“Protestantism Is More Apostolic Than Orthodoxy?” Orthodox Priests React!

Added: 2026-05-31

[00:00:17]Hello and welcome to another episode of the transfigured life. I'm your co-host, Father Jonathan Ivanoth. And as you can see, I am Justin Bliss again. But Justin, buddy, we miss you and I know you're going to be back. And everybody, just know that he and I are planning and scheming. We've got some great ideas and some great guests coming up in the next few weeks that we just can't wait to uh to record and put out there for your uh viewing pleasure.

[00:00:45]Um it's been estimated that during this past Holy Week of 2026 between 16 and perhaps as many as 18,000 or more people were received into the Holy Orthodox Church. And because of this, and because it's been going on for some time and shows no sign of stopping, praise be to God, online Protestant apologists with YouTube channels and dedicated Facebook pages and websites and blogs have committed themselves to the wholesale discrediting and destruction of the Orthodox faith and church. Here in America, Americans are discovering orthodoxy and leaving their former delusion and joining the fullness of the faith the apostles left behind. Joining me tonight is a good and dear friend, and I mean that sincerely, a wonderful priest who has literally uh defined the concept of inner city parish revitalization. Uh Father Thomas Seroka, who I must also add was a classmate of mine at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary back in the mid 1980s. So, Father Thomas, uh, welcome to the transfigured life. Father Jonathan, it's so good to be with you and, uh, we've had a long relationship. We've done so many things together and, you know, in the church growth sphere. You came to our parish in Pittsburgh and helped get us on the right track. And, you know, there's just been no looking back. uh the the things that have happened in our um in our place of Pittsburgh, which is of course, you know, McKe's Rocks, which is actually the highest crime rate um in the Pittsburgh area. It's uh one of the lowest uh income levels and but the parish has flourished and it there's just been no stopping it. um our we are we're close to capacity in our parish, but we have plans to um expand we have plans to expand our seating. Uh we're moving stuff all the time to make sure that we can uh fit more people in. And uh glory to God, the future looks really bright.

[00:03:03]>> Wait, wait, Father, I I have to challenge you on something you just said. You said you're working to expand your seating capacity, but as anybody who's >> No, no, no, no. actually you know we um we actually took out pews which was was an interesting experience and uh we're we're going to you know one of the things I learned in my secular work because um I used to work for some consulting companies and it was you know how to make productivity better and so forth and one of the secrets is you can go up right you can go up like when you're looking for space. Uh if you're looking to store things, you know, don't just spread it out like go up, go vertical. So, there's there's some there's some ideas in the works that, you know, we can go up uh in our parish because we have a nice high ceiling. So, we'll see what happens.

[00:04:00]>> Two-level viewing. I love it. That's very, very exciting. I wish you all the best, Father. I really do. It's you're you are and have been and I know will be an inspiration uh and mentor to many uh because some people just talk the talk like me, but you you've walked it and you're proving how things can be and how things can work and and never to give up. Uh, Father, I'm sure you've seen some of those aforementioned YouTube videos by undoubtedly well-meaning and seemingly sincere Protestant apologists who who think we are, as I've learned and as I have been told, um, let's see, Satanists, uh, cultists, uh, you know, even non-Christians. Tell me, what kind of things have you seen and heard? What kind of feedback have you encountered or have your parishioners encountered coming to Holy Orthodoxy? Well, I mean, we've seen it online, right? We've we've been called uh idoltors. Uh we've been we've been told that we are uh Satanists, Satan worshiping Satan. And uh we are encountering and and you do as you said you see this increase of this harsh online commentary which clearly makes it known that they are worried right they're very worried about people coming into the Orthodox faith and that's fine because we have nothing to worry about in terms of the truth the real problem is um I Think number one the the way in which online uh information works right how influential can someone's even lies be right if if we see the lies against faith people may actually believe those so I think the good thing about this is we have to redouble our efforts we have to be clear um we have nothing to fear in terms of them throwing Bible verses at us. We have absolutely nothing to fear because we know the scriptures. We we understand the context in which they live. Um, and I think that it's it's an opportunity for us not to um I I would say not to say, well, you know, we don't believe in the scriptures or we have to actually really understand the scriptures and and know exactly what it is we're saying.

[00:06:33]And I think this is a good opportunity for us to clarify for ourselves, what do we believe? you know, what are the foundations of why orthodox worship is the way it is, why we believe about the church, what we believe. Today, there was a there was a a video that came out by Gavin Ortland, you know, uh who is probably the most ironic of all of the all all of our critics and yet very relentless challenging us on things that we've taken for granted for so long. Um, you know, you talked about us being at seminary uh in the early 80s, which is kind of like unbelievable to think about that. And um, these weren't even questions, right? Nobody was asking these questions. Nobody was challenging us in this way. Orthodoxy was not even on the map. Of course, there was guilt list and and the the rest of that gang that came in from the evangelicals, but it was just basically you just open the doors and they came in. Now, we're being challenged and and we are going to have to give an answer for the hope that's within us. Um, and we're going to have to answer uh with the the with the truth, but in love. And I think no problem. Let's do it. And you know, you know, father, I one of the things that I find very interesting is that um we are being challenged and and some people uh approach us and engage with us in good faith. Uh some engage with us at the level at which they've found us, at the level of which they've been told about us. And well, I I found this meme recently and and thought this might be a fun thing for you and I to do to to refute this this sort of absolutely asinine and and and stupid and completely ahistorical and unscriptural approach this takes to answering the question who reflects the first century church better, the Orthodox Church or the fundamentalist Baptist church. Now, just so that everybody may be familiar with what I'm u I'm talking about, let me um let me uh share something that I have um taken off the internet. I'm going to bring that up right now.

[00:08:56]>> And um there it is. So, this is a meme that was making the rounds uh a little while ago. And and you know the the the first thing, Father, I know what Baptists are, but I don't know what baptists are. Um I guess if you're going to put a meme up on the internet and it stays there for all eternity, you should at least kind of spell Baptist correctly. Um >> well, the best the best memes always have a misspelling, right? Like that's kind of a rule. So this may >> they have to do that really?

[00:09:29]>> Yes.

[00:09:31]It's a well-known thing.

[00:09:35]Well, it's interesting to me. Um, let me put this down for a while. It it's interesting to me that that people just throw this stuff out. It's almost as if I'm going to throw something against the the the wall to see if it sticks to see if it's it's it's if they can answer it, to see if it it Now, what really kind of astonishes me is where did they hear this stuff? Um it's it's really rather fascinating where >> some of the some of the things are inane to the point of it's it's at the same level of um call no man father right so they read a Bible verse that says when Jesus says um in the sermon on mount call no man your father right because you have one father in heaven call no man teacher call no man rabbi this But they use it as a kind they're they're bringing a a knife to a gunfight, right? They they club or a piece of paper or I don't know what they're they're not they're using the scriptures in a way that they were never meant to use. So you begin and obviously this is that's almost like troll level. It's it's really really bad. But just the idea of solos scriptorra which is so dangerous in the hands of fundamentalist baptists or you know some of the characters on the internet that we've been seeing that have such a a surface level understanding of the scriptures. But if you put a a meme out that says, "Oh, the Orthodox wear long robes, but the Bible says don't wear long robes," right? So they look where Jesus says that the Pharisees um they you know they glory in their felactories and their their long robes. But then they fail to look in Revelation where it says that uh the the apostles and all the martyrs and the thousands of ten thousands are dressed in long white robes, right? and that they're bowing down at the throne of God. So, you know, all of this this stuff, pulpit of wood, like So, >> well, let let's go through that. Let's go through that because uh each of these is really kind of interesting and in in in trying to understand where is their mind coming from because as we'll see, some of this is so easily refutable it it's it's almost embarrassing. So they say we agree with them on three things.

[00:12:25]And if you go back and you look at this meme, we agree with them on worship being the first day of the week, on singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. And and I don't know about you, Father, I don't even have a pulpit in my church. I just preach from the the front of the church. But evidently, some have pulpit of wood, and that's I guess a good thing. But um okay, so the worship on the first day of the week, yes. um that that that's been an apostolic tradition since the very beginning. Um music and worship, psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, uh they might be a little bit flabbergasted to to find out that about 70 to 80% of the Orthodox divine liturgy is is literally direct quotes or paraphrases of scripture.

[00:13:11]Throw in there an emperor's hymn every now and then. And you know, it's just amazing what we what we get to. Okay.

[00:13:18]Um, then we start getting into just La La Land here. Um, he brings up this thing called that we have pulpits and the pulpit should be made of wood. And he cites Nehemiah 8:4 where it says Ezra the teacher of the law stood on a high wooden platform built for the occasion.

[00:13:42]Now, the occasion had nothing to do, by the way, with preaching or anything like that, but he found some place in the scriptures where it talks about a pulpit of wood. Maybe theirs is made of wood, and he was looking for a justification for it. And he found it, although he's misunderstanding a little bit what this probably means.

[00:14:01]>> It It's It's such a strange thing. And again, I didn't even know that was a thing for them. But if you look at um who's that guy, the the the Baptist guy, and I can't remember his name, the the Baptist preacher that's, you know, he makes fun of everybody. He swears. He he um you know, made fun of the Orthodox. I can't remember his name. Um, so maybe somebody in the chat can can remind us, but it and actually makes me realize maybe that has become a dogma for them that they have to use a wooden pulpit, which Stephen Anderson. Yes, Stephen Anderson.

[00:14:41]>> Oh, okay.

[00:14:42]>> He's crazy. He's he is just like he I mean he's very entertaining like but it's like entertaining like you know at somebody's expense. He Oh, it says he's in independent fundamentalist blapless, >> which is this group right here.

[00:14:58]>> Yeah. So, this has nothing to do with anything. Yeah. The King James uh King James only crowd.

[00:15:07]>> This has nothing to do with anything.

[00:15:09]And it's it's like that one um that one that uh Alex Saurin always plays that little clip. He says uh that this guy said he could use the King James to correct the Greek Bible. Right? Th this has has religion has the Christian religion by the way that Protestantism produced with all due respect to Gavin Ortland who tries to present this uh you know this kind of pure Protestantism which I think really doesn't exist.

[00:15:48]um it it can go in any direction because you are basing it on the Bible as a a kind of puzzle, right? You're handed a Bible as a Christian and you're told, "Hey, accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Here's your Bible.

[00:16:07]Figure it out." Like you're you just you come up with the doctrines. And so you come up with a dumb doctrine like you have to have a wooden pulpit in order to be a Christian. This is >> well well father if if you if you're going to say that a that a pulpit having to be made of wood is a dumb doctrine, hold my beer because we got more to look at and and it just gets a little wackier as we go through this. I could use >> he he has on that chart three different citations regarding baptism that it's after faith is proclaimed that it's by immersion and that it's free. Now let me just deal with the last one first.

[00:16:50]There's been a little bit of a firestorm in some Protestant apologetics circles because a church in Australia, a Greek Orthodox church in Australia has on their website, as some Greek Orthodoxes, uh, Greek Orthodox churches do that there is a charge, there is a fee for baptism. Now, there were all kinds of people trying to to justify it and all kinds of people jumping on it. Um, I'm not here to to to defend or to uh that that particular church. Um, but but we don't sell the sacraments in the Orthodox church. There are cannons against that. We just can't do it. Um, what they do down there is um I don't know what they do down there, but that that's for them and their bishop to deal with. But we do it by immersion and we do it after there has been a faith proclaimed in the Lord Jesus Christ as the only begotten son of God. One just has to read our uh right ri of the reception of catechumans those preparing for baptism and crummation preparing for holy illumination to see that they have to make such a profession of faith. Now the reason once we get bass pulpit of of of wood by the way everything on that chart that follows is something according to them that we do not believe in. So in other words we don't baptize after faith. We don't baptize by immersion, which is kind of weird to me.

[00:18:16]And all our sacraments cost, and we're practicing simmon. Um, Father, how much is a baptism at your church? Maybe I'll just start sending my people there if it's free, you know. I charge too much, I'm sure.

[00:18:27]>> Yeah. I mean, obviously there there's no charge for a baptism. C can I just note by the way um Australia I've been talking a lot about Australia and I'm actually having a conversation next week with a former Greek Orthodox man who has a ministry >> to he's a Protestant now to quote unquote preach the gospel to Orthodox Christians and he again is is very ironic he has his own YouTube channel it's very small, but there are a lot of these ministries.

[00:19:05]Part of this is, and it it's exactly what you said, part of this is a kind of self-inflicted error. Now, I will say there there should be absolutely no money transaction for any kind of sacrament ever.

[00:19:27]However, we do have to understand the historical context of some of these places and I'm again not justifying it.

[00:19:37]Some of these places where let's say that there's a priest not not today but in a hundred years ago where the priest you know the the sacraments and the services and the memorials and so forth like that's how he made his money right.

[00:19:55]So you might have to pay 10 copex for uh a tragion or something like that, right?

[00:20:02]Or a wedding. And I again it's not right. It's not right because um we cannot have any type of charge for those particular uh services, those particular sacraments. But let's also remember as Orthodox Christians that if you look in the book of Acts, it says that they placed all of their belongings at the feet of the apostles, right? The apostles did not go uh anywhere. Uh they they had no need of anything because people were giving all of their money.

[00:20:47]If you place your church in in a situation where they feel like they have to charge for something, then there's something wrong. Again, making it very clear, no Orthodox priest should ever ever charge for anything. But let's understand, let's take a wedding. Okay, I don't want to go too far on this. You take a wedding. people. They're paying a wedding planner $10,000 to have a wedding. They're paying um I don't know what, you know, uh $100,000 for a reception, but the priest gets nothing. Like, you know what I'm saying? Again, we we absolutely should not charge for anything. But let's be honest that everybody needs money in order to survive. So if you're going to have a baptism, you should just think about give your priest some money.

[00:21:51]Give him a hundred bucks. Give him $200.

[00:21:53]The priest should never ever have to charge ever. Um and and yeah, somebody did say that, well that fee was for the hall and so forth. Well, then make that very clear. Make it clear that this is not for the sacrament. I So that's wrong. You should never say fee for baptism $250. Fee for wedding $500. I've seen it. I've seen it at all kinds of churches because early on in our country, and I'm sure it was the same in Australia, they had, and you know about this, Father Jonathan, they had what were called dues. And there's still churches that have dues. And that was in order to be a to be a voting member of the uh corporation because every church has to own its own property. So it therefore it is a corporation. In order to say you were a member of the corporation, you had to pay those dues.

[00:22:55]That's a historical anomaly that that forces, you know, this kind of bad behavior that says, "And it's going to cost you $250 to have a baptism." That should never happen. There's no uh there's no excuse for that. But let us also support our churches in a way where that would never even be a thought. Right? That's I I'm not getting defensive about uh any parish that charges for a baptism.

[00:23:27]That's wrong. But let's as Orthodox Christians learn the lesson of all of these people that are coming into the church, you should be financially supporting your church. You should be giving the first fruits of your income to the church in order to support the work of ministry. That's very important.

[00:23:49]But no, never should be a charge ever.

[00:23:52]>> Absolutely. And uh we have to understand the concept of stewardship as everybody seems to understand it today was was not something that was either popular or practice even 40 50 years ago. So when when people came over from the old country, the the priests in the old country made their living through blessings and prayer services and sacraments and things like that. And everybody knew that. It wasn't that they were paying for them, is that they were supporting the priest that way.

[00:24:22]>> Yeah.

[00:24:22]>> Nobody really gave to the to the parish.

[00:24:24]There was no concept of stewardship, you know, back then.

[00:24:27]>> My grandfather was a priest at the parish that I'm at now. My dad was a priest. When my grandfather was a priest in the 1920s um in Pittsburgh, you know how they how he paid because they didn't have money, right? They said, "Oh, father, you can live in this house." and they might say like, "Oh, will you baptize my children or bless my house? Here's a dozen eggs, right? Or here's a chicken or something like that because it was just you wanted to help you wanted to help the the priest." So, historically, that's that is a thing like you have to understand priests have to live, right? Churches have to operate. there's light bills to be paid. You have to uh you know pay for the upkeep of the church. And so we as Orthodox Christians need to make sure that we are supporting our churches. But never ever ever should there be anything on any church website that says um any Orthodox church website that says there's a fee for any sacrament ever.

[00:25:39]>> Yeah, absolutely. And uh ju just one more thing to note uh to those that have heard about this ongoing internet argument about this Greek Orthodox Church in Australia. You can point to one church. You for goodness sake you could point to a hundred churches around the world that that might do that. But that doesn't mean that that is what the Orthodox Church teaches, practices, condones as father has been trying to say. And um to project that therefore onto the entire church and say that well we charge for sacraments is really uh a huge uh misunderstanding if not an outright lie. We do not charge for the sacraments and people have to be clear about that.

[00:26:18]>> Yeah. It's a smear. It's it's this is what they are trying to do is paint the Orthodox church as this kind of um backwards idolatrous uh non-Christian entity that uh gets it all wrong even to to charge people for baptisms.

[00:26:41]>> Yeah. And and and just to address the other ones real quick, um this this meme claims that the Orthodox Church do not do not baptize by immersion. Of course we do. Um um what might happen in some places with adult converts coming in is the baby font that they've had for decades just can't fit an adult obviously. And so they might put something out where they pour water over that person or whatever. Uh again, I'm not saying that that's right or wrong, but again, even the dahi uh does allow for different forms of baptism, and that document's been around since the first century. So, I'm not sure what they're trying to to claim by saying that we don't immerse. The very word baptism means to immerse. Um so, again, this is just another claim by someone who doesn't know anything about the Orthodox Church and was too lazy to look it up.

[00:27:35]>> That's for sure.

[00:27:37]Um then then there's this claim uh that we don't evangelize. Um I I find it very funny that we don't evangelize because as I mentioned in my opening uh this past Holy Week, it is estimated fairly accurately estimated that between 16 and 18,000 people were received into the church. And by the way, that is only a portion of the estimated 100,000 people that are being prepared across the country uh to be received into uh holy illumination, holy baptism, holy crismation. Um so in a way, um Jesus, you know, he said, "I will draw all men to myself when I am lifted up." Um, and while evangelism is a good thing, and while we do engage in evangelism, those of you who are watching this and are not familiar with the Orthodox Christian Mission Center in St. Augustine, Florida, look it up, ocmc.org, and you'll see the kind of evangelism that we take part in around the world.

[00:28:40]um the idea that that the way any Protestant would do evangelism which he does not explain he's claiming that according to the meme they do it house to house just like they did in Acts chapter 5. I doubt that very much uh because I think the way in which Jehovah's Witnesses and others go house to house probably doesn't bring in a whole lot of people. That's that's my guess based on people that I've spoken to that have been in the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons and other groups that do that kind of thing. But this is just a funny claim that just because back back in Acts chapter 5 they went from house to house did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ. I think the way in which that is put together just makes an assumption that even they are not fulfilling or living up to.

[00:29:29]>> Yeah. And again, it's taking a text completely out of context and making it into something that it was never meant to be. Right?

[00:29:41]>> The propagation of this good news is done in many different ways. There is nothing sacred about uh going from house to house. In other words, if you don't go literally from house to house, you're not somehow evangelizing. And yet, like you said, um we have the story of countless evangelists in the Orthodox uh history, including at uh in Alaska, St. Herman, and St. Innocent and so forth, that brought the Orthodox faith, the Orthodox Christian faith. And we have to emphasize that they brought Christianity to pagans in Alaska. And you know, because these are commu communities, they were tribes that were living in these uh Alaskan lands, native tribes.

[00:30:43]They had their own communal gatherings and so forth. And it wasn't always that St. Herman or St. innocent or any of those uh evangelists were going only from house to house. They might go to the elder of the community, talk to them. They might go to some communal gathering, talk to them. They might just, you know, be providing food or uh shelter or whatever and then um bring them or expose them to the life uh in Christ through the church. And so evangelism itself, it seems to me, takes many, many forms. Uh I know, Father Jonathan, you uh work with a lot of different parishes. And in our parish in Pittsburgh, because we are in a a very very poor area, high crime area, what we do is we have a food pantry. And over the many many years that we've been doing that, we have actually received people into the faith into our parish um because they were served because um they saw the truth of what our uh parishioners were doing and they were curious like why are you why are you giving us food for nothing and expecting nothing in return, right? and they just show up at church and it's very different from anything that they ever knew before. But um that why is that not evangelism? Why is evangelism only I have to go to their house and I have to read a script and I have to ask them do you have Jesus as your personal savior and then present the gospel in five points. Right? Like who where is that?

[00:32:39]Where where does it even say in the Bible Jesus is your personal savior?

[00:32:43]Where does it say in the Bible there's an altar call? Where does it say in the Bible that um you know you have to pass out tracks or something like that? It it's it's like um it's something that Protestants made up. And I remember one time I don't know I you know every so often I used to listen to John MacArthur especially when he was talking about uh John MacArthur of course the very famous Bible teacher. he died about a year ago, especially when he was talking about Orthodoxy or Ukraine or Russia. He would every so often talk about them. And he said he was appalled when he went to a church in Russia or maybe it was Ukraine. And he said, "I went into the church and you know there was all this singing and the priests were in robes and you could tell it was all uh just religion. It it wasn't real. It wasn't faith." And he said, "And worst of all, I looked around and there wasn't even a track table."

[00:33:44]And I was like, "What? What is he talking about?"

[00:33:49]>> So table became this sign of what a real church is. And it's like, what? Like what are you talking about? So, >> yeah, they have they have their own agenda, but it's has nothing to do with the Bible or or church history or anything else.

[00:34:10]>> I I'm not sure that any of the house churches talked about in Acts had track tables either. So, >> you know, well, okay. So, so here's another one, Father. A preaching length.

[00:34:22]Uh what makes the church apostolic is long preaching. We go to Acts 20:9. And in and and how this verse how he justifies this claim in the meme with this particular verse. I mean, I kind of know, but it's kind of silly. And in a window sat a certain young man named Eticus, and he was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome. And as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the thirdstory window and was taken up dead. Father, can I please go to your parish and tell everybody that because you're apostolic, you're going to start preaching very long sermons. We just don't want people jumping out windows.

[00:35:00]>> Well, it's actually in my parish, we do have long sermons and they love when they love when there's a uh there's a substitute priest and they're like, "Father, the sermon was like five minutes, you know, just can you get the hint?" I'm like, "Sorry, you know." So because I I I mean obviously it's not an hour long but I preached many times you know 20 minutes because and and I will say I I this is ridiculous of course th this charge um I do believe that when we preach the preaching is a lurggical act right it's part of the liturgy it shouldn't be which is what protestant ism, which is basically like three songs in a TED talk, right? That's that's really what it is. Maybe they weren't track tables, right? And >> good one. Um, and you know, it's like three songs in a in a TED talk. But I do believe that we as Orthodox Christians, as priests, need to do a little bit more kind of weaving in maybe some I I wouldn't say expository preaching per se as a from a Protestant model, but it is important for us to point out certain things in the gospel reading. in the epistle reading in order to explain things in a way that um doesn't sound like we're kind of talking around or just repeating the words of the gospel or the story of the gospel, but we are actually explaining it. I don't know what what's your thought on that. Um because th this one to me is a kind of interesting it's an interesting area that I think Orthodox Christianity could probably use a little you know little bit of meat sometimes. I mean you have the liturgy and it's so magnificent. You can't out preach the liturgy but what do you think Father Jonathan in terms of you know just >> yeah we we have said uh I I've heard many people say clergy and ley say uh in response to certain criticisms about our our form and style and substance in liturgy that well the liturgy is not the main part of the sermon the eucharist is okay that's true but that doesn't mean that we can't preach well number one and it doesn't mean that necessarily 5 minute sermons are going to be the best.

[00:37:47]Maybe 30 minute sermons aren't the best either. And this is where I say I don't think there can be one way of doing it.

[00:37:53]The priest has to know his people that the flock that has been entrusted to his care. What do they need to hear? What do they need to hear on this particular Sunday from that particular epistle or that particular gospel that's going to be edifying to them? Yeah.

[00:38:06]>> And make them think and keep them throughout the week thinking about what they heard and perhaps uh using that as an exhortation to becoming a better Christian. So, >> can a five minute sermon do that? Maybe.

[00:38:18]Can a 10-minute sermon? Can a 20-minut sermon? I think it depends on your people. And I think you have to know your people in order to know how to preach to them, >> right? And and the the the point which is well taken about this is there is nothing apostolic in other words about the length of the sermon right that again it's just like a wooden um a wooden pulpit like that's not it's not a thing so it you know I have many converts in my parish that are very thankful that they don't have to sit through a 60inute sermon that basically said nothing in their old Protestant church, right? They talked for 60 minutes, but there there was no substance there. And so they're very they are very thankful to not have to to deal with that particular problem uh of of just sitting through 60 minutes of words because somehow 60 minutes became the uh canonical length for preaching in this in this Protestant church. AB >> absolutely and uh uh we got a a super chat here. Listen, thank you very much.

[00:39:42]much appreciated. Blessings to you as well and thank you for being here and listening today. Uh that's great. Um we're going to go on to our next one about salvation by faith alone. I I think there there isn't a Orthodox priest alive who hasn't had to deal with this in the last 20 30 years or more. Um he says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Is that what the scriptures say, Father?

[00:40:16]>> Well, the, you know, there's a lot of scriptures, right? There's a lot of scriptures. Matthew 25, there's James, uh, there's Romans where, um, Martin Luther places in the German the word alone, alen, right? Um many many times in the scriptures when you read about works St. Paul is speaking about works of the law. He's always making a distinction between um thinking that you are saved by keeping the works of the Mosaic law as opposed to being saved by trusting in the faithfulness of God. But that faith absolutely has to express itself in works. It has to be accompanied by works. There there is no other way around that. Look at Revelation about how your lampstand can be taken away.

[00:41:30]Look at uh St. Paul who says that if you know I I I pummel my body and do it so that I can finish the race, right? So that I can receive the crown. the all of these um these little scriptures taken out of context. And of course, this is the biggest one is that um we absolutely have to live in the justification that that Christ gives us in baptism, right?

[00:42:04]We are we are baptized. Uh and in this sense, Christ justifies us. We even say that when somebody's baptized and they're crisismated, the crism is washed off and you say, "You are justified. You are lumined. You are sanctified. You are washed." Right? That justification has to be lived in. Uh the the robe of righteousness that we're given has to be kept clean. And that biblical illusion is all through the New Testament too. uh having the wedding garment. Uh when we are um when we are invited to the the wedding feast, we have to have the appropriate garment. That garment is righteousness, righteous living uh the righteous works that uh accompany the faith in Christ. Um, and that this is the the really I think the huge difference. Again, I'm having this conversation next week with uh this John Dakos uh of it's called evangelizing Eastern Orthodoxy >> and he wrote a book uh that it's it's like it's all about the assurance of salvation like that all you do is you just have faith in Christ and then you you have your salvation. That's not the biblical model. It's just not >> Yeah. the the the model that that we follow clearly the apostolic model that we follow is that you you can't earn your salvation.

[00:43:44]But once you enter into the body of Christ, then there has to be evidence that that faith that you now have in Christ and and the membership you have in the body of Christ means something.

[00:43:58]and and works are meant to proceed from a a a right uh attitude in the heart, not not because you think the works are going to get you brownie points. In Matthew 25, it's important to note that what Jesus is talking about, assuredly I say to you, in as much as you did not do it, what are the its? The its are the things that he enumerates both to the sheep and the goats. You, you know, I was hungry, you fed me, I was thirsty, you gave me drink, I was naked, you clothed me, and all of those kind of things. All of those are clearly works, not works of the law, but good works.

[00:44:32]Good works proceeding from a heart.

[00:44:34]Recognizing that the one being helped is a human being made in the image and likeness of God. And so, because of that love we have for God, that we see in that person, we help them.

[00:44:45]The sheep did it out of their love for that person, seeing in that person the image and likeness of Christ. The goats were chastised because they did not do that. And that's exactly what Jesus is saying here. In as much as you did not do it those good works to one of me uh the least of these, you did not do it to me. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. and James of course the the the one of the books that Martin Luther wanted to tear out of the New Testament because it didn't uh fit his convenient paradigm um makes it very clear thus also faith by itself and this goes back to Matthew 25 faith by itself is is dead is dead. So if it does not have good works that proceed from the heart and from love um then that faith is dead and the works done by it are dead. The demons believe the demons believe that Jesus is the Christ.

[00:45:46]>> It's not enough.

[00:45:48]>> And um can I add one more if you don't mind?

[00:45:50]>> Of course.

[00:45:51]>> I did um >> I did a show a couple of weeks ago uh about this idea of assurance and the end of Hebrews 10 is really beautiful because what St. Paul is saying here is he says let us draw near with a true because the the reason I quoted this is because Protestants they'll just they'll quote this one verse as the proof of assurance of salvation. And it's Hebrews 10:22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith. Stop.

[00:46:29]Right. That's all they quote. But you have to read the whole thing and it says keep going. It's amazing. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. That means you have to be baptized. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering. Right? That means you have to remain faithful. For he who promised is faithful. God is faithful. and let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, meaning you have to perform good works. Then he says, not forsaking the assembly of ourselves together, meaning you have to go to church as is the manner of some one another and so much more as you see the day approaching. In other words, you got to do stuff. You you can't just say I believe and then not show up. that you have to now walk in that faith. You have to it's it's not optional.

[00:47:34]>> Right. Right.

[00:47:37]Okay. Pastors, now I love what he claims the apostolic practice is. And I love how the citation has nothing to do with the with the uh the the title.

[00:47:51]>> Yeah.

[00:47:51]>> He's talking about pastors. I'm assuming he means I don't know what preachers or you know uh whereas first Timothy Paul Paul's talking to Timothy about the qualifications of a bishop. Now um father how many daughters do you have?

[00:48:05]>> Three.

[00:48:06]>> Three. And and how many years have you been married?

[00:48:09]>> Uh 37.

[00:48:11]>> I'm going to get that right. I I I'm I'm married 40 years next year. I've got two children and two grandchildren. I I would say probably 80 90% of the clergy in America is married >> for sure. Um, so this claim that that we don't have married clergy, again, this is just the kind of stupid, lazy apologetics that people put out against us to make a point that cannot be backed up, that that cannot be proven, that cannot be claimed. And when you make yourself look this stupid, then the rest of what you're going to say is not going to look um any better. Um, so the Orthodox Church does have married clergy. We have married priests. we have married deacons. Um, so I don't know where he's getting this from, but again, if you're going to cherrypick a verse to prove your point, you don't know what you're talking about.

[00:49:00]>> Yeah, he's probably talking about our bishops who, you know, it is our discipline that the bishops not be married, >> right?

[00:49:09]>> You know, that particular discipline, you know, it has a history. There was a reason why. Um and it it certainly isn't by the way bishops can be widowers right so they can have been married >> it's just that they you know in the apostolic sense that's what St. Paul says >> you know it's I wish you were the way I was however right better to marry than to burn so there was a sense uh among at least with St. Paul that it was better for uh you know leaders of the community to sort of not be encumbered with that.

[00:49:52]So we have that among the bishops but look there's how many bishops are there in the US? There's 50 but there's like 3,000 priests and most of them are married. So that again it's it's a it's a terrible argument.

[00:50:08]>> Yeah, it really is. It really is. So let let's talk about let's go back to preaching because now he claims that expository preaching is the thing that marks u an apostolic church. We don't do it and they do. But he cites Acts 17:2 where Paul was clearly uh as was his custom he went into them and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the scriptures. I'm I'm not sure that we're talking about preaching here, though. I'm pretty sure we might be talking about just teaching. U expository preaching may be one thing, but but the citation here has nothing to do with it.

[00:50:51]>> Absolutely. Yeah. He's he he's just going into and it says he went into the synagogue of the Jews in Thessalonica, right? And he reasoned with them from the scriptures. In other words, he took the uh prophecies of the Old Testament and he proved that Jesus was the Messiah. That's what he did.

[00:51:15]>> I you know again preaching itself this is St. Paul is speaking to those people that are not Christians, trying to convince them to be Christians and they are already familiar with the scriptures in in the sense of and I don't know what this guy is talking about if he's talking about church, but you know, if you go on the street corner and you hold up a Bible and you say, "Well, the Bible says this and the Bible says that." 99% of those people, they don't care what the Bible says. like they, you know, you're going to have to demonstrate the love of Christ in order to um attract someone to commit their life to Christ and to be baptized into him and to join his body, right? Um beating them over the head with Bible verses. I I don't think that's ever been something that, you know, somebody that is a secularist um out on a street corner is going to be convinced by, right?

[00:52:23]>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, let's take a look at at at another one now. Again, the these are if you think about the list in that meme, the claims regarding what characterized the apostolic church and how the Orthodox are not that and how he or his group is. The list is rather an odd amalgamation of of different claims. We come to this one scripture reading that in the apostolic church the scriptures that were read were both from the law and from the po uh and from the prophets. Now I just want to point out these are the scripture readings in the Orthodox Church in America's lectionary. One is from uh one week uh back in April and one is for this coming Saturday night.

[00:53:15]So, I'm not sure what the gentleman is trying to claim, right?

[00:53:20]>> But if anybody's been to an Orthodox church, they know there's plenty of scripture being read even from the Old Testament, >> right?

[00:53:28]>> And it's important to know to to to people who are watching this and maybe don't know much about orthodoxy, the there's something called a lectionary, which which says at our services and also at home, these are the things that we read every day. In the Orthodox church, we go through the entire New Testament in one year except for the book of Revelation. And the reason for that is the lectionary was set before Revelation was added to the New Testament canon. That's a different discussion. But we go through all 26 books of of the 27 of the New Testament and a significant portion of the Old Testament. Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Wisdom, Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, uh, Ezekiel, Isaiah. I mean, we could go on and on. We we go through a significant amount of the Old Testament.

[00:54:18]And here's just some examples from from two different days um, in the church. So again, if you're going to make a claim, please don't be stupid about making a claim that makes no sense and has no basis in actual fact. You know, you know where I think this might have come from are the Roman Catholics because somebody that was Roman Catholic probably said, "Oh, and the Orthodox don't read from the Old Testament in their quote unquote mass, right? And here's here's the thing. The when a and I might be wrong on this, but I'm I'm pretty sure this is where this came from because I've seen this uh complaint before. When a Roman Catholic um complains about let's say the Orthodox divine liturgy, they think that somehow the divine liturgy is simply this standalone service that has no context in it and >> never changes, never changes.

[00:55:22]>> And and the thing is in our divine liturgy, you are assuming a full cycle of services. You are assuming the uh vespers, you're assuming mattens, right?

[00:55:34]At least if not some of the other things in monasteries and the amount of Old Testament that is either embedded in the services themselves, including the divine liturgy, or readings separate like what you're demonstrating here.

[00:55:53]Those are attached to the other services. But we see all of these services as kind of like one block, right? So if if you if you want to read those, you might have to go to a different service like that is part of that block. But I mean, look at the divine liturgy. What do we sing at the beginning for those of us in the Slavic tradition? Bless the Lord, oh my soul, right? Psalm 103. Uh, praise the Lord, oh my soul. Psalm 104, right? So you have all of these these psalms. You have the psalms that are said uh before and after the epistle reading, right? That those are all psalms. You have the psalms of the of the uh communion hymns just in the divine liturgy. So they are there, but they're embedded in a way where it isn't just maybe somebody getting up and reading it like it is at the vespers. And then there is the cathisma where you're reading psalms after psalm after psalm if you're doing that in parish life. Um that would make a protestant um it it would make them blush. There there are so many scripture readings and and somdy in the worship of the Orthodox Church. And again and again and again every Protestant that has visited our church has visited our our our Orthodox church >> actually been there >> says says I cannot believe >> how much Bible was in >> your service. Right.

[00:57:39]>> Every single time they say that, >> let let me ask this question uh or answer this question here. And father, if you want to chime in, please feel free. Uh did the rectionary exist before the canonical bible? I would phrase the question a little bit differently. Did the rectionary exist before the canon of the Bible was completed?

[00:58:00]And then the answer would be yes. The cannon was known, excuse me, the lectionary was known as early as the 3rd century.

[00:58:09]>> Yeah. And and the idea of a Bible like we have it today like one book that you hold up and bound that was not a thing.

[00:58:24]Like it just wasn't right. Um, a lot of, by the way, if you ever want to do study of manuscripts, do you know where the vast majority of New Testament manuscripts come from?

[00:58:36]They come from orthodox uh, paricopies that are put together. So, the epistles, the gospels, the readings. It's just page after page of this gospel reading was read on this Sunday, this gospel reading was read on this feast day. And that's how the church used to keep the Bible going, right? As well as the quotations in the fathers. And they there's a little thought experiment that says if every Bible in the world disappeared, you would still have all of the canonical scriptures because you have the writings of the fathers and you have all of the paricopies that we use as Orthodox Christians in the daily and and weekly readings. like you you have everything.

[00:59:25]>> Right. Right. Uh okay, here's here's another one. The Lord's Supper. Now, I I I have some things I want to say about this, but his claim, this man from the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church, claims that the Lord's Supper, what we call the Holy Eucharist, uh was unleavened bread and wine, which we don't use, and they do. Now, technically, he's correct. We don't use unleavened bread and there's a reason for that. Now he cites 1 Corinthians 11:26. Now read this with me. For as often as you eat. Now remember that in 1 Corinthians 11, St. Paul is reminding the Corinthians what he was taught. I transmitted to you what I received. That in the night he was betrayed, Jesus took bread and so forth. For as often, and so he's quoting the Lord here. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till he comes. So he's claiming the guy who did this meme. That this bread cited here is unleavened bread. Now I want you to note that the Greek word used for that word bread is the word arton.

[01:00:38]Arton or artos as we would say it today in English. I want you to take a look at this from first Corinthians. Let's compare chapter 11 with Matthew 26 where Jesus or excuse me where Matthew relates. Now on the first day of the feast of the unleavened bread. So we have artos bread or leavened bread and then we have aimon or aimos some patient would would pronounce it depends on the the case it's in. The feast of unleavened bread, pon a zeimon.

[01:01:19]Unleavened bread is different from artos. Artos is leavened. Azimos is unleavened. Very clearly the Greek is is distinct and accurate here. This man who created this meme doesn't know what he's citing. Doesn't know what he's reading.

[01:01:35]Probably doesn't know any Greek to begin with. But the scriptures are very clear on the difference between Atoss and Azimos. And on the night in which he was betrayed, Jesus took Artos leaven bread.

[01:01:50]>> It's it it's it's a no-brainer. You just have to do a little bit of research.

[01:01:56]This is exactly why the Orthodox Church insists in this particular manner because number one, we are not roleplaying the last supper, right? And there is a question. So when you look at the gospels and you look at the gospel of of John and you hear the word artos, right, which is bread and specifically leavened bread, it can be used in a general sense, but when you put it up against this isumon or isumos, right? Um it's very clear there is a difference between the two. It's unleavened bread or leavened bread.

[01:02:40]And this is this is the kicker for me.

[01:02:43]The the the scriptural evidence is very clear. The scriptural evidence is very very clear. However, we insist that this bread be leavened, that is that it have active yeast in it.

[01:03:04]Because bread and wine are alive.

[01:03:10]In other words, the the the bread that does not have yeast in it is dead. It doesn't have any activity in it. Whereas the the risen bread, the bread that has leaven in it is actually alive. And the wine, it can't be grape juice. It has to be wine because it is alive. And before we receive the eukarist, we put hot water or warm water in the chalice again to give the sense that we are receiving the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ who is alive, right? He He's alive. You are receiving the lifegiving body and blood of Christ. If you are using grape juice and a cracker, they are dead.

[01:04:02]And we are receiving something that is alive. It's extremely important.

[01:04:09]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Ah here let's talk about something for which we are very well known. Icons or holy images.

[01:04:17]The claim here is that icons that he says they were not practiced. I'm not sure what he means by that but he probably means they were not used in worship. And he's got kind of a weird thing cited here. Therefore, since we are the offspring of God. Praise God for that. We ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stones, something shaped by art and man's devising. Amen. We believe in that wholeheartedly 100%.

[01:04:48]But, Father Tom, can you think of an example um way before Nika when Constantine of course corrupted the whole church? Can you think of a Jewish temple someplace in the Middle East that kind of calls into question this um idea about iconography?

[01:05:05]>> Absolutely. The the temple the first and second temple had curtains in it that had pictures of the cherubim on it. Um, and even the ark of the covenant had cherubim pic the uh like a a statue of the cherubim on each side covering it.

[01:05:26]There were pictures of trees in and like almond trees in the in the temple. And we know from early church history, we know even from second temple Jews that they placed pictures of biblical figures in their synagogues and so forth. This is again they're they are creating uh a problem that doesn't exist because when you look at the idea of idolatry, right?

[01:06:01]when if if you're going to accuse the Orthodox Church of idolatry, you better understand what idolatry actually is and what it was at the time of the apostles and in the Old Testament when Moses received the the tablets of the law.

[01:06:21]These these figures these e whether they were figures or images were worshiped as gods because they were inspirited because they were treated like they were alive. They were served food. They were um uh you know given all the um uh activity of something that was alive and they were in a sense alive with a demon right they they had that's the gods of the nations are demons so this is why God was so um absolutely against making idols he said I you know I am not an idol I do not want you to make any idols because they were demons. But when Jesus Christ comes into the world and he is the image, the express image of the father, St. Paul says, h how can you possibly justify not having an image of Christ when St. John says we have seen him? We have touched him. We have beheld his glory. Right? the glory of of as of the only father full of grace and truth. So how can you justify um not picturing the lord not as an idol? We don't in spirit icons. Uh we use them to remind us and direct our our thoughts and our minds to God himself, to his saints, to his mother. um and and they are not given the status of idols. But to you know to to kind of say that this is God that is a a pagan concept that God wanted them to steer away from. And by the way um I I would invite everybody watching this and curious about this idea um look up I I wish I I knew the title of the YouTube video that I saw the other day. It was quite shocking to me, but it was a an idol of Hindus making an idol about 5 ft high, washing it, bathing it, dressing it, putting eyes on it, uh feeding it. It was really quite quite stunning. Uh and and then of course worshiping this thing of stone that they had that they had concocted.

[01:08:57]That's idolatry and an icon, a holy minute image is not that. And to say that somehow the Christians invented it, not only completely ignores what the second temple and the first temple for that matter were all about, but even ignores uh Judaism's own um work in this area.

[01:09:18]This is these are pictures of a synagogue called the Dura Europus uh which is in I believe present day uh Iran and was a synagogue dating from at least the mid3rd century so 240 250 something like that but it may have been in use earlier certainly the the town itself dates to 300 BC but there was a Jewish settlement there um and they had a synagogue and that synagogue looked like this. And if it's emblematic of how other synagogues look like, the people who would claim that it's the Christians alone after Constantine who invented iconography, who forced iconography upon the church and things like that are ignoring the the historical evidence and the scriptural evidence quite frankly uh to those claiming that that is the case. It is not the case.

[01:10:12]>> Yeah. And I I have to tell you, I am always kind of freaked out when I see a picture of a Protestant uh church. And you can't like really call it a church, and that's why they call them like worship centers or auditoriums because that's all they are. There's no altar, right? There's a a a stage for a band >> and there's not even a cross in sight.

[01:10:41]often >> not even across. And now that may be a holdover of Protestant iconocclasm from the time of the reformation, especially the uh radical reformers, right, who were very iconoclastic.

[01:10:58]>> But Protestants have to realize that they are not even in um in sync with the Jews in that sense, right? Like I I there there is this very strange um understanding of imagery where they say, "Oh, we you know, we can't have images because they're idols." It's like you have become this the the the the heresy of dosetism, right? Where you just deny any kind of physicality.

[01:11:35]>> Physicality. Yeah. When you deny sacramentality, you say, "Oh, we don't believe in the sacraments." You know, it's just a it's just a grape juice and a cracker, right? You totally deny the goodness of God's creation and that God works through creation and God entered into his creation and became a part of his creation. If you reduce your faith to three songs in a TED talk reading out of a book, you you are missing the entire uh beauty of the incarnation and how it actually um how Christ helps us to understand what he's trying to do in restoring the creation to to bring it from corrupt corruption into this new life. And and I think it even goes into many Protestants concept of heaven, right? Like what do they think about heaven? I think they think heaven is you're floating on a cloud, you become an angel. Um and you're just pure spirit. And I I'm gonna say one more thing. Sorry, but I just I have to say this. Like we just >> we just celebrated uh last week the ascension, right? I met a guy online, a Protestant guy online who said, and I don't think Protestants ever think about this, who said when Jesus went into heaven, he cast off his body. I said, >> "Yeah, I've heard this. I've heard this." Yes.

[01:13:09]>> I said, "You, sir, are a heretic."

[01:13:11]>> Yeah.

[01:13:12]>> You have no understanding who Jesus is.

[01:13:17]what he did, what the resurrection of the dead is, you know. And I and I said, "What do you think it means when it's when it says he is seated at the right hand of the father?" They said, "That's just metaphorical.

[01:13:28]That just means he's he's like co-ruler with the father." Like, what what are you doing? What? You you just make up your own rules. You have you have denied uh the incarnation and you've basically become gnostics because you think um materiality bad spirit good >> right >> that's that's terrible terrible heresy and and honestly it it will destroy your Christian faith if you even can have it at that point.

[01:14:06]No, absolutely. And and and they think because they're right, because they follow the Bible, you know, they think that because they follow the Bible that they do things right. But that becomes a justification for doing whatever they want to do. And father father just mentioned grape juice and crackers. That's that's more than a metaphor. I mean, there are churches that hand that stuff out. I mean, they come in little plastic containers and you peel the the thing back and there's little grape juice. You know, the Bible doesn't say grape juice and crackers. It says artos, leaven bread, and it says wine. Grape juice did not exist back then. That was invented in the 19th century. Go look it up.

[01:14:47]>> So again, this is not what the Bible teaches. This is not what the Bible says. This is not what the Bible instructs. But they do it anyway because they think they're allowed to because they're right about whatever they do.

[01:14:59]Anyway, let's talk about relics. He cites something that I have no idea what has to do with relics, but Deuteronomy 18, uh, this is an admonition given to the Jews. Do not be one who conjures spells or a medium or a spiritist or one who calls up the dead. Now, the interesting thing about that admonition is that when you go to the Bible and you look up what happened at the transfiguration and when you look at what Jesus answered uh the Pharisees and and the Sadducees about when he uh when he was uh dealing with these issues, um one has to ask the question, who who did Jesus meet with on Mount Taber?

[01:15:46]Peter, James, and John saw it with their own eyes. Moses, and Elijah were there.

[01:15:52]Wait a minute. I thought they were dead.

[01:15:54]H was Jesus conjuring up their spirits or bringing them back to life? What was he doing? And and this is a problem for Protestants to explain because the fulfillment of that is in Matthew 22:32.

[01:16:08]I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. And especially those who have been living in Christ. They are not dead. They are still alive in Christ because they have become part of his body. And this kind of ecclesiology and so forth, the Protestants really haven't thought through because they chided us for it.

[01:16:35]But when we put this to them, we make them think about it, they usually will admit, okay, that I've never heard it that way before. that gives me something to think about. I have to think about that more. And we would say, "Good, do that. Please think about that more. Get back to us because you're clearly wrong on your understanding of the living and the dead."

[01:16:52]>> Yeah. And I I think it's a denial of the resurrection and what the resurrection is. I think that many Protestants have reduced the resurrection to resuscitation, right? like they they don't understand what resurrection is. Resurrection is eternal life in the this in the body that transcends the mere kind of corruption and 3D existence that we have right now. And if we believe that Christ is raised from the dead, and if we believe what Jesus says to Martha when, you know, he goes to to Lazarus's tomb and he says, "I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in me, though he may die, he shall live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die." Do you believe this? I think Protestants have to say, "No, I don't. I don't really believe this.

[01:17:57]Because look at the book of Revelation.

[01:18:00]Who are we looking at? Who is gathered around the throne of God and of the lamb?

[01:18:07]What are these 24 elders? Who are they?

[01:18:11]Um who who are the innumerable uh thousands upon tous thousands of people that are bowing bowing down and worshiping at the lamb? Spirits don't bow down, right? Spirits don't wear robes. Spirits don't wear crowns. But we believe that our participation, this is so important, our participation as members of the body of Christ means we have by the Holy Spirit participation in the the fullness of the kingdom of God to the extent that we can. Right?

[01:18:50]The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. The the Holy Spirit is the foretaste of the kingdom of God. The Holy Spirit is the is is the down payment of our of our eternal life. When we go to the divine liturgy, when we are in the church, we are gathering with as it says in Hebrews at the end of Hebrews, right? We are coming to Mount Zion. We are coming to the innumerable spirits of the righteous made perfect. We're coming to an innumerable gathering of angels, right?

[01:19:25]Um to the company of the firstborn.

[01:19:28]That's what we're doing right now. And the dead are alive in Christ. And if you don't believe that, if you if you go to the Old Testament and you pull out these verses that say, "Oh, well, it's talking to the dead." Then you don't believe in the resurrection. you don't believe in the Holy Spirit who who allows you to foretaste of the resurrected life in the church when you are um joined to the body of Christ. And by the way, that's the only place where you can receive it.

[01:20:05]So their their understanding is u so bifurcated and frankly so flat.

[01:20:14]Why would you why would you settle for a faith that says, "Well, you know, I don't have any participation in um the the the kingdom to come." Well, then you don't believe in the Holy Spirit. You don't believe in the resurrection. You don't believe in the church. You don't believe you're joined to Christ. It's like, "What's the point? This is just you're just doing a book study. That's all you're doing."

[01:20:39]>> Yeah.

[01:20:41]Yeah. Very true. Very true. I want to point out uh this about relics. This is from a document called the martyrdom of Polycarp uh dating from the um early to mid early um 2nd century. Um when Polycarp's body was finally burned, the centurion then seeing the strife excited by the Jews placed the body in the midst of the fire and consumed it.

[01:21:06]Accordingly, we, this is the faithful, afterwards took up his bones as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place. Now read the rest. where being gathered together as opportunity is allowed us with joy and rejoicing. The Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom both in memory of those and get this the martyrdom is going to be celebrated both in memory of those who have already finished their course echoing St. Paul's use of that word, you know, running the the race and finishing the course and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.

[01:21:58]This is how the early church believe. We were not dedicating ourselves to idols and dead things. This was not what this was all about. The people back then, I mean, Polycarp was a disciple of St. John the theologian. St. in the west, he's called St. John the evangelist or St. John the um I forget um the writer of the fourth gospel um >> religion evangelist >> evangelist thank you father uh certainly he would not have done or taught something that was contrary to what St. John taught him. And certainly one of the things that we understand from the early church is that the bones of the martyrs, the relics if you will, were very precious to them because these people were not dead. Their soul had gone in to be the to be with the Lord.

[01:22:47]But the very body being transformed as it is through baptism and crismation and anointed with holy oil and partaking of the body and blood of the Lord, you know, all the time, something happens to that body. And in many cases, we know of saints whose bodies have been incorrupt.

[01:23:04]Uh even though they've been in dark, dank, moldy places and things like that, yet the flesh has not uh been corrupted.

[01:23:12]Signs of holiness, you be the judge. But the church has always been very careful to make very clear that we are not gnostics. We are not dositists. When we die, the body is not to be thrown in the oven and and uh cremated. That's why cremation is not allowed in the Orthodox church.

[01:23:28]>> Yep.

[01:23:28]>> Uh these are things that are very precious to us.

[01:23:31]>> Yeah. I was I was just going to mention that and that's why I think it you know everything is connected here right there. or misunderstanding or or just, you know, not really accounting for the resurrection of the body where Jesus says, "Touch my hands. Touch my my side.

[01:23:52]See, I'm not a spirit." Like, you know, uh I have flesh and bones. Uh he eats fish. He eats honeycomb. Like, how can you deny this? And then um and I think it's it's really a beautiful scene after St. Stephen the the f the first martyr the proto martyr is stoned to death right it says Saul was consenting to his death and people were throwing their coats in front of him right and then it says in Acts 8:2 and devout men carried Stephen to his burial and made great lamentation over him right this this particular phrase shows the beautiful uh care with which they kept his body.

[01:24:45]There is no um there's no example in the New Testament of any uh burning of someone's body intentionally. And even in the Old Testament, there's one example where they burned a body because they had to get out of dodge very quickly. Other than that, it never never happened. that you know we have to understand that the idea of the relics, the idea of the resurrection, this is the because we believe that Christ took on human flesh for our salvation and joined it to his divine nature that all of these things have to be true. the the the body has to be um deified uh the body of Christ and therefore uh we also can be sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Our very bodies, it's not just the way you think. It's not just about thinking, it's about your body which is being sanctified by God himself.

[01:25:56]>> Amen. So, Father, tell me, um, I I guess we have a problem with long robes in the church, but you know what? I just figured out what the what the problem is, and it doesn't apply to us because we're not scribes, and they can't wear the long robes. So, being priests, I guess we can wear long robes. We're good. Let's go on to the next slide.

[01:26:16]Unless you want to say something, of course.

[01:26:18]>> It's it's silly. It's it's abs. So, that means you can't go in the marketplace.

[01:26:23]So, I better never see a Baptist minister in the marketplace. Um, because you you can't do that. I This This is This is very low tier, right? This is this is bad. This is like call no man father. You You're not understanding.

[01:26:41]>> And and you know, by the way, you have to reconcile this with the book of Revelation.

[01:26:48]You have to reconcile it with, well, why do they have robes? because it's what it says.

[01:26:55]>> So, it's metaphorical.

[01:26:56]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[01:26:57]>> And what what isn't metaphorical at that point?

[01:27:02]>> What's that? I'm sorry.

[01:27:03]>> I I'm just saying like if they say the robes that you see in the book of Revelation are metaphorical, then what isn't metaphorical? They they will just explain away everything as, well, that's just a metaphor, right? They they they buried Steven's bones, but that's just a metaphor. They um you know, they they had bread and wine, but that's just a metaphor. Everything is a metaphor.

[01:27:29]Everything is s symbolic, and they don't even understand what symbol is.

[01:27:39]Yeah. Yeah. So, let let's talk about u authority. Wait, wait. Let's talk about Okay, we talked about that. Let's talk about authority. You know, we could we could have a whole series, not just one even evening episode, but a whole series on solos scriptorera. Uh again, second Timothy, all scripture is given by inspiration of God is profitable for blah blah blah that the man may complete. Okay, we agree. We absolutely agree. But nowhere anywhere in the scriptures does it say scripture alone.

[01:28:08]It does not say that anywhere. So I don't know how we can um really come up against solos scriptor people but let's go back to scripture because this is what they want us to do. We can't quote the fathers because they don't recognize the fathers. We have to do it from scripture. Okay good. Let's do it from scripture. 1 Corinthians 11:2. Now I praise you brethren that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 3:6. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or by our epistle. And then in 36, but we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly, and not according to the tradition which he received from us. And Philippians 4:9, the things which you learned, he's talking to the Philippians, and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you. And this is before any of the scriptures were even written that I'm presuming the independent fundamentalist Baptist here is referring to or Baptist is referring to.

[01:29:26]So when you would talk about where's the source of authority quite frankly Paul said me because I have received authority from Jesus Christ himself to preach and teach and blah blah blah and he did >> yeah there's yeah >> they you know it it's a really interesting thing um Dr. Humphrey, I know she's been on your show before. Uh she explains in her book about tradition that in the English version of some Protestant Bibles, what they do is kind of like a bait and switch.

[01:30:02]So when they um this word tradition that you keep pointing out, right, in in Greek is paradosis, right? It's something that is handed down or passed on.

[01:30:17]But what they do, and I think it's the NIV, when the word is to be in a negative light, right? So for instance, um let's say it's like Mark chapter 7. Mark chapter 7 is where Jesus is talking to all the Pharisees and the Jews and it says um you know why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders and Jesus says you have let or or it says uh Jesus says you have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions right that's paradosis but paradosis also has like a positive connotation like it does here now I praise you brethren you remember me in all things.

[01:31:08]Keep the traditions paradise just as I delivered them to you. But what they will do is in certain times they won't call it traditions like in 2 Thessalonians 2. They don't say traditions. In uh the NIV it says, "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you." They won't say traditions because they want to make traditions look like a bad thing, not a good thing, but it's just a word, right? The the tradition is something that is passed on. So, they do this. Um here's another 2 Thessalonians 3:6. That's another one, right? In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, we command you brothers and sisters to keep away from every believer who is idol and disruptive, does not live according to the teaching you receive from us. They change the word from tradition to teaching.

[01:32:10]>> And it's not even the word teaching either.

[01:32:12]>> Yeah. They want to make it look bad.

[01:32:15]This is this is like manipulating the the scriptures.

[01:32:21]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:32:22]>> People don't realize that. They really don't.

[01:32:27]It's it's a it's a really horrible thing that they did to the English translation to make it look like tradition bad, some other word good. That's not what the Bible says.

[01:32:43]>> Right. Right.

[01:32:46]And so we, you know, we we come back to to the the we come to the end now because we've gone through our meme and and kind of tried to address these these these things that we we hear. Um and and and so where are we? I I would say this to anybody watching this and especially to any nonorthodox people watching this. Um don't believe everything you hear about us. don't believe especially what Protestants who are losing people to us coming primarily out of the evangelical world right now.

[01:33:22]Um be careful what they you hear them saying about us. Do your own research.

[01:33:26]Do your own reading. Read what the early church uh said because you know when when St. Paul one of my favorite um verses from the New Testament when St. Paul said to Timothy, Timothy, my son, what I have taught you, teach to other people. And and actually the word there is tradition to other people what I have traditioned to you, passed on to you so that they can teach others so that they can tradition. So that they can pass down to others what I have passed down to you. And if you think to yourself as uh that that Paul was a first generation Christian and Timothy represents a second generation of Christians.

[01:34:10]I often say, wouldn't it be kind of cool if we could know what that third and fourth generation were taught.

[01:34:18]And that's exactly what the apostolic fathers are. That generation existed.

[01:34:24]That generation wrote stuff. They preserved stuff. They passed stuff on.

[01:34:28]And we know it. We can read them today 2,000 years later. Well, 1900 years later, we can read what the disciples, Clement mentioned in the Romans, um Polycarp I mentioned earlier, Ignatius um of Antioch who was a disciple of Peter. I mean, the list goes on and on.

[01:34:44]We know what these people taught. And what they taught is what the Orthodox Church has preserved to this day. Not the independent fundamentalist Baptist church, not the evangelical church, not Billy Joe Bob storefront church, and quite frankly what none of the Protestant churches have preserved.

[01:35:03]Although some have attempted to one degree or another to be faithful to what they thought they needed to be faithful to, they're still wrong because they're not part of that deposit of faith that was handed on from one generation to the next. It's a hard thing to say. It's a hard thing to hear, but we like to preach the truth in love. Come check out the Orthodox Church. Come find out more about us. Do your own research. Don't trust what other people have said, unless of course it comes from us and then you can trust every word of it.

[01:35:34]Father, some thoughts from you.

[01:35:36]>> That those were excellent. And I would just add that the the fallacy of taking the scriptures and saying that every Christian must take the Bible and sort of reinvent and re kind of create what the church is is bound to fail. We can see that uh in so many ways throughout the the western world through the Protestant world. And again without sounding uh like we hate Protestants or whatever these you know there are so many faithful Protestant Christians that want something more. They want depth. They want um a a a deeper understanding and they are running into these inconsistencies in the scriptures that they they don't understand why the Protestant church and and whichever one that they belong to um is is kind of overlooking that. Um I agree. I would say there you have nothing to lose by simply visiting an Orthodox church. go to a Saturday evening vespers or go to liturgy. Maybe you have a friend that's Orthodox. Go with them. Um the the people there will treat you very well. You can um you can participate, you can not participate.

[01:37:07]You just take it all in. Maybe do a little reading first, but you won't be disappointed. And in fact, you will uh discover that the scriptures will not simply be a kind of puzzle that you have to solve. They will become for you the words of life that um that will come alive, right? They will come alive because now you will see it demonstrated in the worship. And um I that's my prayer for all of those who listen to this stream and listen to all of of Father Jonathan and Justin's uh streams that are so helpful that we um come to experience uh Christ in the fullness of the church and then you'll see um a side of the Christian faith that you never thought existed.

[01:38:01]and and and that phrase come and see. Uh like I said at the beginning of the stream, 16 to 18,000 people over this past uh uh Lenton Holy Week season in April. Um and more waiting. Uh there's room for you. Come and see. We are waiting for you. The church is here for you. Uh no one's going to judge you. No one's going to turn you away. Um but uh pray over it and ask God for guidance.

[01:38:27]Um uh if you're if you're watching this and you like what you heard, share this around. Show it to your friends. Post it on your uh your your Facebook uh page so that others can see it. We want to generate conversation. We're not trying to beat people over the head with this stuff, but we want to generate a conversation. There's a lot of false stuff out there. There's a lot of fallacies. There's a lot of uh the bearing of false witness, one of the violations of the Ten Commandments. Uh and it's not right, and we've got to address it. So, um, if you like what you heard, share it. Um, Father Tom's got a great podcast on Ancient Faith Radio. Go check that out. Ancient Faith Live to Father.

[01:39:06]>> Yeah, Ancient Faith Today live. Uh, every Tuesday we're live at 5:00 pm. Uh, so you can go over to Ancient Faith Ministries uh, channel on YouTube and join us. We'd love to have you.

[01:39:19]>> Amen. God bless you all. Uh may it be blessed and may your t walk with the Lord and your time with the Lord uh increase in life and faith and spiritual understanding. Good night.