This video documents a Judicial Conduct Tribunal hearing where the tribunal ruled that proceedings should be open to the public and media in the interests of transparency, subject to conditions protecting the judge's medical privacy. The hearing involved a complaint by Judge President C Musi against Judge L J Lekale, who had been medically booked off since 2018 due to visual impairment from diabetic retinopathy. The tribunal established that while the media has an inherent interest in matters affecting the judiciary, the judge's objection to publicizing medical details was valid, leading to conditions including unobstructive fixed cameras and no intrusive camera movements. The hearing also revealed significant financial implications, with the state bearing costs for the judge's salary and official vehicle despite no judicial work being performed.
Judicial Conduct Tribunal Hearing: Judge President C Musi v Judge L J Lekale: 22 July 2026
Added:I'm sorry I didn't switch on my mic. You can blame that on age.
Good morning everyone.
uh Judge President Musi uh Judge Lali and uh the evidence leader and members of the media here present and the secretariat.
We have convened today to commence with the proceedings of the tribunal in accordance with the arrangements that were made on the 24th of March 2026.
And before I say whatever needs to be said, I just want to get the appearances first on record.
over to you. Uh, advocate.
>> Thank you, Trial President.
The appearances are as follows.
the president of the judicial conduct tribunal, the retired deputy president of the SCA.
Um, Xpetsy, members of the judicial conduct tribunals, Judge Skuman, the nonjudicial member of the conduct tribunals, Advocate Munch or Lasana Essie. um and evidence leaders myself, advocate emble >> and of course the respondent judge judge.
If for the record you could then confirm your presence.
>> Thank you.
Yeah, >> thank you.
Yes, indeed. I'm Leon.
I'm the respondent in this matter. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
>> Thank you, Judge.
Judge Legal, I take it that you were provided with copies of the applications that were made by the media uh to who sought to be granted access to these proceedings.
And in the light of your indication that you had an objection to the media being granted access.
I'm inviting you now to address the tribunal as to why the members of the media should not be granted access to these proceedings.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Indeed, these proceedings are personal in nature and the fact that I'm elies now goes to show that this is a personal matter. We should not be allowed to be impeded by anyone except with the permission that he desires.
But this is not confined to your personal situation and circumstances only. uh the the the media as the eyes and ears of the public have an interest in matters relating to and affecting the judiciary.
Isn't that so? Given the nature of the complaint that has been lodged against you by the judge president of your division indeed.
But the very nature of the situation is that this is personal and it goes to show that it was personal because I'm here personally to represent myself.
Well, isn't that a different issue altogether?
In in in fact you might recall that when we met on the I think it was the 23rd of March 2026 and the proceedings were agenda to today uh you undertook to engage a legal representative to represent you at these proceedings which was in any event your entitlement in terms of the Judicial Service Commission. missions act.
>> Yes indeed.
But I decided against it later on because I realized that this is personal and I feel I can represent myself better than anyone else.
>> Yes.
and therefore I decided not to engage anyone to assist me in this regard. Well, obviously no one can question you about the decision that you have taken. Um, even if one were to be of the view that it would have been desirable for you to have a a legal representative.
would any conditions that the tribunal may see fit to attach if it is inclined to grant the media access to the proceedings.
Not sufficiently protect you in so far as the minute details of your illness are concerned.
I'm raising this with you because it's already in the public domain that you were appointed as a judge of the Free State High Court uh uh division in 2012 and you haven't performed any judicial functions.
since 2018.
And and and the media reports even alluded to the fact that the reason why you have not been able to perform judicial functions is because of your visual impairment amongst other things.
Yes indeed, Mr. Chair.
That's the reason why I'm here representing myself.
What reason would there be? Coen reason would there be if the media is granted access to this hearing subject to whatever conditions that the tribunal may see fit to impose in so far as I've already indicated as the disclosure of the minute details of for illness are concerned.
The conditions that may be imposed may be imposed to ensure that I am protected so to say.
I agree that the conditions that may be imposed should ensure that I serve this to the best of my ability. I do all that I can to assist myself and then to present my case properly.
Yes, by all by all means you'll be entitled to present your case and bearing in mind that this is not an adversorial inquiry in terms of the act.
This is an inquisitorial uh inquiry. The tribunal must gather the facts and you don't bear any honors and then decide whether at the end of the day having had evidence presented to it the complaint laid or lodge against you can be sustained indeed I agree.
Have you given some thought as to the nature of the conditions that you believe this tribunal should impose to protect to protect you? That is in so far as the minute details of your illness are concerned or is that a matter that you leave entirely in the hands of the tribunal?
>> Is the matter that I live entirely in the hands of the tribunal.
>> Thank you judge advocate close. Do you have anything to say?
Thank you chairperson.
As evidence leader, I will abide by any decision or direction of the tribunal regarding the media attendance and the publication of any document or information placed before it. I would I ever ask the or request the tribunal to consider that no personal medical information contained in any document or any document itself relating to the medical condition of the respondent be published or otherwise made public safe to the extent authorized by the tribunal.
>> Is that it?
>> Thank you.
>> That's it. Let's check this.
I propose to take for us to for the terms of our At this stage, I propose to take a short agendment strictly for the purpose of formulating ing the terms of the ruling uh that will be made uh when we resume. So shall we Just for the record, uh, I want to state that this is a sitting of the judicial conduct tribunal established by the Chief Justice is on 13th November 2025.
In terms of section 211 of the judicial service commission act 9 of 1994 the act the core assignment that the tribunal is required to perform is to consider whether in the light of the complaint lodged with the judicial Service Commission, the JSC during January 2025 by Judge President Musi of the Free State Division of the High Court against Judge Lal who was appointed a judge in that division on 1 January 2012 is suffering from incapacity as contemplated in section 177 of the constitution of the republic of South Africa.
In essence, the task of the tribunal is to establish and report its findings and recommendation in relation to the complaint to the JSC advocate who is a deputy director of public prosecution and attached to the office of the director of public prosecution Cape Town was duly appointed.
by the National Director of Public Prosecution in terms of section 241 of the Judicial Service Commission Act.
On 24th March 2026, the tribunal of its own accord convene a prehering conference of the parties with a view to explore the possibility of obtaining admissions of certain facts and documents in order to cail the duration of the proceedings and avoid the need for proof in relation to matters that were not in dispute.
This exercise was aimed at expediting the hearing to the extent a reasonable possible.
Consequently, during the conference, agreement was reached in relation to the status of certain documents previously submitted to the judicial conduct committee.
These were a the content of the affidavit of judge President Musi setting out the circumstances giving rise to the complaint.
two that the annex there too which are to the effect that judge legal is clinically and legally blind which condition was prec precipitated by his debitating and worsening uh health condition.
It bears mentioning that for his part, Judge Lal believes that his visual impairment is only temporal because of on the advice he got from his traditional healers. they will regain sight at some uncertain future date.
On 17 July 2026, the secretariat of the judicial conduct tribunal issued a media statement. Firstly to inform the public and all and Sunundry through the media that today the tribunal would convene to consider the complaint.
And in the second place, the media statement indicated that Judge Lal objects to the media and or parties who do not fall within the category of persons who may attend a hearing of a tribunal as provided for in section 29A of the JSC act.
The ground of the objection in essence is that he does not want his medical condition to be laid bare for all and sunundry to know the nature of his illness.
Judge Legal's objection has elicited a flurry of obligations from various media houses judges matter ground up and a Misty Quebec who is who claims to be a doctoral student asserting that these proceedings are of particular relevance to his research.
Raising, as he claims, important constitutional and juristpential questions on matters relating to the judiciary.
All the parties who seek access to the proceedings whilst accepting that as a default position proceedings of the tribunal are held in private as dictated by section 291 of the act. Section 292 nevertheless confers a discretion to be exercised judicially on the tribunal president to determine that the hearing be held in public if it is in the public interest to do so.
There can be no doubt that the judiciary as one of the three arms of state occupies a unique position in the architecture of our constitutional democracy in keeping with the principles of transparency and accountability which are the foundational values of the constitution.
This morning we had the benefit of hearing uh Judge Li who made oral representations in support of his objection to the proceedings being made public.
In essence, the test of his case is that information will be conversed and traversed during the proceedings which is of a personal nature relating to his health condition.
Having considered the argument presented or representations made by the media in their quest to be granted access to these proceedings.
We are satisfied that members of the media, judges matter, ground up and Mr. Kuba have satisfied the threshold that these proceedings are of public interest, dictating that they should be held openly to protect the image and integrity of the judiciary as an institution.
regrettable. We were informed that we were informed by the secretariat of the tribunal that judge Lali has dispensed with legal representation and henceforth will himself be conducting his case.
Advisedly, we will refrain from questioning his wisdom for electing to represent himself for the reasons that he has advanced to this tribunal.
Accordingly, the ruling of the tribunal is that in terms of section 292, this proceeding shall be open to the public and the media in the interests of transparency subject to the following conditions.
One, any equipment to be used by the media will consist of unobstructive fixed cameras operating via a pool feed.
Two, no artificial lightning or intrusive camera movements will be utilized.
Three, broadcasting will at all times remain valid until the conclusion of the hearing. save in instances where the tribunal direct otherwise.
That's our ruling. Thank you.
Before I call upon the evidence uh leader uh to make her opening address if any and to call witnesses in support of the complaint.
I just want to find out from Judge Leal whether he would like to have a short agendment in the light of the ruling that the tribunal has made so as to know exactly where he stands.
Mr. Chair, thank you very much. No, we may proceed. Mr. Chair, >> thank you. Judge Advocate close.
>> Thank you, Chairperson.
President and members of the tribunal.
The complainant in this matter is Judge President Kagny Musi and the the judge president of the free state division of the high court. The respondent is judge lei a judge within the same division.
The evidence to be led will place before the tribunal the background to the respondent's appointment, his position in the free state division and the period during which he has been absent from active judicial duties on medical grounds.
As evidence leader, I intend to lead the evidence of Judge President Musi. His evidence will deal with the background of the complaint, the respondent's prolonged absence from judicial duties, the medical documentation submitted over the relevant period and the effect of the absence on the functioning of the division.
The documentary evidence will include the complaint, the respondent's response, the medical certificates and reports and the relevant judicial regulatory instruments. The medical documentation covers the period from 2018 to date.
The evidence will also address the administrative steps taken in relation to the respondent's absence and the circumstances that led to the complaint being lodged. The evidence will further address the practical consequences of the respondents prolonged absence for the division. Once the evidence has been laid, any further directions regarding submissions will be dealt with as directed by the tribunal.
That concludes the outline of the allegation and the evidence intended to be aduced. Travel President and members of the tribal.
>> Thank you, Advocate Bruce.
Before you call your witness, just some housekeeping rules so that everybody know where they stand. Uh the proceedings will commence at 10:00 in the morning.
We'll take the midm morning agendment 11 or that you know so soon thereafter at the convenience of the tribunal. Then at 1:00 we'll adjend for for lunch um 45 minutes then we'll resume after lunch until 4 in the afternoon.
So no deb over to you then advocate those.
>> Thank you chairperson. Before evidence is used from us. I'm not I'm not sure whether the respondent wishes to address the tribunal before evidence is it used as invisaged in 74 or is >> well I was of the mind that if he is going to present any evidence then he will get the opportunity to make his opening address. Are you comfortable with that judge?
>> Yes I'm comfortable with that Mr. Chair.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you chairperson. I now call Judge President Gagny Musi.
for the record.
Please >> I am Key John Musi.
>> I'm I'm sorry. I have to repeat that because my microphone was uh off. Will you please for the record state your full names? I am Key John Musi.
>> Thank you. JP Musi, do you have any objection to taking the prescribed oath?
>> None. Mr. President, >> do you then swear that the evidence that you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else? If so, please raise your right hand and say, "So help me God." So help me God.
Thank you JP Mosi advocate uh close your witness has been sworn in.
>> Thank you JP.
>> Judge President Musi am I correct in stating that you are currently the judge president of the free state division of the high court.
>> That is correct.
Is it also correct that in respect of the free state division you were appointed as a permanent judge on the 1st of June 2005?
>> That is correct.
>> You were appointed as deputy judge president in the same division in January 2017.
>> That's correct.
And then am I also correct in stating as judge president of the division you were appointed on the 1st of December 2018?
>> That is correct.
>> You are the complainant in the matter currently before the tribunal in which Judge Lari is the respondent. Is that correct?
>> That is correct.
Now in respect of judge Lali, am I correct in stating that he was appointed as a permanent judge of the Free State High Court on 1 January 2012?
>> That is correct.
>> And that according to the records and the documents we have before us, he was born in June 1964 and he's presently 62 years old.
>> Well, according to the medical records, yes. And the records at my disposal at the office. Yeah.
When Judge Lali was appointed as a judge on the 1st of January 2012, you already serving as a permanent judge in the Free State Division.
>> That is correct.
>> Now, Judge President, it seems >> moment advocate please. I just want to find out from judge Lala. Are you following and hearing the evidence of uh Judge President Musi?
>> Yes, I do.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you, Mr. >> Thank you.
You may proceed close.
>> Sorry for the interruption.
>> Thank you, chairperson.
When Judge Lali was appointed as a judge on the 1st of January 2012, you were already serving as a permanent judge in the Free State Division.
>> That is correct.
>> And it seems it's undisputed that Judge Lalia has been medically booked off since the 6th of June 2018.
>> Yes, that is correct.
At that time in June 2018 you were the deputy judge president within the division.
>> That is correct.
>> Now judge president having regard to judge lei's appointment date and the date on which he commenced being medically booked off namely the 6th of June 2018.
He appears to have performed active judicial duties for six years before being medically booked off.
>> Yes.
>> Give or take a few months, but yes. Uh rounded off to 6 years.
>> 6 years and a few months.
>> Yes.
I just want to clarify since the 6th of June 2018, has Judge Lali performed any form of any form of work as a judge?
>> No.
>> Has he ever returned to work since the 6th of June 2018?
>> Unfortunately, not.
Now if you take into account the date of 6th June 2018 and the fact that he has not performed any work um it seems he was is medically booked off for 8 years without performing any judicial work.
>> Yes. Plus minus. Yes.
>> So in other words he's a permanent judge for 6 years but as in perform judicial work for 8 years >> plus minus 8 years. That is correct.
Judge President Mosia, I just want clarity on one thing. Earlier, you in response to a question from the evidence leader said that she has been on sick leave since the 6th of June 2018. That is correct.
Meaning that he is still on sick leave as we speak. He's still on sick leave.
Yes.
Judge President, can you tell the tribunal whether and if so how Judge Lali's prolonged absence affected the functioning of the Free State Division?
>> Thank you. Maybe I should preface that by saying that the complaint itself was lodged after engaging judge Lali about his situation and it is actually lo and deep sense of uh sadness because I've worked very well with judge league uh coming to the practical effect thereof obviously because of the uncertainty the medical reports state that he would be fit for office at a particular date uh that impedes proper planning because before that date another medical certificate comes uh which states that he will be indisposed for a longer period uh in order to make sure that the division functions optimally I am obliged to request the minister to appoint an acting judge in judge Lala's place therefore uh the state actually pays for two judges whilst only one is doing the work in that the acting judge gets a remuneration similar to that of a judge.
Uh the a further uh implication is that when you appoint an acting judge in thestead of a experienced permanent judge, the utilization of that particular judge is also uh limited because there are certain complex and intricate uh civil matters that I could with ease give to or allocate to judge which is is not always necessarily the case when you have an acting judge.
Uh Judge President Mosi, I just want clarity on on this aspect.
I know that you lod your complaint late January 2025.
>> Yes.
And I also know that as the judge president of the division, you had the power to grant leave whether sick or ordinary leave verse in you.
Well, that's part partially correct.
That power was only dissolved devolved to the judges president in 2023 uh >> 2023 >> 2023 July by by way of a government gazette. Prior to that, that power was exclusively uh the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Developments power.
And since you became the repository of that power, on what basis did you then grant leave to judge Lali?
>> Thank you.
>> As you mentioned earlier on that she is on he is on sick leave.
>> Yes. Thank you. uh that was granted by virtue of medical certificates handed in uh periodically by judge Lik uh when the power was devolved to me I had a conversation uh with judge Kali wherein I told him that I am loathed I'll be very lo to grant sick leave uh on the terms and conditions as stated by his medical practitioner and that was basically the start of a long uh engagement with judge. You will note from my complaint. I wrote to two successive ministers of justice in informing them that this situation is untenable and it might lead to embarrassment uh to to the office of the chief justice. I engaged the previous chief justice uh chief justice Zondo uh on the issue and like me he was of the view that this situation can be sorted out amicably uh by way of engaging uh judge lial which I did. Uh then I also engaged the current chief justice and informed her that we I have tried everything and I have reached the end of the road with regard to this issue and granting further leave would indeed be an embarrassment. Uh and I recommended that the judicial service commission uh should be approached because this is an unprecedented situation. She uh rightfully so uh suggested that uh a comp formal complaint should rather be lodged. So that this process as it unfolds now should unfold because of the unwillingness of Judge Lal uh to apply to be what is colloially called medically boarded but uh more technically to be declared incapacitated due to ill health. And that is how the complaint was lodged. It was not something that was done very lightly.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Yes. You indicate that you were given the prevailing sumances load >> to approve his application for leave.
>> For leave. Yes.
>> Did you actually approve it or not?
Well, I actually approved it after engaging intera, the previous chief justice and uh on the advice of the previous chief justice that I should engage judge Lali and see whether uh I can firstly uh convince him to apply to be declared formally declared medically incapacitated but uh as I say he refused. Yes. As he is sitting there now, is he on approved leave of absence by you?
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Thank you.
>> You may proceed. Uh I advocate close.
>> Thank you, chairperson.
Judge President just to clarify the point since July 2013 judge presidents have been vested with the authority to grant sick leave >> and prior to that it was the minister of justice and constitutional development.
>> That is correct.
>> So I just want to take you to your complaint dated 31 January 20 25. It appears to be pages 1 to 31 of the bundle.
>> Yes.
If you look specifically at page 15 onwards, they are annexious containing certain communications.
>> Mhm.
I want you to to explain to the tribunal with this in mind what circumstances actually led you to lodge your complaint that you were lost to.
>> All right. You'll see on page 15 a letter dated 20 September 2023 to the former chief justice Zonda wherein I explain uh the appointment date judge Lala's appointment appointment date and the date on which he is uh sick leave uh commenced which is the 6th of June 2018 and uh I then also explained to the former chief justice that he has had numerous uh procedures including heart surgery. Although that should be corrected up front that Judge Lal was at the heart hospital in Ptoria uh for certain procedures but it was not necessarily surgery and I then say the major comp complication however is that he has been classified as legally blind by his opthalmologist.
Then I say his sick leave up has up till now been granted on a term byterm basis which culminated accumulatively amounts to 5 years and he is currently booked off sick until 31 December 2023 and last paragraph I write to you in order to seek your guidance in this matter because the leave period is inordinately don't >> and then there were communication after that which then lead you to lodge your formal complaint.
>> Yes. Well, uh, the letter of the 22nd of September, 2023, uh, page 16 of the bundle bears out what I said earlier that, uh, former Chief Justice Zondo was of the view that this matter can be resolved amicably. You will see the last sentence of that letter. He says, I suggest that you discuss the matter with just Kali and advise him to consider asking the president to discharge him under the relevant provisions of the above mentioned act. Uh the above mental act is the charges remuneration and conditions of employment act of 2021.
>> Did you discuss it with judge leal and try to resolve it amicably?
Yes, I uh spoke to Judge Lala telephonically and uh he informed me that he would want to seek the advice of his uh medical practitioners. I then reported back to the former chief justice on 28th September 2023 wherein I informed him that I telephonically discussed uh his the contents of his letter with justice judge and he undertook to consult with his doctor and revert.
>> Did Judge Nali revert?
Well, church uh reverted and informed me that uh he is currently on sick leave.
His abthmologist has indicated that he would be fit on a particular day and that he verely believes that he will indeed uh be fit to report duty as he would be able to see at any moment.
And as the discussions progressed, he then informed me what the basis of his belief was.
>> And if you look at the correspondence that we're now dealing with and what is stated there was it's dated 2024. Was this stated in 2024 or in another date? I'm talking of Judge Lali's belief. or his belief. Now since 2024 and and thereafter then judge President am I correct that after the complaint was lodged in January 2025 Judge Lali continued to submit further medical certificates which appears at section HH of the bundle. Yes.
>> Cover the period from 2018 to date.
>> Yes. uh although in the initial stages the indisposition or illness was uh due to the amputation of his uh right leg and also complications in the left leg and but uh in in those medical reports there was already an intimation that judge Lal's eyesight or sight is deteriorating and subsequent to that we received medical certificates from his opthromologist chairperson and members of the tribunal with your leave I'd like to take judge judge president Mosi through the medical records um this part may um may be detailed and at time tedious and I'm request the the tribunal to bear with me it's unfortunate necessary to deal with these medical records in some details in order to place the sequence of events and the reasons advance for the respondent's absence fully before the tribunal for the purpose of any submission that may be made later.
With your leave, I can proceed.
Judge President Musi, I want you to start off with 2018, page 159 in the bundle.
>> Yes.
>> 159 J and it's section HH.
You confirm that section 8 HH is the all the medical certificates and reports that was submitted by the respondent.
>> Yes. Uh they include uh medical certificates subsequent to the complaint being lodged and uh the first medical problem with regard to uh the amputation of judge Lala's leg.
So if you start at if you look at 2018 159 Mhm.
>> it's a medical certificate of Dr. Mafana dated 20 July 2018.
>> Mhm.
It states that it appears to say that on 10th June 2018, Judge Lala underwent surgical intervention namely a below the knee amputation of the right leg and debridement of a specific wound on the left leg.
>> Yes. And it also states that he was admitted on the 6th of June 2018.
>> Yes, it confirms that date.
>> Yes. It also states that the current status at that stage was that um the below the knee stump had not healed. It was anticipated that the stump healing prosthetic manufacturing fitting and eventually training to balance and walk would require of approximately 10 weeks that being from the 20th of July 2018.
>> Yes.
Correct.
>> And he was and he was consequently then unable to resume normal duties until the 30th of September 2018.
>> That is correct.
>> If we move to 160, page 160.
It also appears to be a certificate from Dr. Mafana dated 24th October 2018.
>> Correct.
>> It seems judge Lali was referred to a vascular surgeon, Dr. Tortetsi.
>> Yes, correct.
>> And in Dr. Mafana's opinion, Judge Lali would not be able to resume duty for the remainder of the year.
>> And his sick leaf was extended until 31st of December 2018.
>> That is correct.
Judge President, if you look at 2018 on the available medical records, it appears that he was then continuously booked off from the 6th of June 2018 until the 31st of December 2018.
>> That is correct.
But as I said uh previously, you would note that this only uh referred to the amputation of the leg and the complications of the left uh foot based on the diabetes condition.
>> Let's move to 2019.
>> Yes.
>> 161.
>> Yes.
>> Also appears to be a medical certificate from Dr. on a finer dated 10 January 2019.
>> Correct.
>> The certificate records the readmission date of 2nd January 2019.
>> That is correct.
>> And a clinical finding of a septic leg foot.
>> Left foot. Yeah, left foot.
>> That's correct.
>> The sick leaf was then extended until the 31st of March 2019.
>> Correct.
Thereafter we have 162.
>> Yes.
>> The same doctor dated 1 April 2019.
>> Correct.
>> Where the doctor records that walking therapy was continuing and that the skin graft was taking well.
>> Yes. He further notes poor vision which was attended to by an opthomemologist.
>> Am I correct?
>> Yes. Correct.
>> Okay.
If you look at 162, Judge Lali sick leaf was then extended until the 30th of June.
>> Correct.
>> 2019.
163 also a certificate from the same doctor.
>> Correct.
>> This time dated 28th June 2019.
>> Correct.
>> He said it's it appears to state that he's undergoing walking rehabilitation and notes that the residual footis were healing well.
>> Yes.
He also records deteriorating vision was also being attended to by an opthalmologist Dr. Matana.
>> Matala. Yes.
>> And judge Lali sick leaf was then extended until the 30th of September 2019.
>> Yes. Correct.
Now 164 appears to be another doctor, Professor Wayne Marie, an armsologist of the Free State Medical Center.
>> Yes.
>> If I look at 164, it appears that he notes that um Professor Maria examined Judge Lali on the 13th of September 2019 >> and that he was accompanied by his wife.
Yes.
>> If you look at the certificate, Professor Marie circled the word operation and recorded bilateral retinal operation.
>> Yes. The way I I understood it was that uh he performed an operation on the 13th of September 2019 and uh uh then uh booked judge off from that date to the 30th of November 2019 and it's for that reason that he stated uh recovery post operation >> and then judge Lali was booked off until the 30th of November 2019.
>> That is correct.
At 165 we have a medical certificate of another doctor Dr. Tyro Roui.
>> Yes.
>> An orthopedic surgeon. It seems >> Yes.
>> Dr. The Roy records that judge Lali had an orthopedic condition and was unfit for work from the 20th of October 2019 up to and including and I see it's noted plus minus the end of December 2019.
Yes, just correction that's the 26th October 2019 20. Yes, >> sorry. The 26th of October 2019.
>> Yes.
>> Up to and including plus minus end of December.
>> Correct.
>> If you look at 165, he further notes that Judge Li was still admitted to hospital.
>> Correct.
Now, Judge President, on the available medical records relating to 2019, it appears that Judge Lari remained continuously medically booked off throughout 2019.
>> Correct.
>> And it also appears he was booked off with ongoing complications and the emergent and progression of eye related problems from April 2019 onward.
>> Correct.
Judge President, I'd like to take you to 2020.
>> Yes.
>> Also at 166, we have the another medical certificate of Dr. Roy dated 15 January 2020.
>> Yes.
He then records that Judge Lari was then 55 years old, had been treated for an orthopedic condition and had made a good recovery.
>> Yes.
>> He notes that he would need to continue with physical rehabilitation and would resume duties at the beginning of April.
>> Correct.
167.
The same doctor notes that he consulted with Judge Lali on the 15th of January 2020.
The diagnosis is just recorded as an orthopedic condition.
>> Yes.
>> And that he's still unf for duty from 15 January 20 to 31 March 2020. He would resume work on the 1st of April 2020.
>> Correct. I think uh pages 166 and 167 should be read in tandem. Uh 166 is a report and 167 is a medical certificate that just elucidates the report at 166.
>> Was this for the same period?
>> This was the same exactly the same period.
Now the next page page 168 is it appears to where the medical certificates from Dr. Aa Mala starts >> Mala >> and of themologist and his certificate is dated the 4th of March 2020.
>> Correct.
Now if you look at the certificate it says under nature's of illness/operation/injur injury the doctor records that um judge dala has advanced proliferative diabetic retinopathy.
Yes, that's what written there as far as I could make out.
>> And he was booked off from the 4th of March and it is stated that he may resume work on the 5th of June 2020.
>> Correct.
169 appears to be a duplication of 168.
It seems to be um a picture of the same certificate. The one is just zoomed in.
>> Yes.
>> Could you just explain why why some of them appears to be pictures of certificates?
>> Yes. Thank you. Uh what happened during this period? uh judge would uh request a a colleague uh judge Muritan to submit the medical certificates and at times I would receive the medical certificates via WhatsApp then print them uh in order to file them and inform the chief justice as well as the minister about the sick But part HH of the bundle is this or they are the certificates as received.
>> Yes, they are indeed the certificates as received. You'll see they account for the entire period. Okay. Whether in picture form or not. Yes. Whether picture form or or actually uh hand delivered.
>> Then I'd skip 169 because of the duplication. Let's move to 170.
>> Mhm.
>> A medical certificate of Dr. Matala dated 25th May 2020. It records that judge Lakali was examined on the 25th of May.
>> Yes, correct. And if you look at the certificate, it says or it appears to say according to the doctor's knowledge slashinformation provided to the doctor, he was unfit for work from the 25th of May to 30 June 2020 and may resume work on the 1st of July.
>> Correct.
Just to say just for clarity sake, it says unfit for work/school.
>> Yes. 25th of May.
>> The the doctor omitted to delete that which is not applicable.
>> Okay.
The nature of the injury or the illness or operational injury noted is recorded as a stress. Although the handwriting is unclear at this stage, it appears to be that >> the handwriting >> stress or illness.
>> Yes.
>> Page 171.
Same doctor stated 23rd June 2020.
>> Yes.
It states that judge Lali was examined on the 23rd of June 2020.
Once again, according to the doctor's knowledge slash as informed, he would be unfit for work/ school from the 23rd of June 2020 to the 30th of September 2020. He would resume work on the 1st of October 2020.
>> That is correct.
And then the nature of the illness/operation injury appears to be recorded once again as a soc illness advanced PDR.
>> Yes. Correct.
>> And if you look at the previous certificates PDR meaning advancer diabetic retinopathy.
>> Correct.
especially if you want.
>> Excuse me to interrupt you.
I will get close. The judge President Mosi the the one uh the certificate issued on the 23rd of June 2020.
You know, appears to me to have been issued during the currency of the previous one at page 170 by the same doctor.
>> Uh yes, thank you president. You will note that that is indeed a recurring theme. Most of them are issued during the period of the previous one. As we go through them, you will note that.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> So the certificate is in this instance as highlighted by you in other instances that we'll that we will get to.
>> Yes. The certificate is issued before the expiration of the previous one.
>> Precisely.
>> Then 172, same doctor. The certificate is dated 14th September 2020.
It states that he was examined on this also on the 14th of September 2020.
According to the doctor's knowledge slash as informed, he would be unfit for work/ school from the 14th of September 2020 to the 31st of December 2020 and he'll resume work on the 1st of January 2021.
>> That is correct. Just to point out again that the previous one on 171 stated that uh he will be he may resume work on the 1st of October 2020. Uh and the one on 172 which you uh just read out now was stated 14th of September uh 2020. In other words during the period of the sick leave as the president uh pointed out and I stated that it's a recurring theme.
Now judge president I note if you look at 172 we judge Lali was it stated he may resume work on New Year's Day 2021.
Um could you just explain to the tribunal how it works in respect of recess and uh not being on duty and sick leave and so forth?
Well uh in the free state division we generally have one judge who would be on duty for a period of well during this period a period of two weeks during uh the recess in other words the entire short recesses and we break up the long recesses in others the December and June July recesses and allocate two weeks to two uh two different judges.
uh and if you are not on recess duty and for any particular reason the judge who is on duty uh makes contact with the JP because of urgent matters sometimes you get long complicated urgent matters and then I arranged for a second judge to assist but in just case he was never put on recess duty because of his condition.
But you will further note as we go through the medical reports that there too uh the doctor states that judge the car would be fit uh for duty basically in the recess or may resume duties in the recess period but would be off during term.
Maybe whilst you are on on on on uh 172 you will note that uh you'll resume duty on the 1st of January which is a public holiday general commonly known uh and it is also in the recess period and 14th September 2020 to 31st December 2020 uh partially in the recess partially in term.
Thank you Josh President.
Now if you look at 2020 the year starts with an orthopedic condition with physical rehabilitation with Dr. Funroy um sorry not Funroy Dr. Roy recording that judge Lali had made a good recovery >> but remained unfit for 30 1st of March >> yes >> 2020 and then from March 2020 onwards the dominant issue became the orthmological um condition >> yes correct >> with Dr. Correct.
>> Followed by I related certificates is extending until the 31st like you said 31st of December.
>> Yes.
>> 2020.
Judge President Mosi being in possession of a medical certificate like the one you pointed out at page 172 which said that Judge Lal would be able to resume on the 1st of January 2021 which we all know that the greater part of January was in recess but did you invite him now that um at at least for the duration of the recess he was available uh for you to allocate judicial duties to him.
>> Uh thank thank you president. Let's let's let's uh look at the medical certificates 172. We will note that it it is uh dated 14th September 2020. Just Kala is then booked off from the 14th of September 2020 to the 31st of December 2020. And then on the 10th of December 2020, that is page 173, there's another medical certificate. And that medical certificate then says from the 10th of December to the 31st of March 2021, you would be indisposed and may resume duty on the 1st of April.
So the one at page 172 uh did no more than just raise false hope on your part that you would be available.
>> Precisely.
>> Thank you.
>> Well, maybe all of them.
So, judge President before it appears if you look at 172 and 173 before Judge Lali >> um could resume or resume his duties.
>> Yes.
>> If you look at 173 >> M >> he went to the doctor again on 10th December 2020 before the expiration of 172 >> precisely.
So he was supposed to resume uh duty on the 1st of January 2021, but on the 10th of December 2020, he went to the opthalmologist again and was then booked off until the 31st of March 2021.
>> So in other words, before Christmas and before 172 expired.
>> Yeah. Before Christmas. Yes.
And there at 173 it's noted that according to the doctor's knowledge slash as informed he would be unfit for work/core from the 10th of December 2020 until the 31st of March 2021.
>> Correct.
And the nature of the illness/operation slash injury appears to be recorded as diabetic retin rettopath retinopathy with diabetic and then something legible there.
>> Yes, >> he would he or it states he may resume work on the 1st of April 2021.
>> Correct.
Then 1 74 takes us to into 2021.
>> Yes.
>> Oh, it actually starts by 173 already because it's from the period December until January. I mean December 2020 to the 2021 period. Let's move to 174.
>> Yes, >> it seems to be the same doctor.
>> Yes, >> we examined Judge Lali on the 4th of March 2021.
>> Yes. also during the period that uh he was booked off on 173 because he was uh booked off until the 31st of March but 174 is dated the 4th of March 2021.
>> So there was no room for you for allocating any work if I may >> definitely not.
And then according to the certificate at 174, according to the doctor's knowledge slash as informed, he would be unfit for work/ school from the 4th of March 2021 until the 4th of June 2021 and may resume work on the 5th of June 2021.
>> That is correct.
And the nature of the illness/operation injury appears to be recorded as orthalmic injury sorry illness although the handwriting is also unclear.
>> That is correct.
Judge President, if I look at 174, I do note that the date stamp appears to be 18 March 2021, but it states that the examination took place the 4th of March 2021.
>> Yes, Xf the document that is what appears on it. But uh you will also note that uh it is the first if not the only medical certificate that says uh that judge Kala may resume uh duty in term which is the 5th of June uh 2021.
That's before the recess period.
But judge if that's what I wanted to take you now to 174 because it seems if you look at 175 the very next day >> yes >> the 5th of March >> yes >> the same doctor examined it >> yes >> and the date stamp is now correct >> the date stamp is correct as but the dates on which uh of the date on which may resume duty has now changed to the 1st of July uh 2021 which is in the recess.
>> So am I am I correct if I look at page the certificate under 174?
>> Yes.
He's certified that he may resume on the 5th of June and for some other reason the very next day he consults with him again and it now states from the that is unfit for work/ school from the 5th of March 2021 until the 30th of June 2021 and may resume on the 1st of July 2020.
>> Correct.
In terms of the periods, is this any does that does this have anything to do with the term and the recess period or?
Well, as I pointed out to you on 174, the doctor certifies that uh judge would or may resume duty on the 5th of June 2021, which is or was in term and on the very next day it is stated that he may resume uh duty on the 1st of July 2021, which is during the recess.
And if you look at 175, >> yes, >> it appears that the nature of the illness/operation injury is a thic illness although the handwriting is a bit unclear.
>> Yes.
>> But it's added advanc PDR.
>> Yes.
When looking at the medical certificates at pages 174 and 175 perhaps sitting here I can assume that maybe overnight there was deterioration on of the condition of judge which necessitated another visit the very next day.
>> Yes, that's a possibility.
>> Yes. Thank you >> judge president. Was any explanation given to you at the time in terms of the two certificates?
>> None.
If I move move to page 176, that appears to be the same doctor that examined Judge Lali on the 8th of June 2021.
And according to the certificate, he was unfit for work/school from the 8th of June 2021 to the 30th of September 2021 and may resume on the 1st of October 2021.
>> That is correct. Again, just the point that it was during the currency of 74 that 176 was issued.
a a couple of weeks before the expiration of the >> then it if you look at 176 according to the certificate of the same doctor the nature of the illness/operation slash injury appears to be recorded as advanced Diabetic retinopathy with m macular that's a bit illeible legal blindness.
>> Yes.
>> On the face of it, sorry to interrupt you.
On the face of it, the diagnosis appears, you know, to be different.
looking at >> 174 175 and 176.
>> Yes. Uh President, however, you will see that uh it's the first time that the doctor uses layman's terms and stating that it's legal blindness.
But uh other than that it was uh AD uh PDR and you'll see there on 176 it's also basically advanced uh diabetic retropy whatever the word really is and then the the muscular shi could not make that up but I think that's the reason why the doctor probably clarified it by writing legal blindness. Yes.
So if you look at judge president, if you look at the medical certificates that we just went through and if you look at 176, it appears that on the 8th of June 2021 was the first time that we it has been noted um that he's legally blind.
>> Yes.
177.
The same doctor appears to examine Judge Lali on the 1st of September 2021.
And according to the certificate, he was unfit for work or SL school from the 1st of September 2021 to the 31st of December 2021.
And once again, he may re as in the previous certificate, he may resume work on New Year's Day, that being the 1st of January 2022.
>> That is correct. And uh just to emphasize the point uh 177 was issued in the currency of 176 whilst 176 was still valid. Yes.
And then the nature of the illness/operation/ injury appear to be recorded as advanced proliferative diabetic retinopathy.
>> Yes. And the word after that appears to the handwriting is a bit unclear.
>> Yeah, >> there may perhaps be an explanation for this. But sitting here as someone who's who has no medical background or qualifications uh because 176 and 177 were issued by the same uh doctor.
>> Yes.
>> Uh 176 is sick leave until the 30th of September.
>> Yes. Um, in my mind I would have thought that bearing in mind that you previously issued one that would have uh continued until the 30th of September.
>> Yes. Then if the medical condition of the patient dictated that the patient would need a longer period, then the second one would kick in from the 1st of October to to the 31st of December 2021, for example.
>> But that that's a logical way of looking at it. And I I just thought maybe because Judge Lala was physically there on that date and he decided to put him off again for an extended period. But that's the indeed the logical way of reasoning it through.
>> Yes. In fact, that's why I preface what I pose to you by stating that there may well be from the doctor's perspective a plausible explanation for yes him having done it the way he did.
Yes, >> thank you.
>> I have not had the benefit of uh speaking to the doctor and asking him for a explanation an explanation.
>> Judge President, then 178 appears to be the ex the exact same certificate as 173. It's therefore a duplication rather than a further certificate.
>> Yes, that's correct.
I will then leave 178 because it's a duplication of 173.
So judge President if you look at 20 the 2021 period which we have dealt with it appears to be a continued pattern established after 20 namely repeated certificates from Dr. But relating to the advanced diabetic eye disease and legal blindness >> is starting to be noted.
>> Yes.
>> Then I'd like to take you to 2022 179. It's page 179.
>> Yes.
>> On the face of it 179, it appears that Dr. Mala recorded that he examined Judge Nali on the 14th of March 2022.
According to the certificate is unfit for work/ school from the 4th of March 2022 until the 21st of June 2022.
>> Yes. 14th of March. Not 4th. 14th.
>> My apologies. The 14th of March.
>> Yes.
>> Until the 21st.
And the nature recorded there is also a illness advanced diabetic retinopathy.
>> Yes.
>> I I see that the time is now 5 12.
I propose to take a comfort break uh for 10 minutes then we can resume at quart 12.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. You may continue. Advocate bl.
>> Thank you, President.
Judge President Mosi, before the comfort break, we stopped at 179.
>> Yes.
>> I'll now move to 180.
>> Yes.
If you look at 180 also the the certificate from the same doctor it's once again that he was examined he's uh Dr. Lali was booked off until the 20th of June 2022 but he was examined by the same doctor on the 30th of May 2022 if you look at 180.
>> Yes.
So before the expiration of of of 179 again.
>> Yes.
And if you look at 180, the same doctor um says that he examined him on the 30th of May 2022 that he's unfit for work/ school from the 30th of May 2022 but and extends it until the 30th of September 2022 and it may resume on the 1st of October 2022.
>> That is correct.
And then the nature of the illness/operation injury appears to be recorded as qescent proliferative diabetic retinopathy.
>> Yes.
>> Although the handwriting is a bit unclear.
Yes.
>> Can I just before you continue I see the date stamp is the 27th of May 2022 whereas the examination was on the 30th of May.
>> That is correct. 2022.
>> That is correct.
>> So as in the instant with the other certificate, the date stamp does not correspond with a date of examination.
>> Precisely.
My apologies if I may just be afforded an opportunity. My laptop just went down. I just have to restart.
Thank you, chair.
If we can move to 181, which is still in the 2022 period.
The same doctor states that he examined Judge Lali on the 6th of September 2022 and that is unfit for work/ school from the 6th of September 2022 until the 20th of December 2022 and may resume work on the 21st of December 2022.
>> That is correct.
>> And then it's recorded illness or blindness. The the handwriting is a bit unclear. Diabetic retinopathy.
>> Correct.
>> Handwriting appears is unclear, but it seems to be that way. If you look at the previous diagnosis, >> that is correct.
Then if you move to 182 once again before the expiration of 181 the same doctor examines Dr. Lali on the 28th of November 2022 and is booked off until the 30th of March sorry 31st of March 2024 and may resume on the 1st of April.
>> That's correct.
Then 183 a few days after being examined on the sorry >> my apologies one we already >> we dealt with it as already discussed before it's a it's a duplicate certification. Yes.
>> So, judge President with reference to the certificates in 2022, it appears that the related condition recorded in 2021 continued during 2022.
>> That's correct. Yes.
>> And that Dr. repeatedly recorded diabetic retnipathy related diagnosis and the booking of periods appear to have been extended from March 2022 until March 2023.
Yes.
>> Was a few of the certificates or the some of the certificates being issued before the expir expiry of the preceding certificate.
>> Yes.
>> Then let's move to 2023. It seems that he was examined by the same doctor again. If you look at 184 >> Yes.
on the 24th of February, 2023 and is booked off until 30 June 2023 and may resume 1 June 2023.
>> 1 July, >> sorry, 1 July 2023.
>> Correct.
Okay. And again the doctor says advanced PDR and then says legal blindness.
>> Legal blindness is diagnosed once again.
>> Yes.
>> Then 185 he sees him Dr. Le car I'm sorry, Judge Le on the 30th of May, 2023 again, but this time he books him off until the 30th of September 2023.
>> Yes.
>> So, a month before the expiration of 184.
>> Yes, exactly. A month. Yeah. In in terms of term and recess, could you just look at the dates if there's any significance or >> Well, 184 the 1st of July 2023 would be in recess.
uh the date on which the doctor certified that he may resume duty on and uh likewise the on 185 the 1st of October 2023 would be in recess.
>> So in both instances resume work during recess. during recesses.
If we look at 186, >> yes, >> he's examined on the 1st of Judge Li is examined on the 1st of September, 2023.
Again, according to um the doctor's knowledge or as he was informed, the judge appears to be unfit from the 1st of September 2023 and once again till the 31st of December 2023 and may resume work on the 1st of January 2024, New Year's Day.
>> That is correct.
And then at the nature of the illness/operation and injury at 186 appears to be recorded as a illness PDR with a very poor vision.
>> That is correct. Uh just uh to note that at 185 again uh the doctor certified that he may resume duty on the 1st of October 2023 but uh then examined him on the 1st of September 2023 uh and then booked him off until the 1st of January New Year's Day the next year.
So, judge President, if you look at in summary, if you look at the 2023 certificates, it continues with the same pattern of ongoing eye related illnesses which renders him unfit.
Judge Lali unfit to resume work.
>> Yes, correct.
>> And then if you look at the certificates of 2023, Dr. records advanced PDR, legal blindness, poor vision and that's the stage very poor vision.
>> Yes.
>> And then the periods was throughout 2023 into March 2024.
>> Correct.
I'd like you to move to 20 the remainder of 2024 page 188 of the bundle.
>> Yes.
E judge is examined. If you look at 188 by the same doctor on the 16th of March 2024.
>> Yes.
>> And then he's booked off from the 16th of March 2024 until the 30th of June 2024. Also the 30th of June.
>> Correct.
>> And may resume work on the 1st of July 2024.
>> Correct.
Then the nature of the illness/operation injury appears to be recorded as extensive PDR cuescent.
>> Yes.
>> Although it's and then in this instance if I look at 188 I I do note there's now something written by the review date.
>> Yes. It's not clear to to when I don't know it said I need and I could not make up the last one. I initially thought it arises but doesn't seem to be that >> yes the the handwriting is unclear but we can see by review day stand when pos and need >> yes then 189 once again the same doctor examines judge on the 1st of July 2024 according to the certificate is unfit for work/pool from the 1st of July until the 30th of September 2024 and may resume on the 1st of October 2024.
>> Correct.
The nature of the illness or SLO operation SL injury appears once again advanced PDRIC illnesses but nothing is noted by the review date.
>> No.
>> Now judge President if we move to 190.
190 appears not to be the same form as the preceding medical certificates.
Would you agree?
>> I agree.
>> It appears to be a medical report by Dr. Mola dated 5 July 2024.
>> That is correct.
>> And it relates to if you look at the report um Mr. Leorny Joshua Lali and there's uh his identity number that of Judge Lali.
>> Yes.
For the sake of accuracy and without correcting the language used in the report, I will read the relevant portion as it appears.
Can just have a look at it and see whether or not you agree with me.
Mr. Lali has been on my care since 29 March 2019 with advanced proliferative diabetic retin retinopathy in both eyes.
He was done cataract operation and postpl tractional retinal detachment with advanced disease. His condition is now in stage.
He is hand movement vision and permanent legal blindness.
>> That is correct. That's how I understand with the doctor the medical >> some of the words. Yeah. I could not make out but yeah.
>> So that is then the medical report that was submitted to you um by judge Lali from the doctor Dr. Mcmala.
>> That is correct.
>> The opthalmologist.
>> Yes.
191 appears to be again a normal medical certificate from Dr. Mala the same doctor.
>> Yes.
He examined according to the document appears on judge Kali on the 1st of October 2024 and according to the certificate he was unfit for work/ school from the 1st of October 2024 once again until the 31st of December 2024 and he may resume duty on the 1st of January 2025 New Year's Day 2025.
>> That is correct.
>> The nature of the illness/operation injury appears to be recorded as advanced cusent pdr with legal blindness.
>> Yes.
>> Now, judge president, please correct me if I'm wrong. the 2024 certificates if you have a look at it, it continues with the same related pattern seen in the preceding years.
>> Yes. Uh I think what is maybe significant about them they move from extensive PDR to advanced but what the doctor says it is quietened. In other words, the condition is dominant.
Uh there's no movement.
So the there's no movement in the blindness the state of the blindness >> is is that why it is stated that it's permanent.
>> Well in the in the previous one at 190 the doctor says and permanent legal blindness and later on 191 he again uses advanced quiet PDR. So it's advanced.
There's no movement. Still permanently blind.
That's how I understand it.
>> The medical report at page 180 further records endstage disease also in addition to the >> legal blindness and the permanentness they are.
>> Yes, they they also used the word endstage.
Now judge President in regard to the medical certificates dealt with thus far what observation if any can you make regarding the timing the duration and the sequence of the certificates?
Well, when it comes to the timing and the sequence, it's as I said uh previously, it's basically the same uh that just gala would be able to resume duties in the recess. Uh firstly, and the condition of his blindness has not changed.
Then to move to 2025 read page 192 according to the certificate presented to you or presented by Dr. I'm sorry Judge Lari he was examined on the 2nd of January 2025. Although the date stamp we can't make that up. Yes.
>> And he was unfit fit for work/ school from the 2nd of January 2025 to the 31st of March and may resume on the 1st of April.
>> Yes.
>> And then the the it's noted advanced PDR with blindless. Does it just say blindness not legally blind in this?
>> Yeah, that's correct. It's not qualified with legal. It's just blindness.
>> Advanced PDR with blindness.
>> Yes.
>> The next certificate 193 is ex appears to appears to be examined on the 31st of March 2025.
booked off till the 30th of June 2025 may resume on the 1st of July 2025.
Here it's noted advanced PDR but legal blindness.
>> Yes.
Then to move to 194 before the expiration of the previous certificate, it appears that Judge Ricardi was examined on the 24th of June 2019, sorry, 2025 by the same doctor.
>> Yes.
>> And then booked off from the 24th of June to the 30th of September 2025 may resume on the 1st of October 2025. Correct.
>> Then the nature of the illness oper/operation injury appears to be advanced proliferative diabetic metinopathy followed by two words in brackets. The first appears to start with a B, but the words in brackets are unclear.
>> Yeah, that's correct. I could not make out what that stands for, but uh it's advanced PDR in any event, which the doctors already uh termed blindness or legal blindness.
>> And here it says he may resume on the 1st of October 2025.
>> Correct.
Now if you look at 195 >> Yes.
>> the certificate appears to be different in form from the earlier certificate although it was issued by the same doctor Dr. Malo.
>> Yes.
>> It appears to be on the letter head of Lolita Pain Clinic and Laser Center.
>> Correct.
And here also before the expiration of previous certificate, judge Li appears to be examined on the 22nd of September 2025.
>> Yes.
and once again as in the preceding years booked off until the 31st of December 2025 and will be fit for duty on New Year's Day 2026 during the recess period.
>> That's correct.
And the nature of the illness for the operation/injury appears to be recorded as a illness advanced PDR and in brackets blindness.
>> Correct.
If you look at 196 >> Mhm.
>> it's now not on the same letter head anymore, but it's also by the same doctor, Dr. B.
He is seen on the 6th of December.
>> No, no, the 2nd of December.
>> 2nd of December.
>> Yes. 2025 even though he's booked off until the 31st of December.
>> Correct.
>> And here the doctor states or books him off from the 2nd of December 2025 until the 31st of March 2026 and states he may resume on the 1st of April 2026.
>> That is correct.
Certificate states if you look at 196 the nature of the illness/operation slash injury is advanced proliferative diabetic retinopathy cohesent p >> yes >> in brackets.
Yes, >> Judge President. If I look at the if I look at the medical certificates, um, am I correct in stating that the certificates do note any material improvement from the end stage that was recorded in the 2024 medical report?
>> No, it does not. But what it expressly says is it is quiet PDR. In other words, stable. There's no improvement with the blindness or the legal blindness as stated.
>> Yes.
And for that period, the booking of period is continuously from the 2nd of December 2025 to the 31st of December 2025 with the return date of the 1st January 2026 just like in the other periods.
>> Yeah.
Now the last year is the 2026 year.
>> We still were the same doctor. Nothing has changed.
>> Yes.
>> 197. Once again, there's a medical certificate.
>> Yes.
>> From Dr. Mala who notes that he examined Judge Lali on the 30th of March, 2026.
>> Yes. and that according to his knowledge slash as informed he's unfit for work/ school from the 30th of March 2026 to the 30th of June 2026 and he may resume on the 1st of July 2026 >> correct >> an advanced proliferative kiss and diabetic the nopathy is Yes.
>> Then one night eight before the last certificate expired.
Once again we have the same doctor who now states that judge Lali and with a given ID number was examined by him on the 21st of June >> Mhm. 2026 and according to his knowledge slash as informed is unfit for work/ school from the 21st of June 2026 to the 30th of September 2026 and may resume on the 1st of October 2026.
>> That is correct.
>> And if you look at 198 the last certificate that presides is this the last certificate that was? Yes, it is it is valid until the 1st of October this year.
>> Yes, there is also now a review date there in that certificate unlike the one >> the 30th of September 26.
>> There's now a review date of the 30th of September.
>> Yes.
Which is similar to the one on 188 in 2024.
>> Similar in what sense?
>> That there's something now written by the reviewer. Oh yes, >> judge president. Were these and I took you through the medical certificate and the one report. I just want to confirm with you whether these were all the medical certificates or in documentation received >> according to my records. Yes.
Were any medical reports received from any medical practitioner indicating any progress or improvement on his condition?
>> None.
Now, Judge President, I'd like to move um away from the the certificates. We have already dealt with that.
>> Yes.
>> Judge Kakali has had the opportunity to respond to your complaint.
>> Yes.
>> Dated 31st of January 2025.
>> Yes. In the bundle, his response is marked G and it appears ages 44 to 50 dated 9 April 2025.
>> Yes.
>> I just want to state if I may just first get one.
It's G page 44 >> to 40 the 50 is in the form of an affidavit David affidavit dated 9 >> correct >> of April 2025.
If you look at paragraph in his response, he states that many of the allegations in your affidavit are not in dispute. Especially if you look at paragraphs, 2.1 that is that seems to be the case.
>> That has consistently been judge's attitude that he does not dispute the medical evidence and also the averance made in my complaint.
Now if you look at the the affidavit Dave did 9 April 2025. If you look at paragraphs 6 7 8 and 9.
>> Yes. It appears that uh judge Lali states to some extent that he consulted a traditional healer from outside of the country and he was advised by the traditional healer that he would not or he advised the traditional healer he would not be able to perform his work and might have to resign. and the traditional healer um advised him not to invite the wroth of the ancestors by resigning. Uh yes, maybe if I may paraphrase which is also uh consistent with just Mal's case is that he consulted two traditional healers and was told that he should not resign or retire or apply to be medically boarded as that would invite the wrath of the ancestors.
And that if he does any of those three steps, his blindness would be permanent.
And uh the one or the second opinion was that his uh road to sight will be totally closed should he do one of those things.
But am I correct if you look at the medical certificate he's already been diagnosed as?
>> Well, well, maybe we must uh then draw the distinction between the medical certificates that we have from a quote unquote western educated opthalmologist and eye specialist as opposed to a traditional healer. the education and level which is at this stage unknown.
And what Judge Dal says is regardless of what the opthalmologist is saying, the traditional healer whom he who whom he accepts as the the person with the correct opinion says that he should not go and voluntarily apply to be released from active service. due to incapacity otherwise he will never regain his sight. That is his case.
>> Well, that is his belief.
>> That is his belief and that is also what he conveyed to me.
>> If you look at paragraph 8, um you have mentioned that there was more than one. It's also evident from paragraph 8. Judge Lii also refers to seeking a second opinion from a traditional healer.
But if you look at paragraph nine, >> Mhm.
>> it states towards the end, she was however unable to confirm the issue of what would happen to me should I opt to apply to be medically boarded.
>> Yes, but she uh partially confirmed what the first one said that he would regain his sight. I think that is the point that just is making.
But my reading of paragraph six of the six answering affidavit the the way I read it is that he would only incur the w of the ancestors if he were to resign. Yes, that is what is stated in paragraph six. But in my discussions with Judge Lali, he intimated that resignation uh retiring or uh being medically boarded to use the colloquial term would invite the wrath of their ancestors according to the traditional healer.
>> Thank you.
Did Judge Lali provide you with anything from a purported traditional?
>> No, nothing.
>> It's just the the mere say so of judge which I accepted as my colleague >> 9 paragraph 10 response.
>> Sorry to interrupt you close. Don't traditional healers in the ordinary course communicate their diagnosis to their clients simply by word of mouth.
Uh not necessarily uh president maybe as a generalization. Yes. But there are also traditional uh healers who indeed write medical certificates.
We've had many of those kind of cases in the labor court. There is for an example a a case where a worker was dismissed because the employer did not accept the medical certificate coming from the traditional.
>> Thank you judge question.
>> Thank you Jud. Thank you, Judge President. Yes.
>> I see. Although we are talking he's referring to the traditional healers what his belief was in what they were indicating to him. But did you at any stage perhaps try to reconcile that with what uh the medical doctors had said before that I mean he had a problem of diabetes malitus.
Look, >> and then he later on had to have a below the knee amputation of the right leg and had a problematic left leg as well due to diabetes and hence they call it PDR diabetic uh retinopathy.
Look, it is irreconcilable.
Uh on the one hand you have an actual diagnosis by a specialist in the field.
On the other hand you have what he was told and what he verely believes to be true. What he was told by a traditional healer. They are totally irreconcilable.
>> But it's a question of belief. People have many strange beliefs sometimes.
even people who are highly religious. So >> yes, >> that that is the situation. It is his subjective belief. Uh and it's objectively it might be absurd but it is his objective subjective belief.
>> Yes. But we the medical certificates were finished to you and they say he had that diabetic induced retinopathy.
>> I agree. That's why I say >> loss of sight.
>> Yes. That's why I say it's irreconcilable.
The one is based on belief, the other on actual diagnosis by an expert.
>> Well, thank you.
>> Thank you. He even though himself may maybe one could say that he's is or was in a case 22 situation faced with medical evidence which he accepts and the advice that he got from the traditional healers in the face of the medical evidence because of his belief. if he chose to accept what the traditional healers precisely told him that fearing as he said you know the wroth of the ancestors if he were to act otherwise that's it that is precisely his case it has always been that >> but it is clear from the medical certificates that his sight deteriorated the whole time since 2019 19 >> correct but that's why I say on the actual diagnosis by the eye specialist there is no indication that there is hope for him to see again in future but based on what he believes in and what the traditional healer told him that actually gave him the hope and belief that he might see anytime soon. As he puts it, I will even be able to see the next day >> despite his deteriorating eyesight.
>> That's that's it. Yes.
>> Church president. If you look at paragraph 10, it appears that Judge Lei appreciates that the situation cannot remain in limbo in limbo, sorry, indefinitely. However, he states that because he is procluded from applying for rel release release on medical grounds, the commission may on its own accord recommend his temporary release on medical grounds pending his recovery.
Now with this paragraph in mind, Judge President, apart from Judge Dali's belief, subjective belief concerning the traditional healer, is there anything that precludes him from applying for being released on medical ground?
>> Uh, as far as I know, the state of the law currently is as follows. that a judge may be released from active service based on misconduct, gross misconduct, uh gross uh incompetence or incapacity.
Now for that to happen, it is for the president of the country to relieve somebody from active service and thereafter you you cannot then say my position was a temporary one or hold my release from active service in limbo until such time that I see again. It is unfortunately, it seems to me, a final act. When the president signs that you are now relieved from active service, you are relieved from active service.
>> So if I understand correctly, um it can be on his own accord or in terms of section 177 of the constitution.
>> Yes. Uh yeah, that is basically the the situation. But section 177 governs the three eventualities that can lead to the release of a judge from actual service.
Also, >> judge, you judge President, you touched basically on it, but I just want to specifically ask you, do any of the judicial regulatory instruments make provision for temporary release on medical grounds?
>> Not that I am aware of.
It seems >> so in so far as you are concerned if you are discharged by the president in terms of the consecution then that's that's the end of it. That's the end of it my understanding because then the judges uh remuneration and conditions of service act kicks in and all your benefits are determined in terms of that as as well as whether you may be recalled to do active service and in terms of that act you may not be recalled to do any service if you were uh discharged based on incapacity.
That much is clear from that.
But if you retire, yes, especially if you retire at the retirement age of 70, you may be recalled. If if you have retired at the age of 75 or you have reached the age of 75, any other additional service is voluntarily. You can't be compelled. But you you may not be recalled at all if you have uh been discharged for incapacity.
Yes, >> that only leaves a theor theoretical possibility. I put it no higher than that if age is still on our side, you know, one could apply where there's a vacancy for reappointment, so to speak.
>> Well, well, there's a difference between reappointment because reappoint you go through the whole process. There must be a vacancy. You must apply. you must be shortlisted and interviewed. But what what is envisaged here is the question of hold it >> for now and then when I'm ready to come back I should just come back in my post but by that time there will not be a post in the free state because we shall have advertised and filled the post.
>> Yes. Thank you, Judge President.
>> Judge President, if you look at page 47 of the bundle, paragraph 141, and I think you touched on it earlier in your testimony where Judge Lali says he denies the heart operation, but I think you clarified that. Am I correct?
>> Yes. Uh uh as I said I I spoke to judge Lala whilst he was in hospital in uh Pritoria and he told me that he's there to undergo a procedure and uh you know these days uh surgery and procedure is used synonymously. So unfortunately that uh on my part to say surgery was incorrect. Yes.
>> But it was according to paragraph 14.1 his own version is he was admitted.
>> No it was definitely in the hospital. I spoke to him. this. He does not deny that. I spoke to him whilst he was in the heart at the heart hospital in Pritoria.
>> Then paragraph 181 page 49 of the bundle.
>> Yes.
Judge Li mentions that he asked one of his colleagues to approach school for the blind and deaf about the possibility of learning Braille.
He says that from his contact with the school it became clear to him that Braille would not assist him because of his advanced age. Um do you have any comment on that Trust President?
>> No, I think it will just be an opinion.
So I'd rather refrain from it because what just is saying is what actually happened. I have no personal knowledge of it and the opinion would have just been that uh one is probably never too old to learn. Yeah.
>> But according to his paragraph 181 that Brail not would not assist him because of his advanced age. That is what he says. Yes.
Then judge President, am I correct that article five of the code of judicial conduct adopted in section 12 of the JC Act 1994 deals with judges and acting honorably.
If you look at article five, it might just be an opportunity to get Article five to act honorably and it has various notes also added to the article.
>> Yes.
>> Of how judges should behave.
>> Yes.
>> Page 304 of the judicial regulatory instrument second edition.
Thank you.
>> For instance, it says under the notes, note five, Roman 3, a judge does not engage in conduct that is prejuditial to the effective and expedition administration of the business of the court.
>> Yes.
Now, Judge President, having regard to Judge Lali's prolonged absence in the circumstances and facts you have mentioned before the tribunal, uh can you comment whether or not his conduct was prejuditial to the effective and expedition administration of the business of the court?
>> Well, uh clearly as I've stated earlier, it impedes proper planning.
uh the the court cannot function optimally without a permanent one one of its permanent members and uh that will obviously hinder the effective uh service delivery and expeditious uh administration of the business of the court.
But uh yeah the situation is that it was due to ill health.
>> Then the same article 5 note Roman 1 says the judge behaves in years of professional and private life in a manner that enhances public trust in our respect for the judiciary and the judicial system.
Now judge President having regard to the circumstances and the facts you have mentioned before placed before the strike reunion can you comment as to whether or not judge Dali's conduct was consistent with the behavior that enhances public trust in or respect for the judiciary and the judicial system. Well, you will note in uh Roman 4 thereof note uh five Roman 4 that the test is an objective one and uh it is to be judged through the prism or the eyes of a reasonable person. Now obviously the question arises what would an ordinary member of the public a reasonable person who is aware of the facts in this matter say that a judge is on sick leave for 8 years and is being paid for those 8 years and a second judge is paid uh for the duration of the time except for the recesses of course a similar a salary similar to that the that the judge receives. So it might obviously uh have an impact on the levels of public trust in the judiciary and respect for the judiciary objectively speaking what I think about it is irrelevant.
>> Judge President should sorry to interrupt. Shouldn't that be considered against the backdrop that even if he were to apply to be medical boarded, he would be and the application is successful, he would be entitled to a salar to part of his salary.
If if a judge >> but he would lose other benefits for example >> precisely >> like a motor vehicle and so forth.
>> Yes. But this the salary component is less than what a judge ordinarily receives on retirement firstly and uh secondly and more importantly I think it is the duration uh of the delay. It's an it's an 8-year period. That is a inordinately long inordin long period. And people out there when they hear that this is what actually happened and these are the facts might have that perception because it's optics. It's all a matter of optics.
Like you said in article 5 Roman 4, it's to be assessed objectively through the eyes of the reasonable person.
>> Yes. It's not for me to assess it. The tribunal must assess it from the prism of a reasonable person.
Judge President, while you discussing or while you you raise financial implications, I want you to take you to page 31 of the bundle.
That's an annexure to your complaint that you lodged or that's dated the 31st of January, 2025.
Page 31 appears to be a spreadsheet.
>> This >> Oh, yes. Yeah.
>> Could you take us through the spreadsheet attached to your complaint what it means? And >> well as the president intimated earlier that a judge who is on retirement loses uh is not entitled to certain benefits.
But what what has uh actually happened in this particular case? Uh I just indicate the financial implications total financial implications uh including the car. What happens is a a judge pays the tax on a motor vehicle. The motor vehicle is availed uh to the judge for official as well as private use. The judge does not pay for petrol uh services or oil for that matter. It is paid for by the state.
Uh likewise toll fees.
Now if uh as in this case maybe let me take you through the grid the spreadsheet you'll see under kilometers traveled there's 3,716 uh in January 2024. That is the total amount for the month that Judge Lal uh used the vehicle.
Uh the normal cost per month is what the state pays 15,48919.
Judge Lala also contributes uh to that to and then there's the daily tariff that we pay because uh the the cars are sourced from Chief Fleet which is a entity of the Haeng provincial government or from the Western Cape uh which is also an entity from of that government. So per month uh they charge a total of 41,157 uh61 cents. So that monthly charge minus the 15,489.19 the difference there is what just pays but uh the total cost to the state well stated as OCJ for the month was 56,864 rand 80 for the entire period January 2024 to December 2024 it came down to 577,486.93.
That's just for that year.
>> So if I understand this table correctly, >> Yes.
>> from January 2024.
>> Mhm.
>> Until December 2024.
>> Mhm.
>> Even though Judge Lali was unfit to resume duty as an active judge. Yes.
>> An amount of 30,954 km was driven on his vehicle. Yes, that is what was actually trouble with the vehicle >> and for the period the same period whilst he was unfit besides his salary for the January 2024 until December 2024 um besides his salary there was an additional cost to the state of 577,486.
Yes, just for the for the year.
>> Does he still receive those benefits in addition salary?
>> Yes, he receives it. Uh obviously the there would be variables because he would not be driving the same kilometers uh every month and that that amount might be more or it might be less but uh we I can get that from my office.
And I note for every month for the year 2024.
>> Mhm.
>> There were tollgate fees.
>> Yes.
>> So all said and done uh judge President Mosi for the year 2024 it cost the government a little over half a million.
>> Yes.
uh for for the vehicle which was used by judge legal during that year.
Correct. And the government derived no benefit correct for that cost. Correct.
>> Thank you.
and judge President that would be the same position for 2025 as well as to date 2026.
>> Well, it would be the same from 2018 from the first time that Judge Lalio went on sleeve. He he had the car well cars because he actually changed cars in the period as well. So he had he had the cars at his disposal and he would drive the cars and the the state would put the bill for the petrol maintenance tolls and things like that. Yeah.
>> Without performing work as an act of judgment.
>> Oh without any that's correct as the president already indicated.
>> Just with regard to that did he receive uh did he get a new car in that period?
>> Yes.
uh under correction by an E-class Mercedes-Benz as well as a GLC Mercedes-Benz. Currently, it's a GLC Mercedes-Benz that he's driving.
>> So, in spite of the fact that he performed no work for the government, he got a new government car after 4 years.
>> Precisely.
>> Thank you.
And that would have been in terms of the prevailing uh regulations uh correct >> pertaining to judges motor vehicles.
>> Correct. Because he remains a judge.
Yes.
>> Although he's on sick leave. Yes.
Which then means that for as long as there is no recon uh you know for as long as there is no finalization or for as long as this matter continues or state of affairs continues the the government will continue to bear costs such as these and other related costs. Correct.
Thank you.
>> So, it will it will continue unless something is done.
>> In terms of >> I suppose that is why we're here. Yes.
>> Judge President, is there anything you'd wish to add before I conclude?
>> No, thank you. Not at this stage.
President that will be over from >> Thank you uh advocate close.
The time is now 25 to 1.
We'll we will take the lunch agendment at this stage and when we resume then I will uh give uh judge legal the opportunity to ask any questions that he might uh desire to pose to Judge President Mosi.
Um just bear with me for a moment.
Okay.
So, we'll resume at quarter pass 2.
Thank you. Shall we agend Judge, it is now your opportunity to put whatever questions you might have to Judge President Mosen.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
JP Mi, if I were to recover and go back to work, would you accept me?
>> Yes.
But judge Mus you never saw visited me at hospital or anywhere ever since I fell ill.
That is correct. But I called you practic practically every week in the beginning and uh in the later stages not as frequently but I called you uh and always inquired about your health.
Uh you were there and most of the times in in walcom I was in Bloom Fontaine distance between the two places about 170 kilometers. But yeah uh I made it a point uh that at least once a week I would contact your teenage or as I affectionately call you and most of us how are you are you okay? Yes. Uh the stump is healing. Uh and then later on yeah my my my sight is still bad but uh I trust that I will see again. Yes.
That's JP.
Is good that you say you would have me back if I were to recover.
Uh Judge Judge Lal my my view has always been that you are a good judge.
uh you know whilst you were still at the division I would actually compliment you on your work and when we sat on appeals uh you you wrote good judgments and uh when you commented on my judgments it was always sensible uh advice that I took.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. I do not have any further questions to the JP.
>> Thank you, Judge.
Advocate Bros., Do you want to exercise your right to re-examine judge President Mosi?
>> There's no re-examination.
>> Thank you, >> Judge. President Mosi, we have come to the end of your testimony and we have reached a point where unless or even if you were to indicate otherwise that we must now excuse you at this stage. Thank you very much for taking time to assist the tribunal. After all, you are the complainant.
Uh so you are excused.
>> Thank you. Thank you, President. And thank you, members of the tribunal.
Advocate that will be all evidence from the complainant side.
>> Thank you.
Judge Legal, the we have now concluded the evidence uh that the evidence leader wished to present to the tribunal.
Um, might I inquire from you if you will be presenting evidence on your behalf and if so, whether you are ready to do so this afternoon still or whether you will seek an indulgence perhaps to get your ducks on the ro so to speak and present your evidence later. Uh if you could uh let us know what your position is.
Yes, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much. I will request an opportunity to do so to get my D in a row so as to be able to present my case proper.
I did not expect to present my case today. Really >> are you in effect then asking that the proceedings be agenda at this stage to tomorrow morning for continuation?
>> Indeed, Mr. Chair. Indeed.
>> Thank you.
Advocate blows.
Are you meanable to Judge Legal being afforded an opportunity to prepare for his uh testimony and that the matter be agenda at this stage to tomorrow morning?
No objection from my side that the matter be adjourned until tomorrow and the judge be afforded the opportunity until tomorrow. President thank you advocate post. Very well. Then at the instance of uh judge leal, these proceedings are at this stage agendation of the hearing.
Thank you.
We'll then adjourn at this stage until tomorrow morning at 10:00. Thank you.
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