Couples Therapist: We Lost the Ability to Fall in Love | Esther Perel

[00:00:00]Gen Z is dating significantly less than other generations. What has changed?

[00:00:05]>> I ask a question in all my audiences at this moment. Did you grow up playing freely on the street?

[00:00:13]>> The parents of Gen Z will raise their hands and say we did. And then I ask, do your children or do you know children who are playing freely on the street?

[00:00:25]And you get a few hands. That's it.

[00:00:28]That's the Gen Z. If you don't play freely on the street, you basically are missing out on an entire ground for social negotiation where you learn to play together, to make rules, to break rules, to have wars, to make peace, to create alliances, to make up the whole thing. If you don't practice those muscles where you come up to strangers and you ask them to play with you and then you meet somebody else and then you join people together, you really are practicing relationships.

[00:01:00]All of that precedes dating. If you don't have that, then dating becomes the the first time that you have to actually learn to speak to someone, god forbid, if it's even in person, and look into their eyes and look at their body because so much of our life at this point is completely disembodied and we don't ever see people move.

[00:01:23]>> Wow. Never even thought that. So dating becomes this Olympus that you have to climb this whole mountain and it's very anxietyprovoking and that is one of the main things. So when we say Gen Z doesn't date as much, Gen Z doesn't socialize in person, Gen Z doesn't have that many parties, what a waste, what a pity to not have dance parties and and just hang together. Um it's not that they don't socialize, but it's a different kind of social. I spoke to so and so means I texted them. M >> no I didn't speak I didn't hear the voice. If you don't hear the voice you're missing out on the entire oxytocin attachment hormone that gets produced while you're hearing the voice.

[00:02:05]The voice is the first thing you hear when you are in utero. So you say you spoke but you didn't. You connected you had contact. And at every level you see an atrophy of the social skills which creates a real sense of bracing myself.

[00:02:22]I'm going out to date, which I don't like because it's not fun.

[00:02:27]>> You're so right. And you're opening up my mind to so many different things that I don't think we're thinking about. This idea of being disembodied. We're only looking at FaceTime.

[00:02:36]>> And not just that, now I look in your eyes, you look in my eyes, and we have mirror neurons firing at each other. We are really connecting. Voice, sight, breath. I mean the all the senses are involved on Zoom or on on any screen.

[00:02:53]>> We think we're looking at the other but we actually are not making eye contact.

[00:02:58]>> So this pseudo experience as if I am looking at you and you're looking at me but in fact we don't means that neurologically none of this is actually happening.

[00:03:08]>> Wow. Yeah, you're so right. And most of us on Zoom are just looking at ourselves. I started to hide myself for you because I just realized that you're just looking at yourself and you're looking at your reflection so much.

[00:03:19]We're we're overexposed to our own reflection which is why we're so critical of ourselves and we're so we're evaluating and analyzing ourselves all the time. But you're absolutely right that >> even if you look at someone else through a screen, you're not making the quality of content we feel. And there's a reason I I actually feel that I feel exhausted on Zooms and exhausted on digital contact. That is a part of that is because the actual connect contact which is soothing eye to eye contact and when you are in a safe situation is actually soothing. It regulates you when it is as if but not really and nothing really happens up there then you are exhausted and you know what it means to look at yourself the whole day. It's like the the the enshrinement of nar narcissism.

[00:04:05]>> Absolutely. Look here, narcissist, he used to look at himself in the in the water and look at his reflection the whole time >> and and it's the same as what you're saying with the lack of contact where you say, "Oh, yeah, I spoke to so and so or I heard from them and you're so right that we're missing out on these very analog behaviors that our body's craving, our mind is craving, and we're not really in touch." I read this study that said 45% of men aged 16 to 25 today have never approached a woman in public.

[00:04:37]And I was thinking I grew up at a time where all we did was have to pluck up the courage to walk over to a woman in a bar at the mall wherever it was to just say, "Hey, you're cute." Or like, "Hey, can I get your number? Hey, can I whatever it was?" And I remember how stressful that was as a man. So I realized that there's stress. But today, do you think it's a fear of rejection?

[00:04:57]Do you think it's a lack of social skills as you're mentioning? Where's that coming from?

[00:05:01]>> So, I think there's a number of different things going on at the same time. Continuing with less social interaction is also the fact that we're more and more living in a contactless world. You don't have to leave your house for a lot of things that you know, it's not just you would come up to the girl and start talking to her. Since the pandemic, we learned we didn't have to leave the house to go to school. and the and the 18 to 25 year old is the generation that went to school during the pandemic. So that's the first thing is a complete cut off of the socialized world. You don't have to leave your house to work to shop to eat to exercise contactless. You can have everything delivered without having to even thank the person who is bringing the food. At every level we have tried to remove contact and friction.

[00:05:52]Coming up to talk to a girl is friction.

[00:05:55]You don't know. There is you fantasize.

[00:05:58]You know you I'm thinking of a story that a friend of mine just told me when he was sitting on a train and for 5 hours he saw this girl and he just was thinking he would love to go and talk to her but he couldn't muster the courage to go speak with her. Finally after 5 hours he gets up he goes he talks and for the rest they been spend a week traveling together in Europe. And then he tells me if I was today, he's a father of a Gen Z. If I would be spending my five hours writing to my AI companion, what should I say? I'm anxious. I don't know how to go. He would have basically spent his time trying to regulate his nervous system and try to calm down. But he would never have he would have talked to the to his AI [laughter] rather than to the girl.

[00:06:45]And he would have talked to the AI about how hard it is to go and meet this girl.

[00:06:49]and he would never have traveled with her for the week. And [clears throat] this removing of the friction. So what is to me the killer of desire. We'll come back to that. But what happens in when in your statistic is 18 to 25 >> in your time you basically started this whole process of meeting girls or boys meeting boys, girls meeting girls in your teens. Mhm.

[00:07:14]>> So 15 16 you were practicing, you were falling in love, you had crushes, you dealt with rejection, you rejected others, it went both ways, etc. Most Gen Z today start their first experiences around 24, 26.

[00:07:30]>> Wow.

[00:07:31]>> So the whole thing is delayed by 10 years.

[00:07:34]>> Yeah.

[00:07:35]>> But when you meet at 24, 25 for the first time, you often meet with the lack of experience of the 15year-old. You haven't had that slow buildup, you know, and you didn't have sex the first time necessarily either, but first you spoke, then you hung, then you you you spend the day together, then you met you brought them to your friends. You had an entire process of engagement that made you more and more comfortable each time.

[00:08:02]>> That whole training launching pad has been shrunken to dating. You'd never called it dating, by the way, before.

[00:08:10]You I'm interested. I like someone. I would like to speak with this person. I have a crush on this person. I fell in love with this person. You didn't date.

[00:08:20]You just had these feelings that took you.

[00:08:22]>> I feel like we're living at a time where conversations about therapy, about our emotions, about love.

[00:08:29]>> Online, you see them everywhere.

[00:08:31]Everyone's talking about it. Everyone's thinking about it. But then we don't translate it into real life. We're more disconnected than ever. So talk to me about that dichotomy. I think that we are living a fantastic contradiction.

[00:08:44]We've never been more connected and we have never been more disconnected.

[00:08:48]Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconivity.

[00:08:53]So you think you're talking >> oh yeah >> to people and I would say even more like this monoloneliness is not about not having people. It's about the lack of depth.

[00:09:05]>> It doesn't replace to have these conversations online. And in fact, they're often done in 9 seconds increments. That is not really the time needed to address major existential questions.

[00:09:18]>> If you don't see the person you're talking to, you can express yourself in all kinds of univilized way [gasps] because there is no consequences. So that contradiction of of what does it mean to really connect >> and what are the conditions necessary?

[00:09:34]What and that is back to this issue of friction. Because it means that you practice disagreement, frustration, being misunderstood, understanding others, truly listening, listening again because you thought you got it, but you didn't really cuz you didn't listen till the end. Cuz half the time when we listen, we're busy with our rebuttal.

[00:09:58]>> That's a different degree of connection.

[00:10:01]>> Yeah.

[00:10:01]>> Ask a question when you somebody tells you something before you draw a conclusion about what they're saying.

[00:10:07]ask another question. Listen really don't jump for advice because you are the one you are not the one who's going to live with the consequences of the advice that you're giving. So look at things in context. Don't just take out one thing like that. And all of that is the difference between our conversation and how this can appear when we go online. I think one of the biggest things that you're sharing that's kind of I'm becoming aware of in our conversation is that a reason why we're scared to message and reply is also because everything's documented today.

[00:10:43]So there's a feeling of like if I send something to you and it makes me look stupid, you're going to send it to all your friends. If you share something with me and I want to pass it on to someone, it takes one click and all of a sudden it's on the internet. And so there's this genuine fear of not only am I being evaluated by this person, >> but I'm potentially being evaluated by their entire circle. Do you see the irony here? We have never talked more about boundaries in relationships as today at a time when people are often acting without any boundaries and sharing the most personal profound things that people give them in confidence with others. the leakages, this system of sharing and spreading without necessarily asking and ridiculing and judging and exposing and all of that is happening at the same time as people are talking constantly about safety and boundaries and protection. It's really interesting. No.

[00:11:45]>> Yeah. It's it's it's fascinating because >> there's no privacy.

[00:11:49]>> There's no privacy.

[00:11:50]>> There's no privacy. There's no safety.

[00:11:51]So there's no safety and it's no longer even transparency because it transparency means we we speak out openly about things. This is really you are basically speaking with surveillance.

[00:12:04]You are constantly watching how are people going what are people going to do with what you're saying? How are they going to twist your privacy, your private life, your your deepest feelings and and and how they can snitch it and put it together and reinterpreted that leaves people suspicious, fearful, actually disconnected, more lonely, constantly wondering about who can I trust? What is trust? And then hoping that by having more boundaries they can fortify all of this. But in fact the world doesn't have the boundaries.

[00:12:40]>> So how does anyone in this moment even think about building connection >> offline go offline? A connection is an encounter and it's an encounter with an other. And that otherness is the mystery of relationships. That curiosity that you bring to discovering someone. We've met a few times but we don't know each other. And I'm intrigued by you and I'm curious where you're going to take us.

[00:13:07]Where is this conversation going to go?

[00:13:09]What are you going to ask? What what I'm saying is interesting to you. I'm not busy here thinking does Jay like what I'm saying? Is Jay thinking that I'm smart? Is Jay thinking I'm stupid? Is Jay waiting to bait me with something?

[00:13:22]I'm with you. I'm present. And that's very different from I'm here >> and I feel your presence with me. That's not just you're here. You know much of the time these days even if we are sitting together I ask this is a question I love to ask in an audience how many of you spend a lot of time of the day on your laptop [laughter] in front of a screen whatever it is and all you want is to finally go home and get rid of the screen but then you get home and you're so tired that what you do is you watch TV and then while you're watching TV you're also scrolling on your phone and then you turn around and there is someone sometimes sitting right next to you who's doing the exact same thing. And then at some point, someone says something actually quite meaningful.

[00:14:09]And then you have this other person responding with that most fantastic Uh-huh. [laughter] Uh-huh. And you know that digital lag means they're there, but they're not really listening.

[00:14:23]>> And in that moment, you experience a unique kind of loneliness. It's the loneliness that says, "Are you here or are you not?"

[00:14:32]>> We call it in my work ambiguous loss.

[00:14:36]Have you ever heard that term?

[00:14:37]>> No, I haven't.

[00:14:38]>> Ambiguous loss is a term that was coined by psychologist Pauline Boss when she was talking about situations where you can't resolve the morning. Like if you are with someone with Alzheimer or dementia, they are physically in front of you, but they are emotionally or psychologically gone.

[00:14:57]If they have been deployed or there is abduction or they are miscarriages, they are physically gone but they are emotionally very very present and in both situations you don't know are you here or are you not modern loneliness has that element on a daily basis where I don't know if you're here. It's like we've come to accept distracted attention as if it is enough and it's not. And all of those situations make us feel like I'm putting out such efforts and I feel exhausted >> because it's not really coming back.

[00:15:36]>> Yeah. It's it's so real. And I think that's how a lot of people feel today that they're saying I want to find love.

[00:15:42]We all want connection, but then the action to get it, as you said, which requires a bit of friction, which requires a bit of discomfort. There is no love story that isn't organized around overcoming obstacles, >> right?

[00:15:56]>> The greatest love stories have an obstacle that you have to they almost didn't going to meet again. They they never asked each other's names. The parents didn't want them to be together.

[00:16:08]The age difference was too big. What you need an obstacle. Attraction [clears throat] plus obstacle equals excitement, love, desire. It is that combination, >> right? So the obstacle is the way.

[00:16:22]>> The obstacle is what builds the plot, what heightens the intensity, what intensifies the love.

[00:16:30]>> And what we want in the frictionless reality is a love like permanent state of enthusiasm.

[00:16:38]>> And love is not a permanent state of love is not about finding people who agree with you and who like the same things as you. Love is actually this being discovered by someone from whom you're different. It doesn't match algorithmic perfections.

[00:16:52]>> So if someone said to you today as to what skill should I be developing to be better at love and connection, what would you encourage them to pursue?

[00:17:01]>> Skill number one, curiosity >> of the other person >> of the other person. Curiosity, it's a discovery. It's a journey. It's an exploration of difference. That is one of the things that love it is that loving of that difference that is at the core of the experience. Humor so that you don't take yourself too seriously and you understand that half the things are not worth fighting for >> that it doesn't really matter that from 1 to 10 most [clears throat] things are a two or a three and if you live with from 1 to 10 everything is a nine then you need have some work to do. There are seven verbs I really love to if I think what does one need to learn to ask.

[00:17:46]They're not in order of importance. How good are you at asking?

[00:17:49]>> For what you want and need.

[00:17:50]>> For what you want, for what you need.

[00:17:53]Asking is a relational verb that you learn to conjugate. I think in verbs because I speak multiple languages and every time I'd learn a new one, I kind of look at what are the key verbs you need to have to build the structure of the language so that you can communicate. Are you good at asking? Do you know what to ask for? Do you believe that you're worthy of being given to what it is you're asking for that people will respond to you? Do you know to be clear about your expectations? Asking is about expectation. Giving. How is your giving? Do you experience generosity? Do you enjoy the giving or do you give in order to not owe anything to people? Do you give so you don't have to feel guilty? Do you give to square, you know, and even out what they gave you? But giving is amazing. It's an amazing feeling and it's an amazing experience in relationships. Receiving, how good are you at receiving? It's probably the most vulnerable of all the verbs to be given to because it speaks to your sense of selfworth, to how much you feel deserving, to experience closeness, pleasure, connection, intimacy, you know, receiving. Um it it it tells a world about you sharing. Can you think about another? You and your wife have a very different idea about what to do on Saturday morning. How do you share that difference? And it's not we come to the middle and we compromise. It's how do you in integrate the various things that are important to each of you play them out in different ways and every person feels acknowledged and recognized and valued. Imagination. Imagination is the ability to dream, to imagine a future, to project yourself ahead, to build a life project.

[00:19:39]Refusing, can you say no? Is it a relationship where people can comfortably say no?

[00:19:44]>> Because if you can't say yes, you can't say no. But saying no is essential and not indirect and not with coercive measures. Just simply I prefer not.

[00:19:55]Knowing that when you say no, the other person may not like it and they are entitled not to like it like you are entitled not to want it.

[00:20:03]>> These two shall coexist. These probably are the primary verbs add to that curiosity and all that because they are relational verbs. You can't do them just alone.

[00:20:14]>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can give to yourself and you can receive from that giving, but essentially they practice with you how to relate to another person and how to receive the relatedness of others on you.

[00:20:27]>> Yes. Yes. So well said. So well said. I love those. I hope everyone's going to listen back to that because those verbs make it just feel it makes it feel active and alive. And I think dating today feels very either transactional or checking like our mind is lost.

[00:20:42]>> Many first dates are like job interviews. Yes, exactly. Yeah, >> it's really not fun. I mean, fun is the word that has to, you know, at the end of a date, you have to be intrigued. You you need to want more, not you need to be evaluating your checklist. Different story. That's the the story of of of how you build how you build love. It's not something you instant, you know, you can't sit there, ask questions, then look here and hope that you feel some butterflies and some tingling and say, "Nah, nothing's happening." That's not I'm not feeling it. Um, okay. We've had the coffee. I don't want to really have that lunch. I'm just going to No.

[00:21:20]>> Yeah. Yeah. So true.

[00:21:22]>> But turn around. Somebody's standing in line. Turn around at the counter. Turn around in front of the barista. There is people around you all the time. Every stranger is a potential best friend or person that you could fall in love with.

[00:21:37]And you have no idea. But you've got to remain open to serendipity.

[00:21:41]>> Yeah. And now we feel so weird when we're in public and alone that we pick out our phone because we'd rather not make eye contact. Like it almost feels cringe or weird to make eye contact with someone because you're scared of them looking at you in one sense or you're scared of looking at them because we're not as exposed to it. And so we'd rather just take out our phone because it's a easier way to wait in a line.

[00:22:04]>> That's social out. And that has consequences for everything else. you're in trouble. Nobody will reach out because your statistic about the the the the young man who doesn't reach out to a woman or doesn't make contact. It's the same as the who has a best friend, who has someone to call when you're in trouble. Who can you ask for help? Who do you go out with? I mean, these things are interconnected. If you don't socialize properly, you also feel more lonely. And if you feel more lonely, you become more isolated. You become more isolated, you become more anxious. You become more anxious. You make sure never to leave your phone when you're in an elevator. You become more anxious. You become more depressed. This is like a a big of a chain of events that take us down.