INSIEME AO VIVO | OAB/PR debate cidadania italiana sob a ótica do Direito Migratório

追加: 2026-05-27

[00:00:20]Well, today, May 22, 2026, the Brazilian Bar Association has been frequently invoked in debates involving Italian citizenship, mass litigation, aggressive advertising, unrealistic promises, and questions about the ethical limits of professional practice in a sector that has grown enormously in recent years, as we all know.

[00:00:57]Amid these transformations brought about by the new Italian legislation, the discussion ceased to be merely administrative or genealogical, so to speak, and became also legal, institutional, and, above all, ethical. In this context, the Paraná chapter of the Brazilian Bar Association seems to be getting ahead of the national debate by creating a commission on immigration law with specific coordinating bodies, including one for citizenship.

[00:01:31]To discuss this moment, we are joined today by the president of the commission, Dr. Aida Muedini, the secretary Dr. Tainá Lopes, and the rapporteur and coordinator of the citizenship working group, Dr. Alberto Ferrari, who is already known to the ICEM audience. We want to thank everyone for their presence or for accepting the invitation to discuss this momentous subject, as we say. And to begin, let's ask the president, Dr. Aida, why the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) felt this was the right time to create a specific commission focused on immigration law. Doctor, please, welcome.

[00:02:22]Thanks. Thank you, Desidério Peron. Well, we'd like to thank the magazine for giving us this space to have this dialogue. I am Aida Meredin.

[00:02:34]I am a lawyer. Today I am the president of the Immigration Law Commission of the Paraná Bar Association. Well, for those who are listening, I'm going to give my description. I am a white woman with black hair, I am wearing a black outfit, a black leather jacket, and I am here in my office to speak with you.

[00:02:58]Well, I have an honor today, you know, to have been appointed as president of the Immigration Law Commission.

[00:03:10]The Brazilian Bar Association (OAB) believes that the commission should not be a mere bureaucratic addition, but rather a necessity, considering the migratory flow that Paraná receives. We are talking about Curitiba, in the state of Paraná.

[00:03:29]Paraná is the second state in Brazil that receives the most people of other nationalities, migrants and refugees. Therefore, anticipating this, the Brazilian Bar Association (OAB) created a commission on immigration law. That's because some demands were coming to the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association), questioning the right to choose nationality, refugee status, right? It's about who would be entitled to refugee status and who wouldn't, because some nationalities, people of certain nationalities, were entitled to refugee status, while others were not. So, the Brazilian Bar Association (OAB) was being sought to provide an opinion, an understanding of the case.

[00:04:15]So, seeing this need, the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) created this commission in December 2025. It's a very new commission, created so that we can dialogue with the state government, with whom we have a good relationship, with international organizations, and with lawyers, to create a unified way of thinking about migration, refuge, homeland, citizenship, and everything else that has consolidated this migration law. So, when we talk about immigration law, Perum, we're not just talking about migrants, right?

[00:04:58]We talk about emigrants, about immigrants, right? Of refugees. So, we say that because it's a two-way street. So, we have many, many Brazilians, more than 4 million Brazilians living abroad. And we have welcomed over 2,900 nationals from other countries into the country. So, these are migrants who are actually directly displaced, right? Therefore, there is a need for dialogue, for a commission to serve as a bridge, a bridge for dialogue, a bridge to establish new rights, or to solidify those that already exist. So, initially, that was it. And within the committee, we subdivided some fellow lawyers to form working groups so we could address specific topics.

[00:06:06]So, I am very grateful to have Dr. Alberto and Dr. Bruna as part of a working group on citizenship.

[00:06:14]So, this working group, they are the coordinators, and they discuss citizenship issues, Italian and Portuguese citizenship.

[00:06:23]Portugal has changed too, hasn't it? There was a change in your law. So, the context of citizenship is discussed more broadly, and then we bring it to each nationality.

[00:06:35]Nice to meet you, Desidério! I'll pass the word along.

[00:06:39]Very, very cool. Thank you very much, doctor, for that comprehensive explanation.

[00:06:43]So let's delve deeper into today's topic, which is citizenship, shall we? So let's talk to Dr. Tainá, Dr. Tainá Lopes, who is the secretary of this group, right? And that. Well, then, please, Dr. Tainá, I'll give you the floor.

[00:07:03]Thank you for your kind words, Mr. Peron. Well, greetings to everyone listening today.

[00:07:10]Well, I'll do as Aida, who came before me, did, and describe myself to whoever is listening. So, I'm a white woman, my hair is brown right now, right? Because for us women, it depends on the day. So, today it looks like this, with some lights. Uh, I'm wearing a white blouse and a white blazer as well.

[00:07:33]So, uh, I'm the secretary of this committee, which I'm very proud to be a part of, along with such competent colleagues as the president, Dr. Aida, Dr. Alberto, and everyone else who is part of our committee. And as Aida said, the objective of our commission is much greater than just citizenship, but we couldn't fail to have this working group, because it 's a very important issue, both for lawyers and for people who need this service, who need to resolve their situation, to regularize their situation. So, our commission, coming from the Bar Association, is here not only for lawyers, but also, considering that it's a commission on immigration law, for those people who are part of this migratory flow, which is very active here in Brazil, right? Including, as Aida said, not only immigrants, but also emigrants. So, I'm very happy to be here. Well, I believe we'll have a very fruitful discussion on this very current topic.

[00:08:40]Thank you very much, Dr. Tainá. Let's then hear from Dr. Ferrari, who is already known to the ICEM audience. He is the coordinator of the working group on citizenship, and it's worth remembering that he is registered with both the Bar Association here in Curitiba, Brazil, and in Italy. He lived in Curitiba for about 10 years, right? He even attended university here, etc. This complements his Italian studies, and he is now obviously pursuing his career in Italy.

[00:09:21]Come on, Dr. Ferrari, please.

[00:09:23]Good evening, Peron. Good evening everyone.

[00:09:26]Thank you for the invitation. It is an honor to participate in this conversation alongside Dr. Aida and Dr. Tainá, representing the Immigration Law Commission of the OAB in Paraná. And I must also greet Dr. Bruna Meer, who is not with us today, but with whom I coordinate the citizenship working group of the commission. Uh, I'm a white man, uh, with brown hair, a little gray, and I'm wearing a blue suit jacket. H, this Migration Law Commission of the Paraná Bar Association, uh, uh, as my colleagues have already said, uh, is very important because it demonstrates that the Paraná Bar Association has decided to address, in a technical, uh, ethical and institutional way, some important issues such as international migration and uh, and also some aspects, for example, of citizenship, because we cannot forget that the right to citizenship, ah, other European citizenships, arises because Brazil was the destination of many migrations. And in particular, the citizenship working group was created both to disseminate information about citizenship rights and various citizenships, such as Italian, Portuguese, German, etc. and also to address the problems of the practices that some companies are... how some companies have been operating in the market in recent years, which has generated repercussions in the media. And this is a topic we'll delve into in more detail later, okay, Dr. Ferrari? I think we'll get into the topic right there. I would ask the following question, right? What types of complaints, grievances, or concerns are currently reaching the authorities in this area related to citizenship and immigration services? I don't know if we could follow the same order as you. That's because I'm available to you here.

[00:11:57]Dr. Aida would like to, or perhaps you would also like to address this topic.

[00:12:03]Do you want me to go into that detail? Is that okay?

[00:12:09]Well, although this issue of abusive practices is already widely known by most of the public that follows Sieme, the magazine, and the sector. Well, I think it's important to mention a few points again because there are new viewers watching the broadcast today. And there are lawyers who want to start working in this area, and it is also essential to build a serious, transparent, and legally secure market.

[00:12:51]I also want to make it clear that the goal is not to create conflict with anyone, but to reinforce that citizenship, as we have said countless times, involves fundamental rights, legal responsibility, and respect for professional standards.

[00:13:13]So, getting into the details of what the critical issues are in the citizenship sector, because it's not just a problem with Italian citizenship. We've seen that the same thing happens in other nationalities as well. I would say that the most important problem is the unauthorized practice of law.

[00:13:44]Well, there are many companies that end up carrying out activities that, according to Brazilian law—and I'll let Dr. Tainá elaborate on this point later—are specific to the legal profession.

[00:13:58]For example, legal analysis regarding the feasibility of citizenship. Whether one has a right or not, interpretation of laws, guidance also on hypothetical legal strategies, even the preparation of legal theses, monitoring of litigation, because that also exists, indirect representation in proceedings.

[00:14:27]Well, the second point, which in my view is very worrying, relates to unrealistic promises or misleading advertising.

[00:14:43]Ah, a frequent problem that we also discuss a lot here is the promise of guaranteed results, such as guaranteed citizenship, a fixed deadline, risk-free processes, and assured approval. And now, after this new law 74/2025 and after the Constitutional Court's ruling, uh, uh, several promises, uh, although, uh, uh, there are some rulings, for example, the Venice Court, uh, that are not uh, uh, consolidated jurisprudence, but that are sold as uh, consolidated jurisprudence.

[00:15:33]Well, there's also another problem, which is the irregular solicitation of clients, such as improper intermediation, partnerships lacking transparency, and people—as I've already mentioned—without professional qualifications, offering legal services. Yeah, and also the misuse of lawyers' images or names, because that happened too.

[00:16:04]Well, all these problems not only harm the customers, but also the credibility of the sector itself. Until we saw that in the press conference for decree 36/2025, the foreign minister Taiani also addressed this issue, although he justified the change in the law with this, and we know that this is not the problem, but it is a problem that is known by the Italian government as well. Yes, another very serious problem is the lack of contractual transparency. Well, many families have already reported the absence of a clear contract, lack of defined responsibilities, and unexpected charges.

[00:17:08]Some families don't know who the lawyer is that is handling the case in Italy. It stems from the difficulty of accessing the documents, and even the difficulty of accessing the Italian lawyer himself. Well, when they meet an Italian lawyer, they sometimes report having no way to communicate with the Italian lawyer. Well, so all these problems, not to mention all the scams, because we know very well that in addition to all these problems, many families also faced scams, that is, they handed over money to some companies without the service even being performed. And the process in Italy wasn't even officially registered; lawyers in Italy didn't exist. So, these are the most serious cases of fraud that have occurred in the citizenship sector. Well, so I think it's important, very important, that the legal profession, in this case, the Immigration Law Commission of the Paraná Bar Association, began to address all these issues to guarantee the rights of both the citizen and the profession itself.

[00:18:38]Well, and I won't even go into the merits of the part concerning the professional code of law for lawyers, the code of ethics, because my colleagues know how to do that much better than I do. And I'll leave the floor to my colleagues.

[00:18:56]Let's go, then. Okay, Aida, please, let's continue with this initial explanation that Dr. Ferrari gave. Yes, and the problems are quite serious and numerous, right? They encompass both domestic and foreign law firms. I mean, we're in an area where diverse legal realities from different countries merge, along with ethics, which are actually more or less similar, but have their own particularities in each country, right?

[00:19:36]So, how is this going to be managed there? How is this being managed, doctor? Please.

[00:19:43]Well, Feron, well, actually, we have some quotes, you know, like, uh, we debate a lot within the committee, uh, many issues.

[00:19:57]Regarding obtaining citizenship, we have two options. We have the administrative area, which eliminates the need for a lawyer, which is administrative, but it's more bureaucratic, and it takes longer. Why?

[00:20:19]Because, from an administrative standpoint, not everyone has the knowledge to evaluate the documentation presented to a public entity, right?

[00:20:32]Well, in the judicial sphere, which is our case, lawyers then exercise their profession, right? Yes, as the statute stipulates, legal advice and consultancy for obtaining citizenship in judicial processes must be considered, and should be considered, an activity exclusive to lawyers. So, legally, a broker—a person who isn't registered with the Bar Association—cannot represent legal rights without being properly registered with the professional body, the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association). So, what does this bring? Legal security for those seeking their right to citizenship. And that's what we also do, uh, awareness work, okay? Because yes, we also receive some criticism that there are companies that are indeed working, providing legal advice, but behind the scenes of these companies... You don't always have a responsible lawyer.

[00:22:05]So, if there is a legal assistance service for obtaining citizenship, I need to have a lawyer involved in that to provide legal security, okay?

[00:22:20]So, some travel agencies, visa processing agents, and citizenship facilitators don't have the legal authorization to issue legal opinions, okay? What fits into this category, which we can say, and later Dr. Tainá can elaborate, is whether it constitutes an irregular, illegal practice of the legal profession, because only lawyers can issue legal opinions.

[00:22:57]So yes, we have some requests for assistance, for justification, to see if that possibility exists within the committee. And we take the letter of the law and make it seem like it's about the letter of the law.

[00:23:15]Oh, what can be done legally is this, that's it. You have to have a lawyer, you have to have responsibilities, he has deadlines, he does, you understand?

[00:23:24]So, these are situations that should be observed in everyday life. What we have here is a very large flow of advertising from companies that do this on social media, and also here in Brazil today we have scams by fake lawyers who are putting people who come to apply for citizenship, or another form of immigration regularization, in a risky situation. So, this channel is extremely important for us to talk about this.

[00:24:10]Okay, doctor? Thank you very much for moving forward and delving deeper into this issue. So let's hear from Dr. Tainá, whom you yourself have already mentioned, right?

[00:24:21]We have some serious problems ahead of us, right? Right now I'm receiving information that a certain company, let's not mention the name for now, is abandoning all its clients, and this certainly implies abandoning, and I don't know if it's abandoning the lawyer or if the lawyer is abandoning these clients along with them, because there's also that problem with the contracts, right? Who is the contract made with? With the lawyer or with the company, right? Because this is an issue we've already discussed quite a bit here. Dr. Tainá, please, the floor is yours.

[00:24:58]Yes, Peron. Well, everything that my colleagues who came before me said has legal backing, right? It's not as if the legal profession is, as Dr. Alberto rightly said, creating confusion with these agencies, or anything like that.

[00:25:14]But in reality, there is legal backing that would be in the Statute of the Bar Association, right, in our first article, including the second clause, which states that these are activities exclusive to lawyers.

[00:25:26]So, consulting, advising, legal direction—all of that needs to be done by a lawyer, precisely to protect the interests of that client. Nowadays, someone is bringing up a different topic for discussion, but we even have AI that, if you play around with it, can tell you if you might find that good opportunity or not. But the lawyer's detailed analysis is what will differentiate these agencies from an AI program, for example, because based on the specifics of that case, what would generically apply to all others will often not be suitable.

[00:26:07]So this analysis is something that is truly very peculiar and needs to be done by a specialized lawyer. I even opened the chat here to follow the comments over there. I saw that someone asked, right? Ah, but the Brazilian lawyer, he might... he doesn't know anything about Italian law, and it doesn't quite work that way, because if you do this here in Brazil, the lawyer will analyze the viability of that law here in Brazil.

[00:26:35]And when you ask even Dr. Alberto himself, who has much more experience in this area, he'll be able to say, " But we need an Italian lawyer, or someone with Italian qualifications, to be able to finalize this legal process in Italy."

[00:26:51]So, that's why it's so important, because if we're talking about national legislation here, it already has enormous significance. Now, when we're talking about two sets of legislation from two different countries, the importance of interpreting that law and analyzing the case becomes even greater, doesn't it? So, for example, a company that sells these services, like " come and get your citizenship" or that brings, as we've discussed before, citizenship brokers, that brings things along those lines to attract anyone who wants to get that citizenship. In fact, she's doing it in a completely misguided and irregular way, because she doesn't know if that person is eligible for that citizenship. This would require a lawyer to analyze and verify, look, whether your citizenship is possible based on these documents I've reviewed, based on this legal hypothesis. So, we need objectivity and knowledge to be able to convey this to that person, right?

[00:27:55]So, a company that sells this, but doesn't have a lawyer registered on its staff, that doesn't have a lawyer to do this analysis, is a company that is illegally practicing law. She couldn't do that, she couldn't sell that service. According to our legislation, this service is exclusively the responsibility of a lawyer, right? And so, besides representing, of course, an ethical infraction, a very serious infraction, it also jeopardizes the dream of that person who placed everything in the hands of that company to resolve that situation, to help them obtain citizenship, which in this case we are talking about Italian citizenship, but as Aida rightly said, it's not just about Italian citizenship; we have companies for all types of citizenship that are doing this and reproducing this same practice.

[00:28:47]Completely unreasonable, and so, a piece of advice that I'll put here is for people who are going to look for these companies—not that they are illicit companies, as the doctor rightly said—our objective is by no means to cause repulsion or fight with these companies that provide this service, but to alert society and people who need this, that for a company to operate offering this type of service, it needs to have a lawyer who does this analysis. So, a piece of advice is when looking for these companies to ask: "Okay, but who is the lawyer responsible for the legal analysis of my file? What is their OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) number so I can check?" This is easy to find out.

[00:29:32]Here in Brazil, we have the National Registry of Lawyers. Just Google "CNA" and enter the OAB number; it will show the registered lawyer, whether they are active or not. And this avoids, as has already been discussed here, scams, frustration, and even the illegal practice that we see these companies promoting. So, of course, I'm not talking about all the activities of these companies related to citizenship issues, such as analyzing or preparing documentation. That's something completely feasible and possible for these companies to do, but still under the guidance of a lawyer. Because otherwise, how do I know which documents I need to file this claim? How do I know which general documents are suitable for someone with a specific issue?...to remedy. So even then, legal guidance would still be necessary, because citizenship, as we know, is a process, right? And this process needs the accompaniment of a lawyer.

[00:30:39]Thank you very much, Dr. Tainá. Let's return to Dr. Ferrari. We recently had, Dr. Ferrari, an avalanche of, let's say, let's soften the terms a bit, somewhat dubious interpretations of sentences, etc. There were people who went around taking advantage of companies, let's say they even took advantage of lawyers. That's where our question comes in. They went around taking advantage of sentences that hadn't even expired yet. No, no, no, no, how do you say it? No, no.

[00:31:16]The sentence has already been consolidated, let's say, judged.

[00:31:21]Exactly. So, that's it. How does the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) view this issue? For example, I would like to get to exactly how the OAB understands that there should be some regulation in this area. In fact, For lawyers, there is a code of ethics, right? I think there is.

[00:31:40]Now, for these companies, how do you solve this problem? Is it perhaps the lawyer's fault, or are these companies acting under the lawyer's guidance, for example, trying to make it seem like that ruling could generate some positive marketing for the company?

[00:31:58]So, we're in a somewhat limbo situation, right, to define the lawyer's professional responsibility and ethics.

[00:32:11]I think, Perã, that this type of marketing, including, most recently, this last ruling from the Court of Casa on May 12th, which, although a very positive ruling because it was based on our Italian Supreme Court, doesn't apply to, it wasn't a ruling related to, this last law, said some very important things, but I'll give an example of this last ruling for those who don't know much about the sector. This last ruling reiterated once again that citizenship is an original, imprescriptible right, etc. It seems that citizenship has returned to what it was before for some time. Regarding communications and some companies, and citizenship, I want to make it clear, has not returned. It's a very important ruling, but it's still too premature to say that citizenship has returned. In fact, we are still waiting for the Court of Cassation, the United Nations, and the next Constitutional Court.

[00:33:24]But, answering the question of what you did, it's difficult to even say what the limbo is between the lawyer and the company, because we don't know, firstly, if that company has legal counsel, but if there isn't legal counsel, it will certainly be an irregular practice, exclusive to the legal profession, as Dr. Tainá already said. So, if there isn't any lawyer involved, then the company is certainly exercising an activity exclusive to our profession.

[00:34:04]If there is a lawyer involved, and the company didn't communicate that it's a lawyer, then probably the lawyer involved shouldn't be acting in that way because they must respect the principles of the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) code of ethics. The Brazilian lawyer, as well as an Italian lawyer, must respect the principles of the OAB code of ethics if an Italian lawyer is involved.

[00:34:33]The Italian code of ethics.

[00:34:36]Uh, uh, so, uh, uh, but without knowing who is involved, even so, in my point of view, opening a commercial company with a registered tax identification number (NPJ) at the Commercial Registry and advertising this type of service is not allowed. Uh, and that's been clarified. Uh, and there's also the Italian part which, and probably in some circumstances, is a little unclear as well. Uh, so, uh, uh, this sector, I think, should be regulated both in Brazil, but in Brazil, uh, uh, it's undisputed that this type of legal consulting activity is exclusive to lawyers. Uh, and in Italy it should also be addressed, because at this moment, uh, uh, there are numerous problems, both ethical and transparent, but uh, in Italy, it's not being addressed. We have to make that clear. Uh, uh, there are complaints, there are complaints from the government, there are complaints from the judiciary, but it's not being addressed. What Italy has faced so far relates to fraud concerning recognition through administrative channels, for example, false residency with the complicity of both advisors and comune officials who attested that a certain person was residing at a specific address in Italy in order to obtain citizenship. (Opening a parenthesis for those unfamiliar with this aspect of citizenship through administrative channels.)

[00:36:36]Why did this happen? Because citizenship could be requested administratively at the Italian consulate, in the country of residence abroad, or directly in Italy if the person was residing in Italy. And here, many problems arose because it generated a fictitious address, sometimes without the citizenship applicant even having set foot on Italian soil, with the complicity of some Italian municipal officials.

[00:37:11]We even have accounts from some famous Brazilian figures, including Rodrigo Faro, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:37:23]So, to resolve these problems, these impasses in the world of citizenship, the market... It needs to be regulated in both countries. It's no use saying, "Let's limit citizenship because there were frauds." You can't limit a right that someone acquired from birth because the sector doesn't function well, or a part of the sector doesn't function well. In my view, the countries need to communicate on this point. And there needs to be some serious regulation, because it 's easy to reform citizenship the way we've seen, but you don't take away rights because some professionals, some companies don't work according to the law.

[00:38:23]Dr. Ferrari, thank you very much. And I think that leads us to the following, the following verification, since it's a sector that doesn't have regulation, perhaps someone might have gone a little too far, or too little, both here and in Italy, right?

[00:38:45]And that's what ended up getting us to where we are, in the case of Italian citizenship, but Portuguese citizenship is also there. We know that these problems don't only concern us. The OAB, for example... For example, from Paraná, uh, obviously we have to talk about our national scope as well, and the equivalent of the order of these countries, like Portugal, Italy, they have, uh, conversations among themselves, have they already exchanged ideas about this? How does the president see it, Dr. Aida, this issue of forwarding some initiative to regulate the sector?

[00:39:32]So, Peron, uh, the commission is very new, right? And the topic of citizenship is debated within the working group that Dr. Alberto and Dr. Bruna coordinate.

[00:39:45]We know that the search for dual citizenship, especially European citizenship, is a hallmark, right? Uh, that many people seek, right? Uh, and when we talk about citizenship, and you yourself mentioned here the need for regulation, we here are lawyers. We know that we have a regulation that I say is excellent for the performance of our profession. We know how far we can go, what we should do. And what we should always do is within the strict compliance that the law imposes on us.

[00:40:25]So, when we talk about citizenship, we represent the applicants who seek our services through legal action.

[00:40:39]Therefore, it's important to understand that, as Dr. Alberto mentioned, the process in Brazil is handled by a Brazilian lawyer, providing legal security, but it's necessary to work in conjunction with a lawyer in Italy.

[00:40:59]That's why we need to strengthen these bridges so that the work is effectively done and yields results for those seeking citizenship.

[00:41:15]This must be done with integrity and transparency. And as Dr. Tainá stated from the beginning, it's crucial to find out who the lawyer is, to know if the company or agency handling the citizenship process has a duly registered lawyer. That's what we need to look for. Now, regarding your question, Peron, about establishing communication, we are just beginning to do that within the working group. It's a role that... Dr. Alberto and Dr. Bruna have been doing this, and we can provoke this discussion. What falls to us, as I said, we in the Immigration Law Commission, is to build these bridges, provide guidance, and debate the issue so that everything is done within our legislation. But for us lawyers, we have excellent legislation that truly demands strict compliance from us.

[00:42:40]No, thank you very much, President Aida.

[00:42:43]Let's see what Dr. Tainá has to say about this? Well, I would only consider that, you see, we have professionals within a structure that operates in different countries. We have visiting lawyers from Italy who come and end up establishing offices and companies here in Brazil, right?

[00:43:15]Foreign consultancies, intermediaries, and transnational networks, right, that in this whole issue we find not only in Italian citizenship, but also in any other citizenship, right? Well, this certainly creates difficulties for the oversight and accountability of professionals, right?

[00:43:39]We have, and I'll add another issue here, including a very serious recent problem of people, uh, clients, who are being threatened by these, let's say, professionals, uh, or people who uh, who intervene in defense of victims, let's say, uh, end up being threatened by these professionals, uh, who often don't even have registration here in Brazil. How could, or can, or should, or is the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) acting within this context?

[00:44:21]Dr. Tainá?

[00:44:24]Yes, Peron. Uh, in Dr. Aida's speech, it's very important that we think within the commission about how to promote and raise awareness, right? So, I think that when we talk about promoting, we're saying that today our commission is a very new commission, but it 's already a great advance, because it's the position of the order. So, this means that the OAB is engaged in this issue and it The intention, evidently, is to create, as was done, a working group to question and challenge all these situations, because it is from these discussions, from what is done here, very brilliantly in this channel, for example, that these discussions and what we have fostered here will bring about some significant change, right? On the contrary, we will always have more cases in this sense, where nothing will be done, and this is, as we know, an age-old issue, not something new, right, these problems. So, the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) is engaged in this, and the creation of this commission is proof of that. When we talk about promoting this among lawyers, we have to recognize that we have many lawyers— and this was a source of joy for us in our commission— who want to work with this theme. So, bringing these discussions to understand the limits of this action, the duties of this action, is also something that falls to us. When we talk about challenging and discussing, it means that if we don't do this... Regarding the movement, if we don't bring these cases into the discussion, if we don't bring an opinion, a position from the Bar Association, which is a very large institution, we won't be able to bring about significant changes, right?

[00:46:18]So, we start from this understanding that we have today, with doors open in many other institutions, also through the position that the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) expressed when creating our commission.

[00:46:33]Regarding what you brought up, about lawyers who, sometimes, aren't even lawyers, who provide a service and then, when discovered, threaten the client. This has been happening for a long time, as I said. And the OAB today, as Dr. Aida herself mentioned at some point, has a very strong focus on combating fake lawyers, right? So we have been doing a lot of this precisely because, not only here in Italian citizenship but in general, we have received many scams from people who claim to be lawyers and contact people because they discover that there is an Italian citizenship process, so they pose as lawyers, bringing, you know, even many times... A photo of that lawyer, the lawyer's name, that the person is used to saying: "Oh, I changed my phone number and I wanted to continue with your case here." They're going to need so much money to be able to go through with this. And the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) has been doing this outreach, which I think starts with raising awareness among people that this is happening and that lawyers need to be registered with the Bar Association to practice law, and that when they do practice, they receive various duties that they need to adhere to in order to serve their clients. So, we've been doing this very strongly within the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association), and this role is precisely to disseminate information and reach those people who need it, right?

[00:48:03]Because it's pointless for us to do this work if people don't want to, for example, report the situation so it doesn't reach us. We need to be aware of this improper conduct. We need to be aware that there may be a company operating within its legal boundaries and initiating legal actions that it shouldn't.

[00:48:25]We need to have this complaint filed against us, right? And we need to encourage this so that we can increasingly take a stand against these allegations.

[00:48:34]So the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) is always open. We have today here in Paraná, at least to my knowledge, a complaints channel on the order's website. So, if someone has gone through the situation you mentioned, if someone sees it happening, we don't expect it to happen, but we know it does, the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) is open to receiving complaints. It's very possible that we, from the Immigration Law Commission, will be asked to comment on this case, as will the oversight commission, because we have an oversight commission within the OAB that monitors the actions of these lawyers. As Dr. Aida herself said, this is something very important to us, and we, who follow the legal profession in Paraná, especially, know that there are extremely strict limits that we have to follow to perform well.

[00:49:24]So, the order is always open to these complaints and we remain committed to understanding this situation, and we will indeed take action. What we need is awareness, so that people aren't afraid to report, that people know they're on the right side and that they can do so without fear of reprisals, right?

[00:49:49]Dr. Tainá, if you could provide an email address, I can put it on the screen here to make the address of this complaints channel public. How is that perfect?

[00:50:05]This is the website of the Paraná State Bar Association. On the website, there's a channel for reporting crimes, and people can file complaints directly on the site: www.pr.org.

[00:50:19]And there she can already file that complaint, okay? It already has, it already has, it's already structured within the channel itself, the path for reporting. OK.

[00:50:28]Thank you, Dr. Ta. Let's hear back from Dr. Ferrari then. Dr. Alberto Ferrari, uh, we are here paving the way, actually, because some time ago a theory emerged that this whole issue would be an activity exclusively for lawyers, right? We know Dr. Girardelo, and he even participated in a live stream with you, right? He has defended this thesis several times already, in articles he wrote for the magazine, everything, right?

[00:51:03]Well, of course there are these other jobs that obviously wouldn't be exclusive to lawyers, but do you believe that the path now, with the increasingly intense judicialization, at least in the Italian case, regarding the issue of citizenship, will have to make it exactly an activity exclusive to lawyers? Or people can still turn to these companies that were formed in response to the difficulties. We know that all of this is new, it's somewhat recent because of the obstructionism that has been created along the way. The consular area used to be all administrative, and it ended up leading to intense litigation, which is what we're experiencing now. How do you see this whole situation and the role of the Brazilian Bar Association (OAB) in all of this? Including not only the Brazilian Bar Association, but also those of other countries, such as Italy, Portugal, etc., right?

[00:52:05]Yes. Well, firstly, it's clear that these obstacles created by the Italian public administration led to a mass of lawsuits. But, Perão, I've always been convinced that this type of action in judicial citizenship has always been the exclusive domain of lawyers.

[00:52:30]That. I agree with Dr. Gerardelo. Yeah, I agree. Yes, and incidentally, over the last few years there has been a trivialization of this judicial citizenship. Because how can you sell a service? Because that's what selling is all about. And we lawyers don't sell anything, it's not a sale, but a service provided. And it was a sale of judicial citizenship services.

[00:53:00]How can you sell a judicial citizenship service without being registered with the Bar Association? How is that possible? That's why I've always been convinced that this citizenship service should be exclusive to lawyers. As Dr. Tainá also said, the preparation of the documentation, such as the apostille, can be done, but announcing judicial citizenship, and whether or not you are entitled to citizenship, should not be done by a company that does not have a lawyer on staff. Well, it's a very serious matter, a legal analysis. Well, and I 'm very honored to have joined this committee, not only because of Italian citizenship; in fact, I'll say that I never even considered joining this committee that we would form this working group. Until I joined the international law group, and then these kinds of problems arose, and later this citizenship working group was created, and I feel honored to coordinate it, to be a part of it.

[00:54:16]Well, I think the role of the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) needs to continue, not only in Paraná, but throughout Brazil, in this sense, so that citizens are protected and our profession is also protected. Uh, uh, the decorum of our profession must be preserved, because uh, uh, it's a serious matter, as our minister said in another sense. Well, the work of a lawyer is a very serious matter and cannot be trivialized in this way. Well, this needs to be done in Italy too.

[00:54:53]Now, it's being processed in the Italian Parliament; it's already been through the parliamentary committees.

[00:55:01]Legal consulting in Italy is currently not exclusive to lawyers; it's consulting. Well, it 's already in the Chamber of Deputies, the Senate, and the constitutional committees; this proposal, this bill, has already passed, which would also make legal advice the exclusive domain of lawyers in Italy. I think it's very important to say this as well, because in Italy we are also facing the same problems, not only with citizenship, but also, for example, with visa agencies, etc., any type of consultancy that should be exclusive to lawyers. So, uh, I think it's something that will take quite a while, but uh, the way forward, the right path, is to raise awareness so that we can improve this whole situation.

[00:56:06]Well, I'll take this opportunity to finish up, this has nothing to do with that question.

[00:56:12]Well, I just want to clarify something on a subject I addressed earlier, when I talked about Rodrigo Faro, because I later realized that perhaps those who don't know this story, Rodrigo Faro is a victim of this whole system, isn't he? That he was, uh, ah, ah, let's say, aware of this type of non-existent residence. He was the victim of a company that claimed he resided in a certain city in Italy. Just to clarify, for those who are n't familiar with the subject, right? Exactly. Often, due to the lack of clear information and the legislation governing the matter, that circular gave the impression of something windy, right?

[00:57:00]It gave the impression that suddenly people, obviously because the ground is shifting, end up falling into the swamp, right? It ends up falling into the swamp, right? Well, he was caught, I mean, it's a somewhat unclear thing, something that we're precisely trying to discuss here to clarify these things, to see exactly what the limit is for the citizen, because ultimately we are here to defend the interests of the citizens. Yes, that's the general goal for everyone, right? Well, that's why I'm asking the following: uh, let's talk again with Vamos, let's establish another round, if you'll allow me, right? Who's who today? Because the [amount] has increased in recent times, it has increased, of course, even due to the [missing word] of [missing word], today it's easier, right? Migration and mobilization are greater, right, throughout society, across the entire world, right? So this problem is getting worse, right? Well, but who is feeling that way, whether in the field of citizenship, in the countryside, in any of those areas, what attitudes should they take before making a decision, Dr. Aida, right? How do you get to the OAB exam at the right time? uh uh guidance, after all we're going to give, if possible, give to our uh uh uh viewers here.

[00:58:29]Well, anyone can contact the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association).

[00:58:37]Anyone with a legal issue can contact the Brazilian Bar Association (OAB), because the OAB is also a channel for clarification and referrals.

[00:58:46]So, anyone who has a need can look for it through the channel we have on the website, right?

[00:58:58]All the contact information is on the website, and we can then provide guidance from there.

[00:59:04]If there is a need for action there, the OB will forward it, okay? encaminha eh dando direção para o caso específica. That's why each case is unique. We can't, we can talk about citizenship in a broader way, but it usually comes to our committee for us to give an opinion, to make a referral, or to question something. So that's also the role that our committee plays. Well, now that we have lawyers involved, we try to ensure the regularity of the situation, right? So, if there is anyone who has been a victim of a fake lawyer, or a company that claimed to have a lawyer, they can contact the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association), and the OAB will take the necessary steps and provide the correct guidance. Now, when we have this in particular, we always tell those who seek our services, as lawyers, to always look for a regulated, duly registered lawyer, one who is registered with the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association), as this is the security that the client is looking for.

[01:00:28]He wants a result, right?

[01:00:30]We can't always promise results, but we try to find the closest possible path to achieving what the client wants. So, speaking of citizenship, it's something like national sovereignty, right? The decision to grant or deny citizenship is not made by the Brazilian Bar Association (OAB), the commission, or the state government, but rather by the national government of each country. That's why we say that this teamwork is necessary, between the Brazilian lawyer and the Italian lawyer, because the Italian lawyer will actually handle the process in Italy, checking if the certificates are correct and in accordance with what the registry offices require. So, these are situations where we work together, so it's necessary for a lawyer to be present at all times when citizenship is requested through the courts.

[01:01:42]Thank you very much, Mr. President. Let's see.

[01:01:46]So let's hear from Dr. Tainá one more time, shall we? Hey, Dr. Tainá, it's there, and the paper, right? What is the role of the legal profession in this new scenario that is opening up, which is obviously becoming increasingly dynamic and demanding? In practice, the main objectives of the commission are those of this commission, right? Well, we can eventually consider that other orders, other sections, might also become aware of this problem. Well, everything, obviously, having as its common goal what I was talking about, to guide and provide security to the citizen, right?

[01:02:32]Exactly. Peron, I also left the reporting channel in the comments so people can contact OB in these cases. So, of course, to explain, we won't conduct an investigation; this doesn't replace a lawyer who might be committing the crime of making threats, as has been said here, right? That is, if he's a lawyer, right? Look, there's this difference where we often don't know if the person doing that is a lawyer, and threats sometimes arise from that question. So, obviously, the crime report should be directed to the police station.

[01:03:08]But the Brazilian Bar Association (OAB) also acts in these cases.

[01:03:12]For example, within our committee, as you explained, we have several departments operating. One of the departments provides support to migrant victims of crime, for example. So, if this immigrant is in that situation and doesn't know where to turn, and as Aida rightly said, the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association) is also a source of information. If he arrives there and asks, for example, to be seen, they will follow that protocol. If he makes that complaint, it will be forwarded to us and we will issue an opinion, providing guidance and support, truly assisting that person. In this citizenship case, it will be forwarded to Dr. Alberto's working group so that he can issue an opinion and follow up with this person, so that he can also provide this assistance. Well, so the Brazilian Bar Association (OAB) expresses its opinion in these cases, and it obviously does so before the lawyer, if it is indeed a lawyer who is doing this, because that would be an ethical violation, right? This would not be a regular exercise of his profession. And the Brazilian Bar Association ( OAB) would certainly investigate this lawyer in light of this complaint that has come to light. So, it is in these terms that the OAB's role would be established here. And this thing you told us here, Peron, is very moving, isn't it? It's important for the other sub-sections to eventually create their own immigration law commissions as well.

[01:04:31]And we have this project within our committee, which is to raise awareness among other committees, other Bar Associations, so that they also create a committee like ours, on this same topic. Some already have it. So, in order for us to make this debate global, right? We're starting by raising this question, we're starting by debating, but we need people who are engaged in the cause, who understand this situation, so that we can also gain strength and make this connection not only with lawyers, but also with important institutions, right? There are many complaints related to the consulate, and as I've discussed with Dr. Alberto on other occasions, we need to be able to coordinate so that we can move things forward correctly, within the law, and in accordance with the duties of a lawyer working in this area.

[01:05:26]Thank you very much, Dora Tainar.

[01:05:29]Hopefully we'll see this, let's see these ideas flourish, right? forward. That 's important, isn't it, Dr. Ferrari? So, let's wrap up this last, final round. So, you're wrapping up, right? It's closing now, right?

[01:05:49]And then we begin the final round of concluding remarks. I just wanted to add the following, in addition to what you obviously intended to say. that we are experiencing here. The gentleman who is there is part of the committee, he's the rapporteur, right? That's the term you're using, right? The coordinator, right? Well, regarding that vast number, we know that the other day they were even talking here about 50,000 or 100,000 victims in Brazil, people who were victims of the Italian citizenship issue, in this specific case, right? Uh, uh, what would you say now in your role as coordinator of this OAB group?

[01:06:34]Hey, Zé, which way should I go? Because it seems like there's a little bit of everything in there, right? There are even lawyers who have abandoned the case, etc. And so on, right?

[01:06:45]I suggest that people contact the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association), as my colleagues have already said, contact the OAB. OB also serves this purpose. Yeah, file the appropriate complaints, ask for guidance, etc. The Brazilian Bar Association (OAB) is a friend of the citizen; it will help guide citizens. You have to report instances where someone hasn't worked correctly, and then the OAB will verify whether or not appropriate action should be taken. HH But you have to start making these kinds of complaints. Yeah, and it's the same thing in Italy. Well, I 'm very pleased to be part of this group, and specifically this working group, to begin raising awareness among both the public and institutions about this problem that has existed for many years and does n't seem to be ending; on the contrary, it's getting worse every year. So, uh, OAB, uh, you can consult professionals at the OAB. Well, it's your right to check if the person is properly registered and active with the OAB (Brazilian Bar Association), but also in Italy. And we've talked about this before, we sent you the addresses in Italy to check if an Italian lawyer exists. You can and have the right to speak with your lawyer. Yes, it's your right. As a lawyer, you have a duty to explain the situation of a particular case to your client. So, ah, when I've heard it said many times, "But no, I don't know my lawyer," "The lawyer doesn't want to talk to me," "It's not your right to talk to your lawyer." Well, I don't even know who's handling my case.

[01:08:57]Eh, eh, so pay close attention, ask for the OAB number. In Italy, in addition to the number, we have the obligation to have insurance for professional liability, professional errors. So, you all need to be aware of this information before signing the contract. And as we've already discussed on other occasions, and as my colleagues have already said, Brazilian lawyers need to work together with Italian lawyers. The correct approach would be to sign two separate contracts: one for the legal proceedings to be carried out in Brazil and another for the Italian judicial process. Ah, in Italy a contract isn't mandatory like in Brazil, but at least a budget for a given process is required. So, this part, which has already been debated numerous times, is, in my view, very important to distinguish between the process to be carried out in Brazil and the process in Italy, so that there is transparency in all the procedures, firstly in Brazil, then in the United States, wherever it may be, and then in Italy. So, uh, uh, people started looking for a qualified lawyer and, uh, uh, and asking all the questions they deemed necessary in that particular case. There's no need to be afraid to ask your lawyer questions, especially since the relationship between a lawyer, by definition, the relationship between a lawyer and a client is one of extreme trust. Therefore, if there is no trust, a professional relationship cannot exist.

[01:10:57]So, don't be afraid. Hey, ask around, talk to your lawyer. I, your lawyer, will answer all your questions and address all aspects you have doubts about. Don't hesitate to contact your lawyer.

[01:11:13]Thank you very much, Dr. Ferrari.

[01:11:15]Thank you very much. Okay, so... uh, I'll stop interrupting the conversation here. I'll leave the floor open, right? Because up until now, suddenly I've messed things up, haven't I? I'll leave the floor open for final remarks. What I didn't ask, but which is important to say.

[01:11:32]Please make yourself comfortable, President Aida.

[01:11:38]Thank you, Peron. Oh, sorry. In fact, what we can do is thank the magazine for the space it provides so that we can discuss and make ourselves available. We are truly available to everyone listening and following us, and we'd like to talk a little about our commission, which is a new commission, but we're very energetic and eager to discuss all issues related to migration and citizenship. This is one of the central themes we have within the commission.

[01:12:18]We say that immigration law is not just a market niche. It is a safe haven of fundamental rights in a world without borders. Therefore, we must keep in mind that a lawyer is a fundamental element for anyone seeking citizenship, because they provide security and allow the person to not worry about the procedure, as Dr. Alberto stated, building a relationship of trust. You will be entrusting your citizenship, your sense of belonging, recognizing yourself as belonging to the homeland. Therefore, the role of the lawyer is extremely important. And we here at the Immigration Law Commission, we do strive to ensure that the service is humane, that there is a very active listening to the people, because each person who seeks recognition, citizenship, wants to be recognized in their core, in their right to belong. So, for us, this is very valuable, and when we discuss these issues within the committee, we also consider the need to uphold the rights of others. This is important. And I am very honored to have Dr. Alberto and Dr. Bruna, who are in Italy, as part of the committee.

[01:13:50]So, our committee is very diverse.

[01:13:53]Well, we have international organizations as advisory members along with us, we have a State Secretariat. So, for us, everyone is a key and important person in building this bridge, this debate, and in really forming new guidelines, new questions, and promoting rights. And I leave here my gratitude and the pleasure of sharing this conversation here with Tainá, with Dr. Alberto, and with you, Desidério Teron, who honors us greatly with this opportunity. Thank you very much.

[01:14:37]Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Thanks. And let's hear from Dr. Tainá, please, for her final remarks.

[01:14:47]As always, as I always say, look, be free. There's no time. That is to say, up until now I've asked, let's say, maybe those were n't the necessary questions within what you intend to convey at this moment. It's available.

[01:15:05]Feel free.

[01:15:06]Imagine, actually, I wanted to congratulate you on your driving, it was always brilliant, but especially today.

[01:15:14]So, actually, the opposite of what you said made us feel very comfortable discussing this issue, which is truly extremely relevant and needs to be said. So, I also appreciate the opportunity to discuss this very important topic. And I would like to reiterate everything that was said there by the president of our commission, but I would also like to extend an invitation, our meetings are open. Well, we have meetings every 40 to 45 days, so we have a lot of discussions there about migration, about migration flows, about refugees. So, these are topics that many people will eventually be interested in, in addition to citizenship, of course. So, uh, I'd like to leave open the possibility for anyone interested in participating in our meetings and listening to the lectures. We always invite qualified people, people who understand the subject and have expertise in that particular topic to discuss it.

[01:16:13]So, we're leaving this open so you can access our meetings. You can go to our Instagram, which is Ceddemig, the immigration law commission of the OAB Paraná (Brazilian Bar Association of Paraná). We're always available to strengthen this bond that we have and intend to maintain. So, uh, my thanks go to you, to the space, and to the two colleagues who collaborated on this podcast with me.

[01:16:43]Thank you very much, Dr. Tainá. Let's hear Dr. Alberto Ferrari's final remarks, please. I am grateful for yet another invitation to discuss Italian citizenship in the magazine, especially today, a very important invitation because I was able to participate along with the committee of which I am a part, of which I am honored to be a part, and I also thank Dr. Aida and Dr. Tainá for allowing me to coordinate this working group. Eh, eh, but I would also like to emphasize the importance of creating this commission, uh, just as Dr. Aida said, in a world without borders. So, this commission is very important, it addresses fundamental issues, and I'll even venture to say that if the Immigration Law Commission had existed when I moved to Brazil, it would have been very important to me, because the Immigration Law Commission also assists and helps the migrant population with the revalidation of diplomas. For me, this is an aspect that I struggled with a lot when I arrived in Brazil. It was one of the hardest parts to revalidate my diploma and then be able to take the OAB exam. So, uh, uh, I was also very, very happy with that part of the performance, because it's a very, very complicated aspect for someone who comes from abroad to live in Brazil.

[01:18:27]Well, well, I hope that this work, done in the citizenship coordination, can also help raise awareness among the population and that we can also reach other sub-sections in Brazil so that this problem is not solved, because it is still premature and difficult to solve, but at least the issue is brought to the attention of the public.

[01:19:01]Thank you very much once again for the invitation, Dr. Alberto Ferrari. We appreciate your participation, as well as that of Dr. Aida, Dr. Tainá, and everyone who has followed us so far, both on YouTube, our main channel, and on our other channels.

[01:19:20]Today we broadcast on Facebook, LinkedIn, X, and Instagram simultaneously, right? Well, this video, as always, will remain online. It's just a matter of time before the various platforms render the video; it will then be available for future reference. What we say here is public knowledge, right? What I mean is, this channel is always available, right? As soon as we have news there, it's always open here, right?

[01:19:48]Thank you again, and see you next time, everyone!

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