Polygamy: Social, Economic and Emotional Costs

追加: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]The reason why I say we we miss out a lot when we don't look at it in its structural sense is because without addressing what is sustaining it even the individual accountability doesn't hold you know um I think it's important that we're unpacking for men for example if the the the reason what is driving it is lineage continuity it's expansion it's all of that if we don't redefine what that means the individual ual regulation of it cannot hold if the issue is economic aspects. I know somebody was telling me I think yesterday or so that you know you know you you feminists like talking about some of these things but a lot of these young women and girls are actually choosing to marry older men because they are economically stable you know and so the question then is are they choosing to marry economically older stable men because they love polygamy or is it tied to economic security that if I'm married to this older man even if I'm his fourth or fifth life. I'm going to be taken care of economically and there's a sense of financial security that come with it despite the restrictions of your financial security within that. It makes logical sense for for women in those in those conditions.

[00:01:20]>> I think this is where my my opinion really gets stronger, okay, is in that aspect because I have seen it multiple times people giving that excuses. I I tell my friends I said I've seen men marrying a second wife for two reason.

[00:01:35]One they give the same excuse you just said that um they had no choice. They were forced you know [clears throat] um whether they marrying for a a a ghost marriage or there is a distance with the wife and the wife is not taking care of the family and now they need to get a second wife to take care of mom and dad.

[00:01:52]Um and they they completely removed themselves from that dynamic or the decision. So, I've seen that play out a lot, which I think is a coward way for a man to handle a situation. Um, seriously. And I also see it the other way. Um, where they they they use polygamist as a discipline to discipline the first wife. Um, because they no longer in love. They don't there's something they don't like about this woman anymore. instead of communicating or going to therapy and resolve it, they are quick and easy to get a second wife so that they can avoid this first one.

[00:02:27]>> Hello everyone, welcome again to another episode of Gerti TV. Today we'll be talking about polygamy. So the issues we'll be talking about uh will be the personal views of uh Miss Aloa Tim and Missi.

[00:02:45]So that's the first thing we'll discuss.

[00:02:47]The other thing is polygamy in the South Sudanese society as a cultural reality and also as in some cases an excuse used by some young men to marry a second wife that doesn't follow the traditional way in which polygamy was practiced. The third uh issue we'll be discussing are the social, emotional and economic costs of polygamy in the family and in society. We'll also talk about the power dynamic within a polygamous family because uh the power shifts between the man and the wife and when the other women are added to the family there's always a shift like who wields the most power and then the last topic we'll be discussing is whether polygamy should be criminalized whether there should be a legislation to govern or control polygamy. So these are the topics uh that we'll be discussing. So for those of you who are new here, support the channel. You can uh become a member monthly subscription. So you can contribute whatever you you can contribute. There's also super thanks.

[00:03:50]So that will go a long way to support the channel and what uh what I do here.

[00:03:54]All right, welcome again to Qu TV. It was really um nice to have you last time and I'm really pleased to have you on again on this important topic and we'll have other other conversations uh in the future. So I want us to begin by talking about your views on on polygamy. Alo if you want to begin what is your personal view on polyam?

[00:04:22]>> Thank you for having us on. I know this has been a very long overdue discussion.

[00:04:27]So glad to continue the conversation from where we we left it last time. Um my view is very robust but I know we probably have only an hour so I will try to keep it um to keep it narrow.

[00:04:42]I think what will be very helpful for me in this conversation is not framing polygamy as a choice issue or an individual choice issue of one man having multiple wives or you know women suffering under this context. I think it would really be helpful to situate it and look at polygamy as a social system um and moving away from the reductive aspect of it or the moral debate of whether it's right or wrong. I think for me that would be very helpful in how we think about this conversation today because polygamy is a social system.

[00:05:18]It's a social system that is shaped by social, it is shaped by political, it is shaped by economic, it is shaped by power dynamics. And so it doesn't just exist as a choice issue and and and just a man marrying women. It's also not a a romantic conversation of or marital choice conversation. And so I really think it's helpful that we think about it in in that context. Um I grew up in a polygamous household or I come from a polygamous household. So for me this is not a theoretical or some abstract discussion you know and growing up in that household or in in in the system itself has shaped me in so many ways.

[00:06:00]And so when I talk about polygamy it's it's not just what I know it to be. also what I've experienced it to be you know in my own life growing up and it's very complex you know there is no one experience of it there is no one story of polygamy um and there is no one right or wrong way to think about it because everybody experiences it differently even though I grew up in a polygamous household my experiences of the system itself are different from how my brothers probably experience it they are different from how even my own sisters experience it even how my mothers, you know, my multiple mothers have experienced it. So for me that nuance is very important in how we are unpacking it. Um and a lot of my work, my feminist consciousness and everything that I do is probably largely largely tied to my experiences in polygamy as a system growing up as a girl, as a child.

[00:06:58]And it does come with so many layers to it. You know, like I said, it's not just about that my father chose to have multiple wives or that several women chose to marry my father. It's way more than that, you know, and so it did shape how we were brought up. It did shape relationships we have with each other. I think even the most perfect scenario of polygamy does not go without all of the social constraints around it, be it relational aspect and the competitions within these households. For me, it wasn't just polygamy. It was also polygamy in a multithnic context of it.

[00:07:34]So my my dad also had wives from different ethnic backgrounds. And that also introduced a layer within that structure. And so issues of hierarchy you know you know like whose wives but I don't know which wives children are those and that has a lot of meanings attached to it depending on also how people see your mothers in the hierarchy of who is a older wife who is a younger wife who is you know all of these dynamics come to play in just and the relationships the extended relationships even on the mat uh the the the the maternal side of of these dynamics you know and So it's it's a very complex system that sometimes I find deeply problematic when we reduce the conversation to choices that individuals are making or reduce it to a romantic issue because it is shaped by different things. You know for men for example there's a lot of status attached to it that having you know more wives comes with a certain cultural social status to it and so the reasons they practice it are more than just the individual choices. They are tied to other factors. When we go back to the the kinship system that we've historically operated in, it's also tied to security in the larger sense and we see how our people take pride in in large clans and large, you know, families. And so there is also survival attached to that that the bigger the clan, the more power the clan has. And in in the historical days where intercomunial violence was intense, obviously there was more political attachment to that. And so when we participate in polygamy, you know, it's in that expansion of lineage, you know, it's in in women feeling the social responsibility of their contributing to building this lineage. It's one of the reasons we see issues like wife inheritance or ghost marriages still exist because it's deeply tied to lineage and how we think about expansion and continuity and what it means to uphold those. So my personal views are deeply tied into those recognitions. you know when we when we talk about the economic aspect of it for a lot of us as women our social status economic status is also tied to some of these marriages you know and so whether you get to inherit whether you get to to belong is also largely tied to that so personal view is I think it's a conversation that we need to have in its holistic sense without just how I feel about it as well as an individual because it is a social systemic issue that requires us to look at it from that holistic view and not on a personal view aspect of what I think about polygamy for example.

[00:10:21]>> Thank you. Thank you. So this this two thing as a system and also within that system no single person has the same experience within that social system. So we'll come back to that. That's a really really good thing. Say thank you Najak your personal view. Well, thank you.

[00:10:37]Thank you for that deep understanding of polygamy as a system because I personally don't have that background or that understanding of how polygamy or what it's like growing up in a polygamy household because my dad was not when I was growing up. So my personal opinion about polygamy is mainly a modern understanding of what it is um is social economics impact of it and the personal choices that are being made around it and how they are being made. Um so I think this is a good conversation because you bringing a different aspect of what it is from my personal experience of what it is. So, I really do appreciate this and I feel like I'm going to learn a lot today. Um, because we are totally in a different aspect of what this is. Yeah. Um, >> my dad is a polygamist right now, but he didn't he didn't get into that until my own diary. It was my diary from my marriage that he took and married his second wife. So, we we didn't grow up in that. But as a young girl, I also see and my my siblings, I've seen them and I see how our family dynamic shifted after that second marriage. So I can speak from that perspective, but as a child and a young woman growing up, that was not my experience at all. Um, but now I I find myself in a in a totally different system where I'm surrounded by sisters and friends and and relatives that are in that dynamic and myself almost even finding myself in that dynamic. So, um, I can speak from that perspective and personal opinion of what do I think a polygamist play, what role it plays. Um, I think it does have a a it has in it has its role in our society. Okay, it does have its role and when I think about what role it plays, I can feel that it it doesn't have to be always negative. It depends on how it's being brought out, how is being played and what type of individual or what type of family system is finding themsel and it's mainly the man, you know, what type of man is is finding himself or thinking about being a polygamous or bringing another woman in the family. I think for me um is where my mindset is. Um are you you know is this a man that is has the the leadership quality? Is this a man that can speak and and and said things clearly and have the financial responsibility to have multiple homes?

[00:13:14]Can he lead multiple homes? So that's where I come in. I don't I don't always just rule it out and think that it's a bad thing. Um it's way deeper than that for me. It has questions and that I have that need to be answered. It has u me observing what type of person this is in the household. So um it's it's hard for me to just have a personal opinion of no is bad or is good. It's there are some questions that I have to get into in order for me to determine.

[00:13:42]>> Okay. So I want to go back to what Al said and you also uh spoke about that in terms of polygamy as a system. Do we run the risk of excusing individual within that system? Because some people would say, "Yeah, it's a system I have no choice. So this is something I have to do. I was given pressure by my family to take a second wife." Or they will say, "Okay, your wife live in the other town and we live here. So marry another wife." So do we run the risk of excusing individual if we see it as a system?

[00:14:16]joke.

[00:14:17]>> I think yes.

[00:14:20]>> I think this is where my my opinion really gets stronger. Okay. Is in that aspect because I have seen it multiple times people giving that excuses. I I tell my friends I said I've seen men marrying a second wife for two reason.

[00:14:36]One they give the same excuse you just said that um they had no choice. they were forced, you know, um whether [clears throat] they marrying for a a a ghost marriage or there is a distance with the wife and the wife is not taking care of the family and now they need to get a second wife to take care of mom and dad. Um and they they completely remove themselves from that dynamic or the decision. So I've seen that play out a lot which I think is a coward way for a man to handle a situation um seriously. Okay. And I also see it the other way. Um where they they they use polygamist as a discipline to discipline the first wife. Um because they no longer in love. They don't there's something they don't like about this woman anymore. Instead of communicating or going to therapy and resolve it, they are quick and easy to get a second wife so that they can avoid this first wife.

[00:15:29]um from my surrounding and from what I've seen in the last 20 30 years that I've been an adult, these are the two reason I have seen the modern men today in our sin community using polygamy um as a discipline for the first wife and also as a scape and not taking accountability and responsibility for the choice that they are making. Either way they are using 100% disagree with it and a family that that get into a polygamy in such a situation cannot survive. I've I've seen a lot of divorces because of that because that's not how our parents and grandparent did it back then. So why are we doing it that way?

[00:16:10]>> No. Alo >> yeah before you before you answer that there there's something Naj said about that she doesn't see it as you know something that is black and white is bad and good do you also share that and then you can go into the the the individual system thing >> no absolutely and so I think for me based on my experience um I wouldn't choose to be in a polygamous relationship absolutely um and And and and that is because of just the impact that that arrangement and structure has had on myself and right now where I am in my life, what dignity means for me as a woman, what well-being means for me, what partnership means for me, and what also romantic connections mean for me, you know, and so it's not a choice I would make based on where I am right now. um as a preference for example with that said um when it comes to the system and the individual aspect of it the reason why I say we we miss out a lot when we don't look at it in its structural sense is because without addressing what is sustaining it even the individual accountability doesn't hold you know um I think it's important that we're unpacking for men for example if the the the reason what is driving it is lineage continuity. It's expansion.

[00:17:40]It's all of that. If we don't redefine what that means, the individual regulation of it cannot hold. if the issue is economic aspects. I know somebody was telling me, I think yesterday or so, that, you know, you know, you you feminists like talking about some of these things, but a lot of these young women and girls are actually choosing to marry older men because they're economically stable, you know.

[00:18:05]And so the question then is are they choosing to marry economically older stable men because they love polygamy or is it tied to economic security that if I'm married to this older man even if I'm his fourth or fifth wife I'm going to be taken care of economically and there's a sense of financial security that come with it despite the restrictions of your financial security within that. It makes logical sense for for women in those in those conditions.

[00:18:35]And so it's not a question of how can we stop young girls from accepting to be married a second, third or fourth wife because what is informing those choices, you know? So again like for me the nuance is separating the individual versus the structural and the system and if we don't address the structural and the system even the question of legalizing it whether we should criminalize it or not also doesn't hold weight because then does it address the problems you know that that that that are making it happen in the first place and I completely hear on on excusing how men are choosing to practice polygamy today again that doesn't mean like it was perfect in the past. I just think there were more guard rails that were in place than how we're approaching it today. And that also has layers to it.

[00:19:23]And one of the other dynamics that I'm also seeing on the women's side of of of of polygamy and just saying, you know what, I'm I'm fine with it, it's the the heavy domestic, reproductive, and care labor that comes with marriage as an institution for women. And I'm seeing some even women of my generation who are accepting of their husbands marrying because they're like my life is on hold.

[00:19:49]I am a graduate and I'm not even able to like go and and just you know follow my profession. And I've seen situations where a second wife has been married because the first wife is like, "My god, I need I need some level of freedom because we also come from a community society where men are treated like babies." That a man has to be fed. You have to cook for this man. You know, for him to eat, he cannot feed himself. A woman has to do that. In context where the bathrooms don't have showers, somebody has to physically go get the water, boil it and you know so the labor that comes with marriages for women. I have seen even older women push for their husband to marry just so that labor can be transferred to somebody else you know because it is from that need aspect of it. The redistribution of labor within that context is very problematic. So there are various reasons even where I've seen older women advocate for their husband to marry because that just means this younger wife will take on all of this care burden and responsibility that will allow me to breathe. So they're also looking at it from what will make this easier on my end. You know, I have seen also women that have actively championed their husbands and led the the campaign for their husbands to in in their marriages because there's also like a social status tied to it. We see women who are taking the front row in in welcoming their co-wives and celebrating and even participating in marrying this wife are held to a a different standard.

[00:21:20]You know, socially, you know, they are seen as, you know, this community trophy. You know some of us why can't you be like so and so's wife you know somebody one of my in-laws was telling me I hope you will allow our brother you know because you know there is a social status and and and women also have to navigate the system you know patriarchy as a whole and survive in it. So when I say looking at polygamy in the systemic sense of it, it is saying that unless we address these pieces of it, the go the needs if these needs still hold, polygamy will still exist. Even if you criminalize it, even if you hold individuals accountable within that system because again, you know, making something illegal does not necessarily mean it's a bad thing or does not necessarily mean people are going to stop, you know, practicing it. So I think for me it's really important to structure it in that way and see what does a holistic social transformation that can address it as an issue look like to the point on culture 100%. You know there's like and that's why like sometimes the conversations on this are very stressful and frustrating because it's very reductive in how we have them.

[00:22:28]Oh it's it's it's our culture and feminism is a western concept and they just don't they just want to destroy anything African. You know, I'm like I do recognize the colonial impact of how a lot of our African systems, you know, were seen as backward and need to be fixed and need to be transformed. That holds. But also the concept that African cultures are not meant to evolve is also very colonial in itself you know and sometimes people are not open for these conversations because colonialism also you know turn our norms into customary laws that we now think are static cannot evolve cannot adapt cannot move and that's not how we have historically existed. So even the cultural conversation is very colonial in its sense because what culture doesn't evolve, what culture doesn't adapt, you know, what culture doesn't change. So that's like sometimes also where I really struggle with this conversation because it's very surface level in how we engage with it. It's very individual choice focused when those choices are shaped by larger conditions that until addressed we're not moving anywhere with creating whatever change looks like you know um when it comes to polygamy. So that's what I meant by like the system really looking at it as a social system.

[00:23:44]>> Okay. So can we say then from what I'm gathering uh what two of you are saying there are some people who are really really constrained by this system when we look at polygamy as a system and for example the the the young girls and we're going to call them girls cuz most of them are like 16 17 these are actually girls so they they actually don't choose people can say they choose because the way the system has been structured it's a logical decision that is not even made by them but by the by the family or even if they accept I would say they accept to get married they don't actually choose because there's a monetary issue involved there's a family issue involved so there are people who are actually constrained by this system but there are some people who actually look at this as a system and say huh it is going to work for my benefit >> oh yes >> even if they are not constrained by the system so there are some people who make use of it but there are some people are constrained am I right to characterize it that way >> absolutely Okay.

[00:24:44]All right. Cuz there are some people who are going to say, "Oh, if Alo and Yajwok are saying this is a social system when I get married as third, second wife, I don't have a choice because it's a pressure from my family." So taking advantage of the family. Okay. So then let's come to the larger issue and you've touched on it as a cultural issue and for some people they will say this is a cultural issue. We cannot do anything. We may hate it but it's our culture. Does it make sense? I think this is where the individual choices come in. Um >> mainly I grew up in the west and I'm so individualized right now that the system that Alo is bringing up I don't connect with it because I feel like individuals at this modern days have so much power to make decision based on the progression of their own lives and their families and where they see themsel going moving forward. When we excuse norms that we know are harmful for us right now by saying that as a culture we are refusing we are refusing to grow as a society. We are refusing to grow individually and as families we have to individually make those decisions and says yes this might be a norm. I'm aware of it but it's going to hold me back in my family. Okay. polygamy if we're talking about it not in a system way but as an individual choice even those that find themselves in this system right now in these days they know they not going to go they're not going to move forward very far because it has a lot of constraint to it okay a lot of constraint to it when I think about polygamy I'm thinking about people that are either in the west they live in the cities in Africa they are in Juba they live in these big capitals of our states. I'm not thinking about the people deep in the village, okay? When I'm speaking about it, I'm thinking about people that are modern, using cell phones every day, using gas to cook.

[00:26:44]That's where that's the the population I'm talking to. And these pe people have choices to make regardless of this is a norm and it's a culture. They have individual choices to make and how this going to impact their families. So, that's where I come in and that's where I said it might be a systematic problem.

[00:27:02]It's deep. It's rooted. But you still have a choice to make as a individual.

[00:27:08]Whether you want this for your for yourself, you want your children to grow up in it. What kind of kids do you want to raise? Do you have the means to raise those children that you're going to bring into this world? Cuz I'm pretty sure each woman is not just going to wander in with two children to to because you can't afford to have four or five each. Can you can you economically support that? Can you help that? Can you can you build a calm family dynamic with four different homes? Are they living together? So I am for individual choices and I am for the progress of the society of our society. Because when we say it's a culture, what are we doing? Culture evolve. Culture change. Culture is meant to to to move forward. So are we accepting that we're we're not we're not going to move forward. What is what what are we doing?

[00:28:00]>> Thank you.

[00:28:01]Yeah. No, I think absolutely that's that's the whole point of it that when we recognize it for what it is, then that informs the interventions that we take. And that's why I said like when people say it's our culture, end of story. Sometimes I'm like you just you don't have the intellectual capacity to have this conversation if all you can say it's it's it's our culture, end of story because then you know that's that's not the solution to it. And so obviously right now we are living in a completely different social, economic, political time as a people, you know, and so to still hold this this practice from what it used to be and the conditions under which it worked and try to just apply them to today is madness to say the least. You know, because one practical example I can give is right now we live we're raising a generation of children that are aware about what presence means from their parents, you know, and so I can't imagine a situation where you have maybe three wives and they each have I don't know three children or four children or two children, you know, the number is already up. These are kids that are in school. And this is also the other aspect of it where a lot of the parental excusing comes in where men are completely not still engaged in in in upbringing of their children. So I'm imagining a situation where you have all these children. They are children that are being raised in a time where they are fully aware about what it means to be present in your child's life. And then here you are, you know, saying, "Oh, it's it's just it's I don't have to be in their lives. I just need to give birth to them." You know they need your attention, they need guidance, they need love, they need connection. How practically is that possible given this current context right now? You know if we go to the economic aspect of it you know a lot of the families and individuals who are practicing it are also financially economically strained and taking away the responsibility and a lot of the I know so many polygamous households where it's the women struggling with their children you know to raise them and so the taking away the social responsibility of it you know and placing that burden I think for me it's a question of when we continue to sustain this practice, who is paying the price for it? You know, and until we can answer that question, who is really praying? And the price is not just about the emotional who, you know, whose emotional and and and sexual desires are regulated in this system, you know, who is carrying the emotional labor of raising the children, who is carrying the physical labor of caring for these families? is definitely not the man, you know, and so until we can unpack those dynamics, I don't definitely I don't think there's a reality in this context now where it makes sense for me. You know, we're also seeing a lot of the and this also connects to a lot of social issues. Obviously there's no like data and and and and and statistics pointing out to this but we've also seen the level of corruption in the country because we also have politicians in power that have these large families that they somehow have to sustain and that also connects to a lot of these political issues. So I think there is so many ways that when we think about it in the economic sense of of things in the in the social in the relational in the emotional aspect of it what sense does it make right now is a question that we should be asking and if until people can unpack all of those just saying it is culture it's yes it is a social system there's no question about that but is it a social system that is still serving us as a people right now I think that's a question we should be having and if it's not serving us. What does it what does it then mean? You know, >> does it make sense to see this as sort of utilitarian where people say it's not about the individuals within the family, it's about the collective and if the collective benefits then some people within that collective are sacrificed for the greater good. So that means at the end of the day maybe it's just one individual who benefits but the rest suffer as long as the collective is okay because traditionally marriage wasn't about individuals it was about the family as you explained about having many children about connections it wasn't about romance or things like that but at the end of the day it seems at the back of it it's a man who benefits some so when we talk about the benefit and the problems with polygamy. We don't really look at this. What is the impact on the children? What is the impact on the wives? We don't see it. We only see it from its the collective that benefits. For example, saying the first wife has allowed the second wife to get married. Oh, it's good for her, but it's still going to be seen as good for the husband. So, do we have this utilitarian look at it?

[00:32:56]>> Are the men really benefiting though, or do they just think they benefiting?

[00:33:00]>> Are they or they not? I don't >> see them benefiting from polygamy.

[00:33:04]Um they are so so we know for sure women are not benefiting from polygamy. We know that and children also are not benefiting from polygamy. There's a lot of envies.

[00:33:16]There's a lot of power struggle within the children. There's a lot of feeling neglectful. There's a lot of emotional neglect that they feel. Okay. So obviously children are not benefiting.

[00:33:29]Women's are not benefiting. Even the women that uh are seen as champion for their husbands, I have a hard time to believe that. I personally can go out and champion for my husband to have a second. No matter I I think it's a front for social acceptance like Alo says, I don't truly believe that this is how they truly feel that it makes them happy. Um yes, back then our parents might go and says for the same thing the the the the domestic work was talking about that they might say okay I'm just too tired you know maybe I maybe the mom doesn't have a older girl all boys and says I I need a second wife but that's not these are not the days that we live in we live in days where you can have a maid if you're too tired you we we live in days where kids want their parents to to go to their school events we live In days where kids are verbal about how they feel and wives are talking about uh maybe sex uh lack of sexual satisfaction. We live in days where people are aware of their needs and what they and what they are lacking, you know. Yeah. So, are the men really benefiting? Cuz I'm pretty sure they see all of these things, you know. They see them. if it's if it's a a sexual desire that they need um they can get it from their first wife.

[00:34:52]It's all about just comm communication, you know. So, I I also have a hard time to believe that these men in polygamous relationships are are feeling like they have want something. I feel like they are also restrained by the responsibilities.

[00:35:10]Maybe initially they think they they they doing it for the families, for their ancestors or whoever, but I think they also struggling mentally to maintain these homes, to bring up these childrens, to to fulfill these obligations.

[00:35:26]>> Well, that's I I'll I'll share some of my views, but yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

[00:35:32]No, I think I I'm trying to remember how you phrase it. Whether it's a collective for the collective good um or >> and and that's that's that's the thing because collective good is man, you know, it's a patriarchal view of as long as it feels like it's beneficial to the man, it is collective good. Because what is a society? If we say women or children are paying different prices for this practice, then it's a question of who is seen as a collective good in this context. Because clearly if it's one man versus five wives and maybe 15 children, why does this one become the determinant of what is seen as collective but not the 15 within the same household, for example? So it's to me it's it's it's that that man is seen as the standard of if it feels beneficial to man even if he's one then that is what that is what feels right and makes sense for us as a collective and I think that's that takes us back to the patriarchal gendered power dynamics of polygamy because this is not just a question about can an individual be sexually romantically be attracted to just one person. We're not talking about that. We're talking about the gendered aspect of it because we recognize that maybe yes, you know, an individual can be sexually attracted and desire multiple partners for whatever reasons, but why then does it only apply to men? Because these five wives must be, you know, to this one man. And so your needs, your if it's about human desires, it's a gendered issue because it's not acceptable for wives to also have multiple partners. um if if it's about you know saying you know men need so it does come down to to the gender aspect and the power dynamics of it and obviously men are benefiting from the social status of it like I said you know people say oh you know and that lineage is going forward that is where they are deriving the social status from it you know we've seen men who have you know multiple wives and parade them you know just social media media going wild and just you know calling him so like massaging the masculine ego of that is a true man you know I've seen I saw like there was one picture very random example where there was like four wives and they're all wearing the same outfit and the conversation was just praising the man and you know and I'm you know and so I think yes they might not be benefiting in the emotional materialistic pressures and constraints that come with it but the social pride is absolutely sealed there and it's beneficial to them in that sense that I get to be seen as this guy you know I'm able to do this and so everything else doesn't matter as long as socially this is you know upholding for me and it's giving me status and it's giving me power and also that social status comes with access to authority and leadership and so even what qualifies you to be seen as a leader sometimes these factors come to play so they are social benefits that are also very mythical in in in in in in the sense of them right now, you know, um for them and so I do think there are benefits in those ways even for the women that participate in it. A lot of it is also for the social, you know, recognition, legitimacy and acceptance and pride, you know, that is a feeling as human beings that we cannot always put a price on it, you know, um to be seen as that model wife that is still traditional and are carrying these things. So to your question, the collective good is man in in a simple sense.

[00:39:15]>> I think these are I don't think I can add anything to that to what you both said. I don't think I I can add anything to that. I but what I want to say also is sometimes people would sacrifice things because they want to feel a certain way. Uh in the past there used to be this thing called duel. used to exist in the west and if someone dishonor honors you you go and fight it out and one of you can die just because you've dishonored you know it's just about honor and they used to kill themselves for honor it's the same thing you've seen with in Japan with geisha you know the the beauty standard the way you have to dress and you have to be thin you know you are suffering but you want to feel a certain way you want to be accepted by society so we don't talk about the impact on the woman on the children even on the man because the man is going to suffer emotionally. I don't think the man who is going to marry five wives and he's emotionally peaceful that it's all paradise. I don't think that's possible. So these are things I think we need to to to to talk about. But I agree if it is uh sexual gratification then okay how about a wife? Why why can she do the same thing? Then brings us to what I said about power. Where is power dynamic in this? Cuz it brings us back to power. So, but do you think men realize they actually lose? Do they realize this or do they just sacrifice because I feel good. I'm looked at by society as responsible as I don't know as a leader.

[00:40:47]But do they realize the cost of polygon?

[00:40:49]>> I um I think deep down each individual person in the middle of the night they sits with their own feelings, their own lives and they they meditate and deeply think about their lives. All of us do. I truly believe these men also do the same thing. When the noise is quiet, when there's nobody stroking their egos, they are left with their own feelings. And they looked around and I think they they know they know that this monument experience they bringing their lives is not as they thought it would be. You know, um, a lot of men have lost their first homes and their kids because of of these things.

[00:41:29]And mainly it's because of not doing it properly. You know, the way that our parents used to do it, it's it used to be a family decision and now it's a secret. It's it's it's something that they do behind their first wife back.

[00:41:46]You know, I think they do have that moral compass that eventually tells them that they are doing something wrong or that they could be better. So they might wake up in the morning, go out in the society and you know press on their chest and act all big and stuff but at the end of the day I truly don't think they are happy. [laughter] Um because because they just know it's a lot of responsibilities and and just seeing either your wives not being happy fighting or your children not getting what you know you could you know be able to afford for them because it's just too many or they in different places or they are being spread too thin. they know.

[00:42:26]Um, so that's why I go back to my previous statement that I I also socially they might feel big and they think they winning but individually and in their family setting sitting home I don't think they winning. I think they know that they losing.

[00:42:42]>> Hello.

[00:42:43]>> Thank you.

[00:42:45]>> Definitely pride to be honest. Um and also I think it comes back to the point that you mentioned earlier about just also polygamy becoming a strategy for not taking accountability for anything that if my first marriage is not working and then let me just go marry another wife instead of saying okay what needs to be fixed you know and it just evading accountability and on to the next let me go marry another wife and you know focus on this wife and and show the first wife that you're the problem. All of these things and without thinking about what does that also do for your children in cases where there are children involved and then raising, you know, bringing up bringing, you know, creating an upbringing condition where we're just dealing with so many dysfunctional individuals that are carrying just so much burden, so much trauma, a lot of unprocessed needs that then get reproduced in other ways and in other systems. you know that then feeds into the larger problems. So I think there's a lot there that probably needs to be unpacked. Um and to also besides the social status, what exactly is it for men is a question that you know really genuinely speaking is it sexual satisfaction? Whatever that is, you know that it's you know that it's deeper than that. And I also feel like when we talk about the benefits and whether they know that they're losing or not, again, that's why I'm saying the thing with some of these systemic feelings and and and mythical, I don't even know if mythical is an English word. Like it's just a myth. Like there's no reality to it, but somehow you're made to feel like there is reality to it, you know? Um, and there's benefits in that kind of sense to it. And I think that's where you know this issue really sits right now especially knowing that we're having this conversation in the context of now in the context of today's reality and just the political social and economic context that we're living in right now and what does this practice mean for for us and for you know bringing up healthy families. This is also I also really want us to be very careful to not then romanticize monogamy as the alternative you know cuz this is not the conversation we're having you know it's it's very easy to say oh because so are you then saying because even monogamous relationships are struggling in in in in today's reality and so it's also a it's a conversation of saying we're addressing this issue and the layers and the complex the complexity of it given today's context but also without people then cuz it's always like oh so you're saying this so then this is better I'm like that's not the conversation we're having we're unpacking this as this issue that it is and the layers that it is producing so I think also that that clarity is important to bring out that a lot of the time people say if you say you're anti this then oh you're saying polygamous marriages work and then so I mean monogamous marriages and what about because there is still abuse in monogamous settings there's still violence there is still all of these these other issues, but it's how can we unpack this issue in its totality with all of its layers and complexities and recognizing that the current context we're in invites us to deeply examine that change doesn't happen automatically. You know, people always say, "Oh, it will change with time." No.

[00:46:11]Yes, it will change with time only if we actively work towards addressing it. It doesn't automatically just happen. So people will see something changes 20 years from now and they say oh it change just happened. I'm like no people actually work for this change to happen for this for this this thing to feel different. So what it takes away right now is also us generationally taking responsibility and accountability for the harm it is causing and what is our generational responsibility in examining some of these practices and their benefits you know and what contribution are we making to then how we're building healthier families moving forward as a country that has known nothing but war as a country that is dealing with violence in all shape form context a lot of the dysfunction functionality is still coming back to the family as a unit. And until we have these conversations about what dysfunctionalities are not being addressed at a family level, how do we expect to address intercomunal issues?

[00:47:10]How do we expect to address national issues? You know because the unit itself if it's not functional, if it's not healthy, if it is not stable, if well-being, dignity are not thriving in this, there's no way we can expect all of the systems, the larger systems connected, whether it's all the way to the political layers to be healthy. And so for me it's a question of also connecting this dysfunctionality to the broader social political context that we're in right now as a country and how much longer can we really continue to to to just take this as the norm you know right now. So I think for me it's not just this issue. There's a lot of it and the harm that is the breeding ground for every form of instability we're dealing with right now. Whether it's dysfunctional young men, dysfunctional young women and how that shapes the kinds of adults we're becoming in the larger systems that we're struggling with as a country right now.

[00:48:04]>> Okay. So and and I think what I like here is and I hope they listen to how you are approaching it. There's no any reductive approach to to any issue here where you say don't marry a second wife.

[00:48:16]That's not what is happening here. Is if you marry a second wife or a third wife, do you know what you're getting into? Do you know the impact of it? Do have you thought about all the issues surrounding it before you make that decisions. So those decisions so I think they will listen uh to some of the things you're saying. But I want to go back to the issue of power within the family. Some people would say a polygamous family is working well. You know the kids are working well that is my brother my sister and the co-wives are are are working well you know they have a good relationship the sister wives but who makes it functional really is it the man is the leadership of man the man or is it the kids finding their own ways in that millio because they have no choice they have to get along the wives have been thrust into that relationship they have to make it work so who makes it work here is it the leadership of the man or is it the people themselves finding the way to make it work. Who makes it functional for the good polygamous families?

[00:49:14]>> You know, I'll go back to the the statement that I made earlier. The two observation that I have observed in the last 20 or 30 years about how polygamist is still being played around me was in my circle. Um, one is that it's being used uh as an excuse, you know, that I'm marrying for my brother from I took my dad wife and all these excuses or that I need somebody to cook for my mom, right?

[00:49:38]removing the personal accountability in it. And the second one is using it as uh a blame or discipline, a disciplinary action for the wife because she's either misbehaving or you know why not. any relationship that it started out like that. A polygamous family that find themsself in any of those two scenario or the wife finding out from other people that her husband has a second wife which many women is nowadays is how they find out on social media that their husband has a second wife or even a children across the continent.

[00:50:16]any of those dynamic the power of the the head of the household is already lost which is typically the man right the head of the household is the man it's the leader it's the person that the guidance and direction come from and if you find yourself as a wife if you find yourself in any of those three uh scenario that you discovering from other people that your husband has been married your husband is not taking accountability it's telling you that he's he's being forced or uh he's using it as a mean to discipline you. You already don't have a leader in your home. Okay? So even when that second wife or third wife come home, there's not going to be respect among each other. There's not going to be love.

[00:50:58]There's not going to be support. All of that is already lost from the very beginning. So I don't know a family that defined themselves at the beginning of the polygamous relationship secretly or not understanding why this is happening from the beginning would end up being cordial, respectful, loving and supporting among each other. For families that do support each other that wives are working together, children are playing together and supporting one another. And this is coming from the man. It's coming from the man. is a foundation that he sets from the beginning. It's the direction that he laid out and everybody everybody knows their place and what is expecting of them from the man to the wife to the children. Everybody knows the expectations. Boundaries are set.

[00:51:46]There's clear understanding which who play what role and it's from the husband. If none of that exists, which typically is start from the beginning like I said, then you will not find wives working together or children supporting each other.

[00:52:00]>> Thank you. That's that's why I I I thought I could share my views but you exhaust everything when you both of your response resp >> I think we cannot deny that the central pole in this whole system is the man you know the children the connection the the connecting pillar is the man in in in this and so even the wives that then get to be introduced to each other is through this individual the children that get to be born by the you know and so like I said at the beginning there is no single story to what polygamy ends up playing out like or what it has looked like for for different people and like I said for me it is a system that I have lived within and when I speak I'm speaking from that experience and for my experience it has had two sides to it that there has been a role the man has had to play but there also has been a role that the children have had to navigate myself and my siblings have had to do a lot of work to navigate those dynamics and relationships and what that looks like for us. Some obviously great, some not so great, you know. Um, and so like for example, some of the siblings that I have the strongest connection and relationships with are children from my other mothers for example, you know, and that has taken a lot of effort in just us doing that work, that relational work on our own. I cannot credit my dad for it. Um I've also seen again you know the other layer of just the wives that found themselves in this system or in this household and I've had to do the labor of defining and navigating it for themselves and defining those relationships for themselves you know and so there is a lot of labor that it requires from everybody involved that yes maybe the individual leadership of the man plays a role again you know for my case definitely that wasn't done in a very modalistic way. And sometimes some of these things are very tricky to talk about because society attaches certain, you know, legitimacy and to to to people. And especially for us whose parents are known individuals within the communities sometimes unpacking these dynamics, there's hardly space for those because you're either pro or you know, you're seen as why are you saying this about XY Z? because there's a status attached to to to some of these social issues or families and communities. And so I have also seen, you know, the wives do the labor of defining those relationships for themselves, looking out for each other and just de developing strategies of coping within that system. And so that for me is also, you know, a a credit I cannot give to the man because it's very hard also if the wives are not doing the work themselves for it to function or for it to be seen as a functional um a household where polygamy is functional.

[00:54:57]But that doesn't take away also the role that the man plays in pinning either the children or the wives against each other. And in a lot of the the household, the dysfunctionality also comes from playing some of these things.

[00:55:10]you know, the notion of the favorite wife or the most liked wife or the children from this household that are, you know, it does force everybody to want to gain favor from this individual.

[00:55:22]And so your relationship with this individual then determines how you're seen, how you're treated, you know, what things you have access to. We've seen situations where because this family this the man is more connected to this family and neglectful of this family then even the relationships that the children and the wives have developed you know get to be distorted because of this action for example. So it's a very complex thing to explain and the man definitely is a central pole and does have a lot to play. You can be the perfect and you have you know you can put all of the systems and equality and justice in place. But if also the other piece of it, the other part of the puzzle is not doing the work of establishing those relationships, even this is pointless. But if the children and the wives are doing their work and then the pillar is not doing its work, it doesn't hold. So, it's all of these moving pieces that require navigation and just a lot of work for it to seem healthy. So, when I see people who say, "Oh, I was in a, you know, I'm from a polygamous household and it was great."

[00:56:28]Sometimes I'm like, "What was your position within that system?" You know, were you one of the children from the favorite wives um and had you there was some preferential treatments? Were you on the other side of the the angle?

[00:56:41]Where were you in this position? And [clears throat] also the system has hierarchies you know and so even for the women who take pride in it it's also a question of what's your hierarchy or your position within this hierarchy and from what point of view are you speaking and praising this practice from you know so it also comes down to me to unpacking all of these pieces because it's definitely not uniform for some of us that were in multi- uh multithnic you know setting of it also does come with questions around legitim acy and all of those also have like communial status and legitimacy attached and belonging attached to the children that also creates a layer of dynamics that only the children understand what it's like to be in that situation, you know. So, it's a very it's a very it's a very tricky question.

[00:57:32]>> Okay. So thank you and the way you approach it and this is why I like talking to both of you because uh there's a level of objectivity that many people would not be able to sustain in such a conversation. So so thank you. Uh should it be legislated? Should we have a law governing it like in Rwanda?

[00:57:51]>> I I don't know what is Rwanda law stating >> the polygamy is illegal by law. So you can only marry one wife.

[00:58:00]the but I think there are some circumstances where it's allowed but it's really constrained. It's not like in South Sudan you as you mentioned you you want to punish your wife or you don't like something about her you go and marry another one. No, it's not like that. So it's constraint but it's illegal. So should it be illegal like we have it in the west where you only have to have one wife. If you marry the second wife in Canada it's bigam you go to jail. you know, every almost every society at one point or another, they were polygamous, you know.

[00:58:30]>> Um, so the monogamous is going to come to South Sudan eventually, [clears throat] you know, whether it's going to be our lifetime or our children, our grandchildren, it's going to happen. You can't stop progress, right? You cannot. And now we are living in a capital world, capitalism society.

[00:58:46]Eventually, it will happen. Um, is now the time for it to illegalize it? I'm not sure.

[00:58:55]Okay. I am not sure because like a loyal says earlier, you know, just because you have one wife doesn't mean that there's love, support, understanding, and lack of abuse. People still go in sheets every single day, right? Um I really do think individually we have to think about it.

[00:59:16]Do we have the means for it? Really, I go back to that. Is legalizing it gonna make us all of a sudden better? I don't I I stand in a man and a woman coming together and talking in their own house and deciding whether this is something they want or they do not want in their family and making that decision for themselves and knowing that whatever the result is, they are accepting the consequences of the yes or no to polygamy.

[00:59:45]Um I stand with that. I don't know if we're ready to legalize it, but I don't think our people understand the capacity of still practicing it in these days now. I don't think they understand those consequences. I think a lot of awareness, especially like this conversation, if we talked about um the effect the impact of it right now and we break that down, we talked a lot about it, but there's a lot we haven't discovered. if we talked about those things allowing them to make decision for themselves I think that would be very beneficial you know so to answer your question I'm not sure but I think it's important for each family to sit down and decide are they going to go against the society expectations for them if their grandparent and their mom and dad wants them to have a second wife are they against that and are they going to be okay with that and says this is our decision we don't want to do this it's the wife especially the Because at the end of the day it come down to the wife is she's either going to leave or she's going to find himself in a polygamous relationship and is she okay with those consequence that come with it. You know for me personally I just know if I find myself in a situation where I was not involved from the beginning I will fight it until I die.

[01:00:58]You know include me from the beginning.

[01:01:00]That's it. That's all I ask. Include me from the beginning. Hear my opinion.

[01:01:04]Respect my opinion. And I'm okay with whatever the consequences. But if I find it sideway just to prove a point, I will I will die on it, you know. So, um I don't know. I think we Yeah.

[01:01:18]>> Yeah. I think it comes down to the question the point on power dynamics that you mentioned earlier. And I think when we when we look at polygamy, who has the authority? Who is the decision maker? You know, um and in a lot of these cases, even if women consent, they are not the primary decision makers of of of of you know, whether a man chooses to marry or not. So there's definitely it's largely tied to that that even the the choices women are making are also in the constraints of all of these conditions that are shaping and informing those decisions. I think for me it's a question of if we're criminalizing it, what is the goal? What are we trying to achieve with criminalization of of of of it? And the feminist movement globally has benefited a lot from legal reforms and pushing for for laws and policies and all of these things. And it's they have contributed tremendously to a lot of the feminist wins, [clears throat] you know, um globally legislation, legal reforms and and and and all of these are are still very central in the South Sudin feminist movement. Right now we are fighting for the basic things like the the family law um you know there's like the anti-gender based violence bill that we've been pushing for the last almost 87 years now. Um all of these other bills in between because we also recognize that the law has taken the movement a long way in protecting women's rights. You know the 35% affirmative action is what we're using to like try to push the government even though they don't fully implement it.

[01:02:58]somehow makes them want to act because this exists and we must do the right thing and and the women are going to call us out if we don't include them and and and all of these things. So I do not take away the role of the legal system in pushing for protection and the rights of women especially now in South Sudan given a country that still doesn't even have a constitution in place and and and and all of the work that needs to be done to transform our judiciary system.

[01:03:26]100% acknowledge all of the value for that. But it's a question of will it address the problem? If [clears throat] we criminalize polygamy, who is going to pay the heavier price? Because if we criminalize it today, what happens to the wives that the women that are already in this system? What happens to the women that then and I've se I'm saying that because I've also seen it in other countries where it's treated it's not formally recognized and then a man has a whole illegal family or a secret family to to be to be correct that nobody knows about. He's keeping it away because he's trying to evade looking like he's polygamous. And then the man dies and this wife and these children are left with nothing to their name, you know, because you're not legally married. you're not legally seen as legitimate wife or legitimate children.

[01:04:19]And so I think for me the question of criminalizing it is what is the goal and who will pay the price you know because obviously men will continue to practice it illegally and then who is going to carry that burden. So I think for me that is the the the layer that I think is important to unpack because again sometimes we we think the law solves everything. It doesn't. You know, we have the constitution, we have the the judiciary system, but we still see a lot of the marriages in South Sudan, all of the issues that are considered domestic are still largely being administered by the customary system and laws, you know, and so it's not enough to criminalize it, you know. I I think for me the issues are broader than that. The issues are around dignity. The issues are around protection. the issues are around men feeling the need to like you know expand their lineage and and all of these the quest and drive for this status and so criminalizing it is not going to take those issues away. It's just going to transfer the burden on the wife and maybe the first wife or the legally recognized wife will benefit but it doesn't benefit women as a collective because it will continue to persist. So what does it mean to yes think about the legal aspect but going beyond the legal aspect because that is where the work lies. Yes, some women will benefit but also a lot of women will will suffer if it's criminalized you know and so for me I think it's yes let's have the legal reforms that need to happen but it has to go beyond legal reforms really.

[01:05:52]>> Okay so thank you. We are towards the end. I'll ask you your last word, but I wanted to throw in something that some people may say. In the west, we have what they call polyamory. Some of you may have heard about it, but polyory is way way different from polygamy because poly polygamy is very cultural. It's very institutional. It's very social socially conditioned on people. Polyory is different because people go into it willingly. They can leave it anytime.

[01:06:18]There are no social constraints. You cannot leave a polygamous relationship that way. So there's a lot of social pressure as both of you have mentioned.

[01:06:27]It is more institutional. It's more systemic. So it's not very easy for a woman to just get up and say, "Okay, I'm leaving." There's a lot involved.

[01:06:34]Polyory. No, >> it's very western, very individualistic.

[01:06:38]You can enter, you can leave. So some people tend to conflate the two. Say, "Hey, but we have it here in the west."

[01:06:44]But no, they're they're not the same and the same thing. So what is your last word on this top? Anyone of you can go.

[01:06:52]I I will say my last word. I I think anybody that still desire to be in a polygamist, any man that still desire to be in a polygamous relationships need to deeply understand what they getting themselves into and do it the right way.

[01:07:08]Okay? And the right way is involving the first wife from the beginning and getting that blessing from the first wife. If the first wife say no, then there is a reason why she say no and don't do it because you're going to lose that entire family completely. Are you willing to start over with a new family?

[01:07:26]Because that's what you going to have you're going to have to do is start over with a new family. You know, doing it as it's not illegal. It's kind of illegally because if you're doing it without the permission of your wife, you're doing it illegal. It does not work. It does not work. And you know, I also see it on social media. They says you know the Islamics are they allow to have four wives. Their culture is have very very restrict parameter. Each wife must have their own home. Each wife must have her own income like you have to provide for that wife. You have to be in a status to support these families equally. That's not how we do it in South Sudan. It's almost like it's being practiced by the poorest of the poorest men in our culture right now. men that understand what it takes to raise children, what it takes to to build up a happy family. You don't find them much in a polygamous relationship because that's a responsibility that falls on them and they have to carry that and they want it. They want to make sure their kids go to good schools and they pay for their tuitions and they present in their children lives and they do thing with their wives. They don't have time for a second or third wife. You find the most people that that are still doing this nowadays are the most careless men. Okay? Because it's a lot of responsibility. So if it's a man has the means to have the ability to lead, the the the physical and mental ability, has the the foresight to make sure that his first wife is aware and know and agree and support, I mean, is a healthy family. But anything beside that, it it's going to cross that family. It's going to cost that family.

[01:09:14]I do believe it's going to be legalized eventually. I do believe that. I just don't think it's now for a lot of reasons because we have very basic, very important laws that haven't even been implemented. So, we will get there to illegality of this eventually, but there are very, very important laws that need to be pushed forward at this point.

[01:09:34]>> Thank you. Thank you, Nandra. Loia, your final word. I think my final reflections is that we I think as a people, as a generation, we do have the capacity to have these conversations and to have them in thoughtful ways, to have them in a analytical way, in a compassionate way where we're really willing to listen to how it affects different genders differently. Um, whether that is men and the women involved or the children that are caught in the web of this dynamic. I do think we do have the capacity to have these conversations and we do have what it takes to define the kinds of futures that we want for ourselves and for our children um in the next generation. So I feel like we're evading a lot of that responsibility and that is problematic um because dysfunctional polygamous families of today or in whatever context are going to be a reflective of the next generation you know a reflection of the next generation. So I do think we have the capacity to have these conversations and I also want it to be clear that it's not just about choices, individual choices of marrying multiple wives or romantic and marriage choices. It's really the issue is larger than that and until we're willing to engage with the system and the structures that are enabling it, I don't think we're going to see change any soon. And also I think for men to be very honest on really what are your what are the benefits for for them and and and you know what what are the benefits of of of polygamy as a practice for them and what does that mean at what cost you know and and and and if we're looking at it from also the compassionate lens of it you know what is the impact of it on the other side.

[01:11:22]So I think my last reflection is that we do have what it takes to have these conversations and really think critically about what is the future that we want to define for ourselves. It's not about either or situation. It's really unpacking it because again it's different people have different experiences of it but I do think honest conversations about it are really important at this point.

[01:11:46]>> I just wanted to thank you both. Uh I think this is just the beginning and as Nad said there's a lot we haven't talked about but I think we'll have more conversations like this we don't have them and many of our young men are going back home to get married and as you said the wives get the information on the social media they don't they don't say I remember when I was in in South Sudan when my dad wanted to marry I think the third wife and we I I was the my older brother was went there uh it was actually my half brother he was in other part of Sudan and we went uh to the I don't know what do they call in language where you you go and talk to the girl so I was there with the men I was there I was like the older like the the son of the man who's getting married I didn't quite understand the issues we are talking about here in terms of gender dynamic my mother was there in the meeting where we were deciding who is the girl so she was in the meeting everyone was there it was in the open.

[01:12:48]But I I had a sense I was asking myself even there as a teenager does she really really is she really excited about this herself because I could see her she contributes she's okay she was one of the people who suggested the girl but in my head I was like does she really really believe this is something also good for her but I was a kid I didn't know I didn't know much so now I can reflect on them so going back to what you were saying there was a way it was done in the past it was in the open if the first wife says no it It was difficult. It was difficult for the man to go ahead. Although she could still be conditioned. They send the uncles and and force her to accept or not accept but go with it.

[01:13:28]>> They will coersse you into that choice.

[01:13:30]>> Yes. But it was also in the open today.

[01:13:32]No, it is different. But it doesn't make it any any any better. So I want to thank you. We'll uh have other conversations on the same topic and also on child marriages. We haven't touched on that. It's an it's also some sort of a an extension of polygamy but it's a different conversation. So I want to thank you for your time >> and I was telling I'll call you also on political issues not just gendered issues. So not just polit gendered issues if there are issues political issues then I'll call you uh to comment on on these things in a panel or individual.