Robbie Stelling guest special | The North East Non-Elite Ep13

Added: 2026-05-20

[00:00:00]Right, everyone, welcome back to the uh the Northeast on the podcast. This is what, episode 13?

[00:00:04]Uh and today we've got a special guest, Robbie Sterling. Thanks for coming on, Robbie.

[00:00:08]Thanks, Will. It's great to to great to be here. It's uh it was safe to say it was a season last year full of uh ups and downs, so plenty to discuss. And from a Hartlepool United perspective, of course, hopefully looking forward to uh a really exciting future under the new owner, Landon Smith.

[00:00:24]Mhm.

[00:00:25]So, kind of talk us through like your beginnings. What was like obviously you're a Hartlepool fan. Obviously you've covered the club for a couple of years, but obviously you're not from Hartlepool, you're from down south, aren't you?

[00:00:34]Yeah, exactly. So, I grew up uh in Hampshire, so about as far from Hartlepool really as it's possible to get certainly within the confines of England. A lot of people will know my dad, Jeff, who is a very passionate and vocal supporter of Hartlepool. I'm the eldest of three kids. And if I'm absolutely honest, when I was growing up, I didn't have a whole host of choice when it came to supporting Hartlepool United. Some of my earliest memories are heading off to football training. And where I lived uh there were a lot of Southampton shirts, a lot of Portsmouth shirts, and then your usual Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal. But I was always kitted out in a Hartlepool United shirt. To be honest, before I really knew what Hartlepool United was, certainly before I really knew where it was. In terms of my own career, I actually started out as a trainee as a as a history teacher.

[00:01:28]Um I think part of that was because I tried in some ways to avoid following dad's path, but I think I fairly soon realized that journalism was maybe the profession for me. I had a couple of really amazing years working in Berkshire, where I worked for a weekly newspaper.

[00:01:47]I had some really good mentors there, some really experienced journalists. I did all sorts of sports as well, so I covered football up to National League South level, but I did rugby, cricket.

[00:01:56]There's a big horse racing area as well, so I did a lot of that. So, it's a really good chance to sort of cut my teeth and learn the ropes as a journalist. And then in March 2023, I got the job as the Hartlepool United writer at the Hartlepool Mail. Did 2 years there. I remember vividly just my second game in the job was a game that a lot of Pools fans will remember because it was the the 7-0 defeat to Gateshead, which I think at the time was their their heaviest defeat for for about 30 years.

[00:02:29]And And ironically, one of my last games as the Hartlepool United writer at the Mail was a 7-0 defeat to Wealdstone. I think so much happened during that time.

[00:02:41]There was obviously a takeover. I became involved myself in some personal issues with the the the former owner Raj Singh as well, which actually led to me being banned from the ground for around about 8 months, including the first half of last season. There was so much drama, so much tumult on the pitch and purely footballing terms. I think you could make the case that Pools made at best negligible progress. I certainly hope that there's going to be some more progress under the new owner Landon Smith. I'm starting out a slightly new venture. I'm working with a platform called Counter Press. I'm going to be covering Pools in a very similar sort of way, just through a slightly different format where we're going to do things ever so slightly differently, some different priorities, some different focuses. But, I'm really pleased and really excited to be back in the town, back in amongst it, and looking forward to to getting going once again to cover the team.

[00:03:37]Also, you mentioned you joined like the Hartlepool Mail in 2023 towards the end of that season. Um Like that was that that season was I'm getting this right. Was that the season we we relegated?

[00:03:51]Uh no, so that would have been the first season back in the National League. So, the first manager I worked with was Kevin Phillips. So, even though I was only at the mail for 2 years, I worked with Kevin Phillips, Darren Sarll, Lenny Lawrence, Anthony Limbrick, Simon Grayson, and Nicky Featherstone. And I think that alone gives you a an insight into the sort of higher and fire culture that became so associated with Hartlepool United, certainly under Raj Singh. I mean, from a journalist point of view, actually all the managers were great to to deal with. I got on really well with them. Obviously, really different people and and really different characters. But, it was a challenge in and of itself because you a lot a big part of journalism is about how you form those those relationships, that that trust and that mutual respect.

[00:04:46]And certainly, with certain number of those managers, actually pre-Nicky Featherstone, really.

[00:04:50]I don't think any of those managers lasted more than 17 games. A number of them lasted fewer than that. So, it was quite difficult to really form those relationships. And often, when you just started to build that trust and establish that mutual respect, they would then be out the door, which was challenging in a way. But, you just got to look at those managers and their different profiles, their different levels of experience.

[00:05:15]Obviously, Lenny Lawrence, the most experienced of those, more than 1,000 games in professional management. I think at the time he was in charge of Pools, he was the third oldest active manager in the world. The only two older than him were national team managers, as well. And then you compare and contrast that to someone like Kevin Phillips, who was in his second job in management.

[00:05:36]Anthony Limbrick, a relatively obscure name who had some experience, but but some sort of different experience in that he'd managed in Wales, he'd managed in Gibraltar. Did have a spell in England with Woking, of course, as well.

[00:05:50]And Darren Sarll, again. And then you've just got to look at I think the profiles that Pools chopped and changed to. I remember having a long chat with Kevin Phillips about at the end of of that season, '23, my first year in the role, about the fact that he wanted to build a squad capable of playing possession-based attacking football. And then the club went to Darren Sarll, who was in many ways the antithesis antithesis of that. He had a very different focus on pragmatism and and being direct. And in the end that kind of didn't work for the Pools fans, did it? But I think what Landon Smith and the new ownership need to do, and Bromby and Partners, of course, the specialist football consultancy firm need to do is they need to, I think, try and define what they want Hartlepool United to be in terms of a club, but also in terms of a football team. That footballing identity is so important, and that will help massively in terms of the appointment of managers, and crucially the recruitment of players as well, because that was something I think that lacked under Raj Singh. And I think if Landon Smith can get that right, then that'll be a big step in the right direction.

[00:06:55]When you got the job at like the Mail, did you know how much of a challenge it would be under like Woking like kind of co-co alongside Raj Singh?

[00:07:03]That's such an interesting question, Will. I certainly went into it with my eyes open. My predecessor, Joe Ramage, had also been or had been banned from from the ground. Raj had disagreed with some of the things that he'd written, but you guys will know that as journalists, having that freedom is so important. So, while I went into the job with my eyes open, I maintained a determination to report the facts as I saw them without any bias or agenda. But I think inevitably I was aware that given some of the chaos and divisiveness and the discontent among fans. Not everything that I reported or said or wrote was not was going to be favorable to Raj Singh certainly as he sees it.

[00:07:51]He's renowned as a as a relatively confrontational figure. That said, prior to taking the role, I had a personal relationship with Raj. I did know him. I actually watched the 2021 playoff semi-final and final as a guest of his.

[00:08:08]My dad, Jeff, actually had a role in in bringing him to the club. Pools were obviously were in dire straits at the time. I think faced with the threat of potential administration. I think given Mr. Singh's links to Darlington, had they not been in such a precarious position, the fan base would have really struggled to accept him coming in to take over. But, I think I was mindful of the fact that despite the obvious disappointment of relegation, there were some positives to Singh's tenure. That's really important to consider, especially as I speak to you now having been through a really difficult year, which as I said ended up with me being banned from the ground and really at loggerheads with Mr. Singh.

[00:08:50]And it was really challenging from a personal and professional point of view.

[00:08:54]But, there had been some positives to his tenure. Obviously, I think you can look at the the financial foundations that he laid. Certainly, probably left the club in a in a more solid financial position than when he found it. But, obviously, there were some big problems on the pitch. Hartlepool United has a proud history of being a Football League club, and there is an expectation amongst fans that that is where they should be. And if they're not there, then I think fans want to at the very least see Pools challenging and competing at the top end of the National League, albeit a very competitive National League. I mean, you've only got to look at the season that we've just had, both York and Rochdale being promoted, but Rochdale needing the playoffs, needing penalties indeed in the final despite having amassed well over a hundred points. There's a lot of conversation around the the three up campaign.

[00:09:45]So, I was aware that it was going to be challenging. I think initially in particular, I didn't really have any contact from Raj. That wasn't a huge surprise. I think he does tend to keep himself to himself. But, I did have a couple of lengthy conversations with Joe Monks, the recently departed head of football operations. And initially at least things started off on a positive footing. But, I was definitely mindful throughout of the challenges. I don't think it helped that the club went through a really chaotic period towards the back end of the season before last when obviously Mr. Singh resigned from his role as chairman and then eventually returned after the collapse of the takeover negotiations. There was that really contested vote amongst season ticket holders as to whether Singh should return to his former role or not. And And during that time, my dad who who had been the honorary president of Pools decided to resign in part in protest at the handling of the takeover negotiations. And I think in part in protest at Singh's leadership. He certainly wouldn't have done that unless he felt it was really the only avenue and the best thing to do for the club and its supporters. But, from then on I could really sense that the storm clouds were beginning to gather. My position position was becoming a little bit precarious and it ended up being a really dramatic few months. But, to answer your question, well yes, I was always mindful of some of the potential perils and pitfalls.

[00:11:19]I went into it as I say with my eyes open, tried to do my best to negotiate, to be reasonable, but also to report the facts without bias or agenda. I tried to do that until the end. Obviously, Mr. Singh didn't necessarily agree in every aspect. By the end, that wasn't a huge surprise, but it was a challenging 2 years in many ways, but but it was also one in which I developed a lot personally and and professionally and certainly took a lot out of it.

[00:11:45]I just want to touch on like this summer which well, last summer. There was a also you you yourself and Rob Law got banned. You had the vote. Like, what do you think the strategy was from Raj cuz it felt like it almost felt like from a fan base point of view, it was like divide and conquer, if you know what I mean. You know, you don't often see a lot of owners put like their position out to a vote from the fans.

[00:12:06]It was exceptionally bizarre. And as a fan, I felt that at at times Raj was playing fast and loose with the future of the football club. In many ways, it felt to me, particularly around the votes, that Mr. Singh was effectively offering the fans either his return or for the club to be threatened again with administration. But, I always felt that there was a third way. Mr. Singh could enter into negotiations with one of a number of interested parties. And at times, I didn't really feel as though that was represented by the club's ownership or leadership structure. And that was really frustrating because Hartlepool United is a big club for this level, but it's a fantastic club. It's a community club. It does lots of good work in the community. And it means so much to so many people. In many ways, Hartlepool United is the heartbeat of the town. It's often said that when the fut- when the when the club is doing well, the town will prosper and vice versa, as well. They are so inextricably interlinked in a way that I think a lot of National League clubs are not. There are obviously some huge clubs in the National League, but there are also some clubs where it feels more like supporters follow the team as a pastime or they have a second team that they follow in the National League. There aren't many Pools fans who follow multiple clubs. People are so committed to it.

[00:13:31]I think it was such an ever-changing and unusual situation that obviously Mr. Singh isn't isn't here to to respond to this, but I'm not sure that he always knew what his next move was. There was certainly a sense of of chaos. I think Jay, as you say, there was certainly a sense of divide and conquer as well because fans were in many ways split down the middle. I mean, you've only got to look at the result of that vote. 63% voted in favor of Mr. Singh, which I don't think was it exactly a unanimous vote of support, especially given the really precarious circumstances in which the club found themselves.

[00:14:11]I think Raj, if you look at how he deals with criticism and conflict, when he feels as though he's backed into a corner. And And again, he might say something differently. Of course, he's not here to to respond at the moment. He tends to come out swinging, and I think he tried to get back onto the front foot. Rob and I were obviously one of a a number of people who fell foul of that in different ways. Just prior to the appointment of Simon Grayson, I had a phone call from someone in a senior position at the club to say that I wasn't going to be allowed to attend Simon Grayson's initial unveiling press conference. I think in the end actually that that a number of members of the media had a similar phone conversation. They ended up just doing a club interview because a lot of people were the gates were being barred, if you like. But at the time, we were we were still hopeful that we were going to be able to find a solution because I think, taking myself out of it, it was a really bad look for the club. It's rarely a sign that things are going well when free and independent media are not being allowed to attend home matches, they're not being allowed to attend the training ground or press conferences. We weren't allowed to speak to the managers or players either at home or away games other than to say, "Hello, how are you doing?" We we were not really allowed any other contact other than that. And it didn't look good for the club. I think it was a sign that there was some frustration and and discontent there. We tried our best to find some sort of compromise to to meet in the middle. We tried throughout to maintain an open dialogue and a constructive dialogue with Mr. Singh and with the club, but that became very, very difficult. I think there was only so much ground that we were prepared to give in order to give ourselves an opportunity to get back into the home ground because that was of course massively important to me and to the Hartlepool Mail because it was so influential in how I do my job.

[00:16:13]Effectively, for the first half of the season, we were hamstrung in terms of not being able to watch half of the matches, not being able to conduct interviews. And when you're just in and around the place, you get a feel for what the mood is like amongst the squad, amongst the management. You might pick up little bits of information here and there. It helps add color and context to your reporting, as well. So, it was very, very difficult. We tried We were still trying up until Landon Smith's takeover to try and find some sort of solution. But at times, if I'm honest, it did feel a bit like we were banging our head against a brick wall.

[00:16:47]But I suppose all's well that ends well.

[00:16:49]It was certainly a challenging period.

[00:16:51]Rob Law, who's obviously a fantastic journalist, was a really steadfast support throughout. And although I wouldn't obviously have wished the situation for that Rob found himself in, as well, and that that BBC Tees uh from a wider point of view found themselves in, as well. Rob was a fantastic support, as well as loads of my colleagues, loads of people at BBC Tees, as well. So, in some ways, I think we felt that we had a little little of solidarity between the two of us. And look, I'm a young journalist. I've only been in the profession for four and a bit years, and inevitably, you do learn on the job. I learned some difficult lessons, but if I had my time again, even knowing what I do now, I think pretty much everything that I did, pretty much all of my coverage, I would have done the same or something very similar. I maintain that in general, I was extremely balanced. I was extremely fair. I'm sorry that Mr. Singh didn't necessarily feel that way, and he didn't like some of the things that were being written about him, but I always tried in the best possible faith to report the facts of an ever-changing and really complicated situation.

[00:18:00]You talked about like quite a few like schmaltz moments there, especially with like the ownership and stuff. Did you have any really good moments like obviously you won the National League playoff final, didn't you, against Was it Torquay? Yes, so that was I mean, that was just prior to to when I took the job at the Mail, but that was I think as a as a Pools fan of my age, I can remember the 2005 playoff final, which obviously ended in defeat for Pools. They were 10 minutes away from reaching the Championship for the first time in their history when Chris Westwood was slightly controversially sent off. Sheffield Wednesday were awarded a penalty and went on to win the game in extra time. I think I would have been six or seven, so I only have a vague memory uh of that day, and I safe to say, I think being a Pools fan, there have been probably more lows than highs. Actually, just before we came on to record this, I still saw a stat about teams with the worst goal difference over the last 10 years or something like that. I think Pools topped that table minus 500 and something. I think that's just about the only table that they've topped in my adult lifetime, in truth. Of course, there have been a couple of good moments. There have been a couple of promotions, but that 2021 playoff final and I think the manner of the way that they won promotion Pools never really were in contention to win the league title that year, but if you can win via the playoffs as Rochdale have just found out they obviously would have loved to have gone on and won the league, but it is a very sweet albeit heart-stopping way of doing it. Of course, I was at the game and I remember sitting next to Dad. Pools were 1-0 up with I think 96 minutes on the clock and we'd been watching through our fingers for about 85 of those.

[00:19:45]I gave it the kiss of death really because for the first time Pools cleared a ball into their box and I turned to Dad and said, "I think we're going to do it." Fast forward 30 seconds Lucas Covolan the Torquay goalkeeper had equalized and then it went to penalties, but Pools won through in the end despite missing their first two penalties in a really dramatic shootout, but in terms of best moments in the job, when I came to take the job at the Hartlepool Mail, I would have loved to have seen Pools challenge if not win promotion. That never really quite happened. I think they finished 12th, 11th, and then ninth and albeit they occasionally have flirted with the playoffs, it's always felt like they had only an outside chance, but I've got to work with some amazing people. As I said, I had some great relationships with all the managers. Working with someone like Kevin Phillips given his esteem and prestige as a footballer was absolutely brilliant. And then there were people like Anthony Limbrick who I had a a really good relationship with as well.

[00:20:47]Loads of great players.

[00:20:49]Have to say Manny Duku who obviously scored that late equalizer to to keep Rochdale in the tie in the playoff final was an absolute pleasure to deal with.

[00:20:57]Really happy to see him go on and do so well. And although I'm beginning a new chapter with a new venture covering Pools for a different outlet next season. I have to say that the final few months of my tenure at the Hartlepool Mail, to be there to to see when the club were taken over by Landan Smith, to have some really positive conversations with Landan Smith about the future of the club, some of the really exciting and innovative and forward-thinking plans he's got to help Hartlepool United succeed and sustain that success on and off the pitch. That has been a real high point as well. As I've said to you, I think Raj was saying inevitably his legacy is going to be complicated and controversial. That in many ways was the character that he is, but it's easy to sit here and say it was all bad. I felt frustrated that I was banned from the ground, but that's not necessarily the case. When Singh inherited the club, he took over with the club in a really difficult financial position and he had certainly helped to stabilize that. And if Landan Smith can go on and help Pools kick on and achieve success, then Raj Singh will deserve some credit for his role in that. That said, I think the division and discontent amongst the fan base made his position, certainly in the final few months of his tenure. I think certainly since that very controversial episode we've already discussed with the resignation, the vote and the subsequent return, his position was probably untenable and I think for Pools to move forward on and off the pitch, change was needed. And the fact that it actually came almost out of nowhere, I think six weeks from start to finish, the negotiations meant that people didn't really have much of an idea or an inkling. The fact that it happened on New Year's Eve meant that there was almost inevitably a bit of a celebratory mood. And in many ways that was a really special moment as well. And I'm hoping that as I embark on this new chapter, there are going to be some more special moments because as a as a fan, but also as a as a professional, you know, it I I I I have so much respect for so many of the people at Pools. And of Of I'd love to see the fan base rewarded for their passionate support. It would be great to see Pools go on and challenge for promotion and hopefully return back to the Football League in the next couple of years.

[00:23:10]When when Raj was at Pools, there was always a lot of talk about our budget and stuff like that. Do you think budget was actually the problem or do you think the problem was more the fact that he's not been advised by the right people and the football decisions were the problem, you know, sacking managers every every few games, you know, changes of style of play. Do you think that was more of the issue?

[00:23:28]Well, I think the budget obviously Pools didn't necessarily have a top-end budget. I mean, you look at last year and and some of the wages that York City must have been paying to attract some of the players that they did. It was always going to be very difficult to compete with a club like York City or a club like Carlisle United or Forest Green Rovers who also have really big financial backers. But nonetheless, I think Pools had a competitive enough budget. I think if you look at the summer just gone, after all that happened and Simon Grayson was appointed as manager, Pools signed some players that would suggest they were able to spend at least a competitive amount on wages. You look at someone like Alex Reed who must have been really sought after given his really strong loan spell with Wealdstone. You would imagine that they were paying a decent wage comparatively for the National League to attract players like him. I think there were a lot of problems though with Raj Singh's leadership. Not least Jay, as you've already said, I think some of the decision-making was questionable. I think without having been necessarily in and amongst it or privy to the decision-making process or Raj's way of thinking, there was a sense that there were not necessarily a whole host of football people advising him. I think that was a big problem. I don't know that Mr. Singh is always that inclined to listen to dissenting voices. I think if you look at the regime that supported Singh, a number of those people who were in positions of power and influence were dependent on Singh because they were Singh's appointments. So, if they were to go against him and challenge him, they could potentially be putting their job at risk. So, that was a very difficult position for them to be in, but of course what it creates is a bit of an echo chamber. Mr. Singh doesn't necessarily like criticism as I found out the hard way, but sometimes you need to hear it. No one has all the answers.

[00:25:31]Mr. Singh is a very successful businessman in his own right. He had plenty of business interests, and running a football club is a really challenging and all-consuming thing to have to do. So, I think it's inevitable that you can't do it all by yourself.

[00:25:47]But, you look at teams like Barnet and Bromley who have had real amazing success in the last couple of years without necessarily having the financial pulling power of someone like a York or a Carlisle. They've done that because they've got a clear footballing identity. They've got a way of playing.

[00:26:05]If you think about Barnet under Dean Brennan, you know exactly how they want to play. Free-flowing possession-based football. If you think about Bromley under Andy Woodman, you know exactly how they want to play. They're going to be more direct. They're going to be physical. They're going to go back to front quickly. Both of those ways have their relative merits as we've seen.

[00:26:22]Both of them can lead to considerable success. But, those are two good examples I think that go to show that doesn't have to be all about money and budget. Of course, we do all love to have the biggest budget in the division.

[00:26:35]That would inevitably give you a really good opportunity, a really good way of potentially succeeding. But, you can have all the money in the world if you don't know how to spend it. If you don't know how to operate effectively on and off the pitch. If you If your recruitment isn't right, if you're not able to take criticism and listen to different ideas and points of view, you're not necessarily going to be guaranteed success, no matter your budget. I think if you think about Landon Smith, the new Pools owner. I think if you hear a American investing in a National League football club, you inevitably think of Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney. I don't think Pools are going to have quite the same financial wherewithal as Wrexham. But again, I think it it if there can be a healthy competitive level of investment backed up with a clear footballing identity, football people making footballing decisions, recruitment clearly needs to improve vision as well. I think that's really, really important, then you clearly can be successful. Look, of course, Raj was part of a successful team at Pools in 2021 when they won promotion. And that a large part of that stemmed from the fact that Dave Challinor was an incredibly shrewd appointment, but that Pools recruited well and they had a clear way of playing. They had a way of doing things. They had a way of operating.

[00:27:53]They had a clear game plan each and every time they took to the field. And I think those things are so important. And I think certainly towards the end of Mr. Singh's tenure, there was so much in-fighting and off-field discontent that probably some of the priorities that should have been on the pitch, improving the playing squad, making those footballing decisions, were probably put to the back burner. And that's one of the reasons I would imagine that Pools suffered and endured a pretty underwhelming season once again.

[00:28:24]Um so, we briefly touched on there about, you know, Raj and his like his footballing decision making. How refreshing is it to see, you know, Landon's come in and sort of taken a step back and went, "Actually, you know, the football operation isn't my strength." And he always brought in Bromley and Partners to plug that gap.

[00:28:41]I think that's massively important. As you say, Jay, we touched on already the fact that during Raj Singh's tenure, there was a sense that there probably weren't as many football people in place to make the footballing decisions.

[00:28:57]Indeed, at times it was difficult to know exactly who was making which decisions. You obviously had Raj Singh, you had Joe Monks, the divisive head of football operations, and then you had the manager and at times a fairly threadbare coaching staff. So, you would assume that there was only one or two or at best a handful of voices making some really fundamentally important footballing decisions. Landon Smith is a very different character to Raj Singh. I first met him in the immediate aftermath of his takeover on his first visit to Hartlepool. I think he'd actually only just touched down on a flight from the US when he was ushered in front of I think 15 or 16 members of the media, spoke really, really well. He is humble, he is less egotistical, less chauvinistic, but he's obviously a really successful businessman in his own right. And I get the sense that one of his secrets to success in the business world is knowing his strengths and also knowing where his strengths don't lie and where it's important to appoint the right people to implement the right decisions. And I think he's trying to in many ways mirror that strategy when it comes to the running of Hartlepool United. He is a sports fan, but of course he is based in the US and his knowledge of football is somewhat limited, certainly. I think his knowledge of National League football prior to his purchase of Hartlepool United was unsurprisingly relatively limited. So, in that sense it's massively important that he puts his faith in the right people because inevitably he's not going to know it all. Bromby and Partners have a pretty impressive track record. Certainly, they've got plenty of work to do at Pools, not least the appointment of a new manager and the recruitment of almost an entirely new squad. But, they've had success elsewhere. They've got some influential figures with good reputations, and you would think that that would bode Pools would stand Pools in good stead and bode well. Certainly, the early signs, I think, have been relatively positive and promising.

[00:31:16]Inevitably, Smith has adopted a pragmatic and patient approach to the first few months of his stewardship.

[00:31:23]That, I think, almost had to happen just by the very nature of the fact that he took over midway through the season. The summer, of course, is going to be the acid test both for Bromby and Partners and for Landon Smith himself. If Pools can have a positive and successful and proactive and productive summer, then that could stand them in really good stead ahead of what might well be a hugely successful and exciting season.

[00:31:45]But, it is very important that they get these things right. Inevitably, in football, you live and die by your recruitment and your appointment of a manager. Those are two massive things that Pools can't afford to get wrong this summer.

[00:31:59]You talked about how he came in like halfway through like last season. How do you look back on last season? Cuz obviously, you had some impressive results, but then you obviously you lost like to teams like Gainsborough Trinity and FC Halifax. You lost 7-0 to Wealdstone. How do you look back on it?

[00:32:13]Yes, indeed. I think last season will ultimately be remembered more for what happened off the pitch than what happened on it. I think the takeover should have really significant consequences for the long-term future of Hartlepool United. In many ways, the season and what happened on the pitch will become, I think, a footnote in history. For many Pools fans, it probably was a forgettable season given that they finished outside the playoffs once again. The season really rather fizzled out. But as you say, Will, there were actually some really memorable matches and results, most of which memorable for the wrong reasons. Two humiliating cup exits against Gainsborough Trinity of the Northern Premier League Premier Division and Alfreton Town of the Northern Premier League Division One Midlands. Two results which I think were widely considered among the worst in the club's entire history. There was of course the bruising defeat as you say again, Will, to Wealdstone. And there are a number of other low points as well. Pools lost 4-0 at Woking in January in Landon Smith's first game as Hartlepool United owner.

[00:33:28]They were beaten 3-0 at home to Aldershot. They lost 3-0 to a really impressive Boreham Woodside. I think the frustrating thing for a lot of Pools fans is that we reel off those really poor results against so-called lesser sides. But actually, Pools tended to equip themselves relatively well against a lot of the better teams in the division despite that bruising defeat to Boreham Wood who were obviously supremely impressive this season and unlucky in the end not to win promotion. They beat Rochdale 2-1 on December the 30th. I think at the time Rochdale had been on a really long winning run. They comfortably beat Carlisle after the turn of the year 3-1.

[00:34:09]And there were a number of other really good performances. For whatever reason, Pools weren't able to really string a run of consistent wins and performances together. It felt like every time they got to within striking distance of the top seven, they seemed to falter. They produced some really poor performances.

[00:34:29]Whether that was a case of not being able to handle the pressure and expectation or whether it was a case of the fact that they just weren't quite a complete squad. They were at times a little bit patched together in many senses. As happened so often at Hartlepool United, they spend the summer building a squad according to one manager in this instance, Simon Grayson's personal preferences and tactics, only for that rule book, if you like, to be ripped up by October-November time. Nicky Featherstone, of course, came in, professed to have very different ideas about how the game should be played, but had to make do with a squad inherited rather than assembled by himself.

[00:35:11]It was a really competitive National League this season. I think there were a number of good sides. I think in the end Pools finished about where they deserved to be.

[00:35:21]As so often, I think pretty much since relegation back to the National League, the key word is probably frustration. It was an underwhelming season on the pitch, but as I say, the change off the pitch Pools fans will be hoping will lead to more success on it in the future.

[00:35:35]Also, Nicky Featherstone departed towards the end of the season. What did you make of that decision? Cuz like as you already mentioned, your it was a squad which he inherited. He didn't really get his chan- chance to build his own his own squad.

[00:35:47]It was very difficult for for Nicky Featherstone for that reason. I think in the end his departure probably became inevitable. I'm a big fan of Nicky Featherstone. He was great to deal with in the media. I know he divided opinion at times as a player, but if you look at some of the statistics, I think the club's third highest appearance maker of all time, a captain for a number of years, integral part of that 2021 promotion-winning squad. And telling perhaps that so many Pools managers, and my goodness, he played under his fair share, put a lot of faith in him either as a captain or a leader and certainly as a regular in their side. Probably the Hartlepool United manager's job, which is a really difficult job, especially given the current climate, came a little bit too early in his managerial, or certainly in his coaching career. Even I think it felt probably inevitable that at some point he would be the Hartlepool United manager given his links to the club. He obviously knows Pools like the back of his hand, certainly better than anyone currently employed by the club. But he did such a good job in interim charge that I think there wasn't really much else the club and Raj Singh at the time could do but to appoint him on a permanent, or at least semi-permanent until the end of the season basis. He obviously lost his first game at the helm. That was that FA Cup replay defeat to Gainsborough Trinity. Albeit he only had about 48 hours prior to the sudden, after the sudden sacking, sorry, of Simon Grayson.

[00:37:17]From then Pools went seven games unbeaten, and there were certainly some much improved performances during that time. After he got the job on a permanent basis, the aim was obviously to try and finish in the playoffs, but I think Pools were always fighting a losing battle. They needed to string a run of wins together, something they never really looked capable of doing.

[00:37:40]I think again, much like as a player, Featherstone, for whatever reason, divided opinion amongst the fan base. There were some really impressive performances, but there were some really poor ones as well.

[00:37:54]I think probably the one thing that he never quite managed to do in terms of winning over the fan base. I felt sometimes the way he set up, his tactical approach, his team selection, were a little bit too negative. Now, Featherstone would often make the case that he inherited a certain group of players. He felt that they were designed to play a certain way, and maybe didn't suit his way of playing, or his professed way of playing football. But even then, I think to be successful at Hartlepool United, especially at Victoria Park, the home ground, which can be such a difficult place for away teams to come. But, when things aren't going well, it can be a difficult place for the home team to play as well. You have to get on the front foot. You have to play with some blood and thunder. I think whether you believe that's the right tactical approach or not, it is the only one which fans will accept.

[00:38:42]Now, there has to be an element of pragmatism, and there has to be an element of sensibleness in how you approach certain matches. But, for me, I felt Pools showed too many opponents too much respect, especially at home. It might not have been Featherstone's squad, but they had some capable players. Alex Reid didn't quite happen for him at Hartlepool United, but came off a season where he scored loads of goals in a struggling Wealdstone side.

[00:39:08]Terrence Sinclair was really impressive after arriving on loan from York.

[00:39:13]Charlie Caton showed what he can do in flashes. There were talented attacking players. And then, behind them, talented technical players, someone like Jamie Mago, who I felt despite showing some promise, Nicky Featherstone never quite managed to get the best out of him because he didn't always play him in his best position. He didn't always ensure that Pools tried to play through him.

[00:39:33]Sometimes, I felt like the tactical setup wasn't designed to get the best out of Hartlepool United's most influential attacking players. And I think a lot of the fans would probably share that sentiment. And because of that, because of his reputation as a player as well, where he was often considered to be cautious and somewhat negative, albeit, I think, at times very, unfairly, fans felt that he was maybe a little bit unimaginative tactically, a little bit unadventurous, as well. And I think because of the division amongst the fan base, it became very difficult to see how he was going to retain his position as Hartlepool United manager, especially given his relative lack of experience.

[00:40:15]But, having said all that, it now feels really important that whoever Pools appoint next is someone that the fans can get behind. Some of the names being bandied about, whether experienced or otherwise, I do have some concerns as to whether the fan base are going to universally unite [clears throat] behind them. And at Hartlepool United, perhaps more than at a lot of other National League clubs, that is so fundamentally important to success.

[00:40:39]You talked about some of the players there, like Jamie Myler, Tyrese Sinclair, people like that. How important do you think they would be like a promotion team going ahead next season? Well, I think it's really important that Pools do try and build something. As at a lot of National League clubs, the turnover of players is remarkably high, and I don't think that's always a healthy thing. Look, it's the nature of the beast. As a National League footballer, you are very unlikely to be given a multi-year contract. I think only a couple of the Pools players from last season remained under contract ahead of the upcoming campaign. Jamie Myler is clearly a player that Hartlepool United fans are very excited about. He's obviously got plenty of talent and an impressive range of passing. I still think we can see much more from him, but part of that does stem from how Pools approach games.

[00:41:33]I think it's really important that he is made the fulcrum and the heartbeat of the team, that whenever Pools are on the ball, they look for Myler, who has the range of passing and the technical prowess to get some attacking players into the game and into the right positions where they can hurt opponents.

[00:41:49]Tyrese Sinclair is obviously one that Pools would love to bring back on a permanent basis, having been so impressive. Cameron John, another York City loanee, someone Pools will be desperate, I would imagine, to bring back to Victoria Park permanently.

[00:42:03]They're going to have to do a fair old rebuild because they do not They have not retained a huge number of players.

[00:42:11]It's always really important to have a strong base, a strong spine, and a strong core from which to build.

[00:42:17]Defensively, other than one or two major mishaps, was Hartlepool United's strength last season. So, I'm pleased to see that they retained Rhys Oates McNally, impressive despite his injuries. Maxim Kouogun, generally outstanding. Jake Burton, despite one or two dips in form, pretty impressive and consistent. Certainly energetic and determined. Jamie Sterry, I think ahead of them. And Jack Hunter, potentially could form a solid base. But, Pools clearly are going to need to sign a whole host of players. It's never easy to recruit on such scale, especially in the National League, where you maybe don't have the same sort of access to analytics and video that that teams higher up the footballing pyramid likely to have.

[00:43:03]Whichever way Pools go in terms of their managerial appointment and in terms of their player recruitment, I think it's important they get as much fit done as possible as early as possible. Now, that's not always going to be the case.

[00:43:15]Inevitably, some players will be holding out and looking at what's around, looking at what's available, perhaps willing to bide their time and see what offers come their way.

[00:43:27]But, it is important that Pools, I think, make a plan. What do they want this Hartlepool United team to look like? How do they want them to play? How do they want them to beat teams, score goals, defend well, break down opposition, and then recruit according to that plan. At the National League, certainly, it's important to be adaptable and flexible. And I think it is worth trying to recruit some players that can play in several different positions. But, Pools need quality, as well, I think. Over the last couple of years, at times, there was perhaps an over-emphasis, an over-reliance on trying to recruit players almost purely for their versatility. Yes, it's great to have some utility players in the squad, but you need players that can make the left-wing position, the right-wing position, whatever it is, their own and go and play 30, 40, 45, 50 games if needed and become a really important part of a settled side. Pools have a lot of work to do over the summer in terms of recruitment, and I think before they really start their recruitment, they're obviously going to need to appoint a manager as well, because that's going to be so significant.

[00:44:31]In terms of that manager situation, your last few days we've seen Lee Clark Lee Clark linked to the job, Lee Cattermole. Were those the type of names that you'd sort of expected to be thrown around for the job?

[00:44:43]I don't think they would have been the type of names that anyone would have expected to be thrown around for the job in fairness, Jay. I think it's really important that Pools fans are patient with Landon Smith and the new regime. I've had a couple of really positive conversations with Landon recently, and he's got some really exciting ideas for the club, and he's so determined to make a success of his ownership. He is really respectful of the values of the team, the town, and the people of Hartlepool United, and the people indeed of Hartlepool itself.

[00:45:20]But I would have some reservations about potentially, as it's looking increasingly likely, the possible appointment of Lee Clark, a vastly experienced manager with a good reputation in the game, but prior to his stint with Rotherham, a little bit like Simon Grayson, had had a bit of time out of the game, certainly outside of of management.

[00:45:41]Lee Cattermole is very much at the opposite end of the spectrum, isn't he?

[00:45:44]Has been linked with Pools in the past, but no prior management experience, albeit he does have a good reputation already as a coach, and has got vast experience at the likes of Sunderland and Middlesbrough as a player, so knows the area very well. Will therefore know the unique demands and the unique footballing culture in the northeast and how to handle that. If I was to have a couple of major reservations, however, it would be again, you've only got to look at how some of the fans might respond. I think in particular to the appointment of Lee Clark. Now, a successful summer of recruitment and a strong start to the season might well mean that if it were to be Lee Clark, those worries would soon be forgotten. But if things go the other way and Pools don't start so well, then it's going to be difficult for Lee Clark to turn things around. You look at Darren Sarll. I think a lot of Pools fans felt they should have stuck with Kevin Phillips prior to the appointment of Sarll, and then they were a bit underwhelmed by the appointment of Sarll himself, in part because of his reputation as a pragmatist who prefers direct football. And it didn't take long for the wheels to start to come off, and as soon as they did, the situation became irreversible because the fans weren't convinced by the appointment. At first, they were certainly not inclined towards patience. I think if Pools were to go for someone like Cattermole, they probably would be a little bit more patience, given the fact that he is young and inexperienced.

[00:47:12]But again, you look at those two names. We spoke at the start of our conversation about the sort of haphazard and slapdash process of appointments under Raj Singh. We spoke about how different someone like Kevin Phillips was to Darren Sarll, how different someone like Lenny Lawrence was to Antony Limbrick. And a slight concern I would have is that Lee Cattermole and Lee Clark strike me as being vastly different options, and you wonder whether they would suit this model that we understand Pools have been looking to implement. If it was up to me, look, obviously we don't know who Pools have spoken to. We don't know what they're sort of able to offer in terms of wages, in terms of what they're able to offer in terms of a budget over the summer. We don't know whether it might appeal to some of these characters. For me, I would have loved to see Pools go for Darrell Clarke. Okay, he didn't have a great time at Bristol Rovers. He had a couple of difficult jobs recently, but he is someone who knows and understands the town. He knows what it means to represent Hartlepool United, and he's got personality. I think that's so important. I think one of the things that fans might have felt towards Nicky Featherstone, rightly or wrongly, is that his touchline manner left a little bit to be desired. Look, I'm all for a manager being themselves, but I think fans would like to see a bit of passion and energy on the touchline.

[00:48:41]Darrell Clarke, I think, is someone who will bring that, who will bring that passion and energy, who has broad and strong enough shoulders to be able to handle the expectation and the criticism and take it in his stride in a way that perhaps Featherstone wasn't quite prepared to do. Albeit, he's had his fair share of criticism during his more than decade at Hartlepool United. I think whoever it is, it's worth bearing in mind that this is a very new Hartlepool United regime, and that there is real potential for success, and that the fans have the opportunity to play a really important part in that.

[00:49:16]Look, I I I I think it looks like at the moment it's going to be Lee Clark, but it looked like last week it was almost nailed on to be Lee Cattermole. So, we'll still have to wait and see. I think whatever the case, we are now getting to the stage in the season. You can already see some teams making moves, whether that's player recruitment or whether that's management. I think it's important that Pools start to make those moves. They pick their man, they back him, they support him, whoever it may be, even if it's not met with universal acclaim by the fan base, as I imagine the appointment of someone like Lee Clark wouldn't necessarily be. But, Pools need to get things moving. They're going to need to pick their man, and then they're going to need to work really hard to recruit if they're going to make next season a success. So, I think well, patience and watchfulness has served Pools well, and it is is still going to be important when it comes to the appointment of a manager.

[00:50:04]I'd like to see them get it done sooner rather than later.

[00:50:07]And then there's like a lot of expectation going into next season, especially with like obviously the managers that that you've been linked with like Lee Clark and Lee Campbell.

[00:50:15]Some of the fans haven't been like too pleased with it.

[00:50:18]Well, I think there's always expectation at Hartlepool United in the National League, obviously given their long history of being in the Football League.

[00:50:28]I think they've spent now five of the last seven seasons or six of the last eight in the National League. In the eyes of almost all Hartlepool United fans, that is simply not acceptable.

[00:50:37]This is a Football League club. So, the expectation, no matter what the circumstance or situation going into a new season will always be that Pools ought to be at the very least challenging for promotion. I think you've only got to look at the start of last season, given all the chaos that went on over the summer. Fans still somehow managed to find some optimism and confidence that Pools were going to go on and challenge. It didn't quite materialize, but there will potentially be a new layer of additional expectation given the new ownership and the renewed hope and optimism that that brings with it. The challenge for Landon Smith will be to turn that hope to hope and optimism into genuine sustained belief.

[00:51:17]Give the Pools fans something to believe in and get behind, and there could be a huge opportunity. I think it will benefit Pools that York and Rochdale, I think by far the two best teams in the division, have both won promotion this year. York were only getting stronger and have of course got significant financial resources for this level.

[00:51:38]Rochdale, more really well-run machine.

[00:51:41]Jimmy McNulty is a manager I really like with a really strong squad. You look at the teams coming down, I don't think they're going to have the same financial pulling power.

[00:51:50]Similarly, you look at the teams that have won promotion. They are not necessarily going to come in and upset the apple cart in the same way that a Boreham Wood or a Scunthorpe have done in the season just gone by. That's not to say that they won't, but I think that the National League next season is probably going to be slightly weaker than the National League we've just seen in the season gone by. Carlisle, you would expect to be really, really strong given their significant financial resources.

[00:52:19]They may have a decision to make over Mark Hughes. Mark Hughes himself may have a decision to make as well. Forest Green Rovers again, financially well-backed, but I do have some concerns and questions over the sustainability of their model in the fact that they signed what seemed to me like crazy number of players. It felt like every week they were welcoming new signings. I'm not sure that's really the right way to achieve squad cohesiveness and sustained success again. So, we'll have to see about them. Boreham Wood did fantastically. You would imagine would be keen to build on that success, but it won't be easy given the fact that I don't think they'll have one of the biggest budgets in the division. They might be hard-pressed to hold on to some of their prize assets. Abdul Abdul Malik certainly, I think is a man who will be on the move this summer. Southend is a club I really like with a big fan base, very well supported.

[00:53:11]Didn't quite kick on in the way they might have liked to this season.

[00:53:14]Somewhat underwhelming, albeit I know they did manage to sneak into the playoffs, but having been beaten in the playoff final the year prior, I think they would have maybe liked to have done a little bit better. Scunthorpe as well did really well on their return to the National League. There's always one or two surprise packages as well, but I do get the sense that the division has the potential to be wide open and potentially there for the taking for Pools. That again will add a little bit of pressure and expectation. The fans, as I say, are always expectant, maybe more so this season they have been in recent years, but it's important that Landon Smith, the decision-makers at Hartlepool United, the management, and the playing squad find a way of not just managing that expectation, but relishing it, making it into a positive thing.

[00:54:00]It's good to start football matches as favorites sometimes, and not show opponents too much respect. It's good to go full throttle, be on the front foot.

[00:54:08]It's good to try and intimidate opponents by creating a hostile home atmosphere. Hartlepool United are a big club. I think it's important that they act, operate, and play like a big club at that level next season. If they can do that, they can harness their potential, and it could be a really positive season.

[00:54:27]Do you want to in an outro, Will?

[00:54:30]I'll do I was just going to ask Robbie, do you want to plug your your new website? What's it called, The Monkey's Uncle?

[00:54:34]>> Yeah, Monkey's Uncle. Yeah, brilliant.

[00:54:37]Um yeah, well I'm very much looking forward to getting started with that. I was obviously disappointed in many ways to leave the Hartlepool Mail after two amazing years, but I was absolutely delighted to have this new opportunity to work alongside a company called Counter Press, and to build and develop my own website, The Monkey's Uncle. The exciting thing about that is it's going to have a really personal touch. I'm determined to bring really high-level coverage, insight, opinion, analysis, interviews from press conferences, match reports, all the usual things that I was doing last year as well in terms of player ratings, opinion pieces, exclusive interviews. It's The Monkey's Uncle. I'll be getting started next month. You can register if you go on my social media at Robbie Sterling. If you go on my X account, you can register for early interest, which will set you up for some discounted membership, some other sort of interesting perks as well.

[00:55:33]So yeah, I would love it if people could support me and The Monkey's Uncle ahead of the new season, please. Thank you very much.

[00:55:40]Yeah, right. Thanks for Thanks for coming on, Robbie. Really good.

[00:55:42]>> Thanks so much. Cheers. Right, thanks everyone for listening. Thank you, Robbie, for coming on and goodbye.

[00:55:47]Cheers.

[00:55:47]>> Thanks, guys. Perfect. Thank you.