The Gnostic Tries The Same Tired Arguments With Bob The Christian - Speakers Corner

[00:00:13][singing] [music] [singing] Do you want to talk now?

[00:00:31]>> I don't mind. I mean, sure. If you want.

[00:00:33]>> Yeah. Go.

[00:00:34]>> He did stop interrupting when I warned him. He did. Fair play. Fair play.

[00:00:37]>> If you want, I'll give you like 10 10 or 15 minutes.

[00:00:40]>> I I I have a problem because you have a >> Can you talk to everybody else?

[00:00:47]>> So, I like a lot of Buddhist ideas. I like a lot of Shiva tantra ideas and stuff. I'm a I'm not I I would say I'm a fairly gnostic individual. Now, Gnosticism didn't exist in first century Judea. There were just lots of different types of Christianity. Now, Paul's version of Christianity has very little or if not any knowledge of the gospel traditions. He says nothing about Pontius Pilate. He doesn't. He refers to the 12 and then mentions Peter, James, and John outside of the 12, excuse me, in the resurrection account, which is totally different from Mark's resurrection account. I was just talking to a fellow over there, and Matthew is copying Mark and Luke is copying Matthew and Mark. And we now know this. It's really easy to shift just check the the gospels and be objective and you know follow the scholars like Mark Goodaker um on the subject very accomplished scholar he's Matthew is copying Mark verbatim in multiple areas so we don't have four different gospel accounts that come to us in about 180 which is when they fall into history we have one which is Mark And Mark is extraordinarily fictional. It looks fictional. There are no stories anywhere in the first century about what Mark says.

[00:02:14]>> Can I reply?

[00:02:14]>> The first time we get to the Christian literature, which is in order of the letters and Hebrews and so on, it's a celestial price.

[00:02:23]>> Can I reply?

[00:02:24]>> That they're talking about. And you can go fact check me.

[00:02:26]>> Can I reply?

[00:02:26]>> All day long. And this is true.

[00:02:28]>> Right. So for those of you that don't know, the brother Christian comes here. He's not a Christian brother. His name is Christian. But he comes here every week and he says the same things every week.

[00:02:40]And we have the same conversation every week, ladies and gentlemen. And And the thing is And the thing is And the thing And the thing is, guys, the thing is, guys, you can't fill up a cup that is already full. However, for the sake of you that might be new to the arguments, I always indulge it. Let's be clear. If you stop interrupting me or just go away, right? Don't stop being rude.

[00:03:06]Don't stop being rude. Stop being rude or I will just interrupt you whenever I want and the conversation breaks down as it always does because you can never you can never control yourself. You're like a child. Like behave like an adult. Just try for once. Right? So every week we have the same conversation. It goes through the same arguments and ends in the same way. But for those of you that are new to the arguments, I will indulge again for the 50th time in a row over 10 years. Firstly, the gospel precedes the writing of any book in the New Testament. Both Paul's writings and the gospel writings. And the gospel as Paul says in his writings is a tradition that was known amongst the earliest church before he converted.

[00:04:06]The book of acts says that Paul converted to a religion. He didn't become he didn't found a religion. He converted to it. And that religion believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Paul talks about the true resurrection, the bodily resurrection of Jesus. That is talked about in the book of Acts and it is talked about in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, ladies and gentlemen. In other words, it is all there. It is there in all of the text of the New Testament. This idea of the bodily resurrection, the idea that g that Paul doesn't know the Jesus tradition is a myth created by modern gnostics like him. It is not, ladies and gentlemen, the position of scholars like Dr. Daniel Wallace or Dr. Mike Lacona or Dr. James White or Dr. um what's his name? the teacher of Bartman, >> Dr. Bruce Meza, or even ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Bartman, who recognizes that Paul is familiar with the Jesus tradition. And how do we know that that Jesus tradition is in Paul's writings?

[00:05:34]Why? Because Jesus and I'm landing so you can reply is because Jesus talks about the establishment of the kingdom of God being connected to his arrival and to his teachings and it is founded on him. And Paul teaches that you enter the kingdom of God through becoming a follower of Jesus and that Jesus is bringing about the kingdom of God and the resurrection tradition is found in Acts in the Gospels and in the epistles of Paul.

[00:06:11]>> Over to you.

[00:06:11]>> Yeah. So Luke and Acts are subsequently written upon Mark's writing. Mark is his heroically like you couldn't get more of a book that is more full of fictional stuff than Mark and and Mark is quite primitive. Matthew and Luke have to go back and they're looking at Mark and thinking of ways to embellish the story.

[00:06:36]If you look at just Matthew and Luke's birth narratives, their nativity narratives, they're contradictory.

[00:06:43]They weren't even trying to be historical. I don't and John's story as well is all over the place. It has sequences and events in the the sequence of that gospel that don't fit Mark at all. They're not trying to I don't I believe honestly I do not believe that they were trying to be historical because they would have done a way better job at it. The resurrection stories are different in the four gospels. All of them have minor differences. Acts gives Jesus a 40 40 day period um of his life. You can check the gospels for themselves to prove this to yourselves.

[00:07:24]Um yeah, Matthew is just a typology of of Moses.

[00:07:28]>> Can I reply?

[00:07:29]>> No, you can't. Yeah. Sorry, bro. Um but like what is happening is a typology.

[00:07:35]What they're trying to do is and this is was done in ancient Hebrew and it's done all over the place in ancient Greek. who may may be smiling, right? Emilatio, immortatio, mimises. Mimises is the copying the the the literary emulation of books that came before. And Adysius, funny enough, which I saw a couple of days ago, actually has some fairly dense sequences in it. go to have Macdonald. He's noticed that the Greco Roman myths are actually incorporated in certain places in the Gospels. And why would they be?

[00:08:14]Because they're written in Greek for Greco Roman audiences. They are fictions.

[00:08:20]>> They are not real. I was saying that um you know the typology of Moses and the the destruction of the firstborn and stuff like this.

[00:08:30]Herod and Herod trying to kill all the the firstborn that's near nowhere attested in history. If you're going around and trying to kill all of the firstborn, was it in Judea or can I then [ __ ] find it in the historical record somewhere? Someone's going to say something about it. Even the hostile Romans are going to go, "Well, why the hell are they killing all of these children? What's going on?" Of course, it's not in history and acts is not found. any of the amazing heroic stories when you look at Peter doing exactly the same things as Socrates is doing in the aropus have a look at that story like nine different sequential parallels they're copying >> okay let me reply >> and here's why it's because that was the literary skill of the day emulating and outdoing their rivals >> right let me reply >> that's as simple as >> so ladies and gentlemen >> let me just correct him on something because he tried to tell you that Mark doesn't teach the resurrection.

[00:09:32]He tried to say that Mark doesn't and he said that it's like I'm now going to interrupt you whenever I want. I'm going to interrupt you. Ladies and gentlemen, as predicted, the conversation breaks down because you can't behave like an adult. So, let me just point out to you what it says in Mark. It says this. This is Jesus's words. For he was teaching his disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him. And when he has been killed, he will rise in three days, ladies and gentlemen." In other words, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is in the Gospel of Mark. Now I want you to remember that I will interrupt Christian whenever I want because Christian like the child that he is every week can never control himself every single week. Now let me point out to you that Paul also teaches bodily resurrection.

[00:10:37]Where does Paul teach bodily resurrection?

[00:10:40]>> He does it in 1 Corinthians 15. And I'm going to read from verse 12 to the verse 20. So listen now. If Christ is preached that he has been raised from the dead, how does some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain. Your faith also is vain. Moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God because we testified against God that he raised Christ whom he did not raise. If in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless. you are still in your sin. THEN THOSE ALSO WHO have fallen asleep [screaming] in Christ have perished.

[00:11:50]If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pied.

[00:11:59]>> So in other words, shut up. I'm not finished. So in other words, ladies and gentlemen, Paul is talking about if you have faith in this life and our faith in the resurrection, the bodily resurrection is not true, then those who are dead have only put faith in Christ in this life for no reason at all because Christ was not raised. In other words, Paul is connecting the bodily resurrection of all of the church with the bodily resurrection of Jesus. He is using the bodily resurrection of Jesus as a proof to the bodily resurrection of all believers.

[00:12:47]And I would ask Christian this one question.

[00:12:50]>> Okay?

[00:12:51]>> I would ask Christian this question.

[00:12:53]When Paul says these words, then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

[00:13:02]What does he mean by fallen asleep?

[00:13:07]>> Right. So, >> is the body is it a bodily resurrection that you heard from God here? Does it say sorry Bob does it say he was raised bodily? Right. I'm trying to find the those quotes from Corinthians because I think >> talks about dead. Talks about dead.

[00:13:25]Look, it says listen to what it says.

[00:13:28]Listen carefully. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless.

[00:13:33]You are still in your sin. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. What does it mean by listen carefully?

[00:13:42]Listen carefully. Listen carefully. Now if Christ is preached that he has not been raised from the dead, what does dead mean in this passage?

[00:13:55]>> What does it mean?

[00:13:57]>> What does it mean dead in this passage?

[00:14:01]>> What does it mean dead? Answer the question.

[00:14:04]>> Resurrection.

[00:14:05]>> Answer the question. What does it mean dead in the passage?

[00:14:09]>> Because and again I know this. It's because anything >> sunream.

[00:14:14]>> No, I'm fine. Anything on this body is already corrupted or everything on this on this earth is impure.

[00:14:22]>> What does it mean dead?

[00:14:23]>> Christ is raised.

[00:14:24]>> What does it mean? Dead >> body in a resurrection body. I'm I'm sorry. My my internet ain't working.

[00:14:32]>> Yes. Every week >> if you check and I can find it for you.

[00:14:36]No problem. Written on the >> I'd love you just to answer my question.

[00:14:41]What does dead mean in the passage? Who?

[00:14:44]What does he mean? The people are dead.

[00:14:47]What does that mean?

[00:14:50]>> Dionis is raised up.

[00:14:53]>> Do we take those things seriously? Do we take Dionis's resurrection seriously?

[00:14:59]>> Dionis is not resurrected in the way that Jesus is resurrected. What happens is that he descends into the realm of the dead and then walks back out again.

[00:15:11]That is not the idea that he died bodily and descended into the dead. He is misquing the story of Dianisis. And it's not I don't even think it's Dian Isis. I think he got that wrong.

[00:15:26]>> There's a lot of resurrections in the ancient world.

[00:15:29]>> Anyway, bro, I don't want to I don't know what I don't want to go on forever.

[00:15:32]So, if you can have your last point and then we can bring this to an end.

[00:15:36]>> Is a different body. You are changed in on death and ra you are risen differently. And he makes a point um about referencing Adam as well. Adam is born.

[00:15:47]>> You haven't answered my question in a different body. So it's not the same thing. And I understand the gospels say that. But Paul, as I said, is talking about a different it's a different theology.

[00:15:59]>> These are just claims. Just claims >> just claims. Every week it's the same claims. And you never ever bring any evidence. That's not evidence of your position.

[00:16:10]>> There are no anyway, brother. It was lovely talking to you. Let's bring it to an end. Let's bring it to an end. Let's bring it to an end. Let's bring it to an end. Let's bring it to an end, bro.

[00:16:22]Because brother, let's just bring it to an end because you're not convicting me and these aren't your cameras. So, if you want to set up your own camera, do your own talk. Let people come and talk to you.

[00:16:33]Every week he comes out with the same claims. He never brings never brings any evidence. Never brings any evidence.

[00:16:40]Just makes the same claims every Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, anyway, look after yourself. Have a good day.

[00:16:49]>> Bye-bye. No, go. Just just just leave it, bro. Right. Any questions, ladies and gentlemen?

[00:16:56]>> Any questions?

[00:16:59]>> Yeah. Go on, sir.

[00:17:01]House.

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