Mark Howard's Tithe Claims Exposed – What Ellen White Actually Said.

[00:00:00]And she doesn't want people to follow the example. It seems odd to me that people would use this letter to advocate redirecting tithe when Ellen White herself expresses the less known about such situations the better because they're exceptional.

[00:00:15]>> Pastor Mark Howard has preached a message yesterday and I was listening to it as it was happening.

[00:00:27]Paying attention to some things that were being shared.

[00:00:30]So, let's get right into it. This is about 44 minutes in. Uh by the way, just for summary's sake for people who haven't seen this.

[00:00:40]Pastor Mark Mark Howard uh about 21 minutes into the message to 25 minutes, he plays great emphasis on the sacredness of the tithe from a biblical perspective and as well as from the spirit of prophecy as well.

[00:00:54]Well, one of the arguments he also made is it's about 30 minutes in. He argued that the concept of the storehouse from a biblical sense and how it applies primarily and only to the organization, which is the General Conference.

[00:01:11]And then he moved over to the Watson letter and this is where we're going to talk a little bit. It's about 50 51 minutes in. He started speaking about the Watson letter and that's where he shared some things as well.

[00:01:24]Uh primarily the argument is the tithe is sacred, is from the Lord, it only it should come to the General Conference.

[00:01:31]You cannot use it as a mean of punishment to apostasy. No matter what the apostasy is, you should still return your tithes. Withholding the tithe is wrong. We We Reallocate the tithe to any other institution is also wrong. And he calls that out very clearly in his sermon. So, what we want to talk about now is the segment where he is addressing um um the Watson letter and then from there he's going to move slightly to the correction about about re-holding the ties and so on as well. So, let's take a listen to that and then we're going to examine some of some of the things that are said in the record.

[00:02:05]>> The odds in charge.

[00:02:07]Will the minister aid the enemy or the elder in this case? Either or? Aid the enemy in his work or will he as a wise man and do with knowledge go to work to correct the evil and remove the stumbling blocks? Here it's addressing fix some of the problems that the members are concerned with and I say amen to that.

[00:02:26]Let those who are dissatisfied state plainly their grievances to the ones who they think have aired instead of talking the matter over with others and thus fanning the flames of discontent.

[00:02:40]There's been a lot of fanning of the flames in recent years.

[00:02:46]And this is the point where people will say, "Those who are aware, well, what about the Watson letter?

[00:02:52]Doesn't that say something about you can give your money where you want to? Isn't it proving that there are times where we can direct our redirect our our ties to more worthy ministries?"

[00:03:04]Again, most of you have not probably heard of the Watson letter.

[00:03:09]But you're going to hear about it in this context now.

[00:03:12]Uh you can read the whole letter in its entirety in the Ellen White biography.

[00:03:16]You'll see the reference on the slides I'm going to use. I'm going to take excerpts from that and also that paper, the history and use of the tithe, has a great article on it.

[00:03:28]To properly understand the Watson letter though, you have to understand a little bit of the context that we talked about uh uh at the other day when we were talking hermeneutics yesterday. You've got to understand a little of the external context. Here's the background of the letter. In 1904, a representative of the Southern Missionary Society was visiting the state of Colorado.

[00:03:47]He made an appeal to help the developing work in the South. It was denominational work by the way. This wasn't a supporting ministry or something else, which I think is interesting.

[00:03:58]That you don't often hear from people who do quote the Watson letter.

[00:04:02]This man received a gift of $400, part of the money being from the tithe.

[00:04:08]Some of the church members said they were paying a large tithe, and they weren't wholly pleased with the way that in which in which it was used.

[00:04:17]Which we've just read counsel on that.

[00:04:19]But you can't control You know, nobody polices all of this.

[00:04:25]As their own conference was strong and had a good income, so they did still support their conference. They just felt like we have an excess and there's this work in our denomination. You have to understand, at the time this happened, that our denomination was not established worldwide yet. We had expanding areas of work, and we didn't have systems set up to support the ministers in those areas. We also didn't have areas in those days. We also didn't have a retirement system for the older ministers, and you'll see that reflected in a minute. Uh Arthur White covers all of that in that history and use of the tithe article.

[00:04:59]But the church members said, "Let us send some of our tithe to be used in the good work for the neglected colored people in the southern states."

[00:05:09]Which they did.

[00:05:10]Arthur White continues, "The money was placed in the treasury of the Southern Missionary Society. It still was was in house. It was within the church, and was paid out in a regular and economical way to approved laborers who were engaged in regular denominational work." Now, these are nuances or details that sometimes when people use the Watson letter to say, "Well, Ellen White did doesn't so," you don't get these details.

[00:05:36]Then in everything we're talking about in this case, the Watson case, it was all denominational.

[00:05:42]For whatever ever that's worth.

[00:05:46]Of course, the officers of the Colorado conference became aware of this and they felt that the action of the officers of the Southern Missionary Society was worthy of public condemnation and that the money should be returned to them.

[00:06:04]And of course, a disagreement arose cuz the money had already been sent out to the poor ministers to help them with their basic needs.

[00:06:13]And the issue was becoming heated, so Sister White wrote a letter to Elder Watson cautioning him about making too much fuss in the matter.

[00:06:21]And I here are some excerpts of what she said.

[00:06:24]"Be careful how you move. You are not moving wisely.

[00:06:29]The least you have to speak about the tithe that has been appropriated to the most needy and most discouraging field in the world, the more sensible you will be.

[00:06:42]It has been presented to me for years that my tithe was to be appropriated by myself to aid the white and colored ministers who were neglected because we didn't have the established work in these areas, as I mentioned, and did not receive sufficient properly to support their families.

[00:07:06]When my attention was called to aged ministers, white or black, it was my special duty to investigate. Let me pause for a minute and ask, what makes something special?

[00:07:22]For example, if I call your birthday your special day, or you call your birthday your special day, or your anniversary, why is it a special day?

[00:07:30]If every day was your anniversary, would it still be a special day?

[00:07:35]No.

[00:07:36]If every day was your birthday, would it be a special day? No. So, when you say special, when she says special duty, she's talking about and we talked used this word the other day, something that we would call an exception.

[00:07:50]We talk about exceptions and rules. A rule is the thing you do most of the time, but an exception is is when the rule doesn't happen.

[00:07:59]And it's usually a special occasion.

[00:08:02]It was my special duty to investigate into their necessities and supply their needs. This was my special work.

[00:08:10]And I have done this in a number of cases.

[00:08:14]No man should give notoriety to the fact that in special cases the tithe is used in that way. Now, why would you not want to give notoriety to it?

[00:08:25]WHAT DOES NOTORIETY MEAN? You going to let people know about it. If they should be doing this and following this practice, wouldn't it be important to let them know about it?

[00:08:34]Yes or no?

[00:08:35]Yeah, you want them to know about it.

[00:08:37]She says, "No, notoriety shouldn't be given in this." You'll see why she says that as she continues.

[00:08:42]So, notice her expressions, my special duty, my special work, no man should give notoriety, special cases.

[00:08:51]I have myself appropriated my tithe to the most needy cases brought to my notice. I have been what?

[00:08:59]Oh yes, and she also was a prophet.

[00:09:02]And who instructed her?

[00:09:05]Conference leaders? No, the Lord instructed the prophet to do something special and unique.

[00:09:12]And she says, "As the money is not withheld from the Lord's treasury, why?

[00:09:17]Because it was still going to denominational work.

[00:09:20]No. It is not a matter that should be commented upon.

[00:09:26]For it will necessitate my making known these matters which I do not desire to do because it is not best.

[00:09:35]Why is it not best?

[00:09:37]If this is a good practice that we want everybody to be aware of.

[00:09:42]After further counsel, she concludes her letter by saying, "If this matter is given publicity, it will create a knowledge which would be better left as it is.

[00:09:57]I would not advise that anyone should make a practice of gathering up tithe money.

[00:10:05]I write this to you, this conference president, Elder Watson, so that you shall keep cool and not become stirred up and give publicity to this matter.

[00:10:15]Notice, lest many more shall follow their example."

[00:10:21]Who cares if they follow their example?

[00:10:23]If their example is what we all ought to be doing. And this is the point I want to make to you this morning is when we start talking about things, listen, we're living in the last days.

[00:10:32]And the church is a mess. That we got problems in our church. And so, inevitably, I don't care where you live in the Adventist church, I can't imagine there's not a problem somewhere.

[00:10:41]And so, as a member, you're like, "Well, there's this problem and I don't know if I feel comfortable giving to here." And so, now we all start doing like they did in the book of Judges, whatever's right in our own eyes, and we're going to send here to this ministry that and do and this and that.

[00:10:52]And we say, "No, no, no, Spirit of Prophecy tells us where we ought to be giving." You say, "Yeah, but there's the Watson letter."

[00:10:58]This is what people will say. It's the Watson letter, and that says we can give wherever. Is that what the Watson letter saying here?

[00:11:05]It seems to be saying the exact opposite.

[00:11:08]LIKE THERE WERE SPECIAL CASES, AND INCIDENTALLY, for the most part, Sister White wasn't giving to another field because she was she felt the church was using it irresponsibly.

[00:11:18]It's because God revealed a need.

[00:11:23]And she doesn't want people to follow the example. It seems odd to me that people would use this letter to advocate redirecting tithe when Ellen White herself expresses, "The less known about such situations, the better, because they're exceptional."

[00:11:38]Giving publicity to the matter will create a knowledge which would be better left as it is.

[00:11:44]She didn't want people to make a practice of redirecting tithe.

[00:11:48]She was concerned about many more people following the example.

[00:11:52]I mean, what does this say about ministers or leaders who make it a part of their ministry to give publicity to the very thing the prophet said don't give PUBLICITY TO?

[00:12:02]AND ACTIVELY encourage people to either follow this example now, or prepare them to follow it in the near future. I have some people say, "Well, there's certain ministries that that they're not asking that we should do this now, but there's a time coming when we should do That's not what it's telling us here.

[00:12:18]The The tithe is never to be used as a corrective measure. It's not yours.

[00:12:26]Some people will say, "Well, tithe There are times when tithe was used in given other places." It's true. I mean, there are more examples that I could give besides the Watson situation.

[00:12:36]But it was never because the the the the ones giving elsewhere were trying to correct apostasy in the church.

[00:12:50]>> Ellis, the Listen, the the platform is wide open. I don't have any question I'm going to direct to anybody at this point. Free fall. Let free fall.

[00:13:00]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, I'm ready to go. I I Leah, let me I usually don't jump in first, but I'll jump in [laughter] first.

[00:13:05]>> Go for it.

[00:13:06]>> Um I'm riding shotgun. I'm riding shotgun.

[00:13:09]Go ahead.

[00:13:09]>> I need I need some clarification real quick. So, I was going to ask you to to go back a little bit, cuz let me see. I got the Watson letter pulled up right in front of me. I have it as well. And so, he was reading he read up to I think that's 1 2 3 4 5 the fifth paragraph, right? So where it says Um where she says I I do not care to give publicity to this work which the Lord has appointed me to do and others to do. So he read that part.

[00:13:46]>> Which paragraph was that? Was that number five?

[00:13:48]>> That's number five, paragraph five. So I want to make sure that I don't um misquote my my brother here or or say something that he did or did not do.

[00:13:59]>> Okay.

[00:14:00]>> Did any of you hear him read paragraph six?

[00:14:04]>> No. Justin, you you you two did it, Justin. You >> So so so because the reason why I'm asking because he jumps straight to >> Yeah.

[00:14:16]I'm sorry.

[00:14:17]>> Did I say that right?

[00:14:19]>> No, you're right.

[00:14:19]>> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, he didn't read paragraph six. He jumped straight to paragraph seven.

[00:14:23]>> Yep. You know >> He doesn't read paragraph six. So So let's read it real quick.

[00:14:28]>> Context.

[00:14:29]>> [laughter] >> So So notice in paragraph six it says, "I send this letter to you so that you shall not make a mistake.

[00:14:37]Circumstances alter cases."

[00:14:40]>> Oh boy.

[00:14:42]>> That's interesting she said that.

[00:14:43]Circumstances alter cases. I would not advise that anyone should make a practice of gathering of tithe. So he read that. Tithe money. But for years she says but Notice she said but she would not uh make it a practice.

[00:14:56]>> This wasn't This wasn't quoted.

[00:14:59]>> So but for years there have now and then been persons who have lost confidence in the appropriation of the tithe who have placed their tithe in my hands and said that if I did not take it they would themselves appropriate to the families of the most needy ministers they could find. I have taken the money, given a receipt for it, and told them how it was appropriate. So question.

[00:15:21]>> Wow.

[00:15:22]>> Number one, she says circumstances also so I agree I agree with the pastor.

[00:15:27]I agree.

[00:15:29]She didn't intend for it to be practice.

[00:15:31]That makes sense because ideally God's church should be united in mission.

[00:15:36]>> That's right.

[00:15:36]>> We should all be supporting our institutions who are in line with God's word. There should be no division or or differences when it comes to what we've been called to do. That's ideal. That is what she's That's what she wants. That's what we should want. That's what we all should hope for. But she says circumstances alter cases.

[00:15:57]She does not want to want it to be a practice, but for years there have now and then been persons who have lost confidence in the appropriation of the tithe, who have placed their tithe in my Question, why didn't she rebuke these individuals?

[00:16:12]>> Why didn't she just give it back to them and say go give it to your conference?

[00:16:15]>> them no?

[00:16:16]Right.

[00:16:18]They In other words, circumstances alter cases where it was necessary. Where it had to be done. To her point, she this Why? Why doesn't she want to be publicized? Because she don't want people who are not There are people who are not honest. There are people who are who are not genuine. There are people who are trying to weaponize the tithe for their own selfish and personal bitterness or whatever they're going through. That's wisdom. That's wise. But to say that there is never a situation in the future where we should redirect tithes from institutions or from conferences such That's not what she said.

[00:16:58]So what she's saying is upholding an ideal that we should all hope for and strive for. But if circumstances alter cases where the ideal cannot be upheld or it cannot it it it In other words, it's not it's not happening.

[00:17:18]Here's what she had to do because individuals who can think for themselves recognize that now it's interesting because he read that the context is that people were appropriating tithe to a needy field where the colored ministers were neglected, right? Now, >> Neglected.

[00:17:35]>> Notice she he said that oh, well, we weren't properly organized. I looked up the word neglected. Because she doesn't she doesn't say it was a lack of organization. The word neglected describes something or someone that has not received enough care, attention, or proper maintenance. It often applies that a duty or responsibility has been ignored, overlooked, or abandoned.

[00:17:56]>> Amen.

[00:17:57]>> Negligence [clears throat] is not the same as oh, we're we're just not properly structured and organized yet, so therefore we're struggling to support the ministers. No, here was a situation where and I know this because I've studied this history.

[00:18:10]The colored ministers were literally being neglected. They were not being supported.

[00:18:15]>> We can >> In other words, intentionally.

[00:18:17]>> We can call it for what it was, Justin.

[00:18:18]It was racism.

[00:18:20]>> Yes. And I can And I can stand on that because you can you can Listen, don't get me started. Do not get me started.

[00:18:26]If [laughter] you If you go to What's that little book called? The Southern Work.

[00:18:31]>> Yes.

[00:18:31]>> You will see Ellen White constantly fighting and trying to get the leadership, you have to support the colored ministers. You have to support our brethren so they can reach their And it was not happening. And so in the context of this letter, here is someone who's trying to do the work there. There are people who are like, "Listen, we see ministers in the Southern field, whether they're white or black, they're being neglected." Neglected means that's intentional.

[00:18:56]>> Yeah.

[00:18:57]>> This is that that's not a mistake.

[00:18:58]That's not a lack of resources. That's not a lack of organization. They were intentionally ignoring that field. Therefore, because circumstances alter cases, people were like, "You know what? I'm going to take my tithe since my leadership is not going to properly support these ministers and their families, I am moved to send my tithe that way. And they said, you know what? Let me give it to Sister White.

[00:19:27]Cuz and and they told her, if you don't do it, we're going to do it. And she said, you know what? Let me go ahead and do that for you. Here's a receipt. She doesn't correct them. She doesn't rebuke them. She says, I will go ahead and assist because circumstances alter cases.

[00:19:40]>> So, I agree in that there's a there's an ideal that we all should want, and no one should be trying to break that apart. But when circumstances alter cases, when there's a situation where unfortunately administration leaders are not cooperating with God's ideal, >> Mhm.

[00:19:59]>> then we the laity, what are we supposed to do? Should we stand by and see fields neglected?

[00:20:05]>> Mhm.

[00:20:06]>> People go unsupported? God's work be be laid aside?

[00:20:11]>> Mhm.

[00:20:11]>> Or is it possible that that the Holy Spirit would impress an individual not to publicize it and get on YouTube and tell everyone we should do the same thing that I'm doing, but can the Holy Spirit move an individual and say, listen, send God's money to the work over here because of the negligence or the abandonment of that work or whatever the case may be. And so, I just wanted to point that out really quick because I noticed and I will go back and read the video I will watch the video and if he did say it, then forgive me, I repent, I don't want to falsely accuse. But it seemed to me and I think you guys saw it, too. He did not read the the paragraph six. And then we need to make sure we understand when she uses the word neglected, >> Mhm.

[00:20:56]>> that's not simply an organizational uh um failure or a lack of resources. That means intentionally abandoned, overlooked, or ignored.

[00:21:07]>> Yeah, that's right.

[00:21:08]>> Well, uh go >> ahead Pastor Myron. I I have some thoughts on this because I've been studying this subject, so I'm very interested to hear.

[00:21:15]Go ahead.

[00:21:17]>> yeah, the biggest thing I took from there is that was It wasn't neglected and this organization disorganization are not the same thing.

[00:21:29]>> Right.

[00:21:29]>> They were being neglected and I agree with you guys that the foundation for that was racism.

[00:21:35]Um and a different thing had to be done.

[00:21:38]Get perfect Justin, perfect. You know, before I go, I want to make a statement.

[00:21:44]So, cuz so many times we say things here it gets twisted and they take a little piece. I just dealt with that recently.

[00:21:50]Take a little piece of a conversation, blew it up and made it into something it's not.

[00:21:55]So, the first statement I have is there are many faithful ministers doing the gospel work indeed inside and outside the regular lines.

[00:22:04]In the Watson letter, Ellen White affirms and makes it clear that it was the same in her day.

[00:22:10]So, what is it for us? What what what must me we do?

[00:22:13]Well, simple, biblical and spirit of prophecy inspired solution.

[00:22:17]Quietly, prayerfully, present it before God where he wants what you have been trusted with to go.

[00:22:26]No one else needs to be consulted or made aware of where you sent it.

[00:22:31]If we take emotion out of the equation, God will guide us what he wants us to do with the tithe money.

[00:22:38]The tithe is sacred and must be returned. This is non-negotiable.

[00:22:44]But, where is a different thing altogether. Using the basic biblical principles of what it's meant for, the gospel work, not a false gospel, and there's a lot of false gospels going on even within our denomination, correct?

[00:22:58]>> Mhm.

[00:22:58]>> Yeah.

[00:22:59]>> If you if you your tithe is supporting La Sierra right now. They are a false gospel affirming people in their sin and leading them to destruction.

[00:23:08]>> Mhm.

[00:23:09]>> If God is humbly consulted, he will show you where. It may be the conference, but it may be some other neglected and needed gospel presenting ministry.

[00:23:23]>> Mhm.

[00:23:25]>> Now, uh you know, James, I'll I'll hold off on you for the other thing cuz I want I I went in last night, listen this, and I went to the 7th-day Adventist statement, our official statement, right, on tithe and stewardship, and then I went into the official statement made by a few men in 2012 in executive committee.

[00:23:47]>> Mhm. Mhm. Oh, boy.

[00:23:48]>> And juxtapose things there, and there's some there's some things there that we need to understand, but we don't have to get to that right now, but I want to give an example. I'm going to use a personal example here, and I think it We're going to look at the conference I'm in. I'll leave the name out. Most people can look it up. They can find it for themselves. The conference where I'm at.

[00:24:09]Actually, my membership is in another conference now, but I live in this conference.

[00:24:14]At their last constituency meeting, they took and this is open. They put it right there for all the constituents to see that they were going to send $1 million of >> Mhm.

[00:24:26]>> of tithe money to the general conference and trade it for $1 million of non-tithe funds.

[00:24:34]>> Mhm.

[00:24:34]>> This is holy money laundering.

[00:24:37]Wait, repeat, repeat.

[00:24:38]>> I I remember that. This was in a public video.

[00:24:41]And they came out and actually said this, and they said there was no violation of this practice altogether.

[00:24:48]>> It's in the paperwork. It's in what every constituent was it was handed. So, there's no denying it. What they did is took $1 million of >> Yep.

[00:24:57]>> worth of this conference's tithe money where faithful people paid their tithe into this conference expecting it to go to the gospel work, right? Isn't that where we're supposed to go?

[00:25:07]They took it, sent it to the general conference and traded it for $1 worth of non-tithe money.

[00:25:15]>> Yep.

[00:25:16]And that was a violation of the policies that they themselves have written.

[00:25:20]>> of the policies that they themselves have written.

[00:25:23]>> Right. So, what do you expect when you are a tithe payer to this conference?

[00:25:28]You're expecting it to go to the gospel work. By the way, at the same time, remember I'm in this conference. I know in-depth details what's going on. There were many churches that were did not have pastors.

[00:25:41]>> Mhm.

[00:25:42]>> Isn't tithe money supposed to be used to put pastors in churches?

[00:25:46]Why are you sending it to get non-tithe money to fund a special project and not using the tithe money that the people expected and put pastors in churches?

[00:25:57]>> Mhm.

[00:25:59]>> So, when someone sees that, how can they in their right mind send tithe money to that knowing that it may not go to the gospel work, but funding a special project that you have no say over anything like that?

[00:26:13]>> Mhm.

[00:26:14]Mercy.

[00:26:14]>> Mhm. Come on, man. Come on.

[00:26:17]>> You know, um Shh. Thank you for that. There is a material here that I would like to make reference to in a second. It's a book that I'm going to To better understand this tithe system, not just from a perspective of a, you know, And the author he was quoting from was one of Ellen White's grandsons.

[00:26:34]So, and again, he wasn't really He wasn't reading directly from the letter itself. He was quoting another man's thoughts generally. So, so you So you guys know.

[00:26:47]Uh There is a book. I have it here here my hand. You need to get this. And I remember the last LCI we had the Standish booth there.

[00:26:58]And I picked this up.

[00:27:00]One of the best decisions I've made.

[00:27:04]I went and I'm studying this and I've been I've been studying in the Bible myself cuz I've been studying in Torah scripture and I'm studying and I'm studying it.

[00:27:11]And the Collins Standish booth, tithe a book, Tithe and Offerings Trampling the Conscience by the Standish brothers, I will highly recommend that.

[00:27:22]Because the history you just talked about uh what am I Pastor Myron is in here.

[00:27:27]>> Okay.

[00:27:28]>> I will I will recommend. And there is a study that I had done. All I will challenge anybody to do this study. And I had to do it. I mean take in mind, you know, we we work with conferences. We're not an entire organization here. We want to make it clear.

[00:27:40]>> No.

[00:27:41]>> This is this is not some offshoot movement, okay? My family worship at a local church. Our children go to to a 7th-day Adventist schools. This is not But understand this.

[00:27:50]Ask yourself this one question.

[00:27:52]Is the conference the only storehouse according to scripture?

[00:27:56]That's the question I asked myself 6 months ago.

[00:27:59]And I said I'm going to take my Bible, right? And I'm going to search for it.

[00:28:04]And I'm going to see what the Bible actually teaches.

[00:28:08]Brother, I'm telling you when you just use your Bible, before you even touch Ellen White Spirit of Prophecy, okay? Just use your Bible and ask yourself, is the conference the only storehouse according to the word of God?

[00:28:20]Watch what happens. So, here is a quick um You can see the screen, right? We're not going to go through the whole thing, right? So, I ask this question, what is the storehouse according to the Bible?

[00:28:33]And I'm asking question and I'm getting answers.

[00:28:35]What was God's purpose for establishing the tithe system? Nobody disagrees with that. All of us will say, "Yo, of course, the Levites. God needed to take care of them. They had no land.

[00:28:44]Therefore, God established a tithe system to take care of that." but they also the Levites were responsible for taking care of the people that were under their control leadership as well.

[00:28:53]So, we nobody's going to argue against that.

[00:28:56]None of us is going to say that. And we're not saying who we holding tithe is a good thing. Nobody's saying that.

[00:29:01]And then you have all these verses to prove it.

[00:29:05]And then I asked the question, why did the Levites first bring their tithe?

[00:29:10]We find that and this is where it begins to open up. I found that 48 Levitical cities that were scattered throughout Israel.

[00:29:20]Did people know that?

[00:29:21]It wasn't just one building. There were 48 different Levitical cities.

[00:29:26]Depending on where Israel was, it will multiply and sometime it will be less.

[00:29:31]Yes.

[00:29:32]And here are your Bible verses. And I kept look I kept looking what was stored in these local video you know video video Levitical storehouses.

[00:29:41]Many things. We had the fruit in your land, the possessions. So, it wasn't just money and today we use money. People would bring their resources. They would bring what what whatever that was in their land, their potatoes, their tomatoes. It would be a place where they can be meat in my house. And that would be used both for the Levites and the people, the poor and the needy, the ministry that needed needed to be used for.

[00:30:01]So, Bible verses.

[00:30:03]Look at that. Grain, wine, oil, produce, animals, and other animals, stuff like that. It's good to study this throughout the Old Testament because that's where you can really get the understanding.

[00:30:12]So, what did the Levites do with the portion of that? They would receive it for Is it for themselves?

[00:30:16]They would also give it to the children of Israel, the people who had need of it.

[00:30:19]So, they give the tithe to the priests and to the temple as well. You find that. So, even though they received it, they themselves would share it with the the the temple. They themselves So, they paid tithe of the tithe that they were receiving because they were still part of a larger temple. So, it's kind of keep good to keep that in mind.

[00:30:37]So, what was the central storehouse in Jerusalem?

[00:30:40]The central storehouse, look at this. In Nehemiah's time, look at the word.

[00:30:45]The rooms in the storehouse. Did anybody know that?

[00:30:49]There were rooms inside of the storehouse, and this was multiplied for different purposes. Now, we can say, "Yeah, that's administrative work. That could be for different, you know, this goes to this ministry, that ministry, that ministry." I wouldn't disagree with you, but what you do see clearly, there were storehouses within the storehouse.

[00:31:05]Um chambers in the temples where the tithe also was also kept. And Malachi also talks about the storehouse as being Jerusalem. Of course, there's no doubt about that. So, bring all the tithes into the storehouse that there may be meat in my house, food in my house. So, anyway, this is another study. I have done this a while ago.

[00:31:24]And all I'm telling you is take the time to study this from the Bible alone before you go to anybody else. Something else interesting is going to happen to you. And you're going to see very clearly in the scripture, there were many storehouses, and they were used for different purposes. It wasn't just one location. Now, here's another interesting thing that I also found. I begin to study about the priests and the prophets.

[00:31:47]And I I looked at their ministries, and I tried to parallel what the priests were doing, how they were assigned to work, and also how the prophets were assigned to work. And I begin to also realize tithe workplace was also paid to the priest and the Levitical priesthood, no doubt. But I also find that the prophets were also receiving tithe.

[00:32:07]And you know what was interesting? The prophets were sometime in direct opposition to the priesthood. There were times they worked together depending on what kind of apostasy was going on, uh what kind of issues was going on. And when the people were good and the kings were obedient, then the priests and the prophets perfectly worked together. You have the story of Samuel and the king and everything like that. But when there was open apostasy, sometimes the prophets were sent in direct opposition to that. But there were times that the prophet themselves were to continue to do a work outside of the structure that was directly in opposition to the priesthood.

[00:32:41]>> Mhm. Mhm.

[00:32:42]>> So, you have what you call today supportive ministries. Yes, that's what you got.

[00:32:47]And that's what we're just talking about. When you see the institution is doing all of this stuff and you look at it and you say, "Well, it's wrong. It's not supposed to be happening." And then you you you want to compel members to keep paying into that as it is happening when there is no effort to correct the mistakes of the leaders. You know, my friend Dr. Vine sent me yesterday and I want to I want to read what he says.

[00:33:09]You know, I he doesn't mind being quoted because he wants to come on to talk about this anyway.

[00:33:13]We had planned to talk and this is what he says.

[00:33:16]If we were to follow Pastor Mark Howard's logic, we should be we should all be continuing to return tithe to the Roman Catholic Church system.

[00:33:30]For tithe apparently must flow regardless regardless of apostasy.

[00:33:36]I said, "Oh, shh. Yeah."

[00:33:39]You get it?

[00:33:40]So, if apostasy is not a good enough excuse to relocate the tithe, therefore the Protestant Reformation was wrong.

[00:33:53]They should all go back to Rome.

[00:33:55]>> [laughter] >> Go back to your mother church. It doesn't matter the apostasy. Do you see how crazy this could get? So, so [clears throat] I would recommend I would recommend reading the book Tithe and Offering.

[00:34:08]And again, this is this is the this is where Ellen White speaks about this and here it is.

[00:34:13]It's read page Oh, boy. Yeah, this is not letting me see it. This is read page 70 76 in that book.

[00:34:25]And you're going to see something very quickly cuz you talk about the Watson letters, that's just one.

[00:34:29]Uh Uh, in page There it is right there.

[00:34:32]79 Spirit of Prophecy Council on tithe and financial support of self-supporting ministries.

[00:34:39]He gave here, the Standish brother gave about 15 examples.

[00:34:45]15, 1 5.

[00:34:47]Of Ellen White relocating the tithe to a different ministry. She spoke about to help neglect ministers.

[00:34:55]You will find that the in the Watson letters, to help the aged ministers, she will she also moved the tithe to a different location.

[00:35:03]She also did it to help conferences supported by and Bible workers. Yes, that's another thing. It's in Spalding and Magan collection 117. There's also She also talked about the treasury Uh, how the treasury also can be reallocated depending on the circumstance. Talking about what Justin was making mention of. That is clearly mention mentioned by Ellen White. Uh, Ellen White uh, approve others will appropriate their tithe independently of the denominational channel. Yes, this is also in a Watson letter. Sister White accepted tithes from others for special appropriation.

[00:35:39]We just read that. Sister White sometime reluctantly accepted tithes. You know she don't not always she accept them with great joy. Sometimes she was very careful about that. Sister White appropriate funds for ministers families even when people were dissatisfied with organization.

[00:35:54]And we can keep going. Uh, there are several examples where she did this. Um, and she even accept tithes. I mean you see, tithe is to be supplied to men and women laboring in in the word and doctrine. So, I would have I would really encourage people to study this subject matter carefully. Don't just take conference words for it. I think I would respect this message a lot more if if Mark Howard or any conference leaders will come back and say, you know what?

[00:36:25]There has been some mistakes made.

[00:36:28]And we want to These are These are the things we're going to do to change it.

[00:36:31]We heard the cry of apostasy. People losing confidence. Circumstances have changed and things like that. People are returning their tithes to other places.

[00:36:38]And we want you to know that we we're going to do something about these issues. Because you try to win confidence, right? If people are concerned about something, do something about that something they're concerned about. Don't just tell them Don't If you don't return tithe here, it's almost like you're going to hell. You're in disobedience. You're not obeying God.

[00:36:57]It's almost this do or die, shut up and put up and pay up. That's really the message.

[00:37:01]And I'm like, wait a minute. You're not even going to address the issues that they're concerned about?

[00:37:06]You're not even going to put some guidelines in place to even give them Even if you're going to lie, even the politicians will lie about it, right?

[00:37:12]They will tell you say Listen, we're going to do A, B, and C. And you know you know they're not going to do it, but at least they say something. People can say, "Okay, at least they said they're going to do something. They're going to try."

[00:37:22]The leaders are not even saying anything about what they what people are concerned about. They're not doing anything about it. And they're not even showing some of the criterions they're putting in place to even address these concerns. So, people are losing confidence in things. Why don't you try to win those confidence back? Don't try to win what's in their pocket. Try to win their hearts. So, if you win their hearts, they will naturally support you.

[00:37:43]But now what we have is like you're going to hell unless you do this, right?

[00:37:46]If you don't do what we say, you're going to hell. Guys, that's not the solution. Because people are going to continue to lose confidence because the apostasy is real. And people are also being made convicted to support other ministries. That is That is something between them and their God. And if you try to twist the arms of the members to do or die, you know what they're going to do? They're eventually going to push back against it. So, that's my final thought on that. We can do things much better than this.

[00:38:11]>> James, you know, he brought up a point.

[00:38:13]He brought up the story of Nehemiah, right?

[00:38:16]Uh cuz the people cuz of the corruption the people had stopped re- returning the tithe. You see this in uh Nehemiah 13.

[00:38:23]Okay?

[00:38:24]When Nehemiah realized what was happening, he did two things, and this is just going to back up what he said.

[00:38:29]First, he condemned the decision of the people, rebuking not returning tithes, right? You cannot not return tithe.

[00:38:38]And second, he initiated a reform among the priests and Levites leadership. They never seem to want this. This is what they are doing currently. They're not initiating reforms that have caused the people just to have the the mindset that I don't want to send tithe there.

[00:38:55]They're just saying just send the tithe and nothing else. They need to initiate the reforms. They need to go out and deal with Loma Linda doing abortions in the the the hospitals, right? Deal with our medical system. They need to go out and say Loma Linda, there's going to be no special graduations for people that you're affirming in sin, right? They need to go out and say, "Hey, you know, maybe we should not have this relationship with the UN." And if they were to deal with these things, the people's confidence will be restored in the system and the tithe will start coming back in there. Instead of diverting it to something that clearly is gospel work being done.

[00:39:39]>> Amen. This is Dr. Kendra Lee.

[00:39:43]>> No, I was going to say, you know, you're getting back to conscience.

[00:39:47]Right? People's conscience conscious choice.

[00:39:51]And if someone is praying to God and and asks, you know, "I'm not happy here or I see this happening, but I would like to support this and you are the Holy Spirit convicts you, who are we?

[00:40:06]But I like how Justin said, you keep it quiet. You don't Or I think um Pastor Milam, you don't broadcast it. You just do what you got to do. I remember a friend of mine years ago, you know, she and her husband decided they were going to divert their tithe and give it directly to the church they were attending rather than send it to the conference.

[00:40:28]That was their choice. They prayed about it.

[00:40:32]They talked about it. I guess they I don't know. I didn't ask whether you started about it. But that's what they decided to do.

[00:40:38]Who am I? That's not my, you know, I'm not the one that's their judge.

[00:40:43]God is their judge.

[00:40:45]And everyone has a motive and I think it was brought out earlier where some people use it like a weapon. I'm not going to give you my tithe. Oh, whatever. It's not yours anyway. The 10% does not belong to you. It belongs to God. I don't even like to say pay tithe.

[00:41:01]I like the word return it. It's not yours, right? It's not yours from the get-go. But if you have sincerely gone to God and asked for guidance and direction and you feel compelled to convicted to send it, but then if you also feel that you're sending it, you may not agree with everything that's happening in your conference, but that's where you continue to send it, God's going to bless you for being faithful.

[00:41:28]>> Amen.

[00:41:29]>> Right? And that's what the whole point is. It's about being faithful. Now, if they choose to use the money and turn it into something else or send it and invest in things that we have no business investing in cuz I'm seeing that through the years, too.

[00:41:44]>> Mhm.

[00:41:45]>> We have been faithful. God is going to honor our faithfulness. And those that have done wrong with it, they will be judged accordingly.

[00:41:54]>> Mhm.

[00:41:55]>> Amen. There you go.

[00:41:56]>> Amen.

[00:41:57]>> Well said.

[00:41:57]>> with that.

[00:41:58]>> Katarina, sister Katarina, I'm giving you the final thought on this one.

[00:42:02]What stands out to you listening to this? I'm you get some controversial over here. We we don't sugarcoat from from the controversies here.

[00:42:09]>> [laughter] >> Get thrown right in.

[00:42:13]>> I agree with what everybody has said. Um just I'm digesting it all. Um Yeah, I mean I I think what you said sister is really important, too. It's like as long as we're being faithful and I'm not negle- like denoting everything else I have said, but I I believe as long as we're being faithful in our hearts that God sees that. It just has been into his mind.

[00:42:37]>> [clears throat] >> But, you know, um I think that some of the things that these higher-ups, some of their decisions have not been in alignment with the Holy Spirit. Um so, therefore, I don't think we should neglect our other brothers who have been uh and uh uh so strongly persecuted for standing up for righteousness. Um and they should be taken care of as well by God's people. So, yeah, those those are my thoughts, mean we definitely need to return tithe. That that's a command.

[00:43:10]And um as far as where it goes, it it should it should be we should be earnestly seeking Holy Spirit's guidance on where to put >> Amen.

[00:43:21]>> Amen.

[00:43:22]Can I >> [clears throat] >> May I add a thought to that and I really appreciate what you just said. Our families return tithe to the conference that we are part of. There's also another conference and I want to be very clear, the North New England Conference is a very faithful conference from my perspective and we I've decided earlier this week I'm returning tithe there as well. So, I support my local conference and I will support North New England Conference, but I also support some other self-supporting ministries that I'm also convinced that are doing a good work. So, I break things apart for me.

[00:43:54]This is not to say this is what you have to do. You have to follow your conscience and I'm still learning and growing as I'm going because sometime when I get paid, I look at the thing. I said, "Lord, what do you want me to do?"

[00:44:05]It shines It like the Lord will tell you at that very moment what to do. And I'm like, "Oh, we got to support so-and-so."

[00:44:12]I don't even tell them why I'm doing it.

[00:44:14]It just goes there.

[00:44:16]Um and there are ministers, there are conferences that I know that are doing a good work for our children. They're taking our children to missionary trip.

[00:44:24]We are working with some of their schools and some of their youth. And I'm telling you, some of these teachers and pastors, they are devoted. And I'm like, "Yeah, we're going to support you guys because we see the heart." Yeah, there's apostasy within, but we see some faithful God-fearing men and women in these conferences. We're going to stand with you as well. So, now if these conferences start doing things that are very much clearly apostasy and even the faithful men within are not addressing it, then I have a duty now to say, "Who else can be supported that are still faithful?" We're going to find them and that's where my conscience is going to follow. So, I'm letting you know, I'm not anti supporting conferences with my tithe. I don't actually believe that. I think just like sister Kendal Lee Puren said, this stuff is the Lord. It has to be returned to the Lord's coffin. There is no question about it. But as far as where our conscience is concerned, based on the conviction we have, when that money is in hand, when the Lord says, "Go and give it here and there and everywhere," that's between me and my God.

[00:45:24]And I'm going to obey him. If the Lord says, "Support, you know, Remnant [clears throat] Mission Society," well, that's what I'm going to do. Who cares how you feel about it? I'm just going to obey my God based on the conviction he lays on my heart that very week.

[00:45:41]And that's the way we're going to function. There is no twisting my arm that's going to change my conviction when it comes to that reality. That's where I stand.

[00:45:47]>> I like I like the way you keep that to yourself as well.

[00:45:49]>> Very much so. You You will never know.

[00:45:52]You will never know.

[00:45:53]>> Yeah, and God God may want you to support that thing, but another person, he may want them to support something else. So, we don't want us to be an undue influence on somebody. Oh, I'm giving it over here, so maybe they will.

[00:46:05]No, no, that messes up the plan God has, too.

[00:46:08]>> Yeah.

[00:46:10]I don't want to become someone else's standard. That's what you want to And And I just want to make one last point.

[00:46:16]You know, we've we actually have a legitimate history of church administrators, church leadership turning on their members.

[00:46:27]Um we have the case out in uh I think it was Germany where those who did not want to join the war were, if I'm not mistaken, literally disfellowshipped. Is that Is that correct?

[00:46:41]>> Yeah, and they didn't want to go to war, especially on the Sabbath, too. They were disfellowshipped.

[00:46:44]>> Right. I believe they were disfellowshipped.

[00:46:46]Um now, granted, you're disfellowshipped, so I guess you have no obligation to return tithe to the organization.

[00:46:52]But my point is there are legitimate his- there's history where, unfortunately, leadership has gone so far to the extreme that it it This is not a normal situation.

[00:47:05]The ideal has long been gone. You're in a situation where circumstances alter cases.

[00:47:14]And again, I just feel like, as God's people, we have to be intelligent and think for ourselves. And we have to go to God and say, "Lord, give me wisdom on how I need to go about this."

[00:47:28]What all we're saying is we recognize the ideal situation. I have nothing I have returned my tithe to my conference faithfully, and I'm happy to do so. I'm happy with And I'm not saying just because things goes left that I'm going to stop.

[00:47:42]But to sit here and to say without really any clear command from scripture or the spirit of prophecy that under no circumstance are we to never divert tithe from the regular channels of your local conference without an explicit statement saying that?

[00:48:04]At this point, you're just stretching and and you're just trying to prop up a position which we obviously know why.

[00:48:11]Um I was just thinking you made the point earlier, you know, it's interesting that we're addressing the issue of whether or not you should divert tithe, but you're not addressing addressing the issue why people are doing it in the first place.

[00:48:23]So, you know, in my mind I got two boys and soon in a few years they're going to be you know, school age and if I get a phone call from the school and they say, "Well, your son has been in a fight."

[00:48:33]Most likely it'll be CJ. But if your son is in a fight and and and you know, and I say that because CJ's will defend his brother. And you know, my son you know, hits a kid I'm going to ask for information. Well, what happened? I'm not going to immediately just say, "Let me go deal and punish or or discipline my child." I need to know the context. Why did he hit him? Come to find out a kid hit him first.

[00:49:00]And or maybe he pushed someone else down and my son was defending them. Now, is my son wrong? Nece- depending on the situation, all right, son, go to the teacher. Don't hit. I can address the error of my son. But guess what I'm about to go do? I'm about to go up to that school and have a conversation uh with the teacher, with the parents and say, "Hey, whereas my son should have done differently here, here's the reason why he's doing what he's done. Why Here's the reason why he's done what he did.

[00:49:28]We need to address that issue, that root issue, so that this doesn't happen again.

[00:49:33]Let's let's help my child not be in that position where he feels like he needs to hit. How about that?

[00:49:40]>> Mhm.

[00:49:40]>> And so then applying that to this situation, why are people redirecting their tithe? Again, there are there are individuals who are not genuine. They're working from selfishness. They're working from bitterness. And they're you that. I agree. I recognize that. But there are other people who are deeply disturbed >> Yep.

[00:49:58]>> at what leadership is doing.

[00:50:00]>> They all hurt.

[00:50:01]>> And they are hurt. And so they're like, "Listen, if you're not going to do what I believe the Lord has called us as a church to do, and I see others faithfully, sacrificially doing it, I can't in good conscience support someone who is working against God's cause, while others who are working in cooperation with the Lord are being neglected and are struggling. This is what they're This is their reasoning.

[00:50:29]Many people are reasoning that way. So, again, we're going to we're addressing a symptom and not the actual root cause.

[00:50:35]It's no different from the medical institution. We do We just We just symptom treating.

[00:50:39]>> [laughter] >> A drew address what brought it on in the first place, and this is why this conversation will never go anywhere because hey, "Why is Michigan losing tithe?" Does anyone want to know?

[00:50:52]>> [laughter] >> There you know, we got to talk about why in the first But no one wants to do that. And so, we're going to keep It doesn't matter how many sermons that come out like this, how many times you try to correct correct individuals, how about you address what's bothering them in the first place.

[00:51:08]>> Yep.

[00:51:09]James, can I say one thing last thing that I think is very important?

[00:51:12]>> Please. Please, go ahead. And then we're going to have a word of prayer after that one. Mhm.

[00:51:15]>> If you are a gospel worker or a ministry, do not solicit tithe.

[00:51:23]>> Mhm.

[00:51:24]>> Have [clears throat] faith.

[00:51:26]Let God do his work. He will speak to hearts, and what is needed for your ministry, if you're in the right direction, what we're talking about here, it will happen.

[00:51:38]>> Amen.

[00:51:38]>> No need for you to overstep faith and solicit the tithe money. Don't. That That shows you're you're you're kind of worried. You're faithless. You're the money's not going to come in. Just don't solicit it. Let the guy let God do his work and that's that's just the last thing I would say on it.

[00:52:03]>> [music]