Mr. Loo: From 1M65 to 10M65 | Is $10 Million Really Possible? | DollarsAndSense Podcast Ep50

Added: 2026-06-08

[00:00:00]If you think 1M65 is already difficult to achieve, then you're going to be shocked at what we're going to discuss today. 10M65, so $10 million at age 65 with the help of CPF. Is this just an extreme case that's only applicable to Mr. Lu and his wife, or can realistic ordinary Singaporeans like me and you actually achieve that as well?

[00:00:27]Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to a special episode on the Dollars and Sense podcast. We are at the Singapore International Bicentennial 2026 presented by CIMB, and I have with me on the show the founder of 1M65, Mr. Lu Chen Xuan. For those of you who don't know, 1M65 is basically short for how you can be a millionaire by age 65 just using CPF.

[00:00:47]Mr. Lu, once again, welcome to the Dollars and Sense podcast.

[00:00:50]>> Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for inviting. Thank you.

[00:00:52]>> When you first started talking about 1M65, this was almost 10 years ago, if you remember.

[00:00:57]>> We We were talking about it. Like 2 or 3 years ago.

[00:01:00]>> Do you expect 1M65 to actually be such a big movement by today?

[00:01:04]>> No, I never I never thought of it as a as a movement that's so big. You saw the crowd today, it was amazing. The inspiration was merely to do it as a financial education to help people to know that CPF is really a powerful wealth-generating machine. Our lives are being transformed in a better way. So, I want to thank the people and followers in the movement. They helped spread the word.

[00:01:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember when we did 1M65, I was thinking, "Wow, you know, this is going to get us into trouble. We'll be the least popular people in Singapore."

[00:01:38]You know, because back then people were saying we turned our CPF, and here is Mr. Lu saying, "Not just return your CPF, top up your CPF." Even for your standard your your controversial standard, from 1M65 to 10M65 is still a huge leap. If I can say, it's like asking people to climb Mount Everest.

[00:01:57]When do you think you actually could do it? At what point in time?

[00:02:01]>> Now, you need to understand that it's a incremental journey along the way. When we started off 10 over years ago with a 1M65 journey, a lot of people also say it cannot be done.

[00:02:09]>> Yes.

[00:02:10]>> And here I am one actually said it can be done. After a few years, the movement became so strong everybody realized it can be done. And in those days it was just a spreadsheet exercise. Not very long after we launched a 1M65 strategy, my wife and I achieved it. Okay, I remember it was 1M45.

[00:02:28]>> 1M45, 45 years old you got.

[00:02:30]>> And then I When I share everybody, not very long after that we have got people in the community say, we have also done it. We've also done it. We've also done it. So, the we have also done it voice became so loud that I realized we need a higher bar.

[00:02:46]>> Yes.

[00:02:46]>> Because I realized that when I set the bar high and I give the strategy, people achieved it. My next jump was also with you. Dollars and Sense, which you always a trusted partner, and we launched 4M65 in 2020 just before COVID. And again, right, the same voices came out.

[00:03:04]How can it be possible? No, it cannot be done. Cannot be done. Cannot be done.

[00:03:07]Cannot be done.

[00:03:08]And then we got ridicule again and things like that.

[00:03:11]And lo and behold, after a few years, I see so many people now achieving it. So, I realized that whenever we set the bar high people actually achieved it.

[00:03:20]>> Yes.

[00:03:21]>> So, it's more important that we to show and lead the way to tell this can be done. Now, giving yourself the analogy that you came up with, I now push it to 10M65.

[00:03:32]>> like Mount Everest.

[00:03:33]>> From four to 10 is a very big jump, right?

[00:03:36]>> yes.

[00:03:37]>> But the good thing is this, I set the bar high.

[00:03:40]I don't need everybody to reach Mount Everest. And it's just that it happens that I had an early start. I had good mentor, a good mentor that taught me this early. And some of us I have the luck that we start early. Some of us start later, you'll find more difficult.

[00:03:54]You can do 10, you can't do 10 m. You hit hit hit him. You could cannot do 8 m, do 6 m. Cannot do 6, do 4, do 3, do 2, do 1.

[00:04:02]Whatever it is, the kung fu that I shared with everybody will help you do better. Right? I think that's the most important thing.

[00:04:10]If you can't you reach Mount Everest peak, you can you can reach base camp.

[00:04:14]And that's good enough already.

[00:04:15]>> Oh, you mean >> That is very good actually.

[00:04:16]>> Midway. It's very good already, right?

[00:04:18]Even 4 a.m. I don't know I For myself, I used to get jabouille out of me.

[00:04:22]So when you talk about >> 10 m 6 5, I just want to be clear, you're not just referring to CPF alone, right?

[00:04:27]>> No, I majority majority of that will come from your CPF. I realized a undervalued asset called the SRS.

[00:04:37]>> Okay.

[00:04:37]>> It's often under appreciated and under utilized. So I included that in as well.

[00:04:43]So I will combine the to have a nicer number called 10 m again, right? It's just saying that Mount Everest is so high.

[00:04:50]Again, you know, if you feel that, you know, SRS is something not important, then drop to maybe 9 m or 8 m. It doesn't matter. It's still a very big number.

[00:04:58]>> And your presentation alone, you talked about I think this was something different from when we first had a conversation more than almost 10 years ago, which is investing your OA savings.

[00:05:08]Right? So you talked you talked about OA savings as dry powder for investing. Can you explain more about how you think about it?

[00:05:14]>> I've always said that the 1 and 6 5 investment strategy is a kueh lapis investment structure.

[00:05:20]>> Kueh lapis.

[00:05:20]>> Okay. Where the base is a financial safety net using your SA, your MA to form the first million.

[00:05:30]>> Mhm.

[00:05:30]>> Right? Then on top of that, you use your OA, okay, or maybe something as spare cash on top, you can deploy into globally diversified index funds. And I always strongly encourage people to invest it during crashes. And that will form the second layer. And then any other risky thing you can form later on top.

[00:05:48]>> So, this is where I think it's very important for us to to know that the ordinary account, although it gives a 2.5% return, it's high, but probably not as high as some investment opportunity that can come about when market crashes. So, I'll deploy all these into stock market when the stock market crashes and you outsize return that you have so you have seen yourself.

[00:06:11]>> You mentioned earlier in your talk today that it is important to build your financial safety net first before taking investment risk and that the sequence matter. Can you elaborate more because I think a lot of young Singaporeans what they want to do is that they actually want to invest aggressively early because they feel that, you know, I'm young and take more risk, but your strategy kind of is contrary >> that. Because Now, I believe in that strategy because I was badly burned during the Asian financial crisis. I realized that because I did not have a financial safety net, my investment emotions was not strong enough to handle a massive downturn. So, you started investing in your 20s I started investing first, then I realized that my financial emotions was not stable.

[00:06:59]>> Right.

[00:06:59]>> So, by reversing the sequence, I built the safety net first, I found that wow, when the market correction come, it turns out that I have the ability to invest during crashes and you very high returns. So, I I strongly encourage everybody to build a financial safety net first, last year with CPF because that will then help you stabilize your investment emotions.

[00:07:24]>> So, you talked about topping up your CPF when you're in your 20s, but in your 20s is also the age where a lot of people make a lot of important financial decisions. So, a lot of people would use their money to buy a house, either in terms of the down payment or the monthly installment using their OA savings. People want to travel, renovation, they have kids. So, to ask them to top up their CPF feels like, you know, it's equally be asking too much.

[00:07:50]How do you prioritize your CPF for back then when you also had kids and housing down payments and all this to make?

[00:07:55]>> So, I also went through the same journey, right? People shouldn't be able to say that long ago life was easier.

[00:08:00]That's not true, right? We also gone through hardship as well.

[00:08:04]So, our incomes were lower then. The most important thing we should start with is having a government subsidized BTO.

[00:08:10]>> Okay.

[00:08:11]>> Very, very important. If you want to buy a resale, if you buy a condo, yeah, their whole plans will be derailed because it's just too expensive.

[00:08:18]>> Yes.

[00:08:18]>> I think a Singapore BTO is still pretty affordable because it's highly subsidized by the government.

[00:08:25]It's not that big a financial burden.

[00:08:28]The amount of spares that you probably can accumulate if you have some spares in your ordinary account, uh you can transfer that into your special account as early as possible.

[00:08:36]>> To earn higher interest.

[00:08:38]>> To earn higher interest and to top up to let compounding take its course.

[00:08:41]And so far, I do not encourage people to use cash to top up.

[00:08:45]>> Okay.

[00:08:45]>> Right? Now, along the way as you grow into your 30s, you find your income has increased, then maybe you got some spare cash because of bonuses that you have or whatsoever, then top up some into your special account and let the power compounding take its course as early as possible. You need to uh hang the first 10 to 15 years, which I used to phrase.

[00:09:05]And gradually the returns will come in a phenomenal way. So, in short, we all went through that. The The key thing is don't burden yourself with a private property. The rest will come uh will come more easily.

[00:09:17]>> For someone who's watching this and he's already in his 40s and he just chance upon 1M65 the last couple of years and he thinks to himself, "Wow, this is a great strategy, but I'm already in my 40s." And maybe he has used his CPF OA to pay for his HDB flat, still currently servicing using his OA. Is it too late for someone like that to Let alone 1 M65, let alone 4 M65, or even 10 M65.

[00:09:41]>> Well, if you don't have a private property ambition >> Wait, so HDB flat still satisfies >> If it's just HDB, most people if their income is reasonably >> 5,000 a month, maybe?

[00:09:52]>> Yeah, reasonably, they have a good chance of hitting a 1 M65 for sure.

[00:09:55]>> Okay.

[00:09:56]>> Uh even combined husband and wife, even alone, is it possible? Okay, we all start very frugal in our lifestyle, and only in the later years when our wealth is start to have some extravagance in life, like going for a nicer holiday and things like that. So, I think that for most people, if they were to pick a BTO uh work very hard >> Work hard.

[00:10:18]>> be frugal >> Okay.

[00:10:20]>> I think it's doable. Um million-dollar CPF by the time retire uh is very possible.

[00:10:26]>> You talk about HDB housing, BTO flat, but there's a lot of Singaporeans today, right? They do well, right? You know, they they started, you know, at a lower salary, but in their 30s, in their 40s, they're earning more. And naturally, you know, them, their spouse, they will aspire to maybe want to live in a condominium or landed property, but your 10 M65 strategy, you know, you actually warn against upgrading to a private condo or landed property. What would people think about this trade-off? But what if my wife really wants to live in a landed property?

[00:10:57]>> Life is a matter of choice, right? I will just say this, there are people who actually really value for whatever reason, like enjoy private property staying, maybe a condo or landed property, that's fine. Okay, that's fine, and that's a choice they have. They do some trade-off, they do their calculations and say that, "Okay, I may have less for my retirement, but I have a nice condo, and I enjoy the utility of it." That's absolutely okay.

[00:11:23]Now, what I have an issue is people who say, "I want to use property as an investment." Right. Okay, and then and then let it grow, and then by the time we retire, I move back to HDB again. It is very surprising to many people that actually by not putting yourself in a expensive private property, you can actually do better. Right, I don't know whether anybody with a condo staying can do 10 and 65. And this are liquid asset, you know? Liquid asset.

[00:11:50]Majority of it liquid asset that you can't sell easily, right? And it's a house that you live in usually. It's a trade-off. They have to a decision they have to make. There's nothing wrong with if you decide that you do this what you want. But don't do it because you want to make a lot of money to a property then to go back to HDB.

[00:12:06]>> The agents call it asset progression, huh?

[00:12:08]>> I call it I call it a lifestyle regression.

[00:12:10]>> Lifestyle regression.

[00:12:11]>> Yeah, lifestyle regression. Why do I do that, right? I want to have a tougher young life so that I can enjoy my old age. Not to wonderful life in my young to regress in my lifestyle when I'm old.

[00:12:23]You know?

[00:12:23]>> Okay. One of the concept you brought up just now also is a very seldom talked about discussion which is voluntary housing refund. I I think not everyone is familiar with it. Do you mind elaborating what is that and why do you do it also?

[00:12:37]>> When you reach closer to 55 years old, once you open up your CPF app, go into the housing section.

[00:12:44]>> Housing section.

[00:12:45]>> You'll see how much you owe your own CPF account.

[00:12:48]>> own CPF.

[00:12:49]>> Your own.

[00:12:49]>> Because of the interest that's compounded.

[00:12:51]>> Number one, you take out a lot of money for housing payment. Number two, there's accrued interest.

[00:12:56]So, the combined one is usually hundreds of thousands >> of dollars.

[00:13:00]>> And you can make a top-up.

[00:13:02]>> You have the choice to make a top-up.

[00:13:04]>> Refund, refund. Give it a proper name, right?

[00:13:05]>> Top-up of of this audio account through this channel we call it voluntary refund your housing. Okay, so we call it voluntary housing refund.

[00:13:15]And by doing that, you put money back in your audio account, you'll give you 2.5%. The minute you hit 55 years old, assuming you remit your full retirement sum in your retirement account, any amount above $20,000 can be withdrawn anytime you want. So, in short, your ordinary account becomes a 2.5% savings account.

[00:13:37]>> Right. Right.

[00:13:38]>> It's the highest you can ever get. I don't know, maybe in the world, but at least in Singapore, there's no savings account or even fixed deposit that can give you 2.5% now.

[00:13:47]>> You also talk about investing your CPF OA and you were very clear in your slides that you don't invest in individual [clears throat] stocks, but only in globally diversified index fund.

[00:13:57]Why do you choose this approach?

[00:13:58]>> Over the last 50 to 100 years, there have always been an upward trend with some volatility in between. And we are not betting on a single company, we are betting on maybe 500 companies in the case of S&P 500, Nasdaq 100, you're betting on 100 companies, MSCI World Index, you're betting on 1,400 companies. So, when you bet across many, many companies, you get what we call market return. This market return is generally very comfortable, enough for me.

[00:14:26]>> Okay.

[00:14:26]>> And we can get anything between 7 to 15% return depending on which time frame you look at, which asset you look at.

[00:14:34]So, this is a safer approach for people who are busy. Many experts actually say that 99% of people, maybe even more more than 99.9% of people, cannot beat the market.

[00:14:46]So, for people who are very busy like myself, like many people, you know, why do you want to take the risk when you can get very good Then you realize it's 10:00 a.m., you know. You know you're hawking with a chap go lay out already. Why do you want to do that kind of risk?

[00:15:00]>> Yeah, talking about market return. So, earning what the market gives you through a diversified portfolio. One of the things you did mention is though that is you fresh buy, meaning that when the market do dip, you actually put in more money [clears throat] to buy. How has that worked out for you?

[00:15:14]>> Well, number one is a lot of people like to predict >> Predict.

[00:15:18]>> where the market will hit. There are two beauty of fresh buying. Number one, some tell where the market is going.

[00:15:24]And I think there's a lot of people can't tell. How we always know where the market is right now. If we are in a crash, we surely know, right?

[00:15:31]>> Yes.

[00:15:32]>> So, therefore, when the market is on a crash, you know, just slam down into it.

[00:15:36]Okay, then walk away. Don't see, don't hear, don't look. Just walk away. And just let it just build it up over time.

[00:15:42]As I told you, the S&P 500, the MSCI World Index, the Nasdaq, all go up over decades. So, I just need to be patient and let the compounding take its course.

[00:15:52]>> Right.

[00:15:52]>> So, that's one. Number two is I think young people find difficult to understand this. But, people like us in our 40s, 50s, 60s, we cannot take uh severe market drawdown. Okay? And when we will see your needed retirement funds suffering a massive drawdown, your psychology will cause you to react in the wrong way.

[00:16:14]Will cause you to sell when you should buy, and it cause you to buy when you should sell.

[00:16:19]So, I like to take less market drawdown. So, when the market crashes, then I buy. Then the the suffer So, the pain that I have to take is a lot lower than one who maybe use other investment strategy. And then suddenly goes down and you take a heart attack.

[00:16:39]>> When people follow 1M65, 4M65, 10M65, a lot of them are tempted to maybe just do what you're doing.

[00:16:48]Here's my contrarian question. Why should people not copy blindly from you?

[00:16:52]>> Well, we all have different life priorities, different family circumstances, different health consideration. Your life goal drive your financial goal.

[00:17:02]So, this is a very interesting philosophy taught to me by Christopher Tan, a good friend.

[00:17:07]>> I think I heard him say that before.

[00:17:08]>> Yeah, your life goal drive your financial goal and it if your life goal is one that with 1M is enough, then why you go and copy Mr. Lu? Copy Mr. Lu and take his level of pain that he's going to go through, work until 70 years old, whatever. I'm just saying, right? You cater for what your needs are.

[00:17:28]>> Right.

[00:17:28]>> I didn't have to do anything different for my life. If you see the strategy that I adopt adopted, none of them, okay, are sophisticated strategies.

[00:17:37]>> Yes, they're very simple.

[00:17:38]>> Very simple strategy, and if you just need to continue to do what I'm doing now, I will hit 10 M.

[00:17:45]>> One thing you always mention and and that's maybe one of the reasons why you are going you have a chance of hitting 1 M 65 is that you are still working. You and your spouse are still working even though I think Mr. Lu is already financially independent if he wants to be. So, here's the question I have. Like you call it a spouse multiplier, you and your spouse. Double his income is better than single income, but what if my spouse don't really want to work?

[00:18:08]>> For me and my wife, we enjoy working.

[00:18:11]So, work is not process to reach a goal.

[00:18:15]Work is the goal. The things that I do, I really enjoy a lot. I can do this forever if my health permits, 80, 90, 100 years old, I'm still going to continue to do this. So, there was never that discussion about that. Now, about for some other people, they hate their boss, they hate their colleague, they hate their work, whatever, right? Then they make a another decision. My strongest encouragement to everybody is if you can, try to enjoy your work. But at least if you don't like your work, change to another work that you enjoy.

[00:18:42]Take a pay cut if necessary. Then you can last longer in your life. When you wake up, you feel like, you know, you're looking forward to the day. When you sleep, you look back and say, "Wow, it's a it's a day well spent." That kind of life you can live very long.

[00:18:54]>> I realized that a lot of people in the 1 M 65 community, they tend to be couples as well. Have you ever encountered situations where only one spouse is working towards the 1 M 65, but the other person, you know, maybe is not as financially disciplined. Is it a difficult situation to manage?

[00:19:12]>> There's a Chinese saying in Chinese Jia You Ben Nan Nian. and my Chinese is very bad.

[00:19:16]>> Which means that every family have their own issues that they have to settle.

[00:19:20]Now, I think it's important that in a marriage, husband wife must be aligned in their life goal, financial goal, philosophy in bring up their children whatsoever.

[00:19:32]The more aligned you are, the easier to get things done.

[00:19:36]The easier to achieve certain things. If one person has a certain direction and the other have a different direction, then you have to make a choice, right?

[00:19:46]You've got three choices. Follow this one or follow that one or just go different path. You can still have a happy marriage. Financially draw a line in the accounts. You spend the money this way, I spend money this way. You don't touch my money, I don't touch your money. We can still be a good husband and wife. I would just say you have always a choice to choose >> the path you want. So, alignment is better, but even if there isn't, you can still make a decision that works for your family.

[00:20:08]>> Absolutely.

[00:20:09]>> There's a lot of listeners right now and I think for people in different age group, they might need to have different advice that you can give them, right?

[00:20:17]So, maybe three practical things that someone watching can can think about. If for example, number one, if they're in their 20s or 30s.

[00:20:25]>> If they're 20s and 30s, live frugally, work very hard, pop up your CPF as quick and early as possible.

[00:20:32]>> Okay, someone in their 40s.

[00:20:34]>> So, at the age of 40 years old, you need to start looking at stock investments and diversify somewhere or the other assets as well.

[00:20:42]And need to start thinking about uh maxing out your SA and possibly even to move your mortgage payment from CPF to cash. For a 50, get yourself ready for the transition from SA to RA. 55 years old, that's a huge opportunity there to beef up your retirement account and take advantage of CPF Life. That is a government given blessing to everybody. A lot of people doesn't know CPF Life really well. A lot of our contemporaries in the financial space misled a lot of people. But >> Yes.

[00:21:21]>> CPF Life is one of the greatest gift the government has give us. I strongly encourage everybody if your health permits it and your wealth permits it, go top up as high as possible, possibly even to ER.

[00:21:35]>> RS.

[00:21:35]>> And if you adopt the right strategy, in my case I can hit 7,000 with dollars >> Wow.

[00:21:40]>> every month for my CPF Life.

[00:21:42]>> Oh, that's a good one.

[00:21:43]>> day I die.

[00:21:43]>> Wow. And you're aiming for what? 100?

[00:21:46]>> I'm aiming for 100 years >> 100 100 years old.

[00:21:48]>> Yeah.

[00:21:49]>> That's going to cost the government a lot of money.

[00:21:51]>> 2.6 million dollars.

[00:21:52]>> 2.6 You already did the sums already. All right, that's amazing. All right, I think that's that's all we have. Thank you, Mr. Lu and >> Thanks for inviting.

[00:21:59]>> Yes. I think the big takeaway for me at least is that not everyone needs to hit 10 million dollar or tell them 6 mile for the strategy to be relevant to them.

[00:22:07]So, even if you as what Mr. Lu shared, you shoot for the stars and if even if you miss, you still land on the moon and that's still not too bad an outcome. CPF is not just a force saving scheme, but if used well, together with SRS, housing decisions, current income and time, it can be a very powerful part of our retirement plans. But the sequence matter. Build the safety net first, understand the trade-off and stay invested, keep contributing and perhaps more importantly, tahan the boring years long enough for compound interest that actually work for you. If you enjoyed this episode, remember to follow us on the Dollars and Sense, whether it's on the YouTube channel, Instagram page or on Spotify. We'll see you again.