"God vs. ChatGPT: Who Wins?" | (Bob vs. Heiko khoo)

[00:00:00]Want to have a debate?

[00:00:02]>> We're debating. Yes. In a few minutes.

[00:00:04]Yeah. In a few minutes.

[00:00:04]>> In a few minutes. Wanderer. Uh, we were discussing.

[00:00:07]>> Let me just come to me and say that.

[00:00:10]>> Let me just let me just bring you up to speed as to where we were.

[00:00:14]>> The man who baptized Tommy the Zionist Robertson.

[00:00:17]>> Yeah. The cycle path is obviously not open today in case you didn't notice.

[00:00:23]>> Well, we didn't know that in advance.

[00:00:25]But you can go on the other side there.

[00:00:28]Just look. There's a crowd of people.

[00:00:31]>> Go on. Communist work party.

[00:00:33]>> The argument was >> Yeah.

[00:00:35]>> What he he said, can artificial intelligence >> Yeah.

[00:00:39]>> Uh what was it? Create a theocratic >> morality.

[00:00:43]>> Morality. A theocratic. And then I cited you >> and your friend over there a few minutes ago discussing Christian doctrines and I said, "Yes, you can feed in all the information from the Bible. In fact, you could feed in all the >> You can do that >> library or the library of the Vatican.

[00:01:02]>> Do that into Google.

[00:01:03]>> Feed it feed it all in to a large language model, a specialized large language model uh for the Pope for example or for Bob the Builder and then reconstruct arguments.

[00:01:16]>> There's rumors going on. You don't really know that much about Christianity. It's all fake.

[00:01:20]>> Just ignore the guy.

[00:01:21]>> I'm ignoring him now. I'm ignoring. He's trying to go you. He's trying to go you.

[00:01:27]>> I want to talk to you.

[00:01:28]>> What do you want to debate?

[00:01:29]>> Well, you came over to me to ask me a question. So, I figured to ask you a question, but I don't mind. I don't mind debating with >> What do you want to debate about?

[00:01:36]>> We're doing something now.

[00:01:38]>> Doing a video now.

[00:01:39]>> I got you a gift specifically for this one.

[00:01:44]>> As we as we were discussing artificial intelligence and that was a subject matter I was thinking of talking about.

[00:01:50]I don't mind discussing that. Is that of any interest to you?

[00:01:54]>> Yeah, I could discuss that.

[00:01:55]>> God and artificial intelligence, mankind and artificial intelligence and the future of humanity and of the negative and the positive.

[00:02:04]>> I think we're going to agree upon a lot.

[00:02:06]>> We may or may not. I don't know.

[00:02:07]>> Yeah. I don't know.

[00:02:08]>> Can I can I chime in then?

[00:02:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, the question is what what what would you how would you like how should we agree a thematic for debate?

[00:02:17]>> Fair enough. Um, I mean, >> what's the >> I'm trying to connect it. No, I'm just trying to connect it to AI since that's what you've invited me in on.

[00:02:26]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, these are a big themes of the day.

[00:02:30]>> How about connecting this to Charles Darwin's >> Well, we could we could do an interesting dialect.

[00:02:39]>> Oh, we got an out of date here.

[00:02:42][laughter] Sorry.

[00:02:45]>> What would >> Carl Mar say about AI?

[00:02:49]>> Sorry, >> my argument. And what would Jesus >> Christ say about AI in your opinion?

[00:02:56]Obviously, you don't want to pretend to be Jesus Christ, nor do I want to pretend to be car. But we brilliant interpreters of those.

[00:03:06]>> I think that is a fair way to do. Yeah, I'll go. Go on. I'll jump in.

[00:03:10]>> Have you got time to think about that?

[00:03:12]>> Yeah, I don't need time. I don't need time.

[00:03:14]I don't need a minute. I'm already preparing.

[00:03:16]>> I'm all ready. I'm good. I'm good to go.

[00:03:18]So, here we are. Here we have Bob the Builder, infamous speaker corner.

[00:03:23]Infamous Christian evangelist speaker corner.

[00:03:28]>> Infamous infamous Marxist speaker at speaker's corner. And we will be debating >> what Jesus Christ would think about artificial intelligence >> versus what K. Marx would think about artificial intelligence. And then of course we can cross-sect. What about Charles?

[00:03:44]>> I think that's a great question.

[00:03:45]>> Not on Charles Darwin >> and Francis to restrict the question to those questions. Brilliant. How much time do we get each?

[00:03:54]>> 3 minutes.

[00:03:55]>> 3 minutes. Is that timed by somebody?

[00:03:58]>> Would like someone like to time it. 3 minutes. 3 minutes.

[00:04:00]>> We do do it.

[00:04:01]>> Yeah, we do. Yeah, we do.

[00:04:03]>> Do you want to time your shut? No. Don't worry about it.

[00:04:07]>> We do do the time. Do you want to Anybody want to time us? You got to have rules with people like this and you take >> 15 seconds warning.

[00:04:15]>> 15 seconds warning.

[00:04:16]>> Yeah. Let us know when Let us know when the bus stop.

[00:04:19]>> Why have we let him come here and monopolize it?

[00:04:22]>> It's fine.

[00:04:22]>> He's only a two Bob geyser.

[00:04:24]>> He's only a two Bob geyser.

[00:04:26]>> You decide what you want to do. I decide what I want to do.

[00:04:28]>> More interesting getting up with what's his name?

[00:04:30]>> Just a troll.

[00:04:31]>> Why do you let him go?

[00:04:32]>> A troll.

[00:04:33]>> But but but but it's not for you to decide. You don't like it.

[00:04:39]whether I debate him or not.

[00:04:41]>> That's it. Bold your arms. Feel a little bit uncomfortable, do you, Bob?

[00:04:44]>> Right.

[00:04:47]Don't bother me. Don't bother me. Let him go. Let him Let him go.

[00:04:51]>> Let him go on.

[00:04:52]>> No. Why should I? He's a [ __ ] Let him go. You can think that, but don't have a tone like that. It's a debate.

[00:04:57]>> Turn me off, should he?

[00:04:58]>> He's just He's just He's just want He's feeding on the attention. Just ignore him.

[00:05:02]>> He is. Don't do it. He gets round. You trigger him. He doesn't like you. That's fine.

[00:05:08]>> But that's Faker's corner. You know what I mean? You don't have to like >> Shall I go first or do you want to go first?

[00:05:13]>> You can go first. There you go.

[00:05:16]>> So, on my first word, start the clock and then give me a 30 secondond warning, a 15-second warning, and a 5second warning.

[00:05:23]>> Three, two, one. So, ladies and gentlemen, we're talking about what is the Christian perspective on AI versus the Marxist perspective on AI. The first thing that I would like to point out to you, which is a tangent to the debate, so it's the only time that I'm going to touch upon it, is that the obsession and concern about AI is masking two other kinds of revolutions that we're facing in our world that we're not talking enough about. The first one is the genetic revolution and the second is the bodily or mechanical augmentation revolution. I encourage you to go away and look into both because whilst we're all talking about AI, those two are slipping under our horizons and we're not thinking about it. Now, to understand the Christian perspective on AI, you've got to first understand the Christian perspective. Jesus when he came he preached about the idea of the kingdom of God and that the kingdom of God was establishing itself on earth because of him and because of what he was doing and that kingdom of God was waging war against the principalities and demons and powers of this world to free man from sin. Now in that context, ladies and gentlemen, in that context, Christians look not at tools like AI, but we look about how they are used.

[00:06:56]We're not so much concerned about the development of language systems, but we are concerned about what the super structure of those language systems are being designed by. according to what value system because your values are connected to your doctrines.

[00:07:20]The values that you believe in emerge from what you believe about man, the world and man in the world as Haiku is about to demonstrate when he talks about communism. And so Christians when it comes to AI do not label it as either bad or good. What we do is we assess how it impacts us as human beings and what are the values by which it is coded by. And one of the greatest problems about AI, I think from a Christian perspective is that it encourages intellectual idleness.

[00:08:01]It will endanger us by literally handing over our autonomy and our ability to think and research for ourselves to a machine coded by a select group of technical priests.

[00:08:21]>> Okay, when you're ready, >> I mean it's a perfectly reasonable method to start. uh that is to explain what you mean by your basic doctrine which you're thinking about and then relate that to the question of artificial intelligence. So I'll do a little bit about that just quickly. So Marxism is a method for understanding the dynamics of society based on the history of social classes arrayed around who owns and controls the means of producing wealth. So the instruments and tools and land by which we shape the world and the way in which the hierarchies of society are organized to structure that production process and the distribution of wealth. So here we have a new tool, a new machine, a new technology produced by the hands and brains of human beings but apparently out of their control. Uh there are many people who talk about the dangers that AI is impending uh or is about to reach a point where it is superior to human beings and when it is superior to human beings it may take command over the world and that would be a tremendously negative phenomena. So they call this artificial general intelligence and the idea behind it is is that the machines will control everything in the world.

[00:09:47]human beings would be impotent in relation to the decisions made by those machines. And therefore, we're facing an existential threat to the future of humanity and the way we live because our agency as human beings will be subservient to that of the machines.

[00:10:07]>> Yes. But I am arguing based on Marxist outlook that ownership and control is the decisive question not the technology itself. I think the idea of artificial generate intelligence conquering the world and dominating the world is a dystopian dream of the ruling classes particularly of the Silicon Valley elite who have used this mythology just like the Christians use the resurrection or use the idea of heaven and hell. Though the leading likes of technology in Silicon Valley today uh from Sam Alman to Elon Musk are throwing into the air a deluded idea that they can control the entire planet using artificial intelligence and that if they don't control what happens to it then it will control all humanity.

[00:11:05]>> That's the goal.

[00:11:06]>> And what is your three minutes? Three minutes. Can we get someone to speak?

[00:11:12]>> So ladies and gentlemen, let's be clear.

[00:11:16]>> The a artificial intelligence as we have encountered it has emerged out of a world view that is rooted in the enlightenment and that is a religion uh that uh values two things individual freedom, technology and rationalism. And it is because of those doctrines and those values that we have arrived at the idea of thinking machines. But I want to pose a deeper philosophical question which is that the people who are saying that we are creating thinking machines have a view of human ontology that is mechanical. And because of their view of human ontology as mechanical, they think that they are creating thinking machines. I want to suggest to you that artificial intelligence is a myth. We cannot create genuine artificial intelligence because artificial intelligence must have the spark of life that comes from its creator.

[00:12:27]But nonetheless, ladies and gentlemen, nonetheless, when we create these massive language constructs, we're creating something the the click of the fingers can draw in and make conclusions from and learns to make conclusions from massive amounts of data based upon certain principles being programmed into it. Where? How long have I got? When AI first came out.

[00:12:58]>> When AI first came out, ladies and gentlemen, >> when AI first came out, ladies and gentlemen, >> oh my gosh. When AI first came out, ladies and gentlemen, >> I started using it, wondering if it would help me in my apologetics work here in the corner. And very quickly I discovered that political correctness had already infected Chat GDP.

[00:13:26]>> In other words, YOU COULD ASK CHAT GDP to make a joke about Jesus and it would.

[00:13:32]>> You ask Chat GP to make a joke about Muhammad and it wouldn't. And that's the problem with AI is that people people who are coding AI are coding to their ideology. And that is the danger. And this is where me and Haiku agree. But we agree for different reasons. We agree that it is important to recognize who are the priests of tech. And no, that isn't a reference to Warhammer 40,000.

[00:14:05]We ladies and gentlemen need to address the ideology writing the coding >> and that decides whether AI is good or bad.

[00:14:18]>> I'm just a point of which I think is actually incorrect >> part of this starting. Okay.

[00:14:24]>> Yeah. One point I think is incorrect and that is that for example this issue about Muhammad or a joke or something like that that's not that's not correct.

[00:14:32]Uh what is correct is that if you use the artificial intelligence lang large language models on the internet then they will have a layer there is a layer of censorship about controlling it.

[00:14:48]>> No I'm saying what actually exists is a layer of censorship at the interface level that you use on the internet. the same large language models can be downloaded onto your computer and when you use it on your computer it will not have those restrictions. So these are restrictions imposed by censorship at the interface level through the internet. So it's not actually internal to the system. You can also have weight biases which are imposed by people who have made programming and emphasis of certain things. So for example, one of the reasons why the Chinese artificial intelligence on videos is superior to the artificial intelligence of western video production is because they've got a larger database that they've drawn from. And in terms of unified linguistic uh uh uh uh weight, the Chinese have also got a huge base of information from everybody's communications in China and from the internet publications in China all in a single language. So you got English language, you got Chinese language, each of which will have the largest stores of data from which information is drawn. So those are just technical questions about the organization of it. What about related to humanity? Like uh uh a song.

[00:16:15]>> Like what?

[00:16:15]>> A soul.

[00:16:17]>> Well, that's not really related to humanity. That's related that's related that's related to human beliefs. Human beliefs. Some people believe in the existence of a soul. Now you might in fact materially I think >> I I think artificial intelligence is not that different from the religious concept of the soul. I think it's not that different. Now you're supposed to be timing, not vomiting.

[00:16:47]>> Not that different. In fact, you could ask you could ask what is the soul?

[00:16:53]You're saying it's something that outlasts a human being and represents their continuity in the consciousness of other human beings or in a spiritual existence after their death. Now, the closest thing we've got to that in the material world is artificial intelligence. That that is true. But I don't believe that that is a soul and I don't believe there is a soul of human beings in any case. So that's why that no I wouldn't and that's why well this what we're discussing we're debating differences in viewpoints on my first so ladies and gentlemen the reason the problem that we have the malaise that we have within modernity and western civilization is to quote Jurassic Park we're so enamored by whether we can do a thing we never stop to ask whether we should do a thing, ladies and gentlemen, >> and we bow at the cult of the machine in the West. We're obsessed with innovation and technology. That's why we go out and buy new computers when the one that we've already got works perfectly fine.

[00:18:07]And the new computer and the new computer only happens to make you a minute faster. But yet we think we need to buy the latest thing.

[00:18:18]>> The Christian community through groups like the Amish and the Brudahof offer us a different kind of alternative. Our approach to technology as Christians should be based on Christian values that ask the question, do we need the technology to uphold human dignity? Can the technology enhance human dignity and make it better or will it make it worse?

[00:18:51]And it is on this evaluation prism that we should engage with the question around artificial intelligence. Will the use of it make human dignity stronger in culture or weaker? And the evidence at the moment seems to suggest weaker. Let me give you an example. Those filthy dogs running communist China >> are using artificial intelligence are using artificial intelligence to create a social currency in which people are being locked out of parks, locked out their homes, fired from their jobs by face scans. Ladies and gentlemen, they're using artificial intelligence to create a technocracy that imprisons people in an open air prison. And that demonstrates to us that there are just some technologies that give us too much power. And because they give us too much power, we should not embrace them. If the world had thought in a Christian way, we would not face the ever possibility of total nuclear destruction because society would have gone. This gives us too much power. And that is how we should measure all technologies, ladies and gentlemen, based upon how it impacts human dignity.

[00:20:30]Whether it >> take an extra minute extra minute take an extra minute.

[00:20:33]>> Whether it impacts human dignity or whether it hinders human dignity and the evidence would seem to suggest that the moment this power gets into the hands of government, government uses it to decrease human dignity. So maybe and so and so do corporations.

[00:20:56]And so MAYBE MAYBE THE best way to deal with artificial intelligence is to make it openly available to everybody at the same time without restriction.

[00:21:12]Possibly maybe that is a better way to do it.

[00:21:21]Yeah, I'm sorry. I was just trying to fix some of that up. So, I missed some of what you said. So, if I if I if I don't catch up on exactly what you're saying. Excuse me. Um, I think one of the main problem is is or the main problem is is who owns and controls shapes the trajectory of a technology.

[00:21:40]And so, >> it's not just Zionists. Zionists are one component. Chinese but >> well I'll come on to the issue about China and the west essentially the western powers ruled by the United States of America dominate artificial intelligence. One of the reasons why Palanteer has been booted out of the French uh defense department and was was challenged by the Swiss was kicked out by the Spanish. I think the Germans have challenged it as well is because they want they don't believe that their own technology is sovereign and therefore because these technologies allow the opposing country to utilize their in the infrastructure that they've got to penetrate into the operational models of society. So for example, how a bank operates, how a corporation operates, uh how the financial infrastructure operates, what the people say to each other, how the mass media communicates, what is said to them, how they respond to it, how you can shape opinion. All those things are shaped by the technologies associated with artificial intelligence. So one of the reasons the arguments has been that the technology itself has reached a point where you can literally if you gain the upper hand you can destroy your opponent. So you would be able to crash their economic system destroy their banking system paralyze their society take over their weapons make their weapons attack them and so on and so forth. Yeah. So in other words every weapon that a country has got could then be turned against itself.

[00:23:20]Every technology that you have got can be turned against you and everybody understands it in that way which you've been pointing out about the individual and the children being manipulated by technology and so on rather than them controlling it controls them and there therefore the discussion about stopping children from accessing social media and all this sort of because they don't control it. It's the same dynamic where human beings lose control over the trajectory of the machinery that they themselves in the abstract not individually but in the abstract have created and therefore the same question arises that I posed in the first place which is the classical I've got four or three >> well that's extra minute is it >> well he did four is that okay yeah so the same question arises that I posed in the first place who owns and controls rules is a decisive question. Now that doesn't mean that public ownership will necessarily produce perfect results or democratic control would necessarily produce perfect results because we are building technologies on the basis of the existence of societies who have got all sorts of different internal regimes and internal cultural background. So if in the t if in Afghanistan today you allow people unrestricted utilization of that technology they can use it for whatever a terroristic aim if the Afghans want to carry out terroristic aims or the Americans of course who are the dominant power in the world not Israel the dominant power is America the dominant power of America their main reason for financing and arming the technology machinery of the of the uh the Silicon Valley is to try and prepare the ground to destroy China and they use all sorts of methods to do it. One thing is the endless propaganda campaign to argue that China has got one a generalized social credit system which they do not >> agreed >> two that they have a totalitarian dictatorship which they do not. I'll come back later on.

[00:25:34]>> So do three minutes. Go back to three minutes.

[00:25:36]>> Three minutes each.

[00:25:37]>> So just three minutes.

[00:25:38]>> Yeah.

[00:25:40]>> Ladies and gentlemen, as Christians, as Christians, we want to we want to measure things through the idea of the kingdom of God. Now I want to say that Haiku me and him are are agreeing for the most part. He thinks the most important question to ask is who controls artificial intelligence? I want to ask a deeper question. I want to ask the question what is the ideological narrative that the people who control AI are living by? That's a much more important question.

[00:26:20]That is important ladies and gentlemen because how you view the world and man and man's place in the world will directly affect how you use technology >> as every society has. And I would suggest to you that Christianity offers to man a lesson that communism doesn't recognize.

[00:26:43]Christianity offers this lesson. Man is sinful in his heart and he has a corrupt heart that will always pursue sin always in every circumstance. And that means ladies and gentlemen that technology that creates power over people's lives and held by too few people will end up being abused.

[00:27:10]Ladies and gentlemen, the point of government and the point of technology from the Christian perspective is not that we use technology to serve the God of Mammon and economy as the liberals do and the capitalists, but rather that we use technology to service us as we serve God. So that what we should do is have a limited form of AI that can speak into certain questions and not others. And the questions that it should be able to speak into should be decided based upon what is the common good, what would benefit us all, not what would benefit one group over another, ladies and gentlemen. And so there is a Christian approach to technology. But I would say that we need to reframe entirely our understanding of technology and stop seeing it as something to pursue for its own sake. I mean at what point ladies and gentlemen can we say to ourselves that we have enough that we don't need more? Why do we need constant advancement?

[00:28:30]Why can't we be happy with what we have?

[00:28:32]Great question.

[00:28:33]>> And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the radical kind of questions that Jesus asks that Markx didn't even begin to think about.

[00:28:50]>> And I want to listen to what he's saying. Can you ask me afterwards?

[00:28:52]>> Very quickly after he's finished.

[00:28:58]So the question about what the technology is used for, I don't think you should restrict what it should be, what it's capable of doing. But at the same time, you need to have protections for the individuals and for organizations using it to protect their infrastructure, to protect their operations without someone maliciously destroying them. uh and uh the entire structure of how American artificial intelligence is being designed is to produce that's the aim to produce something that would be a adv godlike knowledge over humanity a sort of knowledge engine that would dominate the intellectual sphere and be able to predict your actions before you take them and thereby prevent you from taking them and thereby prevent other countries from challenging American dominance.

[00:29:51]That's the ideology that drives American investment in Silicon Valley. But actually in the as it was seen last week in the stock market uh jittering uh around AI actually it's a con.

[00:30:09]There is my belief anyway there is never going to be artificial general intelligence. The idea that it will totally surpass humanity I think is false. the variety of human activity is too complex but it can facilitate the transformation of the world into a paradise. I think that is possible. Uh like the Christians imagine paradise.

[00:30:35]>> The Christians imagine that by changing the spirit and belief of human beings, you can make them behave in a Christian fashion and behave as a brotherhood and sisterhood of man based on living on whatever basics that human beings require to live on. whether it be the aesthetic life of a priest or whether it be you know reasonable abundance of a western millionaire for example. So they have a belief that changing the mind and morality of man will shape how human beings interact and create a kind of will of God on earth despite the fact that man is an inherent sinner. According to Bob, according to my view, human beings behavior, most of what is considered to be terrible sins today are products of the organization of social life, of the organization distribution of wealth and the legacy traditions of the past weighing on the minds and morality of humanity. And if you remove the objective create objective forces which create and regenerate those poisonous attributes in humanity then I believe you can create a paradise on earth and you don't require a god for that and you don't require a Jesus Christ for it.

[00:32:04]>> Another three minutes.

[00:32:05]>> Another three minutes. Two more rounds and then stop this one and then one more each. Yeah.

[00:32:10]>> Okay. Go. Ladies and gentlemen, beware of the merchants selling your paradise.

[00:32:17]>> The reality is every attempt to create heaven on earth by man has resulted in mass death, corruption, and the abuse of power. Whether it's Anabaptists in Monster during the reformation or whether it's communists in Russia and Cuba during the revolution or whether it's Islamists and I in ISIS in Iraq and in Iraq and Iran, the reality is those that promise you heaven on earth will only deliver you hell on earth. Ladies and gentlemen, it is not for man to establish fully the kingdom of God. That is the role of God himself and he does it through his Messiah. Let us be clear, Christians did not invent a myth of the resurrection to gain control over people. That is a Hegelian That is a Hegelian Marxist interpretation.

[00:33:19]and just a little sprinkling of fukul in it as well. But the reality is, ladies and gentlemen, the resurrection was proclaimed because it truly happened.

[00:33:31]Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead.

[00:33:35]And when he rose bodily from the dead, it confirmed his preaching that he has established the kingdom of God on earth.

[00:33:44]And that that kingdom is fighting against the principalities and powers of communism and fascism and ethnism and Islam and Hinduism and Zionism and liberalism. Ladies and gentlemen, >> why haven't you?

[00:34:00]>> As Christians, ladies and gentlemen, >> we believe that technology should have its place, but only ever as the servant of man. And until we truly change our relationship to technology as witnessed by the Amish community and the Brudof community, we are constantly going to be slaves of the machine and therefore constantly slaves of free market societies.

[00:34:30]Neither of these things are Christian, but neither is communism. The idea that the state should be trusted and that we place our faith in the state to use technology responsibly is foolish.

[00:34:46]Ladies and gentlemen, >> suicide.

[00:34:48]>> We need to govern ourselves according to the dictat of mitigating man's sin and his willingness to sin against his fellow man. That must be the governing principle of our laws and the licenses and use of technologies like AI. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.

[00:35:15]>> Yeah. In essence, the disagreement lies in in in this is that there is a belief that man is inherently bad, that God is the only determinant of humans morality and that human beings can do nothing about that unless they just adopt Christianity and behave as some kind of Christian icon and even then inevitably inevitably inevitably well whatever he's what he's argued inevitably they will be failures and sinners, but as long as they bow down and submit, then it's fine. I don't think that's the way the world is. I think the world has been shaped by human beings themselves. God has been created by human beings themselves.

[00:36:01]>> Show us different. Christianity, how does it show us different?

[00:36:06]>> How can we complicit?

[00:36:13]>> What? You don't think that was you don't think that was the case in the first world war in the second world war in the Crimean war in the Falklands war in the war in Ireland you in India you don't think they were participants in that you don't think people participated you don't think people particip people people participate in the sense that the structure of society reproduces itself and maintains itself and extends its power the Christian church itself itself is a form I've always been there.

[00:36:44]>> Would you mind? I've got I've got three I've got three minutes to speak. I'm not I'm not engaging at that type of argument because that's just he says that I say that. Why should I listen to what you're saying about it?

[00:36:56]>> Yes. But not to answer what you say.

[00:36:58]Just backing him up.

[00:37:00]>> I've got to be an express my point of view. That's the point of a debate.

[00:37:03]>> 30 seconds. Give me an extra 30 seconds.

[00:37:05]>> So, so the argument is >> Yeah, I know you don't like that.

[00:37:08]>> Who owns and control? No, I'm not taking extra. who owns and controls and why they own and control. You spoke against free market. One minute. You spoke against free markets.

[00:37:20]Free markets. Free markets are capitalism. That's capitalism. Now, if you're against capitalism, what alternative to that free market system can exist? And I believe that the alternative to that is public ownership and democratic control of the means of production. And that is facilitated and made possible for the first time really in history by artificial intelligence.

[00:37:48]It is perfectly possible to establish a paradise on earth based on artificial intelligence today. That's what I believe.

[00:37:56]>> I believe >> I didn't say you have to communist.

[00:38:02]>> I didn't say you have to believe me.

[00:38:04]>> Right, ladies and gentlemen, this is my final three minutes. I like debating Haiku >> because he understands what Speaker's Corner is about >> unlike a lot of the Islamists who perforate Speaker's Corner who have no clue. This is the spirit of proper debate.

[00:38:24]>> And I want to just show my love for Haiku by giving him a gift.

[00:38:27]>> Another gift.

[00:38:28]>> This isn't the book. He's got a basic library from me. [laughter] But >> huge library, >> but this that isn't the book that I wanted to give him. And the one I wanted to give him is a book full of the testimonies of former communists who all became Christians and why they became Christians. So he'll get that next time.

[00:38:47]>> No, ladies and gentlemen, the debate ultimately boils down to your ontology and the writers of the apocalypse that have brought about the destruction of Western civilization.

[00:39:01]Starting with people like nature and Marx and Herbert Spencer and Fau ladies and gentlemen have created a culture when where we don't recognize our own true nature and our own true nature is bent around itself and that is the cause of our issue. That is the cause of our problems and it isn't something that is brought on to us from outside. It is something that we are born in and the Christian world calls it sin and it says the Christian world the Christian worldview says that to be set free from this we must place our faith not in a state not in a philosopher but in Jesus Christ. And the evidence for the reason why you should do that is because he rose from the dead. And then that sanctifying work will begin to change your life and the world around you for the better. That is why Christians ended the slave trade. That is why Christians fought for women's rights in India and China. That is why Christians fought against poverty in this country and were principally responsible for the founding of the welfare state in this country that dragged millions out of poverty like William Temple who is the Archbishop of Canterbury at the time of the establishment of the welfare state.

[00:40:44]It's why [screaming] Christians helped to found the Labor Party. [cheering] Christians change the world. But unlike communists, we do not change it through violent revolution and oppression and state control of individual lives. We change it by convincing you through words and works of love. Make your choice. A bloody communist revolution or a lifegiving revolution of the kingdom of God.

[00:41:23]Hey, you can do it.

[00:41:25]>> No, we can't.

[00:41:26]>> Why don't afterwards?

[00:41:28]>> You want to take questions and answers?

[00:41:29]>> Yeah, we can do questions. Yeah.

[00:41:30]>> You want I mean I think questions and answers challenge direct challenges afterwards. Have a session each to do that. Yeah. And then you can all vent your spleen against either of us. Yeah.

[00:41:40]Is that okay?

[00:41:41]>> No. No direct challenge.

[00:41:43]>> I I don't I don't mind whether you love me or not. really be honest with you.

[00:41:47]>> I'm not after love here. Really >> wouldn't be bad. It's not all of us.

[00:41:54]>> Okay. I am.

[00:41:56]>> Okay. Okay. So, >> three minutes ago.

[00:42:00]>> Yeah. So, there was a philosopher who inspired KL Marx who wrote a book called the essence of Christianity and his name was Ludvik Foyerbach. And in Ludvik Foyach's book he explained that man had created Christianity as a positive representation of the spirit of humanity. So the type of discussions which a lot of Christians are motivated around is this belief that humanity collectively combines, creates community, creates a higher order of spirituality and morality by their combination. Now Markx disagreed with this. He thought the combination was a product of society. Yes, a positive thing. Yes, but was a creation of the alienated nature of man which could be overcome. Thybach did not believe the alienation of man. Therefore, the belief that God made the world and we're subordinate to him could be overcome. He thought it was something we have to live with. We have to tolerate. We have to accept and perhaps ameliate the worst aspects of it. Whereas Markx argued you could overcome the alienation of man from themselves, from their collectivity. And that is only by recognizing that the world we have today, what makes man man, what makes humans humans is their ability to produce to change the external environment around them and their collectivity itself by their work with their hands and their brains. And I put it to you that everything in Christianity is also the product of physical work and the mental work of human beings.

[00:44:02]Christianity is Bibles is churches is icons is is is material resources to be shared to be lived collectively. And those are the preconditions for the creation of the collectivity of which we discussed. And we also argue that man wasn't made at a particular time. Man was CREATED BY THEIR OWN LABOR. Human beings were created from ape by the development of the ability to shake tools and shape nature and make tools, instruments and machines which then converted us themselves.

[00:44:42]But they also created man alienated from themselves in relation to what they make in relation to property. And therefore the ownership of property and control of property is a decisive phenomena. In my final 5 seconds I'd like to say this.

[00:44:59]>> We all watch the World Cup.

[00:45:01]>> And last week I was making fun. But what the World Cup does, what football does, okay, >> is show a a type of sport >> that everybody can understand, everybody, if you like, can determine what should happen here or there.

[00:45:17]>> And artificial intelligence provides the means for mankind to apply these type of approaches to all technological questions and material questions that humanity faces. Thank sorry for the extra few seconds. So ladies and gentlemen, if you want to ask either of us a question, put your hand up and then when you're selected, say who your question is for >> and shall we do two minutes.

[00:45:45]>> Two minutes. Two minutes. So who who's your question for?

[00:45:48]>> Both of you.

[00:45:49]>> Right. So two minutes each on the question. So what's your question?

[00:45:52]>> Okay. So both of you have spoken about AI and what AI should be doing, but you've not spoken about the the why. And you've also made the mistake of thinking that AI is somehow something that can be controlled. Let me say >> sorry, what's your question?

[00:46:09]>> It's open- source software. Anybody can get it. What what you need to be able to control it.

[00:46:16]>> Okay. Any questions, guys? Cuz she's just giving her own speech. Any questions? You need a powerful computer.

[00:46:24]>> Put your hand up if you got a question.

[00:46:26]>> Question.

[00:46:28]>> Right. If there are no questions, I'm going to go.

[00:46:30]>> What I'm saying is talking to you. She's she's making her own speech.

[00:46:33]>> What I'm saying is both Taiku and Bob have the possibility both and Bob have the possibility of having both their idealistic.

[00:46:43]>> You [music] want to join me for a coffee? Now's your chance.

[00:46:49]>> [music] [music]