Inability to probe disciplined forces shackles NHRC: Dr Alice Edwards | Star Connects

Added: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]How do we bring about a cultural change in how torture is viewed? There are many ways of [music] ordinary policing that seem to have been overtaken by this simple confession. Do your leaders want to be Nelson Mandela or would they prefer to be Idyamin?

[00:00:18][music] The parliament recently repealed a law that broadly empowered the National Human Rights Commission. They've brought back an old law. This law cripples the human rights watchdog. What does this mean for the human rights fair of Bangladesh, for the overall human rights situation in the country? To talk about this and more, we have with us the United Nations special rapeteer on torture, Dr. Alice Edwards. Thank you for joining us on Star Connects today.

[00:00:54]Dr. Edwards, you were talking about the need to have an Aclass National Human Rights Commission. And I I know that that refers to the global alliance of national human rights institutions, the kind of classification they do for human rights institutions all across the world. But just for the lay person who doesn't understand what an Aclass or B status means, what does that mean for the kind of National Human Rights Commission Bangladesh needs?

[00:01:21]>> So, it's a really good question. uh a national human rights commission becomes one of the the the independent bodies that is a monitor of the practices of public authorities whether it's a health authority uh prisons policing uh children's services etc and the most important part of the a status is to ensure that that body has been given the legislative power to be independent politically independent financially independent and substantively independent which means they get to choose their own uh agenda within this broad framework of human rights. It's one of the most important modern developments we have in human rights.

[00:02:04]Most societies around the world have a human rights uh commission these days.

[00:02:10]It plays a very important role in society. It can assist the government in proposing uh changes. It can inform the government when things are going incorrectly and it can also and it should be able to be empowered to carry out investigations of a human rights character.

[00:02:31]>> When we use the word independent that's thrown around a lot but what does autonomy really look like for an institution like this?

[00:02:41]>> So first of all it will require a legislative instrument. So a law unfortunately the ordinance that was meant to be extended from the interim government has uh lapsed. The law should provide a financial basis.

[00:02:58]Uh there should be no political influence on this body which means also a proper selection process for uh the commissioners who would form the national human rights commission. their remuneration should be assured to a certain level so that problems around corruption that we might see uh arising are also eliminated and also a clear outline of their work. Uh the preference for these bodies is that they report to parliament and not to the government that it isn't the government that gets to choose who the commissioners are.

[00:03:34]They should also have security of tenure that they should know how long they're in the position and not have the the worry that in fact the the government of the day may change the head of the commission or the commissioners for someone that they prefer. That's kind of what independence means in that context.

[00:03:53]all seems like um a far reach at the moment under the current law which also restricts the human rights commission from investigating disciplined forces.

[00:04:05]They're not allowed to do that. They can simply ask the government for a report which the government may or may not give and then they can you know give the recommendations based on the report.

[00:04:15]Now, how do you expect a government to eradicate torture if the NHRC cannot investigate disciplined forces? Look, the NHRC no doubt is an incredibly important body and I'd really like to see the government uh move forward with that. They have indicated to me that they intend to make some adjustments to the law. We don't yet know what those adjustments are, but certainly they should be in alignment with the a status required by this international uh oversight uh entity. Uh and of course there are other pillars within society that also have human rights obligations.

[00:04:55]It's not the sole responsibility for the National Human Rights Commission.

[00:04:58]Parliamentarians themselves, for example, can visit places and should be able to visit places of detention.

[00:05:04]Parliamentarians should be able to meet victims and survivors. They should put forward legislation. Uh there's also the law commission that has a role here in either initiating uh new proposals for legislation that are human rights compliant and or to receive instructions uh from the government. In fact, your constitution is relatively robust. a very strong article 35 subsection 5 that no one shall be subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

[00:05:35]What is also needed is investigations that are separate from that national human rights commission but which can feed into criminal procedures. Uh, one of the issues that has arisen continuously during my visit here in in Bangladesh is the a practice of the police of confessional uh evidence of gathering information and confessions from suspects and witnesses but as the sole or primary source of their uh evidence.

[00:06:08]And where that is not supplemented by other investigative tools, of course, we we end up in a cycle of violence and beatings and coercion and intimidation within the police force. But then there's a question about if that happens, who investigates that? Now, the National Human Rights Commission is is one to do a human rights style investigation, but there should also be an independent police complaints body that is also separate.

[00:06:35]>> This commission, which was supposed to happen, didn't I also understand there was a a proposal for the police commission a body that can anytime there is an injury or a death under police or custody of the authorities. So it could also be in a psychiatric hospital for example uh it could be in a public hospital. If there are un uh uh unexplained deaths then there should be an automatic reporting to the uh police commission in this context. In other words, a police independent police complaints authority.

[00:07:11]>> Right. I mean the fact that any kind of physical violence does amount to torture if it happens in the custody of the police or the law enforcement. This this concept it seems very alien to the culture of how law enforcement deal with citizens in Bangladesh. Anytime a citizen in conflict with the law is arrested, goes to the police station, he or she will invariably come somewhat in contact with some form of torture. It may not go to like you very extreme lengths. it not go to extreme um yes it it may not be extreme torture but at the same time even if the police for example hit the person for no good reason if the person is unarmed if the person is not putting up a fight and the police decided to hit the person or did not let the person sleep throughout the night that does also amount to torture how do we bring about a cultural change in how torture is viewed and how I mean and and if if we can't do that how do we eradicate torture So I would say first of all it does require leadership from the very top from the parliamentarians but also from those that are leaders in the police and other uniformed uh services. Uh without that leadership it relies on individuals to do better to be better. Um you're absolutely right that you know anytime the state is engaging in violent uh or abusive uh conduct it falls within this broader umbrella of torture or other uh cruel inhum or degrading treatment or punishment. It is an absolute prohibition under international law. Bangladesh ratified which means they agreed to the terms of the United Nations Convention Against torture.

[00:08:59]This is one of the few obligations under international law that is considered so egregious that when one person is violated in one country, it is considered a violation against the whole of humanity when it is the severe form of of cruel, inhuming treatment or punishment. That might seem very legalistic. Um you also have from 2013 a reasonably uh good uh act uh the prevention of torture and custodial deaths act that needs to be fully enforced. But at the end of the day, there are so many practical ways in which one can change the culture of police. And my role is also to talk to the police and encourage them not only about removing torture from their their toolkit, but replacing it with other methods that work and >> equip. So basically equipping them equipping them with something that that works rather than >> Yes.

[00:10:03]>> So that they don't have to beat up people. Exactly. You can't just say you can't do this and then all of their old habits of solving crimes by simply getting forced confessions.

[00:10:14]>> That's one thing. And we have new techniques now about investigative interviewing which means that you are relying on rapport building stresses torture on the brain actually prevents people from recall. It prevents them from actually being good witnesses or uh you good witnesses in courts of law. Um, neuroscience tells us that in fact it really impacts memory. It impacts uh cooperation. There have been these studies in Australia and Canada uh and the United Kingdom of convicted felons and whether when they first came to the police station they were prepared to cooperate or not. And the large majority actually were either thinking about confessing or cooperating. As soon as they were mistreated, even just verbally abused, >> they decided, "Forget it. I'm not going to cooperate. So it does a it's the reverse effect than the police uh uh expect. And I would also say that there are roles here for the magistrates and for the courts. It's very important then when someone is brought within 24 hours of their detention as the law uh sets in Bangladesh that they are asked about have you been well treated? If there are any signs of injuries, there should be a medical examination.

[00:11:32]The the magistrate should not be sending back people who are claiming to have been tortured or ill treated back to the same people who are the accused in that circumstance. Uh there are also rules that no evidence that was coerced or uh obtained under torture or other ill treatment can be admissible in uh court proceedings except for the proceedings against the perpetrators. Um but there are many ways in which uh torture can be eradicated. But you're absolutely right. It needs to start from the leadership in terms of a culture of human a culture of human rights needs to be developed to replace essentially a normalization of state violence in this country because you know I'm thinking that say someone comes up to a magistrate with no injury marks no bruises no physical sign of torture that would show up in a medical exam and and if the person is saying that that person has not been treated well in custody has been ill ill treated in custody Should that be enough of say an evidence or a testimony for the magistrate to take action on just that claim itself or would would or can that be considered um something that's been being said for the person because the person is trying to perhaps get out of going to jail. Right?

[00:12:59]So of course one needs to have these safeguards in place but at a minimum there should be then an interview with that person. and they should be taken aside to understand what happens. In other countries, the judges themselves, the magistrates will have their own detention facilities. So they would then be moved from police custody into the judicial custody perhaps while that inquiry is being carried out. So there are some structural deficiencies in the Bangladeshi system. I've also heard that magistrates just even when people do appear bruised and injured. Now, of course, this could have happened because they were in a fight on the street that they, you know, had problems at home and therefore they're coming in at this point. So, it could be evidence of the crime of which they're being accused rather than torture. We have to uh understand that. Uh but the magistrates have a responsibility and the judges to make inquiries when there are reasonable grounds to to to uh assume or to to indicate that torture or treatment uh may have occurred. You talk about structural deficiencies. Um I've recently been hearing about police stations needing CCTV cameras for for for it to be made made mandatory for policemen to wear body cams. How important are things like these in ensuring transparency in policing?

[00:14:24]>> So first I would say in the interviewing room every interview interrogation should be audio or video recorded. I can give you an example from the United Kingdom where they used to have a continuous delay in the proceedings by asking to see to with these allegations of torture or abuse or mistreatment.

[00:14:47]Then when they started recording them, not only did it stop that style and that, you know, torture related interrogation, but also the lawyers no longer even had to request the tape because everybody knew what was on the tape. We they didn't need to go through these long transcripts of the tape to see whether it did or didn't happen. The beginning they had to do that, but over time they now record everything. No one asks for the tapes because more or less that uh torture has been eliminated. Of course, there will always be incidents.

[00:15:20]Um but then there are problems of well then sometimes that abuse happens outside that interrogation room >> and that's where the CCTV comes in and the body cameras. There are shortcomings with all of these things. But it's really important that police and other uniformed including uh prisons are well trained that they understand the rationale for these procedures. It's not um only to treat people respectfully but it will improve uh judgments. It will uh uh reduce miscarriages of justice. It will stop in future claims of compensation. So it's a here in Bangladesh it is a really important project because of the normalization of this state violence over many many years and many decades but it is possible in other countries show that one can't can um rebuild these institutions that benefit the police so that they don't have to go to work and beat people up also but that they will also have good um resolution of cases that uh that there will be robust judgments in court.

[00:16:34]Uh so there is a lot that can be done uh and that's what I'd like to see uh investigated here and that the government uh embrace this as well as the uniformed forces embracing it.

[00:16:45]>> This all sounds like a dream but it's going to require so much structural retrofitting and I think a complete over overhaul of what the police can look like in Bangladesh. I I don't know how long it's going to take for us to actually get there, but I wonder if we can start questioning some of the more fundamental um methods that the police use in terms of how to interrogate people. One of them is I don't know if you've heard about this, but it's called taking in someone for a remand. So, it's where the police ask the court to uh they request the court to grant them access to an inmate. the inmate will be staying inside the police station wherever the police would like to keep them usually in like a holding cell or something like that and then they can um interrogate the inmate for as long as they the court allows them to do that.

[00:17:37]It usually lasts days and a person can be taken into remand over and over again as many times as a court allows. I I've I wonder if there is another way of doing this because when a police has access almost unfeted access to an inmate for days and the inmate is staying within their premises in their custody once again for days.

[00:18:03]A lot of things can happen which can go unnoticed and this is often where torture takes place the most. I I wonder if there are other ways of of doing this if if Bangladesh is perhaps behind on some of the global standards regarding this.

[00:18:18]>> So you raise a very serious uh matter uh but there are uh appropriate and professional standards that apply in these circumstances. First of all, the police should not be relying wholly wholly on a confession for their criminal uh cases. They need to be doing investigations beforehand. I've heard about shortcomings in terms of forensic uh capacity and expertise in this country. That is something the international community should assist with. There are uh even fingerprinting is not always carried out. Wrongful identification. Uh alibi checking, going to the scene, photographing the evidence. Uh there are many ways of ordinary policing that seem to have been overtaken by the simple confession concept remand.

[00:19:11]>> Yeah.

[00:19:12]>> And actually police will tell you it's quite hard to get a confession out of someone if they haven't done the crime.

[00:19:18]Um and so there are all these professional standards and uh the national policing curriculum needs to be reviewed uh to be able to make sure that police are doing their job more appropriately.

[00:19:31]I'd also say the magistrates and the judges should be asking for better investigations.

[00:19:35]>> Investigations.

[00:19:36]>> They should be pushing cases out if they're not properly investigated. In some countries, which I think is a very good practice, the law will say that the confession evidence is insufficient. So, it cannot stand on its own. Others will say you can only uh secure a confession if it is before a judge or at least with the a lawyer present. So, the other side of this is the rights of the detainee.

[00:20:00]So one is the professional standards of the police and the other are the rights of the detainee and essentially you know detainees should only be or accused should only be taken into places that are officially registered. Their detention itself should be registered that would be great if that was on a database so people know where people are. It can also help with later alibis of course if you or undermine alibis. Um people need to be able to inform a family member that they are in detention. That is a standard right at international law. Uh audio and video recording I already uh mentioned to make sure that there is no pressure, coercion, uh violence and of course to be brought promptly before a judge which in this country is very short and is 24 hours very good. However, as you said there's this repetitive bringing before a judge. The judges need to step up.

[00:20:54]They cannot continue to approve just because the police are saying we need more time. We need more time. Even those extensions should be limited. In most other jurisdictions, that would be limited to 48 hours and then maximum 72 hours. If you don't have enough information at that point, you cannot charge the person and they should be let go. Uh so there are these safeguards.

[00:21:16]Hence the reason why the the the evidence gathering needs to happen before you bring >> someone in. It it's so funny that you say that they should be let go. Usually what happens is that they're sent back to jail and they're held in jail. This is pre-trial detention as we all know while the police keep gathering evidence to formally charge the person of the crime. Um we've been facing a bit of a conundrum in Bangladesh where the former political the the political activists of the former ruling party uh Wami League I'm sure you've heard of it uh they are now being named all of these cases which are these cases have 500 people accused for for one single murder for example and these cases are clearly um not very well done they're not very well researched not very well investigated.

[00:22:09]This is simply being pushed out from the the the victim's family who are of course seeking justice and as they should be. They should be seeking justice. But these cases have ended up politically persecuting Awami League political activists who are now being held in pre-trial detention on cases that are still being investigated um year and a half on. The Daily Star recently um wrote it we we recently did a report on how 90% of these murder cases are still undergoing investigation, meaning no one has been formally charged and yet thousands of people are being held. Is pre-trial detention, especially in a in a circumstance like this where we're clearly seeing it persecuting or disproportionately affecting one political party, is it amounting to torture?

[00:22:57]So clearly this needs judicial oversight uh and those the police should be non-politicized the investigative body there should be a professional uh police uh force the same standards apply regardless of what political party you represent.

[00:23:17]uh and what I would really like to see is that you know this is a society cannot be built on cycles of revenge. It really needs to be built on the rule of law, the separation of powers, human rights. Uh and all of this will also lead to you know political stability uh peaceful transition of power in the next uh phase. Um and overall everyone will be better off. And I know this seems far from the present uh circumstances.

[00:23:53]We have to start somewhere. And in fact, there were some developments under the interim administration. I've heard some good statements while I've been here about a willingness for cross party uh engagement, a parliamentary committee on human rights in the parliament that brings all of the parties uh together as well as independents and and others who would like to form part of this to discuss human rights issues to advise when pieces of legislation come forward uh would be a tremendous step to to set the the the government off in the right uh direction. There are really high expectations that I've heard across uh Bangladesh. Uh it's a a moment of great opportunity. I really hope this government uh won't flounder uh under these great expectations. Uh, one thing I would say which is counterintuitive that the government should also be prepared once there is an open complaints procedure where people have access to an independent investigation that there are practices and procedures against intimidation and reprisals. Once that system is set up uh the likelihood is that cases of torture will skyrocket.

[00:25:14]>> Right. and which happened with the enforced disers appearance commission once they finally started investigating enforced diserses they realized it's systemic >> yes and a government needs a strong backbone for this but also to already sensitize the population that there will be you know in this period there are going to be old cases of people coming forward finally it's a sign actually that society is open >> right >> if they are able to make their complaints over time. Of course, one wants that curve to start going down.

[00:25:49]>> Yeah.

[00:25:49]>> But we can't expect the police officer in a in a village somewhere or in a major town who has been using the same violent practices for the last 10 20 years to change overnight. But with training, with support, with a change in mentality, with an understanding of why this should be changed, it will I'm confident it will uh change uh if all the right uh matri matrix are in in place.

[00:26:19]>> You sort of slided right into my last question. [laughter] You're right. there's going to be a surge in cases showing up if we actually start taking this seriously and if we start having you know the frameworks the mechanisms in place for for victims to speak out. So why would a political government or why should a political government not fear an accountable process like this? Why should they not fear a strong autonomous NHRC? Look, if a government wants cycles to of violence to continue against its own people, it's not representing the people. If it goes on the revenge against its political opponents, it can be sure that there will be revenge future. Now is the time to break with that uh practice to really decide what type of society Bangladeshies want to live in, what type of legacy the leaders want to leave. Uh, and you know, it's almost, this might sound a little uh, strange, but I kind of think it's, you know, do your leaders want to be Nelson Mandela, or would they prefer to be Idyamin? And that, you know, appeals to people's hearts and that you're all Bangladeshies together, no matter your uh, ethnicities, your religions, your sex, your age, your social class. Um but it is compelling but on the other hand you know torture is a scourge on society. It is not a it leads to corruption. Sometimes torture is done because of corruption because of bribery because people won't pay the bribes when stopped in the traffic etc. But it also therefore leads to uh economic instability.

[00:28:06]And for trading partners, they want to be able to trust that the that there is a stable political uh government, that corruption is minimized. And with all of that, torture will also be minimized.

[00:28:21]You've raised the bar high, Dr. Edwards.

[00:28:23]We we have a lot to achieve, a lot of work to done to a lot of work needs to be done. And yeah, I don't know how far we will be able to um achieve some of the standards that you've set out for us with your visit here, >> but you know, I have to say the last week I've been here, there are incredibly hardworking people in Bangladesh. There are people working around the clock. uh you know human rights persons, lawyers, judges, journalists, you know, street vendors, people working in the shops. So I think there is this there is certainly the capacity and the ability to do this. Whether there's the political will, we have to wait to see.

[00:29:09]>> Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:29:11]>> Thank you so much, Zana.