sun and I found ourselves some chairs to sit in and dinner was cooked by his wife >> and when we went in she didn't sit with us >> she served all of us and I said that this is what Gandhi G's sabharmati ashra must have looked like and now I find that the man has become symbolized by the sahel so how has this transformation occurred >> [sighs and panting] >> I wish he's listening to what you you said and what high hopes people have with him. If uh somebody who has been in politics for so long and had seen the word in and out if he was so impressed with Arvin Kal at that point of time when he was a chief minister I think it's a fall for him it's fall for a dream it's a death of a dream in that sense uh frankly speaking when I was a ghast when I got to know that uh he has a bangalow like shishahel the word used by media is shishel but the kind of information the kind of pictures the kind of videos were out I I never believed it because Arvin Kajal I knew was not this Arvind Khal I knew him before he joined politics before he formed the political party and we were like good friends he used to come to my office when I when I as a managing editor and we used to talk a lot and in fact uh when Ana movement was happening when then I was there and uh when Ana movement passed and there was a thought within the movement itself that let's form a political party so there were two opinions so one of the afternoon I got a call from him and I said we are sitting in Kosami office why don't you come over here we have to discuss something very serious. So I went over there and uh the the discussion was that should we form a political party or should we not a form of political party and you were very right. It's like see something like this like a very uh civil society activist kind of a thing working in a very meager amount of money. So my opinion was that and I was firmly believed that this moment will wither away if it is not encast into some political party and the people are looking for a change. So in a way I am also being guilty for this but I strongly advocated that a political party should be formed. There's a lot of goodwill for this movement and you know he very innocently asked key uh why people will will vote for us. I'm no I'm no big big shake and Anah Hazar is not there. So if Ana Hazar decided decides to uh to lead this political party then we had some hope. But in his absence what will I do? People don't recognize me. I have no social base and the people will not vote for me. So that was a innocence. It it is it is a innocence in him. And then I I argued and then I said look the entire Ana moment if Arvin if Anahare was the face you were uh the the pivot of that that moment and people do recognize across the country that you are number two after Anazare. So it's not that you lack visibility you have a visibility. uh the only thing is how can we uh we we move forward from here. So that was the argument we have and uh but uh the innocent person I knew the the whole family I knew I interacted very closely with him but this Arvindal frankly speaking I'm I don't recognize in fact when I left Amhadi party and I had gone and met Prashant Bushanji and I said uh sorry because during the moment there were lot of arguments where used to happen and and I I felt that I should say sorry to him because at some point of time I must have said something to him which must have affected him or he must have felt sorry about it. So he said key Ashtosh you know I know him much longer than you knew you you know him but even I failed to understand and that I don't recognize this man now. So uh frankly speaking I have no answer that how the transformation has taken place. What was the reason? What was the trigger and why somebody who was was used to move in Hawaii chapal and a fatwa korta and pajama and shirts uh suddenly transformed into such a person.

[00:08:38]you see the uh I think the problem is that there was no apart from anti-corruption or rai there was no uh ideology uh on which the party was founded. So the volunteers and the youngsters and the fresh faces who joined him also had no ideology. All our parties whether it's uh in the north or the south stalin manta congress dominated by one uh leader one personality and everything all decisions everything is uh taken care of by that one personality so kwhal being the dominant figure is the nature of politics in India but the other parties uh whether it's the congress whether it's uh the communists whether it's the dravidian parties They have an ideology and they adhere to it and whether they win or lose look at the communists now they're also slated to lose Kerala there'll be no state run by the communist but nobody uh is anticipating defections from the CPI CPIM to the Congress or to the uh MTA or to Modi nobody's anticipate they are stuck with the ideology the problem of the Congress also is that the ideologies become blurred but at least it is there somewhere.

[00:10:02]>> There is a there is a ideology >> but Kwal never formulated an ideology and that is why it was very easy to for people who came with goodwill to fall away. Do would you agree with that?

[00:10:15]>> I I I I agree with you completely. In fact when we we joined then uh even Ana moment if you look at there were very strong uh strands of uh to create an ideology around it like he was talking about transparency he was talking about about democracy he was talking about uh the the the formulation the the policym process should be within with consultation of the people he was talking about openness so in fact within the liberal framework there was a very strong argument that this liberal framework needed to be more liberal, more transparent, more democratic and the involvement of the people should be much more than what it is. In his opinion, the entire liberal framework had become very opaque very uh so where the people's voice was not there. So in fact you remember when the first time when the committee was formed between the government and the for the loal bill then he came out and he said that entire procedure should should be uh stream livereamed. So everybody thought what nonsense he's talking about. It's not that there was no ideology. The issue is uh I think uh uh like a like a vis he was he wasn't a visionary in that sense uh who could who could uh understand that that the need that things needed to be put in a particular framework and that should create a kind of an attraction for the other people.

[00:11:34]>> By he do you mean or because party was was formed by him. Anazari was nowhere to be seen. uh in the light of that I want to ask why is it that some of the founders remained >> people like uh Manishia Artishi they've remained they appear to me till today to be very good decent human beings and yet many left not just you >> there was yogiad >> there was >> and now we have ra the most unexpected is the departure of Raghav Chandra.

[00:12:16]>> Now what made some leave and some remain. What is the distinction these groups?

[00:12:22]>> Uh the first generation who started Amadi party with Arvin Khrial and uh I can call them the first generation leaders in Amadi party. uh they were at par with him and they had uh they had idealism uh in his eyes and they wanted to really change the world whether Prashand Bushan, Yugendra Yadavo or lot of many many people had left and uh but over a period of time when they realized that the party is turning from idealism to pure power politics >> and uh so and to remain in power uh when they realize that uh the leadership wanted to do anything and everything and in fact the 200 15 when the Amadi party was contesting election that the whole struggle between Prashant Mushan Yogend Rad and Arvin Khal at the time I was with Arvin Khal and so the the whole argument was this that that the promises we made and the that the candidate should be good no corruption charges nothing else something don't compromise on that we should not be be be seen to be to be doing all kinds of thing to win elections so those the and that was the time where I think Amadi party started feeling little threatened because of the invincibility of Mr. in Narendra Modi and uh it there was a thought in the party that if we don't come to power in Delhi then the Amadi party will disappear because uh it will be difficult for us to survive in a position because we have no institutional memory we have nothing like like like that so so we we made certain compromises in terms of candidate selection and uh with that steps uh with that kind of compromises yeah our adjustment whatever you say Prashant Yogendra they were very upset and the whole struggle continued they but after once he got 67 out of 70 then uh he was they were thrown out of the party. Uh the later what happened uh that entire uh party became uh uh uh revolving around one one person and uh like there was no system in the party there was no structure in the party there were only people and only one who mattered is Arvin Keshwal. So a a new party uh which uh I think in my opinion has been appropriated by politics itself and whatever what was was there to capture power to win elections became the single motive the come what may we have to be in power we have to be we have to form the government in Delhi I think that is where the the problem started with the party >> but you have a lot of oddballs too >> I mean if I may give two examples and I hope I'll be forgiven Somnat Bharti this man who's the chief minister of Punjab Mr. man.

[00:15:05]>> What were these oddballs doing among serious highly moral individuals like yourself, like Prashand Bushan, like Yogendra Yadada? What kind of heterogeneity was there in the Amhad Bi party?

[00:15:23]>> See, but in fact, frankly speaking, the the public perception about Somat Barti and Bhagwat Man uh is not very good. But probably they are the better people in the in the organization. Samad Bharti is an itian and he is a very idealist person still and he's very popular in his own constituency but public perception about him is very very different and altogether. Bhagat man again uh is is a great is a great artist he's a humorist and uh who had drifted into the politics and he's extremely popular in in uh in in Punjab. uh the see the issue was uh that like Congress party it struggled for so long and uh it had it was uh blessed with the leadership of Gandhi and Nehu Sardhar Patel and everything it has a great legacy behind uh there was an institutional memory. The problem with this party was that the those who were leading the party did not have a sense of history did not have a wisdom.

[00:16:18]Otherwise the kind of goodwill which they had in 2013 14 15 if they had worked collectively if they had moved collectively probably by now they would have been a a very strong alternative at the center and in fact people used to talk about it that they are going to replace Congress party but because of the lack of the vision and some great sense of insecurity and that whole party became just one individual party and that is where many people left getting disillusioned by what was happening in the party. If you're talking about the democracy, you're talking about the transparency and here there is no democracy. If anybody who disagrees with the leadership, that means Arvin Kjal is either marginalized or thrown out of the party. So that was the the main reason if they had a vision see I you disagree with the RSS but RSS has an ideology.

[00:17:02]>> Yes, >> there is certain utopia which they want to change and for that they want to make any sacrifice. So the like in people in RSS they are not married for the whole life. So it's not an ordinary thing. We disagree with them, we criticize them, we don't like them. But the fact is in this party uh they did not know how to move. So probably they were too flumx by um by by the power.

[00:17:25]>> So it was victory they defeated them.

[00:17:27]Yes. Yes. I think you put it rightly. I think uh what damaged them most is getting 67 seat out of 70 >> and then the power went into their head and they didn't know how to control.

[00:17:37]It's like I call it a Vinod Kami syndrome. a great batsman more talented than Sachin Tendulkar we got two backto-back double centuries and finally he's he's nowhere because he couldn't handle the success so the Amadi party and Arvindal is also a kind of a that where they couldn't handle the the success so much >> so I have a very beautiful quote on that on this theme by a political analyst we met in Jaipur recently Akil Chadri he he's written up stands out as a party stuck in no man's stand >> wherein its stand depends on the general mood of the country. So the mood of the country at that time was uh anti uh anti-corruption. Yeah. I went to that ground zero they called it at Jant Mant where the whole movement started and there were young men marching just ad hoc young men marching up and down saying brush things like that that was the mood of the nation. But to sustain a political party, you have to have more than this kind of uh uh just popular yielding to popular sentiment and nothing else that anything else was lacking as you say there was nothing there. I think there's another reason for this deterioration.

[00:19:00]When Arvin Kiwal got as you said 67 out of 70 seats, the arrogance in his mind led him to believe that he was the next Gandhi.

[00:19:12]>> That everywhere in the in the country he would have a similar kind of influence.

[00:19:18]He didn't realize that he must limit his reach to his grasp.

[00:19:25]>> That if he exceeded that then it would it would lead to mindless expansion and not the consolidation of the party. And from there there was so much ambition that we got into this very doubtful area of the excise policy. And although at one level the courts have exonerated him, the case is still on. Nevertheless, he was doing crowdfunding and that was one of the most attractive things about him. Just like Gandhi G's Charana membership made the Congress such a grassroots organization in the 1920s.

[00:20:10]Is it that ambition needed to be funded by money and therefore he found that he couldn't realize his ambition without having a much larger treasury than he had? See, I think the public perception that he's too ambitious. Yes, I understand he's too ambitious. There's no no doubt about it. Uh but in the beginning, I remember very very clearly that uh he wasn't for the expansion.

[00:20:39]uh his idea was in fact uh uh a section of the Amadi party was was thinking and uh they wanted to plan that there is too much goodwill for this for the Amadi party and for the Jaru and Arvin Khal that we should expand and and it was because of the struggle between these two ideas that in 2014 if you remember Amadi party contested more than 400 seats but it wasn't originally his brainchild it was a brainchild of Yogendra and others other and others others others.

[00:21:11]>> So it's not that he was his idea was that let's make Delhi as a model state >> and once people see this model state that this country that if if we could change Delhi then that can be replicable and it is replicable in other states then the the natural there will be natural attraction for Amadi party. I don't know whether this was an utopian idea or not but certainly I was in favor that the party should expand because there is a goodwill and you never know when this goodwill suddenly disappears.

[00:21:43]So uh you as a I I never said this in as many words but I believe that he uh when he stuck with the chief minister's chair chair and uh I think that was the mistake he made. If he had given that chair to somebody else and would have guided him or her to to do certain things how the things should be done and he he has moved around the country uh then probably the things would have been very different but what happened and what stuck him is that once he was a chief minister then somewhere uh he could get out of that that that that chair and that is where I say as as as is normally said the power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely so he was so much stuck by that power that he couldn't get out of it and finally that it is the power which has uh >> on the other hand I must credit him with this his administrative innovations and the team of people he built up to implement those uh ideal those ideas those new ideas and what he did with schools in Delhi making people in Delhi poor people in Delhi actually prefer to go to a government school rather than in a private school. What he did with mahala clinics, >> what he did with water meters, >> what he did with rubbish dumps, >> what he did with slum redevelopment.

[00:23:07]All this was so innovative that maybe he would have been better positioned as the mayor of Delhi rather than the chief minister of Delhi.

[00:23:17]>> Because these are all administrative governance issues.

[00:23:20]>> Yeah. These are issues that no other party has been able to tackle. We see the shiv sena very dominant in the Mumbai real Mumbai corporation.

[00:23:31]>> But they're not doing all this. What kriwal and his boys and girls did in Delhi was a miracle of local self-government >> that helped them win Punjab, you know.

[00:23:44]But but there's other greater issues.

[00:23:47]his attitude towards the minorities when he first came to power. It was because the minorities supported him wholeheartedly. But what did he do to them? Those his attitude towards those accused rightly or wrongly uh of fermenting the Delhi riots when Trump had not Trump who Trump Trump had come right Trump and all that. He just abandoned his people. Yes. He didn't stand by one guy who his name is Kates who's still in jail. Uh >> Tahir >> sorry >> Tahir Hussein >> Tahin that's right the FIR is very vague and that fellow he's still in jail I think so many years not a word out of Mr. Krial, how can you do that? These people, the minorities were looking for an anchor. They were looking for a safe home uh under the leadership of a man who felt for them. And they thought Kriwal was the man of the moment for them. But he just dumped them. Why?

[00:24:52]>> Because uh you know >> he wanted greedy for the Hindu vote. But that's all going to we know who >> that is the logic of politics. If you wanted to remain in politics, you wanted to remain the chief minister and you do not have an ideological background like Congress is all said and that has an ideology and beyond the point it cannot compromise. Like if Congress cannot afford to do a hindutwa politics if it does it's it's gone like BJP cannot be a secular party. If it does then it dead the Amadi party problem there was no no ideological framework since there was no ideological framework. So the the whole politics was designed for him to grab power. But earlier he was the symbol of morality in politics. He was a man of personal integrity. His party was a party of party integrity.

[00:25:44]>> He indulged in very modest funding.

[00:25:47]There was no ostentation at all. Simple living symbolized by ministers taking the metro to be sworn in.

[00:25:59]>> When was all that abandoned? When was morality in politics which was his strongest suit?

[00:26:06]>> When did he abandon it?

[00:26:10]>> As I say, I am >> when it suited him. Uh I I I I see he was such he became such a great leader such a great idea because he used to challenge power when he was hijacked by the power then the whole aura gone. So if you have to you know that if if I say this thing because earlier he whatever he felt right whatever he thought that this is on the right side of the morality and he never used to feel if I say something I will lose something then he was the darling of the masses. Once you start thinking or if I say something about the Muslim the Muslim motors will will leave us. If I say something about about Hindu the Hindu motors will leave leave us. then the uh you are neither here nor there.

[00:26:56]So I I distinctly remember and the people used to bl people used to accuse still that ana moment was created by by uh by RSS and I always say no and moment was not created by by RSS. Uh leadership was with with aid with with uh secular people like Prashan Bushan and Arvin Kjal and others. Uh yes they participated they wanted to exploit it for their own political purposes. So in my entire conversation of 4 and a half years, I had never find even one example when I could sense that this manu has some communal bone in his body or this man is uh is created by RSS and not once um uh I'm it is almost 8 years I left Amadi party but still I I I vouch for that. But when in Gujarat when he started say economy will be much better if you put Laxmi Ganeshi Tasmir on the currency notes and when he started going to Hanuman temple and he started not talking about the Muslim issues when the royal >> tell me just one thing was he a great Hanuman bh earlier >> no >> it was only suddenly >> yes yes >> so it was a political move >> yes it was a political move and in fact I can I can say that he wasn't a very religious person per se in my entire interaction I had Never never seen him having having any kind of urge to to go to some temple or here and there like a normal person must uh but he did go for vipasa no vipasa yes you >> that's not a religious thing that is internal introspection actually that's all so you understand yourself and what's happening around you better >> that is also a that was that's also a way to handle his diabetic issue >> because he he's a diabetic and when he the sugar uh keep shooting up and down.

[00:28:42]I think so it it used to help him to to deal with that.

[00:28:45]>> I I think we've now arrived at the stage >> where we might ask what is the future of the aradmi party?

[00:28:54]>> Is there any hope of the arhadmi party reacquiring its old shine if a keshiwal gets replaced by somebody like Atishi?

[00:29:10]See uh uh as a political party Amadi party will exist but as an idea Amadi party is gone. Amadi party was an idea which used to galvanize people. He thinks that Amadi party was name of a hope a dream that dream is gone. That hope is gone. There is a now there exist a political party which is in the which is which is contesting elections to win power to become chief minister to become prime minister to become minister MPs and MLAs. Second thing is this party will not exist if Arvind Kajrial is not there because whether you like him whether you don't like him but this man has some some genius bone in him who always thinks out of the box who is always unorthodox like which leader will have guts to stand up and and tell to the court that me lord uh I will not appear before you it's something like that uh and and then judge But it's like you're basically defying the whole whole judicial process. You're defying the whole constitutional framework in that sense. Like everybody is talking about the judiciary has problems. Judiciary seems to be a little bit compromised. Even the senior most judges in the Supreme Court and the high court there are serious question mark about them. Everybody's talking about it. You go to you go to anywhere people will talk about it. But who has got the guts to say me lord I will not appear before you because I don't think you will I will get justice. So he has that unorthodox thinking out of the box thinking that is what makes him relevant in even today. My understanding is that uh whether Amadi party will will survive depends on if they could win or lose Punjab elections. If they lose Punjab elections like assembly election in 2027 then uh there will be serious very very serious crisis. And in his absence I'm absolutely clear nobody can uh can run the party. Nobody. You said that the Ahmadi party originally was a dream.

[00:31:10]>> It was a dream.

[00:31:11]>> Now I think Sunn wants to say something.

[00:31:15][laughter] Her song of lament about what has happened to that dream.

[00:31:20]>> Dream.

[00:31:20]>> So let me pass the floor on to her.

[00:31:22]>> It's more than a song though I've called it the sad sad song of Sun. It's a durge. It's a durge. So here we go. I'm a hardcore optimist. For me, the glass is always half full. It's never never half empty. Forever half full. That's me. But this year has been a nightmare as my dreams and hopes for our wonderful nation lies shattered like a broken bottle of jin with nothing left to offer, no joyous cheer, no no drink to liven the evening, only sharp pieces of glass. You dare not tread on. That is what I see today happening around me. Gone is the Kiwal inspired dream. Oh, what a dream that was. That an ordinary well-educated middleclass guy or girl like you or me or any of us could be in a could in a matter of a few weeks create a formidable political party with crowdfunding and young volunteers and nothing much else. No slum dog type furnace of a background to propel him upwards. No hardcore political background of family to uh give him a push. Just an ordinary person like me and my shadow who had no personal agenda but a real knight in shining armor fired with the desire to work for the public good. All that is sadly over now.

[00:33:01]BJP [laughter] wonderful.

[00:33:07]So on that note, [laughter] [laughter] let me say namaskar.