A Defense Of The 2 Worst Batman Movies

本站添加: 2026-05-17

[00:00:00]Hey guys, welcome to Cape and Cowl Cafe.

[00:00:02]I'm Nemo and today we're going to be talking about the two Batman movies that have basically become the punching bag of the franchise. The two poor Batman sitting in the [ __ ] chair as they watch the entire world fawn over Mr. Chronic smoker. You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

[00:00:21]I'm of course talking about Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. You already know the reputation. Neon lights everywhere, bat-themed credit cards, ice puns every 5 seconds, and of course nipples. All right, okay.

[00:00:36]For a lot of fans, these films represent the moment Batman lost his edge and became a joke. And look, I get it. I'm not here to pretend that these are flawless movies. They're not. They're messy. They're inconsistent and yeah, sometimes they're just straight up ridiculous. But today at the cafe, I want to do something different. I want to offer a defense for these movies.

[00:00:57]That's right. I'm stepping in like Matt Murdock representing the Punisher. I'm not going to defend them as hidden masterpieces, but as films that actually have some real intrinsic value, some interesting ideas, and honestly, some elements that modern Batman adaptations could take notes from. Because buried under all the skin-tight rubber, there's a vision and when you squint your eyes, you can kind of see it. Now, if you guys enjoy the video at any point today, I'd really appreciate it if you hit that like and subscribe button, but let's hop right in. All right, let's start off with Batman Forever. The movie immediately opens up with a suit-up scene, which I personally love these.

[00:01:34]They're so charming and they add so much personality to a superhero movie, even if they are a little silly. But it's cool to see our hero suiting up one leg at a time and I think it makes them feel more relatable in a way. And the suit here is actually pretty good. For some reason, I like it a lot more than the Michael Keaton suits and the scope for the cowl is just a lot more refined here. It looks way better. If you can get over the nipples, it actually looks pretty slick. We then get a prequel shot of the Batcave and the Batmobile. And in this first shot, they do away with the neon and they just let it look like it's normal gothic self. Now, I just have to mention this. The score here is honestly kind of awesome. It's not as iconic as the Danny Elfman theme, but it definitely does stick out. The music feels dramatic and it feels very Batman.

[00:02:19]We then move on to see the Batmobile zooming through Gotham City, which looks fine. I'm mixed on it. I love how fantastical it all looks. You have the huge towering statues holding up bridges and buildings, which seem to vertically span forever. The atmosphere is honestly really unique, but it also looks like a very over-stimulating city to live in.

[00:02:40]There are so many neon lights. It's ridiculous. I just have to imagine that being in the city would give me a huge headache. Does not look fun at all. We then get our introduction to Two-Face, who honestly could be swapped out with any other villain and it wouldn't matter. They don't really utilize the Harvey side of the character at all, and he only shows that side of his personality right before he dies. For the most part, he's just a crazy person and cracks a lot of jokes. You could have done Joker instead, and nothing in the story would change. But Harvey is still not the worst here. He's serviceable. He's pretty good in his first scene with the bank guard, and then after that, he just goes off the rails. It's kind of weird. So anyway, Two-Face is robbing a bank to lure in Batman, and that's really his only goal.

[00:03:23]He just wants to kill Batman. Like, we get a little bit of exposition from news clips that shows Batman trying to save Two-Face from Maroni's acid. So I guess Two-Face is mad that Batman didn't stop him. Again, not a lot of depth to this guy. Anyway, Batman shows up to stop the bank robbery, and we get a quick fight scene with some Two-Face goons. Now, this is one of the things that I love about these movies. They have actual henchmen. It's not just thugs in ski masks. Like the goons are actually dressed up to match their bosses theme.

[00:03:53]It's so fun. It reminds me of the enemies from the first LEGO Batman game and it makes me feel really nostalgic.

[00:04:00]So, Batman beats up the thugs, then he jumps into this bank vault like an idiot to save this guard who then says, It's a trap.

[00:04:07]A helicopter lifts the vault into the sky, at which point the bank vault starts filling up with acid. You know what? Not a bad plan. By the way, the guard in this scene is so annoying and he doesn't shut up and he just keeps whining. Oh no, it's boiling acid.

[00:04:26]Shut up.

[00:04:27]Batman escapes the vault and then manages to attach a line to it and swing it back into place in the bank. This is just ridiculous. Like he swings the vault back into the room where it was taken from and it lines up perfectly with like the railing on It's so funny. Like this would never happen in a modern day Batman movie. This is just hilarious. All right, this next scene is our introduction to the other half of Batman. So, let's talk about one of the most overlooked aspects of Batman forever, Val Kilmer as Bruce Wayne.

[00:04:58]Because somehow over time, his performance has just been completely overshadowed by everything else that is going on in this movie. But if you actually sit down and watch it closely, Kilmer is doing something really interesting with this character. His Bruce Wayne feels tired, not physically, but more emotionally. You can see it in the way he carries himself in the quieter scenes where he's alone and the way he reacts when his past is brought up. This is one of the few live-action versions of Batman that actually leans into the idea that Bruce might not want to be Batman forever. Eh?

[00:05:30]Eh? Get it? Anyway, that maybe being Batman isn't a symbol of strength, but rather a coping mechanism that he's been trapped in since childhood. And Kilmer portrays that internal conflict really well. He's very different from other Batman. He feels more vulnerable, more introspective and this is a huge plus because many Batman movies favor flushing out the antagonist character over Bruce's. The problem isn't Kilmer, okay? He's doing a fantastic job here.

[00:05:57]The problem is that the movie doesn't always commit to exploring that depth as much as it should. It sets something up meaningful and then gets distracted by everything else happening. But that doesn't take away from the performance itself. Val Kilmer's Bruce Wayne is genuinely one of the more interesting takes on the character.

[00:06:13]We just don't talk about it enough.

[00:06:15]Anyway, we move on to see Bruce check in on one of his Wayne Tech divisions where we are introduced to Jim Carrey as Edward Nygma, the Riddler, who was responsible for about 80% of the camp in this movie.

[00:06:30]He honestly reminds me of Electro from TASM 2, the intelligent but awkward social outcast who becomes obsessed with the hero after a perceived rejection.

[00:06:38]Edward presents his idea for a machine that can manipulate brainwaves to Bruce, and he gets turned down due to the ethical concerns that his work raises.

[00:06:46]Bruce was actually super nice about it, all things considered. He was willing to overlook Ed's eccentric nature and hear him out, and even gave him a chance to submit a formal application to move forward with the project, given he provided the schematics and details of the device.

[00:07:00]Ed instead decides to demand an answer on the spot, and Bruce obviously says no. Again, this is just another reason as to why Kilmer's Bruce is just awesome. He shows the same level of compassion that Bruce has for his villains in the comics. I've like would have just fired this guy.

[00:07:16]And then maybe kill him. Now, Nygma's whole plan is to suck the brain juice out of everyone through their TVs. He accomplishes this by teaming up with Two-Face and stealing enough money to somehow create a legitimate tech company and build a Riddler temple in the middle of the sea. And this all happens in the span of a few weeks.

[00:07:36]Right.

[00:07:37]I do really like his dynamic with Two-Face. They remind me of the two cops from Superbad. They're just so funny.

[00:07:42]They're really stupid, but for some reason, it works. Also, why does every villain from back then have some kind of overly sexualized sidekick with them?

[00:07:52]Lex had Miss Tessmacher, and Two-Face has these two duality-themed mistresses.

[00:07:58]It's kind of ridiculous. One of them is all pimped out in white fur, and the other is just a goth girl, and they start fighting over who made the better dinner for Harvey. Even Mr. Freeze has one in the next movie, even though his whole motivation is his wife.

[00:08:11]Whatever. And it's not just them. These two movies are really sexual for no reason. Even Riddler gets in on the action.

[00:08:20]Joygasm!

[00:08:23]It really seems like everyone in this movie wants to sleep with Bruce Wayne in some capacity, and it's really weird, but I guess also kind of accurate. Now, we need to talk about the biggest contributor to the weird sexual tone in this movie, Dr. Chase Meridian, played by Nicole Kidman. Now, there was another scene right before the opening bank heist, but I wanted to save it until now because I have a lot to say about this character. Right before Batman goes into the bank, we are introduced to Dr. Chase Meridian, who is probably the biggest horndog I have ever seen in a Batman movie. Hot entrance.

[00:08:57]Come on, man. WHAT THE [ __ ] IS YOU DOING, CUZ? And yes, that includes Catwoman. Now, she's not too bad in this introduction scene, but when she calls Batman to the roof of the GCPD later in the movie, she's so sexual for no reason. She's out here on the GCPD rooftop looking like Padme in Attack of the Clones. What are we doing? Okay, now, on paper, she's a psychologist who's fascinated by Batman. Makes sense.

[00:09:22]It's an interesting inversion of the Joker-Harley dynamic. Batman is damaged, scarred, and the wounded bird thing really works for Dr. Meridian, but in execution, she's obsessed with him in a way that feels both professional and completely unprofessional at the same time.

[00:09:37]Oh.

[00:09:39]Black rubber. What the hell's wrong with you?

[00:09:43]But she also doesn't know what she wants, okay? At first, she's so infatuated with Batman that she's willing to bang him on a rooftop. But as soon as Bruce opens up to her about how damaged and scarred he is, she does a full 180. She doesn't care about Batman anymore. Now, before this random change of heart, this dynamic actually kind of works. There are scenes where Bruce is clearly trying to connect with her as Bruce Wayne, but he knows deep down that Batman is the guy she really wants. It almost feels like a commentary on the dual identity itself. Like Bruce is being forced to confront the idea that Batman might be more real and desirable to other people than he is. And again, this all ties back into Kilmer's performance. He makes it work. Is the execution perfect?

[00:10:27]Not even close. Some of the dialogue is questionable at best. You trying to get under my cape, doctor?

[00:10:34]A girl can't live by psychoses alone.

[00:10:37]It's the car, right? Chicks love the car. But the idea, the underlying dynamic, it's really fascinating and it adds another layer to Bruce's internal struggle that the movie doesn't get enough credit for. Now, let's move on to Dick Grayson.

[00:10:50]Grown ass man, Dick Grayson. Now, I know the movie makes a point to mention the fact that Dick had a choice between Mr. Wayne and social services, but I don't believe that at all. Look at him. This is a grown ass man. Like maybe they were trying to score some brand synergy points with Btas who also had an older Robin, but that was because of the strict guidelines set by the studio.

[00:11:11]They tried to make Robin too cool in this movie. They give him a motorcycle and he wears leather jackets and he's got a totally badass piercing and he sneaks out to go for a joyride on the Batmobile. And then we have whatever this is.

[00:11:31]It's like the director heard all of the jokes about Batman and Robin being gay, so he tried to course-correct and make him the most totally cool rad dude ever.

[00:11:40]But now, the accusations are somehow worse because we have a grown-ass man Robin living with a billionaire playboy, and they both dress up in molded rubber muscle suits with nipples.

[00:11:51]Robin was honestly the weakest part of this movie besides Two-Face, and in my opinion, they could have just left him out. Like honestly, I'm surprised that they stuck with the circus backstory.

[00:12:00]Anyway, so fast forward, Two-Face and Riddler find out that Bruce Wayne is Batman, and they break into Wayne Manor and the Batcave and kidnap Dr. Meridian.

[00:12:08]Batman and Robin then travel to Riddler's temple tower thingy, and Robin immediately gets kidnapped as well.

[00:12:14]Batman is then presented with a classic superhero conundrum. Let die the woman you love or suffer the little children?

[00:12:26]Anyway, Batman saves them both and then kills Two-Face, which is really frustrating because there was a separate subplot about Bruce actively discouraging Dick from killing Two-Face.

[00:12:37]I guess Bruce indirectly killed him, but I think it's still a kill. He knew Harvey would fall to his death when he threw the coins, but whatever.

[00:12:46]By the way, Batman has a slide in his office that assumedly travels across the entire city and delivers him to the Batcave.

[00:12:53]I want one. All right, now let's zoom out and talk about Batman Forever as a whole because this movie is so close to being something really special. What it's trying to do is balance two completely different visions of Batman.

[00:13:07]On one hand, you have the more dark, serious tone carried over from the Tim Burton films. This tone is more present in the quieter dialogue scenes, and on the other hand, you have this brighter, more stylized, toyetic, Silver Age comic book-inspired direction. And for a good portion of the movie, the balance actually kind of works. This movie is honestly a breath of fresh air for people who are getting a little tired of overly realistic interpretations of Batman.

[00:13:33]Comic books are silly, okay?

[00:13:35]Even today. So, for all its flaws, Batman Forever deserves more credit for what it attempted. It explored some ideas that a lot of other Batman movies ignore. And Val Kilmer carried this movie on his back. He was a pretty good Bruce Wayne. And if he was given a better movie to be in, his name would be mentioned with the rest of the greats.

[00:13:54]So, I'm going to give this movie a conservative 6.5 out of 10. Now, for the other one.

[00:14:02]I'm going to be honest, this one is a lot harder to defend. Val Kilmer as Bruce Wayne and Batman carried the last movie, okay? George Clooney does not.

[00:14:11]And again, I'm not here to tell you that this is secretly a great movie. It's not. But, I am going to say this.

[00:14:18]Batman and Robin is a movie.

[00:14:21]Unlike Batman Forever, which is constantly trying to balance the darker tone with the silly campy one, Batman and Robin just goes all in, okay? It's done playing around. It fully commits to the camp, the absurdity, and the over-the-top comic book energy. This movie is basically a live-action cartoon. So, this movie opens in an almost identical fashion to the last one. A beautiful, goofy, suited-up scene. This time, we get shots of the dynamic duo's ass and bulges. Amazing start. We also get to see the Batmobile rise up into the cave on a platform, and Batman hops in, and the windshield closes.

[00:14:59]Wait, it it doesn't close? No?

[00:15:02]Does he forget to close it?

[00:15:05]Oh, there's there's no windshield?

[00:15:08]He's just driving around raw-dogging the wind and bugs in his face? Really?

[00:15:12]All right, okay.

[00:15:14]Batman then speeds off and receives a comically convenient FaceTime from Commissioner Gordon. A new villain has commandeered the Gotham Museum. He's frozen the Antiquities wing. He's turned the security guards into blocks of ice.

[00:15:26]He's calling himself Mr. Freeze. Batman then arrives at the museum via the skylight. And by the way, this is how Batman enters almost every single scene in these movies.

[00:15:46]If you're a villain in this Gotham City, then just don't commit crimes in buildings with skylights. Like, it's that simple, okay? Every single entrance is through a skylight. We also get our first look at Arnold Schwarzenegger's Mr. Freeze. And oh my gosh, he is the best part of this movie.

[00:16:04]In this universe, there's only one absolute.

[00:16:09]Wait, was that an absolute Batman reference?

[00:16:11]He is so stupidly hilarious with every line he delivers, and you can't help but love him. Now, let me run through this opening fight sequence with you. Just stick with me here, okay?

[00:16:22]Batman and Robin show up at the museum to stop Freeze. Freeze then summons his Mr. Freeze themed goons, and Batman and Robin activate their ice skates and start playing hockey with the henchmen.

[00:16:33]This is gold. Mr. Freeze hops in his Mr. Freeze themed tank, and Batman jumps in after him. The tank then turns into a spaceship and takes off towards the upper atmosphere. Mr. Freeze then jumps out, leaving Batman to die until Robin manages to make it inside the spaceship to save Batman. And then they both turn the spaceship doors into surfboards, and they surf back down to the city.

[00:16:59]What is going on?

[00:17:01]Now, I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this because he doesn't really deserve it. But George Clooney as Batman is terrible. He's genuinely the only actor in this movie who isn't trying. He just looks like he's bored. No charisma, no charm, no Batman presence. He's just absolute garbage.

[00:17:21]All right. Now, let's move on. The next few scenes introduce us to Pamela Isley played by Uma Thurman. She also fills out that Tazzam to Electro archetype.

[00:17:29]So, she's working for a sketchy lab in South America and she finds out that her boss is using her plants to conduct illegal experiments. She walks in on a demonstration where Lionel Luthor turns this random guy into Bane in front of a bunch of government guys.

[00:17:44]Pamela's boss catches her and takes her into the next room to kill her.

[00:17:48]Okay.

[00:17:49]She gets a bunch of chemicals splashed on her and she sinks into the ground.

[00:17:54]What feels like minutes later, she rises out of the ground, but this time she's really hot. She explains her new powers to her boss, then kills him.

[00:18:03]Um hey, crazy plant lady, how did you know how your powers work? You were just in the ground unconscious.

[00:18:11]Never mind. She then takes Bane who agrees to be her henchman for some reason and they head to Gotham to take on Bruce Wayne. Yeah, these villains are not great. Bane has one brain cell, Poison Ivy is so cringey and overly sexual at all times. Now, we all know the scene at the jungle-themed party.

[00:18:30]It's where we see the infamous bat credit card. A funny detail I noticed was this part. They have dancers swinging above the party guest on vines. Like, I get the regular dancers on the platforms, but why are there people swinging on the vines above the Whatever. Anyway, Mr. Freeze is the only antagonist I'm having a good time with, okay? Except for the fact that his plan makes no sense. Mr. Freeze wants to save his wife and in order to do that, he needs money to fund his research. Makes sense. So, in order to do that, he steals diamonds which he will use to freeze the city and hold it for ransom.

[00:19:10]Bro, you already have the diamonds. Just sell them or steal money like the Riddler did in the last movie. He was able to steal enough money to start a legitimate company. Now, even though Freeze is absolutely stupid, there are two kind of good scenes with him in it. The first one is where Mr. Freeze is watching footage of him and his wife. He looks like he's, you know, it's going to be like a heartfelt scene and he starts crying. And then a goon walks in and Freeze kills him and cracks a joke, ruining any potential for emotion. The second one is at the very end when Batman beats Freeze and offers him a chance to redeem himself by curing the disease. This scene shows us a side of Batman that we don't see very often outside of the comics. Too bad it was in this movie. Now, speaking of disease, there is a subplot with Alfred in this movie and he's dying. Alfred being sick is supposed to support the weak theme of control that this movie has. Throughout the movie, different characters accuse Bruce of being too controlling. He constantly shuts down Robin and ignores him in the field and they even get into a pissing match over Poison Ivy. With Alfred, though, none of this happens.

[00:20:16]Alfred mentions to Bruce that he became Batman so he could control death itself and how it's a coping mechanism. But, Bruce honestly doesn't even seem to care that Alfred is dying. The only one who really cares is Barbara Wilson who is Alfred's niece.

[00:20:31]Commissioner Gordon is literally in the movie, but whatever. Anyway, Alicia Silverstone plays Batgirl and she's fine. She shows up near the end through a skylight, yet again, and trades some corny one-liners with Poison Ivy and kicks her into a giant Venus flytrap. I was honestly shocked that they didn't pursue a love story between her and Dick, but I guess there's already too much happening in this movie. Now, I know what the title of the video says, but I can't really defend this movie too much. What I can say is there is a lot of Silver Age influence, which is pretty rare nowadays. Now, this is where both of these movies excel. The tone, while different in each film, feels like it was ripped straight out of a '50s or '60s comic book. If you go back and read Batman stories from that era, you'll find a lot of the same elements. Wild plots, ridiculous gadgets, villains with gimmicks that are taken to extreme levels, stories that don't always take themselves too seriously. That's the DNA these movies are pulling from, and while modern audiences are more accustomed to darker, more grounded interpretations of Batman, that doesn't mean that this approach is inherently wrong. It's just different.

[00:21:39]In fact, you could argue that these films are closer to certain eras of comics than some of the darker adaptations we praise today. They capture a side of Batman that's colorful, theatrical, and larger than life. A side that often gets ignored because it doesn't fit the gritty realism mold. And again, that doesn't mean that every creative choice works, but the intent behind it is actually pretty faithful to a specific version of the character's history. At the end of the day, Batman Forever and Batman and Robin aren't the best Batman movies.

[00:22:09]They're not even close.

[00:22:10]But they're also not completely worthless. There are some good ideas here, strong performances, especially from Val Kilmer, a bold visual style.

[00:22:19]This movie has tons of that. And it has a willingness to embrace a different side of Batman that we don't always get to see. These movies didn't fail because they tried something new. They failed because they didn't refine those ideas enough. So, if you're willing to look past the flaws, there's actually a lot to appreciate.

[00:22:37]All right, guys. That's going to be it for today's video. If you guys enjoyed it at all, I'd really appreciate it if you hit that like and subscribe button, and drop in the comments down below your thoughts on Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. Let's talk about it. But, yeah. Until next time. I'll see you guys later.