Muslim vs. Mormons Debate - Polite and Friendly | Dr. Sabeel Ahmed

Ajouté : 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]So please again the question is please give me a detailed uh steps on how to establish a just economic system just political system. All the faiths cannot be coming from the same creator because the faith they contradict. So either all the faiths are wrong or one of them is right. All cannot be right 100% at the same time.

[00:00:24]>> That's right.

[00:00:25]>> So son of god is a metaphorical term. is not a literal term because you know just from a logical point of view why would God need children and family and parents? God is one. God is unique.

[00:00:38]>> Conversation >> first time to the mosque.

[00:00:55]>> Yes.

[00:00:55]>> First time coming here. No, this one.

[00:00:58]>> We live just around the corner.

[00:00:59]>> Oh, really? So, you came walking. How do you know each other?

[00:01:02]>> It's my uncle.

[00:01:03]>> Oh, okay.

[00:01:06]>> Um, both of us tend to be heavy students of religion. Uh, and I am one with the uh the understanding that >> if we are to be able to communicate and uh work together, there has to be some sort of spirit of understanding. So if I know nothing about you and you know nothing about me, how am I supposed to communicate and work to you?

[00:01:31]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:32]>> Um so for that through through my life experience I have uh well in all honesty I have been attacked quite heavily throughout my life for a religion I felt and >> which is Christianity.

[00:01:52]Uh we attend the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[00:01:56]>> Mormons, right?

[00:01:58]>> Call formerly called Mormons. Just like that.

[00:02:01]>> Christian term. It's a term given by their enemies. Mormon was the name applied to us from our enemies.

[00:02:09]>> No disrespect.

[00:02:10]>> No inform.

[00:02:12]>> Well, exactly. How are you talking?

[00:02:15]>> Yeah. Yeah. But the topic I want to discuss with both both of you is this, right? And you ask that question if you are worshiping God that means are you a Muslim or are you saved see there are so many faiths in the world we respect the faith right obviously faith in the world all basically from one book >> sure so it's okay don't worry yeah so important for us to know that all the faiths cannot be coming from the same creator because the faith they contradict in some level maybe There are so many commonalities but there are some aspects of faiths that they contradict each other. For example, Muslims don't believe in the crucifixion of Jesus.

[00:03:00]>> You understand?

[00:03:02]>> What I'm saying is that the same God would not give contradictory messages.

[00:03:07]Correct. Important. So either all the faiths are wrong or one of them is right. All cannot be right 100% at the same time.

[00:03:17]>> You agree with that? I agree with you on that.

[00:03:19]>> Fine. So now we have to decide of all the faiths in the world which one is the right or the most right faith. So for that we have to have some conditions and they have to be logical and rational. I'll propose you four conditions. All right. The first condition as a mark of a true faith is that the concept of God in that faith has to be simple appealing based on the scriptures preached by all the prophets.

[00:03:48]>> Mhm.

[00:03:49]>> Correct. Makes sense. So the Islamic concept of God is that God is one and he is creator unique powerful loving guiding creator. So that concept of God was was preached by Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, Solomon, all the prophets.

[00:04:10]What happened was uh Rogers people later on they moved away from that monotheism and started to uh get in touch with cultures that diluted monotheism.

[00:04:22]>> Correct? And so God introduced monotheism again back through prophet after prophet.

[00:04:31]So prophet >> no other god.

[00:04:33]>> Yes we acknowledge that.

[00:04:35]>> So the mark of a true faith is that the concept of god has to be pure based on scripture easy to understand and preached by all the prophets. So the Islamic concept of god fulfills that.

[00:04:47]See all the four conditions has to be fulfilled for the right thing. So that's one condition. Even if you look into Jesus he was asked the question. And this is in Mark 12:28. Of all the commandments, which one is the first, the biggest, the greatest? And Jesus, he said here, Shama, here, O Israel, the Lord our God is one. Love him with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

[00:05:12]That is the first commandment.

[00:05:14]>> Moses said exactly the same, right? So, okay, fine. So, that is a one condition of the right fate.

[00:05:23]I prefer the way Matthew puts it but uh yeah.

[00:05:28]>> Okay. So the second >> go ahead. Yeah.

[00:05:32]>> He's over here.

[00:05:34]>> Um >> and the second important condition is that there are so many scriptures in the world. All the scriptures cannot be coming from the same creator because they contradict. All right. So either all of them are >> even though I am Christian >> it is you wouldn't believe how many arguments I get with people over the Bible.

[00:05:57]>> Okay.

[00:05:58]>> And uh >> sure >> it's like a lot of which are different translations uh different uh >> versions >> ethmology of the wording based on changing it from one language to another. It gets >> very confusing in a very good hurry.

[00:06:14]>> Sure. So the true scripture coming from the creator has to be pure one version in the original language because if a scripture got changed I cannot risk my life in eternity on a scripture which is less than 100%.

[00:06:30]When uh there is a scripture the Quran which is 100%. Right? I mean a simple analogy that I give you know Mark and Roger say this suppose if you have a bottle of Tylerol in your medicine cabinet and if you have a headache you go to one bottle it has expiration date written in there right let's say January 2027 you will say this seems right but then you go to the second bottle of Tylenol and the the expiration date it got kind of bit erased you're not even sure okay what exactly when it will expire for your simple headache you will not go with anything which is suspicious.

[00:07:08]>> Correct.

[00:07:10]>> Or suppose yeah suppose if you have two bottles of water and if one bottle of water the cap has been removed sitting there for a long time second one it is unused. You will not take that one if you have a choice of this one for simple thing like >> reason right. So fine if a book got changed we cannot risk life in eternity because the truth may be changed or the falsehood may be inserted >> and according to Christian scripture that is a very valid point to bring up because I mean uh we know out of one book when I when I lived in California there were 367 different Christian professing religions or faiths all based on the Bible.

[00:08:05]>> Now they can't all be right as you say.

[00:08:10]I agree with that. See there are many >> the aspect is we have as latter day saints we you look at the age of what the Quran is and we have the Book of Mormon which has only been translated once from the pure language.

[00:08:29]>> I understand that. Yes.

[00:08:30]>> And so we we acknowledge it along with the Old and New Testaments.

[00:08:38]>> But they got changed though, >> right? Book of Mormon's never been changed.

[00:08:41]>> No, no. I'm saying the Old and the New Testament.

[00:08:44]There are so many versions of not just the translation, Rogers. I understand the translation, right?

[00:08:50]>> But the version, >> how did Paul die?

[00:08:53]>> Yeah. Not only >> there, the New Testament says there are two different ways that Paul died.

[00:08:59]>> Yeah.

[00:09:00]>> And so, >> so, so, so you acknowledge that they have been changed, right? There are differences of understanding in it and as it says no prophecy is of private interpretation except as given by the Lord himself.

[00:09:14]>> Sure. So some >> which is a definition of a prophet to speak >> to the Lord. So since the old and the new testament got changed, we cannot trust in them as book from books from God because life in eternity depends on picking the right book because uh Catholics they have 73 books, Protestants have 66, Greek Orthodox have 78.

[00:09:39]>> So either somebody added some books or somebody took out some books. Hence why in revelations chapter 22 it says uh you know >> do not add >> do not add to or take away from >> there would be plagues >> but it says in Deuteronomy as well >> now >> do we do we tear everything up from Deuteronomy and say well we can't use it any longer >> but at least the argument is that the book of God has to be pure one virgin original language. So, what I actually argue with a lot of Christians is that verse in Revelation >> isn't just a warning, but it's an actual prophecy that it would happen.

[00:10:16]>> And we see that with all of these different versions of the Bible, what they expect.

[00:10:22]>> However, the Bible is a collection of books written by many different prophets, >> 66 authors. Yeah. And I look less upon the Bible itself and more upon the teachings that is within it. I believe the prophets, not necessarily the person who put the library together.

[00:10:45]>> True. True. But Rogers >> again see if you just go with the message but not by the words the the message is coming from the words. If you change the words the message is changed.

[00:10:57]An example is this. It says in the gospel of Mark, the second gospel, it speaks about Jesus Christ. And then it says in the KGV Bible, the son of God.

[00:11:09]But if you look into the RSV Bible and the NIV Bible, it does not have the words the son of God.

[00:11:17]>> So the theology is changed based upon which version you take.

[00:11:20]>> It's only according to the first chapter of John that in the beginning was the word. The word was with God and the word was God.

[00:11:33]That was his son speaking on his behalf.

[00:11:39]>> Uh in that in that regards that's where our belief is. We believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, the literal son of God.

[00:11:51]>> So, so there is a small difference. Then I will come to point three and four.

[00:11:55]>> Understand that?

[00:11:55]>> Yes. So what we say is that the word son of god as mentioned in the bible it's a metaphorical term not a literal term and the reason is this that according to the eastern dictionary of the bible son of god means a righteous person. So for that reason in the old testament uh David is called as the begotten son of god. Psalms chapter 2 verse number 7 jacob is called as the son of god. You know angels are called son of god.

[00:12:25]Epherin is called a son of God. In the New Testament, uh, uh, Luke 3:38, Adam is called a son of God.

[00:12:33]>> That's right.

[00:12:33]>> So, son of God is a metaphorical term.

[00:12:36]It's not a literal term. Because, you know, just from a logical point of view, why would God need children and family and parents? God is one. God is unique.

[00:12:46]>> New conversation.

[00:12:47]>> All right.

[00:12:48]>> Which I don't.

[00:12:50]>> We believe created many worlds >> that I know from the from your theology. Yes. Okay. Let me just finish two important points, right?

[00:12:58]Then these guys are waiting for me here.

[00:13:01]>> Sorry.

[00:13:02]>> So the two Okay. So >> that's the ground.

[00:13:05]>> Oh, right.

[00:13:06]So So the second criteria is the book of God should not be changed should be in one version in pure form. So Quran satisfied that also unlike the old and the new testament. The third important criteria is see I'm a parent of three children. I want to give them comprehensive guidance both personal, spiritual, physical, educational, right?

[00:13:29]Social, cultural comprehensive guidance.

[00:13:33]God is like a loving parent much more than that obviously. So he's not going to give he's not going to deprive humanity from the way that we should form societies, how to tackle the social ills of the society. So a mark of a true faith is that that guidance that scripture that faith has to give comprehensive guidance workable guidance that eradicates the social ills of the society. So we say when you compare to the old testament, new testament, hindu scripture, any scripture, Quran is that only scripture that gives a holistic guidance in all walks of life for a person, for family and yes for humanity.

[00:14:15]In saying that, >> yes, >> I am fully under the belie that every culture would claim the exact same thing about their rights.

[00:14:24]>> No, not really. Not really. Rogers, >> one of them has.

[00:14:27]>> No, no, you claim the Quran.

[00:14:29]>> Uh, Christians claim the Bible. Uh, Confuciousism claims to their work.

[00:14:35]Every culture will claim the same thing about their own work.

[00:14:38]>> They can claim, but they have to give the evidence. For example, okay, let's let's take the New Testament. Okay. So, I read the Bible by the way and I'm a Bible collector also like 300 plus Bibles. All right. So, so if you take the New Testament, I will ask this to a Christian, right? Give me a comprehensive process from the New Testament that tackles drug abuse, uh, gambling, racism, divorce, a comprehensive, not just a superficial statement, love your neighbors, but a comprehensive process. How all the social ills needs to be eradicated. We needed the New Testament does not have it.

[00:15:21]>> I taught that class two years ago.

[00:15:23]>> That's right. I gave the very comprehensive understanding right from the New Testament alone.

[00:15:30]>> Okay. Fine. So, so to form a just society based upon a just political system and economic system, what is the process in the New Testament?

[00:15:42]>> No, no, no. Go for it. I mean, I would like to hear it. Uh, >> just from the New Testament, by the way, >> just from the New Testament, >> of course. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them." So what are the fruits?

[00:15:57]You take a look at the fruits of the spirit and the fruits of God. A just comprehensive society will put him first of a personal relationship with deity.

[00:16:12]And through that personal relationship will begin to bear fruits of goodness.

[00:16:18]And those fruits of goodness will lead you to a stronger relationship with deity, leading you and teaching you about justice, mercy, and all the things that go with it. When you begin to disobey the spirit of Allah, that is when society falls apart. So please again the question is please give me a detailed uh steps on how to establish a just economic system just political system in detail by the way because what you mentioned I truly respect that by the way no >> then then we don't have time to give you that comprehensive answer >> if you ask me that question I'll give it to you right away not 3 hours by the way less than 5 minutes let's go for that should I We don't have communication and we won't understand one another if we don't have communication. Yes. We >> we open the door for communication and that's what we're asking.

[00:17:18]>> No. Very good. Right. So what I'm saying is Roger and Mark. So Quran and the prophetic example not only it gave us the explanation in detail practical workable beneficial in history when people implemented that society became sober drug abuse dropped to zero racism was eradicated poverty was eradicated economic disparity was eradicated that society became spiritually psychologically morally educationally family-wise and technologically that society became the best of all society.

[00:17:52]So not only the detailed guidance is there but it was implemented in humanity.

[00:17:58]>> Okay.

[00:17:58]>> So by the fruits you should know them.

[00:18:00]So that already happened.

[00:18:02]>> That's right.

[00:18:02]>> So do you do you really want me to give you a comprehensive?

[00:18:06]>> There is another aspect is back in the 1840s.

[00:18:09]>> Mhm.

[00:18:11]Every every aspect you said that was being eliminated has been eliminated in the states for a while under the law of United Order >> that was set up by the >> in the whole US >> in the known US at the time.

[00:18:28]>> So slavery was what 10 years it didn't exist further past the Mississippi River. It was predominantly all eastern.

[00:18:37]So some of the ills >> so at at that time uh Mark was uh racism eradicated was uh slavery eradicated was poverty eradicated I doubt it >> yes >> it was >> at that time but people couldn't live it >> to the same extent >> okay >> we have that >> please you claim so I'm going to read you from our scriptures okay you >> no no hold on from the new testament I'm saying so let's go with the new testament Then we'll come to other scriptures maybe. So from the New Testament just from the New Testament let's see what does it say for some of the social ills.

[00:19:16]>> Okay.

[00:19:16]>> Stepwise detail and that works sometime in history. Please say see you are asking a question impossible to answer.

[00:19:24]Okay. Because you are asking for just one section and that section was put together by the Catholic Church. Okay.

[00:19:33]>> You mean the New Testament?

[00:19:34]>> The New Testament.

[00:19:35]>> Okay. Fine. Therefore, >> it is >> it is difficult to pull it out because those things that would teach a just society >> were taken out by a culture and a religion that wished domination and control.

[00:19:52]>> So, hold on. What you're saying is that after the after the canonization of the New Testament, uh, somebody took out some things. A lot of it was >> I am saying >> are you speaking about the seven books?

[00:20:07]>> No, I am saying >> that Christianity >> was a culture before the Nikian creed before Constantine >> 325 >> and >> the culture and religion of Christianity did follow those precepts.

[00:20:28]>> Where are those?

[00:20:30]That's a question.

[00:20:31]>> Finish, please.

[00:20:32]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:20:33]>> Okay.

[00:20:35]>> When it was taken over by greed, when Christianity was hijacked by greed, political power >> and selfishness, it fell apart >> and we >> so please come to that point.

[00:20:50]>> So >> I am not going to be reading from the New Testament. Okay.

[00:20:54]>> Okay. So the point is that New Testament we need it. New Testament does not have it. Let's go to the Old Testament.

[00:21:00]Rogers, >> you're still not letting me finish my point. Okay. So, I'm going to read you from the Book of Mormon.

[00:21:06]>> Well, I mean, I will come to the Book of Mormons, but I I just want to see with all due respect, we want to first exhaust New Testament and Old Testament if there is some detailed framework for solutions. If you don't have it, you can say that. I'm trying to make a logical case that Mark H no we can come to the >> we can come to the book of Mormons right but again my question was this in the New Testament is there a detailed process the answer is no in the old testament is there >> but it's simplified to a way that you've actually already spoken okay however it is humanity and it is being human beings filled with selfishness that cannot even obey those two commandments that you mentioned earlier.

[00:21:54]Love God and love your neighbor.

[00:21:56]>> Those are good commandments, Rogers. But you know, >> well, if you could live them perfectly and if society could live them perfectly, there would be no need for any other teaching or commandment.

[00:22:08]>> We do.

[00:22:09]>> However, >> as humanity, >> we're a little too stupid to figure that out. Since since God knows humanity, they will not be able to live with those really uh you know uh simple commandments. So God in the Quran also gave us comprehensive. See in the Quran, God also has something similar. Love one another, be good to each other, be good neighbors. But God as a good parent, see me as a good parent, I will just not say you know be good son. I will say you know what to be a good son clean your room put your clothes there wash your clothes wash your body eat this way avoid that the detail instructions I give to my children the better for them so we need the details Bible doesn't have it we need the details the Quran has it that's the point I'm trying to make >> if you would like the details let me read them to you >> not from the Book of Mormons yet by the way I just want to see from the Bible does it have it >> aspect though that if every religion >> quote unquote in the world lived but their own belief structure the world would still be a better place than it is now. I believe that.

[00:23:22]>> We I believe that >> we agree. We agree. That's the common thing.

[00:23:26]>> That is the basic most simplest aspect.

[00:23:29]It doesn't matter who you are, what you believe. If you truly believe what you >> say you do, >> better than no faith.

[00:23:37]>> So >> that's right.

[00:23:39]>> Anything brings us.

[00:23:40]>> Can I make the last point then I will hear from you. Right.

[00:23:43]>> Just for we're going to go back >> just for the sake of uh you know the sequence. So the first uh so the first point I mentioned the right concept of God. The second point is the purity of the scripture. The third point is the comprehensive guidance.

[00:23:58]>> And the fourth point is important the pathway to paradise.

[00:24:03]>> So the pathway to paradise has to be just and fair.

[00:24:08]>> It has to be accountability for what you do with what you bear. Because every court system in the world, it agrees that if somebody's driving over the speed limit, they should be the one with consequences, not the neighbor, not their family. Fine. So, Islamic pathway to paradise is just and fair.

[00:24:27]Compared to the Christian pathway that somebody died for their sins, the Hindu pathway, the reincarnation, you come back as a monkey, a cockroach, a dog, right? So people have different ideologies but all of them are unjust and unfair and incomplete. The Islamic pathway to paradise is complete, merciful, forgiving, just and fair. That depends on personal accountability, right? Nobody takes away my sins. I cannot give sins to others. What I do is what I bear. So that's Islamic pathway.

[00:25:02]So if you have to take check mark you know rational fair and just pathway Islam still gets that check mark oneness of God purity of scripture comprehensive guidance workable practical and then pathway to paradise I rest my case okay >> I am glad you >> and no contradictions >> yeah no contradictions too >> yeah so I am actually glad we agree >> now What I am saying is >> I agree with you 100% in the words that is coming out of your mouth.

[00:25:38]>> Okay. I do >> uh >> as you are saying want some of our scripture because of >> okay best way I can describe it is actually what the Muslim missionary taught me.

[00:25:56]>> So it it actually is do you mind? Who?

[00:26:00]Okay.

[00:26:03]So, put this aside for a second. Okay.

[00:26:10]Allah established a pattern.

[00:26:12]He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[00:26:17]He called Adam to be a prophet. He spoke with Adam face to face. Okay? He taught him his word. He gave him his law. Adam in turn taught his children.

[00:26:30]And what happened?

[00:26:33]>> Did they all listen?

[00:26:34]>> Lost.

[00:26:37]>> So they fell away.

[00:26:39]>> The story of Cain and Abel in there somewhere.

[00:26:41]>> And that was just the the first generation who were still walking with their parents. Okay.

[00:26:49]They fell away.

[00:26:51]>> Okay. So after Adam uh died, Allah called another prophet. Okay.

[00:27:00]Who's the next one?

[00:27:01]>> Like Enoch or Alexio.

[00:27:03]>> Okay. Enoch taught. Enoch converted thousands. Okay. Many people listened to him, >> brought them back.

[00:27:11]>> However, many people did not.

[00:27:14]>> Simple truth.

[00:27:15]>> Brought them back to the plain and simple truth. And in our religion, we believe that the people of Enoch lived those just laws. They were taught the truth. They were taught how to live a society where there was no poor among them. They were taught the proper ways because a prophet dwelt among them.

[00:27:38]>> Mhm.

[00:27:39]>> However, afterwards they fell away.

[00:27:45]So calls null and he taught. He taught for 300 years before God said, "Okay, enough about it.

[00:28:00]The flood happened and things were wiped clean."

[00:28:05]After that, Abraham who in his desire to have that personal relationship with God again sought him out. And as you said in your in your sermon, found him, spoke with him personally, >> and then proceeded to teach his children.

[00:28:27]Okay. And depending on how it is that you want to uh uh uh say it, whether it was Isaac or or Ishmael or however >> um by what I saw on the screen that >> and you have acknowledged Jacob, Joseph, >> you know, as prophets as well. And they too, well, Jacob taught his children.

[00:28:57]And then 10 of them took Joseph and sold them into slavery.

[00:29:01]I kumba human beings. What's wrong with you? Right? But Joseph through Allah's grace was placed in the position to save his family.

[00:29:13]He too was a prophet who taught justice and mercy.

[00:29:18]After that they fell away again.

[00:29:23]So he calls Moses, same thing. Calls him up to the mountain, talks with him personally, gives him a book, tells him his teachings.

[00:29:32]>> They go good for a while and then they fall away again. Are we starting to see a pattern?

[00:29:38]>> This is what I learned from you guys 20 years ago. Okay.

[00:29:43]>> There there is a comical book called Charlie Parkinson's Old Testament and the absolute I don't know if you've ever heard it or seen it but Charlie Parkinson is a Canadian comedian.

[00:29:55]>> Okay.

[00:29:56]>> And uh it's interesting because at the end of it he's holding up the Ten Commandments and he says after everything I've studied and everything I've learned you're doing it all wrong.

[00:30:10]>> Okay. And that's basically what happens that people get caught up in something and then they decide they're going to do it their way. And he's right when he says you're doing it all wrong. You're not doing it the way that God created Allah has turned around and given to us the pure and simple ways. So Rajes if you can come to the point with the same crux of the topic that it will really help us to understand right where you're coming from please what I'm trying to get to.

[00:30:45]>> So we see that all throughout um the Quran the old testament all the way up to Jesus where he keeps calling prophets Elias uh Elisha you know all of these different ones and they teach they bring them back and they leave again. And with Jesus he taught once again they started living but before even a hundred years passed away the apostasy happened again.

[00:31:18]Okay. There is a clear pattern of human behavior and a clear pattern of Allah always trying to draw us back to him.

[00:31:32]in that by the time Christianity got to 3:25 AD, it had already apostasized and fallen away. By the time the Bible was formulated and collected in the current Western version, it had already fallen away. And those people who were organizing it were doing so for political power and greed.

[00:32:02]>> So can you please come to that point because you know it's taking a bit long.

[00:32:05]Just come to the point with the same question. Okay.

[00:32:08]>> That a book of God, a faith of God should have a detailed process to fight social ills. So if you can please come to that point that will be really great.

[00:32:18]It will help me to understand you know your background. Yes.

[00:32:22]Muslims believe through that pattern God called Muhammad.

[00:32:27]>> Yes.

[00:32:28]>> Okay.

[00:32:30]>> I am somebody who is capable of recognizing that because I recognize the pattern. Okay.

[00:32:38]And so because of that they did live a good life for that where I begin to disagree is through that very same pattern that I do believe it has once again fallen away and fallen into corruption. And so God has had to call another prophet in these modern times for the very same reason he is called prophets of ancient times with this one that I am speaking of with Joseph Smith. Once again, a prophet spoke with God, was given a book, was given teachings, and was led to an understanding just like Muhammad was, just like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, just like all of the prophets of old.

[00:33:33]And in that book is where I would like to read where you are talking about a society of justice and mercy.

[00:33:43]>> Yeah. Go ahead and read that. Uh can I quickly make one comment?

[00:33:46]>> Yeah. So the comment is that according to Islam, the previous prophets and the previous books that came before Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, they were not comprehensive and they were only meant for that specific culture of Jesus and Moses and Jacob. So they were not meant for all of humanity. So their guidance is limited and their uh details were incomplete means incomplete in the sense that they were complete for that specific culture but they're not applicable for all of humanity because humanity is much more diverse languages, races, cultures, nationalities. So we need a prophet that is a prophet for all of humanity, a universal prophet. And we need a scripture that is applicable to all of humanity. I'm glad we agree.

[00:34:37]>> So what we say uh Roger says that prophet is Muhammad peace be upon him appointed by the creator and that book is the Quran which is complete. Anything which is complete and perfect, we don't need something