- Are Former Adventists Smug, Bitter, Disgruntled and have an axe to grind? Ray Daugherty

[00:00:00]Hey, hey, hey.

[00:00:32]>> [music] [music] [music] >> You love me so much more [music] than [singing] I could ever know.

[00:01:59]Your love is [music] deeper than this world will ever show.

[00:02:05]And all of [music] life's beauty shines around this moment now. The sky and [music] the cliffs, they seem to change my life somehow.

[00:02:15]And I [music] I will never be will never be the same.

[00:02:22]Never be [music and singing] the same.

[00:02:24]Wo. I I will never be never be [music and singing] the same.

[00:02:32]Never be the same ever [music] again.

[00:02:41]Well, [music] here I [singing] am waiting. Lord, my life is just for you.

[00:02:47]Please [music and singing] unfold all the plans that you would have me do.

[00:02:52]And if all the world's [music] just a breath, then nothing's here to stay. And all of [music and singing] the love we feel will save us anyway.

[00:03:02]And I [music] I [singing] will never be will never be the same.

[00:03:09]Will never be the same. Oh, I I will never be will never be the same. I'll never be the same ever again.

[00:03:34][singing and music] >> [music] >> I will never be [music and singing] will never be the same.

[00:04:01]Never be the same.

[00:04:04]Oh, I I [singing] will never will never be the same.

[00:04:11]Never be the same ever again. [music] [music] [music] Heat up here.

[00:04:50][music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[00:05:17][music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> never be the same. [music] And God's will is simple.

[00:05:47]The most wretched man in hell will not be Adolf Hitler.

[00:05:52]The most wretched man in hell or woman will not be one like Joe Stalin or some of these more modern devils. The most wretched person in hell will be a former Seventh Day Adventist.

[00:06:12]Enemy [music] [music] heat.

[00:06:41]>> [music] [music] >> Hello and welcome to SDA Q&A. I am your host for today and my very special guest is Ray Dhy. How are you Ray?

[00:07:09]I'm doing well, Peter. Thanks for having me back, >> mate. It's so good to have you back on the show. We've got a great topic. We've got a great audience already tuned in watching. Welcome everybody. Uh be sure to write in the chat, engage with the comments, even after the show. And even if you go off and get a a hot drink or something and you don't want to watch the show, you've got other things on, can you just let it run for 10 minutes?

[00:07:36]the algorithms really um help us if you do that.

[00:07:41]Now Rey, it's interesting that we've been chatting about doing another show and um you kind of came up with a title about our former Adventists bitter and it was right at the time where I was engaging in conversations with our good friend Steven Beagles who had written a post suggesting um that a lot of Adventists were a lot of former Adventists were quite bitter. Um, I'll just read that post now. Steven and I are friends. He did block me for a little while, but um, we're friends again and I'm looking forward to having him back on the program soon, so I'm just finding it.

[00:08:29]Um, I think this is it. He said, "I'm I'm really getting tired of the smug condescension with anti- Adventists.

[00:08:42]Whatever happened to the warm and friendly dialogue between friends?

[00:08:46]Yes, I know the organization has problems, but they are only exacerbated by the hostility coming from former Adventists."

[00:08:56]Um, so I'm going to get your thoughts on that in a moment. And I want people who are watching to also please share your thoughts about that comment. And Stephen will be on in a few um weeks and he and I will chat about that as well. I've added a few other words to the title.

[00:09:16]Our former Adventist smug, bitter, disgruntled, and have an axe to grind.

[00:09:21]Uh all of those things have been leveled at me recently. a progressive gospel liberal, that's not my Adventism, honey trapper Adventist said to me, "Oh, I've watched some of your shows and and all your guests are disgruntled."

[00:09:40]Well, here we are at episode 569 in 5 years. I would challenge anyone to really find an overwhelming amount of content that is disgruntled, bitter, smug. um you know so we're going to chat about that and your thoughts and as I said great to have you on the program. I think my point to Stephen Beagles is still not coming across. I need to learn how to be better at articulating. But if you're watching, Stephen, can't wait to have you on the show. And my point to yourself and Mitchell Strawn and others um who have leveled some um you know, valid valuable I should say, not valid, but valuable um nuanced ad hominemum attacks my way and to other former Adventists. What we're suggesting is that the gospel adventist, the progressive Adventist who believes a more Christfocused biblical biblically centered kind of an Adventism. I'm saying collectively, sure, some of you have found, you know, a way to have a great gospel kind of theology that works for you. Many of you are cultural Adventists. We're not criticizing any of that. We're criticizing those who are suggesting that the progressive gospel movement, if there is such a thing, has never gained a foothold or influence in the Adventist church. And whenever it has it sorry whenever it has attempted to that foothold or that influence has been suppressed cancelled marginalized and from canrite to Dez Ford to Steve Dailyaly and beyond it's it's just one big long trail of people who have tried to bring about gospel adventism. I was chatting to Mitchell Strawn this morning about questions on doctrine. And if you look from 1957 when that was released to next year 2027, its 70th anniversary, that's an example of this incredible book that tried to bring about progressive Adventism that has just seen no foothold. And people I guess my frustration that comes across as smug, bitter, disgruntled that I've got an axe to grind. The pro the problem is that these polyiana progressive liberal that's not my Adventism. Honey trapper gospel Adventists keep thinking it's going to change. It is not. Anyway, that's enough of my spiel for the day.

[00:12:26]Rey, tell us your thoughts and and why you came up with the original title, are former Adventists bitter?

[00:12:34]>> Yeah, so I I see this a lot in comments on Facebook or other social media. I see it from uh some of the defenders of the SDA uh theology out there. I' I've even gotten it from friends and family personally.

[00:12:51]Why are you so bitter? When whenever I start talking to them honestly about what Ellen White truly was, what the history of Adventism actually is, the errors in the in the theology.

[00:13:06]And I just I was caught off guard by that. [laughter] I mean, like really caught off guard. And sure, maybe in the moment I was, you know, passionate about whatever it was I was saying, but it's not like I was it's not like I was actually bitter or something. But even if I had been, why would it matter? And and I' I've given this not not just over the last couple days even I've given this a fair amount of thought is why does it matter if a former Adventist is angry or bitter or even smug.

[00:13:42]>> Yeah.

[00:13:43]>> Because whatever those feelings are don't invalidate that person's criticism or their individual experience.

[00:13:52]>> Yeah.

[00:13:53]>> Uh it's a smoke screen, isn't it? It's a smokeokc screen.

[00:13:58]>> Yeah.

[00:13:58]>> Like, >> well, it's deflection, right?

[00:14:00]>> Yeah. Steven Beagles, to his credit, is one of the few that tries to say, I'm gonna throw in some ad hominemum attacks, but but here is the content I believe in. Refute that. So, we then refute it. And that's when the ad homonym come out. I I'm keen for him to present his case, but then to also refute our counter claims, but they don't. They get all upset. Hurt, I'm hurt. You've hurt my feelings.

[00:14:26]and uh they resort to the most the progressives are the best at it. You know, the conservatives call me a tool of Satan and one called you a Jesuit earlier. Um >> yeah, that's news to me.

[00:14:38]>> I think [laughter] I think he was joking. He's got a good sense of humor.

[00:14:41]But um those are the kind of things the conservative traditional Adventist does.

[00:14:45]They go bang, you're a tool of Satan.

[00:14:49]Whereas the um progressive Adventists are more nuanced. you know, oh, I'm so sad to see you so upset and and bitter at the church. You know, they they're just masters of saying, "We don't even listen to what you've got to say because you're bitter." So, I love what you just said there. So, what? At least get to the point. Argue what we're saying.

[00:15:13]>> Yeah. Yeah. And I I do think the different flavors of Adventist um react differently >> uh to the formers because you know somebody like Mr. uh Brooks who you played at the beginning um he he obviously didn't think very highly of former Seventh Day Adventists. You know, it's actually kind of interesting.

[00:15:37]Uh my first introduction to CD Brooks was somebody in my family telling me, "Yeah, you should go watch his old sermon. It's out there somewhere. Uh I want my church back." And actually what he's saying is he wants his church back from people like what you would call gospel adventists because he doesn't like the >> Yeah.

[00:15:56]>> the evangelicalish influences in that wing.

[00:16:02]>> Exactly.

[00:16:02]>> But um that that's a bit of an aside.

[00:16:06]the >> well I think they should have their church back too. I think the progressive honey trappers >> sure >> should say look we have no actual birthright to this apart from a cultural oh happy sabbath hastack vibe you know.

[00:16:19]>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know you you hit it on the head with the the conservatives they they call you the son of Satan or something because you're accurately critiquing their theology. And I I think maybe it's the so-called gospel adventists, progressives, whichever whichever label you want to put on that.

[00:16:44]I think they probably react the strongest in some ways to formers because they just kind of like, you know, you talk about their I like my happy Sabbaths and hay stacks kind of stuff. And to criticize the Adventist church alto together, it's it feels disruptive to that.

[00:17:04]>> Yeah.

[00:17:05]>> And so maybe you have this like atomized local church community that's not the conservatives. It's not last generation theology. They've sort of put the Adventist distinctives on the periphery except for Sabbath.

[00:17:18]And they're just meeting having coffee in the church or something like that.

[00:17:23]And then suddenly somebody starts saying this whole thing is built on a foundation of sand and they they ask you why it matters because to them they've kind of put Ellen White to the side and and individually at least they have but the church as a whole hasn't done that. And it's like they're trying to claim the remnant identity without actually knowing what the remnant means.

[00:17:48]>> Boy, that's good. Can you say that again if you remember that? claiming the remnant identity without actually knowing what the remnant means.

[00:17:56]>> Great.

[00:17:56]>> In the Adventist mindset.

[00:17:58]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:00]>> Because you're not the remnant just because you keep Sabbath.

[00:18:05]>> That's why Seventh Day Baptists are not the remnant.

[00:18:07]>> Yeah.

[00:18:08]>> You're the remnant in the SDA mindset because you have the spirit of prophecy.

[00:18:13]Eg or I.e. I should say Ellen White.

[00:18:17][snorts] >> It's >> Yeah.

[00:18:21]And to somebody who maybe individually doesn't care too much about some of the distinctives, Ellen White, the investigative judgment, yada yada, when you start critiquing those things, they'll start recalling and saying, "That's not my Adventism. Why are you so angry about this? This isn't what we even talk about." Well, it may not be what you individually talk about, but it is what the church was founded on.

[00:18:47]>> Yes.

[00:18:53]Yeah.

[00:18:58]>> Do you think um do you think the progressives push back more to you than than maybe some of the conservatives do?

[00:19:06]>> Yes. the conservatives now actually really appreciate what I'm doing, which is so I don't know if the word's ironic, but I spent 54 years of my life and a good 30 years of actual ad progressive Adventist ministry. And every weekend someone would be telling me off for tapping my toe or you know you know just being uh like I said a tool of Satan and various other quite aggressive attacks. You know a friend of mine is banned.

[00:19:48]I can't remember if I was actually playing in it the day this happened. I have thought I was in the past but anyway it's it's his story to tell in many ways. he was singing and literally the conservative traditional Adventists went up to the power plug and pulled it out of the wall, you know, so all the amps and mics, everything just stopped.

[00:20:09]Um, and when I first started SDA Q&A and I was I was doing the second season of supporting the these gospel adventists by sharing the story of Dez Ford who is still a genius and still potentially their Martin Luther. Um I I got a lot of push back from the traditional Adventists.

[00:20:39]Oh, you're bitter. You're just going on and on about Dez Ford.

[00:20:43]And the progressives were very supportive of me during that time.

[00:20:48]I then later began suggesting that progressives might need to have a little mild sense of accountability for their lack of actual movement to growth and and so yes the push back I get now is mainly from progressive gospel honey trapper adventists.

[00:21:12]Now having said that I caught up yesterday or the day before with Alexander Carpenter in person. He was visiting Kurandong and was briefly in town. He'd just done some amazing stories in PNG Papoon Guinea which I will be chatting to him live soon about and I he would be a progressive Adventist. I totally still support these guys. I'm just cajoling them and they what I've noticed is they do not like being cajolled. They they view my statements as mocking and smug, but I'm just kind of really stirring the pot.

[00:21:51]I'm just saying, come on guys, do something about it. You've had 46 years since Glacial View. You've claimed Dez Ford. Many of them have claimed him as their Martin Luther. Um, and but Luther had some followers that were able to provide action and manifest change and they protested. That's the Protestant movement. They protested, not just him.

[00:22:17]They got behind him. And I just feel that the the the um gospel adventists did not get behind dez enough and they have have become quite um weak in their trying in their assertions that they have a really good version of Adventism.

[00:22:40]They don't shout it from the rooftops.

[00:22:42]And so yes, long answer, they are the ones that are pushed back. However, um SJA has grown. Before there was equal circle of um progressives to traditional to formers that the traditional and progressives is still the same size, but the formers is huge now. So it I'm getting way much more positive feedback.

[00:23:08]So my days are filled now with 95% positive feedback which is an anomaly to me because I spent you know 30 plus years of my life getting criticized from the traditional guys the last year five years getting criticized by the progressives. So it's such a nice feeling to feel accepted into this other body the former Adventist group and to feel so much support from them and kindness and and nice positive words you know. So anyway, that was me giving you a long answer.

[00:23:41]>> Your question.

[00:23:42]>> Sure. [laughter] Sure. I Well, I see Relle's comment here. How is it not a red flag to SDAs that any criticism of the church is immediately shot down as emotional in some way and therefore invalid? Yeah, I totally agree with that. I I just because somebody had a bad experience and is angry about it doesn't invalidate the criticism that they raise.

[00:24:10]>> Exactly.

[00:24:11]>> Or or you know it even if they're not angry because like I'm not angry. I can think about negative experiences that I had in my childhood. It my to be clear my experience was overwhelmingly positive. I had largely good people that I went to church with. Uh, but I can think back to things that were said and done to me individually that probably should have been handled differently or or something like that. We all can.

[00:24:39]We're human, right? There's [sighs and gasps] >> there's no perfect group of people. Like sometimes you you hear that, well, there's no perfect church as a defense.

[00:24:50]Well, of course there's not.

[00:24:52]>> Yeah, [sighs and gasps] >> that isn't the point. It's not about being perfect or imperfect on this earth anyway.

[00:24:59]It's what are the what are the key beliefs that lead to these kinds of behaviors? Because the legalism, the over strictness, the overbearingness that you and I in very different ways, I'm sure, dealt with, it's a feature. It's not a bug. Like, it's built into the core of the Adventist system.

[00:25:28]And even the most conservative SDAs that I've ever met will tell you that they're not legalists. They they want the legalist to stop.

[00:25:38]They want, you know, free grace or or something like that.

[00:25:43]They say that, but then they impose all these rules on themselves and others that just are not in scripture.

[00:25:50]>> Yeah.

[00:25:51]And when I say, "Well, I've left that behind."

[00:25:58]There there seems to be this this anger about it sometimes. Not every not everybody, but a lot of people this anger that I'm now leaving behind this legalism. And when I say it's legalism, now somehow I'm the the smug or the bitter one. Like, I don't I don't get that.

[00:26:23]I mean, especially when you have um a little bit of the the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to uh smuggness and arrogance.

[00:26:33]You know, it's again, it's not everybody, but I I've met a few in my life that are very proud of the fact that that they have this special knowledge, this special truth to take to the whole Christian world.

[00:26:46]>> Yeah. that the rest of these apostate churches don't have.

[00:26:52]>> Yeah. Yeah. Classic.

[00:26:55]Like the original photo I had for um for today's promo, the the person who had called me smug, the very promo shot that they'd used in the show when I interviewed them. It's just this smug look. And I I I thought it was funny, but I thought, yeah, I didn't want to be offensive, so I took it down. But the the interesting thing is that the the Adventist body, the remnant, the traditional Adventist.

[00:27:21]Yeah. I mean, how more smug can you be saying that you have the special message for these last days? And then the gospel adventists, the honey trappers that are in inside of that, they then go, "Yeah, and we've got a special version of Adventism, too. And you guys are criticizing it." And so again, they in some ways they're almost refining another version of a smug kind of Adventism that has the Sabbath and the State of the Dead, but in a more biblically focused way. And I just think guys even looking at yourselves.

[00:27:59]>> I didn't. So, you know, I was 54 when I left, so I I didn't. And >> then when I did, I went, "Oh, hang on a second."

[00:28:09]>> Yeah. The conservatives are all about we're the remnant church. The progressives are all about we're the remnant church with coffee.

[00:28:19][laughter] [laughter] >> So classic.

[00:28:26]>> And in fairness, it's better with coffee. You know, it's >> that's true. Yeah, they're on to something.

[00:28:35]Um, Debbie, >> yeah, I I do I do think they do react differently.

[00:28:39]>> I'll just bring up a quote, a comment just as we go, if you don't mind. Um, Debbie Kosia writes, "I think they're right. I hold bitterness for the silencing and alienation of thinkers."

[00:28:51]And I came to realize that while the church claims it cares, it only very narrow narrowly does. I'd say it only very um conditionally [laughter] does.

[00:29:03]Yeah, that's a good >> Yeah, and that's perfectly valid. I I will say that what I found for myself is I I have observed some friends and acquaintances who are formers do get carried away with their their anger. Again, it doesn't invalidate their reasons for leaving or their criticisms, but it's it's something I've looked at about myself is, you know, am I am I angry about the things that I missed out on because we couldn't do it because of Sabbath? All the things I couldn't couldn't touch, couldn't eat, couldn't do.

[00:29:40]And although it's it would be easy to get angry about those things, the way I've chosen to look at it is that the Lord Jesus has set me free.

[00:29:49]I I don't need to be angry about that.

[00:29:52]And again, I'm not trying to invalidate anybody's experiences or or feelings about their experiences. That's just the way I decided I'm going to look at it.

[00:30:01]Cuz sure, I I love to play baseball as a kid and I gave it up by the time I was 13 because I would have missed a bunch of games that were on Sabbath and I thought that was the thing I was supposed to do at the time because of how I was raised in the Adventist church.

[00:30:20]And sure, there's part of me that wants to just be like, "Man, I really missed out."

[00:30:25]>> Yeah.

[00:30:25]>> And yeah, maybe I did, but at the same time, it led me to where I'm at now. And Jesus is greater than anything I missed out on in my childhood.

[00:30:38]>> Yeah.

[00:30:41]>> Yeah. when you when you have, >> you know, and leaving Adventism for some of us, there's a there's a little while where you feel like you've lost your identity and you kind of work on getting that back and it can be difficult. But when you find that balance of really um you know being your own person and looking at the data and just developing something that works for you um you become a lot more accepting of all the other formers who also have been going through that and who have approach it in all different ways. Some of my favorite people in the group here are very angry and bitter but that that's okay too.

[00:31:22]It's like it's a it it's not um a problem to have to work through things, but when you have and you experience that moment in the now where your trauma, the things that you've been through um to varying degrees of severity for all of us different people. Um that now moment kind of heals all the the past.

[00:31:52]Oh, well, I didn't get to play as much baseball or, oh, that was a terrible nightmare when, you know, I was I was made to read or watch the now um book.

[00:32:04]Um, and and it just takes it away. And because you're only living in the moment anyway, when that past is resolved now, it you're actually not you're the opposite of bitter, you know, like once you've resolved that and you've gone through all the anger or whatever the different things that former Adventists go through, you you actually wake up one day the opposite of bitter. You're grateful and and it's in incredible. Just just by the way, quick plug for Debbie Kosia. She might put it in the chat the name of her channel. She just interviewed Mary Kay who wrote this book. U Mary Kay Mloud back then. I think she might be Mary Kay Dilva.

[00:32:50]Debbie might be able to correct in the chat and just put a a little uh reminder of the name of your channel. I'll bring it up on the screen because it's a really good interview. Back to the topic. But yeah.

[00:33:04]Yeah.

[00:33:05]Yeah. And I know I I probably talked about this a little bit the first maybe second time I was on here, but I just having gone through what I went through personally shattered that personal identity that I had of of the remnant and of of Adventism. And when I found my identity in Jesus Christ, I just there there wasn't room for the the frustration and anger that I was dealing with anymore.

[00:33:41]And I I think I think you've talked about this before, but I I do think that part of the reason that the conservatives react so badly to um and I I don't mean to make a blanket statement of that, but the reason the conservatives sometimes react so badly to the criticisms of somebody like uh Dez Ford or former Adventist or um answering Adventism, what have you.

[00:34:11]is that it really does cut at the heart of what they've what they've adopted as their personal identity where I am part of this end times remnant. I've got this special truth that I'm supposed to take to the world.

[00:34:26]And [clears throat] you know, I I think I heard one time, it would have been the former Adventist podcast, I think they were talking about how their their sense of assurance that they found in the gospel seemed very arrogant to their Adventist friends and family. Because in that very last generation theology mindset, to have total assurance of salvation, you have to be sinlessly perfect and you can't know that you're saved because you know you're not perfect for for the ones that really take it seriously. Now, not everybody's that way, of course, but when you have that mentality and you see somebody truly have a sense of of assurance of their salvation that they trust Jesus with all of their heart, mind, and soul, the peace that comes with that really would seem really would seem arrogant to somebody.

[00:35:24]>> Yeah.

[00:35:27]Yeah.

[00:35:30]Hey, it um I was chatting to a traditional Adventist the other day.

[00:35:35]And by the way, those noticing that this is a conversation. It's not an interview where I'm supposed to just sit back and listen and and be the um that kind of a host. It's a conversation that you kind of eavesdropping in on. So I I don't apologize for overtalking, but um uh yeah, I was chatting to this traditional Adventist and he was saying, "Oh, it's terrible that people think we're legalistic.

[00:36:01]It's it's it's Jesus within us that helps us then manifest the the keeping of the commandments and the sinless nature.

[00:36:11]It's not us. It's Jesus within us." And and it really hit me that the point of the gospel, no, no matter if that's true, let's just say you have the most amazing love for Jesus and it flows in you so much and you let go totally and you allow Jesus to almost move you like a puppet and you you don't sin because of that beautiful inpouring of the Holy Spirit and Jesus and you don't sin.

[00:36:40]That's still not the gospel. The gospel is not that people are looking on seeing a sinless bunch of people on the earth.

[00:36:48]That's not the gospel. That's not the point of it. So no matter which way they slice it, let's say it turns out they're not legalistic.

[00:36:57]Okay. It's the final product is still not the gospel.

[00:37:02]>> Yeah.

[00:37:03]>> So yeah, I thought of it after I chatted. Haven't told him that yet.

[00:37:08]Yeah, that's that's a that's a really good point because the gospel isn't about behavior modification fundamentally. It's about >> Yes.

[00:37:16]>> giving us new life.

[00:37:17]>> Thank you for >> because without Christ, we're stuck.

[00:37:21]>> We're dead. We're doomed.

[00:37:23]>> Yeah.

[00:37:23]>> But yet Christ has given us his life.

[00:37:26]You know, they they use Christian sounding I'm I'm certainly not the only person to raise this, but they so often use Christian sounding verbiage like it's Christ in us that helps us obey.

[00:37:40]>> Yeah.

[00:37:40]>> Well, you know, as far as that goes, that's true.

[00:37:43]>> Christ in us will produce good fruit. It will produce more Christian obedience.

[00:37:51]>> Yeah.

[00:37:52]But it's it's not in order to attain some level of baseline perfection or or some baseline level of righteousness.

[00:38:02]It's about >> Yeah.

[00:38:04]>> It's about trusting that Jesus has accomplished everything that's necessary.

[00:38:08]>> He'll produce the good fruit in your life.

[00:38:12]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:38:12]>> You just have to trust him. If anything, those looking on allegedly from these other planets and the other angels, they they need to see that in spite of your sin and flaws and bad actions that God still loves you. And that's the that's the atoning message of the cross, not that you will be love Christ within you makes you not sin.

[00:38:42]>> Yeah. What did Christ tell Paul? He said, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness."

[00:38:50]>> Yeah. Wow. It's good.

[00:38:55]>> It's It's not about our outward behavior. Of of course, we're going to act differently as Christians. That's true. Of course, that's true.

[00:39:04]But it isn't the point. If you're focused on how you're how well you're doing, how well you're ob how well you're obeying the decalogue, you've completely missed the point.

[00:39:16]>> Yeah.

[00:39:17]>> The point is about Jesus that he has done what is necessary to reconcile you to himself.

[00:39:24]>> Yeah.

[00:39:25]>> Yeah.

[00:39:28]So no matter which way you slice it, the Adventist message and special plan of salvation is wrong.

[00:39:37]And that's where the gospel Adventists actually get it wrong, too. Because they ultimately say it's because I love Jesus that I keep the Sabbath.

[00:39:47]But but still, they have to admit that what does that mean at the end of time, in the time of trouble? And what what what are you what are you keeping the Sabbath for eventually? Is it so that people can see that because God's love is so powerful that you just didn't sin?

[00:40:04]Like you said earlier, that's not a requirement for the gospel at all.

[00:40:10]You you said some good words. I I noted the time you said it. I'll go back and find it and make it a little short of it. You you worded my long little >> little assessment into like one sentence. So, I'm going to go and find that again. I don't know if you remember your exact wording, but it was really good.

[00:40:26]>> I'm not sure I do. Yeah. I I'm sympathetic to the um the gospel adventist position because this is and was for a long time my own tribe. You know, somebody says, "Well, this is my this is my culture, as it were. This is my crowd. This is my family. This is what have you." I I'm completely sympathetic to that. I felt the same way. I really did. I was there for a long time because I found a great local church at this atomized level that had the coffee in the lobby and was not the last generation theology stuff. I'll just say [gasps] it was truly in in as much as you know an Adventist group can be it was truly gospel focused people and and and frankly it was truly gospel focused people because you had I I think it is true that within the Adventist context there are many people who believe in the real Jesus who believe the real gospel. I, you know, Stephen Beagles, you mentioned him. I I think he understands the gospel. I I honestly believe he gets the gospel.

[00:41:46]I've heard him articulate it. I've seen it in his comments.

[00:41:50]>> I've heard it from many Adventist friends and family that I know.

[00:41:55]But where I disagree with the gospel adventists is you believe in the gospel in spite of your denominational context, not because of it.

[00:42:05]>> Yes. Very true. You believe the gospel because you're hearing it from people like John MacArthur. If you listen to John MacArthur or from, you know, insert [clears throat] non-adventist speaker here, you're you're hearing it from the Gaither homecoming videos you watch with your grandparents, the gospel southern gospel concerts that you go to. You're hearing the gospel in spite of the Adventist context that wants to shield you from it.

[00:42:39]>> I think they then say, "And we want to infuse that better version of it into the church. We want to stay and bring about change." What would you say to to Steven Beagles when he says that even though he has got the gospel?

[00:42:54]>> You know, anything's possible.

[00:42:56]Anything's possible, but it's not going to happen unless and until there is a repudiation of LG White. It unless and until that happens, it's just not going to change. And I'm not so pessimistic to say that it can never happen under any circumstances, but I I think the only way it does happen is if certain institutions start splitting off and going their own way.

[00:43:26]Yeah.

[00:43:26]>> Um I'm not advocating for that. I'm I'm not opposed to it either.

[00:43:32]But if um you know, North American the the flavor of Adventism that you and I will call gospel Adventism is really centered in North America, probably Europe and Australia. I I can't speak to those contexts. I'm not familiar with them in any particular uh way the in the same way that I am North America.

[00:44:00]But if if those conferences and unions were to start saying, "Okay, we're not going to let the we're not going to let the developing world control us on policy anymore.

[00:44:16]we're we're not going to let the GC top down control us anymore. I think there's a fighting chance for that, but I I do think that a lot of a lot of the people within a splinter group like that would have competing interests that want to go different ways because I I don't think it stops with women's ordination. I think there are a lot of progressives that would want to go down the rabbit trails of progressive Christianity that a lot of even gospel Adventist type progressives aren't necessarily comfortable with.

[00:45:00]>> And look, the reality is um that it's only possible if an impossible action takes place. the letting go of Ellen White. So, right.

[00:45:15]>> So, it's a it's actually not possible because the church will never do that.

[00:45:22]>> That that to Adventists, it's like saying, you know, Jimmyi Hendris, if you're alive, you can do a show, but you have to play a banjo, not your electric guitar. You got to jettison your electric guitar and your Marshall amplifiers, and you got to do the show on a banjo. Sure, he could probably be interesting, but it's no longer the Jimmyi Hendris experience. So to jettison Ellen White in in really in any way um totally undermines Adventism and and then gospel Adventists, what have you got? If all the traditional Adventists leave and say, "Okay, it's yours." You've got a whole new movement with a whole new theology. So why not just save yourself the last 70 years since questions on doctrine constant intense fighting back and forth and just go skip little jump to the left and you've got your own gospel adventism.

[00:46:21]And I know you know I've chatted to Jillian Ford about this. I totally respect that her and Dez didn't turn Good News Unlimited into a movement that was like a denominational kind of setting. Totally get that. But I also am totally sad that it didn't happen because a lot of people who were progressive Adventists back then could have just quietly moved away and gone to Good News Unlimited Fellowship. good not fellowship, good news unlimited meetings and and really grown as a movement and yes there would have been politics and problems and all sorts of terrible things would have happened but at least there wouldn't have been this constant bash bash Dez Ford CB you know MLandre Ted Wilson this whole big fight that just unravels Adventism. It hurts gospel Adventists and it hurts traditional Adventists. And that's why I said earlier, the traditional Adventists quite like me now because I'm saying progressive honey trappers get out of the traditional Adventists hair. Get out. I'm not saying cultural Adventists should leave. I'm not saying um traditional Adventists should leave. I'm not saying the leadership should leave or change anything. They they're just interested allegedly in creating, you know, a business and a corporation.

[00:47:52]They're more interested in land development than they are really fostering a a pastoral care over its people. But hey, that's what I've heard.

[00:47:58]I'm not criticizing them. But the progressive guys who say we've got something special. Well, instead of trying to change the thing that doesn't want to be changed, yes, progressives, leave so that people can be drawn to you and your shining light of gospel adventism. Stop being deluded thinking you're going to change those other three groups. The traditional never will. The cultural are quite happy. They love happy Sabbath and they love just going along singing that. They love that.

[00:48:30]Great. Awesome. I And that leadership, they've got their thing. They're like their own movement. They're like a separate denomination. But Gospel Adventists, you you're absolutely deluded thinking you are going to change these guys. You're better to go and create your honey trap somewhere else and draw people to something genuine instead of trying to change something that people don't want changed.

[00:48:55]>> Yeah. Yeah. I also think the uh the leadership is maybe less inclined to have the uh progressives or the gospel adventists leave than maybe some of the hardline conservatives are because you see big movements like crosswalk that bring a lot of money into the denomination.

[00:49:15]>> Yes.

[00:49:16]>> You you get a wealthy church in a a liberal progressive area that's giving a lot of money on a very practical level. The leadership is not trying to push people out for a reason.

[00:49:28]>> Yeah, we want to >> unless you do what Conrad Vine did and that's threaten the money.

[00:49:34]>> That's the reason he was castigated. It had nothing to do with whatever he said in Maine.

[00:49:40]>> Yeah.

[00:49:41]>> Except for the fact that he suggested that maybe someday.

[00:49:45]>> Yeah. Exactly. And that validates what [laughter] I'm saying that I've heard people say that the leadership is only about the money. I've heard people say that. I'm not saying it myself, but um that that shows that oh, Crosswalk, oh, we're a bit uncomfortable that they're progressive and they're kind of a bit unraveling our theology, but hey, they're bringing in the cash. Conrad, on the other hand, man, he could be diverting tithes to places. What? See you later, Conrad.

[00:50:15]>> He It's not even that he might be doing it. It's that he suggested that someday maybe it might be possible that maybe it's valid >> in some circumstances >> which then allegedly created a cascade of it actually happening apparently. [laughter] >> Yeah. The the irony is is that the iron fist that they tried to do at the village church as a result of that caused people to start diverting their tithes and offerings away from the Michigan conference in the local church there.

[00:50:48]>> That's right.

[00:50:48]>> And it's not some inside baseball knowledge on my part. I was just watching the the live stream of the meeting where people [clears throat] were going up to the microphone and saying, "I'm gonna stop paying tithe."

[00:51:00]>> Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[00:51:04]Yeah. Well, look, I I think um in my humble opinion that if you're a traditional Adventist, allegedly, maybe possibly the leadership is letting you down and gospel adventists maybe consider that the leadership is also letting you down. And cultural adventists, don't don't worry, you're having a good time with your hay stacks.

[00:51:27]So, I'm not going to even suggest anything to you. Continue. Enjoy. Um, but I would recommend that the traditional Adventists go and send all their money and spend a lot of time with Dennis Pribe Ministries. That that guy's nailed your Adventism. He supports it.

[00:51:44]Get behind him. He's not someone that's tricking you into a vacuum like a lot of the lightbearers and allegedly. I'm not confirming that, but I've heard people say that people like lightbearers and amazing facts. These guys can see the vacuum and they they're going, "Hey, come on. We'll teach you traditional Adventism." By and large, Dennis Prebby is uh I think an upfront genuine independent ministry. Um so traditional adventists go there and progressive adventists get behind Good News Unlimited. Not my weekly Good News Fellowship, though you're all welcome to that, but Good News Unlimited. Get behind those guys. Move over there.

[00:52:24]They're already an existing structure.

[00:52:26]Breathe new life into it. So, traditional Adventists, put your money into Dennis Prebby Ministries.

[00:52:32]Progressive Adventists, put your money and time into Good News Unlimited.

[00:52:37]Cultural Adventist, stay where you are and enjoy what you've got. And and leadership, enjoy your camaraderie, your alleged um you know, what do you call that when people pass on jobs to their family and stuff? Allegedly, that happens.

[00:52:54]>> Nepotism.

[00:52:55]>> Nepotism. you know, en enjoy that backs slapping camaraderie. Uh enjoy your maledominated leadership. I've heard I've heard that it's a bit male-dominated, a bit of a network there. You know, they're doing well. So, but progressives, you you do have something. I think I think you've got something. And I'm just suggesting go and get behind Good News Unlimited.

[00:53:20]Why not get Let's Brea That's a new campaign of mine. breathe life into good news unlimited.

[00:53:28]>> Yeah. Do you suppose that maybe some of the uh perception of anger and bitterness comes from the fact that a lot of formers are like we're a little bit cynical because we understand how the organization works.

[00:53:43]>> Yes, I think so. and and that maybe sometimes the the gospel adventists those who stay regardless of their particular event often don't know how the organization works.

[00:53:53]>> I I I've had a lot of gospel adventists behind the scenes tell me that they're very upset with leadership.

[00:54:01]>> So they do know what's going over here in Australia anyway.

[00:54:04]>> Sure.

[00:54:05]>> Are very upset about it. Oh, I could tell you stories that would make your head.

[00:54:09]>> I don't even mean like how the >> Yeah, I don't even mean necessarily the big like disputed issues about voting at the GC and and women's ordination. I mean, even just at a more atomized level, like I don't I don't think ley understand where their tithes and offerings go. And it's not like the church, the Adventist church is hiding that. They're actually pretty open about that that certain things go up to the conference level and then above to the unions and then above.

[00:54:42]Um I I think a lot of people just from personal experience a lot of people have this idea that when they give money to the church that it somehow is meant to benefit their local church and that isn't necessarily true.

[00:54:59]Like if you give tithe, that all just goes to your local conference and then gets remitted up the chain. It doesn't stay at the local church.

[00:55:08]>> Yeah.

[00:55:10]And so, [clears throat] um, when when you have people who have left and also understand some of the the mechanisms of the business structure, uh, that sometimes lends itself to a a cynicism about about the organization.

[00:55:33]uh when when you find out that the 7th Day Adventist Church behind Roman Catholicism and the Mormons is the third wealthiest >> denomination in terms of institutions.

[00:55:47]Like what is the Adventist church like half of a half of a half of percent of the Christian world? Something like two billion Christians and maybe 20 million or SDA.

[00:56:00]>> Yeah, that's true. and it's the third wealthiest institutional denomination.

[00:56:04]Now, a lot of that's the land and and things like the boardingmies and the conference buildings and different things like that, but [clears throat] you know, when you start to learn some of these realities, it it can lead to a bit of cynicism.

[00:56:22]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, often when they speak of the things they're upset that politically, it's usually that one political leader has hurt their feelings. I've just realized they don't truly understand the mechanism of the Adventist political structure. Yeah, I'm glad you unpacked that more. I agree with you. The gospel adventist >> I think the >> Yeah. Well, they just >> Yeah, I think the membership I'm [laughter] sorry.

[00:56:46]>> No, no, you go. There's a slight delay.

[00:56:48]Go for it. Yeah, I think the membership in theory have more control than they realize, but it would take a concerted grassroots effort across municipal, not just municipalities, across like states, across the country with hundreds of people at every local church uniformly withholding their their tithes and offerings. things or or at least targeting those things towards local >> local accounts >> and I think um Kelly and Conrad Vine and many of the traditional Adventists are doing that um and there was a time the progressives could have done that and could have had some kind of influence but they're so small and retired and you know popping off the earth that that their influence now is so minimal they think they're expanding and yay Hey, we've got, you know, a progressive church over here and one at Andrews and one at Lom Minda and one in Kurbong. Yay, we we're progressive. We've got some traction.

[00:57:58]But they don't realize how tiny they are. The progressive liberal Adventist is fading fading away. They had a chance. They had their opportunity. It's gone.

[00:58:10]Yan Paulson was kind of peaked peaked around his leadership.

[00:58:16]So yeah, it's pretty sad really cuz they still think they've got um you know, they got a chance.

[00:58:27]Yeah.

[00:58:29]Yeah. I think I've gone through all the bullet points I've had and then some.

[00:58:34]>> Yeah. I've interrupted. I vowed this morning I'm just gonna listen.

[00:58:40][laughter] >> No, I'm glad this is a conversation. I think it's more fun that way.

[00:58:44]>> Yeah. I always really enjoy talking to you. Um, in fact, when I get Steven Beagles on, I've suggested that you, me, him, and Mitchell Straw and the four of us have a bit of a panel discussion and that way it we can kind of nut through some things and um I think there'd be a good balance of of personality types in there as well. So, um, keep an eye out for that next week and the week after.

[00:59:11]or I'm I'm not normally very organized, but I've got the next two weeks already locked in and um and I just saw in the chat there um Frank Marendino's joined us. I'd love to get him back on the show. He does a lot for Good News Fellowship. I'd love to get him back on.

[00:59:30]Um also, Robert Cook. Uh Bill Fritz is watching today. And Bill, I I we had some great interviews. I'd love to get you back. So, I I think um you know this uh this smug uh bitter, disgruntled axe to grind former Adventist has got plenty of SDA Q&A shows ahead of him. I'm I'm hoping to do at least another 500.

[00:59:54]So, uh perhaps let's summarize. Let's make this a nice short program today. um and give us a bit of a summary of excuse [clears throat] me um in answer to the question that we've raised are former [clears throat] excuse me are former Adventists smug bitter disgruntled and have an extra grind give us a summation of today's chat >> yeah I I guess a summary would be that sure some of them may be for whatever reason in their individual experience but at the end of the day the validity or invalidity of those emotions has no bearing on whether their criticisms are valid.

[01:00:35]And then we after that talked a bit about just the gospel and how it differs from [clears throat] from the Adventist worldview we were taught. And even if everything that the Adventist says is right in some way biblically, it still isn't the gospel.

[01:00:57]That was your point.

[01:00:58]>> Yeah.

[01:01:01]>> And finally, you know, it doesn't whatever the source of one's cynicism or anger or what have you.

[01:01:19]Uh it just it just doesn't I already said this, it doesn't affect the validity. But but also they they react in different ways. That was the other point I wanted to recap.

[01:01:29]>> They react in different ways. You know, the the progressives and gospel adventist types or even just the cultural adventists just kind of like their happy Sabbath and hay stacks. And and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just >> they don't want you to upset the fruit basket.

[01:01:46]And I think the conservatives just don't like that you've stated their position accurately and and then critique it.

[01:01:55]>> [laughter] >> I'm kind of coming to a place now where I feel like I've accurately assessed, in my humble opinion, the cultural adventists. And where's my where's my little graph? Is this coming up onto the screen? Can you still hear me?

[01:02:11]>> Um, I think Can you still hear me, Ray? Oh, good. So, like I've, you know, accurately assessed what I've heard people say about SDA leadership. Uh, I feel like I've accurately assessed the traditional Adventist teaching as per LG White and the great controversy. I feel like I've accurately uh assessed the cultural SDA and and good on them. Um, I feel like I've accurately assessed the progressive Adventist. People keep telling me, "Oh, no, you need to, you know, there's this dispensationalist kind of Adventist." Well, they're all progressive to me. They're all in that little yellow box there. I feel like I've assessed them pretty well. I I'm looking forward now to kind of stepping back a bit and um offering some um overall critique of Adventism. Now that I feel I know the groups, there's a lot of people who are former Adventists that criticize Adventism, but they lump it into one big thing. I think what I'm trying to do that's a bit different is say actually no, there's components that are at play against each other while simultaneously supporting each other and creating a perfect storm. You mess with this guy over here and this person will come at you over here. Um, uh, so I'm glad I've spent five and a half years and 569 episodes getting to this point, but now I'm looking forward to a new bit of attack in what I'm not attack, a new tack direction in what I'm doing where I feel like I can now more adequately criticize positively and constructively of course um, the Adventist church because I now see the different components more clearly. And it's taken me a long time to get to that point. And I'm I'm still love chatting to people like yourself who, you know, I'll I'll paddle on for 10 minutes and you'll go in one sentence. Exactly what I was saying. I love it. Uh that's that's why I paddled with people like you so I can get erodite, clear, concise um comments.

[01:04:16]And so I'm looking forward to a bit of a new direction um that has been percolating for a while. Um, and I'm looking forward to having you back on the show. So, just to close, a couple of quick comments from the chat. Barry Ford says, "The Advenist Church is a pyramid scheme scheme with too much money going to the top."

[01:04:37]Um, uh, John is writing to something Relle said earlier that I can't find. Don't forget book club is on I think Thursday 8:00 p.m. Pacific time which means roughly 2:00 p.m. New South Wales time.

[01:04:56]Great uh SDA Q&A book club. A great little group there that meets every week or so. And she has written uh John has written Michelle so true. I see playground insecurity many times when you confront with the falsehoods in Adventism.

[01:05:12]Um, someone wrote earlier about how, you know, those who become get to a point of an a true indwell indwelling and understanding of the gospel um, the anger dissipates and and and I agree and I I think it was Jude um, said that and that's kind of a fruit of the spirit when that starts to happen. But in the meantime, if people have lost their identity, feel angry, feel bitter. I I'm totally supportive of that journey as well. Um, and Frank adds to that a little bit. Um, when you find out that the empress has no clothes, when you learn that the proof text studies that you thought were truth just fall apart under good contextual Bible study and more. Well, of course, you get to that point where you go, "Wow, I've been I've been duped."

[01:06:06]The empress the empress did have the dress reform that technically did have clothes >> just like Ellen did with her version of the American [laughter] dress. Um I and Robert Cook writes, "I can see how someone who leaves SDISM and relies on Jes."

[01:06:27]>> Yeah, >> Robert, that's how I feel. And um and Robert's view by the way is uh come tell come tell come tell come tell come tell come tell come tell come tell come tell come tell come if I speaking out of school Robert you did say it in the chat is more agnostic and and I love that people can come into this environment former Adventist wherever they are and can I I love hearing those kind of stories. Um, Robert adds, "No smugness here, Pete. You're helping so many nonsmugs.

[01:06:59]Nonsug Oh dear." Uh, Frank adds, "How can you get how can you not feel disillusioned and even angry when you feel that you were sold a religious bill of goods?"

[01:07:14]>> Yeah, I I completely understand that.

[01:07:17]And we did talk about that earlier where, you know, I can think back to this thing or that thing that I missed out on because it was on Saturday and and it's easy to feel angry because I feel like I was robbed of those of those experiences, but at the same time, >> regardless of what I missed out on, I have Jesus now, and Jesus is greater than whatever I've missed out on in the past. And even when you grasp that and have that lifeline and you're still crawling along back into the the safety of the the Jesus boat, >> you still can be in the water getting buffeted around.

[01:07:54]>> So even though you see the light, you see the you can still have angry, but at the closer you get and the more you climb on board, >> the more it just goes away. I've said many times, I go to sleep happy every night um based on this new um awakening.

[01:08:13]Um Relle has got a good one. She said we should make t-shirts non-smugs.

[01:08:20]We [laughter] should make mugs. Nonmug mugs. The nonmug mug. I'm going to get I'm going to do that. Good idea. Um, and yeah, as usual, great comments. Thank you everybody. Thank you so much uh for joining me today, Ray. Really always enjoy it. Um, >> please come back and you're always writing great comments. Don't disappear on us. Keep them coming. And uh, let's get you back and with Stephen, you, me, and Mitchell Strawn. and uh let's let's have a panel in about 3 weeks time.

[01:08:58]That'll be fun.

[01:09:00]>> Yeah, that sounds fun.

[01:09:01]>> Now, tomorrow I have where is my info here?

[01:09:09]Um David RTC Ministries and he's going to be sharing his story. Um I'm I'm pretty he he's called it there is another gospel in the church. I think he's he's on the Stephen Beagle side of things. So, I like to let people have a have a you know share their views. So, he's with us tomorrow and uh that's going to be great. Thanks, Ray. Well, until next time. We'll uh see you later.

[01:09:40]>> Thanks again.

[01:10:01]>> [music]