Why The Odyssey Was Never Historically Accurate

[00:00:00]Homer is not describing a real culture.

[00:00:03]Yeah.

[00:00:03]>> It's it's this sort of weird amalgam of like memories of the Bronze Age, Iron [music] Age, perhaps sort of, you know, archaic period, maybe even classical because the the time that is being described as very amorphous and it's really this kind of fantasy world of of an imagined heroic past.

[00:00:21]>> So, how could you even say what an accurate helmet would look like? Like Odysius is described in the Iliad at one point as wearing a Masonian bore tusk helmet, but I don't I don't know that we have to put him in that.

[00:00:36]Seliana, thank you so much for taking the time to come back and talk about the thing that is in everyone's feed all the time, The Odyssey. We are recording this before we've seen the movie. The movie is not yet out, so we're not here to do a movie review, but I appreciate you coming by to talk a little bit about some of what's in the story and some of the larger conversation about the Odyssey and Adysius as well, cuz that feels like it's everywhere right now.

[00:01:01]So, can we start with the summary of the story first before we get into the fire of the fight that everyone is in? When you get asked to do something like this and to summarize the story down of the Odyssey, where do you start? What is your or do you have that like elevator pitch version of what this story is?

[00:01:21]>> Well, Homer starts in Medios race in the middle of the action uh which is very cinematic and contemporary of Homer. So I will start there as well.

[00:01:34]>> Okay.

[00:01:34]>> Poem opens. Odysius has uh been gone from home for 20 years. He left for the Trojan War. Trojan War lasted 10 years.

[00:01:43]Trojan War ended. It's been 10 more years. Where's Odysius?

[00:01:48]So, his family, his son, who is now an adult, his wife, uh they don't know where he is, and he, it turns out, has been captured by a nymph and is being held captive on her island. Um, so this is where the story opens and the gods say, "Should we should we help Odysius get home?" And they decide, "Yes, yes, they will." [clears throat] So, we hear actually most of Odysius's adventures in flashback, >> you know, the monsters that he has to fight. Um, but then halfway through the poem, he actually gets back to Ithaca.

[00:02:24]So half of the poem is him actually on Ithaca having to deal with the suitors who have come to try to marry his wife because they're like, "Well, the king's dead. We need a new king. I would like to marry the king's wife and become king and take all of his stuff." And you know, his wife Penelopey has been resisting them. His son Tmicus has, you know, he's like, "Well, I'm supposed to be king. Actually, I'm an adult now."

[00:02:49]And they're like, "No, [laughter] >> no, not for you."

[00:02:52]>> Yeah. and and it's they're they're actually plotting to kill Tmicus. So like it's a very bad situation. Odysius knows that if he just shows up and declares himself, they'll kill him as well. So he has to come up with an elaborate scheme to kill the suitors and reclaim uh his kingdom and his family, which he does.

[00:03:10]>> In that summary there, you mentioned that about halfway through he gets home.

[00:03:14]>> Yes. And a lot of people have probably heard that this is a story about going home, which if halfway through we get home seems to maybe complicate that explanation. So do you think this is a story about coming home? And if it is, do we need to reframe what we think of about what that means in order to understand what the story is? Well, he so he gets back to Ithaca in book 13, but he's not really home yet because his home is being occupied by hostile people. So, it's like it's not just about returning to Ithaca, it's about reclaiming his identity as Odysius, the king. Okay. So, that that takes him >> 12 books. Yes.

[00:03:55]>> So, that is in this home word journey.

[00:03:57]It's a place, but it's also the identity and it's the relationships. It's all of those things. It's not just this like spatial thing.

[00:04:04]>> Yeah. Okay. Can I also loop back to you said that it it comes to us in flashbacks. It feels kind of cinematic.

[00:04:12]There is a movie that's coming out here and this is often one of the ways that this story gets talked about as feeling so modern, feeling in some ways like a screenplay >> rather postmodern. You see that article in the Guardian?

[00:04:24]>> Yes. Is this something that is unique to this story when we're when we're looking at it in the context of the ancient literature that surrounds it? Is this a distinctive feature about the Odyssey or is this something that is more common than we give credit for? It's this is just the one that has stood out as being most famous.

[00:04:42]>> Well, because the Odyssey is so influential on like all of later European and indeed world literature, um it I think it's the first that we have, right? But the like the Ania does the same thing, you know, it's it starts, you know, partway through Anias's journey and flashes back and goes forward. So uh I I think that what is surprising to us right is that something so old is using these narrative techniques that we think of as so modern but on the other hand the odyssey is so deeply embedded in the DNA of how we tell stories and our culture that we don't necessarily realize that what we think is modern is actually ancient.

[00:05:24]Outside of this, are there other things that you think people should have in mind and more than just the jumping back when it's so deeply embedded? Are there a couple other things that people should say we need to give credit to Homer and the Odyssey for that are the most important >> uh in terms of like >> in terms of the way Yeah. Homer and the Odyssey have really set up some of this storytelling pattern that we have that you go regardless of how you feel about the movie that's going to come out or the reading of this, hey, you need to kind of tip your hat to Homer and the Odyssey because when you see this, this or this, these are also things that have come from from this particular story.

[00:06:00]>> Yeah. Well, the Odyssey is actually quite complex. uh like it is a story about monsters and you know coming like a guy trying to get home to his family but there's also a lot of elements of like how do we know what is true and so that's why some people have called it postmodern because so Odysius tells the story of his journey like up to the like present of the poem um to uh the king of the fasians uh he you know he gets shipwrecked on the island after escaping from the nymph and he has to tell the Fishians who he is so they'll help him get home to Ithaca. Uh, and so that's where we hear about, you know, the Cyclops and the Lotus Eaters and the Sirens and the the classic, you know, like stories that you would read in a children's version of the Odyssey. But we're all hearing that from Odysius.

[00:06:52]>> So, is that is that true? Do we believe that all of that happened? especially given that when Odysius gets back to Ithaca, he tells a series of what we call lying tales because he's pretending to be someone else. So, he'll spin this elaborate narrative about his his pretend identity um like three different stories three different times to different people. He does this and we know that those are fake.

[00:07:16]>> So, when he's telling the quote unquote real story of his adventures, is that real?

[00:07:24]>> Where do you sit? Do you do you feel like it gives us an answer that we can look to to say we should trust as much as we can uh his version of accounts here while we don't trust it later on?

[00:07:35]Well, >> I think part of the fun is that you don't necessarily trust Odysius.

[00:07:41]Uh and there's this sort of tension that's inherent in oral poetry where the poet is is claiming that everything he says is true. Yeah. Because he gets it from the muse. But then sometimes the poet will contradict that and say like I only I only hear the story. I don't actually know the truth. Like these contradictory statements that we see in the Iliad in the Odyssey about how much knowledge the poet actually has. Um and Odysius as a kind of stand-in poet I think represents this inherent kind of tension between truth and fiction in oral poetry. As an audience member, are we supposed to like Adysius if he is both the hero character and the poet that's standing in? Or is that something that's like a foreign modern idea that we should like the characters in the stories that we're presented with when maybe it's doing something different? I think we're definitely supposed to like him because in the the poem of the Odyssey, the beginning that introduces >> what the story is about, the poet says, you know, yes, all of Odysius's men died, but it was not their fault. Oh, sorry. It wasn't his fault. It wasn't his fault. It was their fault. Yeah.

[00:08:52]They they ate the cattle of the sun and so they got blasted to smitherines, but he tried to save them. It wasn't his fault. So, from the very beginning, I think that the poet is saying Odysius is the guy that we're rooting for.

[00:09:06]>> Are we supposed to like everything about him within this or does it have little carveouts? Cuz there's parts of what he does that feel from our perspective hard to support or stand behind or read at times. Not all of that may have been so troublesome for murders, the slaves who were disloyal to him.

[00:09:27]>> Yeah. those kinds of parts, parts that maybe sometimes don't make it into the adaptations or the retellings of things.

[00:09:32]>> Um, well, I think unfortunately to an ancient audience, um, perhaps it would have been considered uh acceptable >> to torture and murder your disloyal slaves. I mean there's there's been some debate about that because you know Odysius um you know tells Tmicus to kill the female slaves who slept with the suitors but then Tmicus kind of kills them in this more gruesome way. Uh so then there's a debate of like well did Tmicus go overboard there? But Odysius did still say to kill them. So um I but unfortunately right like that it's a very different culture from ours. They have a very different morality. Um, you know, a lot of people get hung up on Odysius had sex with, you know, a couple of different sort of magical uh women, Cersei and Calypso on his way home. But there's so much emphasis placed on how important it is for Penelopey to remain faithful. And if you know, if she had ever had sex with another man, that would have been probably grounds for him to kill her. Although that's never explicitly stated, but like that's just how ancient Greek morality around marital sexuality worked is that it's expected that women will remain chased and only have sex with their husbands, but men are not expected to do that.

[00:10:50]They can have sex with whoever they want as long as it's not another protected category of person like someone else's wife.

[00:10:56]>> When you see conversations and representations of Penelopey coming up, that point often is that first thing that gets talked about. And unfortunately, sometimes it's the only part of Penelopey that seems to be talked about, her relationship to Adysius, who she does or doesn't or however she fits into there. And yet, she is a much more complicated and grounded character throughout this whole story. Okay. So, before we getting get into some of that the blockbuster version of these things, cuz this is one of those parts that come over, how do you wish more people thought of Penelope in order to understand this story, the presentation of Adysius and and the way that this story is working? Is she just that character that's sitting back at home for him to come home and save, or is there a lot more going on with her that people need to go, "Oh, this is a whole different thing." Well, I I would hope that people are familiar with the fact that she is also a schemer like Odysius. So, one of her most uh characteristic things that she does is she puts off the suitors for three years by saying she has to weave a shroud for her father-in-law, Leertes, Odysius's father, who's not dead yet, but she's like, "Well, I have to have the shroud ready cuz he's old and he's going to die." Uh, and people will think badly of me if I don't bury him properly. Uh, so but she's weaving during the day and then every night she unweaves what she did. And the suitors have no like they don't know I think because we can assume as men they don't understand how textile production works. They're like oh I guess this is just taking a long time.

[00:12:27]>> Takes a really long time to make this.

[00:12:29]>> Yeah. Well and I mean obviously if she's weaving some sort of elaborate like tapestry with pictures it would it would take a long time. Like that would be a very labor intensive project. Uh so but for three years she puts them off using uh this trick. Um but then she's eventually found out because her maids betray her. Um but so like that that's an example of how she schemes. Um >> yeah.

[00:12:53]>> And then of course when Odysius comes home, she doesn't just accept him immediately after he reveals himself.

[00:13:01]She has to test him. Like we can Odysius has been testing everyone since he got home. Like there's even a whole scene where he's talking to Penelope in disguise, not revealing himself to her.

[00:13:13]Um but then when he does reveal himself, she doesn't just fall into his arms. Um she says, "Well, okay, we'll move your bed, you know, out of our room and move it to the hallway." And then he freaks out and he says, "Well, how can you move my bed?" Right? I made it out of an olive tree that was rooted to the ground. And she says, "Okay, you're actually Odysius.

[00:13:32]>> You pass the test.

[00:13:33]>> You pass the test." Yeah.

[00:13:34]>> So she's a much more grounded figure. is she emotionally what role do you see her playing for this story?

[00:13:42]>> Well, I think that Penelope is like I think you're right that there's more going on with her than just Odysius's faithful wife. Um like I think her relationship with her son is very interesting because she has been ruling Ithaca while Odysius is gone. So she's basically had to be the king and like the she's the sole parent to their child. She's the authority over their child. But their son, Tmicus, is now, you know, a young man. He's like 20 years old approximately. Um, and he doesn't want to be bossed around by his mom anymore. So, he's trying to boss her around. So, now because he's the man of the house, or he wants to be, right? He can't quite be yet, but he wants to be.

[00:14:19]So, there's that tension um that, you know, is is very reflective of of the the difficult dynamic she's trying to navigate, of holding this place open for her husband who has been gone for so long. and like how to be a woman who's trying to hold power in this deeply patriarchal society. Um, but also I think there's a lot about Penelope that is obscure to us. I think perhaps intentionally.

[00:14:49]>> So some of some of her actions, why she does them, it's not entirely clear. So in book 17 of the Odyssey, she is certain that Odysius is going to come home, right? She uh Tmicus sneezes and Penelope interprets this as a good omen that Odysius is going to come home.

[00:15:09]Another way that like this is clearly a very different culture.

[00:15:12]>> Quite obvious. Quite obvious if someone sneezes, I know exactly what that means.

[00:15:15]>> Yes. Um but then in the next book, book 18, she comes down to the suitors and she says, "Well, Odysius told me that if he didn't come home, you know, and our son had grown up to be a man that I should remarry and leave." uh which is a complete about face because she she's like I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna pick one of you. I'm gonna marry him. Um why why is she doing this when in the previous book she was sure he was coming home? Uh and then she you know she she says I'll marry the man who can you know shoot an arrow on Odysius's bow through 12 axe heads. That's the test. Uh did did she sort of give up? You know she thought he was coming home but then she like loses faith. Um is she lying to the suitors?

[00:15:56]Is this another scheme? Does she actually suspect that Odysius is here on Ithaca and she's trying to draw him out?

[00:16:05]Um, but we don't know. The poet doesn't tell us.

[00:16:08]>> It makes it hard to get at the core of Penelope. Like, I think we we know Odysius very well. Despite all of his lies, I think we know him very well as a character. Penelope, you know, is still we're kind of in the dark there. There's different Penelopees that can emerge in different interpretations. Like there's a Penelope who doesn't have a lot of agency and is sort of this unwitting pawn of Odysius and Athena, his divine patron, and she's just being manipulated into doing things that will help Odysius. And then there's this other Penelope who is aware that Odysius has come home and is actually kind of manipulating him because he doesn't know that she knows that it's him. So, it's but we don't know, right? We're not we're not given an insight into that.

[00:16:53]And you know, is that just because the poet wants to create suspense? We don't know Penelopey's true feelings until the very end. Uh or, you know, some people are like, "This is just bad writing."

[00:17:06][laughter] >> Yeah. You just can't make up your mind on who the character is supposed to be.

[00:17:10]>> Yeah.

[00:17:10]>> Or not. In these complications, I want to jump from there into adaptation conversations because there is a big one looming on the horizon. Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. that is a current version. It is by no means the only adaptation of the Odyssey to exist. It's just the one that's getting a lot of conversation right now.

[00:17:28]Feels like a lot of times with these adaptations there is the good or bad.

[00:17:33]This adaptation is either successful and it's great and people like it or it's bad and it's the worst thing that ever came along. And as you're laying out the story line and the complications and the well, what version of this should you trust and who is this character, there are a lot of traps that open up in that good and bad dichotomy. So for you as someone who studies Homer deeply and has a deep love for these texts, when you see adaptations or conversations like this, where do you start in how you look at things and being good or bad or successful or what's the point of it?

[00:18:06]Where do you begin? Well, I think I start from the position of this is not for me, >> okay?

[00:18:12]>> It's not made to please a homerous. It's made to please a general audience. And so my interest is in uh how does the audience receive it?

[00:18:22]>> Uh how does it make them think about the Odyssey? Does it make them excited to read the poem? Will it bring more students into my classes? Will it just increase the publicity of Homer in the general consciousness? Like all of that would be great. I would love that. Um I think that for me it's hard it's hard for me to say like will this be a good or a bad adaptation because there's so many different ways to judge that.

[00:18:46]>> Yeah. Like what does that even mean?

[00:18:47]>> What does that even mean? Yeah. Like will it be a quote unquote faithful adaptation?

[00:18:52]That's not possible. You know, it's a movie always has to change something to like fit a story into that format. You know, even if the the movie is almost three hours long, there's just, >> you know, we're we're going to have to do some fiddling. M >> um to to get it into that sort of you know that time frame. Um and then you know like the people have been upset about the costumes or whatever.

[00:19:16]>> Yeah. Costumes always feel like the sore thumb that people can jump on easily to say the helmets are right or wrong or the ship and and like that's a thing.

[00:19:24]That's a thing you can talk about >> but isn't the most important?

[00:19:27]>> Yeah. I don't think it is important especially because like Homer is not describing a real culture. Yeah. It's it's this sort of weird amalgam of like memories of the Bronze Age, Iron Age, perhaps sort of, you know, archaic period, maybe even classical because the the time that is being described as very amorphous and it's really this kind of fantasy world of of an imagined heroic past. So, how could you even say what an accurate helmet would look like? Like Odysius is described in the Iliad at one point as wearing a Masonian Bortusk helmet, but I don't I don't know that we have to put him in that necessarily.

[00:20:05]>> When when you you can see the same struggle happening in ancient depictions of this vase paintings. If you're going to go, well, is this armor accurate or how is this dealing with the same muddiness of how do we make people understand this and what time period is it representing? In no way is it a new struggle that people are coming to as they wrestle with this. So if it's not for you and if your hope is then maybe how does this get the general public engaged or interested for people who are weighing whether they should go see the movie or weighing how do you encourage them or discourage them? Is there a criteria you would say like, oh, well, if you're going to just be mad about it, don't go see it or, you know, should everyone go and see it and be mad anyways and maybe it makes you go and read the thing? Like, where where do you point people?

[00:20:52]>> Well, I'm curious about the person who hasn't read the Odyssey but is mad about the movie. Like, who is that person?

[00:20:58]>> I don't know. But there's tons of them.

[00:20:59]It seems >> I Yeah. Well, I think that they should both read the poem and see the movie and then make up their mind. [laughter] I feel like it's it's hard to have an accurate judgment if you haven't actually engaged with either one. Yeah, >> I think everyone should read the Odyssey.

[00:21:12]>> Well, that opens up a whole other question though cuz then people will say, "Well, which if I'm going to read it, you have the same it's another adaptation version in translation. Which version of the Odyssey should I read?" I can't tell you how many listical type things I've seen of here are the translations and here's the best one or here's the one that you should read. Is that the same way for you when you look at those translations to just say just pick one up, just read something? Is that the best option? I mean, I think that there is no definitive best translation because each one is trying to do something different and each one is is trying to capture some element of the original, but it can never capture nothing. No translation can capture what the original really sounds like, which is why I learned Greek. And you know what? I encourage everyone to learn Greek as well, but I know that's not going to happen. [laughter] >> Who knows? You can ask. We can always improve.

[00:22:02]>> I mean, I I think that if you really care what the Odyssey says, and that's very important to you, you should absolutely learn Greek because reading Homer in Greek is a unparalleled phenomenal experience. I know Jordan that may not have been the case for you, but [laughter] >> it certainly encourages one to consider the brilliance of some individuals, I'd say, as you as you look through it. But we talked about this last time, the process of translation. Even if you're going to read the Greek, you then step into those I'm making decisions and how I choose to render this word. How I understand the character. What's my feeling about this character and how I want to portray them in a moment when I have lots of options. Are they trustworthy? Are they too wily? Is she being manipulative? Is she being honest?

[00:22:48]It it just opens door after door, which is a part of what makes it great, but a part of what does feel so frustrating when you see people talking about it.

[00:22:55]Just say, "Well, it's either good or bad. you should watch it, you shouldn't watch it. They got this right or they got that wrong. It's like there's a whole other conversation that you should have after hopefully having read it and maybe going and watching it that could be more um beneficial to to all of us than just saying yes or no.

[00:23:14]>> Yeah. Well, as as someone who has read the Greek, I can weigh the accuracy and the effectiveness of different translations and say, well, I really like that this one has captured the poetry, >> but it's maybe a little looser with how accurate it is. This one does a really good job of accurately rendering kind of word for word what it says, but it's kind of plotting and maybe not so fun to read. And then maybe this other one is very contemporary in its language, which could appeal to some people and could completely turn other people off. So what I always tell people when they ask me, what's the best translation to read is just look at a few different translations and see which one appeals to you because I think some people worry like, well, what if I read a translation that's not accurate? Well, none of them are going to be accurate in the way that like if if you're like, I want to know what it really says.

[00:24:09]>> You're you can't Yeah. And but like no published translation is going to be so wildly inaccurate that you're not going to get, >> you know, you're not going to get the poem. Like you're going to get the story. I mean, the the translators, they can't really change very much like who Odysius is, who Penelope is, who Tmicus is. I mean the the word choice like it it can be very important but I mean you're basic you're getting the same story >> you're fighting against a lot of text to try to nudge something. You can only make so many little changes.

[00:24:39]>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um so yeah I would say go to the bookstore or you know look at the previews on Kindle or whatever and just be like what looks like something I want to read you know do I want Emily Wilson because it's more accessible and contemporary? Um do I want Fitzgerald because it's more poetic? Um, do I want, you know, Latimore because he's doing like a more accurate line by line translation?

[00:25:03]>> Uh, that's up to you, right? Go check it out and maybe read different translations and compare them. I mean, that like if you're if you're worried about accuracy, that's the best thing you can do if you don't know Greek. Read different translations and compare them.

[00:25:15]And then, you know, if if you're still really worried, again, learn Greek.

[00:25:20]That's the only way to go.

[00:25:21]>> Put your shoulder to the grindstone.

[00:25:22]Take some time. citizens of Reddit, learn Greek, please.

[00:25:26]>> It would be a great place to start if there was some more time there. If people spent a fraction of the time they spend complaining about certain translations to learn it, >> just to learn it themselves. Yes.

[00:25:37]>> And it would also encourage you to maybe not complain so much because it's an extremely hard task to do, especially over something so large, to be how am I going to be accurate and in what way?

[00:25:45]You've got to make a decision. when we look at the decisions that they make in those translations and some of the way that that impacts something like a film adaptation that's working off of translations that have made some decisions away from that original text.

[00:26:00]Are there particular things for you that stand out that you wish films would stop doing or do differently? Scenes that do or don't show up? We haven't seen this movie yet, so we don't know everything that's in it.

[00:26:11]>> Yeah. But are there particular standouts when you think of the way this story is usually discussed that are things like be it the way Tmicus treats the end of things, the way this shows up or doesn't show up that you think are really important for the sense of this story that maybe aren't given the treatment you wish they got for us to really understand the scope? Well, something that stands out to me is in the there's the version that came out in the 90s starring Armand Sante. Um, which is, you know, the special effects are very bad, but um, something that bothers me about that adaptation other than the special effects is that they they cut out Penelopey's bed trick at the end. She just sort of falls into Odysius's arms, which I think is a huge disservice to her character.

[00:26:53]>> So, I mean, I would hope that they would keep that. Um, you know, I would love to see a more scheming Penelope. Um, you know, I think anything that's going to emphasize the sort of family dynamics and family tensions, I think, would be very interesting.

[00:27:09]>> Yeah.

[00:27:09]>> I would I mean, I would also like to see something that emphasizes the this kind of slipperiness of truth and identity that I mentioned that Odysius is, you know, he's he's not he's not the most trustworthy guy, right? And that's part of his appeal is, you know, he he's the hero who schemes and lies and we we know we root for him for that.

[00:27:31]>> Why? Why do do we Yeah. Why do we do they root for him in the same way? Like an ancient audience, does that support feel the same?

[00:27:38]>> Yes. I mean, I think that Well, obviously not everyone in the ancient world cared for Odysius. Uh his his depictions in Athenian tragedy are are pretty negative because they're like, "Well, this guy lies. Obviously, he's a villain." But that's not true in the Odyssey, right? The the Odyssey loves Odysius. So would would would all of the audience members have loved him as well?

[00:27:59]Probably not, right?

[00:28:01]>> But sometimes you love a main character that you hate the most. Like it that can be an effective response to make you hate him.

[00:28:06]>> I think the way he's portrayed, my reading is that the audience is supposed to be like, "Oh, Odysius, there he goes again." Like, why is he lying to his his dad? You know, he he's killed all the suitors. He's reunited with Penelopey.

[00:28:20]He goes to see his dad. Does he say, "Dad, I'm home." No, he pretends to be someone else yet again. Why does he Why?

[00:28:29]>> It becomes like a pathological thing at a certain point.

[00:28:31]>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But he like So he is he's a very complex and like well-drawn character, you know, he's he's not like a shallow arc type.

[00:28:42]>> So which I think is fascinating. Um but I hope that that comes through in the movie. That can be a hard thing to represent, especially when you're condensing to such a small amount of time compared to the scope of a full story.

[00:28:55]>> And I don't know, it feels like we keep getting more simple and simple characters in film depictions of things, more cutting off of this, well, this part might make you dislike them. How do we narrow them into something more simple? If that is the version of Adysius that people have heard before or have seen before or if they've only experienced, have they experienced Adysius in the Odyssey at all?

[00:29:20]>> Well, I mean, if they haven't, again, if they haven't read the Odyssey, [laughter] I don't know >> in the Greek. If you haven't read it in the Greek, you haven't.

[00:29:26]>> No, no, you just have to read it in English or whatever your native language is. Um, yeah. I mean, I It's hard It's hard to say, right? Like if they watch Christopher Nolan's Odyssey, they've seen Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. They haven't read Homer's Odyssey.

[00:29:41]>> Right.

[00:29:41]>> Right. So, and and I can't say, you know, how true to the Odyssey it will be obviously because I haven't seen it. But like we there's room for a multiplicity of adaptations.

[00:29:52]And again, I just encourage people, you know, if you liked this one, check out another one.

[00:29:56]>> You know, read the poem, you know, watch watch another version.

[00:29:59]>> And if you disliked this one, >> if you disliked it. Yeah. If it made you mad, read the poem.

[00:30:04]>> Yeah.

[00:30:05]>> Yeah. If you >> This feels like one of those instances where either you liking it or disliking it should probably encourage you to do the same thing, which is to read it.

[00:30:14]>> Yeah. If you if you care if you care about it, if you care about it, >> if you watch it and you were like, I don't care, probably the poem's not going to do anything for you.

[00:30:22]>> But maybe maybe like it. I don't know.

[00:30:24]It does. It just feels like there's so few sometimes there's movies where you're like, if you hate it, just turn it off. It doesn't matter. Where does this go? It's Zootopia. It's not the end of the world. [laughter] Not that that's a bad movie, but you know, like what's the impact? Versus this one, because as you've talked about it, it has such long roots into so much of what we still consume that if you watch one version and you go, "Oh, well, I don't like this thing."

[00:30:47]>> Well, you do because you like its impact on a bunch of other things. Maybe you don't like this person's version or this small detail about the thing. But unless you dislike basically a lot of what you see, you probably do like more of this than you think.

[00:31:01]>> Or even if you fundamentally hate the Odyssey, I do think it it is beneficial to study because it has been so influential.

[00:31:09]>> And this is coming from Celiana who you don't hate the Odyssey.

[00:31:12]>> I don't. I love your preference though.

[00:31:14]>> But no, but I am an Iliad person.

[00:31:16]>> So you should I mean I just want to put that out. take it with a grain because like this is coming from someone who has a deep preference for the alien.

[00:31:22]>> I I am an idiot supremacist.

[00:31:23]>> Yeah, this [laughter] is such an interesting phrase. Yeah, but the Odyssey I I think for me it's the one that because of the way it ties into all the stuff that we still consume. It just does feel like such a great jumping in point to if you want to get into ancient literature and you feel overwhelmed because there's so much to pick from or some of this feels complicated. This feels like the perfect bridgeway in.

[00:31:47]>> Yes.

[00:31:48]>> Which for good or bad might make it the perfect movie to adapt and bring you in.

[00:31:52]>> I think so. I mean, I think that it like The Iliad obviously has been adapted as Freud the movie. Um, but I I do think the Odyssey is much more accessible to a modern audience because The Iliad is concerned with this ar like ancient code of like heroic moral ethics >> um and like how to be a warrior and a man um that that has nothing to do with our society today. Um, like the Odyssey is about a guy trying to get home to his family >> and it's about, you know, who are you as a person with your family without your family? You know, his son, can his son be a man without his father? You know, his his wife, who is she without her husband? Um, I think these are much more relatable concerns.

[00:32:43]>> Yeah, they're all still themes that we see all of the time. So, if you have been weighing whether you should go see the Odyssey, you can decide for yourself. Uh, but the recommendation from Dr. Warwick is at least go read it.

[00:32:56]Go read it if you're weighing your options. We will put links to a variety of translations down below. You can take your pick of a couple of these. I I'll I'll pull on Seliana Sleep to see if maybe we can get one of those. If you like this, I'll grab it from the video.

[00:33:09]If you like one that's more rigid, if you like one that's more this, you can look at those. Go and read one of them.

[00:33:14]It won't let you down. You will be fascinated one way or another. Celiana, thank you so much for coming to talk through this. I really appreciate it. I always uh enjoy getting to pick your brain about all things Homer. Thank you for your time.

[00:33:26]>> Yes. Thank you for having me.

[00:33:27]>> For everyone watching again, go and go and check that out. Let us know if you have seen the movie. If there's a thing that we missed, obviously we haven't seen it, so that's not our fault. Um we're we are not filming this in Media Rex and jumping back beforehand. So, honest disclaimer, we haven't seen it.

[00:33:41]Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you find us. It helps us. hopefully helps you stay in touch with us. But for this week, for all of us here at Bible and Archaeology, until next time.