#179 DOPOCENA LIVE | MANUELA MACELLONI | ROBERTO MARCHESINI | STRAPPI: RELAZIONI POST UMANE

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[00:00:01][music] [music] [music] Hello, good evening everyone.

[00:00:21]Hi Micki, good evening, welcome back.

[00:00:24]Hi Anna, welcome everyone, welcome back to Dopocena Live and tonight is a somewhat special evening, probably a little different from the others.

[00:00:37]It's a pleasure to have you with us again. If you want, write us a comment now so we can say hello. Someone has already written Anna and our faithful Marcello from Genoa, from the Montecontessa dog kennel, then we also have Gianluca, we look forward to your comments in the chat because it will be a truly different evening from the others. Now in a moment we'll explain to you why. Please let us know if everything looks correct on YouTube. Someone from YouTube has already written to us. Are you on Facebook? Let us know, perhaps with an interaction, a like, or a comment, so we can rest assured that everything is working and we can get our evening started.

[00:01:26]Well, Anna, tonight we're live in the company of Manuela Macelloni and Roberto Marchesini, who have already been our guests in previous episodes, in previous editions, for live broadcasts that were truly beautiful, the presentation of their books also in previous editions for two beautiful episodes, especially the one from 2023, we emphasize this so you can go and look for it, and entitled The Dimensions of Relationships.

[00:01:55]and also the one from 2024 that Anna and I truly loved from the moment we thought of it, which was entitled The Concertation, because it is something that struck us already in training when we were in Siwa, right at Roberto Marchesini's school and we couldn't help but ask him for the concertation together with Manuela Macelloni. So these are two of the episodes, of the many episodes of the live after-dinner, but we invite you to go and look for them where we will now also send you the banner. on the YouTube channel because, as we always say with Anna, eh it's very eh let's say positive Facebook in the fact that it leaves the live broadcasts available for only 30 days, so if you want to watch it immediately after you have 30 days available on our Facebook pages, otherwise as we always say with Anna you can go to our YouTube channel where there is a huge dog library And tonight we are at the live broadcast probably the 180th, at 179 Anna, we went. Exact. Crazy.

[00:03:02]Crazy. And by the way, it's May now, Annina, it's more or less our anniversary because we're celebrating 6 years.

[00:03:09]Oh, yes, true.

[00:03:11]6 years later 6 years later there is a live I think. Yes, yes, because it's 2020, so yes, it's been a long, long time, it doesn't seem real. We've come a long, long way together with you, with us, with all of you together.

[00:03:24]Exact. Exact. Thank you, thank you everyone. Very good. So, um, Anna and Professor Marchesini, tonight we have Manuela who is one of our dearest guests and we also have our professor. Yes, in fact Micki, in the previous editions, let's say, we presented some of the publications of Professor Roberto Marchesini, in particular The Roots of Desire, for example. Let's remember that Professor Marchesini is the author of numerous books, manuals, and articles on various subjects, ranging from ethology to philosophy, and certainly to dog breeding, and we'll also see other new developments with him this evening. And for us it is a great honor to have Roberto Marchesini back, who is the father of zoanthropology and the cognitive zoanthropological approach, which is the common thread of our entire After Dinner Live project. So he is a very, very special presence for us, and we are delighted to have him back tonight, along with another great friend of ours, Manuela Macelloni, who we will be delighted to have here with him again. So their pairing of the two of them together is really nice for us, you know, to have them.

[00:04:35]Exact. And tonight, then, as Anna also introduced with our guests, I would say Anna, for a rather special evening, as you said, because we are touching on a topic that really goes a bit outside the usual boundaries, as you said, we also talk about dog lovers, but we talk about humanism, we talk about philosophy. There's also a beautiful book that we presented here by Manuela and that talked about philosophy linked to dog breeding for those who are still unfamiliar with this field and so we will also discover what the profound connection is between what we will talk about tonight and dogs, so together with Manuela and Roberto and we will see this link, this connection.

[00:05:22]Yes, in fact we are moving a little, but not too much from what we usually talk about, because it is a topic that always concerns us very closely, even the way we relate to our dogs starts precisely from this book, right? Mii and tonight, in fact, we're doing it starting, as Anna says, from a book called Strappi. Strappi is an absolutely intense text that questions many certainties and truly raises so many questions. Yes, we will talk about a book that is not one of those books that you just read, but that really sticks with you, that you have to read, you have to reflect, you know, on this, on what is the great content that Manuele leaves us in this book. In fact, the title itself, strappi, is powerful, something that lets us understand that we're talking about something that breaks, that bursts into reality, that changes. So beautiful.

[00:06:18]Yes, it's about identity, the body, relationships, and Manuela's experience is truly profound and conveyed through this book. Um, and also the way we think about ourselves as human beings is really being called into question. Yes, there is so much value. In fact, the thread that will run through this evening is precisely this: what's happening? when these boundaries begin to tear, that is, what changes in our way of seeing the other human and non-human also obviously and we will do it, as we have already anticipated from the beginning, with two guests who have been working together on these themes for a long time, so in addition to having Roberto Marchesini, Manuela Macelloni, authors of many books, two very dear people, but who are they between them, what collaboration is there between them?

[00:07:12]Then we'll also ask them about a project they're currently working on together. They have been working together for a long time with a truly deep and coherent collaboration.

[00:07:25]I think it's Anna who's stuck.

[00:07:28]Let's see Anna's connection. Okay, so now let's see if Anna is still connected. In any case, Roberto and Manuela's collaboration has been built over the years and has produced truly important reflections on the theme of relationships and posthumanism.

[00:07:45]We'll have a chance to talk about it with them, so get ready, because it'll be an evening that might be a little different than usual, but still packed with information, especially from your questions.

[00:07:56]So now I'm also saying on behalf of Anna who probably got stuck, in fact she'll be reconnecting now and I'll continue to say hello to the people who initially connected.

[00:08:07]Great, thank you, you've answered our call, you're giving us feedback, and so everything is working fine. This is important because it is an evening that we truly want to last and be enjoyed by everyone without interruptions.

[00:08:22]So Marcello, then we say hello to Francesca, then we have Virna, Virna too. Good evening Marina. Here it is.

[00:08:31]Orestes, good evening to you too. Cris Priscilla. Laura, here she is too, Laura is always with us. Fabio, Viola, Anna, Silvia and Patrizia. Very good. In the meantime Anna has also returned. Here it is.

[00:08:47]The line played a trick on us. The line, look at the wind today. Crazy.

[00:08:51]Let's hope you don't bother me too much with these things of mine. No, no, we're on the ball, we even have snow, we've been through a bit of everything, so let's say we'll make it. Very good. So, while you start writing us your comments anyway, because I was saying Anna also on your behalf that as always we look forward to comments during the evening, the questions I want to ask our guests. Eh, let's keep sending greetings too. Hi Gianantonio, thanks for writing in chat and in the meantime, I think we can also give a little reminder.

[00:09:31]We want to point out an in- person event that we're particularly interested in: Michele Minunno's here in Cagliari on June 13-1 for a seminar, a practical internship in the field entitled Predatory Behavior under Stress. There are still some places available for auditors. So, if you want to, especially with Anna, we always say this because, luckily, Anna will be able to be there this year.

[00:09:58]If you want to come and also take a little vacation time, June is the best month to come to Sardinia together with September. So, if you want, we 're here. There are still places available, so this is the information on this internship. You can also find the poster and useful information on the website or on the vieniome.dog page.

[00:10:22]Great, Anna, so I'd say that after we've given this practical information, we can send the theme song because our guests are also connecting. We are absolutely waiting for them. Go with the acronym. Go with the acronym. [music] He.

[00:10:55][music] [music] [music] [music] Great Anna, here it is.

[00:11:41]We also posted two photos of cats in Roberto's honor because we know Yes, there's never a shortage of them as much as how much he loves them. We know how much he loves them. And now I'd say we can very happily welcome Manuela Macelloni back to the after-dinner Live event. Hello Manu.

[00:11:58]Good evening everyone. Thank you for your hospitality. Always wonderful to be here with you. Thank you. Hello Manu.

[00:12:04]Thank you.

[00:12:04]Hi Roberto.

[00:12:06]Hi Michel. Hi Anna. Hi Manuela.

[00:12:09]Welcome back. Welcome back.

[00:12:11]What a pleasure. On behalf of everyone, thank you for your availability for this evening, which was so important to us.

[00:12:18]We've now made an appointment with you to talk about beautiful things, books, work, and projects. So, if you agree, I'll now take a moment to introduce you, even though neither Roberto nor Emanuela really need any introductions, but it's still a pleasure, as always, to introduce them this evening. So Roberto, let me introduce you. Roberto Marchesini is a philosopher and ethologist. He has always been committed to studying the relationship between human beings and animal and technological otherness.

[00:12:56]Um, let's say he's the director, he's very well known, but we repeat, anyway, director of the Center for the Study of Posthumanist Philosophy, founder and director of the SIUA, which is also the middle school of the school of human-animal interaction and is the director of the journal Animal Studies, which is a journal of zoanthropology, he is the founder of zoanthropology, he is one of the main international points of reference for the cognitive zoanthropological approach which is also the common thread of the entire project that Anna and I have carried out over these 6 years and which has introduced a profound change in the way of thinking and experiencing the relationship with the dog in Italy, but also the relationship with the cat, because tonight I have a piece of news. Author of numerous innumerable publications in both the ethological and philosophical fields, he continues to contribute significantly to the development of posthumanist thought. I apologize because earlier I probably got a little emotional and I mentioned animal and, let's say, ethological alterities. I was a little confused. I give the floor to Anna to introduce Manuela Macelloni.

[00:14:15]Yes, look, thanks Michi, I have the honor of introducing Manuela who is a friend of ours, she has already been here with us and we are really happy to have you here.

[00:14:24]Manuela is a philosopher, dog relationship consultant, coordinator of the Center for Posthumanist Philosophy Studies, and editorial director of Animal Studies. We already had the pleasure of presenting his text The Philosophy of the Dog, Footprints for a Post-Amonic Future, in February 2023.

[00:14:43]And Manuela is also the author of the books, precisely, the book Strappi which she will talk about tonight, which will be the starting point of this evening's dialogue with Professor Marchesini and of post- humanism, a guide to thinking about the future. Both works intertwine philosophical reflection with experience and a perspective on relationships, which will accompany us in this evening's discussion with them.

[00:15:07]Here you are.

[00:15:09]Well, first of all I would say that we are honored to have received the books and therefore we and Anna, because touching a book is one thing, being able to leaf through it is something completely different and a unique emotion and above all this, as Anna said, is not a book to be simply read. And this is the other one.

[00:15:29]Thank you for the wonderful gift.

[00:15:31]The minimum is guaranteed, and above all this: that is, they are books to read, to reread, and that stay with you, like The Philosophy of the Dog. They are incredible books that tell a lot about a profound experience. I won't add anything else because the questions this evening will help us understand this better.

[00:15:56]You must read it. Exact. You absolutely must. But before we move on and begin, we'd like to tell you about two other works. One is a job and the other is a project. We care deeply about them because, in particular, wait, there's this one, which is truly amazing: the latest work Professor Roberto Marchesini is working on. Roberto, we'd like to ask you a word about it because it's truly a new work, something truly new, but this isn't a book. This is a manual. It is a manual, an immense 600- page work that is an operational tool.

[00:16:40]Um, Roberto, do you want to tell us something?

[00:16:44]Yes, it was, let's say, a big commitment, but a commitment I took on because nowadays cats increasingly live in difficult conditions, because while once they could go out, well, in rural life cats were free, then they came into the house, but then, well, the door was always open and they spent most of their time, well, in a life that was ethologically much more consistent with their needs. Today, cats live indoors 24 hours a day, especially in cities. In large cities, it's very difficult for them to go out. Furthermore, today, and on the other side, there are people who are increasingly less capable of understanding these needs. Cohabitation, obviously, as in all cohabitations, requires greater knowledge. Therefore, for years, we have been training people in this field, such as dog trainers, who are actually dog ​​relationship consultants, that is, they are also trainers, but very often they educate people on a proper relationship with their dogs.

[00:17:57]Thus, Lazione Felina's consultancy is a professional whose goal is to help people build a deeper relationship with their cats and ensure that, ultimately, their homes are also suited to their needs. So, let's say, this is the training manual.

[00:18:19]So all the people who are interested in learning more in some way, I mean even dog trainers, very often find themselves going into people's homes. There is the dog, but there is also the cat. Today this situation is more and more, so knowing more about the motivations, the emotions, how to build, how to organize the house to improve his life, in short it was a job that really took me a lot and it took me months and months and months of work, day and night, so I'm very tired, but ultimately I did it because I strongly believe that this was something that had to be done, that I absolutely had to fill this space and so I'm very happy with how it turned out. It really is a book that goes from general well-being to aggression and all the types of aggression that you look at are very different in cats than in dogs. I mean, very often I find that a sort of translation is done, right? You take the ethology of the dog or the aggressions of the dog and you relate them to the cat and this is a mistake, that is, the aggressive behaviors are completely different, they have other characteristics, so let's say it's a manual, as I say, 600 pages but they cover absolutely everything. I also wanted to start making reservations to see how interested people were. In short, this is a volume that, as you can well understand, precisely because of the effort made, because I put all my research into it and because it is 600 pages, the volume costs €70, but we have made the pre-order, so the first 100 people who make the pre-order and therefore here we have, you see, the pre-order link, can pay €50, so €20. €20 off today, which isn't bad, after all. Here, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this work that I really care about because it was the last great effort and he's already asking me about others obviously saying "But you write a lot, but there are so many people who write to me, but you should write about this, we need this". Oh, including Emanuela, because Emanuela is also someone who sometimes, you know? He calls and says, "But why don't you do this?"

[00:21:01]Your muse inspires you. His muse. No, the opposite. Massimo, who are more employers than mus. I call them employers or pains in the ass. [laughter] Sopran Anyway Stappi is a beautiful book. It's a beautiful book. I just want to say one thing about this book, and then I'll explain it better later.

[00:21:29]Here we are faced with our relationship with our body and the relationship with the bodies of others and all these relationships that are conjugations, but sometimes also separations. Well, my latest article that I'm doing, which I'll publish in English, is a book about animal mourning. That is, not mourning the death of animals, but how an animal experiences the suffering of someone's death. A cat towards another cat, a cat towards a dog. I could see the suffering of a pig towards a rooster. They were always together.

[00:22:11]And so I have to say that mourning is not something that concerns us exclusively, but that concerns at least all animals that receive parental care, who therefore have that process, no, of bonding with the parent that is the archetype of every bond and so when a friendship is created, basically always in friendships, in bonds we return a little to childhood and when you come to lose that, let's say, your reference point it's like going into separation anxiety, like going into a depression, an infinite sadness that is not easy to overcome and not just for us. How many times have I seen animals dying, dogs, cats dying from the loss of their companion. And this, so tears, tears, we return to this dimension because relationships, relationships are also sometimes obviously precisely because there is an encounter, there are also moments in which you separate and there is all the suffering linked to this. Manuela's book is in some ways a sort of great stream of consciousness, because this is the book, a book of a stream of consciousness where she talks precisely about separation and the sadness in separation, but also about the remedies and awareness that we can gain through separation.

[00:23:43]This contribution from Roberto is beautiful, so how better to start talking about it? I really like the idea of ​​conscience [laughter] Yulisis, that Roberto, I and you said, you are 10 people in the world. [laughter] Beautiful Roberto, if you agree, before going any further, we wanted to ask you and Anna about a wonderful project you're working on called the International Master on Play, so the art of playing with your dog.

[00:24:17]Well, it's too beautiful a project not to mention a few words. Naturama will take place this evening, from May to December 2026, in Bologna, at the headquarters of Sigua. Registration is open and we're working with a wonderful team and many professionals we know, who were also here at the live after-dinner event, along with many Thomases and many other very talented, very capable people. Then from all over the world because Anna Lil Quam, Teo Mariscale, in short it's all in the direction of talking about play because play is an important thing, because play is not just fun, it is certainly fun, but play is well-being, play is relationship and we will demonstrate the activities in water with Jessica Alberghini, we will do Play is therapy, that's how anyone who works with dog training, from the educator to the dog trainer etc., must have a playroom in mind, that is, they must have an image and know how to use play as an important opportunity to promote education processes, promote learning processes, promote behavioral rehabilitation processes.

[00:25:35]Well, the game is a kind of existential, right? like the possibility of interrupting time for a moment, the time of the clock, of entering a dimension that has a different dimension, which is a dimension that captures us, in which we are not wasting time, but we are in time, that is, in which we truly possess reality ourselves, even while perhaps playing at being something else or someone else.

[00:26:03]So I definitely think this is an innovative work because, beyond the philosophical question that I found in the game, the game also has a huge learning function both in the adult dog, because it's not that the adult dog can no longer learn, and in the puppy dog ​​and learn in a positive way, learn in a beautiful way. Okay? And so in a work always of concertation that we talked about before, right? If there is no coordination, there is no fun for the dog, because the dog is a social animal, it is not an animal that has a pyramidal vision of who is above and who is below, it is an animal that instead wants to work together, be together.

[00:26:55]It's therefore very important to understand that today, more than ever, it's important to do activities with your dog that are obviously in line with their characteristics. Then it depends a lot on the dogs, for example the wilder dogs, the street dogs, that is, they do more than play, for example they engage you in searching, they take you to see places, that is, if you leave them free there is a different way of interacting. Then there are dogs who really love certain types of games, chasing them as a predatory act. Then also the way in which to decline a game so that it does not lead to frustration in the dog, but instead brings him to a state of well-being, precisely as the professor said. So I believe that this seminar is truly, um, almost a necessary continuation for anyone who has done a journey in Siwa. I mean, it's a bit, let's say, it's a way to not only complete, but to actually get to the heart of the matter in some way, that is, to tie everything together. So it would be a real shame not to take advantage of this opportunity. Indeed, indeed Manuela [clearing throat] you're right, that is, learning truly becomes learning through experience. You can't teach someone something and then not give them the opportunity to make it their own, to use it. Well, the greatness of the game is precisely this, this temporal dimension that opens up, that opens up an experience of the subject and therefore it is clear that you do not forget the games, you do not forget the things you learn during the game, the qualities you develop, that you exercise during the game become your sticks, those that support you. But play must be a game, not a gambling addiction, which unfortunately I see often, that is, I often see people who think they are letting their dog play, but who in reality have transformed him into a ball obsessed and who therefore in play shows all that anxious dimension that instead I would rather not see because play, play must also be challenging, it must also be strong, but not fixed. So, um, absolutely, a great time, a great time to go and dig into these topics because I think they're very important.

[00:29:24]Here, thank you for being able to talk together, here, to make it known, even if this event certainly already has a lot of visibility, but it could have been our small contribution also to No, thank you, truly thank you.

[00:29:40]I mean, I'd like to say how important the relationship is, the game for the relationship, I mean it doesn't seem like that, but even in humans, I mean, there was a psychologist who was speaking the other day and said that he explained that the father had fixed the bicycle with his son and that the next day the son asks him "Let's go fix the bicycle". The father says, "No, but the bike has already been fixed." I mean, it makes no sense to fix it, but it was precisely that moment, that experience, that instant that created that bond, that moment of truly feeling good with someone, of learning to relate to someone, and this is... well, in my opinion, this truly surpasses all that dog-loving thing that we still carry around with us, which instead has many traces of gentleness, of perception. And well, I was actually lucky enough to talk about it right from the start with the professor when he conceived this seminar, this master's degree, because it's actually a master's degree, and so I really push for it because it's a project I believe in very much, even though I'm not a person who plays a lot, but when we had the presentation day, Thomas let me play, I had fun, like discovering that I'm an extremely competitive dog. When I lost, I fell to the ground.

[00:31:04][laughter] amused.

[00:31:05]Yes, yes, yes.

[00:31:06]Good, good.

[00:31:07]Thank you for giving us the opportunity to share this news after dinner, because the after-dinner live event is certainly a space for information, but it also presents exciting projects and exciting new developments.

[00:31:18]Beyond the topics that Anna and I might select, that we fall in love with, it's nice to give space to beautiful projects. So, thank you, both for Roberto's manual, which is immense, and this equally beautiful project. A thousand thanks.

[00:31:38]If you're okay with it, I'd like to start with a few questions that Anna and I want to ask both Manuela and Roberto about this, Manuela's work, and the Strap book in particular. Then we'll ask everyone online if they'd like to chat. Then, as soon as we have a moment, we'll send your comments and questions. So Manu, I would start with you by asking what these three tears are that you talk about in the text.

[00:32:09]So, the text has a subtitle which for me is fundamental to understanding that it is dogs. So we talk about dogs, we talk about the heart, but this heart is written with a Q, it is not written with a C and it is not a spelling mistake, it is deliberately written with a Q and body. So let's say these are three elements I had to reflect on, in the sense that everyone in life happens at a certain point, no, to be torn apart, an event happens whereby we never go back to the way we were before, whereby the sun is no longer as bright as it was before, whereby the food doesn't have the same flavor, whereby the sea is no longer as beautiful as it was before, that is, and we find ourselves structurally changed, modified.

[00:32:55]And these are three precise tears, essentially. The first is the tear of death, eh, in which I deal with the theme, precisely, of the last look. For me, the gaze is, even if it is not, let's say, the fundamental perceptive organ in the dog, but it is a moment of profound connection with the dog, that is, I am lucky enough to have this dog who is wonderful, that we go on these long walks now that for me have become very long, for him they are short, for [laughter] me they are infinite and every now and then I see him giving me this look that is truly a look of connection, of er collaboration, of just being together, that is, of not being, that is, one minding his own business and the other looking at his phone. So I strongly encourage you to try walking with your dog in some free-roaming situations and seek out this gaze. But the point is when the last look comes, that look that will no longer be possible because that person is dead, that person who for me all dogs are people in every way, that person will no longer be able to look at you and so the question is to ask yourself what remains of me without that look because when a part of you dies with a person, a part of you goes away with them.

[00:34:22]That world you lived together is no longer a world that exists, a world that disappears and fades into non-being. And non- being, however, is not nothing. And this is one of the things I really want to push for. And how I really want to believe, how I am convinced that a loss is never overcome. We are our mourning.

[00:34:44]We are made of our non-beings, we are made of our tears, they cannot be overcome. We continue to experience the tears, we continue to rework them, we continue to rethink them, we continue to restructure them within ourselves, and the tears can also be great forms of teaching. So I, going a little against the, let's say, Freidian vision that considers mourning as a necessity to be overcome, that is, we must find a way to overcome mourning at all costs, instead in my opinion, mourning must not be overcome, it is not absurd, that is, forgetting, that is, how can you forget someone who loved you? That is, love remains, that is, the void does not remain, that is, love remains, that is, it remains at the beginning, that is, this sense of emptiness, this very meaninglessness of life, this general and widespread ugliness.

[00:35:32]Um, but this non-being remains alive inside you. That is, I will no longer be the person I was for Aunt Winky, I will no longer be the person I was for Emma, but I was that person and so I see in the concept of death a thing, a concept that I have already explained previously which is this concept of memory of the future, that is, those who die, Sartre tells us that those who die fall into our arms and so I believe that the word of mourning is restitution and this is because we have the duty to give back what has been given to us by these people who may not be human and perhaps fortunately they are not human, but who have given us so much, who have taught us, who have supported us, who have been by our side in a silent way, but not silently, okay? That is, they didn't utter a word, but they said much more, perhaps more appropriately, than other human beings.

[00:36:36]So, um, what it was for me, losing Emma was, I think, the most traumatic thing that's happened to me in my life, because Emma died healthy as a fiddle on a walk at 9 years old and before she died she had started doing these pee-pees. For those who have read The Philosophy of the Dog, you know that Winky also did these pees just before she died. So Emma had told me she was dying, she had actually told me. The day we went for a walk, even though things had gone well, I told him, "Oh, you dog is about to die, let's go for a walk because I'm an idiot."

[00:37:09]And it was a crazy scene because I remember a moment when I lay down on the floor and she looked me straight in the eyes. I still have those eyes inside me, I mean, I have them here, I will never forget them. That look that perhaps for me was the last look, the last look she truly managed to give me. And then nothing, he came to bring me a stick. I left it with her, she sat down, looked at me, collapsed to the ground and died, without any explanation.

[00:37:43]And in the same period I had this other tear, this worsening of the problem I had with my heart. I've always had a heart condition and after Emma's death my heart really tore out, it tore into a thousand pieces and in fact it's a word I don't use anymore, my heart is ripping out, my heart is breaking. This is why it scares me, because I used it, it broke my heart, it scares me because hearts really do break. That is, we think it's just a metaphor, but it 's not a metaphor. Hearts break when they suffer, and my heart really broke that day because it was a decline, that is, it was something that in the space of 6 months led me to have, at most, another 6 months to live.

[00:38:27]I mean, so it was a really serious thing. But the question that kept haunting me, that is, wasn't there but when everyone tells you you have to get a transplant it's a powerful thing, that is, you have to think about losing your heart and welcoming the heart of another person. I mean, I was already very post-humanist because I also had a defibrillator, so I also had technology inside me, I mean, I had my heart, but technology inhabited me, I was already inhabited by the other.

[00:38:56]But it is different to be inhabited by another technological being, to be inhabited by another human being, believe me, it is profoundly different. And what I understood, and it was the day of the last presentation I gave, that I managed to give on the philosophy of the dog, because then I started to feel very bad, I'm not a girl, he asked me "But in the end, did you understand why Emma died?" In the meantime, I had adopted Ettore on January 18th. I see this photo of this dog on Facebook and I see it because I am woken up by footsteps that I think are Emma's footsteps. The unknown cell phone taker. I don't know what the hell I do, I don't know why I go on Facebook, and then I tell you, I almost never go, I mean, it's not that I'm a Facebook addict and I see the face of this dog who wasn't asking for help, wasn't asking for mercy, he had lost hope anyway, I mean, he had more of a look on his face like he was saying "But life for me is like this anymore". I mean, life is this stuff. I don't know how Red Peter from Kafka's story, if you happened to read it, it's a parallel that could somehow be there, perhaps.

[00:40:00]And it was when this girl asked me if I had understood, in that moment I swear I had a kind of illumination that came from above, that is, not a stream of consciousness, but a state of consciousness, a moment of being, you know, a moment of being, I am precisely remaining in the wake of English literature in which I understood why Emma died. Emma died to teach me how to lose, because I had to learn how to lose, because the most painful thing for me in the transplant wasn't so much receiving someone else's heart, but having to think that my heart would die before me. A part of me died before me. And that ties everything together a bit, right? parts of us that are outside of us that die before us. Parts within us that are within us but die before us. And what remains inside us? What is left for us? We are made of life, we are made of death. I in particular am alive because there is someone dead inside me who makes me alive.

[00:41:07]And this then led to a reflection on the body and therefore it has a need to dialogue with my body, that is, to dialogue with this heart, this heart that was not mine and that still is not mine and that had its own desires, had its own life, had its own neuronal cells capable of thinking.

[00:41:27]Soa says: "If the heart could think it would stop beating." This is a phrase that my heart surgeon really liked. I didn't tell him, he said, "I'm happy that the heart doesn't think." Actually, in my opinion, the heart thinks because the heart is made of muscle tissue, but it is also made of neurons, it is also made of brain cells, so there are current theories that believe it is not the brain that sends emotions to the heart, but the heart that sends emotions to the brain, but we always think in a modular way. I prefer to think of the organism as a whole, that is, my liver also thinks, my pancreas also thinks, that is, we say we are, we tell ourselves that we are made up of all the relationships that exist within our body. Of course, you can't take for granted that you're relating to a heart that isn't yours and that your body is trying hard to expel, because you have to take doses of anti-discharge medication all your life, obviously. But I understood something that I had to talk to this heart because I spent three days in a coma and it was really funny, I mean, waking up was super ironic because I woke up with this stuff in my head, a mask in my head. I was, well, still intubated, I had a thing holding my thing, I mean, I woke up, I wanted to, [ __ ] off this thing, this mask, off my head, what the hell. In the meantime, I still remained dumb because three days of com make your whole life dumb.

[00:42:54]Um, anyway, okay, and that's the point. The point was that I understood that the only way I had to, since the first thing this heart transmitted to me was a lot of fear. I was terrified, but it wasn't a terror I knew, it was a terror that was foreign to me and I had to start talking to him and say, "Hi, nice to meet you, I'm Manuela, who are you? What do you want? What do you desire?"

[00:43:22]He started telling him about me, about my life, and I told him, "I promise we'll be happy. I promise we'll do beautiful things. Don't leave me, stay with me, stay with me, stay inside me and teach me, guide me, make me understand who you are."

[00:43:41]And from here, for me, a reflection on the body was born, which is precisely this vision according to which the body is not something we possess, eh, but precisely because even in the light of posthumanist philosophy, no, which teaches us that we possess nothing, we don't possess the universe, we don't possess other animals, in my opinion we do n't even possess the body. The body is a gift given to us, it is something we are born into, moreover we do not choose our body, because if I had been able to choose I certainly would not have chosen to be born into this body. I would have definitely chosen to be born into a healthy, handsome, and well-endowed body, [laughter] perhaps with a beard if I could choose. Well, then that's how it went. Um, and so in my opinion the first relationship, the primary relationship that we have is with our body. Okay? And so this made me reflect on the fact that between us and the body this relationship is born which must be positive and therefore a new vision of the body and a new vision of self-care which is no longer performance, right? Performing, caring, and incorporating soundness. Yes, up to a certain point, because the body makes decisions that sometimes you don't want it to make, that is, it decided, that is, I didn't decide what happened and I was only able to experience what was happening together with it. And so it is not a vision of Cartesian split, mine is a vision of cohabitation, of co- existence together. The body is a posture that life can take, but life can take a thousand other postures. That is, life can take the posture of the body of a human person, of a dog person, of a tree person. I can't say person to the tree because I 'm not able to yet, honestly. too ignorant, but in reality even trees have their own dignity, we are still a little behind in reality on this thing of the person as a stone, I don't know, of the stone, that is, of the cloud, of the air and therefore I think that the body is a posture, a very large sensory organ that we must enjoy, that is, ours, that is, I write that philosophers have searched for years for the meaning of life by looking for a ghost inside a room that wasn't there because the meaning is all in the body, it's all in our bodily posture of life, of living life. And so at the end of the book I say yes, my heart surgeon straightens lives by putting sternums in place, tearing out hearts, pulling them out. As a writer, despite the fact that so much has already been written, what I would like to give, even if this is a much more personal book than others, is just as Roberto says, right? At a certain point, writing it becomes a gift, a giving of oneself.

[00:46:42]And what I would like to donate is precisely this very strong experience which is the beauty of inhabiting a body and the duty of living it to the fullest, of enjoying all the pleasures, of enjoying the very essence of it—that is, of abandoning this vision of the desire for the body as a form of sin, as a form of limitation. A body limits your intellectual capacity, right? The body, on the other hand, sensoriality enhances my ability to know or to know in this world, as Sers, Michelle S. would say. And therefore, just as we know with the world, for me we also know with our body.

[00:47:27]So these are three crucial moments in the book, let's say, where I talk about Emma's death and how to try to keep this pain inside us and make it bear fruit in this sense of gratitude and in this giving of oneself to the other, because I'm convinced that Ettor was everything I didn't want. I didn't want a male dog, I didn't want a hunting dog, I didn't want it, I didn't want it, but it was Emma who brought me to Ettor, it was Emma who explained to me how to touch a dog who was afraid of everything, of anything. So these people who we think are no longer close to us are actually inside us, we have parts of them inside us and that's why we have the duty to give back what we have been taught and what I managed to do with Ettere, of which I am particularly proud, but not because I am a genius, but because I was guided by Wink's story and especially by Emma's story, is to have managed to give Ettere a tranquility that she didn't have before. Ettore is my second heart.

[00:48:38]Emma was my first heart. They ripped it away from me, they took it away from me, I don't have it anymore, it's no longer mine. And now I have this person who was never mine, who doesn't want to be mine, but who lives with me. We have so much fun together.

[00:48:56]Manuela, thank you. Thank you so much. There are no words.

[00:49:02]So, yes, yes, I think we're all very excited, but let's get some help from Roberto now on this, let's say, step. Roberto, my question is for you and it is this. And what struck you most? Can you tell us something more about Manuela Strappi's text in this beautiful book?

[00:49:25]But certainly the authenticity of this book, the questions it asks, the reflections it makes, the answers it gives and which for me are very interesting and are also a reason for my reflection obviously also with respect to my different way of seeing things, but which from my point of view... Like everything, you can look at it from two, so to speak, two sides.

[00:49:59]Well, I tell you, I understand the whole thing about the rift because I too have experienced these rifts many times in my life, also because, for example, my mother died recently, well many times I have had dogs and cats die with whom I had a deep relationship, or my father died, which was a trauma for me because I was still very young and I had a special relationship with him, and so it's clear that I completely agree when you talk about something that is taken away from you and something that is not just a person taken away from you, but also a part of you is taken away, because you, not me, as I was with my father, I will no longer have the opportunity to be myself, that dialogue or those moments, I will no longer be able to experience them.

[00:50:52]So it's clear that m [snorting] there's a a a tear and there's that tear as a separation from someone, right? Like something that you lose. But at the same time, in my opinion, I see this scar as a sort of great threshold through which that person can enter inside us. Well, what I feel is that the people we lose, we don't actually lose them completely. They continue to live inside us, but not in our memories. They continue to live actively inside us and come to visit us in our dreams and talk to us and tell us things we never imagined. So they are living presences.

[00:51:49]I mean, I don't want you to mistake me for a spiritualist at this point, but it's not a question of, I mean, even if I wanted to translate it from a neurobiological point of view, I could say that my father incarnated in my head and now he has his own life, his own life essentially, so he's able to speak through me. That is, I strongly believe that we are the fruit of all these relationships and all these ruptures which, however, have not become voids, but have become another way in which that person lives with us, that is, lives in another way. Then there is certainly the issue of what a body is, which Manuela makes an important reflection on, and which, yes, is often asked, because many times one wonders what relationship there is between me and the body and if in some way what we can feel is a sort of dialogue, right? But in reality they are parts of the body that communicate, from my point of view, that is, the conscious with the unconscious, the unconscious with the endocrine system, the endocrine system with the immune system, that is, we are a big cake from an existential point of view that doesn't even end in our body, but I'm talking about a phenomenology, an extended existentialism, that is, everything that surrounds us. And so this book, in my opinion, is extraordinary from this point of view, that is, it puts you, it points you, no, it puts the spotlight on topics or things that have a fundamental importance in existence, right? Because very often we talk about relationships, but we don't realize that the relationship is us. That is, the relationship is not something that is outside, it is not the other, but it is our being with the other. And so it's clear that, as I said, it's a stream of consciousness, in the sense that it's a great flow of reflection, it's a great moment of liberation because Manuela has experienced, from my point of view, some notable transitions in her life, because obviously the transplant and then many other things, because Manuele is a collection of moments of transition, I don't know how to put it, it's almost Dionysian, right? Not because now his appeal to enjoyment, right?

[00:54:56]Ah, let's enjoy my lesbianism and love each other, shall we?

[00:55:01]this return of Catullus substantially [laughter] is not only this aspect that obviously I understand in her, I already take less part in it, but this is simply a virtue of the senex, right?

[00:55:16]of senility. I 've already given her the cold shoulder on certain things, but that's not really the point, no, obviously, but she's absolutely collected, she's becoming, she's been constantly one tear after another since I've known her, do you understand? That is, everything that happens to him then essentially becomes a paradigm. Well, in my opinion, this is perhaps the book that best represents her, that is, certainly the philosophy of the dog, certainly the alphabet, certainly the book on posthumanism, etc., they are research books, but this is a person who lets you into her home, into her existential home and hosts you. That is, this is a book that hosts you. Okay, so regardless of whether I agree or disagree, if I see it one way, I see it another, which is also the beauty of it, because if we were both always on the same page, it would be a never-ending pain in the ass. I mean, the nice thing is that we also see it differently and so every time we see each other we have something to discuss, otherwise it's about the fact that I essentially believe that the meaning of life exists and that the meaning of life is not so much enjoying it, but the meaning of life, from my point of view, is having a plan. Having a project is something that makes you get up in the morning and tells you and sometimes it's also a sort of self-punishment, the famous one, right?

[00:57:01]Plautian comedy and autontim rumors, the one that is punished, right? If you have a project you don't sit still because you feel like I have to do something, right?

[00:57:12]So, when I say to myself, "But don't you ever stop?" If I stop, I'm lost. Because that is, my pleasure in going to Naturama to constantly think, now I'm making the insect garden there, there wait in the bird garden Bill Garden, this plant is missing. I mean, if I have this book too, I get an idea, it doesn't just stay an idea, I wake up in the middle of the night and start jotting down the project. Here, it's clear that obviously for me the meaning of life is precisely this donation, but this donation which is a little obviously a little deontological, perhaps, but no, because it is ontological, not deontological, it's not that I do it out of duty, I do it because I feel it, but at the same time it is, well, it 's more stoic than picurean essentially [laughter] I can also say Manuela who instead says let's love each other, let's enjoy this existence.

[00:58:14]Okay, it wasn't, it wasn't, what's the matter with me, and then she says it like that because in a short time I've already written two books, so she too [laughter] she too, in short, the hedonism, the hedonism of butchers, leaves the time that [laughter] finds.

[00:58:30]Buddhism, hedonism, Macellonian hedonism is more of a profession of faith [laughter] than a concrete reality.

[00:58:45]Why not, but I say it for the sake of others, I basically don't know others, but yeah, [laughter] there's a point in saying No, but this thing is funny because when Roberto and I meet we talk about serious things, but sometimes every now and then we end up on slightly vulgar topics [laughter] and so maybe I tell him my own business a bit, right? also of a romantic-existential nature, right? Certain.

[00:59:17]And so now he's making fun of me because we're lightening up.

[00:59:22]My life is absolutely beautiful here [laughter]. In the meantime, a comment arrived while Roberto was speaking, I think it was referring to Cinzia and what Manuela told us earlier. If you agree, we'll send it right away. Well, Cinzia Malossi writes: "I'm part of the organ donation coordination and I have a friend of mine who received a kidney donation and every year she celebrates this rebirth and it's beautiful what you 're sharing about your experience with your little girl." So here too there is a return of the joy of having received. Yes, it's something that comes gradually, that is, in the sense that for me, at least, I mean, to tell the truth, I first had to relate to this new dimension, that is, to understand how I functioned, that is, in the sense that, uh, the heart doesn't feel in the same way, not all hearts feel in the same way. I am convinced of this. And this heart feels differently from the other heart. And I've changed a lot as a person, that is, exactly what he told me when he saw it, but do you find me festive? I say no, look, I always find you the same.

[01:00:43][laughter] No, but it was actually funny and he asks me, "But how are you different?"

[01:00:49]And I reply to him, but look, I don't want people bothering me anymore, I mean, I can't take it anymore, I want simple things. So then he replied to me: "They surely gave you the heart of a man?

[01:01:02]So [laughter] there was this exchange, I mean, a character is crazy stuff, I mean, going around with Roberto while he smokes cigarettes tells you about his life, I mean, I may have a life full of ups and downs, but he has a life that, oh Jesus.

[01:01:19][laughter] Okay, but then comes this thing about, I mean, I 've never been grateful to be alive, honestly. I mean, this is one of the things they forbade me to say when they had me because there's the interview with the psychiatrist before the transplant, I mean, so I couldn't say it like my relatives. I tell you, I recommend you, don't say strange things, don't say things and shut up, [laughter] at least talk and say, I 've never been grateful to be alive, I mean, I haven't And instead, I mean, it's actually when there's this moment in which I had been in the hospital for months, I had been in the hospital for more than a month, I couldn't feel the air anymore, the real air, I mean, the stuffy hospital air. They basically put a cap on me, dressed me, and took me out of the hospital. They took off my mask, and I breathed air for the first time, and I remember involuntarily shedding a tear. It was the most powerful moment of my life. I mean, if I have to tell you what the most powerful moment of my life was, it was the moment when I, I mean, when I truly rediscovered life in that moment, the air.

[01:02:31]Breathing the air, the air entering my lungs was like truly re-entering something that, in that moment, had been put on hold. Okay. And then, gradually, gratitude comes. It comes, and then it 's a... it's excuse me, I always analyze from a philosophical point of view. It's terrifying to think that while you're there like that, saying, "Let's hope the heart gets there, let's hope the heart gets there, otherwise I'll die, damn it, I'll die, damn it, I die". [laughter] I mean, I didn't really expect it like that, I have to be honest, but let's say it's that dimension you're in, right? That everyone tells you you're about to die, then the body gives some pretty strong signals at the end, what they call the and stage, the final phase, so they also give you more drugs because there's nothing left to do and there's a person who maybe is alive, is living her life normally, goes out to eat pizza, says hello to her boyfriend in the morning, maybe wakes up beautiful brunette, but with long hair, who goes to do her thing and maybe has a bloody car accident and dies. And my heart arrives, this heart arrives, I mean and so there's this contradiction, right? There's also this piece of pain that you have to keep inside, that is, the piece of pain of a person who has also given up her life in some way, that is, yes, her life is over.

[01:03:54]It's true that I'm alive, but someone died so that I can live and this contradiction that I have inside is a Of the things that most relieve me, I think that Ettore is here because Emma died. I think about this anyway. I think that there's always an outcome, that there was something good, that is, and then this responsibility, which is to make something good out of your life, that is, to say, I no longer want to treat my body badly, I no longer want to treat people badly, I no longer want to do things that, that is, this sense of saying, I want to be, I want this opportunity that was given to me not to be essentially in vain.

[01:04:43]And this is yet another restitution, no, of the gift that was given to me. That is, death is not the end of everything, exactly. I totally agree with Roberto, that is, death is not the end of everything, and precisely this, this is what we can do is perhaps also give back the words of our parents, give back the signs of our dogs, give back the wishes of this person who is with me, that is, I am no longer the only human being, I am a human being together with another human being, that is, I cannot see it in another way because I no longer have I stopped talking to her. Since Mano has been around, allow me, allow me, if you agree, you and I have written to each other in the past, that is, if it's okay with you, I'd like to tell you something, this thing you're talking about tonight, what you wrote in the book and this great gift you gave by giving away part of yourself through tears, actually for me it's a beautiful restitution. And it's a restitution that comes to me after many years, because you and I wrote to each other and I lost two brothers, but the second brother, who was 18, also died suddenly in an accident and I and Manuela have written to each other a lot because my brother's heart was also donated and for me it's beautiful to hear of the care you take.

[01:06:20]Of the effort, but also of the care, of the fact that you spoke from your heart, that this heart makes you responsible for living even better, for experiencing everything you're talking about tonight. It 's not easy for me now because it was a very close thing for me and Manuela.

[01:06:42]But this seems to me to be something that can be very useful to others too, even in I'm referring to what you just mentioned, the burden you say "I carry inside." But I assure you, every family of a person who is no longer with us, who has given consent to the removal and then the transplant, obviously has a subjective and personal opinion. However, I, who have lived this experience with my family, tell you that I can only feel so much joy and know that perhaps my brother's heart, with its nuances, with my brother's character—because you've just told me that the heart still has neurons—lives a little life right inside yours, so it can integrate. And for me, this is a restitution that comes after so many years, and it's beautiful because, in my opinion, people who have a story that must end and a part of them is given as a gift to others, continue to live through those who I am certain of, I mean, it's something I can tell you, I mean, with certainty, for me it was like this, I mean, in the sense that the structure of my path has changed, but my desires have also changed, I mean, not that I've become a Another person, but it makes you feel like you go from the simplest things to the strangest things, like, I used to hate coffee, now I would only drink coffee, I mean, I really hated the taste of coffee, I mean, now I would only drink coffee, this is a really stupid thing, but I mean, anyway, it's beautiful because it means there's something, an extra addition to the thing, the idea of ​​traveling. Okay, now I'd like to see the whole world, I mean, I'd like to get on a plane and see the whole world, I mean, and I swear I've always been uncomfortable about traveling, like, oh God, I have to stay at my house, no, I have to sleep at my house, my bed, my things, I mean, 1700 tranquilizers because otherwise, oh God, what happens? I mean, and instead, I mean, he gave me this openness that I didn't have before as a character, right? This desire to also laugh more, to be more, I mean, to rejoice, to and precisely Ettore, who is this person I have next to me now who is just as if he had me a little too.

[01:09:05]guided to get to know this person, he acts as a guide, that is, when I talk about the dog, that is, if I don't want to be a shaman here, that is, I'm also a shamanic spiritualist, but the point is how much you allow others to enter, right? That is, if you listen to others, you really allow them to tell you things, things are told to you. I mean, Ettore understands it the day I feel worse and I'm struggling more, he walks slower or maybe he stops, he never does that, but I mean, I'm truly convinced that there's a connection, that life is true, science tells you that we live in constant chaos, that is, it's true that more or less, that everything is chaotic, and instead, the longer I live, the more I'm convinced that there's a common thread that holds people's lives together, that there's no place to arrive, I 've always said. There's no place to arrive, but perhaps learning gradually, first of all, that being and non-being are not contradictory, that non-being is nothing, but it's just a non-being, don't be afraid of this non-being, therefore to stop being afraid of losing, that is, in life you lose, that is, there's nothing to be done, that is, in life there are tears and we must learn to work on ourselves. No one—I mean, there's a book by Mazzantini that says, no one saves themselves alone. Scom is a great person, a wonderful person, it's a wonderful book, but it's not a lie.

[01:10:33]I mean, if you're not able to, let's say, create a relationship between yourself, how can you then create a positive one with others? And this is what I've got left, that is, the desire to be with myself, to learn to be with myself, to learn to reason with myself, to relive beautiful experiences with a new person. And this is why I really would like to send a message, that is, to say that yes, they can be lost and we were talking about it, I talked about it on Saturday when we had a conference on the death of non-human animals, that it's true that these people can be lost and it's true that the loss isn't acknowledged, but It's sometimes more burdensome than the loss of a human being for so many reasons, because these people somehow depend on us, voluntarily or involuntarily. However liberal we may be in our way of being with them, of living with them. And then because there begins to be a connection that if you truly experience it fully, that is, if you make sure that the otherness is no longer the other, but the other in me, as Roberto says, then magic happens.

[01:11:49]Magic happens, so that we truly are, we are in each other's arms, and that is, what I understood during my experience is that dying is not easy. That is, when our animals leave us, it's not easy for them either, and it 's not easy for the animals who remain either. That is, we have a group of animals, the animals who remain suffer greatly from the loss. Some, some perhaps less, perhaps more superficial, but then, and therefore, consider the loss, that is, be able to learn to understand that in life there is loss and then there will be a definitive loss which will be the loss of everything we are, of our principle of Identification. Essentially, she would define it as shopenha, but this doesn't mean entering the spider of nothingness, because the spider of nothingness doesn't exist, life exists and then another way of giving oneself to life. Well, it brings substance back. I would say it in Spinoza's terms; I really like Spinozza. It brings back both the substance and then perhaps becomes another attribute again. There, not thank you. Thank you, Manu.

[01:13:04]I would continue with another question for Manuela and sorry [laughter].

[01:13:13]No, I'm Michela, remind me why we are... Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[01:13:21]Listening, sorry. Yes, here.

[01:13:25]So, go.

[01:13:26]Tell me, tell me, I know here.

[01:13:29]Go, you go, Micki. Then, if anything, we can have another evening instead for pro-humanism, come on.

[01:13:36]Because we could also close it this way because Manuela's book on post-humanism, another very beautiful book. I myself wrote the post-humanist age. It would be nice to have an evening of discussion. between these two texts, that is, why? Yes, but you know, for me, this aspect that very often gets confused with a sort of anti-humanism that is absolutely not true, right? Well, it is instead a way of thinking, in my opinion, very important today, because anthropocentrism is the real great and limiting impediment. It is not [clears throat] what safeguards the dignity of the human being, but what limits the development of the human being, the full budding of the human being, because the human being sprouts, precisely, through relationships, right?

[01:14:32]Earlier we heard about the relationship with the cat, the relationship with the dog, but how many times does this come to mind in this prehistoric world? Try to imagine these men moving with these wolves together and building an absolutely new existential dimension, something that, well, I think we will need to reclaim this relational idea with the world, with the whole world, because we have been a bit sickened by this idea that we could do it alone, that we were autarchic, that we were autonomous, that Ultimately, others were just things to be used, just resources, and this, in my opinion, has led us into a dead end.

[01:15:25]Yes.

[01:15:26]And we must get out of this little hole. I say anthropocentrism today is what keeps us hitting the wall, and beyond what we've done, it's like saying it's a dead paradigm, a paradigm that has lost its fertility, that has lost the ability to tell us things. It's a bit like egocentrism, which can perhaps help you take certain steps. So, perhaps an egocentric person can assert himself, but then he reaches a point where his egocentrism becomes his flaw, becomes his limit, becomes his mortgage, and if you continue to think you're winning by playing that game, in reality you don't realize you're losing. So, anthropocentrism today is the great limitation of human beings; it 's not the bastion, it's not the fortress, it's not a resource, but it is absolutely a limitation. Overcoming this limitation is the key to truly generating humanity, to making people do what they want.

[01:16:32]a leap in evolution for the human being, so to speak, of awareness, of consciousness, of culture. Now, this, in my opinion, is a topic we absolutely must discuss because, after all, it is strongly connected to the book, eh str. Absolutely.

[01:16:54]Absolutely because it is not possible to conceive of an individualistic vision without having lived the experience that I have lived. I mean, there is another philosopher who speaks, who spoke about the transplant, Nan, who wrote The Intruder, and he is the first to explain this, in reality, he is a pamphleteer who writes against racism and he says. I do n't know if this heart came from a person of color, from a person, eh, from a person who we consider lesser, okay? Of lesser value, that is, Bryot says that there are many bodies, but not all bodies have the same value, right? But going back to post-anism, here. Eh, however, I mean, I am alive because there is the other, but not only am I alive because there is the other, because I have undergone a Transplant, but what would the world be without relationships?

[01:17:48]That is, everything that is the relationship between micro and macro, that is, the fact that within us there are microbiota that allow us to live, that allow us now to speak here together, and outside there is a world, and this world is within a universe. The universe is constantly expanding, so if I had to imagine a word that represents God, I would speak, I would call it relationship. Relationship is what truly holds everything together, what holds the strings together. And when we instead placed ourselves in competition— because instead of talking about relationship, we tried to compete with other animals, right? Trying to understand what they had less than us, what they were less than us, to compete with nature, wanting to somehow manage it completely, to own every part of the globe and build land not even where there was any— that is, I am referring to what happened in Dubai. And so, when this was our hyper- anthropocentric and hyper-individualistic attitude, without understanding that without relationship we would not exist, That is, that nothing would exist if there were no relationship. Well, this has, in my opinion, taken a lot away from us, it has actually taken us away, it has brought us to this situation. I'm not at all optimistic about this situation. I think we'll get out of it, to be honest, because, as Roberto and I were also saying, unfortunately, transhumanism, which is instead a hyperanism, because precisely by closing ourselves in the niche of our own anthropocentrism, thinking that only human beings can survive, thinking about how to make them survive, will instead create a reality in which certain men will be slaves, reduced to spare parts for men who must live forever, in short. So it's really that we are from a whole other world, that is, transhumanism and posthumanism are sometimes still confused.

[01:19:48]Yes. No, no, but in fact we need to talk about it, but what you were saying, God in the relationship, I very much agree with, and besides, if we look at, let's say, the core of the greatest religions, you can also find it in Christianity, if you go looking for it, if you purify it of all the The trappings that have been sought, the encrustation that has been placed on it, if you look at Christian mysticism you see that the relationship and that, let's say, the non-God or what opposes this is precisely hatred, precisely, conflict and precisely the desire to assert oneself over others, be they plants, other animals, other beings, or other human beings. There, but the denial of God lies precisely in hatred, lies in this form of wanting absolutely, so to speak, to destroy others to assert oneself, which in the end is what we have done.

[01:20:59]Yes.

[01:20:59]And that's what happens.

[01:21:00]So Emanuela, you're pessimistic. I, I, I hope that things don't go this way. I mean, I hope I hope to die young enough, I hope that we manage to win at the last minute, but that in the end we manage to score, you know, that last goal that brings home the results. If you look at who is leading politically, they are truly very optimistic. Yeah, I mean, but [laughter] I hope that's what brings me go ahead. Otherwise, otherwise, and it would be a very sad thing.

[01:21:36]Sure, sure. Sure.

[01:21:38]Anyway, I'm applying, going back to discuss perfectly this amplification of relationships, that is, I am and am being relationships, okay? [laughter] So I'm touching God with my hedonism.

[01:21:56][laughter] Look, okay, Roberto's face.

[01:22:01]I suspend, I suspend judgment, I absolutely suspend the phenomenological epoché [laughter].

[01:22:09]Eh, anyway, okay. I'd say that we, we, we are here. We are absolutely here for what you proposed Roberto because we will absolutely propose an evening of in- depth study on posthumanism.

[01:22:29]Absolutely because then you can't be a dog lover without also being a posthumanist. You ca n't think of having an authentic relationship with an animal without having understood the basic philosophical principles that underlie Roberto Marchesini's thought in zoanthropology, in what is the cognitive zoanthropological approach, in what is his entire relational vision, that is, you can't Detach posthumanism, because otherwise you'll also be appointed dog trainer. But you didn't understand much, I mean, and so I think it's important to delve deeper into the value that posthumanism has within our daily relationships with people, including human beings, with others.

[01:23:17]Yes, yes. But then simplify it, because you know, philosophy very often risks being seen as something non-pragmatic, non- concrete, something that's outside of practice, which is all empty talk, right?

[01:23:35]Like Aristophanes' clouds, I mean. in reality, um, posthumanism is a practical philosophy, essentially it is a philosophy that is based on praxis, on how people should or can behave in order to find meaning in their existence.

[01:23:55]So it's a very, very concrete philosophy, it's absolutely not a philosophy that is, so to speak, simply theoretical. strusa or has some of its own foundations, but then these foundations are brought to the ground and I would like maybe one evening for us to bring them to the ground. That is, what does it essentially mean in everyday life to be a posthumous person? What does it mean to have a sense of existence that extends across the world? Um, and so on, all these things here, so to speak, the relationship with others, and what it means to have a relationship with others, feeling others within yourself and not outside of yourself.

[01:24:43]We absolutely agree.

[01:24:44]This last reflection you made is very important, precisely because we said it at the beginning, how everything we talked about this evening connects to the concreteness of everyday life, even in living with our dogs or in working, in being professionals in the sector.

[01:25:03]So Anna and I are here, so we'll be in touch as always to plan another evening together and in the meantime we thank you for tonight because Thank you, thank you on behalf of the public who follow us and on behalf of me Dianna because it was an evening of intense, intense beauty. A test for everyone tonight, I guess. But beautiful, a great gift, Manu, a great one that you and Roberto have given us, truly thanks to you.

[01:25:35]Thank you, thank you very much and thank you.

[01:25:38]Now, as always, we're giving you, let's say, and with your presence still here with us in the control room, the appointment for the next one. Afterwards, there's a live show that Anna is giving us, and then we'll be back soon for the new edition. We 're already planning 2027 with Anna, so we'll be in touch soon because it will be a pleasure to have you, but not just for one evening. This evening I did nothing but write, it was all so beautiful and rich that it took me a long time, then I don't show it so quickly because my notes are scary, but the pleasure of writing while someone beautiful speaks is something I haven't felt for a while, so thank you. We'll talk again about some projects together.

[01:26:24]Anna, yes, that definitely, indeed. Well, in the meantime we present to you the next evening, the closest one there will be of the After Dinner Live, which will be Monday, May 18th. We'll be waiting for you at the same time, promptly at 8:45 pm, for an evening of company, this time with Dr. Tecla Siviero entitled Second Brain: Why Your Pet's Health Starts in the Gut? This too is very very interesting and involves us, in short. Yes. So wait, then we'll be waiting for you. We thank you all for being with us tonight and above all, good luck with the International Master of Gaming project and also with Roberto's book, which will be released in June. So don't miss out on pre-ordering this book, which will also be discounted for the first 100 that arrive. Oh, and don't miss out on these opportunities. You can find all the links here by watching the after-dinner live broadcast on Roberto's, Siwa's, and Manuela's pages. Manu thank you. A thousand thanks. Good night everyone.

[01:27:37]Thank you.

[01:27:39]Good night. Thank you.