On The Brink | Arusyak Abrahamyan | Episode #552

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:05][music] Hello, I am John Brink and we are podcasting on the brink from Canada and in particular central British Columbia.

[00:00:18]Canada and people around the world say, "Oh, okay. We know where Canada is in British Columbia on the west coast."

[00:00:24]Right. Right. That's where it is. And so where are you, John May? And and we know the big city called Vancouver. Beautiful city by the way. We are 500 miles north or for a European friends 800 kilometers north of Vancouver and central British Columbia. North south, east to west. big big territory, big big province. Today we have a very very interesting guest and and bear with me. It is we call her Ary, but her name really is Abrahamson.

[00:01:06]>> Close enough. [laughter] >> Erica, welcome to the show.

[00:01:11]>> Thank you for having me. So [snorts] Arie is a lawyer and she just doesn't practice law but in particular specializes in family law. She has lived inside and most complex highstakes realities a California based family law attorney and seasoned litigator.

[00:01:35]Ary brings more than just a decade of courtroom experience navigating high conflict, high asset divorce cases.

[00:01:45]Money always creates structure and and challenges. Her clients are often entrepreneurs, professionals, and financial sophisticated individuals.

[00:01:56]people is something real real to lose and even more at stake emotionally. From intricate business valuations to continuous custody battles and multi-layer other things, asset disputes.

[00:02:13]Harry, welcome to the show.

[00:02:18]>> So, tell us about your background. I believe you're located in California. I believe in particular San Francisco and yes tell us about you as to how did it all start where did you get your education and what brought you into law and then particular as people may know and that's pretty much the way it is around the world in law there are a number of specialties family law is the interesting one we'll be talking about today so how did it bring you to family law of emotions obviously in all law cases but in this one in particular. So start from the beginning >> from the beginning. So I moved to the US particularly San Francisco when I was 21 years old. Um my first law degree was from u Russian university in um in Moscow you go straight to law school versus in America you do undergrad and then grad school. So then I went to UC Berkeley. Um you might have heard it's um a very good school. It's a top public school and I, you know, love the community to death. It's a really great school.

[00:03:30]>> Um I was not set out to become a family lawyer. When I was in law school, I thought I would be an intellectual property lawyer. Um after graduation and passing the bar um I was working for a startup and I did a a minute of contract work for a family lawyer. I was supposed to go in as a second chair. I did one case and realized very quickly that litigation is a lot more fun than transactional law. Um and then I worked for the same lawyer for about a year and then I opened my practice right after that. Um the big difference between transactional law and litigation is that you go to court and you learn very quickly um how important your knowledge is and you get tested on your knowledge versus in transactional law unless you get sued at some point nothing really happens. So I started my practice over a decade ago and since I've been a litigator.

[00:04:36]interesting litigation versus transactional law. As you indicated, I've been in business for quite a while.

[00:04:44]Uh, let me just go back to where you started from. You were born in Russia.

[00:04:50]>> I was born in Armenia. I'm Armenian.

[00:04:53]>> Armenian is the location and that is eastern southoutheastern Russia as I call. I was born in Holland so I know a little bit about uh I've not been in Russia but I basically know a little bit about it. So Armenia is an independent republic.

[00:05:14]>> Correct.

[00:05:14]>> And it's under the umbrella of the Russian federal.

[00:05:20]>> It's not.

[00:05:20]>> It is not. It's independent.

[00:05:22]>> So it was it used to be a part of Soviet Union >> up to 1989 >> 91.

[00:05:29]>> 91. Okay.

[00:05:30]>> 1991 and it has been independent since.

[00:05:33]Um I was born and raised in Armenia.

[00:05:36]>> Okay.

[00:05:36]>> I'm Armenian. Um I speak Russian. I did um I I went to law school, but um and I don't practice in Russian anymore. This was 20 years ago.

[00:05:47]>> Yeah.

[00:05:47]>> Um but I I'm [clears throat] Armenian.

[00:05:50]Um and then I moved here when I was 21.

[00:05:53]So that was about 20 years ago. So >> So Arie, so you got educated in Moscow, Russia, and your education was in UN. It was just overall overall law school. So there they call it civil law which has an umbrella of everything else that is not criminal law or international law.

[00:06:18]>> So >> versus in America we get specialized more narrowly. So you know >> what you're doing after law school. You know we all pass the bar but you pick a narrower specialization unless you're a generalist which is not that common.

[00:06:34]>> Yeah. So that what happens here. Correct me if I'm wrong. You you get your law degree. Then from there on then you work usually in a law firm for a number of years to kind of get the feel of uh what it is civil or uh is it uh litigating or whatever you do in your practice for a number of years then hopefully become recognized as established or your official law degree becomes then effective and then at some point maybe you become a partner in a firm or as it sounds to me, you start your own practice and become your own firm.

[00:07:17]>> Am I close?

[00:07:19]>> Very close.

[00:07:20]>> How close is uh you know the but it's always interesting to me is that uh with all due respect uh I'm a little bit older than you. No, quite a bit older than you actually is I was born in 1940.

[00:07:31]So I'm going to be 86 this year. I call it 86 years young. And so I was born in Holland in northeastern Holland in 19 November the 1st 1940. And [snorts] during the difficult difficult time obviously as we all know uh yesterday was a very very important day for me.

[00:07:49]Today is May the 6th. We celebrated May the 5th as the liberation day of Holland being liberated by the Canadian Army and it's a national holiday and I we celebrate it not only in Holland but also in Canada [snorts] and I was here I'm sitting close to city hall here in the city that we are and I was there they raised the Dutch flag and and to remember all those that gave it all and uh during the war years and and and the war years were devastating to Eastern Europe in particular when the the dictator Adolf Hitler decided to in 1939 that Poland should become part of Russia of uh Germany and from there and then the second world war started [snorts] and uh and then the other part if I look back at it uh you know which we should all remember there is nothing nothing more important than peace and and at least war where some people respectfully may think that if there is a war after the war is off over everything goes back to normal az doesn't and I'm an example of that uh as a 5-year-old we were liberated by the Canadian army [snorts] uh April the 12th 1945 after gone through the hunger winter and had nothing to eat I can still feel uh the the feel of hunger, anxiety, uh still have PTSD and a child. All those things are still part of my life.

[00:09:30]The other part that we should remember is that the second world war 60 million 6 million people died during the second world war and that included Russia and the countries that you are from. Armenia probably was part of that.

[00:09:51]>> So my grandpa my my paternal grandfather died in second world war.

[00:09:57]>> Yes. And [snorts] my my dad was born September 1st, 1939.

[00:10:03]He never met his father. He was very young when he was taken to the war. So we used to celebrate May 9th. And because my grandfather didn't have a grave because, you know, he was he died in war, um we used to celebrate May 9th, the victory day. And it was also kind of day to celebrate my grandfather growing up. um because that's when you know the war ended and I grew up in Armenia so I've I've seen three wars growing up um I was already here the last war that happened in Armenia was in 2020 so war is way more serious than people realize and I'm you know people have very strong opinions about Israel now or Iran and um as a person who grew up in war and understands the consequences I I feel like people don't realize how much it destroys. People look at it as winning or losing war, but it the casualties the consequences are huge on people's lives.

[00:11:05]Someone like you remembering 80 years later >> for generations thereafter and and so and still is very much part of me, >> especially yesterday, the day before yesterday when we remember all those that died. uh 45,000 Canadians died. A million 1.1 million Canadians came to Europe to help and and obviously it was Russia that paid an immense price in terms of uh death and people being killed. And so uh for me it's very very important to from time to time speak about it. I did some podcast about it but I remembered about it and it's for the purposes precisely what you are saying Ary is that I remember it and believe me that it stays with us for generations thereafter and so therefore uh you know war is uh uh last a long long time the results of it that being said let's just bring us back to Armenia and so you then got just schooling in Armenia. Then you want to university in Moscow >> for training in law.

[00:12:24]>> Now the basics of law >> are they similar to what we have here?

[00:12:30]Is is we kind of think tongue and cheek a little bit. I always think Putin makes all the decisions so you don't need a law, you know. No, >> mine was a little different. So yeah, so I started in Armenia because they had a they had a a so it was a Russian university but they had a branch in Armenia, >> right?

[00:12:50]>> Um so the first two years was in Armenia. So um a lot of Russian law at the time when I was in school was slightly different than what they had during Soviet Union because there was I think a lot has changed ever since. This was over 20 years ago. So it was 25 years ago actually. So a lot has changed. I remember you know years later you know talking to attorneys they would say oh they did privacy law in Russia.

[00:13:18]And I was like when I was studying there was no such a thing as privacy law in in Russia. So a lot has changed obviously.

[00:13:25]Um my experience I was very young. I was 16 years old when I was studying the legislation of Russia. So um it was just very academic. I didn't and this was you know early 2000s the politics were different a lot of things were different and >> um so I I don't really have a lot of opinion about the and I didn't practice in Russia so I don't I don't have the experience to talk about it a lot of my experience as an attorney was in the US >> so when you were 21 you came to the United States >> did you come with your family or and you And you went to California right away when you did with the idea of studying or >> No. So I came on a um work and travel visa which is a visa for students was um fourth year student in college. So I still had one more year to go. Um and then I came for the summer. Um and I came to Wisconsin. out of all the places. Um, I came to Wisconsin and my first job in the US was, um, working at a a generators factory um, putting stickers on generators >> just like a day.

[00:14:41]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:42]>> Yeah. It's it is an equivalent of, you know, it was a minimum wage job. Um, I think I was just, you know, >> um, I they didn't have McDonald's or something. It's a program. They bring a lot of students. I think that program still exists. It's called work and travel and it's usually students. The point of it is to study a couple to um work a couple of months and and travel a couple of months and it's kind of how it started and then later on years later I think three years later I went to um law school in California. I moved to California and then I went to law school in California. So it's a it's not a regular path >> to others. I didn't come as a student. I became a student later on. But I find interesting Berkeley is just not everybody can say, "Oh, I'm going to go to Berkeley." No, no. Berkeley is probably one of the top universities and it's expensive. How did you deal with that?

[00:15:34]>> Well, I paid off my student loans maybe six years into the practice. Uh, you know, I borrowed I my education cost about $250,000. So, it's a it's an expensive education. It's one of the greatest schools in the country and in the world. I had the privilege of studying I want to say with 49 different countries in my class. I it was either 49 or 51. I I don't remember but they we had students from all over the world. Um and that was an amazing experience both learning because I I studied civil law before and then American system and Canadian system is common law. So it was very different. Um it it was a great experience. I still live in San Francisco and get involved here and there with the community of uh Berkeley Law. So it it is a great community. It is a great school. I'm I'm very fortunate. So if you which you are say Arie has a law degree from Berkeley means something. Whoa.

[00:16:48]>> I hope so.

[00:16:49]>> Well, that does, you know, no different.

[00:16:51]>> I worked really hard for that. So, I hope something >> at is recognized around the world as a uh you know, the premium level of where you go. So uh in conflict or in comparison my my uh academic performance was not quite like what yours was. I was uh in Holland uh and uh I failed grade three and I failed grade seven three times. So they said what are we going to do with this guy? So my parents were beautiful people. They some people said send him to the mentally challenged school. They said no we're not going to do that. So let's uh you know now kids were always hard on each other. Uh I was not a success story in school and I became usually uh if if we had to do a test the rating was from one being the lowest 10 the highest. Uh if [snorts] they read off in the class the results then they want Peter has an eight and and Ena has a nine and then John as usually has a zero and everybody got a joke out of it then saying that. So, I became a laborer and I'm proud of that today, though. And so, and and so what what do we do with this guy? Well, they my dad had a friend that had a furniture factory and they said, "Maybe suit make at 12 and a half years old, maybe make a furniture maker out of him." So, I went there at 12 and a half years old and uh and and the and worked in the furniture. And then in the evenings, I became a class and became a furniture maker. And then I had a dream.

[00:18:33]We were liberated as I told you earlier.

[00:18:35]That's why today, this week is so important to us because that's the week that our province was liberated by the Canadians. Uh we were liberated on April the 12th, 1945 by the Canadian Army and it made such an impression on me as a 4 and a halfyear-old that I knew I knew from that point forward as I grew up I would go to the land of my heroes, Canada. And I did. And then the second dream that I had is to prove to me, not to anybody else, that I was just as smart as all the other ones, is that I wanted to start with nothing and build a lumber mill. And I did and and a number of other uh companies. And it's not about that uh the success of John, but more the story behind it. And so when I came here, uh I came I flew into Montreal. I had three books, two sets of clothes, and and couldn't speak English, didn't have a job, didn't know a soul. And I want to cross Canada by train. 4 days, five nights. My god, that is a long way.

[00:19:47]Arrived in Vancouver and and I could speak English. So, fortunately, there was a fellow that was could speak was a German background and I could speak a little bit of German. and and I told him I'm going to build a lumber mill. He said go north to Prince George.

[00:20:04]It's where I am today. And and that's where they're building lumber mills.

[00:20:07]That's where all the timber is. And that's what I did. And so I came here off the Greyhound bus and I can still see it two blocks away from here. July 1965.

[00:20:20]I had a suitcase, three books, two sets of clothes. I counted my money at least three times. I had exactly $2547.

[00:20:29]But what I did have attitude, I've always been positive. Still am today. No matter what anybody says, if you're negative, stay away from me. Passion.

[00:20:39]Whatever I do, I give it 125%. Work ethic. I still have that today. I work harder than anybody around me. I usually get up at 5:30. I always make my bed and I always think I'm late. And you know the first thing that I do area when I get outside I say I don't care if there is nobody around me if there is 100 or 200 people around me I say I am in paradise and that's how I look at North America both Canada the United States and Mexico and because for all the reasons that you said I lived on the other side and I believe be the most fortunate man in the world and So from that I started as cleaner man lump pal blah blah blah did all those other things and then from there on in learned to speak the language and did all those other things and then now 60 years later I'm uh fortunate enough to live in North America. I do a lot of business in the United States as well as in Canada and uh I'm uh at peace with myself and uh probably going to Canada was one of the best decisions I made in my life and it changed my world obviously [snorts] and so >> immigrants are a special breed. I I have represented a lot of them. I am one of them. It's they are a special breed. It just is the the strength they are born with is not that common. So I I I've understand your background really well.

[00:22:11]I've represented a lot of immigrants.

[00:22:13]California has a lot of them. But I think it's just I don't know if it's genetically special or just life shapes them to be special, but it's a special.

[00:22:22]You know, somebody said to me to go from where you were born, and you probably the same as I am, and your family is that my family lived within 20 miles of us or 20 kilometers in a circle in the province of Gruningan, northeastern Holland. We spoke dialect. Even if we speak dialect, even high Dutch couldn't understand us. So, I had to learn. I I to speak high Dutch at some point. But so that's where we lived and if you would go from that region and I worked for before I came to Canada for a multinational company lumber importer actually in Amsterdam in that region and then they would say oh my god can you believe it he's going 100 kilomes and we'll never see him again and blah blah blah all of that kind of stuff.

[00:23:16]Obviously going all the way to the other side of the world which a lot of people did after the war years as you know was quite a move to make because then communications is not like what it was today. You send telegrams and some of the first telegrams I sent to my parents is I'm doing well. I found a job and I make $2 an hour and everything is okay and blah blah blah and and so but then from there and then on further obviously but the other point I want to share with you just to make sure you have a little bit more background on me that you may not have is I was here already for uh you know I came in 1965 and then 32 years later I went into a bookstore and I found a book driven to distraction written written by Dr. Edward Hwell, medical doctor, and I don't know why I picked it up and I read the book and it's about ADHD and dyslexia and I said when I saw the book, I looked at the book and I said, "Oh my god, that's me." And I wrote and this is the actual book I picked up. I wrote on a January 1997. I wrote in Dutch. Now I finally know who I am in Dutch because it was a suggestion by some that it was mental disorder maybe of some description. Obviously don't agree with that but uh you know so that's not what it is. Diversity likely but not uh you know so but we know all this stuff but at that point we didn't. So I bought this book that changed my life and and so uh you know and but and that was in 1997. I was 57 years old. It took me five years to find out what it was, what it is all about. Looked at all the information.

[00:25:18]Then I went to my doc that delivered our two daughters was a personal friend and and he said, "Hey, John, why are you here?" I said, "I think I got ADHD." And so we checked it out and I do I call it a superpower actually. So and I speak about it from time to time. But that changed my life in addition to the other elements. And so from that point forward, I became much more active. I became much more involved in communication skills, which I believe is critical. You are very good communicator. that's already obvious and you have to be in your prof profession obviously. The other part about it is I'm an author. Uh I've done six books so far and then obviously active in podcasting and doing a lot of other things. So that brings me to you now is saying your specialty and family law is interesting but can be very emotional because there is so much at play for individuals in particular that may relate to a number of factors.

[00:26:36]what attracts you about that profession or that element of law?

[00:26:45]>> Mhm. Um, you know, interestingly enough, when I talk to my friends who are in other fields, like they're doing transaction law, they're doing tax law or um [clears throat] business law, the most common comment I get is that they would never touch family law because family law is so emotional.

[00:27:03]>> Yeah.

[00:27:04]>> Um, and it is. And it's not for everyone. Um I think there is a lot to be said how difficult the process of divorce is that people don't talk about it. So when someone goes through divorce, it's the worst part of their lives. Um they are vulnerable emotionally, financially, their entire life is on public record. People talk on the record in court about their money, their children, what they did, personal text messages, personal emails. It's it is a very vulnerable place to be. But when someone goes through divorce, it's almost taboo to talk about it. Versus if someone is going through cancer, there's compassion about it. And there's if someone is going through some sort of illness, the community gets together.

[00:27:52]people get, you know, cooked food delivered or if someone loses a loved one to death, there's support coming from community. But if someone loses the loved one to divorce, people are too uncomfortable to talk about it. So it's a very lonely process when people go through divorce and one of very few people who are there for that process.

[00:28:15]Maybe maybe not the therapists and maybe maybe not the the family lawyers. It is I I don't take it lightly that I get to guide people through that process and I get to advise them on legal issues. A lot of financial issues are very relevant. A lot of the cases I do are you know have complicated and complex financials. Um I'm very >> children >> kids custody best interest of someone's children. Um I do a lot of domestic violence cases and you know getting protection for victims of violence and domestic violence is complicated right it's it's um very misunderstood by the society I think crime is so much more um black and white but the same crime like assault battery in a domestic setting is complicated and people have various opinions so it is a very complex profession I'm not just giving legal advice, I'm guiding someone through this process and and that's in that in itself is really difficult and and I have to regularly balance between you know um having compassion but giving very direct answers in making sure I'm doing my job as an attorney. Um you know processes sometimes get delayed and get dragged out. You know attorneys don't get along.

[00:29:45]Um, you also have to have an awareness not to add to the conflict. So, there's already two people who are in divorce court. There's a reason they're there.

[00:29:54]They're already not understanding.

[00:29:55]They're already have hard time communicating with each other. And then you add to it an attorney, two attorneys on both sides disagreeing on legal issues or issues of fact. and then you end up in front of a court judge who has maybe 15 minutes to make a decision that is going to last for years if not a lifetime. These are very complicated issues and it's I take it very seriously because I think there's a lot I can change in people's lives and I do regularly. Uh but it's you know people sometimes compare it to surgeons and not to be too arrogant about it but when a surgeon walks into a surgery there's a team of people supporting them versus when a divorce attorney walks into a courtroom half of that room is against that divorce attorney and there's an arbitrator or a judge or sometimes a mediator. So, it has way more um I get way less support than a doctor would get in a in a surgery. Yet, the issues I deal are just as life-changing as someone's brain surgery.

[00:31:00]>> It's about someone's children, >> if not more, >> if not more.

[00:31:03]>> Yeah.

[00:31:04]>> Yeah. And, you know, I have a 5-year-old, so a lot of times I just kind of like imagine like, what if my kids life schedule was this complicated and complex? So it's very high stake high responsibility profession and things move very fast. You have to be very fast. You know I just finished a trial yesterday. I waited 4 day trial and then you know yesterday we showed up in the morning to get it and I had 15 seconds to argue back for tentatives that the court had given a week ago. So you have to think fast, you have to make decisions fast, you have to look and you have to remove yourself from all the emotions while you are exposed to the emotions of your client. Um, and I have ADHD, so I tend to hyperfocus on issues that I'm very interested in, but there's sometimes issues that I'm not interested in, and I still have to do it because it's it's really hard. Um, but I do I do agree with the the comment about ADG being a superpower.

[00:32:05]ADHD um shows very differently in women than in men. Uh I think it's harder for women to get diagnosed because I wasn't the hyperactive kid who was bouncing off the walls in middle school and elementary school. I didn't get diagnosed until in my 30s. Um and I remember when I told my doctor that I passed the bar and they're like, "Well, you don't have ADHD if you pass the bar.

[00:32:26]It's not >> you wouldn't be able to pass the bar."

[00:32:31]>> Yeah. And and in my background, I think um I was academically very concentrated because my my mom um was a school vice principal and teacher. So academics was very important in my family and you know my dad was also in education. So academics came easily for me and also for girls for women they mask better than than boys do. Somehow there's like an element of shame that controls that concentration part. So >> less so now though in the last 5 10 years it's become more acceptable you know and as you indicated and I love it to have you on my show here is talking about those elements because although I say probably up to 25 30% of the population ADHD worldwide although women >> I think 90% of my clients >> Yeah. Yeah. So >> yeah, and I do represent a lot of successful individuals. They're like very successful in tech, in medicine, in finance. And when I talk to them, I already know >> I know >> 15 minutes in because it's so common because they're really good at one thing, but the most mundane things are so hard for them.

[00:33:47]>> Exactly.

[00:33:47]>> Like I do um you know, I practice law and you know, I can sit and and read on something for eight hours uninterrupted.

[00:33:55]can litigate, you know, nine hours uninterrupted. And then there's like, I don't know, I had to return mail to some, you know, I don't know, a government agency that was like not relevant. And I just sat on it for a month because it was just too mundane of a task to do. And I I've I've learned over the years how hard it is. And the same with my clients, like I asked them to give me a bank statement, and they sit on it for months at a time. Yeah.

[00:34:19]and it's just going online and downloading versus they can give you a very very sophisticated statement about every detail of their finances. Um it's just kind of like how brains work and and it's way more common than people think >> and I like it actually because is and and uh you know it's for me not being successful in spite of it. No, it's successful because of it >> and and so is with my background. But I taught myself over the years from 12 and a half years old to now is I I had this interest in a lot of things in particular what were made people different and successful in different forms to know about that and I've always been like that. I've always been interested still do so on my podcasting >> and in the companies that I do and all the other things and they say to me how do you do all the things you're a speaker you write books and you run 10 companies and you do podcasting I say is ADHD that's how how I do it [laughter] you know so >> yes yes yes I get that question very often how do you do it all and I think it's it's a superpower but you [clears throat] got to learn early on to use those superpowers I think I I one thing that different the difference between successful and not so successful is if you're looking at it as a superpower or a disability. Are you treating it as like I am I have this superpower others can't so I'm going to use it to the fullest or are you going to wake up in the morning and say well I have ADHD I probably will never succeed I shouldn't even try. Yeah, >> the difference is in the attitude.

[00:36:07]>> There is no question about that. And hence attitude, passion, work ethic, what will follow is success and and so and having that interest and doing all those things podcasting. I love the podcasting part about it and that's why I do so much of it and that's why I like it. So let's come back to law is that in especially family law is that it it happens a lot of times relating to issues of money and and then I'm not sure you know the frequency of occurrence is that uh I read something about it is that in Europe in some of the cases uh including Russia Actually, I read something the other day uh you know that up to 50% of people that are in a relationship in marriage separate or divorce at some point.

[00:37:10]>> So there's a lot of argument >> there's a lot of argument about the veracity of the statistics. Um in the US they say more than 50% of marriages end in divorce and um a lot of attorneys or a lot of you know um social researchers question the way the statistics is viewed. Sometimes they just look at that year of marriages versus that year of divorces filed. There's another statistics about like people who get divorced once end up getting divorced second time more often.

[00:37:46]There's a number of statistics. I do know there's a lot of divorces because I have a lot of colleagues in this town and and everybody is very busy. Um I don't know. I always think about it if the divorce rates will change because I think we're seeing a huge um uh movement to having more marriages with premarital agreements than they had before. Um I think the generation I'm a millennial and the generation before me and your generation they didn't believe in um premarital agreements my generation maybe 20% and then this new generation uh Jenzers I'm seeing a lot of Jenzers right now having prenups I think um partially because more women are um earning and and more women understand negotiations than they did before. Um I that's kind of my personal speculation, but also it's like there's more openness to talk about finances. There's less shame around finances than it was before. And it's very interesting. I think it's um when I started doing family law, that was my biggest surprise how money is very important in American culture, yet talking about it is so uncomfortable for people. So some cultures would judge um I read somewhere that the word ambitious used to be a bad word back in the day and then over the years it became a positive adjective. So there's cultural parts of how we treat finances, how we treat the concept of money. We >> What word did you use there? Ambit, what did you say?

[00:39:30]>> Ambitious.

[00:39:32]>> Ambitious.

[00:39:32]>> Ambitious.

[00:39:33]>> Ambitious. Yeah. Okay. Meaning uh what?

[00:39:38]>> Well, you're ambitious. You you want more success and you want so versus before that was more of a a negative uh term because the the entire like idea of being ambitious was not you know um uh appreciated by the society. And I think very similarly um the American the northern American culture is tends to um appreciate money more than a lot of other cultures that I'm I'm familiar with. Um yet talking about it is very uncomfortable for people. So people sometimes tie their net worth their self-worth to their net worth. Um but somehow having conversations, having open conversations about it is a very uncomfortable place. I think that culture is changing more and more. Um I'm seeing a lot of couples, a lot of young couples um having way more open conversations before getting married than before. People would get married and two years in they would realize their spouse has a huge credit card debt and they didn't know about it when they got married. they didn't even ask or they would see I don't know um tax debt or you know certain differences in how people manage their finances. Um so that is changing. So I'm hoping with changes into more premarital agreements there will be less divorces because I also see a lot of divorces happen because people do not agree on how they manage their finances.

[00:41:09]So one of the points that I was going to make which was always important to me I wrote a number of books one of the last ones that I wrote second from the last is this one here billion dollar communication skills it's not about billion dollars but the the reason that those individuals that I reflect on not not a lot in the book is they were successful all the obvious ones think of the six most >> financially successful individuals What made them successful is they must be good communic good communicators brought him there them there and and so either acquired or natural or in some form of fashion that part made them successful and and that's why I wrote the book but not for that purpose alone becoming a billionaire do it if you wish to uh it's it looks a lot better than it is really for a lot of those people. But in any event, the point that I'm making is on communication skills.

[00:42:14]Communication skills are critical in all things that you do. Starting with relationships is to be able to be open to talk about issues that as you relate to from the past, may it be relating to finances.

[00:42:33]May it be relating to other things that are not necessarily comfortable by some that those are a lot of times I believe where relationships whatever they may be at what level in marriage or in any form is to be open and honest about things and expecting the same in return would have changed a lot of the relationships because Once it starts drifting away from trust, understanding and being open on whatever topic, then it may well relate and a relationship breaking up.

[00:43:18]And >> well, it takes two though. You could be you could be all the great communicator you are if the other side is not communicating. And I've done some divorces that you know my client explains the situation and I very quickly realized that if there is ego involved um and a lot of bad communications stem from you know this inflated ego because ego and insecurity they are all very interrelated. Um you can you can be the best communicator but if you made a wrong choice one time wrong choice of marrying someone who is not there's not much you can do about the marriage. It's it's usually a two two person job to keep the marriage successful.

[00:44:01]So what do you see underlying all your experiences and as you go through the relationships is that in a lot of cases for people that go to a breakup and saying they have savings and all those things come to the table and then it can be very very expensive.

[00:44:26]uh you know and and so uh you know so the the wealth or the the the estate is getting uh split four ways between lawyers and the two partners whatever that may be and then uh you know so what would you suggest to people in a general sense to either use and this this doesn't come easy I've gone through counseling with my wife.

[00:44:59]We've been together for about 43 years now. [clears throat] >> And and so and and and so to be >> suggesting that at some point you may need help and assistance in terms of understanding each other or if it drifts into a challenging area.

[00:45:20]What would you suggest from what you have seen >> in your experiences? I think you know people come to us when they have in their mind or in their own perspective have tried it all right so you don't just go straight to a divorce attorney you try most people try couples therapy try some form of communications um or one of them has stepped out already and there's no need or there's no possibility of doing couples therapy at all I think if you take all the um more like extreme situations about like if cheating is not an issue and it's not like deeper issues. It's just like miscommunications. I think marriage goes through um seasons and I think people often cannot handle a season but they don't know it's a season. I think that's kind of like what I see in my line of work is like okay well you know there was like this exciting three years of marriage and they're not it's not exciting anymore and they're like we should be divorced it's not and and maybe they are not aware that maybe this not excited season is going to pass. It usually is very difficult when they have newborns, right? Like I I do a lot of um divorces when they come in and they have a very young kid and I just the first thing I think I'm like you're not going through conflict. You're just sleepd deprived. That's what happens when you have a newborn. But sometimes people don't have the perspective that this will get better. They just look at it and say this is going to be my life. I don't want this life. I want to move on.

[00:46:51]I divorce would be a solution. And I am not I'm not a relationship expert. Um but I do feel like [snorts] so much of divorce and why it becomes high conflict is so much deeper than than just arguing over the issue. So a lot of it is like this feeling of being misunderstood. And then they spend a lot of money on attorneys to make a point because they tried making this point during their marriage. It didn't And whatever way they're making this point, whatever the point is, it's very about very much about being misunderstood by the other. So, you know, I did this case very early in my in my career that they were arguing over a toaster >> and the toaster was worth 40 >> toaster. Yeah. You toast bread and it was worth $40 maybe. And at that time they were spending 500 an hour on each attorney to argue over it. And I kept explaining to my client that each email I send to the other side is worth more than this toaster.

[00:48:06]>> Yeah.

[00:48:07]>> And my client was like, I don't care.

[00:48:10]The other side is making this point. We have to make it this point. And you know, I also feel like it's attorney's job to, you know, bring perspective and explain to them that like this is not a fight worth taking cuz you're spending so much more. Um, but in that in those communications, there was this moment that there's like years and years of being ignored and misunderstood and this is this like last chance for them to be understood. And if a judge says, "Okay, this toaster goes to the other side or no, you keep the toaster." there is some sort of, you know, final answer to their unmet needs that happened over the years of divorce. And it's so sad to watch because, you know, you're spending money on attorneys, you're putting this on a public record, but this is a pretty common situation in high conflict divorce. You know, once in a while we get this very complicated financial issues that are novel and maybe a judge's interpretation is necessary. But 95% of the cases that go to court, two sophisticated, you know, knowledgeable attorneys can sit down and divide it in 30 minutes to an hour, but we end up being in court for months or years at a time because people don't like the reasonable approach. they do want a a judge to make a decision because they have this years of resentment of not being understood or not being taken seriously. This it's almost like um you know attorneys become a tool to punish the other side or the process itself becomes a tool. And you know um this weekend last weekend I was at a conference and one of the speakers was talking about the science of revenge.

[00:49:46]And it's it's um very interesting um uh comparison he had that you know that the same brain part that is doing revenge is also the same brain part that is you know responsible for addictions. And just like addiction revenge does not bring any satisfaction. And like we know when people are addicted, they drink or do drugs, but they don't feel satisfied.

[00:50:09]Very quickly they feel really shitty.

[00:50:12]Excuse my French, but and very quickly they need more. So I think there's also that process that they get kind of stuck in that costs a lot in attorneys fees and and you know overcrowds the legal system. And it's really sad. I don't think those are things that couldn't be fixed in mediation or couldn't be fixed in family counseling. But when they get to us, they have already made that decision. And there's really not much they're already on that path. There's really not much we can do to stop them other than to give them final answers.

[00:50:49]So what happens here ar is that myself and my wife Anna whoever come to you and saying obviously we have differences of opinion. We want to get advice from you and we obviously have a lot of respect for you because we kind of both looked at your background and can you help us and rather than making confrontational >> Mhm. settings in court in the public thing and have then a judge divide decide on and all the emotional damage that it can do because what happens in these things that become delicate and difficult. It's not over when the case is over. It will last for a long long long time thereafter. And so is there more now where a couple would decide let's hire somebody that we both can be acceptable?

[00:52:00]>> Yeah. And that would be the mediation process, right? Like a lot of um mediation that goes if the two people come and say we want this to be solved.

[00:52:09]So you're not representing one or the other. You're basically explaining what could happen in court. And that's where you know truly your legal experience and legal knowledge is very relevant because you're explaining the process. You're explaining how expensive it will be.

[00:52:23]You're explaining you know for example in a lot of custody issues people come and say you know should I go to court my soontobe ex does not agree to feed my child only organic. And I believe it's not in the best interest of the child to eat anything but organic food. And you know, as an attorney, I understand you want to feed your child only organically. You're coming from a really good place, but I don't believe a judge is going to deprive the other parent from custody or custodial decisions just because of that. Um, but very similarly to this, if like there's something that is truly negligent or truly dangerous for the child's child's health and well-being, the judge will make a decision. So if you're consulting as a mediator or consulting is just to get a an opinion. Um there's a level of we don't just give legal advice but we go also give this exper advice from coming our experience that I sit and say look I have litigated so many cases. I know every judge in these counties I litigate and I know for sure this judge will never ever rule in your favor if you're being this unreasonable and you're also looking at exposure of attorneys fees.

[00:53:38]So there are ways to do it. And by the way, a lot of cases do go to mediation and and you know and I represent people in mediation and I I'm usually the consulting attorney. Not everything goes to court. It is probably like less than 10% that goes to court.

[00:53:54]>> Okay. And that's kind of what I was looking for because what I believe is mediation in particular of a knowledgeable legal opinion what happens in court and then especially if it is done with the objective in particular when there is children involved uh you know that uh uh you know that to put them through the process and all the bad things that may happen after is beneficial to both parties and much more I would think more rewarding to the legal advisor or the lawyer that can help in the process it can be much more rewarding and if it simply does not work after that part then it is what it is but to see that that as you indicate only 10% of the cases likely go to court that does not mean that they were resolved in a different way. But if the person that is helping in the process can identify the areas of challenges, other ones that are that are doable, but the obvious ones like money and children and all those things that are obvious in courts, then uh you know that would be hopefully much more helpful and and so and would not create the damage. Well, certain cases are not for mediation. So, if there's domestic violence, it's really hard to sit down and mediate with an abuser.

[00:55:33]>> Yeah.

[00:55:34]>> So, that needs the court's intervention.

[00:55:36]It has gone that far in a relationship that needs, you know, intervention. But in, you know, in mediation, so I like mediation for many, many reasons. Um, everything in mediation is confidential.

[00:55:48]So when we file this, you know, pleadings of 14, 15 pages of talking how bad the other parent is or how bad this spouse is, one day their children are going to Google their parents' names and it's going to be all like it's it is public record. It doesn't come up all in Google, but there are all these companies now that we're seeing that are going and buying public records and making scanning it into um you know being more googable. You don't want your child at the age of 12, 13, 14 to Google the parents' name and say, "Oh, my mom said this about my dad. My dad said this about my mom." So, definitely mediation is confidential. And there's like a there's value in keeping everything confidential. There's also value in you know not having not feeling like everything needs to be decided in five minutes in front of a court. mediation has different timeline and there is more you know luxuries afforded to the parties to take some time to think um some situations absolutely need court and there the court is there for a reason it's a very imperfect system when I consult with people for litigation the first five minutes I let them know that I don't sell justice I don't promise justice justice is very subjective the system is very flawed the timeline, how things move are very, you know, different case by case. Sometimes it's too delayed for their case. Sometimes it's too fast. Um, I sell legal representation, legal advice. I do my best with the knowledge I have with the circumstances and I have with the facts that they bring to me.

[00:57:27]So, a lot of people feel like going to court means justice prevailed. That's not what I'm promising to my clients. I don't I don't even know the definition of justice in family law. Usually it means justice for them the one person.

[00:57:43]And so in the court process as most lawyers will say wherever they are including likely you in Canada the Europe or wherever that the court is not predictable. There is no guarantee of the outcome. And don't believe that your reasonable approach with appears will win in a court because a lot of times that does not happen. We do not know what the court will decide. It is never predictable. So if you can find a better way of understanding first the better you know the more you understand it and the more involvement you can get of understanding the process the better your decision will be other than for child abuse and those kind of things obviously which is somewhat criminal in a way but uh you know then you don't know what will happen and and so if you can work it out try to work it out. And and if that means you each go in your direction, that's good. And uh but do not do not believe that uh the court is unpredictable no matter how strong your case may appear to be other than for the obvious.

[00:59:02]>> Yes, absolutely.

[00:59:04]>> We can go on for this is already an hour. We can go on. I I need to have you back again at some point. So uh it it was a privilege to have you on my podcast. As I indicated our podcast are unedited. Uh I released it within two hours. Amazing conversation. We got a lot more to talk about and probably 6 months from now. So we'll contact you again if you can come back. for all the people watching us uh you know if you like our podcast about the topics that I do and and areas involved in subscribe to us share it with others uh like it if you like it uh make comments on it and then watch our podcast this one will be released within two hours unedited Harry it was a privilege and a pleasure to have you on my podcast >> thank you for having me. It was a great conversation. Hope I hope to be back.

[01:00:06]>> Thanks, Harry. Take care.

[01:00:08]>> Bye.