The Disturbing Truth Behind Malena | Monica Bellucci's Most Powerful Role

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[00:00:00]Hi, I'm Christina and welcome to Crispy Talk, a place where we unpack the conversations people are secretly obsessed with but rarely dare to have openly. Through films, we break down power, desire, female sexuality, human behavior, relationships, and the darker psychology hiding it all. Because movies, guys, are never just entertainment. And today's film explores one of the darkest sides of human nature, Melena, starring Monica Beluchcci. Why do people destroy what they secretly admire? Why does society punish women for being desired? And why are we women often turn against each other? Today I'm joined by a very special guest, Jaceline, co-founder of Hedon Tribe, a pleasure ccentric e-commerce store and a sex and intimacy educator. Hello, Jacqueline. How are you feeling today?

[00:00:53]>> Yeah, I'm feeling great. And honestly, I'm so excited to unpack this movie because there's so much to talk about.

[00:01:00]>> I'm so happy to have you here.

[00:01:02]>> Thank you.

[00:01:03]>> So, let's dive in. Uh, you watched the movie.

[00:01:06]>> I did.

[00:01:07]>> If you had to describe it in a few words, what would you say?

[00:01:12]>> It was riveting. It was thoughtprovoking, but I think it's so necessary even in this time. Although it was set in 1940s, a lot more of a fast kind of like society environment that we were it was placed back then, but I feel like even to date, we still have a lot of catching up to do.

[00:01:32]>> Absolutely. And we will talk a lot about it today.

[00:01:35]>> Before we dive deeper into the conversation around female sexuality, I think it's very important to understand the context of this film. uh Milena was written and directed by a man and it was also based on an autobiographical story.

[00:01:50]The director himself uh recognized parts of his own experience and psychology in this narrative. So in many ways the film is not only about female sexuality but also about the awakening of male sexuality, desire and fantasy. This story is set during World War II around 85 years ago in a small town in Italy in a highly religious and conservative society where sexuality and especially female sexuality was heavily tabooed and associated with shame, sin, temptation and danger. And today I really want us to explore these questions together. How much has society actually changed since then? And how much freedom do we women truly have today when it comes to expressing our sexuality, sensuality, desire, and identity? And are we really as free and open as we think we are?

[00:02:53]Because sometimes, like you said, it feels like the rules have changed, but the judgment still exists, right?

[00:03:01]So let's start from the very beginning.

[00:03:06]Melena's husband lives for war and suddenly she is left alone in a deeply conservative society. From the very beginning she's isolated, quiet, mysterious, always by herself. She barely speaks in the movie >> yet the whole town uh speaks about her.

[00:03:25]Rumors spread everywhere that she has lovers, that she is immoral. And what's fascinating is that her crime is not her behavior, right? Because she was interesting. Yeah. She was never vulgar or Yeah. It's her presence. She's simply a beautiful, sensual woman who attracts attention just naturally. And that alone becomes deeply triggering for the people around her. Men are obsessed with her.

[00:03:52]They desire her. And women hate her.

[00:03:55]They shame her. and the whole town project obsession, jealousy and hostility onto her really >> and even her father right becomes humiliated by the gossip surrounding her own daughter. So my question my first question to you Jacine why do you think that female beauty and sexuality throughout the human history becomes such a trigger for people?

[00:04:25]If you ask me, I really feel that it's not so much about beauty in this sense.

[00:04:32]It's about control and power, right?

[00:04:35]>> Because throughout history, if you look at way back in the past, not even 1940s, there was so many laws that was trying to govern women's bodies, women's rights, even the way we dress. And I give you these examples. So for example, you have your witch's trial back in the day when women who are more expressive, you know, confident about themselves just might be a little bit off the track of what a woman should be at that point of time. They are immediately thought of as witches and burned at the stake, right? And then we go we go past that, we have, you know, modesty laws. So there are some countries that still practice this and they shame women or have laws around the way that they should be dressing covered up and whatnot. Um so even by the way you look it's offensive right. Uh and it's that sense of control and power. Um and I know you also have even times like now even in the states you have abortion laws that actually women do not have rights over their own body if they have a if they have to make a choice um absolutely to give that up right and >> it's crazy to think that these laws still exist but ultimately it's really about I think controlling and containing something that they fear which is a woman being able to feel confident in her own sexuality >> and that is destabilizing for them.

[00:06:09]>> You know, >> the fact that there is women out there that could have a voice of their own and that might rock the boat because women are meant to normally be the one at home, the the home maker.

[00:06:25]Exactly. So I think that was something that has been carried through the years till now and instead of confronting it, it's just it's as old as time. So they just continue doing that because personally I just think that they're just trying to build laws around things that they just they just feel like they want more power for. Right. And >> when you say they, you mean men? Yes.

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[00:08:34]>> Yeah. And then how would you explain why very often women resent or fear other beautiful, sensual, sexy women?

[00:08:48]I think that it's not in it's not entirely intentional for most women.

[00:08:55]>> We weren't really taught or given the right vocabulary for it. We have always been brought up most of the time depending on the environment that you're brought up in most of the time is still quite patriarchal.

[00:09:08]>> And because of that, even if in the modern time that we're living in right now has a lot more accessibility to women rights, which is great, a a big step forward compared to what our parents were brought up. But if they actually carried that belief system, it does trickle down to us, right, the younger generations as well.

[00:09:30]And so they embody it not because they they they think it's right, they think that it's something that is socially accepted.

[00:09:39]>> And so instead of wanting to be the odd one out, that's just something that my parents has taught me. I see that in society. And so I am I'm just following what people accept which is to maybe if I see another pretty woman and maybe the media is actually shaming this lady as well I will go along with that >> and that's one way of thinking of it.

[00:10:03]I'll give you an example for this. So when we talk about models, right, you have your beautiful maybe Victoria Secret models, right? And at one even to now you have a lot of backlash when you have these ladies who are really skinny and slim and they're all condemning her and saying, "Oh, she's too unhealthy.

[00:10:24]She's promoting anorexia." Um, but then when you have a plus-siz model that's dawning the the Vogue covers magazines, >> they're torn and conflicted because they're also like, "Oh, finally I have a representation."

[00:10:37]>> But at the same time, you're like, "Is this something that is socially accepted as well? Is she really promoting that something healthy?" So there's no winning.

[00:10:44]>> So winning cannot be >> we can't win, you know, and and really Yeah, it's never enough. And because women have also always been taught growing up in a very early age, it's always, oh, you're so beautiful or oh, like, you know, you should eat a bit lesser so you'll be like slim and you can fit into this dress, a size zero, a size whatever. And then whatever it is in the magazines. So, we were very much indoctrined this not just from our parents, but like whatever else that the media has also >> um shown us. So, we've never really had a chance to really look inwards and figure out what is it that we really want for ourselves.

[00:11:21]>> And it takes a big sense of self-awareness to catch us off.

[00:11:25]>> Absolutely. Awareness plays such a big role. And I agree with you. Maybe it's unintentional. Maybe they're projecting their own insecurities or they see open, free, expressive woman and they want to be that, but they're scared. Right.

[00:11:40]>> Exactly. It's scary because you have always been taught to you're if you're showing too much skin, it's too much.

[00:11:46]Like keep it keep it toned down, right?

[00:11:49]And so because of that suppression, when they see another woman walk past them in the room and fills the space, >> it triggers them.

[00:11:55]>> It triggers them because one, they might not know what's happening, but there's a discomfort, right? And it's living proof that she is she is someone that maybe they wish they could be.

[00:12:06]>> Absolutely.

[00:12:07]>> And I agree. It's this kind of struggle within them that unfortunately maybe it's not even about like the sup superficial jealousy sense but the inner turmoil that they just >> can't seem to find the words for or you know it takes like I said it takes a lot of self-awareness and consciousness and practice within >> um to really realize this.

[00:12:28]>> Okay. So that brings me to the next question but I think we kind of partly answered it. Do you think that society punishes women who remind them of their suppressed desires? Is this what happens in people's mind? They see a provocative woman, they want her, but something inside stops them and they're like punishing themselves for wanting >> what is happening there. You think >> it's easier probably to create a gossip and rumor about someone else than look introspectively, right? So even if there was an inkling of that jealousy or discomfort, >> most women might not want to admit that.

[00:13:10]And so it's easier to blame someone else and make someone else a scapegoat. Just like Molina in the movie, >> she was basically existing. And like you said, she didn't really have much words.

[00:13:21]But even the way she moved, the way that she dressed. Yeah. Dressed. It wasn't like she was scantily dressed, right?

[00:13:29]like she was still modest, but people were projecting their insecurities onto her and as a collective, everyone else was also gossiping and creating rumors on top of that as well. And so that was socially accepted and so they went with it.

[00:13:46]>> I think that's that's unfortunate, but society still does practice this in terms of shaming other women. But you know what helps a lot? Aside from creating that better sense of self-awareness within, it's also trying to find the communities that can help support other women as well. So that's why I do what I do as well. I started the business with first starting helping other women because I felt very isolated growing up as well. I was always a very sexually expressive girl >> when I was 12. But I was always told to, you know, don't talk about these things, you know, be a more uh conservative girl, don't joke about, you know, penises and all that kind of stuff. But as I grew older, I started realizing that that left a lot of damaging effects on me because that carried a lot of shame and that affected a lot of my ways and thinking of how I developed relationship with boys, boys to men, you know, at that stage.

[00:14:51]>> So creating a community of women was something that I really wanted to heal myself. But also like starting with a women's circle in my living room back then and just having conversations and realizing that actually that was alone.

[00:15:07]Every women also had some kind of turmoil within.

[00:15:12]>> I absolutely agree. Uh all we women we are the same. We just look different but all the desires, fears is the same.

[00:15:21]>> Exactly. Going back to the movie, why do you think her father >> her father did not protect her? And was he deaf for real, you think? Or he was pretending to be? What do you think?

[00:15:36]>> I think that her father was thinking what he did by doing this is protecting her or protecting the family as a bigger collective.

[00:15:47]>> Not doing anything. You mean >> not doing anything but I think you have to understand also this film was you know set in a time that was war torn right it's a fascist society is patriarchal and so women didn't really had any rights and so for him his bigger concern was I'm protecting the family's reputation and so that was more important than developing the empathy for the daughter at that point of And maybe in some sense, I don't know if it's considered love or not, but maybe that's how fathers show their love to their child by being the man of the house. I protect my family name and that's how he saw it. You know, I'm reminded about >> this video that I watched that is pretty unfortunate even in current times. It's a rural family India and this daughter is about to be of age and the father it's a live documentary as well and the father was speaking about you know how he's going to be selling off his daughter very soon and that is her that is her life you know she has no other say the interviewer was asking him you know have you ever asked her what she want and what her likes are does she even want to be it. And mind you, his wife and the daughter were sitting there during the whole um listening to >> Yeah. listening to the whole thing. The father was just confidently talking about it too, right? And he was saying, "Yeah, you know, women has no rights to say anything. This was what she was born to do, to be married off, and she's supposed to provide, you know, a kid for the other family and help serve and take care of her future husband's family."

[00:17:34]And the way he said about it too made me so frustrated because he had such a smug look you know >> and to think like you know he's the father to the daughter and even the mother was just silently both of them just silently nodding >> and that's what a belief system does right and >> so you think in his head he was proud of it he thought that it's it's the way it is and I need to protect and protect our family reputation >> yeah and it's hard to say exactly what is wrong right in this situation. Of course, to us, we're like, that's morally not right. But it's so ingrained in his belief system, it's in his veins, right? That for years and generation, this is how it's meant to be. And maybe it really takes a lot more education and you know, when it comes to religion and all that kind of stuff as well, >> putting yourself in a different cultural context even, right? I agree with you.

[00:18:30]>> Yeah. So, it's hard to it's hard to really dwell into these topics because it's painful. You know that these are morally not right and the rights for this girl. You wish you could do something about it, but it takes it takes a lot >> to get past that. Yeah.

[00:18:46]>> Okay. Moving on. Later, Melena's husband dies and suddenly that social protection being someone's wife disappears and at that moment she becomes very vulnerable and alone. The man in the town almost becomes obsessed with her.

[00:19:02]>> Everyone becomes focused on one question. Who will become the next man in Melena's life. And what I found very fascinating and interesting is the contradiction we see in the men because most uh of the men in town are married, having children, traditional family values, but at the same time they are deeply drawn to that archetype of a woman, sensual, free, mysterious, seductive. And I think this brings up a very interesting psychological topic, the Madonna horror complex. It's this idea that some men struggle to see one woman as both >> safe, nurturing, mother wife figure. And at the same time, sexual, free, powerful. It's almost as if these two archetypes, they don't come together in their minds. You can't see it in one woman. And I think this still exists today >> in many relationships because men still cheat women as well but we are talking about men now. So my question is do you think many men still unconsciously separate these two archetypes and they cannot see both in one woman and that's what kind of draws them into temptation to cheat. Yes, I wouldn't say all men.

[00:20:32]Definitely, there are still men out there that form this toxic masculinity and this this culture of not being able to see their wife as an erotic being or basically seeing them as a human being in general. They can't seem to integrate the both especially after having children and uh living together for many years, right? Something clicks in some men. We don't generalize but uh some men they do admit that you know once their wife have children something click in them and they cannot come openly talk about uh fantasies, desires uh what they want to try and bad because they see this Madonna she is this holy person who gave children to me. I think that really comes ingrained back to that social acceptance traditions and values and how they were brought up as well. It is >> and maybe how their parents communicated as well.

[00:21:34]>> Exactly. Or just the environment that who they who they hanging out with. All of this also factors in. And so yeah, unfortunately cheating happens sometimes because they just can't seem to put those two together. But ideally how you get past that is really having a big sense of emotional maturity because you know it is confronting for men especially who is always very used to being in power. It's destabilizing if my woman can be both who is a homemaker who can be nurturing >> how so and loving.

[00:22:09]>> How dabilizing?

[00:22:10]>> Because they have always been the one who has been taught to be the man of the house. I control. I do everything. I have the power. But now if the woman is the one who is I am able to take care of the kids. I'm beautiful. I can dress myself and be expressive. I have my thoughts, my own opinion as well. I can independently maybe go out to work and still be a mom, >> which is challenging, really challenging. I wouldn't say all men but generally some men is I go out I bring home the bacon and my wife and my kids are the one who also just looks up to me you know and serves me in some in some places right >> and so it's destabilizing for them that power dynamic shifts >> tremendously and again it comes it really comes back to depending on how how ingrained these thought values were in them growing up not to say that they can't break out that cycle It starts with again the awareness and also having the emotional maturity to see >> women as a whole being you know and just saying that it's okay to share this plate together and enjoy you know seeing her. It's unfortunate cuz I even still have friends who have their partners not letting their wife go out dressed even just like you know a sleeveless top or a shorter skirt going out late to have a couple of drinks just with the girlfriends you know be constantly calling on the phone and you already know that she's out with her girls but it's this thought in his head that like you know she should be back at this time and like taking care of the kids and I'm the one here and having to do all of that, right? It's a shared responsibility that they don't realize that it's okay that she's her own person. She can have fun. She can be independent. Let her be her >> and then she will still come back loyal, devoted and all of those things still to you, you know, >> and so full of energy and >> power in a good sense of it, right? when women is in her own female sexuality confident and you give her the space and the trust to do so >> and she can give back more >> and and if she knows that her partner is also like aligned with her in that sense all the more she'll be like this is such a rare species I'm not going to give him up because he lets me be who I am right >> oh my god this topic is getting so hot I need to remove my jacket I love it I love it >> exactly I Love it when a man who is able to let his woman shine.

[00:24:50]>> I think it inquires a man being so confident as well, right? In who he is and living his life as well to allow his wife or partner to go there and be free and have that life outside of marriage, right? You don't need to divorce to have your own life and enjoy your lives, right? You can be together and then have your own friends going out with friends and have this trust. But only if you trust yourself and if you are comfortable with who you are really right and confident.

[00:25:20]>> And I and I like to add on to that aside from being confident right again it's it's not just like women pitting on each other right when it comes to projecting when you see a sensual being walk past you in general people project their thoughts and their values onto others when they first see someone or meet someone. And so the same thing when a woman goes out late at night, >> it's a projection of their own fear.

[00:25:46]>> So they might be thinking, you know, if I were to go out a bit late and I have a couple of drinks, what would happen to me might be something that would happen to her? Would she be able to protect herself if I'm not there? You know, so again, it just takes a lot of that own realization within yourself and be like, you know what, my woman is able to, you know, defend herself. she's her own person and trust that you know trust is a big thing not just by communicating with your partner about things but like just really intrinsically being like she will come back home and that will be fine I know that you know I don't always have to be her protector I get the point about protection but don't you think a very jealous man the more jealous man is the more desire there is in him I for example you give me an example about the night life Right? So he goes out for example by himself with his friends.

[00:26:43]Right? So >> he knows what is happening in men's mind. Right? Maybe they look, they talk, blah blah blah. So maybe he thinks, "Oh, okay. My wife will go and I know how other men behave and >> you know I know what's going to happen and she won't be able to resist it this temptation because I've seen it. I feel this desire in myself. So that's why I'm fearful and that's why I'm not letting her out.

[00:27:08]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:27:09]>> It's a very multi-layered problem, right? There's a inner inner conflict.

[00:27:15]>> That would be another another step as well. It's about not just >> letting her shine on her own female sexuality, which is a beautiful thing to watch, but also then is really trusting her as a human being, as an individual, right? like she must also know how to discern what she is you know like in terms of a relationship or not >> like take me and my husband for example like I am I'm really lucky that he also you know in my line of work people who I meet if I go out with my girlfriends I wear something that makes me feel confident and nice about myself right but at the same time there will be times that a guy will come up to me and approach me and I would be polite and I would discern for myself what is right and wrong and of course if they come you know too close and something that I know that is like not right for myself I will know how to say I'm sorry this is not something that I want I respect you but I'm married and this is not what I'm looking for like thank you so much you know and I think that is the >> men who are watching this please this is very important for you to hear we are there married women we we just want to have fun. We going to let men know that we are married. There is an energy around us that we are married. So don't be fearful. Just let your women go, have fun, and we're going to come back even more loving, giving, and caring. Right?

[00:28:45]>> If it's anything, we come back more prime and more hyped up knowing that these lecturous men exist, but we come back home to that one person that gives us emotional security and support.

[00:28:57]Absolutely. And will always be. can't find it anywhere else. And so the more we get that independence to be who we are individually as our own cuz I mean honestly men out there who still try to govern their wives like that it's their property. That's the one that they have to be really mindful of because they're going to end up losing their women because women who are feeling really suppressed in all of this like take it take it back on yourself. If that is something that someone else does to you, how would you feel? You would feel so much turmoil that at some point this bubble is going to burst and where's it going to go? Right? You're working with uh a lot of couples, right? Uh through your workshops. What helps men to integrate these two archetypes in one woman? What can help? First is to let go of the ego and to tell yourself that whatever that you have learned about what men were supposed to be, unlearn that. Just blank slate. Unlearn that.

[00:30:02]And then just come back with better information about like things like this.

[00:30:07]what we're talking about listening listening intently from a woman's perspective what they need, right?

[00:30:15]Rather than what you think they need, you know, don't try to mansplain what you think they need and then taking it as it is and figuring out if this works for you in your context or how can you do better. Not to say all women are also all good all the way. There are obviously women that also need to work on themselves, but that's how couples need to come together to figure out what is their common ground because everyone's going to be very different, right? There are some couples that are heterosexual relationships, some are polygamous relationships, some are, you know, shared between different genders.

[00:30:50]So, there's so much to talk about and relationships are so layered and so complex. But the one that you need to to listen to the most is you and your partner or whoever it is that you are creating the relationship with. Not the society, not what everyone else is telling you.

[00:31:09]>> Not your parents, >> not anyone else. Yeah. Because it's so easy to hear what is socially accepted.

[00:31:16]And we can see that in the film as well, Molina, right? like you know what everyone else like in that small town believe because they you know were brought up in that society where it's very conservative like I just be the wife and then it's just kids and that's it for them right and so it's very much in a role like I'm a mother and that's it you know that's the thing and >> and so see past that and see what works in your relationship and just try your best to not hear the all the other noises cuz they're not in a relationship with you, you know.

[00:31:52]>> Absolutely.

[00:31:53]>> Um I always tell couples at the end of the day, they always say, you know, my my friends are doing this, you know, but I heard something about this. Then I'll end up asking them, but is it what you want?

[00:32:04]>> Yeah.

[00:32:04]>> Is this what your partner, your husband is also saying?

[00:32:10]>> Is it projections?

[00:32:11]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:12]>> Thank you so much. Going back to the movie, I want to talk about the scene in the court. Actually, it's one of the most powerful moments in the film where Melenna is publicly accused of immoral uh behavior. And what's striking is that she is the one being judged, >> not the married dentist or the officer, the military officer, basically men who initiated this contact. Why do you think they judged me and not the men? Like I said, it's easier to blame someone else and make someone else the scapegoat rather than admit that they had flaws and they were the one who initiated as you mentioned. And these men as you mentioned dentist, the military guy and >> I mean the dentist was a married guy.

[00:33:02]>> Yes. But they all have reputation and also a status quo to to live up to, right?

[00:33:08]>> And he's the dentist of the town, you know. the only one dentist. What would they do if the dentist was >> Exactly. And the one time that she finally want to advocate for herself, she got a lawyer to actually help to represent her. It's the one time that she still gets scrutinized by everyone, you know, to speak up. And that's just unfortunate, but it is also what happens in in the real world too. Still >> you think that it still tends today that the female sexuality is associated with morality like oh she was the one who provoked him whether it's like male sexuality is like well it's it's nature it's instincts it's normal male behavior again whatever that we're saying is not a generalization but for example I'll give you a context of we're talking about morality if we Say someone who is in adultery relationship right what's the first thing you would think of like oh you know this person has an adultery you would think is that another woman >> right instinctively right >> and why is it always the other woman that is at fault >> and we are still living in this modern age we know we know that like you know there are still men and women that actually do these things as well and the man is just as equally at fault but instinctually like you think Oh, was there another woman at play?

[00:34:32]>> Mhm.

[00:34:33]>> And that's just unfortunate where we are at because women are still associated with the idea of, you know, they are the one that tempt and seduce, >> tempt us, right? Because men are the one that's weak when it comes to desire, right? Like it's almost like a biological thing like they can't control themselves around beautiful over him.

[00:34:55]Devils demon, oh my gosh, like I'm in a trance right now. So, it's not my fault.

[00:35:00]is this lady that just came by with her perfume, walked around. Oh my god. Yes.

[00:35:04]>> Yeah. You know what I mean? And unfortunately, these these narratives still continues to today. And also, you see that in teenage boys and girls because when a boy loses his virginity, >> it's celebrated among their peers. But for women, when you do that at a younger age, it becomes a little bit more of a [ __ ] shaming narrative. You know, >> it's frowned upon. Yeah.

[00:35:25]>> Yeah. It's frowned upon. So I think that we do have a lot to work on ourselves to realize that we could be the one that break the cycle. You know, it just takes the realization from there.

[00:35:38]>> Mhm.

[00:35:39]>> Mhm. Another very painful part of the story is the complete abandonment um Melena experiences. The moment when even her own father betrays her and uh denies her and at this point she is fully rejected by the whole town. uh they don't give her job, she doesn't have any money to eat. So we see a woman in so desperate right and completely alone without any protection, support and money. So this is raises a very important question. Do you think that the society pushed her into prostitution or did she did she actually have a choice or it was forced? I mean, if you had every door closed on you, no matter how hard, from the beginning, she was trying so hard to find employment, right? Every door was closed on her >> and then, you know, everyone was telling you that you're a [ __ ] you're a prostitute, you're going to steal my man, everything, right? And no one even would give you a helping hand.

[00:36:39]Basically, she's she's got her arms twisted. It's no choice. It's a survival thing at this point, right? I think that she had no choice and she just had to be a prostitute just to be able to survive.

[00:36:51]Man, poor woman. She was hungry. Hungry.

[00:36:54]And even when you think there was this one scene where she had to go to the street and thought this nice guy was just actually there to help her and pass her bread secretly in his in his bag and he was still saying, you know, I can help you with other things as well. You know, just call me. And there's no hope.

[00:37:12]She's never had a chance in this town.

[00:37:14]So >> I agree.

[00:37:16]>> It's sad.

[00:37:17]>> What I noticed from the very beginning that Melena herself was extremely quiet, very isolated woman. She always looked down when she was walking the streets.

[00:37:29]She was emotionally disconnected from everyone.

[00:37:33]Don't you think if she had been a bit more warm and open connecting to people, especially women, right? made friends with women, she could have avoided that scrutiny and hostility towards her.

[00:37:47]>> I think I think being warm is one thing to a certain extent because if you are nice and you have a community, it's great because you're not just advocating for yourself. You have maybe other people who can support you and you become less bullied, right, if something happens.

[00:38:10]But I'll give you an example too. You see Britney Spears as she's grown through the times. We've watched her grown up from Disney, you know, as a child. She was sexualized, you know, at a very young age. She's at her baby hit me one more time. And you've seen her grown from this good girl to bad girl image.

[00:38:30]>> And then everyone was many of them do that, right? Miley Cyrus.

[00:38:35]>> Yes. And and so you have this clean image and everyone was like so good and supporting her until she wasn't until she broke broke the what the norm was of a good girl should look like and then everyone started to attack all these women right that you seem and it's do you really need to be this clean cookie cut image of being warm all the time because it just takes this to just when you change what is socially accepted for people's minds to change as well. And I think so that's why it's to a certain extent and in an even darker side of things when you see this happening with women who are sexually assaulted >> right then the the opposite happens which is was she the one who led him on was she too nice to him you know so then it becomes a problem like oh then I was too nice I was too warm so I'm the Maybe the question isn't so much about what this woman or this victim could have done. It should be what could we have done to look at ourselves or to help change that narrative of other people talking about it.

[00:39:48]>> But don't you think that silence and isolation can increase the victimization, you know, because people can fill up that silence with their own assumptions, fantasies >> 100%. But like again I would say it's really to a certain extent just like Molina she spoke up herself in the courtroom had a lawyer that represented her but she still got scrutinized regardless.

[00:40:13]>> She didn't speak the lawyer did she was just sitting down there looking but again it's different time it's different context >> and I've seen even in sexual assault victims as well even when they advocate for themselves they speak up for themselves. Why do you think so many actually sexual assault women actually don't want to report it? Because they know that even if they were to say anything, >> most of the people will still >> blame them. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Which is >> should you should you advocate for yourself? Should you not say anything?

[00:40:48]Like should you you know like there there's no winning. So I really think that women who go through these things and speak up to themselves, it takes a lot of courage because of course you will have people who will be on your side, but then you will also have a huge chunk of people >> and you have to be prepared for >> very prepared. Very prepared.

[00:41:08]>> Yeah. Let's talk about Melena's transformation scene when she cuts her hair, dyes it red, goes to the square, sits down, and officially offers herself as a prostitute to the town.

[00:41:23]>> Mhm.

[00:41:24]>> What do you see in that scene? Do you see a woman who is so desperate, hates herself for this? Or do you see a freedom maybe or even pleasure in this transformation? Because it's almost like saying, "Okay guys, you saw me as this bad woman. I'm done with being this good girl." So, it's like a [ __ ] you kind of and here I am. You wanted me be this, here I am.

[00:41:55]>> Yep. Oh, so there is a pleasure in transformation or not?

[00:41:59]>> I think on a surface level it's definitely a f you woman, you know, to everyone else who's looking at her.

[00:42:05]>> But it is a disguise. It's a huge disguise. Obviously, it's so powerful. I love how Monica is able to just >> evoke an emotion without saying anything. And when was lighting that cigarette for her, >> it's like she embodied the body was giving confidence, right? But her eyes was like pain.

[00:42:25]>> Oh my god.

[00:42:26]>> And despair, you know, and that was the disguise that you can see. It's just a persona that she had to put up. But it's a form of having to protect herself. She she had to do what she had to do. And whether or not she believed that this was something empowering is another thing. But your body and your soul, >> they don't lie. My god. I felt for her that moment.

[00:42:52]>> It was painful.

[00:42:53]>> Painful.

[00:42:53]>> Yeah.

[00:42:54]>> And the climax scene when women went to her house, dragged her out to square, cut her hair, beat her up.

[00:43:05]>> Nobody stood up for her.

[00:43:07]Why do you think she was beaten up? And why women were the ones who punished her? It's that physical tension that these women built up inside of them that they needed a a release for unfortunately and also >> suppressed anger >> so much suppressed anger >> and we >> maybe even even even towards their husbands I'm now I'm thinking about it right >> yeah it's not just their own jealousy it's the weight of of what they are angry with their husbands that they can't express so they take it out on her. But again, like we said, this is the 1940s. It's Sicily. It's a conservative countries and in that time, these kind of public humiliation physically, it's accepted. It's a social norm, right? Unfortunately, in some rural places in this time still practices this as well. But yeah, I think they just needed a a form of release physically to really let out all of that like suppression. And she was just >> she was just a scapegoat.

[00:44:16]>> She was a scape goat. Yeah.

[00:44:18]>> Do you think that she was also a scapegoat for their own collective fear and guilt for being connected to uh fascists to to Nazis? because on the surface she was punished for being in relationship with but the historical context Italians were supporting in the beginning >> everything I think the weight and and also at the same time I don't think it's just about the husband and themselves that they are punching it out of Molina it they think that what they're doing is the self-righteous moral thing to do >> and they're doing it for the society the greater good >> so it becomes a bigger topic alto together.

[00:44:59]>> It's such a hypocrisy as a society, right? Because people punish other people most harshly for the things that >> they may be seeing themselves or they secretly desire or even they have done in the past. So it's almost like washing yourself out of that scene.

[00:45:17]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:18]>> Let's also talk a little bit about sexual education. There is a scene in a film where the boy is shamed for masturbating. He's taken to church where they try to remove the devil from him and he's told that if he continues masturbating he will go blind. We see the strong connection between sexuality, shame, fear, guilt and disgust being created from a very young age. Almost as if society tries to make children afraid of their own bodies and desires in order to control sexuality. So how do you think this connection between sex and shame is formed psychologically? It's actually from from a very very young age. Like you said, it can even happen before a kid even understand what sex even really means.

[00:46:01]>> Most parents I know >> probably find it really difficult to talk about the birds and the bees with their kids because they worry that they might, you know, say something that would be one damaging to what they would be brought up cuz they've been through it as well.

[00:46:17]So they're like I'd rather not say anything at all. And then at the same time it might be also tied back to you know religious and faith for them. And so it's it's a lot of the lack of understanding for themselves to be empowered of the right language to teach their kids. And honestly when it talks about sex education sometimes I mean of course it has to be age appropriate but you don't have to overwhelm them with >> all the information of an adult. It's depending on which demographic they are.

[00:46:47]you start out with less information as possible.

[00:46:50]>> It could also be like for example a toddler age they don't really understand what the body parts are. just start from there >> like talk about it healthily and say this is your valva this is your vagina this is what is private for you >> but I just want to tell you this is not what we do in public but if you need to we can actually you know talk about it or do this at home in a more private space and you know just let them know that that wasn't something to be shamed or wrong because that carries true >> yes and it creates the experience with their body right the early sex educ education. It's the way to help your child to create that relationship with the body, with the intimacy, with pleasure.

[00:47:34]>> And for boys, they don't end up objectifying women for just that parts as well. Right? And when you see sex education being brought up from a very healthy conversation from the beginning to like even in their mature age. It's really powerful because then you build a a stronger relationship with your family, your parents and also at a young age if sexual predators will be to come around they will know and have the autonomy and and the relationship their body to say no >> no mommy said this is only for me and only mommy and daddy you know so getting and doctors and doctors yeah so all of these things can be taught from young and you know studies again again have shown that if you start early having these age appropriate conversations with kids, >> they are less likely to have teenage pregnancies, STDs. Women are delaying their first time because they are wanting to be really sure. Like I said, boy, boys are not objectifying women um for their bodies and also developing much more healthier relationships of communicating their wants and their needs with partners and the relationship that they have with themselves cuz it's not shameful anymore. Like this parts of my body, how it works, the bodily function for pleasure, these are all normal to feel. It's normalizing all of this. and and and then they develop a more confident self as well. Yeah.

[00:49:08]>> Absolutely.

[00:49:09]>> Absolutely. So coming to the ending of the film which for me is the most controversial part of the entire film at the end is coming back to the city with her husband and the society finally accepts her back. So >> that kind of brings the question the the film was shot in 2000 like 26 years ago.

[00:49:29]It's still a contemporary. Don't you think that the ending kind of reinforces this idea that a woman can only achieve some sort of status or respect from the society only if she is married and if a woman is single or not married she risks you know being vulnerable or I don't know just being dispos disposable almost right like not married woman is like an object who is disposable what do you think about the ending and if you had to shoot the film and you the director, how would you change the ending?

[00:50:06]>> I saw the film as a reflection of a time stamp of that past and regardless how uncomfortable that last scene was. And of course, same thing. I wish that, you know, there was so many other things that could have been done differently.

[00:50:24]But I think that the ending also fits because it's it's a good reflection to other people to look at and say make their own call and make their own judgment as well and to see whether or not it's something that they should improve and do something different.

[00:50:41]>> Mhm.

[00:50:41]>> So you think it was intentional from the direction? I mean it is his auto propaganda >> of like this.

[00:50:49]>> I think that's the whole thing. I think that's why I actually at first I caught myself going like oh my god I wish this could have been different blah blah blah and everything but again then it's >> your projection my own projection right and we've been talking about this whole thing about projection everything but this is his autobiography. This is about his life. It is uncomfortable to watch but also at the same time other people who might be watching this might have a different thought about it too and be like that could be a awakening for them to realize [ __ ] this is not how this is how I see myself right now >> like I don't want to be this person how can I break out of it right and then have these conversations as well with their friends so I think it was a brilliant way of him doing it is his own personal >> way of >> I just wish he just walk slowmo you Exactly same. And she's like >> at the back.

[00:51:39]>> Same. Exactly the same. I I wish that that could have been done differently.

[00:51:42]But at the same time, after I really, you know, stewed it a little bit more and kept asking myself like why am I why am I trying to also project what I think is right for this film. It is what it is. And I think that it was brilliant.

[00:51:56]>> I'm just happy that they're together.

[00:51:57]It's very good. You know, they reconnected and he was not dead and they're still together. Like for me, I wish that like, you know, she didn't even return to the town honestly. Like she didn't need to. She didn't need to because like why do you need to actually prove yourself?

[00:52:12]>> In fact, for me, I would also like look at it in a context of like empathy for the husband because the husband >> despite of whatever has happened to him as well. He seems like a good guy and he came looking for her despite hearing all the rumors about what happened with her and he still despite all of that went to look for her >> and like in my head I'm just thinking you know what it could have been like they didn't come back at all to justify themselves cuz they didn't need to and then later on have a a life for themselves maybe you know a little bit more peaceful quieter away from all of this have their own kids and maybe she starts something that is you know she's start a school for herself and do something for other kids and and and to support them. I mean, in my head, there's this all these whatifs as well, you know, but >> you think it was just necessary for the context of the film, the ending.

[00:53:02]>> Yeah. Thank you, Jacqueline.

[00:53:04]>> Thank you so much.

[00:53:06]>> It was honestly very powerful uh and important topic. So, thank you so much for coming today and chat about Melena.

[00:53:14]Would you like to say a few inspirational few words to the viewers?

[00:53:19]I'll say don't be afraid to own your pleasure because you can stand in your own power and there's nothing to be apologetic about it. Amazing. Thank you so much.

[00:53:30]>> Thank you. I truly feel like we touch on topics that are still deeply uncomfortable for many people to openly discuss sexuality, shame, desire, female competition, jealousy, and the way society shapes how we women are allowed to express ourselves. And I think films like Melena reminds us that even though times change, many of these dynamics still exist today, just in different forms. But I also want to remind everyone watching this today, there is nothing wrong with you and nothing to fix. You are allowed a whole of you.

[00:54:02]Your sexual energy is not something to be ashamed of. It's your creative energy. It's your life force. So don't be afraid of it. Investigate it and accept it. get curious about it and express it in healthy, conscious and safe ways through creativity, connection, honesty and consensual intimacy. And that connection always starts with yourself first. You don't need to fear this part of yourself. We just need to understand it. And if you need support, there are people like Jaclyn, like myself, and many others who help people reconnect with who they truly are, with their sexuality, with their authentic self. So links to our websites are attached below for you in case you want to connect. Please remember you're not alone. Thank you so much for watching. If you enjoyed this conversation, share this episode with someone who might deeply connect with it. And don't forget to subscribe to the channel for more conversations and film analysis through the lens of psychology, sexuality, communication, and human behavior. See you in the next episode.