Questioning Assumptions about the Hebrew Bible pt 1 of 2

[00:00:12]Hello, Evan.

[00:00:14]>> Hey, how's it going?

[00:00:16]>> Good. How are you?

[00:00:18]>> All right. How you doing?

[00:00:19]>> I'm doing well.

[00:00:22]So, the elders um said that you had some issues, topics, questions.

[00:00:28]>> Yeah. thought I might be able to help.

[00:00:31]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:00:33]So, I'm kind of like I don't really debate that much or >> Well, I'm not I'm not here to debate you. I'm here to answer questions or ask questions of >> Okay.

[00:00:43]>> things that you believe. I don't have any debate topic. If we were going to debate, we would have set that up before and I don't like debating. So, >> yeah, be doing that anyway.

[00:00:52]>> You sure about that?

[00:00:54]>> Yeah, it could have been more set up properly. So, I guess I guess um >> yeah, you're going to you're going to ask questions and I'm going to answer them if I can. And if you raise something that I think I want to have an answer to a question, I'll ask you. So, >> well, duh.

[00:01:09]>> Okay. Yeah. So, bas basically, [clears throat] you know, when you walk the streets, >> girl, I'm out here in these streets.

[00:01:17]>> Everyone's Well, the like Christian missionaries, they're always trying to convert you. They're trying to get you to come to Jesus, which they think is God or part God or I've met so many different Christians and they all have a different opinion of who Jesus is, how the God works, how like like there everyone's meaning is different. When I meet Jehovah, they don't believe in trinity. When I meet our Mormon friends right here, they they were unsure of the Trinity, but then they said there was a big head or >> Yeah, we don't believe in the Trinity.

[00:01:50]>> Okay, so you're Mormon, too. Okay. So, what what I say is you guys say you didn't believe it. But then when I spoke to them the other day, they said, "Yeah, but there's there's another understanding of it and they call it uh what do you guys call the God's head or something?"

[00:02:04]>> We believe in the God. We Yeah, we believe in the Godhead. We believe the father is the high God and that the f the son and the holy spirit are equal but subordinate deities.

[00:02:14]>> Okay. Yeah. So like it was kind of like a trinity a trinity.

[00:02:18]>> It's not like the trinity at all. So it's totally different. Okay. So >> yeah, the trinity is an ontological unity of of being.

[00:02:27]So it's it's a separation of persons but a unity of being which means there's only one God, one physical God and they all there's three persons within that one being. It's a mystery. It's incoherent and incomprehensible and we don't believe in it.

[00:02:46]>> It's confusing. Yeah.

[00:02:48]>> Well, it's not that it's confusing. It's intentionally. It's actually designed to be incoherent.

[00:02:53]>> Ironic, isn't it?

[00:02:54]>> Interesting. I like I like how you said that. Yeah. It just It didn't.

[00:02:58]>> It's not. It's not. And anybody who tries to explain it or says that they can explain it is actually not understanding it because by definition it is not comprehensible.

[00:03:08]>> Okay. Yeah. I like I like how you said that. Yeah. Cuz I was Yeah, it's not comprehensible. I like that.

[00:03:12]>> Well, and I'm not I'm not trying to straw man it. I'm actually It actually is. They call it the mystery of the trinity because the idea that there are three persons that exist as one being is not comprehensible. That's just not a thing that anybody can understand.

[00:03:25]>> Okay, I agree with that. Yeah.

[00:03:27]>> See, that don't make sense.

[00:03:29]>> So, besides that, um I So, just so you know about me, I didn't grow up in religious. I didn't grow up in any religion. Um my parents, I guess you could say my mother would grew up in like Catholic church and then a Protestant church. And then my dad has Jewish siblings. And I had the opportunity to go visit Israel. And I think that's how my spirituality journey started. I just kind of want to know what was going on because, you know, I have all these friends that are pushing Islam and Muhammad on me. Then I have so many different Christian friends as we grew up in Canada. So then I have people telling me, "Oh, the Trinity or you need Jesus or you go to hell for eternity.

[00:04:08]You need Jesus to save you for your sins. You need you need Jesus.

[00:04:13]is the way, the light, the truth, and you and these are all different Christianities. And then I'm like, well, my other Christian friends said this, and then that Christian will say no.

[00:04:20]>> I mean, generally speaking, the identification of being a Christian, Latter- Day Saints use the term more generally than other Christians do. So, your evangelicals, your Protestants are going to use Christian pretty exclusively, and they're going to say that you have to believe certain things specifically, and if you don't believe them, you're not a Christian. Latter-day Saints simply identify a Christian as anybody who a claims to be one and b believes in Jesus of Nazareth and his teachings. Now, there's more there's more to unpack that you can add to that, but generally speaking, if somebody says they're a Christian, I'm not going to argue with them. [applause] >> Yeah. Oh, I don't I don't really I don't really get too much into it, >> but typically all Christians will agree >> that Jesus through his death and resurrection >> did something that allows us to be reconciled to God and that's that's going to be consistent with all Christians.

[00:05:20]>> Okay. So, even though there's some differences, you're right. There there are some stuff that they all agree on, >> right? Yeah. I mean, we'll have to otherwise the term would be completely meaningless. But I mean, I think the term is effectively meaningless anyway in the sense that um people say I'm a Christian and I'm not a Christian and you're a Christian. He's a I don't I don't really concern myself. I I believe that I follow Jesus of Nazareth and that's and if you want to call that a Christian, that's fine. If not, I don't really care that about that either.

[00:05:50]>> Okay. So um so the reason why I was telling you some of the stories is because I it was always confusing for me. So I'm like well I don't get this Christian is calling this Catholic not a real Christian and this Catholic like oh they're crazy and then this Christian believes this thing this Christian believes in not the trinity the trinity the trinity this that son only son of God then is God. So you know it was really confusing for me. So, so when I had the chance to go to Israel, I made all these connections and I've been there three times now and talk. We have the internet now, so we can you don't have to go to Israel, but um when I was speaking out like just like like rabbis and people that can read the original Hebrew and people and and going back to the original scriptures, I want to know even though I'm not Jewish, I don't consider myself any kind of relig.

[00:06:33]>> Well, what makes you think that the Hebrew scriptures are scripture?

[00:06:37]Because first of all, the whole New Testament quotes the Hebrew scriptures.

[00:06:45]>> What makes you think that the New Testament has any valid opinion on that?

[00:06:49]>> Like what do you mean valid opinion though? Like like >> Well, just because another document quotes a prior document doesn't mean either document's valid.

[00:06:58]>> Well, when I when I read, we can get into this. This can be our first topic. When I get when I read how the how the New Testament started with the virgin birth, Mary Gabriel, >> it doesn't start with that.

[00:07:12]>> Well, it said it said Gab uh Gabriel Dab >> the first document that was authored for the New Testament. It was probably probably first Thessalonians.

[00:07:22]>> So So how does the how does um the whole however I say this, don't ever take it offense. Just just how I speak. How how did the whole Jesus narrative story start? Wasn't he not consumed uh virgin birth?

[00:07:36]>> Well, historically, there's actually a if you're talking historically rather than what people believe, the belief that Jesus was born of Mary who conceived him without knowing a man.

[00:07:50]That is a traditional Christian belief.

[00:07:52]I accept that. But historically, a historian can't can't speak to that because the idea that somebody uh procreatates through they just have a child without any sexual relationship with another person, that that's just not that's just not how human procreation works. So, the fact that people developed a tradition that Mary did not know a man is that's a nice story, but a historian wouldn't look at that seriously because you can't because there's no way to support that kind of a claim. The other issue is is Mark and John don't ever talk about a virgin anything. So, Matthew and Luke both have components of their gospels that identify a virgin birth. And there is a claim that in Micah there's a prophecy that there that that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem and of a virgin and those kinds of things. And that's fine, but I mean you have to evaluate those claims historically if you're trying to do so based on evidence. But if you want to say belief, then yeah, you could say Matthew and Luke claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. I just believe everything that they wrote, so I'm just going to accept that.

[00:09:06]>> Yeah. So through faith, I guess that's why it's called faith.

[00:09:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. You just have to believe it.

[00:09:12]You choose to believe it or you choose not to. Right.

[00:09:14]>> So I guess that's one reason why we're here is because I'm trying to when when when they >> Yeah. But I'm asking you why you believe the Hebrew scriptures are valid or scripture. Why are why are they relevant? Why do they matter?

[00:09:25]>> Well, the a lot of prophecies in the in Well, yeah. All because >> a lot of prophecies like what? Um, how about the Jews returning after 3,000 years and being killed?

[00:09:37]>> Is that a prophecy?

[00:09:39]>> You want You want the scripture for the prophecies where the Jews would >> Yeah. I want something that identifies So something that identifies the specific event that you're saying was fulfilled later.

[00:09:51]that would mean you you'd have to prove that the that the document that you're referencing was written before the event and is also specifically referring to the event that occurred after the document was written.

[00:10:05]>> Yeah.

[00:10:06]>> Prove both of those things. Otherwise, it's not a otherwise you're just opining that it's a prophecy. You can't prove it.

[00:10:12]>> Well, like in Deuteronomy when it says um when he when he gives the Jews the blessings and curses, he says, you know, if you don't follow me, you'll be kicked out of your land. you'll have no rain.

[00:10:21]And then he says, "But but when you >> kicked out their land multiple times, though."

[00:10:25]>> Well, that's why it's in Deuteronomy.

[00:10:26]It's in the beginning of the Torah, right? And and >> well, no, because that again, that's that's assuming that Deuteronomy was written before those things happened.

[00:10:35]>> Well, I mean, if if you believe in the any scriptures at all, Moses [clears throat] got it before he >> That's what I'm saying is is believing in any scriptures at all. What makes you believe in any scriptures at all? What's your basis for believing in any scriptures at all? Why do you do that?

[00:10:52]>> Well, well, so I guess that's what we're talking right now is is like when it says the Jews would return out of the field we were talking about that.

[00:11:00]So, so like when the Jews had lived there, they had kingdoms there.

[00:11:04]>> Okay, let's let's do it this way. Maybe it'll just to clarify for me because I I tend to be a little slow in this way.

[00:11:10]Um, what verses are you referring to specifically? So, I can read them and say, "Okay, these verses and you can tell me what you think they mean."

[00:11:19]>> Okay. Um, there there's Deuteronomy 30 verse three verses 3 and 5 in the Torah.

[00:11:28]>> Okay. Hold on just a second.

[00:11:31]Verse Deuteronomy 30.

[00:11:34]>> And I just chatted this quick. I have so many written down in the book in my notes and stuff, but it says like the Lord will restore restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and he will gather you again from the peoples where the Lord has scattered you.

[00:11:46]>> Yeah. So which which uh which verses >> uh Deuteronomy verse 3 and 5 I'm looking at right now >> 30:3 and 5.

[00:11:55]>> Yeah. So just this is so Yeah. So the Deuteronomy they I don't know if you've ever read any books about the composition of the Pentatuk.

[00:12:09]Have you ever read books about the composition of the >> I've read I've read I've read different opinions from scholars how they put together different times maybe maybe >> Yeah. Yeah. And so that's that's the issue with these. So the way a scholar, a historian would look at these is, for example, if you have a reference in the text of something happening and it referring to a specific event, a historian concludes that that was written after the event.

[00:12:35]So they would date that material unless they have some reason not to, they would date that material to after the event that it's recording. So if they're talking about an exile or something like that, then they're going to conclude that that section was written after the exile >> because it's referring to the event.

[00:12:53]>> So So that's what that scholar or historian might >> Well, that's what they would have to they have to do that. They they can't not do that unless they have specific evidence of it being authored before the event.

[00:13:07]So, >> so, so for example, if I if I sent you a letter >> and the letter said the and I sent you a letter tomorrow, right? And I said I said, "Evan, um, you and I, Evan, you don't know me. My name is Travis. You and I are going to have a discussion on July 9th and we'll talk about the Bible." and I send that to you, but I date it on the 4th of July.

[00:13:41]>> Okay.

[00:13:42]>> Are you going to believe that letter is a prophecy?

[00:13:45]>> Well, how about this?

[00:13:46]>> Something that that would happen five days in advance or are you going to believe that I wrote that after July 9th?

[00:13:52]>> Well, let let's look at let's look at like what >> No. Yeah. Just just what do you what would you do? I mean, if I did that, if I say I say, "Hey, hey, you know what, Evan, >> I'm a prophet and I actually foretold that you and I would speak, I'll send you the letter."

[00:14:09]>> And I send you a letter that's dated July 4th >> and I say, "I was taken away in a vision and I saw you and I having a conversation on the 9th."

[00:14:18]>> Now that we've had >> Yeah. And I would send that letter to you. Would you think that that's a legit prophecy?

[00:14:25]>> I suppose so.

[00:14:27]>> No. No. I think I think that'd be that'd be tricky. That'd be like that'd be dishonest and >> Right. You you Well, right. But but what if I said, "No, no, Evan. No, seriously.

[00:14:37]I did write this letter on the 4th of July."

[00:14:40]>> You sure about that? You sure about that?

[00:14:44]>> And then you and then something came true, right? Or something like Yeah.

[00:14:47]>> Yeah. And then And then you and I actually did have a conversation on the 9th. And I'm sending you my letter on the 10th because I want you to understand that I'm a prophet.

[00:14:55]>> Yeah. You know, I I'd have to there'd have to be more more than just that to >> Right. Exactly.

[00:15:01]>> Yeah. That's exactly what I'm saying.

[00:15:02]So, when a when a historian, a scholar of the Bible reads a passage that's talking about something, so if it says, "Hey, there's going to be an exile and the Israelites will be gathered and they'll be restored to their land." I'm not going to conclude that that was written before the event happened unless there is some very good evidence for me to conclude otherwise. So, I'm going to conclude that this was written after the event unless somebody can prove to me it was written before.

[00:15:35]>> Oh no, we've become so smart. They're stupid to us.

[00:15:38]>> Okay, so I'll prove to you. So, we have the Dead Sea Scrolls that were >> Dead Sea Scrolls postdate this stuff by many thousands of years. That doesn't work.

[00:15:47]>> No, no. The Dead Sea the Dead Sea Scrolls are dated to the to 200 BC >> BC. And the Jews only return in 1948.

[00:15:58]>> What?

[00:16:00]>> Again, what what are you referring to as something that's fulfilled in 1948?

[00:16:05]>> So, we have scriptures saying that the Jews would be scattered all over the earth, which they are >> in one day.

[00:16:14]>> I understand that. But that also is identifiable. That could be referencing the exilic period where they were taken captive by Assyria and Babylon >> and restored to their lands.

[00:16:27]>> Well, there's but there's also scriptures that say when they return, they won't be uplifted again. So So we know that hasn't happened yet. This could be the time it's happening >> again. That could just be an error.

[00:16:38]>> An error that that that they returned. So yeah, I would just conclude that's a mistake.

[00:16:48]That person didn't that person didn't actually have a fulfilled prophecy because they said that they would be scattered, which they were with by Babylon and Assyria. They were scattered. They were actually specifically scattered by God after Solomon's betrayal. He said that the that the nations would be separated and divided.

[00:17:06]>> He did it himself.

[00:17:08]>> So yeah, >> let's talk about the Let's talk about the Babylon XL then. Daniel prophesied that they would return and they did return and they built their temple.

[00:17:16]>> I I understand that. But again, the people don't date those texts to the pre-exilic period. They date them they date them much later than the in the post exilic >> period. Not the scholars I read up on.

[00:17:29]So you have >> again that's what again but again you're going to also have to identify that biblical scholars carry into it um me well they have their purpose and for what they write and their bias. So if I'm a an evangelical Christian scholar, I am going to and I believe that the Bible is inherent and perfect and everything it says is true, then that's going to bias my logical and objective conclusions because I can't conclude that Daniel was written after Daniel because that would undermine his being a prophet.

[00:18:07]>> So I won't conclude that. That's just a bias on my part. So, so what about historically factual how um was it I think it was the kingdom of Judah defeated Israel and Assyria when they came to attack King Aaz in Isaiah.

[00:18:24]>> Mhm.

[00:18:26]>> That's factual. That's history. That's scripture.

[00:18:29]>> Again, when was Isaiah written?

[00:18:33]>> Was Isaiah was written around that time?

[00:18:36]Like I can look it up like >> Yeah. So people conclude that there's actually so most scholars believe in in Isaiah, Deuteria, and trio Isaiah. So there's actually three Isaiah, three not not authors, but three groups that authored Isaiah. They don't believe it was even authored by a single person at a single time. Now there are scholars who disagree with that and they believe that Isaiah and dudero Isaiah were written together and they were written in the pre-exilic period. There are scholars who conclude that.

[00:19:04]But the issue with it is it's true to Isaiah is actually not really debated that it that it's it's a subsequent section of texts the last okay you know 15 or so chapters. So the issue with it is again is I I think that these are unsettled questions. So >> and the reason I'm bringing it up is not that I have a a care one way or the other. It's that these are not arguments that are settled or concluded. I can find as many scholars that conclude an opposite opinion from what you're presenting as you can in favor of your opinion.

[00:19:41]>> So, >> and they have very exhaustive reasons for why they believe what they do.

[00:19:45]>> You can go back and forth on that. I've studied a lot of scholars who who some are for it, some are against it, >> some are well credited.

[00:19:51]>> So, what makes you what makes you decide one over the other? Why do you choose these scholars opinions that you like over these scholars opinions you disagree with? Well, I I actually do have faith in the scriptures and and I like when I >> But why why do you have faith in the scriptures?

[00:20:06]>> Well, for example, I I do believe what Daniel wrote about when he was in captivity did happen after. Now, I do believe he was studying >> and you believe he wrote it.

[00:20:15]>> Yeah.

[00:20:16]>> Okay.

[00:20:18][clears throat] >> And um >> why why do you believe that?

[00:20:21]>> Just because every everything that was written it like it happened like the how was written >> again. You think it did >> the timing. You think it you think it did.

[00:20:30]>> Okay. So, >> but there's actually [clears throat] yeah exter external historical sources from the Bible disagree with a lot of the events that are recorded in the whole in the Old Testament.

[00:20:39]>> So, um >> so so okay besides we can talk about this scripture and you can say well I don't really that I don't really believe that it could happen like this maybe it did happen. A lot of scholars that you agree would say it could be written but this that >> no it's not a matter of me agreeing with them. I'm not saying I agree with them.

[00:20:56]I'm saying that that your conclusion based off of, for example, it's scripture because it has fulfilled prophecy. That's not an objective claim.

[00:21:06]That's a claim you're making. Some people would agree with it and they would mount arguments in favor of it.

[00:21:13]But just as many arguments as you would mount in favor of it can be mounted against that proposition.

[00:21:18]>> That's not a definitive conclusion.

[00:21:20]That's not a reason to believe.

[00:21:22]>> So I think Yeah. So I think then maybe you would come down to faith.

[00:21:24]>> Ding ding ding. What do we have for you, Johnny?

[00:21:27]>> So, it's kind of like when I read the the Hebrew scriptures, it's a lot of it's written. There is some third person written and you hear that's how they wrote back then, but there's definitely first person um writings in all the scriptures like like where Jeremiah says, "I spoke to the Lord or Isaiah says," >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there's there's also too much like for example, there's too much that's also written as as a story, right?

[00:21:54]But but the thing about the gospels is none of them are written first person.

[00:21:57]They're all written in third person. And they were >> I know but but again like most of the Hebrew scriptures are written as a story. They're not written in the first person either.

[00:22:07]>> So for example, the entire book of Genesis cannot be written in the first person.

[00:22:12]>> Well, because you're saying Moses wrote it down, right?

[00:22:14]>> No. Again, it doesn't matter. It it's it can't be written in the first person because No, I don't believe Moses wrote it. No. But >> okay. Okay. But >> none what what I'm saying is none of the book of Genesis can be a firsthand account because the book of Genesis even if you believe Moses is the author >> it it is writing over a thousand years after the events it records if not thousands of years after the events it records. So there's no way that any of that like Abraham is not recording what Abraham did or any of that. Moses is doing it thousands of years later, hundreds of years later at least.

[00:22:54]>> No, that would be like the prophetic revelation that came from God. So he >> Right. Right. But that's again that's just a claim you're making that go that Moses. But here's the other problem is that the argument that Moses wrote um any of of the books that are called the books of No, the the Pentatuk is also problematic because of what they contain, right?

[00:23:18]So, like for example, if you go to Numbers chapter 12, which is one of my it's one of my favorite chapters in Numbers anyway. Um he [clears throat] says um let's see.

[00:23:37]Um in verse three, it says this. Um so Aaron and Miriam are are kind of complaining against Moses.

[00:23:46]>> Okay. And the Lord, it says, "And the Lord heard it." And and then it says in verse three, "Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth." Do you think Moses wrote that?

[00:24:03]No. The man Moses was very humble. Well, it because from my understanding is a lot of the writings where there's definitely first person in all of the Hebrew scriptures.

[00:24:15]>> No. Yeah. that there that there's first person. Yes, of course there is. But again, it says >> but look at look at what's not there.

[00:24:21]What's not first person? Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam.

[00:24:27]>> Who's that?

[00:24:29]>> Who's who's writing that?

[00:24:30]>> The Lord said to So I guess >> Aaron and Miriam is that >> so Moses writing but he's writing as in third person so we can understand it.

[00:24:39]It's like when God says I have a hand or >> again but but see that's you concluding that Moses is the author and then identifying that he's writing in the third person.

[00:24:49]>> It's a two place way.

[00:24:50]>> Yeah. Well that that's just that's what I've been taught and told and it's a belief I guess. Well, no, that's again that's I know but that's not a belief that that a a scholar would hold because they would say it's odd for somebody to say now the man Moses was very humble more so than anyone on the face of the earth and then keep writing with suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam.

[00:25:12]>> So >> this sounds like somebody telling a story that they heard.

[00:25:16]>> Is that the next verse? Suddenly >> suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, come out of you three tents of meetings. So the three of them came out again, the three of them. See, if it was Moses writing in the first person, he would say, um, while we were at Hezeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against me.

[00:25:39]>> Yeah.

[00:25:39]>> Because of the Kushite woman whom I had married, and they said to me, "Has the Lord spoken only through you, Moses?

[00:25:49]And and has he not also spoken through us?

[00:25:53]And and the Lord heard it. That's fine.

[00:25:55]And the Lord heard it.

[00:25:58]And but then he would write, "Now the man," he would say, "I was the most humble of anybody on the face of the earth." But instead, it says, "Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone on the face of the earth."

[00:26:10]>> Now, even if he's writing in the third person, that's a very odd thing to say about yourself that you're the most humble person on earth. So back in back in the day though it like when you read even scholars I've actually heard scholars say this. People would write in third person to tell the story to make the reader understand better.

[00:26:25]>> No that's fine. That's a fine claim. But what's your basis for believing that back in the day that's what they did because that's that's actually not not correct because there's lots of examples of people writing in the first person.

[00:26:39]>> Well I know even number even Moses there's a lot of first person too. Well, again, again, you're already assuming he wrote this. So, you see what I'm saying?

[00:26:49]>> You including Moses wrote these books.

[00:26:52]>> I mean, it's just like he How do you write about his death? Like when he's dead or whatever.

[00:26:56]>> Yeah. He Yeah. He writes about his own death >> and Moses went and died and was buried.

[00:27:01]Why? How would Moses write that?

[00:27:03]>> Well, because you got to remember he's in front of God face to face and he he's he's revelation. He can write about the past, present, future.

[00:27:12]again, Evan. But again, those are understand though, those are again those are belief claims that you're holding.

[00:27:20]Those aren't those aren't arguments >> that make sense.

[00:27:24]>> So I guess I guess >> those aren't those aren't logically factual arguments that somebody writes about their death after they're dead or before they die. They say, "And then I went and I died and I was buried."

[00:27:36]>> So I guess I guess this is a faith and a belief. That's why it's called a faith and a belief. But that's >> or you're just wrong about the author >> or the more the more natural conclusion would be somebody who is not Moses wrote these.

[00:27:53]>> That that that could be possibility. I guess >> that would be that would actually be the most logical possibility is Moses didn't write it, somebody else did.

[00:28:01]>> Can you imagine? Unless you had like some crazy revelation and any >> Well, unless you have something to support that Moses wrote it, which you don't. There isn't anything that supports that Moses wrote these texts because they're not written as though Moses wrote them. Like Genesis doesn't say anywhere that Moses wrote the texts.

[00:28:19]>> The only the only like like things that would support it would be like like I said like um uh all all we don't have cell phones or communication until like recently and back in the day when all the Jews were split up. They all knew how to be circumcised and knew how to do it properly. They all knew how to keep the kosher laws. They all knew how to put on fulfillment. They all like like all all the blessings and curses and curses in the Torah has happened. Like when I say has happened, like you said, they've been Babylon returned.

[00:28:45]>> I'm not I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying.

[00:28:48]>> What I'm saying is though, everything that was told in the Torah has like been happening if you don't if you don't obey or follow. See, I could just disagree because what what you're actually reading is you're reading somebody recording events after they occurred and then writing about them as though they have not occurred so that they can look like prophecies.

[00:29:13]I can and that would be the more logical like I said with like my letter example.

[00:29:17]If I write you a letter, if I send you a copy of a letter that's dated the 4th of July that says Evan and Travis will have a conversation on the 9th.

[00:29:27]>> Yeah. and I send that letter to you tomorrow, you're not going to believe I wrote it on the 4th of July. You're going to believe I wrote it yesterday tomorrow because we hadn't had the conversation yet. The lo the natural logical conclusion is is that >> I'm recording something after it happened rather than before it happened because that's not that's the normal logical conclusion that a person would reach. If you want to believe otherwise, you're going to have to mount more evidence for that argument than just >> Well, that's why that's why I gave you I'm like, man, how did when when um God Okay, for like this is what I'm trying to tell you. All the empires against the Jews have disappeared.

[00:30:07]>> And God says, >> well, I don't see no Egyptian dynasty or empire. I don't see no Roman Empire. I don't see even Hitler disappeared. I like where's the Babylonian Empire? like the everyone who's gone against the Jews have disappeared from history.

[00:30:21]>> Sure, there's Italian.

[00:30:23]>> I I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's a lot of conflict in the Middle East >> and there has been since >> uninterrupted since >> So, where's Persia? Where's the Babylonian Empire? Where's the Roman Empire? Where's the Egyptian?

[00:30:37]>> Well, >> well, they used to dominate. Now they're not. There's no no more of them. Again, that that a that a a specific governmental entity dissolves into something different doesn't mean that opposition against a group hasn't has ceased because that's not true. I don't know if you're aware of this, but Israel is been almost continuously in conflict since 1948.

[00:31:01]>> Yeah. Well, it says it says that these are other things. They they've been doing well because militarily they're supported by the United States and other countries that are western superpowers who are supporting them.

[00:31:15]>> So yeah, they've done well because they've had incredible military technology and they've had a lot of support.

[00:31:22]>> So yeah, they they they they beat they, you know, they they they have been able to maintain their defensive lines certainly. And everything you you just described um is all in scriptures that were written before they returned because even in the Dead Sea Scrolls that we know were dated back like you said 200 B.CE. And all >> where does it where does it talk about the events of 1948 and after >> like the Holocaust where it says the Jews would be set in other countries and be treated like [ __ ] And >> again, where where are you where are you reading this specifically? Like what what verses are you looking at and saying this is talking about those things?

[00:32:06]Because this is the problem, Evan. What the way you're reading the text basically is I want these things to be legitimate and I want them to be prophecies. I want them to be legitimate prophecies. So I am going to find verses and I'm going to interpret them in a way that supports the conclusion that they're prophetic. But but we have verses that say the Jews would be scattered into the nations which we already seen.

[00:32:30]>> Again, that doesn't mean again the Jew the fact that a small group of odd weirdos would be conquered and scattered is not that big of a stretch of a prophecy.

[00:32:43]>> So So when it so when it says I would scatter you among the nations and you'll find no rest and you'll be trembling out of fear >> after they had been. Yes. that what they looked at because they just got they just returned now in 1848.

[00:32:56]>> No, no. What I'm saying is is that that again that that again what passage are you looking at specifically?

[00:33:03]>> That's Deuteronomy 28 64 and 65.

[00:33:07]>> Deuteronomy [clears throat] 28. Okay.

[00:33:09]>> Verses 64 and 55. And these are >> and there's tons of verses. There's >> um >> let's just let's Okay.

[00:33:17]>> And this was written before they returned after 1948.

[00:33:19]>> Okay. So, what's going on in this chapter?

[00:33:23]>> God telling about his blessings and curses. Like, if if what's the what's the context of the chapter? What's going on >> of the whole chapter?

[00:33:30]>> I I don't I don't remember. So, >> Oh, no. I just >> Who's talking, who's writing, who's what are they talking about? What's the subject matter?

[00:33:39]>> Well, traditionally, it's God speaking to Moses and Moses writing down my belief.

[00:33:44]>> No, no, no. I I understand that, but that doesn't tell me what why. So why is some why is Deuteronomy 28 being written?

[00:33:51]>> So God so God's telling um the nation what will happen if they don't obey and what would happen if they do obey and one of the the the punishments I guess would be the Lord will scatter you among the the peoples of the earth >> that's that's always the case. So if you do not diligently observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, then the Lord will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies. This is very common language of the Near East um cultures.

[00:34:30]>> Yeah. So So I'm looking at at it how it was told to the Jews, >> right? Right. And I understand that.

[00:34:35]This is just common language that a priestly class would tell their group in any culture of this time. And then he says this, he will bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were in dread and they shall cling to you. Okay.

[00:34:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. This is this is a theme throughout all the Hebrew scriptures.

[00:34:55]>> All right. Every other malady and affliction even though not even though not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will inflict on you until you are destroyed. Okay. So, are you saying this happened?

[00:35:07]>> I'm saying all of these things that God spoke about to the nation of Israel has happened. Yes. They they've [clears throat] been in other nations, other countries. They've been hurt.

[00:35:14]They've been >> I understand that. But this is them being punished for not keeping Torah.

[00:35:19]>> Yes.

[00:35:21]>> Okay. So, when did they not keep Torah that they are being afflicted?

[00:35:27]>> Well, they're human. They've messed up all the time. There's a lot of >> I know. But they also have repentance.

[00:35:32]Yep. And and that's why God there's other scriptures where God I can show you the scriptures where God says even if I destroy like all of you I'll always you >> that's what I'm saying. So, can you point to me because what you're actually I mean I honestly I'm not I don't mean to offend you, but what you're actually claiming or saying can actually be construed as incredibly anti-Semitic because it is the argument that the Jews basically have suffered because they deserve it because they haven't kept their law.

[00:36:02]>> That's not anti-semitic. I have Jewish blood. I'm not trying to be anti-semitic. I'm telling you it's >> No, but that that claim that claim is anti-semitic. That's basically saying the Jews deserve what they got.

[00:36:13]>> That that's between God and them. I don't know. I'm telling you what God said, though.

[00:36:15]>> Right. Do you think that the Jews deserved the Holocaust? That that was a punishment of God on them.

[00:36:21]>> Do I think that the Jews deserve the call? I don't I don't know who those Jews were. I don't I wasn't there at that time. I don't know.

[00:36:26]>> No, no. I mean, we're talking 6 million Jews. Nearly I mean, nearly a I think it's close to half, if not a quarter.

[00:36:34]No, >> if not a half of all Jews were were decimated by the Nazis.

[00:36:38]>> Yeah. I think humans do disgusting things and I and I think >> well I understand that but do you believe that that is a fulfillment of a prophecy where God is punishing them for not keeping to >> I'm just I'm reading what the scripture says and the scripture says that God >> Evan I that's again I I understand what you're saying but I'm asking you a question it's a very direct question very specific question do you believe >> I think well that question >> the Holocaust was a punishment against Israel for the Israelites not keeping Torah No, I I I like like that. I don't have to like think about that whole situation. I think God does punish people for not believing in his for not following his goodwill like his will.

[00:37:19]Like I I >> Well, he this is the God of Israel and he's only covenanted with Israel in these texts.

[00:37:27]>> Yeah. But but but humanity >> this has no So basically what you're arguing is this has no bearing on me.

[00:37:33]I'm not an Israelite.

[00:37:35]But but the humans have the Noahide laws from my understanding. And they have what now?

[00:37:41]>> The Noahide laws.

[00:37:43]>> Why? Why would that matter?

[00:37:46]>> Because because God will judge everybody. Like it's not God's not here just for >> Again, not the God of Israel. The God of Israel will judge Israel.

[00:37:54]>> No, because the God of Israel is also the God of Adam and Eve.

[00:37:57]>> No, he's not. He's the God of Israel.

[00:38:00]>> So So who created Adam and Eve?

[00:38:03]>> Again, the the story of the Okay. The story of the Hebrew Bible is the story of the of the Israelites and their God.

[00:38:11]It's not the story of everybody. It's the story of how Israel came to be.

[00:38:16]>> So, how so how does what what do you think Genesis is about? And Noah Noah was well, look at look at this. Look look at look at a couple of things real quick.

[00:38:25]>> Um if you look at Genesis chapter 1, um there's a couple of odd things that that are occurring in the text. So first of all um Genesis chapter 1 begins with when God began to create the heavens and the earth right the earth was complete chaos darkness covered the face of the deep right >> so the earth already exists when he begins to create there's already stuff because it says >> when God says he created the heaven and the earth yeah but in verse two it says the earth was complete chaos and darkness covered at the face of the deep.

[00:39:04]So God when he begins to create the earth is already there and it's in chaos.

[00:39:12]>> Uh I've never heard that. I I heard >> well that's what this is saying. It doesn't matter that you've never heard it. It's just what Genesis >> in Genesis chapter 1 it says when God began to create the heavens and the earth the earth was complete chaos and darkness covered the face of it while the wind of God swept over the face of the waters. So God is what this is conveying is God is approaching an existing waters with land inside of it and he approaches it and it's in chaos. So he finds it that way. Then he begins to separate and divide and to organize this chaos into something that's habitable.

[00:39:53]>> So that's not that's not how I read that. I read he created the heavens and the earth.

[00:39:56]>> It doesn't matter how you read it.

[00:39:57]That's how it reads.

[00:39:59]>> That's You read it, too. No, cuz that's how you read it. I'm telling you >> that's not how I'm reading it. That's that's actually what it what it says.

[00:40:07]>> I hear Genesis 1:1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

[00:40:11]>> I understand that, but that's that is not correct in the Hebrew.

[00:40:15]>> It's it's an it's a Yeah. Again, >> in the Hebrew, the beginning is when God began to create. It's an opening clause.

[00:40:27]and scholar, Hebrew biblical scholars, AJ Lavine, Markx V. Breler and others who who've written the JPS, the Tanakh, and other other scholarly works will tell you this is just the way this Hebrew reads. I don't know any Hebrew scholar that disagrees with this. I >> and if you know one that says that God basically blinked things into existence out of nothing and that that's what Genesis is saying, let me know who it is because I don't know of one.

[00:40:55]>> You know, even even rabbis like they have like a lot of open interpretations, but like how I read it is like even Isaiah >> so look at this as an interpretation.

[00:41:03]Verse six, and God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters and let it separate the waters from the waters."

[00:41:12]So God made the dome and he separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. So God calls the dome sky and there was evening and there was morning the second day. So what happens is is that he takes the land and to separate out the seas because the ancient Israelites believe that the earth was flat and it had a dome over the top of it and that on top of the dome was water and that's why the sky is blue and that's why it looks like how do you know they believe in that though because I was >> because that's what the biblical texts are reflecting. That's what it's saying.

[00:41:49]>> But that's how you're interpreting it though because when I >> I'm not interpreting it. Listen, how do I interpret this? Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters.

[00:41:58]Let it separate the waters from the waters. The waters from the waters. And then it goes more specific. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome. So there's a dome and the waters under the dome.

[00:42:11]>> Well, you do know there's >> separates the waters under the dome from the waters above the dome.

[00:42:16]>> But you know there's oceans under the earth, right?

[00:42:19]>> No, there's no oceans under the earth.

[00:42:22]There's more water.

[00:42:23]>> There's nothing under you know what's under the earth?

[00:42:26]>> Nothing.

[00:42:27]>> If you if you Google Google how much water is under the earth's crust, there's more water under the earth than the >> No, no. You're talking about the surface of the planet.

[00:42:37]Under the earth.

[00:42:40]If you're talking about the earth, >> oh, you're talking about earth as in land because that's what earth means. So when bo God began to create the heavens and the earth, this is only referring to our our what we can see with our eyeballs. This is not talking about the earth and then the heavens where God lives. That's not what talking about that. It's talking about the land and the sky because that's what heaven and earth means.

[00:43:10]>> Oh well, when I hear heavens, I have to think of a different realm like with the angels. That's not what it's talking about because it says that the heavens are what's above the earth.

[00:43:20]>> Well, how how I've been told by rabbis and even Christians. That's the only >> Again, I I don't know who these rabbis are, but I I don't know many rabbis who would repeat what you're saying.

[00:43:31]>> Okay. Well, when I hear heavens, I think of like the heavenly realm and like a different >> I understand that, but that's not what this is referring to. This is referring to the sky and the land.

[00:43:42]>> Okay. Okay. Well, if if it is, and like I said, I have to look more into it.

[00:43:45]Like, um, if it is, then maybe that's how maybe that's how God did it. Like, >> well, again, I again, you're assuming that any of this is historical and actually happened because the only way that this could possibly I mean, this is just a creation story that's been generated by ancient Israelites. But here's here's the other issue is we talked about that this is about the nation of Israel, right?

[00:44:12]Oh, wait. Hold up. We We just told you we totally skipped drama because you're saying the God of Israel is not the God of >> That's what I'm going That's what I'm going back to. Yeah, I'm not skipping.

[00:44:21]So, like for example, after it says Cain said to his So, Cain um in verse chapter 4, it says Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let us go out in the field." And when they were in the field, Cain rose up versus this in verse 8, chapter 4, "Rose up against his brother Abel and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain,"Where is your brother Abel? So, first of all, why doesn't God know where his brother is?

[00:44:45]I don't know. But apparently he does.

[00:44:48]>> He did know. He did know. He was asking like a question.

[00:44:51]>> I I don't I don't know that he's asking rhetorically because he actually says, "Where is your brother Abel?"

[00:44:57]>> Well, there's a >> If you want to believe if you want to believe that's a rhetorical question, you can believe that. But that's not what he says.

[00:45:03]>> Well, yeah. No, I know that's how he says, and then you can look at it how you want to look at it. I'm talking about is a moral God. He's here to teach us lessons. text lie.

[00:45:12]>> Again, Evan, I understand that, but that's what I'm trying to separate out.

[00:45:15]I'm trying to separate what the text says and what you think it says.

[00:45:19]>> Yeah. Well, that's how I'm being trained to listen to the rabbis and they teach me.

[00:45:23]>> Which rabbis?

[00:45:25]>> Any rabbi can answer me. You can Google any rabbi right now. Ask them what they think. Ask get 10. You might get 10 different opinions. But >> I understand that. That's But again, that that means that you're just deciding what you want to believe about the text.

[00:45:36]>> That's how I feel. That's how I feel about you guys though because >> no no no again Evan again I'm not doing that here and I'll explain how I why I mean that by that >> so it means what >> it says in verse 10 it says and the Lord said what have you done right >> where is your brother >> I do not know am I my brother's and the Lord said what have you done listen your brother's blood is crying out to me from the ground >> okay >> and now you are cursed from the ground which has opened opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it will no longer yield to you its strength.

[00:46:14]You'll be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth. Okay. So, yeah, when he says, "Where is your brother Abel?" You're right now, because if you keep reading, the Lord said, "What have you done?

[00:46:27]Listen, your brother's blood is crying out from the ground." So, because the Lord actually clarifies in the story that your brother's blood is talking to me, then yes, I can assume that God already knows that Abel is dead and he's just trying to call Cain to account for it.

[00:46:45]>> Exactly. That's >> Yeah.

[00:46:47]>> But again, but you saying But if I if I don't have that additional text, I can't just assume he's asking him rhetorically.

[00:46:56]>> Well, that's why you got to read context. Are you just saying back to me what I am saying?

[00:47:02]>> I understand that. But that's what I'm saying. But without that additional specific context, your conclusion that he's saying, "Where is your brother Abel?"

[00:47:12]And me saying, "Well, it doesn't look like God knows where Abel is."

[00:47:16]>> Okay. But >> which >> I've read a little bit of context.

[00:47:20]>> Yeah. But if you keep reading, >> but if you leave the camera rolling, >> he says, "Your brother's blood is crying out to me." This is God saying, "I know that he's dead."

[00:47:31]>> Yeah.

[00:47:33]>> Right. So, yeah. So, that's the issue, right? And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth out of your blood's blood. Right. But then Cain says this in verse 13. Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is greater than I can bear. Today you have driven me away from the soil and I shall be hidden from your face. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth and anyone who meets me may kill me.

[00:48:01]>> Okay. Who the hell is he talking about will kill him?

[00:48:05]>> Maybe other people on earth.

[00:48:07]>> Who?

[00:48:09]>> Like again it's like the Holocaust question you asked me. I did God create other people. Just because talk about cats doesn't mean there wasn't cats living. Who did?

[00:48:16]>> Right. Right. Right. That's what I'm asking you is who is he talking about?

[00:48:20]Because if you read the story, now the man knew his wife and she conceived and bore Cain. I have produced a man with the help of the Lord. Next, she bore his brother Abel. So, it actually says Cain then Abel and And that's it. It doesn't identify any other human beings. Right.

[00:48:37]>> Exactly. But it says they wander she wandered off and they got married or had kids. Right. Or something like that.

[00:48:41]>> Right.

[00:48:42]>> There had to be other people on the earth.

[00:48:44]>> Right. So Cain then it says Cain walks away. Yeah. It says whoever kills Cain.

[00:48:49]Who who who would kill Cain? There's only Cain, Adam and Eve. That's it.

[00:48:54]>> No, no, that that's from what you can read from the text. But right oral tradition, too, obviously.

[00:49:01]>> No, no, it's not all you can read from the text. All the other thing you can read from the text is Cain is worried about other people.

[00:49:09]>> So there must be other people. That's how I get, >> right? There must be other people. So, this whole story about Adam and Eve having Cain and Abel can't be the first people that ever lived on the planet because there's other people on the planet already and Cain is worried about them.

[00:49:27]>> Good. That's a good theory and it's possible. It's possible.

[00:49:29]>> It's not a good theory. That's what the text must mean because Cain is worried about other people and in fact proves it because in verse 17 it says, well, it says in in verse verse 15, then the Lord says not so. Whoever kills Cain will suffer sevenfold vengeance. And the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one would come upon him and kill him.

[00:49:48]Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. The land of Nod. That means there's already another place that exists that has a name called Nod. Then it says Cain knew his wife. So now he has a wife. Where'd he get a wife?

[00:50:06]>> Exactly. So how I'm how I've been taught and heard and studied is he wandered off and there were other people on the earth.

[00:50:12]>> Right? That's what I'm saying. So again >> if he got married to somebody else if they were created after before I don't know the text doesn't really tell us.

[00:50:20]>> Right. That's what I'm saying. And so concluding that that this story is about the origins of Israel and the people of Israel. It's their origin story. And that they're not saying that they're the origins of all humans. They're saying we're the origins of the people who follow this God.

[00:50:42]>> Wait, no. Okay. No. No. The the the Jewish people, Moses, Abraham. Okay.

[00:50:47]Abraham wasn't even Jewish. You know that, right? You know, Noah wasn't Jewish, right? You know, Adam and Eve weren't Jewish, right?

[00:50:54]>> Again, the idea of Jewish is not a concept. They're followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[00:51:03]>> Yeah. And is the God Are you a Christian?

[00:51:07]>> Not Not the way you mean. But >> what's what's your point?

[00:51:10]>> You believe in Jesus, right?

[00:51:12]>> I believe in Jesus. Yes.

[00:51:14]>> Okay. So So are you telling me you don't believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Or do you?

[00:51:18]>> Again, I do, but that's not the point.

[00:51:20]What I believe is irrelevant.

[00:51:23]>> Well, I'm here I'm here to talk about beliefs and why I should take on Jesus.

[00:51:26]>> No, no. I No. Again, that's what I'm talking about. I'm asking you >> what your basis is for making the decisions that you make >> and I'm and you're when you're you're you're making assertions about the texts that the texts don't support. So for example, Cain is Adam, Eve, and Cain according to the Genesis are the only people that were created by God. But that's not so because there are other people. There are already other people in other lands.

[00:52:00]>> And Cain, look, Cain goes away from the presence of Lord, which is Yahweh. Cain goes away from the presence of Yahweh and he settles east in Nod.

[00:52:11]>> Yes.

[00:52:12]>> Right. He goes to another land away from the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and settles in another land.

[00:52:21]>> Yeah.

[00:52:21]>> Because there's already other people on the earth.

[00:52:26]That's what it's saying. Then it says he he has a wife and he knows his wife and has a kid and Enoch builds a city and names it after himself, >> right? And then Enoch has all these kids and his father Methusela and Lamech and stuff.

[00:52:44]>> Do you do know Cain was born after they were sent out of the Garden of Eden and no one knows where the Garden of Eden was? That could have even been another realm.

[00:52:53]You're not all here, are you?

[00:52:56]>> I'm not all there.

[00:52:59]>> Again, again, that's what I'm saying, Evan. Now, you're just speculating and spitballing.

[00:53:06]>> No, I keep my mind open and I'm here to learn.

[00:53:08]>> It's not a matter of keep your eyes open. Keep your mind open. It's a matter of there has to be some support for a specific claim in the text for you to make a claim that it's in the text. I personally believe that [music] US Americans are unable to do so because uh some people out there in our nation don't have maps.

[00:53:35]>> You can't say, "Well, I don't know what that means." Cuz for me, I just say, "I don't know what that means. I don't I don't there isn't enough information for me to reach a conclusion, >> so I'm just not going to."

[00:53:44]>> So, what I'm pointing out is that there's a lot of unanswered questions in these texts, and that's where we have to conclude.

[00:53:51]>> Yeah. Okay. So, when I came when I came here, not not like I'm happy we're talking about everything. I I could we could do this once a week if you want.

[00:53:59]We could talk we can go on and go on and go on and we can learn off each other and I write stuff down or I'll look stuff.

[00:54:03]>> No, we're still we're still talking about the original topic which is why do you believe the Hebrew scriptures are scripture?

[00:54:09]>> The original topic that we started talking about um I I believe the Hebrew well the do you not believe they're older than the New Testament? Do you not believe the New Testament is based off them? Again, that the fact that they're old doesn't mean that they're that I should care about them. Lots of things are old. The Anuma Alish the Anuma Alish predates the Hebrew scriptures.

[00:54:29]>> So, do you not agree with any scriptures or like do you not believe in the scriptures at all?

[00:54:35]>> Again, Evan, it doesn't matter. I'm asking you why you've accepted the Hebrew scriptures. What What is the basis for accepting them as as divine or God's word or whatever it is that you think that they are? What's your basis?

[00:54:46]Like like I like I say like like the prophecies the Jews going to Egypt, the Jews coming out of Egypt, the uh the Isaiah, >> which I don't think which we've already discussed are just your belief that those are actually prophecies.

[00:54:59]>> Well, so you so you don't you don't believe that there was >> It doesn't matter what I believe, Evan.

[00:55:03]It doesn't matter what I believe.

[00:55:06]>> Jews accept them. Were the Jews in Babylon?

[00:55:09]>> Were the Jews in Babylon? Yeah. I believe that historically Nebuchadnezzar took the Israelites into into bondage into into Babylon. There's pretty good historical evidence for that. Yes.

[00:55:19]>> Did did King Cyrus free the Jews?

[00:55:22]>> I believe so. Yes.

[00:55:23]>> Did the Jews return?

[00:55:24]>> There's ex Yeah. There's external historical data.

[00:55:26]>> Well, this is all true stuff that these scriptures have spoken about which were written way.

[00:55:30]>> Again, it doesn't again that doesn't mean that they're that I should believe that their God is real, >> that that the Jewish God is real. But you believe in that Jewish.

[00:55:41]>> No, I should. Again, it shouldn't that the fact that I believe whatever I believe is a choice I've made. I'm asking you why you believe it.

[00:55:53]>> So, so we both believe in the same God of the Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Torah.

[00:55:58]>> You seem to believe in it because you think that there's fulfilled prophecies and crap like that. And I don't.

[00:56:03]>> I do. And and I just believe it's when you talk about other rel I'm not sure the religion you just talking about writings but when you when you like all the Romans religions, the Egyptian religions, all um Buddha like a lot of these are a way of like >> they don't have they're not people of the book. They don't have a scripture.

[00:56:20]>> Well, that's I'm just saying like a lot of these things they don't their scriptures are just like they don't like >> no their religion is different. Yeah.

[00:56:26]Their religion is very different than the religion that was that's followed by Israelites because Israelites have a text that they regard as authoritative.

[00:56:36]Romans the these other these other cults don't have those kinds of a paradigm.

[00:56:41]Their their religion is structured very differently. So I can't impose uh that's like saying Buddhists aren't like Hindus. So Hindus are true and Buddhists are false because they're not the same kind of religion. Well, they're not the same kind of religion. Dowists and Buddhists and others religions are different than Christianity. Um, Judeo-Christian religions are very different than these other religions.

[00:57:05]They're just different.

[00:57:06]>> So, when I read >> different doesn't mean one's true and one's false.

[00:57:10]>> Well, when I when I read like like I'm going to say I know you're Christian, so I don't accept those scriptures, but our scriptures when you when you read you call the Old Testament, I call the Tanakh. when we >> what I call the what I call the what >> when the when the text speaks about the deep waters of the earth like the the floodgates.

[00:57:27]>> Yeah. I don't think that I think that that is ancient symbolism that manifests that they don't understand how the earth works.

[00:57:34]>> No, but this is the thing they have they had like divine knowledge. How would they know about like waters being under the earth exploding up that created the flood? Do you believe in the flood?

[00:57:44]>> No.

[00:57:46]>> Okay. You see, I believe in the scriptures like I believe there was a flood. A worldwide flood.

[00:57:50]>> I don't think that there was the the the bibl the texts don't even reflect a worldwide flood.

[00:57:55]>> That you saying the texts don't talk worldwide flooded?

[00:57:58]>> No, they don't talk about a worldwide flood. Where do they say that the that the whole globe was flooded?

[00:58:05]>> Well, the land back then was probably 100% was different back then.

[00:58:09]>> Okay, so here's the problem with that.

[00:58:11]How do they know? So h how does the author of these texts know that the that the other side of the globe is flooded?

[00:58:25]>> Well, it could have been speaking about like well first of all we know that God Moses >> why would God tell them that?

[00:58:33]>> It's called the divine information.

[00:58:35]That's what he wrote about.

[00:58:36]>> Okay. So if God says for example, hey I flooded. So let me tell you this. I know that earlier in the texts you recorded that the earth is flat and has a dome on top of it.

[00:58:50]>> I never read that >> on top of the again. That's what it just says in Genesis 1 vers6.

[00:58:55]>> It says the earth was flat.

[00:58:56]>> Yes. Hold on. Hold on. Let me show you this.

[00:58:59]>> I never seen that. I've actually read the earth is circular.

[00:59:02]>> No, it's a circle.

[00:59:06]It's a flat circle.

[00:59:07]>> It says the waters would cover all the high mountains that were under the whole heavens were covered.

[00:59:12]>> Yeah, I Uhuh. Yeah, I know.

[00:59:14]>> No, that's I get that.

[00:59:15]>> Kind of talk it was a flat.

[00:59:18]>> No, that's not really what it's saying.

[00:59:20]This is what This is how the ancient Israelites This is ancient Hebrew cosmology. In fact, you actually just look up ancient Israelite cosmology.

[00:59:30]Yeah. This is this is how the biblical texts represent the earth.

[00:59:38]Uh, I I've seen stuff like this, but I don't know if that's actually how they think or >> No, that's actually if you go through the biblical text, this is how the ancient Israelites thought the earth looked.

[00:59:48]This is why flatearthers are are usually so people who claim to be flatearthers, if you talk to them long enough, I mean, they'll talk about science crap and they'll try to make a bunch of arguments, but if you actually talk to them long enough, you'll find out that they are people who are biblical literalists. They believe the Bible is literally true. Absolutely 100. And they think this is and so this is why they believe the earth is flat >> because they actually you ask them why the governments of the earth are lying about the earth being flat. And the reason is is because if the governments of the earth can convince everybody that the earth is round, then it will cause them to discount and reject the Bible.

[01:00:31]And that's what Satan wants them to do.

[01:00:34]That's their that's literally their argument. I've talked to tons of them.

[01:00:38]They actually believe this is what the earth looks like and it's what because it's what the Bible says it looks like and the Bible's just wrong.

[01:00:47]>> So if you read Isaiah 40 22 it says he God sits on the throne above the circle of the earth.

[01:00:54]>> The circle Yeah. It's a circle because look look at it this way Evan it's really it's really easy to think this way. If you go outside let's say I took away all the technology that you have. I took away your TV and your internet and everything. And I took away all the electricity and everything, right? No planes, nothing. All you would be left with is whatever you can see with your little sad naked caveman eyeballs.

[01:01:22]>> With your sad, naked caveman eyeball, >> which how I was Yeah.

[01:01:27]>> Yeah. You you And so what would you do?

[01:01:29]You would just look around. And honestly, if you're in the ancient world, does do the sun and the moon look like they're different sizes?

[01:01:38]>> No.

[01:01:39]>> Not really. No.

[01:01:40]>> Do they look like they're millions of miles or thousands of miles away? No.

[01:01:46]>> I mean, the heat from the sun, the heat from the sun is so hot it burns you when you're outside. Why would you think that the that the sun is 93 million miles away?

[01:01:55]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:56]>> You would have no reason to think that.

[01:01:59]So the Bible represents what ancient people see with their eyeballs.

[01:02:05]And God is not telling them they're wrong. Why would he need to?

[01:02:09]>> No, but that's why when I read the Hebrew scriptures, the Torah, which is I guess a lot of it is for the Jews, but where I say it comes in for you too and and like like Noah and like >> the Hebrew scriptures are for Israel.

[01:02:22]They're for they're for the nation of Israel. So you're telling me like everyone be Noah and before Noah around Noah, these non-Jews, they had no rules, no commandments, no >> No, no. I'm talking about that again, these texts are the origin story of a specific group who is making their god the powerful God. So for example in Deuteronomy like if you look at Deuteronomy 32 verses 7-10 this is this is a a a psalm um it's a post- exilic psalm but the the it says this and this is something that they long have believed and it was confirmed that this is actually the correct translation of this text when they found the maseretic texts in the in the 184 in the 1940s.

[01:03:15]So 1947 when they found the Kuman scrolls um and they compared them to the Maseretic texts rather they they found that what they had re what they had previously believed about these verses was correct. But it says when the most high, it says remember the days of old, consider the years long past. Ask your father and he will inform you your elders and they will tell you.

[01:03:40]>> When the most high, this is verse 7 of 32. Deuteronomy, when the Most High aortioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods. the the Lord which is it's Yahweh the Lord's own portion was his people Jacob some translations put Israel his allotted share and this is in Deuteronomy where it's identifying that there was a divine council where a high God who's the God of everything gives to the God Yahweh the nation of Israel as his inheritance.

[01:04:27]>> Yeah. So, how I'm reading that is there's fake gods that people call God and they're all coming to him.

[01:04:32]>> It doesn't that that's not what this is saying. This is not talking about fake gods. There are no fake gods. There's there's gods and then there's just humans.

[01:04:40]>> That's how See, I I've never learned like that. See, I learned that there's God and then there's people that call Jesus God. There's people that call the Roman all the Roman gods, the Greek gods, the Egyptian gods. And these are all like not like real. like they're not they're not real because there's other there's other scriptures that that God says I'm the God the only God. There's no other God but me. There's no one around me. There's one beside me. I'm the only savior.

[01:05:01]>> That's not what again he's talking about being the God of Israel. And he's talking to Israel.

[01:05:05]>> Yeah. But >> this is the God of Israel tell this is the God of Israel telling Israel, you don't have another God. I'm your only God. But but this is for the whole earth because even in Genesis 12 but >> Genesis biblical text the Hebrew scriptures were written in Hebrew by Israelites to Israelites. They were not written to me and they were not written to you.

[01:05:25]>> Then explain to me this first time then in um Genesis the Torah Genesis 12:3 it says Abraham's blessing is for all the nations all the earth not just for Israel.

[01:05:38]>> That's fine. That's them saying that we're greater than other nations. And it's saying in you all families on earth shall be blessed. It means we are all blessed.

[01:05:48]>> So >> so that's for the nations. You're saying it's only for Israel. It's for all of us >> again. No. How how are the rest of the nations blessed? By doing what?

[01:05:57]>> By coming to the God of Israel, the Torah, the light >> to to be morally right. To to understand that they're wrong.

[01:06:06]Are you saying that anybody anybody who doesn't sacrifice animals to the God of Israel is morally wrong?

[01:06:12]>> Well, you know, sacrificing animals isn't the only way to repent. There's there's many cases where God takes rep Nineveh. They weren't even Jews and God saved >> Israel. The law of Moses is basically had to have been revamped because there's no longer a temple. The central the central component of keeping the law, keeping Torah is to have a sacrificial temple system and they don't have one.

[01:06:36]You do you do know God says many times in scriptures that sacrifices are like I don't really want sacrif I don't want sacri I don't need sacrifices. It says you you can repent to me and I'll forgive you. How do you think they got back?

[01:06:47]>> Who according to >> scriptures?

[01:06:50]>> Where where does it say that you don't have to keep the law of sacrifice?

[01:06:55]>> The temple sacrificial system needs to be thrown away. Where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say to stop sacrificing? I assume that you're you also believe the New Testament is scripture.

[01:07:06]>> I don't believe the New Testament is godly.

[01:07:08]>> Then there's Yeah. If you don't think that the New Testament is a continuation of something, >> so now this is where >> I don't know how you've gotten rid of the sacrificial system and and what you're going to do.

[01:07:19]>> Why aren't you guys building temples in the diaspora?

[01:07:21]>> Because in Babylon when when they said what we do about the temple, God says, "I just want repentance more than sacrifices." God says, "I want repentance more than sacrifices." He never says, "You need sacrifices." And even when he did have sacrifices, >> he accepted flour, not blood as sacrifices >> again. And and how did they know to do that?

[01:07:38]>> God. The scriptures through the scriptures.

[01:07:40]>> And who wrote those scriptures?

[01:07:42]>> I think who I think who wrote it is who says wrote it. King David wrote Psalms.

[01:07:48]>> Right. And what were those what were those people who were writing these scriptures doing?

[01:07:53]talking about God's ways, God's will, prophecies, >> and and and >> and >> talking to God.

[01:08:02]>> God talked to them, angels. Yes.

[01:08:04]>> Yeah. So, they're producing God's word.

[01:08:06]As God continues to resolve issues.

[01:08:10]As God is resolving the issues that are arising, they are talking, God is speaking through prophets.

[01:08:16]>> But now that we now, >> so who are the prophets? Who are the prophets that are alive today who authoritatively interpret what God's will is for the Israelites today?

[01:08:27]>> Well, to me, the last prophet was Malachi.

[01:08:29]>> Why?

[01:08:30]>> In Jewish in Jewish tradition because it talks about sacrifices and talks about prophets coming to a hold. It Malachi gives a warning saying at the end of the days remember the laws of Moses.

[01:08:43]>> He says that >> again.

[01:08:44]again where why would there be any where is there any indication that God would stop calling prophets anywhere?

[01:08:54]>> I think the indication would be like Malachi saying you guys remember everything you've been taught at the end of the days because because God says hey God says >> where's the verse which verse is Malachi saying there's not going to be prophets anymore. No, he's he's he's he he ends off by saying like there there's another there's another verse I can show you where God says the Jews will go a long time without a kingdom in land.

[01:09:18]>> Those are in those are you a person who doesn't read Hebrew and who isn't an Israelite and who is not claiming to be a prophet.

[01:09:27]>> I learn off the >> interpreting again. It doesn't matter.

[01:09:30]So do I.

[01:09:34]So, so what does that mean? Does that mean you're I'm right and you're wrong or you're wrong and I'm right or what what does that mean?

[01:09:41]>> That >> that you learned from people that you've learned from rabbis. So have I.

[01:09:45]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:47]Well, you I don't I don't read it. I don't read Hebrews. I'm like, all right.

[01:09:50]So, I go to the rabbis that still believe in God.

[01:09:53]>> Going to rabbis. That wouldn't be what you do. You go to biblical scholars who actually contextualize it. You wouldn't go to somebody who's biased.