A common logical flaw in cosmological arguments for God's existence is the infinite regress problem: if everything requires a cause, then God must also have a cause, which contradicts the definition of God as an uncaused being. This creates a logical inconsistency in the argument that the universe requires a creator, as the same reasoning would apply to the creator itself.
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What is Your Best Evidence for Your God? | Join for a Debate
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[music] >> [music] >> I [music] feel >> [music] >> Okay people, I'm going to end the shitty music [sighs] and yeah, welcome everybody.
I hope we can have a better day than the other.
So we have Kashal. I hope we can start so fast today.
Let's see. Hey Kashal, welcome.
>> Thank you.
>> Are you Kushal?
>> Okay, there's some audio problem I think.
SH, do you hear me?
Okay, we have problem with Koshal sound check. I believe I'm audible at least here on free for talk. Let me check YouTube sound check. Okay, YouTube also that's what I checked. Hey, Phantom.
Welcome.
You let me fix the problem. Okay.
But yeah, I may not be waiting for you that long. You should know that people. Yeah.
Today I don't have subtopics here but sure all of them are included you know the ignorance of God reality and other subtopics that we're using here. They're all available because they're all about God's existence.
Yep.
I hope we can have good believers today.
Also, yesterday was really enjoyable for me.
Every day is not the same day.
It can be worse. It can be better. We don't know. But let's see.
uh mostly I'm expecting active chats at weekend but yesterday as you know it was not weekend but we had probably the most active chat um among all streams that we had.
Okay, I see other people Alli user Regav uh Shenchan.
So if you guys are believers, please raise your hand and uh please read the welcome message before doing that.
So Superman is first and Cali, I see you. Welcome.
So Superman, my favorite example.
Okay, man. I hope that hand was not for high.
It should be for the mic.
Okay, Superman is not speaking.
[laughter] Superman might be real.
But let's wait for the laser beams people.
Then >> we can decide. Hey Superman, welcome.
>> How are you, man? Fine.
>> I'm okay. How about you?
>> I am fantastic. Great.
>> And I hope you are a believer.
>> Yes, I am.
>> Okay. And uh your age is above 18.
>> 25.
>> Okay. That's over 18.
So we're live on YouTube. That's why I'm asking it. It may sound weird to people when I ask, "Hey, are you Botheian or not?" So, yeah. I mean, >> I believe what in God?
>> Do I believe in God? No.
And that's what I exactly discuss here.
>> So, you're wanting us to prove you that God or what?
>> Uh, no. Uh, I want to prove that people have really bad evidence to believe in God.
Yeah.
>> So, you're a s follower, right?
>> Your audio is a little bit muffled. Are you using some Bluetooth headphones?
>> Yeah, I'm using headphones.
>> Okay. But is it Bluetooth headphones?
>> No, it's a wire.
>> No, >> wire headset.
>> Okay. Anyway, I think you made it a little bit better. Um, by making it closer to your mouth. Okay, that might work for me. So, which guy you believe in, Superman?
>> I believe in Allah.
>> Oh, that's great. Muslim brother. Okay, [clears throat] cool. I like it. Uh, so what makes you believe that Allah is real?
Uh well I believe in God and when you believe in God so you go out for a search that which god is real. Okay.
>> You believe in god then you search for the god. Okay. And >> yes and when I search about the god Allah is the real god because uh any other religion god you see there.
So I believe that no one can be God that lives on earth like humans.
No one wants anyone that lives in any god, anyone that lives on earth like humans like he was, he marries, he gave birth and he dies, it can be God. We cannot exam give the example of God like humans.
>> Okay.
>> Not able to understand.
So can can can we just repeat the question one more time? I mean what makes you believe Allah is real was my question.
>> Okay. Yes. I'm telling you.
>> Okay.
>> Because when I searched all the religions like you see uh Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Muslim.
>> Mhm. So all the definition that is available in those religions according to God these all gods except Islam are someone who lived on earth before like humans.
Jesus Christ and Bhagwans and Ram and Buddhism they all lived on earth like humans they got birth they died they married.
>> Okay. But but my friend, you're making a logical mistake here.
Because other people's gods don't make sense, that doesn't mean your god is real.
>> No, it makes sense because there is definition of god.
>> Okay, there's definition of superman also. Now I'm so happy to give this example because his name is Superman here. [laughter] So a character like >> so but yeah I can define the superman also but it doesn't mean it's real >> it's just a character but a god no one can be a god like it lives on earth like humans like you and me it cannot be god >> uh >> if you find the real >> okay what what can be god what can be god is also something that we can sure imagine but It doesn't make it you know true like what can be superman we can define what can be superman and what cannot be superman for example I cannot be a superman right >> uh like I'm telling you like Jesus Christ >> I don't understand >> Jesus Christ >> was a superman for you >> because he he have very extraordinary powers >> that's what you That's what you believe.
>> Yes.
>> He's a prophet, messenger, and also a super like no one else is like on earth like him.
>> Okay. But that that's another belief uh you have Superman.
>> So, and that doesn't mean this is true also. But one more time, because you are able to define what God is, that doesn't mean God is real.
Uh what do you hear? I just that there is no definition of God. There is no >> I didn't say that there's no definition of God. I didn't say that. There are a lot of definitions of God. You should know that.
But that doesn't mean any of them are real.
>> Yes, it is a separate question that God is real or not. But the main thing is that there is a supreme being in this universe.
>> Uh what's your evidence for that?
>> Because science believes that there is a supreme being and there is a supreme being for this physical.
>> Science doesn't believe in that. Don't don't lie about science. No, science doesn't have any beliefs.
>> Science denies the god.
>> That doesn't mean science believes in a god.
But even science if uh you look at the most uh successful scientist like uh Einste just few scientists they don't believe in God but many >> there are many scientists there are many scientists they don't believe in God superman and I I will take your mind because you started spreading false information here that's not nice but one more time if I can define what is a superman man. That doesn't make Superman real. If you can define what God is, that doesn't mean God is real. Just compare these two examples and maybe you can understand. But anyway, uh you you could still have the mic if you didn't start saying a lot of false things about science. So, we have uh how to pronunciate this name, Sebec.
Uh, Sebeek.
>> Sebeek. Okay. Welcome, Sebek. Um, let me ask you, you're a Christian.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> So, the question is whether you believe in God or not.
>> Now, we already learned, do you believe in the Christian God?
>> No, I didn't say I believe in Christian God. Okay.
>> Oh, sorry. My bad. My bad. So, which God you believe in?
>> I'm a Hindu. Uh but I believe in all three gods.
>> You believe in all three gods. Okay. Can you name name?
>> Can you name them?
>> Name.
>> Yep.
>> Okay.
Uh these are the gods I know uh that near to me. That's that's why I'm saying three gods. I mean three religions like Christian, Muslim and Hindu. If I was the uh Buddhist or somewhere else like yeah I'll be that also.
>> Wait wait wait wait. So it's not whether the god is exist or not. So suppose I'm building some external power. Okay.
>> Some external power. I'm sorry I'm not here to talk about some external powers.
>> Okay.
>> Because the sun is also external power.
Black holes are exter external powers for me. So I don't want to talk about them.
>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it. It's not like power or something like superficial.
Okay. It's about like belief. Suppose you are doing something and you believe you will get something and that's because you believe in God. Okay.
>> Okay. But that doesn't mean there's a God.
>> Do you understand that?
>> There's no God. So you believe something and if the God helps you, if there's existence of God helps you to believe that then that's something you know.
>> Oh, you don't care God exists or not. So it's you just care about like being a belief helpful for you. Okay, good.
>> So, okay, it's back. I think we're done >> because you don't care whether God is is real out there or not. Um, >> yeah.
>> Okay, no problem.
>> So, last person, Koshal, if you don't want to speak, I'll take someone else.
You're about to get the mic and you just raise down your hand. That's weird.
But anyway, Kosal, if you decide to speak, then we can try. But now we have someone from Streamyard.
I see you. Mechanical Living.
So, let's try with you one more time.
>> Hey, man. What's up? How's life?
>> Life is with ups and downs.
>> Yeah.
So um today I have a really cool evidence about uh God. Okay. So >> about God.
>> The evidence is uh that there is something right. Uh let's let's start with zero. All right.
First we accept that there is something rather than nothing. Right? there there's a feeling of experience right now. Okay. But but there but information is divided into two uh categories. The first is linguistic data. Something that you can name right. Uh you have a linguistic data yourself. You have a name philosopher. Uh your name is Phil.
Uh >> he named things. Okay.
>> Yeah. So God similarly has two appearance like like it exist on on two layers. First of all on the name side uh there can be many different names you know uh the Muslims call it Allah the Hindus call it Krishna uh >> okay mechanical I will cut you here you know that we have names for >> like these kind of things wait I didn't even give the name wait >> for example we have the name of unicorn don't forget that Okay, put this into your pocket and and proceed. Go on.
>> Okay, unicorn does exist on some metaphysical space. I don't mean but >> metaphysical space. What does that mean?
What does that mean?
>> In in a space where it's it's uh communicatable to you, right? We we in a space you and I >> in in the linguistic space. This this this language this this language is not going to help us mechanical living. So let's say that yeah those names exist in our minds.
>> Yeah.
>> Does it sound bad for you?
>> Exist. Yeah. The names exist in our mind but they are not true reality of things.
You get me right?
>> They're not true reality. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Because you have a name inside your mind, that doesn't mean that name matches with something with outside of your mind.
>> I accept.
>> Very good. Very good. Very good. Okay.
Very good. Good.
>> So, so we have two uh we we know thing exist on two re layers of reality. First is linguistic reality or linguistic that that that is expressible that is communicable and the second is which is the ineffable, the the living, the present yet unnameable.
For example, this experience right now is unnameable right now.
>> Uh which experience >> of you being inside your body is is beyond words. You you >> no need to mention that. We're talking about God. We don't need to mention that. Okay. So, and what's your point?
Hey Phil, Phil, you want to connect your living experience with the lived experience of uh what you call God. You want to connect >> I don't understand what what what you mean but yeah I want to see your argument ma'am.
>> Yeah. So the argument is there's there's something about you that's verb like like something inside you is doing. Right. Sounded like mind.
You mean mind?
>> The mind is the mind is calculating the next uh reply response. All right. Your your ear is listening to my voice while your mouth is >> our mind is working. Okay. Don't don't create a lot of word salad, man. Our mind is working. Simple. Make it simple.
I'm going to change this the name of my [ __ ] channel as simple. Okay. Bill, there's a reason why I'm breaking it.
Because you don't >> You're not breaking it. You're making things complicated. Okay. Simple. Mind is working. Please proceed.
>> I am the one who's breaking it. You see, >> just proceed.
>> When you when you use the word mind is using it, you you've already unified many different ways of uh like >> mind is working. Please proceed.
>> Yeah. So there's this unconscious verb happening through your body. Yet all of this is expressible on a different layer just by using words that has nothing to do with those organs.
Right? For example, >> I don't know what you're saying.
>> Come on, man. I can talk about >> Okay. Okay. Stop. Stop that shitty language. Please use simple phrases, simple words. Okay.
>> All right. All right. Okay. I >> Okay.
>> Don't try to hide behind those word salad. Please don't do that. Okay.
>> Okay. Okay. Uh imagine you have a pen in your hand. All right.
>> Yeah. That that's a good one. That's a good start. Okay.
>> Okay. And I ask you to write something in your book.
>> Okay. Very good. We're going so good.
During the act of writing something in your book, I want to ask you a simple question. Is the pen outside your embodied act or is it inside your embodied act?
>> And now now you you started [ __ ] >> So make that that phrase simple. I'm writing down something and that was so cool so far.
>> Yeah. So when you're writing it, I want to ask you about the pen. Okay. Yeah.
>> Is the pen outside you or is it inside you?
>> Okay. We observe that it's outside of us.
>> Yeah.
Of course the if you if you think about the act of course these are two different objects right doing the work.
Of course, your hand is a different object connected to your body and a pen is an is an object outside you and there's a separation between it. But >> yeah, observe it separately. Yeah. And >> but when we think about the act which is you writing it.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. When we think about the act of you writing the stuff on the book, the pen is inside that act.
The pen is inside that act. It's sure inside the narration of the the explanation of the the action of writing. Yes, you're writing with a pen.
Listen to me. We are writing with a pen.
With a pen. So, okay, that's simple. And >> but see you you got only the first half right. You are writing with a pen and you're writing through the pen.
>> Through the with the pen.
>> No, no, it's it's not the same things, you know.
>> Oh, it's not the same thing.
>> Yeah, it's it's not it's not the same thing.
>> Okay. I I think now now you are cheaply trying to implement something else which is not justified here. What do you mean by true the pen?
>> All right. All right. Let's say we do have the pen. All right. But we the ink is not in there in the pen. Okay. So even even if we have the pen with the pen, we can't make the words appear through the pen.
>> There's no [ __ ] ink.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Why the hell why the hell we're speaking about this now? Can you make a connection?
>> Yeah. See, you know a thing only when it stops working. For example, >> no. False. False. We know that we can write without the ink stops.
>> No, >> no, no, no. You cannot understand that you're writing if the ink doesn't stops.
>> Okay. Imagine imagine you have the same page in your on your laptop. All right.
It's open on your laptop. All right. and you're you're typing it now. Okay?
You're typing your book uh or or typing your text on the laptop and suddenly and suddenly when you're writing the laptop switches off. [snorts] >> Okay. Something something bad happens to the laptop.
>> Uhhuh. Yeah. And it is when the laptop stops acting like a like a a regular laptop that you realize that it's a laptop first and then the page that you saw.
>> Okay, that's so stupid to say such things, man. You realize it's a [ __ ] laptop when you're typing also. Even if you you don't type, you can realize what is a [ __ ] laptop. Okay, what you're saying doesn't make any sense at all.
It does make sense. See, when >> when you look at a laptop, even if you don't touch, you don't realize it's a laptop or not.
>> Bro, I'm I'm talking about >> answer this. Answer this. If you look at a laptop, even if you're not typing anything, can't you realize that it's a laptop or not? Yes, of course. So, then why the hell you're saying something so nonsense?
>> See, I'm I'm talking about the attention you put into it. All right. When the laptop is when the laptop is working fine, you don't care.
>> Okay. Stop.
>> Stop. Let's go to God. What's the connection between God and this this >> Yeah. So the >> useless example.
>> God is the ineffable. Okay. Okay. So >> defining what is God? Tell me how you prove this God is real.
>> Because you define who is God. That doesn't mean God is real.
Okay. Uh, okay. Do you believe that? Okay. Do you accept that we're living right now and this is real?
>> Something is real.
>> Something is real, right?
>> We Yeah. Go on.
>> Something is real. The same way uh the same way the way pen is inside and outside the act of writing. All right.
>> Okay. Now you're bullshitting.
>> No, >> now you're bullshitting. No, we didn't agree on many of those silly things that you you mentioned about being in in in in whatever place that you imagine. So we are writing with the pen or let's say let accept your phrase.
I don't want understand why you want to force that word through the pen. Okay.
We write through the other tools. Yes.
Not only pen also other tools. And and >> how come that means the god exists?
>> The god is the source of all living beings. This is >> Oh, really?
>> It's not even >> Where is that source? Where is that source?
>> Yeah. So, >> where is that source?
>> See, I share the source as well as you.
All right. When you're when you're improvising on the spot, you're using that source to uh you know, come up with the next word. We don't have a llm like uh feature inside our mind coming up with the next word. We we do it unconsciously and you know you can you can say that the brain does that it's it's it's it's a job but see the god is the realization that there's something objective in the >> god is a realization >> oh okay so you're saying that we realize something and that realization is called god >> yes god is a real >> god okay thanks for saving my time uh I don't want speak about our realizations and realization is enough to to name things, describe our actions. That's enough. No need to use the word God in this case. Take care. Bye-bye.
>> Bye, Phil. Enjoy.
>> Yep. Yep. I hope we can.
So, God is just a realization of ourselves doing something.
Yep.
So I I keep mentioning people I'm not interested in such kind of gods. If you think your ancestors, your parents, the sun, the moon, the universe, galaxies, black holes are god, I'm not into people because I'm not going to debate for their existence. We we believe, we know that they exist. No need to spend time to debate on those, you know, clear obvious things. Why we are wasting time for them?
Okay, I'm preparing the room. Yeah, people welcome everybody again. There's half an hour in and Hey, dear moderators, have you ever seen my night boat in the chat?
[laughter] Where is my night boat?
I couldn't see it.
It's not working.
I made some improvements, people. So, but yeah, we should check it more. Uh, and I will fix the other problems when we get I hope I can fix. So, yep. Thanks for the likes, people. And uh let's use some tickers here in case our nightboard is not working. Yeah, people if you have questions, if you want to highlight for some reasons, if you need the mic when it's busy, super chess memberships do the job.
Yeah, Nightbot is missing. Vog, have you seen the Nightbot in the chat?
>> I Nightbot popped up and said Nightbot is working. Oh, that that's what I did with the comments.
>> That's but just Yeah, it started up and I haven't seen it since. So, >> okay, that's bad.
Nightbolt. Nightboat.
Let me check one more time.
Timers. Oh, [ __ ] That's my [ __ ] bed.
They're turned off.
Ah, that's not nice. Okay.
And is there's no save button.
Okay. I just turned it on.
My bad.
I'm waiting for the timers. But um anyway, I want to cry.
So, we have Manoi Meli.
Hello, Manoi.
unblocked nightboat. No. Okay. Yeah, we are experimenting dart. I hope you guys will be patient about that.
Yeah, I will make some improvements. If it doesn't work properly, I will move on to others which are better. If there are better ones, I'll check search. I'm trying to help all moderators. You don't have to copy paste anything. Just tell me if you want to see something repeatedly in the chat. I can add it in the timers and I try to make them not frequent.
So, but let's see. Hey, Manoi.
Uh, oh, okay. Let's give the mic. Hello, Manoi. I hope you have seen the topic.
Manoi. Manoi. Manoi.
Okay, Menoi is ghosting us. We have Angel.
Let's see. Angel is ghosting us or not.
And we have Vicki RG.
Maybe Wiki RG.
>> Oh, it's Manoi.
Yeah. Hello, Manoi.
>> Yeah.
>> Hey. Uh, have you seen the topic?
>> Have you seen the topic? Yeah, bro. I just >> What? What?
>> I didn't.
>> Yeah. Have you seen the topic?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay. Good. Hello. Hello.
Oh, someone is calling you into your room. I mean into his room.
Hello.
>> Have you read the welcome message?
>> Hello Salam.
>> Okay. Bye-bye.
Uh, it's Salam. Let's see. Salam is speaking English better or not.
Hello Salam.
>> Hey.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's up?
>> Nothing too much. How about there?
It's all good, man.
>> All good.
>> Yeah. How is my English?
>> Uh, sounds better than Mano.
>> Uhhuh. If you like >> Do you want to continue my like guest?
>> Continue. You I mean depends. Uh I hope you have seen the welcome message. We have a very specific topic here. We're discussing >> God's existence.
>> Yeah, debating God's existence. I like yeah I did I did this kind of debate every every day man I got like >> you got bored >> let me let me say something sorry for interrupting so manoj bro join my room man >> he doesn't understand that you you typed it in the in the chat but man join his room man okay wiki hello >> hi philosopher >> hi Hi, how are you?
>> Thanks for thanks for welcoming. I'm good.
>> You're good.
>> Hope you are >> fine. What about you? You have seen the topic.
>> Yeah, God's existence. Do you believe in God? Yeah. So, um I believe in God, but uh you know, I don't um I don't uh uh believe without um anything, right? So I believe in God only when um when I uh so I I don't believe that God will do everything for me. So we need to take some steps so that the God that is you know if you believe in God it will excel our work.
>> Okay that's another belief but but we can go there but before that we have to at least analyze whether God is real or not.
Uh so so God has been created or formed by humans uh directly you know there is nothing like uh god has came in directly so it's it's some of us has created them or given the name that okay he's god he's god something like that so according to me um so earlier the belief in god was uh very high compared to nowadays Because you know if there is some mysteries around us um you know we believe in God for example if we don't know why sun is coming in the mo uh coming the morning and sets in the evening once the reality is out the science is out then it it becomes normal. So earlier we pray God we we think like a sun, moon, everything has been created by God or something but um as days progressed the science has evolved and uh every uh thing that surrounds us all the mysteries were solved. I I I don't say all the mysteries but um some of them were solved. Still there are some mysteries that u that are outside of human's mind or thinking. Um so as long as those mysteries are there uh God's existence or also will be trusted and believed.
Um so uh in my opinion so as for as long as the mysteries are existing both God and devil are existing. So once mysteries are solved then there is no one will be thinking about God or devil.
So they just purely believe science and move along.
>> Okay. I wish I was able to follow what you say.
So let let me start over. which god you believe in?
>> So um so in India right there are multiple gods. We we can't single out uh one particular god but for each of our community there is one god. So we pray uh uh that god. So as uh in my community we pray lord mura. So he is our community god. So what what h so in India it's it's a complex thing. So in India the Hinduism was formed um combining multiple local small religions. So in Hinduism only we have um more than 10 subdivisions. So each divisions they um pray a particular god.
So we can't single out you know under Hinduism that that >> okay you believe in >> Okay. You believe in many gods.
>> Yeah. Oh why why do you think that they are real?
So that's what as long as the mysteries are existing uh it's real but uh once it is mysteries are solved >> what m mystery m oh [ __ ] I cannot pronounce the word [laughter] >> yeah so mystery is uh in the the olden days right so um we we don't know why moon is a full moon every month and no moon on particular day >> you don't know that >> history so >> and that's a mystery for you.
>> Hey Vick, is that a mystery for you?
>> It's not a mystery anymore. But before >> forget about before, man. Like we are speaking about right now. Why you believe in a god right now? Why do you think God is real right now? You're not living in the past, right?
[laughter] >> Yeah. So I So this is there are two sides of coins. Sometimes I don't believe but sometimes, you know, if I'm down, there is something that needs to up my spirit. Oh, folks. So, I'm sorry.
Is Is that really what you're saying, Vicki? You're saying that we created God and God will exist only as long as we believe.
>> That's what you mean?
>> Oh, okay. So, then there's no need to talk, >> right? Right.
>> Thank you, V. Thank you, V. I was >> busy with the night.
>> Okay. Anyway, so I mean we are on the same page, man.
I also think we created the gods.
Oh, hey dude, you still want to talk to Manoj?
If that's the reason why you raise your hand, I'm not going to give you the mic.
But if you want to talk about the topic, then you can get the mic.
But first, you have to tell me you're a believer or not.
Yeah, I do believe that God is not existed.
>> You You don't believe God exist?
>> Yeah, I do believe that God is not existed.
>> God does not existed. So that means you don't believe a God exists.
>> What the >> Yeah.
>> Okay. Yeah. We don't need more atheists.
We have enough atheists here. So, we're going to get believers.
I hope.
Yeah, believers, please uh raise your hand or I'm I'm gonna give the mic. It's okay if you don't speak. We have Muhammad Hassan uh with a lovely name.
My favorite name, Muhammad.
So, Lost Whisperer maybe believer. Maria maybe Christian sister.
Okay. Manosh, I have some suspicions.
Uh, Lost Whisperer, Maria, Muhammad, we're waiting. We have Angel also.
Make me guest. No, I'm not going to make him guest.
I told you we need believers, not non-believers.
Hey, go create your own room, man.
You're a believer of what?
And why should I talk to a liar? You just said you don't believe God exists.
>> Now I changed my mind. [clears throat] [laughter] What's up with that?
He's a believer now.
>> No, now you can have the mic. [laughter] You have seen what happens.
So, oh, we have another Muhammad.
Let's wait for the other Muhammad.
Hello, Muhammad. Welcome. Shad Muhammad.
Maybe Shad Muhammad is a believer.
Nope.
Waiting for Shad Muhamad. Waiting for Shad Muhamad.
>> Hey, bro.
>> Hey. Hey.
>> Yo. How are you, bro?
>> I'm okay. How about you?
>> Having so good.
So, how is your day?
>> It's okay so far. How about yours?
It's good.
>> It's good. Okay. Cool. So, >> our topic is Hey, Muhammad. Our topic is not countries. Okay. Our topic is God's existence. If you want to talk about if you want to debate about God's existence, then we can. But if your purpose is just learning about countries, no.
>> Oh, bro. My English is not good.
>> Maybe next year. Okay.
Maybe.
>> Okay, take care. Have a good day.
So, V, what do you say? Should we refresh the room?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> We don't have played out.
>> Yeah, we don't have believers.
So, yeah, let's have a new room. Maybe we can have more believers.
Um, okay.
Let me create a limited room jumping.
Yeah, people.
Uh, we had some people so far. I hope we can have more.
We can have more.
believers.
Believers, believers.
Oh, believers, believers, believers, believers, believers. [singing] Oblivvers.
Okay. Namna Hagama. Can I call you Auntie?
That's going to make everything or Nam.
Oh, Auntie is okay. Thank you so much.
You have the mic.
You have the mic.
>> Hello.
>> Oh, Auntie, are you over 18?
>> Okay. If you're not getting the answer, immortable.
>> Auntie, you're audible. But do you understand me?
>> Yeah. Yeah, I can understand.
>> Okay. Your age is over 18.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, really?
Okay. So, you have read the welcome message. It tells about the topic and other things.
>> What?
>> Okay, that's not good. If you don't understand this question auntie maybe later >> question [snorts] >> then why why did you say what >> oh you are not able to clear me that's why I I asked you again >> okay am I clear too >> yeah she's got a lot of noise on her end though she's probably having trouble hearing you because of the noise that she's >> maybe maybe okay auntie let let's do this uh if you have a better environment where there's not too much noise and better internet. Maybe the reason why you don't hear me is the internet. So if you fix that, maybe we can try one more time. Okay.
So we have Omar. Omar is all Oh, it's Omar Muhammad. Yeah, that that's my favorite name. So it's it's this double favorite. Omar is there also. I think we said it's the fifth favorite name here. Maybe maybe fourth.
I'm not sure. I will make a list about that [snorts] soon.
So, Muhammad, you've obviously you're a Muslim.
I mean, if you say otherwise, that's going to be surprise for many people.
Yeah.
You want to speak up?
>> Yes, bro. I'm Muslim. So, hi everyone.
>> Hi. Only one.
So, Omar, quick check. Your age is over 18.
>> Exactly, bro. I'm 27.
>> Cool. Cool. So, we are asking because we're live on YouTube.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. We we don't want to have a problem with the parents of the people later on because they they might come across their kids on YouTube and they might complain about that >> and yeah I don't know maybe you can guess that I am an atheist or maybe not but if you're >> oh >> yeah I think you you're are 25 26 six. I don't know.
>> I didn't mean guessing my age. I said me being an atheist. I don't believe in God. You said you believe in God, but I don't believe in God.
>> Okay, this is your opinion.
>> Yeah, we debate about this and I don't think there's good evidence to believe in a God. And I want to know why you believe in a god.
>> So, who created you and who created the world? And uh okay, who created Allah?
Sounds sounds a good question.
Allah is the first um creator in the world.
>> Okay. Let's say Adam is the first human in the world. No one created Adam.
>> Yeah. Allah created Adam.
>> No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No one created Adam because he's the first human.
[gasps] >> No.
>> Yes. That's what I believe. Omar.
>> Allah created Adam.
>> Okay. Then without father and without mother like >> okay okay okay let me tell you then then uh fa created Allah there is a creator called fa >> and fa fa created you should learn because your Allah has a creator he was hiding it from you >> how can you explain something exists without a creator amar I didn't get you. Uh, what did you say?
>> Who created Allah?
>> FA is the creator of Allah.
>> No. Uh, Allah. Allah the first one.
Allah the first.
>> No. No. No. No. Okay. Then let me tell you the universe is the first thing to exist. No one created the universe. What do you think about this?
>> I told you before. I told you.
>> You told me what you believe. Yeah, >> but you didn't prove that Allah exists.
>> You ask a question which was false. Who created the universe? It's a false question. And now I'm saying who created Allah? You're saying no. No one created Allah. Okay, then you believe something can exist without a creator >> because the first one Allah Allah is not the first one. F is the first one.
Nothing nothing there is nothing far.
>> No is talking to me.
>> I'm the messenger of far is talking to me and and says that I created Allah and Allah became a liar. He said I'm the only God who exists. I created the universe. Yeah, that's true. He created the universe but he's not the only creator. He has he has a father and he's denying his his father.
>> So how do I know that? Because Fi is talking to me right now.
>> Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?
Stop playing.
>> Are you kidding me that you you believe that this universe has a creator? Are you kidding me?
>> Wait, wait, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You you are on live on YouTube, right?
>> Yeah.
>> So be serious. Be serious.
>> I'm serious, man. I I'm asking a question. Who created Allah? You have a creator with you?
>> I ask you a question. Who created Allah?
And you're saying no one created Allah?
I say okay, no problem. But if I say no one created the universe, why we have a problem? Maybe you should think on it a little bit. If you can say, hey, this exist without a creator. This one exists without a creator. Okay, you can believe in that. But if someone says, "Hey, wait, wait, wait, wait. There's no Allah there. There are no other other beings.
Uh the universe exists without the creator. Anyone can say that and you don't have any anything to say back. I mean, sure, you're saying a lot of things, but you don't have anything logical in your mind.
You can't say who created the universe because the universe is uncreated.
Anyway, probably we're not going to get well with Omar Muhammad.
Hello, Ysef.
Okay, Vicki remember how we ended.
>> Yeah. So, so I just have one uh thing that I have to mention. So, you guys were talking >> Adam and Eve. So um so Adam and Eve in my opinion was not the first uh >> first we don't need to hear that. I'm sorry. I mean I was not serious when I said Adam is the first human being. No I was not serious. Okay.
>> Yeah. So, so in my opinion ago from small insects or some some other creatures and slowly slowly uh transformed into different species for example dinosaur exist millions of years ago and u >> I'm going to change the room people >> um because he doesn't care.
Why should I care?
Okay.
Yep. Never chance.
Muhamads, they were boring today.
Muhammads are boring today.
And we have Optimus Prime.
Let's see. Optimus.
Hello OP.
>> Hello there.
>> Hello. How are you?
>> Fine. I I I find interesting topic.
>> Are you discussing about debating God?
>> Yeah, we are debating, man. Uh, but you should know that we're live on YouTube and you must be a believer who is over 18.
>> Okay, I am.
Okay, you are live.
>> I'm live on YouTube.
>> Sorry, I think I'm in wrong group.
>> You're in wrong group. Okay, it doesn't bite, man.
>> But anyway, no problem. You >> from where?
I'm from YouTube.
>> You're from YouTube? But I know but I think I'm not from India. So it doesn't bother me.
>> I'm not from India. Yeah.
>> Okay. Talking on religious issue in India is a crime. If you anyway anyhow.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay man.
>> Not a crime. It's not a crime. Means if some people caught you that you said any wrong word. By the way, uh you will be >> no by some online stupid guys like that.
So, >> okay, be careful, man. Then be careful.
So, we have uh Dam uh DM. Let's say DM.
We had Dyson and we have Suja.
Okay. Uh we had we can have some believers.
Some believers.
Some believers.
>> So whatever you believe on it, God exist.
>> I don't believe >> because you can prove it. Okay. You don't believe?
>> Yeah. I don't believe.
>> Why?
>> I don't see any good evidence. That's why.
>> Okay.
You means evidence is the basis of our certaintity about anything, right?
depends on the level of the certainty I think >> but yeah we have to confirm >> uh like you believe that Antarctica have a lot of gold beneath uh his means beneath the ice sheet of Antarctica there are many lot of gold hidden you believe it >> I don't believe in that >> no if in future some research are there and the gold has in pound. Then you >> Optimus, I don't understand what you're saying, man. We're talking about God, not gold. Like the L is is is unnecessary here. We don't need the L.
Okay. We're talking about God, not gold.
>> No, no. I'm just clarify you that uh like Wait a second. I have a code.
Awesome film. [clears throat] Okay. [snorts] What a nick. The defier the creator of Allah.
Welcome back.
The almighty creator.
Okay.
Believers. Believers.
Believers. Believers.
Believers. Believers.
Oh, bleers.
Bleers. Please.
Oh.
Oh believers.
Oh believers.
Oh believers believers.
Oh believers.
Oh, believers.
Oh, us.
Oh, please.
Oh, please.
Oh, please.
Please in your room and I hope we can some believers here in [music] this room waiting for them.
Doesn't matter [singing] where they come from.
Oh, doesn't matter where they come from.
Believers, believers, believers, believers.
Oh, okay. After the chanting, maybe we can catch some bleers. [snorts] Anthony, welcome.
And Alan, welcome.
>> How was that? How you doing?
>> I'm doing okay, man. How about you?
>> I'm doing good, too.
>> Cool. Anthony, we have a specific topic in the room. I hope you >> that way I come in because it's I think it's interesting.
>> Great. Great. So, are are you over 18?
>> Yeah. I mean, I'm 17 right now, but my my birthday is tomorrow, so I'm 18. 18, basically. So, >> you're basically 18.
>> Yeah, my birthday is tomorrow.
>> Okay. Okay. [laughter] >> 18, they say. So, >> okay, man. So, we're live on YouTube.
That's why I'm asking. And happy birthday in advance. I >> appreciate it.
>> Yeah. So, I assume you're Christian.
H yeah I but I got some like I know I don't know how to explain sometimes there's something that I do not believe about Christian and I do believe I do believe in God right and is in Jesus Christ but there's something that I don't know like sometimes I say in my mind like there is a God really like you know there's question that think about over and over again, you know.
>> Okay.
>> So, but what about now? Do you believe a god exists?
>> I'm I'm like a 50/50, you know. I don't know if he here really exists. I don't know like if he maybe if he's all lie, you know, all of this shirt say is a lie, you know.
>> You don't know. Okay.
We have an agnostic here.
>> Do you believe in in Jesus Christ?
>> Do you mean as a god?
>> Yeah. Yeah. You believe there there is a god?
>> No, I don't believe.
>> Can you tell me why you don't believe?
>> Uh, sure. I don't see any good evidence.
That's why.
>> How old are you?
>> Sorry. Come again.
>> I say how old are you?
>> Over 18.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
I mean it makes a difference. I see people as an 80s at the age of 15 or 75 80. I mean there's no limit for atheism.
>> Yeah.
So basically what do you have when you realize that you always when you was a kid like you always heard that there is a god and all of that stuff.
>> Oh I was a believer when I was a kid.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> When you stop to believe >> uh it was like six seven years ago.
>> For real?
>> Yeah. For real.
>> And how you [clears throat] like going?
But it's the same but might be even a little bit better.
>> But do you don't you don't think there is something else like about all this world. There's got to be a god or something else like >> who created all this stuff is a false question. If you can understand what is a false question. If you don't I'm going to help you.
Right. Bet.
So, do you know what is a false question?
>> Nope.
>> Okay. If I ask you why did you beat your mother today?
What would what would be your answer?
>> Uh, why would I why would I beat my mom?
Like, >> why did you beat your mother? You don't know why did you beat your mother?
But why would I do that?
>> What do you mean why would I'm not asking why would you do that? I'm asking why did you do that?
>> Cuz I did it.
>> My question is not did you beat your mother? My question is why did you beat your mother?
>> I don't get it at all, bro.
So, Anthony, that was a false question because I I assume that you have beaten your mother. I even assume that you have a mother. Maybe you don't have a mother.
So, that's an assumption.
>> Okay. Well, I had to how >> and you cannot answer a false question.
You can point out that hey that's a false question because you're assuming that I have beaten my mother. I mean let's accept that you have a mother. So that question cannot be accepted because you Okay.
>> Oh. Oh, I get it now. I get it now.
>> So you're assuming that there is a creator or creators indeed. In this case, you you assume that there are creators outside of the universe and created the universe and you you asking who did it.
Oh, wait a second, man. That doesn't mean there are creators out there.
>> Yeah.
>> So, that's why it's a false question.
But that you think that that question like it's in some I know it's sample, right?
How do you prove all this? Like it's like everything got a purpose, you know?
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, everything works, Anthony. But when you say everything has a purpose, I don't understand what you mean. Yeah.
Things are working.
You think God doesn't have a purpose?
>> But who? That's what I That's what I get confused sometimes.
>> Okay. Who?
>> Oh, who create God? That's your confusion.
>> It's about all these question like I don't know where they coming from. It just coming on my mind from our minds. You're right. But yeah, we we we could ask the same question.
Who created God? Why? Because God has also purpose. That means someone created God, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. We could say that. But you know believers in general they don't accept that a god has a creator because they define God as an unccreated being.
And then we have the problem. Hey believer yes you're able to define something but that doesn't make that thing real. We can define the who is a unicorn. What is a unicorn?
That doesn't mean unicorns are real.
Yeah, but I'm assume that you believe in um science and stuff, right? You believe in all of that?
>> Depends on But that's out of the topic, man.
>> But do you believe in science and all this stuff?
>> I trust science. Yeah, I mean they do good work so far.
>> So >> look all that improvement.
>> Where do you think that we are coming from?
How we we can create ourselves.
>> Yeah. We cannot create ourselves.
Yeah. Well, we cannot create >> how how >> God in the lab also. We can only create God in our minds.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But so what I mean just because you don't know how you exist, that doesn't mean God exists.
>> Do you know how God exist?
>> No.
>> Okay. That means someone created God.
>> No.
I mean, I don't know, bro.
>> You don't know. Okay. [laughter] Okay.
Yeah.
>> I always I always try I was trying to like argument with this kind of person like like you like to argument about this stuff, you know, because I think it's interesting.
>> It is still interesting for me.
>> But I'm speaking on my own. You know what I'm saying? I do not know anything about Christian all that. And I do not know like um if I got there there's a guy or not.
>> Maybe it's better for your own sake.
Maybe you should know >> my own like thing that I know. I just speaking on my inner saying anyway Anthony. Um okay let's try to call other people. We have Valid.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Maybe he's a Muslim brother. And we have Kabir. He might also be a Muslim brother.
Maybe they know more about their gods.
>> Yeah, probably.
>> Yeah. Let's see. I hope we can have some believers.
Hello, Kabir. You're a believer.
He doesn't want to speak.
Oh, he's a beginner. Okay, that's the problem.
Okay, Anthony, I'm going to move on to another room, >> right? Bet.
>> Yeah, maybe we can find more people.
>> Okay, >> thanks for joining, man.
>> Right. Right.
>> Yeah. Have a good one.
>> You too.
>> Thanks.
So, dear people, 1 hour 20 minute.
That's not very active.
And but yeah, as I said, days are different here.
Sometimes it's good, sometimes bad, sometimes it's just h.
So, yep.
Let me check another platform also.
So, so, so, so the link is there pinned a Streamyard link. Welcome, Captain.
Oops. Let's copy paste this one first.
And here we go.
Okay, we need to entered the language.
[snorts] So, so so so the message.
We are ready.
Oops.
Okay. Free for talk is dying today. It's just 400 rooms.
Hey, welcome fire starter. That is true statement. I don't know what Daniel said but all accounts are true except the false ones.
This region houses the vast majority of the global non-religious population.
Okay. Poo. We have a poo in the room.
[snorts] Hello poo. I think there's a connection problem of Pooh.
Yeah, his internet looks like in the pick.
So, okay, we have Kyle.
Maybe Kyle is a believer.
Hey, man. You're a believer.
Call L like the Superman.
Okay. You're not speaking. It's okay.
It's okay.
It's okay.
We have who?
Okay. We don't have any right now. Satanists is an illdefined term.
There are theistic Satanists and secular Satanists. Okay, that's kind of deeper.
It's Wungvu.
Okay.
Vietvu.
Okay. Believers are resting today.
I'm glad I'm able to keep myself and not go nuts in their beliefs. It's nothing like self-control.
Okay.
Oops. Someone is speaking about Satanists. Satan.
Okay.
See, here we have a problem with Nightboat. I see that because the minutes between those four messages like 7 7 8 these are the time differences but I have seen the messages in a row that that's not nice.
Okay, let's refresh the room again.
Who's this? Shashank.
Oh, is No. And that's not that guy, I think. Hello, Shashank.
Joe Shank Redemption.
Shank. Shashank.
Okay. Shank is now speaking.
Hey man, welcome.
Yeah, we don't have many speakers today.
Aman, no. And yeah, yes, free for talk today, but um it's not crowded. We don't have many people.
So, Sha Shang, if you're speaking, I cannot hear you, man.
I see you unmuted yourself but your audio is not coming.
You should know that Abd al Basset, that's a promising Muslim name, but he left down.
Oh.
Show shank. I don't hear you.
Show shank. You are not oldable.
Shank.
My ears cannot hear you.
Show shank.
You don't have a sound.
Okay. Try again.
Okay, that's boring.
What's that sound effect?
That's sound effect of the echo chamber of our channel.
Echo.
That's not an echo. Technically, that's a reverb.
down.
Okay, I hear myself or what? Shashank.
Okay, man. I'm I'm not going to talk to you anymore.
One more time. One more time. One more time.
Creating the room.
But it's so boring here.
It's so boring here.
Okay, night boat. Let's see.
Let's see what is the night vote is doing. Okay, I see one message. That's nice.
down [sighs and gasps] down.
Have you tickled that thumbs up yet?
Okay, Lisia, thank you.
Believers are atheists to all the other gods. That's true. Yeah, that's true.
They don't believe in any of those gods.
But wait a second. Uh, that would be unfair for some Hindu people. David, you should know that I have heard many Hindu people here, they say I believe in every god and I say the Christian and Muslim ones also they say yes.
So they're not atheists. Okay.
Yeah. Don't forget about them.
So we have Ashie. Hello Ashy. Welcome.
back integrator dab.
We have the lead. Maybe the lead is a believer who wants to debate about God.
Elite Acrobi.
>> Hello, Elite.
>> Yo, how are you? I'm okay. How about you?
>> I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I don't know. Like the title is a bit catchy, you know.
>> Okay, cool. I just got in.
>> Mhm. So, >> yeah.
>> Did you check the welcome message?
>> Um, not really. I'm sorry. Hold on.
>> It says the topic. It says we are live on YouTube and it says you should be a believer and over 18.
>> Oh, yeah. Don't worry about it. I'm already 26. So, >> okay, cool. So, I assume you're a Muslim.
>> Uh, the thing is um I'm just like trying to find, you know, I'm trying to find the truth, you know.
>> Okay. Like an agnostic.
>> Yeah, kind of. You can say that.
>> Okay.
>> And thing is, yes, I'm I was born in a Muslim country and amidst of like a Muslim family as well.
>> Mhm.
>> So, yeah, it's like a bit hard because you're standing against a whole culture, you know, a whole society.
And um yeah, it's not really easy.
>> I can understand that.
>> Yeah.
>> So yeah, now you're searching for the truth. How you're doing that?
>> I don't know. Like I read too much stuff and I put my own theories sometimes. I you know I discover some stuff from there here and there >> and uh I don't know. I'm kind of like stuck nowadays. But like um you know I guess I'm I'm I'm you know I'm doing well in that you know I'm trying to do a kind of research and stuff. So >> okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
But well one thing it's not only for you though it's also for the audience. We we have uh the let's say numbers. I don't know the numbers to be honest. Okay I'm lying about that part. But I I have seen many people that you know like you they're searching for the truth but somehow they they find the truth you know not different than what what they're they're taught to be when they were kids. So they return to the religion of their family >> parents. So they say hey I researched I studied and I think this religion is true. Oh really? But I talked to a Christian who who were the same. He also said, "Hey, I I was confused. I don't know." But I searched and I realized this religion is true and the Hindu person does the same. That means something to me. I mean, hey, I mean, is that a coincidence? Uh, but we know that all those three religions cannot be true at the same time.
>> [snorts] >> If someone is doing a study and finding out that their parents religion is the true one or they go back to the religion that they they were in already um kind of or you're lucky you research and you found out that this is the true religion. You must be so lucky man.
>> Mhm.
>> But you know other people are also lucky. They must be because they claim to to find the true one also. But it again it's the same religion that they left earlier. Yeah, that's a red flag.
But many people don't see that.
>> Yeah, I totally got you. I don't know.
The thing is, you know, like um there's actually a question that I kind of like stick around it, which is um which created God, you know, and um I don't I I just like come to a kind of conclusion that um there's actually a way through this and it's kind of like older than we all think which is um you know you can actually look at everything around you um you your parents their parents before them the earth you know so we can actually find that the earth depending on the sun and the sun depending on the laws of physics and they're all holding it together so every single thing you can point to didn't actually have to exist. It's actually depending on something else to exist. And this is actually what called maybe um this is what usually philosophers call it contingent.
And um contingent in general, it's like um things that can't explain themselves.
And I guess like the concept of God it's kind of like the same because this thing it's kind of unex unexplainable maybe.
So you know you can ask you can actually ask you yourself maybe why the chairs ex is existing. So you will to you will definitely point to to wood you know and it's it's kind of like contingent you know. So >> sure, it's obviously contingent, but let's think more about the chair. I mean, the wood, you need the wood, right?
>> Yeah. And you can ask yourself why the wood exists. You point to a tree and you can ask why the tree exists. You know, you you keep just pointing backward forever.
>> And um you know, if every single thing is existence only exists because something else, then nothing in that chain actually explains why anything exists at all. So I don't know you maybe you can't or we can't build reality um entirely out of bored existence. So this is what I'm kind of like coming to nowadays.
>> I see.
>> And at at some point like something has to exist that isn't borrowing something that doesn't depend on anything outside itself not contingent you know.
So yeah.
>> Okay. But we cannot claim that there is something like that.
>> I don't know. Uh you know it's it's a kind of like some stuff that stuck in my head and [clears throat] I keep just saying that always was and God always will be. So >> sure. Sure. But you should add more questions into that questioning style.
>> Yeah. So uh for example when you go back about the voodoo tree example we can go back till atoms or even quantum fields.
>> Exactly.
>> And but when we stuck anyone can suggest that yeah that that's not contingent [snorts] someone can claim that easily if you want to solve that problem.
uh since we don't see beyond that bad one can say hey maybe this one is not contingent if there is such a thing so you don't have to go outside of the universe to claim that something exists without any cause we don't need to go outside of the universe if you go deeper inside the universe you can find a candidate to say that oh yeah that might exist without a cause sure we don't know that but there's Another thing uh the chair example doesn't only require the voodoo. It requires human beings >> or other devices that we created. It requires a lot of elements together plus a lot of humans then it can exist. So you need a lot of things together to have something else. So anyone can say hey wait a second if one you know thing which is not contingent can exist in this case they're talking about God if one exists why not the second third fourth I mean there's no rule that only one thing can exist without a cause there's no such a rule also so maybe you should think about that also while you're questioning >> hey uh can I just speak a little But I think when he was giving the contingency argument, he I think messed it up a little bit >> really.
>> So yeah, I think uh cuz the contingency argument uh is not like very simple.
It's got a lot of premises. So the the first premise is everything that exists either exists necessarily, which means it cannot fail to exist. Yeah. Or the the second choice is it exists contingently. So it depends on something.
Uh just like he gave the example of a chair, it depends not only on one thing, it can depend on a lot of things. And uh that's the that chain. And [clears throat] the second premise goes on. So we know that the universe is contingent. Uh, so the universe could obviously have been different or it might not have existed at all or everything.
>> How do you know that Mark? That's a big claim and you just passing live. Oh yeah, that's an obvious thing. How do you know that universe is contingent?
>> Uh, can you repeat?
>> How do you know that's the case?
>> Uh, because it is contingent.
that that's circular man like how do they know it is contingent >> I like people used to people used to deal with universe as a contingent thing you know people used to depend on a lot of things to live to survive that's why this idea came >> yeah but I I don't think it's justified well enough so because you say it's the if I say for example let's suppose you are a believer Mark I mean we don't have to because you said yes >> yes >> by the way which god you believe I believe in Islam.
>> Oh, Allah. Okay. Well, that's surprise with the name Mark. But that's okay. So, if I say Allah is also contingent.
If I keep claiming that, that doesn't mean it's going to be the case, right?
>> Uh well, it's not the case because Allah is the unmoved mover.
>> That's what you believe. that that's a concept that that exists and you don't know whether it's real or not. But I'm just trying to say if I say no no no Mark Allah is contingent.
>> So >> doesn't make it contingent. So I'm that's why I'm saying how do you know the universe is contingent?
>> So this is your opinion. That's just one opinion of a philosopher. Yeah. But if you just look at physics, if you look at philosophy, like if you just read a little bit, almost all scientists agree that the universe is contingent. And you can I don't think you can name >> false.
Come on. That's false, man. Many pe many there are many scientists.
>> They don't know whether there has been a cause for the singularity to exist in the first place. They don't know that.
>> They're agnostic about that.
>> I don't know. May I add a question?
Maybe.
>> Sure.
>> I don't know. Like I found it this way.
It's it's this, you know, once you admit something has to be uncaused, what's more believable? And I'm not I'm not defending anyone here. So the thing is, you know, I'm just like ideas and stuff.
So once you admit something has to be uncaused, what's more believable? you know, an unnecessary conscious mind behind reality or an uncaused uncaused universe with no mind behind it at all.
>> What is the universe philosopher?
>> H >> what is universe philosopher?
>> Universe is the it's the place that we are inside or with all those celestial objects that you see.
So every part within universe is what makes it universe. Yeah.
>> Every part you can say that >> part every planets and everything.
>> So all of these things are contingent which means the whole >> contingent upon what? Contingent upon what?
>> The laws of physics.
>> Okay. Laws of physics exist inside the universe. Right.
Well, we don't know what's outside the universe. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay. So, if you say that everything is contingent upon physical laws since physical laws are here in this universe, you don't have to s search for anything outside of the universe to say that hey look chair, moon, sun, galaxies are contingent upon something else outside of the you don't have to do that. You you find the answer. It's inside the universe.
Physical lows.
>> You didn't quite get it. So, what I mean by that is every physical object like inside the universe has some components.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay, they have components and >> uh so what I mean is if uh those components if those parts are contingent all the parts wait contingent upon what?
You're not explaining that part.
>> No, it depends on what? Give me the specific object >> you you give me. I mean let's say the moon.
>> The moon. Yeah, >> it is contingent on Earth.
>> Contingent on Earth.
>> Gravity.
>> Gravity.
>> The sun. [laughter] >> So, moon cannot exist without Earth.
That's what you mean.
>> Well, can it?
>> Sure it can.
>> What does it orbit around?
>> But it can it can orbit around another thing. Then we could change the name. We we could we can say it's a planet anymore, not a moon.
>> Okay. Yeah. We >> so those objects they don't have to depend on planets.
>> Planet we could say that a planet.
>> Yeah.
>> The sun and you know >> okay [snorts] and >> so yeah >> you go back till what if you search the the things in this you know coal chain where do you end up?
uh you obviously end up with uh something that uh is the uncosted causer or >> uncosted coer.
>> Oh no, that's what you believe. You cannot implement implement your beliefs like this. So >> I'm not I'm not trying to you know assert my belief into you cuz uh cuz I think >> Okay, let me do something else then.
Okay, so We will not agree on that.
>> What? So just be patient. What is something that could convince you?
>> Just just just be patient a little bit.
Okay. But click on my profile.
>> Yeah, I I am.
>> Okay. This is universe and you're saying that this universe is contingent. I will follow you. Okay. And I will say see. Okay. Creator.
I will say creator.
So then I will say okay I'll say creator came from creators And those creators are not contingent >> uh creators. Yeah.
>> Like multiple.
>> Why not? I mean uh look look at your laptop. Your laptop has multiple creators.
>> Yeah.
>> So uh but let's follow what you said.
The universe is contingent. Okay. I follow you and I even follow your religion. it it's contingent upon one creator and but that doesn't mean this one creator is not contingent. It doesn't mean that.
So let's assume this creator has two creators here and those two creators they don't have any creators so they're not contingent.
>> Okay, let's follow this philosophy.
Yeah, that sounds interesting. So you have two creators and uh that does not add up for a number of reasons. One of the first reasons is the universe is finetuning. You know that and >> uh I don't see any problem Mark like this creator finally tuned this universe. Mark Mark this creator finally tuned the universe.
We don't have problem with it.
>> Two of them.
>> Not not two of them. This one. You don't check the screen man. The red one. I I am checking >> the red one finally tun the universe >> but the the yellow ones control the red one >> they don't control they created the red one >> um may I >> that doesn't mean they control sure well >> uh I don't know but there's something that called you know the cosmic um the cosmic something all I'm going to try to remember it uh it's it's actually a principle that some philosopher used to follow which is principle of cosmic interconnection ction or inter um interconnectness that means like or that let us say suggests that every action or object or living being is a part of you know a creator maybe whole or something. So in this view the universe is not merely a collection of separate things. It's a kind of um organized network let us say where each part influences the other. So whenever you take a kind of like part from that loop or from that um organized network maybe something will definitely happen and it's kind of like uh >> I think you guys are listen carefully no one said that this universe is not organized but we we agreed on that the universe has been finally tuned. So >> no the thing is because because you know you because you are argue arguing that the universe is not contingent and um >> no no no I I think you didn't listen the whole conversation so far.
>> So according to this example we accept that uh the universe is contingent. Okay because that was a dead end. No need to be stubborn when we disagree. Okay. Then I said, okay, let's agree that the universe is contingent, but still it it doesn't end up with uh any of his god or any of the religions that we know on the planet. So saying that the universe is contingent upon something is not the evidence of their god. That that's the problem that I'm trying to show.
>> Okay. May I ask you something?
>> Sure.
>> What is your definition of the universe?
>> We don't need to define I mean you already asked.
>> Okay. Do you think stars are parts of part of the universe?
>> I don't know. I'm asking you. So >> you don't know.
>> Okay.
>> Do you think we are part of the universe?
>> Okay. I the thing is I just want I just want to you know to know your point of view.
>> I'm sorry. I'm not going to define what is universe.
>> That's totally understandable.
>> Everything is universe.
>> Everything. God included.
>> Nope. Because God is timeless. God is spaceless.
>> So then universe is a separate thing.
>> Universe had a beginning you know 13.6 13.6 billion. Yeah.
>> 13.6 billion years ago. There was this big bang. So it's the most widely accepted theory and it's been expanding and then they just backtracked and then know that it's 13.6 billion.
>> Okay. But you see, we accept what you said that the universe is contingent.
It's here. So, and the universe has been finally tuned by a creator. I also accepted that. But that that doesn't end because uh if there is something there can be a creator of that thing like the universe, right? If universe is contingent, the cause of the universe can be contingent also. For example, we mentioned about the chair. You you guys remember, right? Chair is contingent upon the wood you said. Then the wood is contingent upon the the tree forest and so on. So you see contingent things can also be contingent upon other things and they can also be contingent. That's what we figured out. So if the universe is contingent upon something which is here it's a creator that doesn't mean it's not contingent it can also be contingent and >> well then it's not God because God by definition >> good so now we have two gods here according to what you said >> because these these are the unmoved movers you see according to this example Well, these things are not contingent. And they moved. They started to move.
>> You know that you cannot have two gods.
Yeah.
>> Why not?
>> Because they will contradict each other.
>> They will No, no problem. They can contradict each other.
>> Gods. If there are two gods, you cannot have clear laws that clear laws.
>> False. False. That's a very false claim.
And I don't know how people can I don't understand how people can make such simple mistakes. Yeah, Mark, that's very childish. You should know that. So, uh, are you using your phone or laptop right now?
>> Uh, using my phone.
>> Okay. Do you think your phone has been created by one person?
>> No, we're talking about gods.
>> Okay, we are talking about Yeah, you don't know gods, Mark.
>> Mark, you don't know about these gods.
So you can't assume things about them.
>> But what I'm trying to tell you, Mark, Mark, be patient. Mark, please, >> please be patient, man. Even we, we stupid humans can come together. We can create things together. Even if we have conflicts, that doesn't prevent us to create something which is finally working. So we can do that. If humans can do that, how can you say God cannot do that something we can do?
How can you claim such a silly thing?
>> What do you what do you mean we can do something about I mean do you think human beings can all agree on one thing?
>> Uh that humans can be in harmony for billions of years with not a single argument.
>> No, >> no one says no one says that. No one says that.
>> This is what you said. No, that's not what I said. That's not what I said. I said your phone exist because of the agreement of many people and they might even have discussions about a lot of things about the phone but still they created the phone. So if humans can do this, how come gods cannot do that?
>> We're talking about operating and having clear laws and >> Yeah. Do do you think your phone doesn't have Do you think that your phone is not operating?
>> Humans get together.
>> Someone is not currently controlling my phone at the moment. Like people are not.
>> Do you think your phone is operating or not? Mark, >> two people.
>> Mark, do you think your phone is operating or not?
>> I'll take your mic if you don't answer this question. Do you think your phone is operating or not?
>> Two people, right?
>> [ __ ] the two people.
Yeah, the phone is operating and it has been created by many people.
Well, it please don't interrupt. So, the phone has been Please don't >> interrupt your [snorts] >> I said please don't interrupt. So, the phone is operating. The phone has lows.
The phone has rules and has been created by many people and those people are not always agreeing each other. And these stupid humans if they can do such a thing you're saying that oh gods cannot do that's so silly and I don't understand how you can imagine something like that and they they want to enforce their beliefs like this in in the most illogical way.
Gods are like kids that they're fighting. Gods are like animals that they're fighting. Oh really? How do they know that? How do you know that gods are like animals fighting and they cannot agree on something?
>> Yeah. This >> how do you know that?
>> Yeah. His claim was was that they that we they couldn't make clear laws together and humans make get together and make clear laws all the time. Every country has a ton of laws in it that humans got together and made, you know, um >> despite our disagreements, >> right? Exactly. Exactly. And if and if us stupid waring humans can pull it off, why can't multiple uncaused causes pull it off? There's no theoretical reason why that's not valid.
>> Look at those big companies. many people are ruling those companies. Do you think that they they they're like robots agreeing everything that they say >> and and right and the fine-tuning argument kicked all this off and which is even a better argument for multiple minds considering how complex that would be if it turns out that it's actually a mind or group of minds that came up with these kinds of extreme tolerances in in ratios and things that we find in nature. It's even more of an argument for multiple creators.
For one mind to be able to pull off fine-tuning is unfathomable to the nth degree >> for me.
>> And that example was even way simpler.
So you exist, you have father and mother. That creator exists because that creator has father and mother. If human beings can create someone and doesn't matter like how much they disagree about things that doesn't mean they cannot disagree on one thing. Maybe that's true that many gods they disagreed on a lot of things about the universe. Maybe that's why we don't see them right now. Maybe there was going to be unicorns in this universe on this planet. Maybe they said, "Ah, come on, man. That that's so [ __ ] funny. I mean, no need to do that. Maybe that's why they don't have it.
Uh, maybe there is still fight thing about, you know, the the dark matter matter thingy.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Maybe that that's a fight. Maybe someone doesn't want >> matter and created the dark matter and or maybe stars. Maybe some gods are they don't like stars. Maybe that's why there are black holes. Maybe that's why some stars are exploding. [laughter] >> Yeah.
>> To me, it seems like quite disagreement.
>> Yeah.
>> How come it's fine-tuned?
We have Joseph. Joseph, I have seen your philosophy discussion, not as your stream on YouTube. Yep. I'm the founder of something.
Uh Okay, Joseph. I'm not sure about that, man.
Yep.
But thanks for the offer.
Hey, the missing. Welcome.
Yeah, we're moving.
I'm moving.
Sorry, [laughter] I am moving. But you can shoot gun. Not following. No, we're moving. Let's >> Okay, good. We're mowing. [gasps] So, yeah.
And the guy the lead I hope he was not lying. He said he's a seeker trying to find the truth.
And if he cannot find the truth in such simple examples, I don't think he's going to find something valuable soon.
>> For an agnostic seeker, he sure dug his heels in pretty hard on some easy stuff.
>> Yeah. you know, and he's fa he's facing the pressure of being an unbeliever in a Muslim community and a Muslim family.
And that's really tough.
>> And you know what is funny? Well, there had been a lot of believers so far here.
They posed, they said, "Wait a second.
That sounds logical, but I have to think about that." And they were believers.
>> Yeah, >> they were believers. And this guy, I mean, he didn't say he's a believer, but he couldn't do even what they did, >> right?
>> Yeah.
>> That that's bad. But anyway, so Raj is ghosting us maybe.
Um, you should read the book titled Looking for God.
>> [snorts] >> Okay.
I don't know, man. There are a lot of books people are offering.
I wish I had time and patience to read those books.
So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so empty.
We had empty the other day, but it was on freeboard talk.
Okay. Empty. You want to speak?
Empty.
Okay. He doesn't want to speak. Sage doesn't want to speak.
You've been pulling a fair amount of callers from uh YouTube through Streamyard lately.
>> Yesterday we had a lot of people. Yeah.
>> Yeah, that was pretty cool.
>> Yeah, but you know, days are different.
We don't have the same day.
We don't have the same good day.
[snorts] Uh yesterday I enjoyed a lot.
>> Yeah, we hit uh about 50 viewers at one time I noticed. So >> maybe that was the maximum.
>> Yeah.
>> Yep.
>> Yep. It's It's growing little by little.
I'm showing 32 on YouTube right now, which is not a bad crowd really.
Yeah, but I wish we always have the speakers for the audience.
Uh, if I'm getting bored, they must be more. I mean, at least they have a chat there that they can engage with, but uh, sure we need speakers.
Thorin, Thorin, you join free for I've seen this face on free for talk. Or maybe I'm just confusing that Thorphin.
Okay. You're a believer, Torphin.
Not. Okay. Okay.
You're not a believer.
Okay, we have Sam Ali. Maybe Sam Ali is a believer.
Hello, welcome. Sam Ali.
>> Hello. Asalamikum.
>> Oh, okay. It's it's a Muslim sister.
>> Yes. Alhamdulillah. I believe on one gold.
Sorry.
>> Okay. One guy. Okay. Sam, uh, you should know that we are on YouTube right now.
Many people they don't read the warnings.
I'm just informing you in case you didn't read.
>> Oh, you're reading. Okay.
Okay, not late.
Let's wait.
>> Uh, sorry, brother. I'm leaving this room because my English is not so good.
So, I can't uh >> maybe next year, sister. Take care.
>> Thank you.
>> Good luck here.
We have Ama R.
Hello R.
We have Violet and we have Joho and we have Bright.
Okay, maybe they [clears throat] are believers. Let's see.
We are waiting for believers. Jo, we are waiting for believers.
Oh, believers.
Oh, believers.
Oh, believers, believers, believers.
Oh, believers.
Oh, bleers.
We made our call for the believers.
Oh, Bob joined. Luckily, payer works.
But but we don't know which God is that.
Okay. Bob seems like having a problem with the connection.
Okay.
Oh, yeah. Bob has here. Hello, Bob.
Welcome.
>> Hello. Hello.
Um All right. So, uh I believe in God.
Um well I mean I guess uh first uh first argument is um that that convinces me and that is sound and uh valid is the colum cosmological. So um I'll I'll give you the two premises.
Um >> before that let's quick check. You're over 18.
>> Yeah.
>> Cool. Cool. Okay. First two premises.
>> Yeah. Everything that begins to exist uh has a cause and uh the universe began to exist. Do do you agree?
>> Okay. Uh I agree. But do you think singularity began to exist?
>> Singular like um singularity is just uh would just be the universe in a hot dense state. But I still think that the entire universe had a cause.
>> Okay. But do you think singularity began to exist?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. But science doesn't say that.
Uh what are you talking about? That's that's illogical to say that um that the universe was eternal.
>> Many scientists are illogical. That's >> uh no that's not how so what scientists do is that they they examine um they exam like they they see no evidence that um that something physical or something that they can measure uh caused the singularity. That doesn't mean that there was no cause. So I >> Okay, we're not saying that. Oh, no. No, but we are not saying that. We're not claiming that. But science doesn't say that singularity began to exist. They're not able to say that.
>> I know. I'm saying that logically it requires there to be a cause.
>> Logically. Logically.
>> Why? Because if you cannot say it began to exist. So you're saying the universe began to exist and we agree on that.
>> But when it comes to singularity, we cannot say it began to exist.
>> Yeah, we can because uh if it Yeah. If it if it always existed then that means you believe in an infinite past which is a logical >> past. No no no no wait a second like but they don't mention about time. So we cannot speak about past future about that >> was a singularity in time.
>> Oh they don't claim time existed at singularity.
>> Oh so oh so the singularity is outside of time. Oh, you you can say I mean outside inside doesn't make sense for me also. But when we speak about singularity, we don't speak about time.
>> Okay. So, uh you didn't really answer.
So, was the singularity inside or outside of time?
>> I don't know that. But we are not speaking about >> deduce it using axioms. That's >> Oh, really? Yes, we can.
>> Okay. So, there was time when singularity was there?
Uh yeah, if you're saying that wasn't time, >> they don't say that. Scientists say time began to exist.
>> That can't we can't measure. Yeah, because obviously we can't measure if it was in time uh in the in the >> No, don't say that it was in time then.
>> What are you talking about? I can deduce that.
>> You cannot >> using axioms. You can Okay. You think God is in time or outside of time?
>> Yeah. Yeah. God would be outside of time.
>> Outside of time. Good. Very good. So if God is outside of time that means he cannot act.
>> No no no nonsequittor that >> yeah it is very good. So if singularity was timeless or outside of time that means singularity cannot act.
>> No.
>> If you say no that's also non singular.
>> I'm saying [clears throat] it was inside that that wasn't the reason why I was saying it was inside of time. So you just assumed um but also >> you're assuming that there was time with singularity. Do you think that we can only know what's real through empirical evidence?
>> Oh >> yeah. No. Right. So then stop asking oh scientists don't see.
>> Yeah. We we don't know. Therefore God exists also doesn't follow Bob.
>> I know that's not my argument.
>> Okay. What's your argument then? Okay.
One more time. Let's make it clear when this universe was a singularity. There was time or not.
>> Yeah. I think that the singularity would be in time because if it wasn't, Lie Ben's law states that it would be God.
>> Wait, wait, wait. Come again.
>> I deduce that it is in time because if it wasn't, Liebenz's law states that it would be in disccernible from God's essence. That means that >> God. Yes. It would have existence.
>> It would have all the properties of of a divine.
>> You You can't say that.
>> Oh, really? Why?
>> Well, why? Because singularity, how can you say singularity but has consciousness or emotions?
>> That's not what theism is or anything.
>> Yeah. That's theism. To to believe in God, you minimalis you as a minimalist, you just need to be a deist.
>> That that just believes in a personal necessary being. Yes. A deist.
>> Impersonal necessary being. It's a god.
>> Yes. That's Yes. That's a deist god.
Yes.
>> Okay.
Well, what's the difference?
>> That's not going to work here >> between singularity and universe then, >> right? So, until you can give me a symmetry breaker, you actually do believe in the deist god because it would be singularity would be in disccernible from what deists claim god's essences.
>> This is live's law.
>> Oh, okay. Then then I'm a god. So, what about you?
>> So, then I just so then I I proved god then you you're no longer an atheist. I just won.
>> Very good. Very good. Congratulations.
You believe in the same God? Oh, a very dishonest brother. [clears throat] He is very dishonest. So, probably most likely he doesn't believe in the same God. If he calls that God. So, I don't care what people call God. That's the problem. There are many people they call the [ __ ] universe itself is a god. I don't care about that. I don't want to name it God. Singularity. I would never name it God also. And I don't care what other people call the singularity. This is not my problem. But I don't think this dude was believing that singularity was a god because he didn't go there. He believed that singularity has been created by another being and probably he believes that that's a god. So yep.
Anyway, jokers from other platforms.
Okay. A whole ratio. Welcome. Uh, I'm going to jump.
>> [sighs] >> So, let's go back to free talk.
Okay.
or ratio will come back.
>> That last caller was a clown.
>> Come on.
>> That was just really >> We are gonna have the clowns. Yeah.
>> An angry hyper Christian filro who just >> That was insanity. Insufferable.
>> Who cares?
No, you're right. You're right. You're right. I'm I'm sure some people got a kick out of it. That's for sure.
>> But he doesn't seem like a very happy individual.
>> Sure. That was obvious.
So, so, so, so, so we don't have many Muslims today on 342 by the way. like uh okay it's still reaching 500 rooms so it means it's active >> hey you're welcome >> I I have to admit that I'm not comfortable entering a discussion uh within physics uh and the argument of time and singularity and all that if you're com if you're comfortable with enough knowledge college to engage in that. That's admirable. But I know I can't do it. So I I don't even go into those arguments. I mean >> I I just reflect what what scientists say. Horatio, they don't claim time.
They claim by the way I follow you what they say time began to exist. Yes, believer. I accept that time began to exist with the big bang. What is big bang? is the expansion of singularity.
There was time with singularity. No, it began to exist with the big bang. That's what they say. So, >> so that means >> are you talking are you talking about time within our universe or is there time outside of universe?
>> That that's a different topic to discuss but you know if we can find serious people we can go there also. So maybe that there is the method time uh maybe the time we have works differently. We don't know that that much, >> right?
>> Yeah. That's why we have a theory of time, B theory of time, maybe even others. I don't know. But we didn't make up our minds yet about the time. What is time? How it works.
>> Yeah. The B theory of time is just a way to get us to think about time differently. And it says that all moments exist.
There's there's all moments exist. Yeah. It's just a different way of looking at time.
>> But time time is the ultimate defeater.
So the first thing they do like today people came in and you know they they claim that the the the big bang theory is about the creation of the universe and it's not. It's about the expansion.
So that's that's one thing. And then the time argument destroys them because go you can't have a creative act without time. their god has to exist in time.
Their god has to have a timeline or there's no before and after state of creation. So it's it it's you know and then now you're just now you're just kicking the can down the road. So this business of God living outside of time and being timeless is nonsense because you cannot act without time.
>> Yeah.
But but you see the the be beauty in that voke. I I think maybe you don't see it right now. Um but I use it all the time. If you can move act without the time.
So if singularity was timeless or or we can say even the universe is timeless like time exists inside the universe.
You can't say universe itself bound by the time. You can't say that or the existence about this universe. You cannot say that it is inside in a time the the time is inside the universe. So >> right you cannot >> so then we we can claim that hey I mean what's going on here it's technically happening timelessly. I mean time only works inside the universe. So the universe if you can look at if you could maybe yeah it's timeless >> right? So >> I I agree but then how does how does that leave?
>> Yeah. How how does does it go? Because they believe that God is timeless and God can act. Okay. If they believe the universe is timeless in that sense then it it can act also. If one timeless being can act why not the second one cannot act >> right?
So because we don't know how exactly it works that doesn't say that hey wait someone is doing that we cannot say that but if you're going to go down that rabbit hole okay then your god cannot act by by himself also someone is moving your god I don't care about your infinite regress problem because you're creating that problem not me. Yeah, that's right. An infinite regress not being possible. It's just something they claim and they all say it and it's it's part of the indoctrination.
We've seen it a couple times today. I mean, >> they can't even entertain the hypothetical. They won't even engage with the multiple uncaused causes argument anyway.
>> Neo way. Yeah.
>> But yeah, thanks for that. It gives me something to chew on.
>> We have Reuben and Oka.
Hello, Reuben. Oka.
Hey, Kelly. Thanks. Thanks for the super chat.
Um, yeah, I also thank you for the super chat and for being a moderator. Doesn't even have to be your moderator here. You are bringing a different color to to the channel and other channels.
Thank you, Kelly. Hello, it's Reuben speaking.
>> Yes, I have a question. Do you guys know what is the definition of time?
>> Uh, we just said, but it's unclear a little bit to us. We were explaining that, but probably you missed that part.
So, I'm not good with the time.
>> I was gone.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. But what about God?
Our topic is God, not time.
Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> Wait a second. Wait a second.
>> Okay.
>> Oh, it's the other guy.
Uh, it's Oka. Hey, Oka.
Oh, >> you're speaking on the phone or what?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Okay. You're really far from your mic.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay. That was not good.
>> Hello.
>> Okay. Okay. Let's give chance for Reuben because he started speaking first. But please raise your hand in case I don't miss you.
>> Yeah. Reuben, welcome back.
Welcome.
>> Yeah, you're welcome.
>> I'm just um I'm just uh listening because um you all know you already know my um belief, right?
>> Oh, no. [laughter] >> I don't know you, man.
>> We spoke.
>> Yeah, we have spoken >> few days ago.
>> I'm sorry. I cannot even remember like the people that I talked an hour ago. So >> what he ate?
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. But if you're a non-believer, then yeah, we we can just move on. Are you a believer, Reuben?
>> Yeah. But are we only talking about uh the thing that you are the topic or can we talk about something else that's related to the topic >> which is for example >> which is time.
As I said, I don't know much about time >> or about uh we you talked about uh gods and time and everything about around the topic about gods.
>> No, but as I said, I just repeated what scientists say. They say that the spacetime began to exist with the expansion of the singularity.
That's what they claim.
So then yeah something has started they name it time then space. So that's what they say but if we go deeper I don't know how time works exactly.
Oh yeah it's very hard because we are only on this earth for like I I don't know how old you are but not for that long. So how can we Yeah. It's very hard to actually you can know it but can you feel it um >> so yeah it's very hard to explain time >> okay yeah sure it's a hard topic >> you can you can you can know something but can you understand it it's like a different difference >> but okay I mean I can agree on that statement also I mean we can know something exist but we we don't have to know or We maybe we don't know or we cannot know how it works exactly. Yeah. Like the universe we know universe exist but we don't know how exactly universe existed. Yeah.
We're speaking about singularity.
>> You think we can um >> do you think we can know it in the future?
>> Oh I I think because we didn't know many things earlier and we learned many of those things and we keep learning. That doesn't mean we we're going to learn everything, but we have evidence that we can learn more things that we didn't know in the past.
>> Mhm. All right.
>> Yeah, we have evidence for that.
>> Believe in uh something else >> like what?
>> No, I don't believe in God, man. So, you also don't remember our conversation.
>> No, I don't believe in ghosts. Also, I said seemingly also don't remember our conversation earlier.
>> You know, you know our conversation about about ghosts, right?
>> I don't remember that also.
But it's weird that you're asking me the question that whether I believe in ghosts or not. The answer is no. Again, >> I didn't change that.
>> Was weird.
>> Damn. It was no and still no. I don't believe in ghosts.
>> Okay.
>> Do you?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Why?
>> Uh because I had experienced one.
>> You experienced one. Okay.
But because you had an experience that means ghosts are real.
No, I I talked about with people and they also experienced one.
>> They also experienced >> one like a ghost.
>> How do you know they exactly experienced what you experienced?
>> I don't know. I can't relate if it's exactly the same.
>> Yeah, we can relate discuss about what we see.
>> Yeah. Because some emotions can can be similar to other emotions, but that doesn't mean they represent the same thing. And because >> emotions >> Yeah. I mean, experience is all about emotions, right?
>> No.
>> No.
>> Is it?
>> I think man, if we listen this one, Reuben, >> let's listen this one.
>> Includes >> Reuben. Reuben, let's say let's speak about a scenario. Okay, we're going to imagine something. Okay, please be patient.
>> Imagine no one can speak on on the planet on this planet.
>> No one knows any language. Okay.
>> Yeah. But magically one day everyone starts speaking in let's say in English >> and people start communicating >> and they for example they start speaking about dreams okay and >> they see that I mean they explain that they were flying in their dreams so don't you think dreams are also experience So don't you think that many people can have the same same experience in their dreams or similar they can right when they say hey you know what I was flying in my dream that's what I experienced okay uh the other person can also say yes man I also had the same experience I was also flying so now now should we say >> flying I mean humans can fly. Can we say that because of that they had the same experience?
>> Totally different.
>> Why? It's it's also an experience >> is totally different.
>> How do they know? It's totally different.
>> No, it's not. It's not.
>> But it's also an experience.
>> Why? It's not an experience >> really >> because um Yeah. Oh okay. Doesn't it happen in in the brain?
>> Dream.
>> Sorry.
>> It happens in the brain, right?
>> I I think it's I think it's not a real experience.
>> It's okay. Then how do you know which one is the real experience? I mean to me both are real experience.
>> When you awake and when you're dream is two different things.
>> Okay. But don't you know that people who are not in dreams awake still can see things that other people don't see. But when we investigate, we can understand, wait a second, the person is high or under some drugs or hallucinating for some other reasons.
>> Yeah. No, no, I wasn't. I was on the drugs when I saw >> I'm not saying that you were, but you you don't have to be sleeping to see something false. Reuben, >> example, imagine imagine a thirsty person in the middle of a desert >> and imagine that person says, "Hey, I see a lake, man. Let's go there in that direction under the sun. Let's leave leave this this shadow here. Let's go and drink the water. They go and there's no water.
So, you think there was a magical water there?
I uh I don't know exactly what you mean, but I think because uh when they were in the in this in this area where it's very hot and they you said they saw water, right?
Um but when you have like when your body is very heating and very when you're like little bit dizzy and drowsy you um >> it's it's not >> like I was very clear when I saw it and I spoke.
>> I'm not speaking about your experience man. Hey Reuben. Reuben stop man. I'm not talking about your experience. You were not in the middle of the desert.
I'm speaking about someone who is in the middle of the desert. He's so thirsty and he he he sees a lake >> and then they learned that oh wait that was false.
>> Do you think that that person was sleeping?
>> No. Right.
>> No.
>> So that means you can see something false even if you're not sleeping.
That's what I meant.
>> No.
>> What do you mean? No.
>> Because because of the environments.
because of the because Reuben Reuben Reuben that thing was false or not the the lake in the example it was false right and the person was sleeping or not >> Reuben this is simple >> not so what does that mean people can see false things even if they're not sleeping >> yeah but what You see, it's not no. You said no earlier. Yes, they can see false things even if they're not sleeping. So, how can I understand that you are not seeing something false? How can I know that?
>> I want to explain it, but the English is not so so bad. So, I think you don't understand it my point. Um really >> like um let's say you're in a desert and you said said I see water >> but it isn't there because of my uh because I'm very thirsty. I'm I'm literally I'm almost dying. Um it's a totally different thing that uh when you feel good and uh eat enough and everything and off the drugs and just clean.
It's totally different.
>> Okay, Reuben, I didn't say the same.
Reuben. Reuben. Man, you're so stubborn, man. It was just a very clear and simple statement. People can see false things even if they are not sleeping. Very simple, Reuben.
I don't understand why you are being so stubborn about a simple statement very simple people can see false things even if they're not sleeping and I gave you a very good example so my question was >> how can I how can I understand you were not seeing something false how can I know that I'm not saying that you have seen something false Reuben And please understand this. But I I'm I'm suspicious because why? I know that people can see false things.
And because I know this, that's why I'm suspicious.
>> Uh Robin, uh you're you're not joking, right, man? I gave you the example. The person the person who is not sleeping and he says, "Hey, uh there is a lake in front of us. That's why we're not drinking the water. They go there. There's no lake.
>> Yeah, that's false. Yeah, >> that that's false. Yeah, that's what what I mean. False. So, because I know this when people say, "Hey, I see something like this." Okay, I I'm being suspicious because I have never seen any ghosts before and I I don't see anyone around me. They believe that they have seen ghosts. So that's why I am suspicious about when I hear such kind of extraordinary claims. I say, "Hey, Reuben, how can I know that it was not a false thing?"
>> For you, >> I think for you, you can only believe when you see something.
>> But it can be false like the lake. So the person Reuben >> Reuben the person in my example also believed that there was a leak but it turned out to be false.
>> Yeah.
>> So it's not important only if you believe in something. We need to test it. We need other confirmation even.
>> Yeah. Oh, I know what I know what you mean. Um, but it's uh very hard. Um, when people see the lake, they not only believe, but they know they know it.
Believing is something you don't necessarily uh by yourself see it.
>> Yeah. Even if they claim to know it, it might be a false thing. Like the lake example, Reuben.
Anyway, Reuben. So, but you still didn't answer me. How can I know of you're not seeing something false? I didn't get an answer for that. If you're not giving >> You cannot. I cannot what >> you if you don't believe you cannot know.
>> Oh, it's about me not believing.
>> Really? So, for example, I don't believe in aliens means I can never know about aliens if they are real.
>> That's false, Reuben.
>> I I don't believe in aliens. That means I can never know about aliens if they're real.
>> No.
>> Really? Okay. Reuben.
>> No. I I No. I like um let's say I I let's say I'm believing in uh in God, but I've [snorts] never experienced God. So, I need to have something uh to believe in without seeing it.
you have never experienced God and >> and um but I let's say I want to believe and believe is something you don't know if it's true or not but you believe it's true.
>> Okay. And that doesn't mean it's true, right?
>> No, you believe it's true.
>> Yeah, you believe it's true, but that doesn't mean it's true. Remember my example? The person believed that there was a lake but it was not true. I mean there was no lake but the person believed >> but what what what do you know exactly what is true then?
>> Oh that's another topic and that's why I'm asking how do you know what you have seen was true? How did you confirm that only because you experienced something?
And I think that's not enough. Why?
Because again look back to the simple example. The person experienced to see a lake but there was no lake. And so then that means just experience it is not very enough to say that oh yeah that that's true but also something you we everybody can see. It's also uh your experience. So, what is the truth then?
>> What's the truth then? I don't know. I don't know what you're speaking about, but I don't know the answer of that question.
Okay, Reuben, you want to bring another argument?
>> No, you can uh I I I won't talk.
>> Okay, we have mechanical living again.
Okay, man. You should know that I'm not going to be the same level patience.
>> No, I I think I think you will enjoy me this time even more.
>> Uh because I'm going I'm going to continue what Reuben said. So I'm not going to change a lot. So we will we'll continue what we were talking about with Reuben, right? M >> so uh you know you gave the example of a of a hallucination like experience happening in a desert where the guy is thirsty and he's he's uh he's uh experiencing an oasis before him and that's not real in physical sense. So you're the question you ask is uh is it real or not real right? So uh they know you know.
>> No. Yeah. So so I did not give the answer. So first of all let's say we were uh there like let's let's imagine and we're there like a neutral observer.
This guy is there being thirsty and we can see that there's no OSS there. But inside that man's experience, see there's no inside and outside for his experience, you know, uh he is the experience himself >> of the body.
>> Yeah. So, so when when he when he >> because because uh Al because there was a lake inside his brain that means there was a lake outside of his brain.
>> No, no, no, no. It wasn't. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying. So you remember the other example I mentioned about an example where people fly in the in their dreams.
>> That's also inside the brain. We don't fly like that outside of our dreams, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. I think I think you were I think even though Reuben was there to uh you know uh prove God or or with with the God I thought your conversation was more deep you know because you were thinking about the dream state as well. So I think you know uh I want to ask you uh did you watch the last uh Harry Potter film?
>> No I didn't.
>> Okay. Okay. So so there's a point where Harry dies. All right. the main character dies. It's it's related to this uh and and uh he's he he meets uh his um like the the the head headmaster of Hogwarts who's Dumbledore and he he asks him if this experience is real or not. All right. So he asks him, "Uh, is it happening? Is it real or is it just happening inside my head?" So, uh, Dumbledore responds with, "Um, of course it's happening inside your head, Harry. But why on earth should that mean it's not real?"
All right.
>> Mhm.
>> So, I think ML again like this language is so shitty. Please like brush your language man. No, no, no. Please brush your language. Okay, it's not helping anything like you you are already confused about these topics and stop confusing yourself more. Yes, you are. I have never said that the experience is not real. The experience is real.
>> But the problem is >> Yeah. Yeah. But the the the problem is the experience that the person is having it doesn't match with the you know the external reality there outside of his body mind >> brain there is no lake >> but he imagined a lake so yeah it's real in inside his mind I don't have problem with that.
Yeah, but but it's affecting his his actions, you know, his his actions.
>> And yeah, imagine that, man. Imagine there is a cliff, but inside his brain there is no cliff. It's a nice path. And he keeps walking and he falls from the [ __ ] cliff and he dies. Why? Because he had false images about the external reality.
>> That's why he died.
>> So that's important. You cannot keep saying, "Okay, yeah, in his mind it was real." Yeah, in his mind it was real, but the external experience that doesn't match what he can see. That's a big problem.
>> Uh, okay. I I'll I'll just end with uh a really cool idea. Okay. Do you know about the sound?
>> Yeah, sound. We We hear a lot.
>> M, right? You hear a lot. So it's it's made of three letters uh A, U and M. All right. So the three letters are used to express three uh types of uh experiences. Uh a is like the A alphabet of uh the language. So A represents like uh the waking state like uh the the state where uh we know we're awake and we know there's a difference between like uh we can separate what's inside us and outside us. All right. Uh the second you is the dream state where we can't really make out what's uh inside and outside because uh you're the person experiencing the dream and you're the person who who's making the dream as well right in the dream state you and uh the last sentence M uh stands for the deep sleep where you don't have dreams you're just sleeping and you're not aware that you're alive or not because you don't know who you are because there's no you and everyone's just sleeping and heartbeating heart is beating by itself. All right.
Uh and then you wake up again and then it's uh same thing again and again. Oh, but but there's something which is outside these uh trinity which is the fourth state which is called the turya which is the realization that there's uh something that never changes even when all of these different types of experience state states changes there's something this there's a feeling of something not changing that's inside you to feel right there's something that's inside you uh which can connect you with the 15year-old Phil and the 24 year old Phil and the >> you went back to the same [ __ ] again and again you come to the same thing >> and I don't [ __ ] care when you say God equals realization. I don't care about that at all.
>> No, no, I I did not mean it.
>> You You mean that? Come on. You You think that? Okay. I'm not that clever, but I'm not that stupid also. Okay, you can you can put me in [ __ ] between.
Maybe a little bit down. I'm not sure where exactly, but I'm not in the bottom. Sure, I'm not on the top or even closer to top, but man, that that's what you're trying to get. It's obvious.
>> But, you know, I enjoy talking to you.
You know, I I just enjoy >> No, I don't. I'm sorry, but I don't.
>> [laughter] >> Um >> okay man uh not every subject is interesting for everybody. So when you say realization we realize ourselves or there is something inside >> and that realizes that's the thing that realizes things. I mean this language doesn't appeal.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Can I ask you something? I I'll just it's it's uh it's outside the topic. Have you have you experienced déjà vu? Have you ever >> Yeah, sure. Many times. Yeah.
>> Okay. So, how do you explain it what's happening?
>> Um, let's say I don't know. I want to see what you claim about that.
>> So, it's it's a feeling as if uh uh you're not experiencing a new moment, but you're remembering a memory.
>> We remember, right?
It feels like something remember a memory of a dream. Maybe >> remember a dream.
>> Memory of a dream.
>> Memory of a dream. Okay.
>> Yeah. It feels like that, you know. And it it just works because I'm using words to say that. But but you know what I mean when I said, "Have you experienced déjà vu?" And you said, "Yes."
It feels like >> it feels like everything works right.
And that's that's when you feel, oh, there must be some uh some way uh some some one way to get to all the ways, >> right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Again, you're on the same thing. Yeah. That someone is remembering things. Okay.
>> And do you think how many someone's can remember things?
How many someone's out there can remember like that?
>> I don't know man.
>> You don't know. That's the problem. So, and again I'm sorry man that's not interesting. Like the consciousness is a topic and it's it's a kind of related topic but it's a little bit far. Okay.
And because we are conscious it doesn't mean anything. We somehow have consciousness that's all.
Okay.
>> And you can't say therefore XY Z. And we're still studying, right? We're still studying how it works, how it emerges from material.
>> We don't know exactly very deeply. Like you know there are a lot of studies like they go even in the quantum level to explain consciousness like they're speaking about some nerves or what they call them. I even don't know.
But they say that something might work in the quantum level here that is causing some properties of consciousness. And you see how deep it goes down. Still people are studying and trying to make it clear, more understandable.
Yeah, we learned many. We're still learning. But that's it. We're not going further than that. For example, now I'm experiencing a deja right now. Exactly.
right now I I experience but it doesn't mean anything to me. Why? Because I I have spoken about these topics many times and when I'm speaking I I can just remember my other conversations about the same topic earlier and that's normal to me. We can remember we we smell something maybe it's perfume maybe it's is is food a flower then then memories just come right okay I mean that that's the brain it works like this and we know that but more than that what can we say nothing >> Reuben wants to speak more Yeah. Yeah.
>> Hey, Reuben.
>> If you want to kick me out. All right.
>> Let's see. Reuben.
>> Reuben is trying to join.
>> Yeah. Oh, Aman. Ammon, come on. I'm speaking at least. You could understand that I'm not there.
If Aman cannot understand that, that's really bad.
Yeah. Anyway, let's wait for maybe Reuben or maybe I'm going to create another room. But if you have questions, if you want to highlight them or if when I am busy with the mic then super chats memberships do the job. It's nearly 3 hours. Let me check my time. Okay, I still have like at least 1 hour people.
So if we will have speakers then we're going to have more people.
So yeah, I muted you because I'm not talking here. Reuben.
And why did you left why did you leave the platform that you joined earlier?
Okay.
Okay. Mel, if if nothing new, I'm going to move on to the other platform. Okay.
Are you there?
>> Are you asking me?
>> Yes. ML.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So I So you want to kick me out, right?
I'm not kicking, but I'm asking if you have something new, different, maybe.
>> Um, all right. Um, I I I'll join you and I'm I'm going to make you a believer the next time. I know.
>> Believer.
>> Believer.
>> Believer in in the true self that you are and and you are nothing but the present moment.
>> All right, man.
>> Okay. That that doesn't mean anything to me, man. I'm not interested into that.
You should know that >> you are now.
>> So, you're like a seller trying to sell something that I don't need.
>> See, I I'm I'm never I'm never buying what you're going to sell me. You know, >> I'm not trying to sell you anything.
That's the problem. You are You are the one who's trying to sell something to me. I'm the stationary one, man. I'm here.
>> If you were not here, I would I would not be speaking to you.
>> All right, man.
>> Believe in good faith. Okay. Yeah. I appreciate the good faith. It's not about >> I mean good faith.
>> Okay. Take care, man.
>> Yeah, man. Bye. Bye-bye.
Uh before leaving, let's check this room. Okay, Reuben, get your mic, man.
You wanted the mic.
Welcome back.
I'd like to to uh discuss because uh I'm like also a non-believer, but I'm just like to discuss things because of my English, but also >> I'm sorry.
>> I like this uh platform.
>> Reuben. Yeah, I I know what you like right now, but you should also learn what I like. And what I like is written in the welcome message.
>> I wish you could check it.
>> What?
>> And that's another problem. I also like things and some of those I I I wrote down in the welcome message. For example, it says that only believers.
So I don't know how can you >> translate that.
>> If you click on the screen you will see that click on my profile.
>> Anyway we have Javi. Hello Javi.
>> Uh hello.
>> Hello Javi. I hope you are a believer.
>> Uh I'm a Hindu.
>> Okay very good. You your age is over 18.
>> Yes.
Okay. So, we're live on YouTube. You should know that. And why do you believe in God exists? We're debating about God's existence.
>> Uh I think God is consciousness.
>> God is consciousness.
Uh okay. That I'm not interested in, man. I see a lot of consciousness around me like like 8 billion 8 billion people have consciousness and to me it's not interest they're interesting some of them some of them are really annoying I know that I'm not into that okay >> yeah I think consciousness is fundamental to reality and to to the universe science cannot explain the emergent of consciousness >> that doesn't mean anything it only means it cannot explain it properly that's all >> you cannot add adopt more things when you don't know something okay you should say I don't know >> yes but you it could also be the consciousness is fundamental to reality >> fundamental to real we don't know that also >> uh but it could be because we cannot explain consciousness >> because we cannot explain something that doesn't mean it's fundamental >> uh means Then you have to prove that only >> I don't have to prove anything. It's your job. If you claim that it's fundamental, it's your job. But you didn't do that. We just don't know how it works exactly or in detail. That's all. That doesn't mean anything more than that. You cannot create arguments from ignorance, Javi.
That's a logical mistake.
I don't know. Therefore, it is this that. No, I don't know means I don't know. Don't say more things on that.
Um, yeah, that's that's it. Welcome dragon.
So, yep people Javi, let's try one more time.
>> But uh how can you explain matter having subjective experience?
>> I don't need to Javi. I I just explained you Jav Jav please man I I just said it clearly many times I even repeated that annoyingly that because we don't know something that only means we don't know you cannot say more than that >> yes you cannot explain that that's all >> yes but there there should be a possibility of fundamental ring being uh consciousness being fundamental >> okay but but there's no any possibility that the the Javi Javi isn't there any possibility that consciousness come from matter?
Isn't Isn't there any possibility like that also?
>> Yes, it's a emergent of matter.
>> Very good. Very good. So, which one is the case?
>> Okay. But if it's a emergent, it's not magic, right? Consciousness doesn't appear like like magic. There must be something fundamental to that.
>> Yeah. matter. It comes from matter.
Maybe matter is fundamental.
>> Okay. Then how do you know that? You you said something.
>> We don't know. How do you know that consciousness is fundamental? You don't know that also. And that's why I said Javi that's why I said because we [ __ ] don't know. We should say we don't know. Only we don't know. You can't say I don't know therefore it's fundamental. You can't say that.
I cannot say I don't know therefore matter is fundamental for consciousness.
I cannot say that also. So what we say Javi what we say we don't know that's all. Uh so there is an interesting philosophy in Hinduism where this guy says I don't know I don't know but it adds up to a list that I don't know but you are claiming that there is no God when you don't know at least be agnostic.
>> No no false don't lie here Jabby >> that's not nice. That's not nice. I I kick ban liars. You should know that.
>> That's not nice.
>> Why did I lie? You said you claim that there is no god. False.
>> Okay. You so you so you believe in a god.
>> That doesn't mean I believe in a god.
You see, you're not able to translate in a good way.
>> Okay. So, you're agnostic.
>> I'm an agnostic non-believer. I cannot say I believe a god exists. But that doesn't mean there is no god.
>> Okay. [snorts] So, here's the thing. Is there a possibility that fundamental uh uh conscious consciousness can be fundamental?
>> Yeah, there is. So what?
>> Okay. Thank you so much.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and I also that thank you so much Jerry when you say it's possible that matter can be fundamental for >> possible that can be fundamental.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Good. So which one is the case? Do you know that?
>> Yes. I think it's consciousness.
>> You don't know that.
>> You don't know that.
>> Either neither do you.
>> Yeah. That's why I'm not claiming any [ __ ] thing. But you are the one who's claiming something, Jabby. Okay. You you you literally said matter is fundamental.
>> I didn't say that. I said is it also possible that matter is fundamental? You said yes. So if both are possible, how do you know which one is the case?
>> Uh we can assume things uh because we cannot uh prove the emergence of consciousness by matter.
>> [ __ ] off Javi. I many times explained you that you cannot create arguments from your ignorance. When you say I don't know that means you don't know.
You can't say oh therefore this we can imag yeah yeah we can imagine both but which one it comes from matter it comes from consciousness which one you don't know if you say both are possible they cannot be you know the reality at the same time either that one or that one which one you don't have any argument you keep saying that oh I don't know therefore it might be okay You don't know. Therefore, it might not be also. And you don't you don't think about that. And that's crazy.
That's crazy.
Yeah. Horatio, you you want to take the call, Horatio?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. I'll get some water.
>> Who am I talking to?
>> Yes.
>> You're talking to Javi.
>> Yeah. So he said that it might be both be possible but he's like denying the possibility of consciousness being fundamental. I don't know why he's denying that. Okay, matter can also be fundamental. I do agree that but you're also saying that oh it might not be consciousness but you cannot agree to disagree but this position is neutral.
Both can be possible.
He's saying that there is no nothing positive you can say about either one.
He's allowing the possibility for consciousness to be fundamental. He's allowing He's allowing the possibility that matter is fundamental. He's not choosing either one. He does not know.
>> Yes. Uh I I want to say one thing. When you dream, if you're dreaming, right, you you are talking to a girl and when you wake up, the girl is also you in the dream.
Just like that, in reality, there must be one fundamental consciousness that we are all connected to. We are part of that consciousness.
>> Take the analogy of the dream. It's very simple. And matter cannot have subjective experience. It's it's a it's is non-given thing like scientists cannot solve it. Uh you cannot make uh from white uh from black brick to white brick you cannot have like a orange brick. It's it's impossible >> job. My my uh opinion on consciousness you uh what what scientists tell us is that the brain is extremely complicated sophisticated.
>> I do agree with you.
>> Yeah. You have somewhere between 86 billion and 100 billion neurons active and firing. You create because each neuron interacts more than once, sometimes up to 10,000 uh connections at a time, you actually have somewhere in the quadrillion synapses firing every second. I don't know if you've ever heard these numbers, but they're they're astounding.
>> Yes. Uh I I did study about consciousness. The problem is you uh if I take a white brick and a black brick and if I make it so complex, I will still arrive with a black brick or a white brick. But consciousness is different. Consciousness have a subjective thing which can arrive to uh a a orange brick or a pink brick. That is the whole thing just like a molecule of a of water right H and O you can emerge it you get wetness I do get that but the wetness we can understand wetness like it it doesn't have any subjective uh thing but consciousness do have subjective thing you cannot have an objective like brain giving you a subjective thing you cannot have that and that's a that's the crux of the argument. You cannot have uh immediate emergent >> unless consciousness is fundamental.
>> Yeah, I'm not really following you.
Consciousness is a a process of perceiving data and it can do it correctly or the data that you receive >> like like I said it can either be done correctly or falsely >> okay I I don't think you get what is consciousness can you explain it to me >> it's an awareness of that >> yes it it's not your memories it's not your uh what do you say happiness or anything it's just experiencing something that you are aware it it doesn't has to do with your uh what do you say memories or happiness or sadness or anything. It's just if I even remove your memories, you are still you because you experience this uh I exist.
So I I think consciousness is something that science cannot explain no matter what.
>> Uh because you're trying to understand something which has subjective experience and matter cannot solve that.
Well, at the moment they cannot explain it.
>> Means this is the this is the time time gaps of the argument like evolution. Oh, if you give enough time we can prove it.
Oh, if we give enough time we can prove consciousness. Oh, if we give enough time we can prove origin of life. But time is running out bro. You're just saying uh I don't know it means >> time time is not running out. There has always been in human history a time where we could not explain something.
But as long as we don't disappear, as long as we continue to look and try to understand, we find that eventually we come to understand that's how we explained all the phenomenon that phenomena that we see where I think >> yeah I think science is limited and our brain is limited. science >> limited in in any given moment it's limited but it it it is open to continuing reception. So it there is progress that will always be made if you continue to be receptive to your environment. That's how we learn things.
>> Yes, I do agree with that. I think science can describe things. It's very good at describing things. But that the I think science is also very very limited. It cannot prove everything.
>> Shavei shavei it's limited in any given moment.
>> Yes. And not only that I think our brain also is limited.
>> Uh >> well well listen listen the brain is so complex. I'm not going to uh uh um predict whether it's limited or not.
It's it's an open reception. It's a continuing path of acquiring knowledge.
This path, this path, as long as you're alive, does not get closed. It's always open. So, it has the possibility to expand its knowledge all the time.
>> Yes. Uh the reason I say the brain is limited is like when you look at an apple, the apple is not exactly red.
It's the absence of the red that makes apple red. And the apple when you look in when you look from our eyes, it's upside down. But our brain makes it straight. So whatever you see, it only comes from your five senses.
>> Okay. So >> So you you cannot grasp the whole reality from our five senses. Animals have more senses than humans.
>> Yeah, they do.
>> We understand.
>> Yeah. And Yeah. I let me complete uh and I think like brain is limited. I think we cannot grasp all reality by by our only five senses. Uh I think science is also limited. Uh uh as you can see our brain thinks that we have free will but we don't actually do we we think >> did you say did you say free will?
>> Yes. I means like you guys don't believe in free will, right? Like you think everything is daytime or night.
>> So our brain is like >> wait wait wait wait wait.
If you ask me about free will >> I will say I will say that technically you can make the case that there's no free will because your brain forms a brain state before you are even aware of your thought.
>> Yes. Exactly. But there is an illusion of a free will right in our in our lives that everyone thinks that we have free will but actually we don't. You think time is real but our brain makes it real. Time is not real. Time is not a thing but our brain makes it a thing. So >> but your brain is a physical thing making it real.
>> Yes. Exactly. And I think like our brain can our brain is limited and we cannot grasp the whole reality of the universe.
Uh just like my dog watching a TV, it can understand what is going on in House of Dragons. Like it can see dragons but it can't really understand what's going on. Just like that my dog I can see reality but I cannot fully grasp it.
>> So my question is to you can we understand God?
>> Uh means like you have to define what is God according to you because I think God is pure consciousness. the ultimate reality and I think we are taking part in his reality. uh like a observer. We are the observer and observer. We are both we are part of this universe my brothers. We are not different from this universe. We are part of this matter and everything. We are universe looking at universe.
>> There are a lot of mistakes a lot of mistakes that are going on.
>> How how can you squeeze a lot of mistakes into you know two sentences man? Come on.
>> Okay. Uh can you point out one mistake I made?
>> Yeah, because you you say there is an ultimate reality. It doesn't mean it has to be conscious or consciousness.
>> Uh so wait, how do you grasp reality?
>> Why are you changing that? Like you're making a statement which is unjustified.
It's just a claim.
>> Okay, my brother.
>> It's not different than I'm made of gold. I know my brother when you say there must be not any consciousness. How do you grasp reality?
>> Uh we didn't say there's no any consciousness Javi like why why you are twisting what I said >> my brother. How do you grasp reality?
How do you experience reality?
>> Because we have the consciousness and awareness.
>> Thank you.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. We have and that doesn't mean consciousness is the ultimate reality.
>> Okay. I I will let me explain why I think it's ultimate reality.
>> Yeah. Go on.
>> Without anything what you experience, it must come from consciousness.
>> Anything you experience, it must come from consciousness.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Experience must come from consciousness but not other things.
Okay. So, yes, experience is coming from consciousness. I agree on that. But that doesn't mean that it's the only thing that exists.
>> Okay. So, let me let me elaborate. Uh, you you you're stating that it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist.
>> What doesn't exist? Wait, stop. What doesn't exist? I said >> consciousness. The ultimate consciousness.
>> Uh, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. You said that ultimate reality is consciousness. And I said, "How can you say that?" And you're not able to prove it.
>> I Let me prove it. Okay.
>> I I let you, but you couldn't.
Let me talk, bro. Like I I I like the other guy.
>> I just let you, but you didn't explain.
>> So, let me explain. Why? Why? Why?
>> Why should I trust you this time?
>> Okay. So, let me explain. Why do I think there is an ultimate reality of consciousness?
>> Ultimate reality of consciousness.
>> Yes.
>> Wait, wait, wait, wait. That sounds different than what you said earlier.
You said ultimate reality is consciousness. That's what you said earlier.
>> Yes. The ultimate reality is consciousness.
>> Okay. Yeah, prove it.
>> So, whatever you experience in your life, anything what you experience, it comes from your consciousness.
>> Okay. And >> Okay. So, let me complete my brother.
>> And Okay. So, let me >> Don't cry. I just said end. Why you crying? I just said end. Why you crying?
>> I'm not crying. I I know you're trying to rage beat me, but this is not a genuine >> Explain. Okay. Okay. So we are there must be a fundamental consciousness a universal consciousness.
>> It must be that's an assumption. You're now proving that.
>> Okay. Can you prove that matter is the only uh source of >> don't don't shift the burden of the proof. You claim that ultimate reality is consciousness and now you're assuming that there must be.
>> So you see >> okay do you know what the circle of reasoning Javi?
>> Okay. So you know what you're trying to do. Neither you're taking Neither [laughter] you're taking side of a matter. Neither you're takingight of a conscious.
>> I don't have to I don't have to I don't have there's no such an obligation.
There's no rule that you have to choose a side about this [ __ ] topic. There's no any rule like that.
>> Can we be respectful and Okay. So let me explain why I think there must be a fundamental contest.
>> There must be.
>> Okay. Yeah. Go on. Explain.
>> So whatever you experience in reality, it must come from consciousness. So consciousness is fundamental to know anything.
>> To know anything. Okay. Okay. Yeah. It it is fundamental. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It is fundamental to know something. You can't say it's fundamental for existence of the universe and matter, energy, whatever.
You cannot say that. Okay.
>> Wait, wait. How can you say that it's not fundamental? You cannot deny that.
Javi, I don't think you understand English.
>> No, no, you are denying that consciousness is not fundamental.
>> I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
Stop lying again.
>> Stop lying. Stop lying, Jerry. Jerry, you're not nice. You're not nice, man.
Stop lying. So, you said consciousness is fundamental to experience something.
And I said yes to that.
>> I said yes to that.
>> That doesn't matter. Let's say everything to experience everything.
Yeah. You need the consciousness. Okay.
awareness, whatever [ __ ] that thing is you're saying. Yeah. It's only fundamental to that subject. You can't say that it's fundamental to to for for the existence of the universe or other things or whatever.
>> Wait, wait, wait. If no humans exist on the planet, are there still matter?
Matter exist?
>> You don't know that.
>> Exactly.
>> Exactly. That's why that's why you cannot say like consciousness is the fundamental thing. You can't. That's why you cannot say why because you don't know and you just accepted that you don't know. So you should just say I don't know. Like I keep saying that Jamie. It's so simple. When you say I don't know, you should stop there. But you you're not stopping. You're going one step further. You're saying wait.
Consciousness must be the fundamental thing for everything. No, not for everything. It's for your experience.
Yeah, it's fundamental. We can say that it's fundamental for your experience. So what? That's all. That's all. And other things you don't know that you should say I don't know. Javi be be honest about that. But anyway, hey John Palacy, welcome.
Uh I'm bored. Horatio, I don't know if you think you're enjoying with Javi.
I'll give more 10 minutes.
>> Well, you did uh bring up one interesting topic. before humans before biology was present on the earth where wasn't there things happening uh in reality you didn't need consciousness >> if I say he believes none of that them happens but he will say no this guy is lying but he believes that consciousness is fundament so that means the consciousness prior to biology that's what he thinks indeed I'm not sure that that's what he think because he was about to enter that.
>> That's what he thinks.
>> If I ask, he will say no. I know that.
But but he he's leaning towards there.
>> Well, I want to ask him directly.
>> Go 10 minutes for Horatio and Jabi.
>> Not not even not even 10 minutes. This guy give me one second. Uh I will answer your question, but this guy is >> Okay. harass you.
>> You see like he's not talking to you.
>> I'm gonna I'm gonna try to shut him up for a minute so I can get my question in. Just >> Okay, but he should be he should be okay. Like if he wants to talk to you, it's okay. But he if he's going to cry about me, I'm not going to allow him.
>> Yeah, I know. I'm going to get him to stop doing that. It's >> okay. One more time. Let's try.
>> Javi, >> I think it's wast. Go ahead. answer your let let me uh ask you a question.
>> All right. Before biology was on this planet, right? There's no biology on the planet. Therefore, there's no uh there's nothing conducting consciousness. It's just rocks, mountains, water. Do you do you agree? Do you agree that there's no consciousness before biology comes or do you think there's always some level of consciousness?
>> No.
>> Even to say rocks exist, you're your >> before before biology.
>> Yes.
>> Before before biology, you said rocks exist, right? So that is the law of identity. You are referring something.
Without consciousness, you cannot reference anything.
I don't know what you think you're saying. All I'm saying is reality. What I'm saying, Javi, is reality exists even before consciousness.
There is a reality that exists.
>> Uh okay. So when you say reality again, you're identifying uh the law of identity. So >> it's not that complicated.
>> Okay. If we don't exist.
>> Okay. If we don't exist, nothing exists.
>> What?
>> Yeah.
>> Say it again.
>> If we don't exist, there is no reference to name anything.
>> Yeah. Because you're not there to reference it.
>> Yeah. Names don't exist.
>> Good. Names don't exist. Doesn't mean things don't exist.
>> Meaning reference doesn't exist. So when you claim rocks exist before humans, how are you getting this law of identity of rocks?
>> Because we know that they existed before we came.
>> No, you you are priing consciousness observer to tell rocks exist.
>> We know from evidence that rocks existed before we ever got here.
>> So wait, do you think rocks have consciousness?
I I I that's an interesting question because consciousness seems to emerge from matter and that's all we are is >> okay okay very good very good so does atoms have consciousness >> I I don't know Javi I don't know if you can say that I don't know >> okay so if if atoms doesn't have consciousness and if you emerge atom in a certain way like a magic consciousness just appear wow >> I I want to I want to just say one thing, Javi. Uh when you when you uh have an emergent property, >> yes, the things that are emerging to create that property, they don't have the emergent property in and of themselves. It's when they come together that an emergent property then comes into >> I I like to talk with you. You are asking very good question. when and a H and O if you if you bunch if you mix this atoms it gives you wetness but the wetness is in your consciousness it's not real our brain is not directly interacting with the wetness so the wetness is just wait so the wetness is just >> I don't see I don't see Javi I don't see any real real cloud >> okay let let me explain so the wetness is in your head is it's just how the molecules behave. It's not it's it's not wet. The the wetness is in your consciousness. And whatever the wetness is, it's not subjective. It's it's it's objective. No matter how how atoms arrange H2 arrange, it's still water.
It's it still has the wetness. Unlike our brain, it doesn't have like a uh what do you say a conscious experience.
Javi, my position is that consciousness is a way to perceive reality. It does not create reality. It's a way to perceive it. That's my position.
>> Okay. So, you're saying but you cannot prove it, right? Matter is fundamental.
Like how can you prove it? Do you think rocks have the atoms have consciousness?
I think an emergent property of consciousness comes from a uh complex organization of matter.
>> Yes. So if I take like a pink brick and a orange brick, no matter how complex I build the building, it will it will never have like a white brick. No matter what >> Javi science cannot prove it.
>> You're going against science. job, I understand. Look, anytime you say that science cannot prove it, that's a that's a challenge for science to continue to investigate. That's all.
>> I think it's time of the gap.
>> Yeah. What it's what time of the gaps?
>> Yes. Because everything what I say oh later we can prove this consciousness and I can say later we can prove God.
Javi, that is how we explained everything in the matter in the course of time. That's how we exp Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
>> We once did not know what lightning was.
We thought it was Zeus or some god. We didn't know. But in time, we learned what it was. That's how it works. So now you're presenting me with another problem. And I'm telling you in time hopefully we will learn it.
>> Yes. So to look at reality we don't know how our body functions. We don't know where we are in the universe like exactly. We don't know nothing. We don't don't even know what will happen next moment. We don't know. Life is uncertainty >> question.
>> And and you certainly claim or you certainly believe that there is no god.
That is fatacia. like literally palatia because when you don't know that there's no >> by the way five minutes is over Horatio I'm sorry it's already seven minutes >> and Javi I keep saying don't lie here >> it was very nice talking >> don't try to shift the burden of the proof Javi you cannot also prove that conscious consciousness is fundamental fundamental to everything you're not able to prove that you failed you said let me let me let me explain you couldn't explain you failed every time when you tried to explain okay so You don't know also. He doesn't know also.
And you should say, "Ah, we don't know."
Period. I don't understand why you make things so complicated.
>> Wait, wait, wait. Do you exist, philosopher? Do you exist?
>> Yeah, I exist. Yeah.
>> Okay. Can you give me an empirical proof that you exist? A scientist?
>> No, I cannot. So what? So that means I don't exist. So So that means I don't exist.
>> I think I got you. There is no evidence to prove everything. Therefore, >> yeah, that's why you you shouldn't claim things about this topic. So this topic is a topic that yeah you you claim that consciousness is fundamental to all reality. So that's your claim and you're not able to prove that. I'm saying that don't claim it. Okay.
>> Okay. How do I prove it?
>> Prove what?
>> Prove what?
>> Consciousness is fundamental >> of of what?
>> Of reality.
>> Uh how can you prove that?
>> Okay. By science, right? You're taking empirical evidence.
>> Okay, good. Like did you did you prove it so far? No, >> no. That's the thing. I cannot even prove that I exist.
>> Okay. So, so, okay. So, you're saying that you cannot prove that which one is fundamental? That's what you're saying, Javi.
>> Wait, no. I'm >> Are you saying that you cannot prove which one is fundamental?
>> Philosopher. You're manifesting. Let me talk. What I'm trying to say is very simple. You are asking me an evidence uh of consciousness being fundamental >> because you're claiming it. Yeah.
>> Yes. I'm saying there is no evidence.
Then why you claiming that? Then why you claiming that? Then why you claiming that Javi? You accept that you don't have any evidence for that. For the claim, then why you claim that?
>> Neither do I have an evidence that I exist.
>> Okay.
>> It doesn't mean that I don't exist.
>> Exactly.
>> Yes. Very good. You accept it, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. You think you don't have you don't have Yeah. Good. Very good. You don't you don't have any evidence that you exist. Very good. Yeah. Very good.
>> Really? Okay. Cool.
>> So, this guy thinks that he doesn't exist.
>> You have a you have a direct experience of your own existence. You can't prove it to anyone else, but you have a direct evidence of of your experience.
>> That's some evidence that can make you think that yeah, at least you [ __ ] exist. So, maybe you should listen about some Deart.
>> Yes.
Yeah, Ruben, >> I followed you, Javi. Maybe we'll talk again. Maybe we'll talk again. Javi, I followed you.
>> Reuben, what's your question, man?
>> Oh, um, so we don't know anything really.
>> I think that's also a bold claim. We know a lot of things.
No, >> it was just a question.
>> Okay, then the answer is we know a lot of things and we don't know many things.
Okay.
>> I think he's a big fan of I think he's a big fan of Deepo Chopra.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why like it that comes to my ears very choppy. So we have Olivia. Okay. Sister, I hope you have read the pinned link so that maybe we can save some time.
Olivia.
Hey.
>> Okay. You're not Olivia Ruben. I'm sorry. Please.
>> Olivia.
>> Oliva. I'm sorry. Olivia, we're live on YouTube and I hope you're over 18.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Oliva, obviously you're a Muslim sister.
>> Yeah, I'm Muslim.
>> Okay. And I'm an atheist who doesn't believe in your God and other gods. If they don't claim their gods are the universe, the sun, the moon, or an animal that we know. So if that's not the case, I don't believe in any god. So then we are debating God's existence. So why do you believe Allah is real?
>> Well, u I believe in God and I'm a religious person by the way. And the thing is um I'm the person who are not you know willing to deviate in someone who actually don't believe in God and only and my personal opinion is um you your belief is your my belief is mine um end of the day we you are human being we need peace and we actually if okay suppose you live in this world right you came somewhere um and uh go somewhere and we don't know what actually uh where we are before our born and where we will go after our death. So is it >> uh no we need is he optimistic person stop saying false things come on I know where I go when I die. Well why the hell you're saying something false?
>> Sorry I don't get you get >> I know where I go after I die.
>> Okay. Where you >> under the ground most likely.
under the >> ground you know people buried in dead bodies.
>> Why you okay? Okay. Um we are human being came in this world. Okay. Why you were uh why you are not any uh cow or any dog or you are not any cat or anything else?
>> I'm not a cat.
>> You have the brain.
>> Yeah. Why you not? Did you ask yourself I don't have any knowledge. not an animal.
>> I think you are a >> you are a >> Okay. Okay. Why? Why? Why? Why Allah is not a cat?
>> It's not like that.
>> Why Allah is not a cat?
>> Do you think the question makes sense, Oliva? You're just saying no. It's not a yes or no question. Why Allah is not a cat?
>> Okay, then I I'm the human. Okay, Olivia. Then Oliva, >> I'm the human. That's why I'm not a cat.
Okay.
>> You are just You are human. You are That's why you are That's why I'm not a cat. Yeah, I'm a human. That's why I'm not a cat.
>> That's why that's why that's why you very good. Now, we agree. Very good.
Very simple. You see, >> uh I answered your question and you answered my question. Thank you.
>> Okay.
>> So, but but what was the use of asking that question? Because that question was really unnecessary. Why you are not a cat or dog?
>> No. Simple because I'm a human.
>> You are a philosopher, right? You're a philosopher. You I I accept expect from you that you have the you know depth of my word. I said not like you are not it's not like it's actually you need to say again. Let me clarify this thing.
>> Yeah. that is thing that's thing uh I want to share I want to share with you that as a human being we have a a journey so we came this world for a I mean any reason whatever it is okay you are I don't I actually don't want to debate with you but it's a simple concept we are human being we have our you know we we have this ability to who to divide the good thing is it good or That right. But >> so we came here for a journey.
>> For a journey.
>> We came here for a journey. Yeah.
Journey.
>> You can't say that the phrasing is is bothering Olivia. But yes, we we humans have a journey here. I accept that. So what? So what?
>> Yeah. We have this we for we came this world because we have a journey.
>> H you can't say because we have a journey. No. Oliva >> from Oliv.
You can't say we came for a journey.
Yes, we have a journey. That doesn't mean we came for a journey. Oliva, please like be careful about phrasing things.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> Okay. But so what? Yeah, we have a journey here and that doesn't mean anything else. That doesn't mean Allah is real.
They have a reason why you came here and the reason is Allah Allah they believe >> yeah the reason why I came here because my father and mother they had sex that's why I came here >> I know that but >> it doesn't say anything about any god like that doesn't mean god exists because yeah there is a reason why I'm here okay I know the reason it's clear obvious my parents and they had sex and human humans are living beings that they and reproduce. We know that and that's why there are other human beings coming and we know that humans are dying also and we know that we are going to die because of that. So but but what I mean that's all Olivia you cannot say more than that.
>> Okay. Um I I don't need to prove to you cuz you are not believer but as a person you say no I don't want to um I don't want to debate with you because uh the thing is thing is cuz you are not believer and if I say anything to you >> you don't have to debate with believers and I don't I don't want I don't want >> you don't need to debate with believers so that that's why there are debates someone doesn't believe someone believes That's why there are debates. If you don't want to debate with me, don't don't steal my time. Okay? But I'm here for debate and that's obvious. Like look at the topic debating God existence and you're saying that I don't want to debate with you about God. That doesn't make any sense, sister. And we exist, we do things, we we come here, we have a journey. None of them prove a God exists. None of them.
So that's why it's unnecessary to talk about those things.
Anyway, I'm jumping to the last room.
Um, gentlemen here.
That's going to be the last room because I don't have time.
Uh, yeah, we have a journey, but that doesn't mean someone said, "Hey, let me send this guy to have a journey."
He can't ask you that. Welcome met up.
Okay. V. You change your profile picture or what?
By the way, we should adjust the mic of her ratio.
>> Yeah, he's he's low.
>> Yeah, he changed his mic. You remember?
>> Yeah. Um, so maybe he should increase the gain.
So, but the other guy was very loud. I accept that. It was bothering me also. I kept decreasing, but I don't think I have to go till down all the way down. Horatio. Uh, man, your mic is low for us.
Can we fix that?
Yeah, Metatronos, you're late. I don't have much time anymore. We have Muhammad.
No, it's Mortal. Okay.
Yeah, mortal is speaking to other mortals.
No, I don't hear you. Oh, yeah. I hear you.
>> Yep. Horatio.
All right, I want just wanted to give you my quick impression of Streamyard.
It seemed like there was a lot of people with uh things to say, so I thought it was a good platform to visit. No, >> no, no, it's not a platform like free for talk. It's a streaming platform and uh I don't know like which people you have seen there.
>> Well, when I came in, that's when I started seeing them and they were you know it seemed like yesterday people yesterday. Yeah.
>> Oh, okay. Yesterday they jump from YouTube. Horatio.
>> I share the link and they come from YouTube. It's not Streamyard.
>> Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.
>> Yeah.
>> You can think like I mean uh you can think like this horatio. It's a free for talk room but apart from no one see the room. Okay.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. Uh unless you share the link of the room. The only thing I didn't like about it, and this will come as no surprise to you, is that you kept everybody backstage while it was just you talking to them.
>> Okay. The thing is, uh, it's hard streaming here. I mute everybody.
They're on the stage. Still, they're on the stage, but you cannot do that on that platform.
>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, >> that could be a problem for me.
>> You know, we don't want many people speaking at one time.
And that's why people are waiting.
>> Yeah, but uh Horatio, you should increase the gain of that mic.
>> Um Okay. And I'm not talking directly into it. It's my fault.
>> Can you hear me? Okay.
>> It's a little bit louder. Yeah. But >> but wouldn't bother probably if it was more.
>> I'll do the best I can.
>> Okay.
>> Well, that's at least better.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I wasn't talking directly in my fault.
>> Okay, maybe we should have warned that earlier, but yeah, it was a little bit hot.
We have Elenni. Maybe it's going to be our last, maybe my last debate today, but yeah, I should thank everybody again for being here. Thank you so much moderators and hey people how did nightboat was I mean it was doing today nightboat if it's okay I'm going to keep it like this for a while but I need the feedback [clears throat] nightboat yeah uh we started using nightboat to help moderators here and I hope it can work properly but some people said yesterday it's not working good all the time and Huan welcome and Lenny is not speaking and we are just atheists together again please do debate But at the end of the day, I'm optimistic. My friend by says Oliva Reed and welcome Ollie.
Oliva and Ollie.
Um, please do debate. Yes, I'm going to debate. I like it.
I like the topic. Hey, Nightbo.
>> Hey, Elenny.
>> How are you doing?
>> I'm doing okay. But it was today also nice. I mean yeah so far I enjoyed yesterday was better but today was not bad. I cannot complain.
>> I see.
>> And you don't believe God's existence?
>> That's true. Yep.
>> Okay. Congratulations.
>> What?
[laughter] >> I I believe >> you believe God. Yes.
Okay, Lenny, >> we are live on YouTube. You should know that before you start.
>> I mean, you already started, but yeah, before it's late, you should know that we are live on YouTube. You sound like over 18, but let's have the confirmation.
>> Ah. Uh, no, no, I'm over 18, but I didn't know it's uh live.
>> People don't read. That's the problem.
Do you see welcome message anywhere on your screen?
>> Okay. Okay. I'm going to turn off my microphone. [laughter] >> Oh, because it's live if you don't mind.
Okay.
>> It's okay. We cannot force anyone. I cannot open your mic if you turn off.
>> I mean, even if I could do that, I wouldn't do that. That's so crazy.
[laughter] >> Okay.
>> I don't believe you.
>> You don't believe me?
I'm not a believer.
>> You're not a believer. I I muted you a lot of times when you were talking to other people. So means I respect your privacy horatio. That that could be a good evidence for that. But maybe not enough.
>> Not enough.
>> Um okay. I cannot argue on that because it's subjective.
So okay. Eleni is a believer who doesn't want to speak on YouTube. I'm checking high local. I don't see people and yep. So yeah, the consciousness guy.
Oh my god.
>> Oh my goodness.
>> Yeah. How you should know that he will not be able to join the room when I'm in the room. You said you followed him, >> right?
>> But you you have seen what he said before leaving the room.
What did he say? I I might have missed it. What did he say?
>> It's it's waste of time to talk to this guy.
So then I I'm helping him in case he wants to join the room. He will not be able to join anymore.
Yeah, >> maybe I'll catch him in another room.
>> Oh, really? [laughter] >> Yeah. You were losing it by the way, Horatio. You were losing it. You were very close to that.
He came in from YouTube. Is that correct?
>> No.
>> So then why can't I find him in another room?
>> Oh, you can. No, I didn't say you cannot. You can.
>> Oh, >> yeah.
>> So why am I losing it?
>> Oh, I don't know. I mean >> that I want to continue to talk to him.
Is that why I'm losing it?
>> No. No. Why you were losing it? because you were irritated a lot. I could I could hear that.
>> Well, I just wanted to make sure I was making myself clear before he continued.
That's all. I wasn't really aggravated with him. I was okay.
>> That was not manageable.
>> Yeah, it was tough. A little tough.
>> Yeah. Anyway, so since we are now having people maybe Oh, we have Shank.
Okay. Shank. Seemingly we are going to close with Shank.
Hey, Shank. Long time no join.
Hi there.
You're not audible, man. You should know that >> if you try to speak. Yes, you are audible.
>> Yeah. Uh I just uh want to say that uh I am so ignorant. I'm learning a lot. So >> I gotta run, Phil. I'll talk to you later. Take care, man. All right.
>> Okay. Shank, come on, man. You didn't have to have the mic to say that we are learning together. Okay. For example, you see, we we keep having people from other channels, other YouTubers. They come here, we learn from them, and we learn together. That That's good. I I'm happy that people are from other places, they're learning from this channel also.
Um I'm happy to hear that. Thank you.
>> Thanks, mate.
>> Thank you. Okay, guys. Um, I think this is the end of today's show. It's nearly 4 hours. Okay, cool.
So, yeah, tomorrow probably I will be here.
Uh, but in case not, have a good day. Have a good week, a month, a year, a life. Take care. I love you all.
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